Well, maybe not right now, but in say 10 years perhaps. I thought service costs were completely independent of the phone model, at least if you buy the phone outright. I bought my Droid outright and just put my company SIM in it, so I get free calls and data on a nice phone.
It's hardly stealing if people are handing over the money willingly.
On the other hand I am a little annoyed at this. I got fed up of waiting for the original Star Wars on blu-ray and just bought the DVDs last year. The last version I bought was the VHS "Special Edition" with the case that made farty noises when you put the lid back on.
I think this is one of those things where I'll be happy with the DVD for now though. Old live action films aren't usually worth getting on blu-ray. If I were inclined to buy Episodes 1-3 (which I'm not.. well, maybe 3, it was okay), I'd get the blu-rays though.
Indeed, but they do also have fixed buttons with fixed names for more action oriented games. I'm not saying the customisable button area is completely pointles. If games are designed with it in mind like Gaygirlie suggested then I'm sure it could be used in interesting ways. But for PC games where everyone has different hardware, using one of these things is not really going to have any advantages over just using a keyboard or having clickable icons on-screen.
I still like my idea of being able to use your phone for this sort of thing rather than having to buy a customised gadget. If everyone has USB connectible touchscreen phones anyway, and games have support for custom icon panels, then we might as well make use of them. Maybe for example in Fallout instead of pausing the game to look at your PIP boy or whatever it was called, you could just check your real phone. That would be kind of a fun gimmick.
Ouch you're right, I thought it was only about £150 and still thought that was expensive. The mini is $150, that's probably what I was thinking of.
Seems like there is a good opportunity for someone to make Android/iPhone apps to turn phones into programmable keypads for games and other apps. If you've already got a capacitive multitouch screen at your disposal, why not use it?
Yeah I wouldn't want to do all of my gaming on a small screen (though handheld consoles are okay when away on holiday or whatever). I think putting this kind of tech into a laptop is pretty wasteful unless we get nice modular designs where you can re-use the keyboard.
In fact that's just a great idea overall, as having to buy a new screen with each laptop is also pretty wasteful - better to just be able to upgrade the base and attach your own flat panel to the top. The manufacturers would make less money if they did that of course..
Those are the words of someone who is not enjoying life. It's similar to how I thought when I was a Christian actually.
Why doesn't your god kill himself? The universe was (and must still be) a lot of work, and eternal existence must be pretty boring, right?
Have you never enjoyed a day you've spent with friends or reading a good book or something, and thought "I'd like to do this again"?
Work itself is enjoyable in its own way, humans who don't work often get bored and restless. We like to do things, to keep moving. Even boring jobs help us to appreciate our free time more.
It's cliched, but true: you need to learn to take pleasure in the journey and not simply be looking forward to the destination.
How is it that you think God gives meaning to everything, but humans can't give their lives the same kind of meaning? Think how many people think of sports as meaningful, and get a sense of pleasure from it, when in the end it's all just a bunch of stuff that we made up and assign our own meaning to.
How is a god spontaneously existing (or always existing) any more significant than biological life coming into being from nothing? It's all the same in the end. Religious meaning holds no more significance than any other meaning a person may have or create for living.
Saying "I just don't understand why those who believe this life is all there is don't kill themselves", is like saying "I just don't understand why a person whose only means of transport is a beat up old bicycle doesn't just throw it away". It's pretty ludicrous. Why is your eternal life in heaven going to be more meaningful than your current life? Especially considering you won't be you any more, you'll be a you that has no choice to do "right" or "wrong", a you that can no longer feel pain, thereby rendering pleasure pretty meaningless, etc.
This said, I'd love to see a full laptop trying out this concept
It was out a couple of years ago, the Optimus. There's a link in the summary. I don't think it can have been a very big hit, haven't heard much about it since, though I heard loads about it in the years leading up to its release.. and was excited at first, but then lost interest after a year or two. I think it was around £150/$300, so not really impulse buy territory, you'd have to have a seriously good use for it.
I think you're right that the icons on buttons would be useful when it comes to using complicated applications, but considering this specific device is pitched as a gaming concept, I don't think it has any real value for that use. For most games you tend to want immediate speed - you don't want to have to look down at the keys to see what's what.
If it's a game where you don't need to be quick, you might as well just have a normal touch screen instead of separate buttons. Buttons are good because they allow tactile feedback so that you don't actually need to look at what you're pressing and can keep following the action. Also I think having fixed names for each button is very useful for this same purpose.
When I'm at home I'm on my 9 inch netbook (I actually use it at work too, but with a full sized keyboard attached). You can't get much more limited than that while still having a fully blown PC, but I can still touch type on the keyboard.
Of course they'd still be able to develop it, but if they are in the habit of looking at the keys to see where stuff is, they're going to be slower than if they just get used to simply pressing the key they want without looking. Eventually they should get to know the keys (though with some people this is definitely not guaranteed), and then the icons on the keys are nothing more than a frivolity.
Actually, I'd probably find that having the icons always change for each game would just be annoying, because you will have to look down to see the controls instead of the game just saying "press X to do blah". Fixed markings are great for being able to play any game without looking away (especially thinking of console gaming here, since obviously on a full sized keyboard you may want to glance down if you need to quickly press a key very far away from your current hand position - though really you should try to have every button you're using close to your hand unless you're playing a flight sim or something).
I've gone to some trouble trying to work out how to reconcile the idea of goodness with the idea of natural selection. The two ideas are at least partially incompatible as most people conceive of them, but if you try to get rid of one or the other you wind up with different kinds of problems. I'm pretty sure now that the ideas can be reconciled, but some other commonly held assumptions have to be removed first.
I've thought about this too, and I think the answer comes from the fact that natural selection doesn't just work on individuals, it works on whole species. A species will come to dominate, or at least flourish if it can learn to work together. Lion prides, anthills, bee hives, everyone works together for the benefit of the others. It's good to help out your neighbour. With humans and our communication and travel capabilities, virtually everyone is our neighbour these days, and we all work together in an international market, etc. If you take it in a wider context and look at ecosystems you see that a lot of species, plants and animals, rely on each other for continued survival, so being good to more than just humans also makes sense. I suppose a lot of mammals seem to have some capability for empathy too, which may have developed for similar reasons. I belief empathy is a good basis for good acts, though apparently Freud disagrees. I don't see why anyone would have any reason to do good for other unless it's for selfish self benefit, or because of feelings of empathy. Why would you help someone who was in pain if you couldn't understand or recognise what pain was, and that it was a bad thing? There would be no motivation to do so.
I'm also with you that truth is more important than happiness. I'd rather suffer than be pleasantly deluded. For me there have been periods of shock after seeing through a lie, where what's left seems relatively stark and empty. But later I've discovered new things that are better than what I could have found before throwing out the old half-truths. So I think that killing one's personal god tends to pay off in the long run, if a person is honest and sticks with it.
Self delusion is not disappointment, it is allowing yourself to be deluded by not considering your beliefs in any depth. You could also say that anyone who believes a lie is in self delusion, but I'm sure we all have some false assumptions somewhere.
I think wonder brings us things like science and art just as much as religion. You can still find something wonderful even if you understand it. It's when you just wonder and say "what kind of magic is this?" and make up a droll story without actually being interested enough to investigate or think things through properly - that is the basis of superstitions and logically most if not all religion.
The bare assertions of my second paragraph are just basics of psychology, and some sarcasm:P
You can't really consciously choose not to think, so I don't think it matters whether you believe you will continue to think or not. You either will, or you won't. This thread should stay active for around a week by the way.
Who has time to look at their keyboard and decipher icons when gaming? Once you've got the basic keys down you rarely need to look down, and the letter keys are just as useful for finding your bearings when you do. I used to really want an Optimus just because it is such a cool gadget, but now I don't actually care.
It might help slightly for learning shortcuts in stuff like design applications and games, but I'd like to see some research. I think it maybe would actually just act as a hindrance as people come to rely on looking for the icons rather than their muscle memory and spacial awareness.
If I always have a reference available, it stops me from trying to remember things as I would if I didn't have the reference (where I'd probably recourse to trial and error, which would reinforce my memory of what's right and what's wrong). Examples of such things that I tend to still look up these days being the syntax of lesser used control structures, string processing commands and regexp stuff in PERL. If I couldn't Google for this stuff I'd have memorised it by now.
In terms of sin I knew I needed to improve - in terms of being a person, compared to other people who never think about sin, I knew I was better. I'm sure Paul actually says something similar about being a Pharisee, he knows he was the "best" outwardly speaking, despite the inner sin. I'm not talking about a relationship between myself and god here, I'm just talking about me from a human standpoint. I understand what you're saying, but I just think differently to that now. Now I feel I need to improve as a person, but definitely not when it comes to any such concept as "sin", as I don't believe morality is especially objective.
I could ask the very same question of a Christian. I find it absurd that Christians should ever have children for example. I know that in Genesis, God orders Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply, but all that is doing is to create more souls and more opportunities for people to go to hell, or at least experience a life of pain and separation from God. It seems very unkind to me. Likewise if this world is just a test to see whether you will accept God, and try to get everyone else to accept God too, I don't see the point. I don't see much more point to life without God, but that's not the point. Why kill yourself rather than just continue to enjoy the life you have? Why should your spiritual life be more important than what you are actually experiencing now? And considering all the false religions out there, do you think all other religious people should just kill themselves? If it's all we have, we need to just take it and enjoy it while it lasts. Maybe there is some existence afterwards - personally I doubt it though. If our consciousness can coalesce from apparently nothing, why shouldn't we go back to nothing? Also a big one for me to not commit suicide was that I don't want to put my family through any more pain that it's already gone through with my dad dying. I can still empathise and have feelings even if I know everything has no objective meaning.
Indeed, it's really hard to get a balance. I know that there are individual elements of Christianity and probably other religions that are good to learn from even if I think the whole thing is based on falsehoods, but there's still part of me that instinctively is repelled from the idea of studying any religion after the rage I experienced over all the billions of people who have been taken in wholesale by false religion.
So it is not Satan that makes mankind evil, but God?
This is the nail on the head for what made me realise the bible was a joke. Don't forget that God made Satan too.
Despite apparently already being perfect and in perfect communion relationship with all 3 of his parts, he felt he needed to create billions of things to worship him. I'd say he has more issues than just a split personality/being.
I guess I worded that wrongly. I don't think about things like sin existing any more, so I was just talking from my current secular perspective. I definitely did believe I was sinful back then, in my own thoughts, but in my everyday interactions with other people I'd thought of myself, (and other people thought of me, and still do) as a "nice guy". There are plenty of Christians, and non-Christians who treat others well. Everyone has their breaking point perhaps. I found mine, and I wasn't proud of it.
That probably was a catalyst that allowed me to take my doubts at the time more seriously (obviously all Christians go through periods of doubt, and I'd had a few, but always felt I came out of them stronger), really seriously. Most Christians don't actually take their doubts seriously. They get some difficult questions, get a little bit scared, but then manage to twist their beliefs so that everything makes sense again. Not many actually seriously consider that the scary thing might actually be correct. They assume it can't be correct. You can't simply convince someone that god isn't there if they have been brought up to believe that he is. They have to be in the right frame of mind to be able to take it seriously.
Of course working from the more sensible point of view of "don't assume anything is 100% true until it has been proven so", nobody would believe in god any more than they believe that the world is composed of 4 elements.
I said "coincidentally", maybe you should look up what that means. I may have changed anyway even if I'd stayed religious, but we'll never know.
I know they're not mutually exclusive, but consider one thing: when you blame a lot of the wrong in your life on your inherently sinful or the work of the devil, or are always wondering what is a test from god and what isn't, it makes it harder to see your own failings as your actual responsibility. That is how I ended up thinking while I was starting to go through what were obviously the most serious doubts I'd ever had during my 10 years of believing in Jesus as my saviour and all that. I realised I couldn't take seriously the idea that we would be responsible for sin when it's basically god that knowingly created the entire concept of it. Sin is basically anything god doesn't like. It's completely arbitrary and god punishes those who don't do what he likes, even though he created them that way. Yeah, that makes so much sense.
What you are basically saying is, god doesn't change people, people change people. I entirely agree.
1. It is difficult if previously you believed the meaning of life was found in religion, yes. I did find it *very* hard for the first couple of years. Now I've just kind of come to accept it. Even when I was religious I started to see the whole thing as kind of meaningless too. The idea of this world being a test and the next being bliss. Why not give everyone bliss? Why create any souls at all if god is is perfect communion with himself already? This kind of thing, probably shouldn't get into it.
2. Possibly.
3. Again perhaps. For the last year or so I've come to find enjoyment in simply being alive though. I started try to get properly fit around the time I lost religion, as I see my body as the only thing I have now (before I was quite happy with having an eternal soul), and now I take great pleasure in Parkour and movement in general. It sounds silly, but it really is quite satisfying, in the same way that a dog loves to run around a field/beach, or stick its head out of a car window. You just have to learn to enjoy the journey rather than always worrying about the destination (which I do still find kind of depressing).
Many people consider Parkour irrational, so that works;)
What if someone knows they're going to die? Why would they think they're going to have a next thought?
I've always taken my beliefs seriously, and I wouldn't call that the capstone of my life, I'd call that the foundation. Of anyone's life. Everyone has beliefs, it just so happens that my beliefs are not based on religion now, and I believe that it's better not to base your life on things that are patently superstitions. I can't willingly accept a lie even if I knew that believing that lie would make me happy. If I thought that way I'd just get it over with by becoming a drug addict, and eventually dying of an overdose. Hey, if it I'm happy during the process then it's all good!
So basically all the stuff about god continually sanctifying people is BS and they have to do everything themselves? It's not that I thought I was great or perfect or anything, and I certainly wasn't doing "what I wanted to do". I did start questioning the point of things like prayer etc though. The idea that you only get what you pray for if god wanted you to have it anyway, so what is the point of praying, and those kinds of thoughts. That is why I ended up so nihilistic about everything, also the fact I was depressed for several years would have helped. But to claim that I didn't understand the stuff you are talking about is a bit much. I'd say more that I started seeing everything for what it was. Reading your bible every day (which I did for around 10 years or more) and praying every day (which I also did, but it started to wane with the depression), going to church and socialising mostly with Christians etc are great ways to keep reinforcing your beliefs.
A lot of Christians never seriously challenge what they believe. Even if they do kind of challenge themselves, they do it from the point of view of "god definitely exists, so how can I make this fit to that", rather than looking at things from "okay, the bible has to prove to me here that it's right, rather than me just 'accepting on faith'" type thing.
You're right that it's very hard to reason with someone once their beliefs are set. I am still trying to be open minded to things in life, but seriously - if you looked at many other popular religions you would say within a few minutes "that's dumb, that can't possibly be true, because [x]". But with their own religions, people don't have that clarity - if anything seems obviously wrong, they will think about it and change many little beliefs they have until they no longer clash with their big belief. Changing big beliefs is HARD and very, very scary. Imagine worrying that the last 20 years of your life has in essence been based on a lie. It's not easy. It's not like I wanted that to be true (at first - eventually I just accepted it and now I'm glad I did), I just had to consider the possibility that it was and take my own doubts seriously.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with you there. I've always thought eastern philosophies were quite cool and interesting, though I'm still obviously pretty cynical about any claims of spirituality. Using some form of spirituality as a way of better understanding or visualising our own bodies and natures is fine, but it's the untestable superstitions that make me wary, even if they might seem fun or attractive.
For example, I enjoy yoga from a physical mastery and health benefits perspective, but some yoga places take the spiritual side of it way too seriously for my liking, so I haven't ever joined a club or anything.
I have a problem with science fanatics making blanket statements like this. Where is your evidence? Where is your proof?
Well, with the way a lot of religions are, the rules basically say that only the god(s) of said religion are the real one, and that other religions are false. They can't all be right. Therefore a lot of these religions are based on human delusion and wishful thinking, confirmation bias etc. Even if one or more religions is "real", or is more about a lifestyle than a god or whatever, the rest are all delusion and fantasy.
I agree with your sentiment, but when I make blanket statements I do generally mean them, and have reasons for them. I write enough as it is without explaining everything I say in detail.
Around the time I was doubting I realised I wouldn't worship the god of the bible even if he was real (and up until then I'd always tried to believe it, read the whole thing a couple of times, and I'd say it was mostly history, with a bit of poetry and philosophy thrown in there).
I can't take seriously the idea of someone punishing people for something he has pretty much directly caused them to do. God could set exactly how likely people are to believe in him or sin or anything like that, if the bible is correct and he is all knowing and all powerful, etc, then he would be directly responsible for the exact ratio of people who go to heaven/hell.
Thinking about things like that, and all the people who would never even learn about Christianity, made me realise that any religion which claims to punish all non believers is either man made, or has a fairly sadistic god that I wouldn't want to worship anyway.
My lifestyle is still pretty similar to how it was when I was a Christian, and I generally like Christian people (though I tried going out with one since and the difference in beliefs did end up grating). I can see the positive side of even modern religion, but I think overall the negatives outweigh the positives.
Self improvement for me came when I accepted that I needed to improve. Before, I always thought that I was a good person and didn't need to try harder. Coincidentally my realisation of a need for self improvement also coincided with me losing my religion.
I chose to accept truth and pain over just pretending that I was being watched over by some all powerful being. There is something to be said for being happy, but I can't bring myself to sacrifice truth for happiness, otherwise I'd probably still be religious.
You also appear to have not noticed the basic element of human nature that causes us to split into groups and have an "us vs them" mentality, which means that there will be vehement disagreements and wars between groups of people in the future anyway, no matter what people believe happened in the past. The best way to reduce this kind of thing is from learning and communication, not ignorance. Even things like having sports teams to love and hate instead of making a big deal of nationality are good things I suppose. They keep the dumb people distracted with shiny things so they have less time to hate other kinds of "different".
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Might be a bit expensive though.
Well, maybe not right now, but in say 10 years perhaps. I thought service costs were completely independent of the phone model, at least if you buy the phone outright. I bought my Droid outright and just put my company SIM in it, so I get free calls and data on a nice phone.
It's hardly stealing if people are handing over the money willingly.
On the other hand I am a little annoyed at this. I got fed up of waiting for the original Star Wars on blu-ray and just bought the DVDs last year. The last version I bought was the VHS "Special Edition" with the case that made farty noises when you put the lid back on.
I think this is one of those things where I'll be happy with the DVD for now though. Old live action films aren't usually worth getting on blu-ray. If I were inclined to buy Episodes 1-3 (which I'm not.. well, maybe 3, it was okay), I'd get the blu-rays though.
Indeed, but they do also have fixed buttons with fixed names for more action oriented games. I'm not saying the customisable button area is completely pointles. If games are designed with it in mind like Gaygirlie suggested then I'm sure it could be used in interesting ways. But for PC games where everyone has different hardware, using one of these things is not really going to have any advantages over just using a keyboard or having clickable icons on-screen.
I still like my idea of being able to use your phone for this sort of thing rather than having to buy a customised gadget. If everyone has USB connectible touchscreen phones anyway, and games have support for custom icon panels, then we might as well make use of them. Maybe for example in Fallout instead of pausing the game to look at your PIP boy or whatever it was called, you could just check your real phone. That would be kind of a fun gimmick.
Ouch you're right, I thought it was only about £150 and still thought that was expensive. The mini is $150, that's probably what I was thinking of.
Seems like there is a good opportunity for someone to make Android/iPhone apps to turn phones into programmable keypads for games and other apps. If you've already got a capacitive multitouch screen at your disposal, why not use it?
Yeah I wouldn't want to do all of my gaming on a small screen (though handheld consoles are okay when away on holiday or whatever). I think putting this kind of tech into a laptop is pretty wasteful unless we get nice modular designs where you can re-use the keyboard.
In fact that's just a great idea overall, as having to buy a new screen with each laptop is also pretty wasteful - better to just be able to upgrade the base and attach your own flat panel to the top. The manufacturers would make less money if they did that of course..
Those are the words of someone who is not enjoying life. It's similar to how I thought when I was a Christian actually.
Why doesn't your god kill himself? The universe was (and must still be) a lot of work, and eternal existence must be pretty boring, right?
Have you never enjoyed a day you've spent with friends or reading a good book or something, and thought "I'd like to do this again"?
Work itself is enjoyable in its own way, humans who don't work often get bored and restless. We like to do things, to keep moving. Even boring jobs help us to appreciate our free time more.
It's cliched, but true: you need to learn to take pleasure in the journey and not simply be looking forward to the destination.
How is it that you think God gives meaning to everything, but humans can't give their lives the same kind of meaning? Think how many people think of sports as meaningful, and get a sense of pleasure from it, when in the end it's all just a bunch of stuff that we made up and assign our own meaning to.
How is a god spontaneously existing (or always existing) any more significant than biological life coming into being from nothing? It's all the same in the end. Religious meaning holds no more significance than any other meaning a person may have or create for living.
Saying "I just don't understand why those who believe this life is all there is don't kill themselves", is like saying "I just don't understand why a person whose only means of transport is a beat up old bicycle doesn't just throw it away". It's pretty ludicrous. Why is your eternal life in heaven going to be more meaningful than your current life? Especially considering you won't be you any more, you'll be a you that has no choice to do "right" or "wrong", a you that can no longer feel pain, thereby rendering pleasure pretty meaningless, etc.
This said, I'd love to see a full laptop trying out this concept
It was out a couple of years ago, the Optimus. There's a link in the summary. I don't think it can have been a very big hit, haven't heard much about it since, though I heard loads about it in the years leading up to its release.. and was excited at first, but then lost interest after a year or two. I think it was around £150/$300, so not really impulse buy territory, you'd have to have a seriously good use for it.
I think you're right that the icons on buttons would be useful when it comes to using complicated applications, but considering this specific device is pitched as a gaming concept, I don't think it has any real value for that use. For most games you tend to want immediate speed - you don't want to have to look down at the keys to see what's what.
If it's a game where you don't need to be quick, you might as well just have a normal touch screen instead of separate buttons. Buttons are good because they allow tactile feedback so that you don't actually need to look at what you're pressing and can keep following the action. Also I think having fixed names for each button is very useful for this same purpose.
When I'm at home I'm on my 9 inch netbook (I actually use it at work too, but with a full sized keyboard attached). You can't get much more limited than that while still having a fully blown PC, but I can still touch type on the keyboard.
Of course they'd still be able to develop it, but if they are in the habit of looking at the keys to see where stuff is, they're going to be slower than if they just get used to simply pressing the key they want without looking. Eventually they should get to know the keys (though with some people this is definitely not guaranteed), and then the icons on the keys are nothing more than a frivolity.
Actually, I'd probably find that having the icons always change for each game would just be annoying, because you will have to look down to see the controls instead of the game just saying "press X to do blah". Fixed markings are great for being able to play any game without looking away (especially thinking of console gaming here, since obviously on a full sized keyboard you may want to glance down if you need to quickly press a key very far away from your current hand position - though really you should try to have every button you're using close to your hand unless you're playing a flight sim or something).
I've gone to some trouble trying to work out how to reconcile the idea of goodness with the idea of natural selection. The two ideas are at least partially incompatible as most people conceive of them, but if you try to get rid of one or the other you wind up with different kinds of problems. I'm pretty sure now that the ideas can be reconciled, but some other commonly held assumptions have to be removed first.
I've thought about this too, and I think the answer comes from the fact that natural selection doesn't just work on individuals, it works on whole species. A species will come to dominate, or at least flourish if it can learn to work together. Lion prides, anthills, bee hives, everyone works together for the benefit of the others. It's good to help out your neighbour. With humans and our communication and travel capabilities, virtually everyone is our neighbour these days, and we all work together in an international market, etc. If you take it in a wider context and look at ecosystems you see that a lot of species, plants and animals, rely on each other for continued survival, so being good to more than just humans also makes sense. I suppose a lot of mammals seem to have some capability for empathy too, which may have developed for similar reasons. I belief empathy is a good basis for good acts, though apparently Freud disagrees. I don't see why anyone would have any reason to do good for other unless it's for selfish self benefit, or because of feelings of empathy. Why would you help someone who was in pain if you couldn't understand or recognise what pain was, and that it was a bad thing? There would be no motivation to do so.
I'm also with you that truth is more important than happiness. I'd rather suffer than be pleasantly deluded. For me there have been periods of shock after seeing through a lie, where what's left seems relatively stark and empty. But later I've discovered new things that are better than what I could have found before throwing out the old half-truths. So I think that killing one's personal god tends to pay off in the long run, if a person is honest and sticks with it.
Thanks, that's pretty encouraging.
Self delusion is not disappointment, it is allowing yourself to be deluded by not considering your beliefs in any depth. You could also say that anyone who believes a lie is in self delusion, but I'm sure we all have some false assumptions somewhere.
I think wonder brings us things like science and art just as much as religion. You can still find something wonderful even if you understand it. It's when you just wonder and say "what kind of magic is this?" and make up a droll story without actually being interested enough to investigate or think things through properly - that is the basis of superstitions and logically most if not all religion.
The bare assertions of my second paragraph are just basics of psychology, and some sarcasm :P
You can't really consciously choose not to think, so I don't think it matters whether you believe you will continue to think or not. You either will, or you won't. This thread should stay active for around a week by the way.
Who has time to look at their keyboard and decipher icons when gaming? Once you've got the basic keys down you rarely need to look down, and the letter keys are just as useful for finding your bearings when you do. I used to really want an Optimus just because it is such a cool gadget, but now I don't actually care.
It might help slightly for learning shortcuts in stuff like design applications and games, but I'd like to see some research. I think it maybe would actually just act as a hindrance as people come to rely on looking for the icons rather than their muscle memory and spacial awareness.
If I always have a reference available, it stops me from trying to remember things as I would if I didn't have the reference (where I'd probably recourse to trial and error, which would reinforce my memory of what's right and what's wrong). Examples of such things that I tend to still look up these days being the syntax of lesser used control structures, string processing commands and regexp stuff in PERL. If I couldn't Google for this stuff I'd have memorised it by now.
In terms of sin I knew I needed to improve - in terms of being a person, compared to other people who never think about sin, I knew I was better. I'm sure Paul actually says something similar about being a Pharisee, he knows he was the "best" outwardly speaking, despite the inner sin. I'm not talking about a relationship between myself and god here, I'm just talking about me from a human standpoint. I understand what you're saying, but I just think differently to that now. Now I feel I need to improve as a person, but definitely not when it comes to any such concept as "sin", as I don't believe morality is especially objective.
I could ask the very same question of a Christian. I find it absurd that Christians should ever have children for example. I know that in Genesis, God orders Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply, but all that is doing is to create more souls and more opportunities for people to go to hell, or at least experience a life of pain and separation from God. It seems very unkind to me. Likewise if this world is just a test to see whether you will accept God, and try to get everyone else to accept God too, I don't see the point. I don't see much more point to life without God, but that's not the point. Why kill yourself rather than just continue to enjoy the life you have? Why should your spiritual life be more important than what you are actually experiencing now? And considering all the false religions out there, do you think all other religious people should just kill themselves? If it's all we have, we need to just take it and enjoy it while it lasts. Maybe there is some existence afterwards - personally I doubt it though. If our consciousness can coalesce from apparently nothing, why shouldn't we go back to nothing? Also a big one for me to not commit suicide was that I don't want to put my family through any more pain that it's already gone through with my dad dying. I can still empathise and have feelings even if I know everything has no objective meaning.
Indeed, it's really hard to get a balance. I know that there are individual elements of Christianity and probably other religions that are good to learn from even if I think the whole thing is based on falsehoods, but there's still part of me that instinctively is repelled from the idea of studying any religion after the rage I experienced over all the billions of people who have been taken in wholesale by false religion.
So it is not Satan that makes mankind evil, but God?
This is the nail on the head for what made me realise the bible was a joke. Don't forget that God made Satan too.
Despite apparently already being perfect and in perfect communion relationship with all 3 of his parts, he felt he needed to create billions of things to worship him. I'd say he has more issues than just a split personality/being.
I guess I worded that wrongly. I don't think about things like sin existing any more, so I was just talking from my current secular perspective. I definitely did believe I was sinful back then, in my own thoughts, but in my everyday interactions with other people I'd thought of myself, (and other people thought of me, and still do) as a "nice guy". There are plenty of Christians, and non-Christians who treat others well. Everyone has their breaking point perhaps. I found mine, and I wasn't proud of it.
That probably was a catalyst that allowed me to take my doubts at the time more seriously (obviously all Christians go through periods of doubt, and I'd had a few, but always felt I came out of them stronger), really seriously. Most Christians don't actually take their doubts seriously. They get some difficult questions, get a little bit scared, but then manage to twist their beliefs so that everything makes sense again. Not many actually seriously consider that the scary thing might actually be correct. They assume it can't be correct. You can't simply convince someone that god isn't there if they have been brought up to believe that he is. They have to be in the right frame of mind to be able to take it seriously.
Of course working from the more sensible point of view of "don't assume anything is 100% true until it has been proven so", nobody would believe in god any more than they believe that the world is composed of 4 elements.
I said "coincidentally", maybe you should look up what that means. I may have changed anyway even if I'd stayed religious, but we'll never know.
I know they're not mutually exclusive, but consider one thing: when you blame a lot of the wrong in your life on your inherently sinful or the work of the devil, or are always wondering what is a test from god and what isn't, it makes it harder to see your own failings as your actual responsibility. That is how I ended up thinking while I was starting to go through what were obviously the most serious doubts I'd ever had during my 10 years of believing in Jesus as my saviour and all that. I realised I couldn't take seriously the idea that we would be responsible for sin when it's basically god that knowingly created the entire concept of it. Sin is basically anything god doesn't like. It's completely arbitrary and god punishes those who don't do what he likes, even though he created them that way. Yeah, that makes so much sense.
What you are basically saying is, god doesn't change people, people change people. I entirely agree.
1. It is difficult if previously you believed the meaning of life was found in religion, yes. I did find it *very* hard for the first couple of years. Now I've just kind of come to accept it. Even when I was religious I started to see the whole thing as kind of meaningless too. The idea of this world being a test and the next being bliss. Why not give everyone bliss? Why create any souls at all if god is is perfect communion with himself already? This kind of thing, probably shouldn't get into it.
2. Possibly.
3. Again perhaps. For the last year or so I've come to find enjoyment in simply being alive though. I started try to get properly fit around the time I lost religion, as I see my body as the only thing I have now (before I was quite happy with having an eternal soul), and now I take great pleasure in Parkour and movement in general. It sounds silly, but it really is quite satisfying, in the same way that a dog loves to run around a field/beach, or stick its head out of a car window. You just have to learn to enjoy the journey rather than always worrying about the destination (which I do still find kind of depressing).
Many people consider Parkour irrational, so that works ;)
What if someone knows they're going to die? Why would they think they're going to have a next thought?
I've always taken my beliefs seriously, and I wouldn't call that the capstone of my life, I'd call that the foundation. Of anyone's life. Everyone has beliefs, it just so happens that my beliefs are not based on religion now, and I believe that it's better not to base your life on things that are patently superstitions. I can't willingly accept a lie even if I knew that believing that lie would make me happy. If I thought that way I'd just get it over with by becoming a drug addict, and eventually dying of an overdose. Hey, if it I'm happy during the process then it's all good!
So basically all the stuff about god continually sanctifying people is BS and they have to do everything themselves? It's not that I thought I was great or perfect or anything, and I certainly wasn't doing "what I wanted to do". I did start questioning the point of things like prayer etc though. The idea that you only get what you pray for if god wanted you to have it anyway, so what is the point of praying, and those kinds of thoughts. That is why I ended up so nihilistic about everything, also the fact I was depressed for several years would have helped. But to claim that I didn't understand the stuff you are talking about is a bit much. I'd say more that I started seeing everything for what it was. Reading your bible every day (which I did for around 10 years or more) and praying every day (which I also did, but it started to wane with the depression), going to church and socialising mostly with Christians etc are great ways to keep reinforcing your beliefs.
A lot of Christians never seriously challenge what they believe. Even if they do kind of challenge themselves, they do it from the point of view of "god definitely exists, so how can I make this fit to that", rather than looking at things from "okay, the bible has to prove to me here that it's right, rather than me just 'accepting on faith'" type thing.
You're right that it's very hard to reason with someone once their beliefs are set. I am still trying to be open minded to things in life, but seriously - if you looked at many other popular religions you would say within a few minutes "that's dumb, that can't possibly be true, because [x]". But with their own religions, people don't have that clarity - if anything seems obviously wrong, they will think about it and change many little beliefs they have until they no longer clash with their big belief. Changing big beliefs is HARD and very, very scary. Imagine worrying that the last 20 years of your life has in essence been based on a lie. It's not easy. It's not like I wanted that to be true (at first - eventually I just accepted it and now I'm glad I did), I just had to consider the possibility that it was and take my own doubts seriously.
Yeah, I pretty much agree with you there. I've always thought eastern philosophies were quite cool and interesting, though I'm still obviously pretty cynical about any claims of spirituality. Using some form of spirituality as a way of better understanding or visualising our own bodies and natures is fine, but it's the untestable superstitions that make me wary, even if they might seem fun or attractive.
For example, I enjoy yoga from a physical mastery and health benefits perspective, but some yoga places take the spiritual side of it way too seriously for my liking, so I haven't ever joined a club or anything.
I have a problem with science fanatics making blanket statements like this. Where is your evidence? Where is your proof?
Well, with the way a lot of religions are, the rules basically say that only the god(s) of said religion are the real one, and that other religions are false. They can't all be right. Therefore a lot of these religions are based on human delusion and wishful thinking, confirmation bias etc. Even if one or more religions is "real", or is more about a lifestyle than a god or whatever, the rest are all delusion and fantasy.
I agree with your sentiment, but when I make blanket statements I do generally mean them, and have reasons for them. I write enough as it is without explaining everything I say in detail.
Around the time I was doubting I realised I wouldn't worship the god of the bible even if he was real (and up until then I'd always tried to believe it, read the whole thing a couple of times, and I'd say it was mostly history, with a bit of poetry and philosophy thrown in there).
I can't take seriously the idea of someone punishing people for something he has pretty much directly caused them to do. God could set exactly how likely people are to believe in him or sin or anything like that, if the bible is correct and he is all knowing and all powerful, etc, then he would be directly responsible for the exact ratio of people who go to heaven/hell.
Thinking about things like that, and all the people who would never even learn about Christianity, made me realise that any religion which claims to punish all non believers is either man made, or has a fairly sadistic god that I wouldn't want to worship anyway.
My lifestyle is still pretty similar to how it was when I was a Christian, and I generally like Christian people (though I tried going out with one since and the difference in beliefs did end up grating). I can see the positive side of even modern religion, but I think overall the negatives outweigh the positives.
No, self delusion is what brings us religion.
Self improvement for me came when I accepted that I needed to improve. Before, I always thought that I was a good person and didn't need to try harder. Coincidentally my realisation of a need for self improvement also coincided with me losing my religion.
I chose to accept truth and pain over just pretending that I was being watched over by some all powerful being. There is something to be said for being happy, but I can't bring myself to sacrifice truth for happiness, otherwise I'd probably still be religious.
You also appear to have not noticed the basic element of human nature that causes us to split into groups and have an "us vs them" mentality, which means that there will be vehement disagreements and wars between groups of people in the future anyway, no matter what people believe happened in the past. The best way to reduce this kind of thing is from learning and communication, not ignorance. Even things like having sports teams to love and hate instead of making a big deal of nationality are good things I suppose. They keep the dumb people distracted with shiny things so they have less time to hate other kinds of "different".