Transit is what you get when you accept packets at one end of your network and pass them through the other. Verizon's customers are endpoints on Verizon's network, making them part of Verizon's network for the purpose of determining who is selling transit and who is buying. Level 3, on the other hand, is accepting packets at one end and passing them out the other end, which is transit, which is what Level 3 provides to Verizon, not the other way around.
You know the Instagram app could do the image compression client-side, right? This would help there, as well, without costing Facebook a single extra CPU cycle.
Oh, no, I fully understood all the comments before yours, which were referring to Google finding vulnerabilities, but possibly *not* reporting on NSA-planted vulnerabilities. Those comments provided the context under which I interpreted your comment to be referring to the exclusive right to report on found vulnerabilities. Apparently, your comment was made out of context so, of course, the context in which it was taken was also incorrect.
That said, it's still not an exclusive right, as implied by the comment to which you were replying:
Even if they don't point out the vulnerabilities that the NSA use, they will point out vulnerabilities that the Russians or Chinese might use, and that's already better than nothing.
Unless Russia and China became part of the US and I just never heard about it.
It's not an exclusive right; what's stopping you, or anyone else, from doing the same thing, so you can be sure you're finding *all* the vulnerabilities?
Agreed! This is actually the first thing I tried to do in the developer preview, after having watched people interacting with the touch interface. I can see how they can *think* it would be less intuitive; I mean, how do you do 2- and 3-finger gestures with a single mouse cursor? But, then, how does a one-fingered man do them at all? He can still, at least, open apps, click buttons, and move stuff around, though. Yes, a single finger and the mouse cursor should behave identically; hell, make right-click behave like a 2-finger gesture (making a 2-finger tap or sequence of taps register as a right-click or sequence thereof) and do the same for middle-clicks, for users with a clickable scroll-wheel or a 3rd button.
I'm sure my lack of degree in UX design has me missing something important, here, but I can't see how this would degrade the interface *at all*, other than maybe forcing MS to reassign 2- and 3-finger taps to different functions than they currently have. I'm not sure that would be a bad thing, especially if the interface becomes more intuitive in the process.
So, because one of my examples is, in your eyes, invalid, despite all of my valid examples, my entire point is invalidated? By that logic, your use of an invalid (by way of disagreeing with itself) source invalidates your entire point and we should both shut up.
Show me the cost of paying somebody to upgrade your iOS device for you.
Falls under the Tablet Setup category if we're talking about iPads, or Device Setup if iPod or iPhone, since you want to nag about iDevices.. $29.99 and up, in either case.
It's been fun, but arguing with the same troll all night has gotten to be quite boring by now, so I'm going to go back to spending time with my wife now that I've cleared that up.
So, you've come around to agree with my initial position. Clearly, you disagreed at the onset of this debate, or there would have been no debate; my position has not changed.
Then what are you arguing? I never argued the 87% number that you posted, but that a statistically-significant number of those devices were upgraded by 3rd parties. Since the hard numbers for that simply do not exist, some extrapolation does need to be done to reach a reasonable conclusion. If you can explain how my conclusion, that enough people need help with their devices (and hell, we'll limit it specifically to upgrading their iOS devices, because what the hell, why not?) that it is profitable to train people to provide and market the service, is unreasonable, please do so. Furthermore, if you can explain how the way I arrived at that conclusion (that services exist just for this purpose, and that those services are, quite obviously, profitable) is unreasonable, I'm open to that, as well.
That said, I'm pretty sure you did, in fact, assert that iOS users upgrade their own devices, the the point of there not being a statistically significant subset of iOS users who do not. Ahh, yes, right here, where you say
those who aren't capable of updating are the extreme minority.
And, as I've stated previously, an example is not a limitation, it's an example. Other examples exist, in posts farther up the thread, to illustrate this.
Ahh yes, I read the whole page. There is actually a 3rd set of numbers on that page; and no two sets agree. Those are sure some strong and reliable numbers. Do you see now, perhaps, why I'm questioning them? That said, I'd be willing to concede that first-day upgrades were, most likely, done by the device owner.
You wrote about such anecdotal evidence here [slashdot.org], or was that just an irrelevant piece of padding for your post?
Where, in that post, do I say that these users aren't taking steps to maintain their (in this case) websites? Simply put, I don't; I do, however, recount an event that has become recurrent enough so as to be a pattern, therefore a statistic (I'd have to active count each interaction to generate a hard number from the data, but it is a statistic, nonetheless) and not simply anecdotal.
I don't believe there are any spambots or botnets run on iOS devices, could you provide evidence of such things please?
That isn't the claim I made you limited this to iOS devices, while I provided iPads and Android devices as examples; I also listed cars, guns, microwaves, and televisions in an post predating the iPad and Android post, which should have made it clear that I was not limiting the scope. And certainly, even if I were limiting the scope, I did not limit it to iOS devices. Again, that was your doing. As a secondary point, there is evidence out there of malware in the iOS store, but, due to the limitations Apple places on what you can do with an app once you've downloaded it, there's really no way you can audit to prove otherwise. I'll leave you to do your own research and draw your own conclusions, since it's clear that I won't be swaying your opinion. For the record, I love my iPad and MacBook Pro.
Then why did you make the assertion? I'm questioning your assertion so I'd be happy to hear evidence supporting your argument but you have none.
Likewise and likewise. You have an assertion, that 87% of iOS device users upgraded their own devices; business logic and the fact that GeekSquad and the like offer such upgrading services, at a cost, would seem to indicate otherwise. I'm in full agreement with the numbers you have posted; I only disagree with your interpretation of those numbers, and for good reason.
You know... I responded to this post hastily and incorrectly. Let me re-roll, if you will.
the numbers prove that the vast majority of people are indeed upgrading.
The numbers do, indeed, show that the vast majority of iOS devices currently run iOS7. What the number do not show is which of those devices whipped with iOS7 and which were upgraded; they also do not show, of the devices that have been upgraded, which were upgraded by their users and which were upgraded by a 3rd party. Also, day 1 adoption was 18.2%, it's right there, clear as day in the chart in the article you provided; the chart is a comparison of iOS6 and iOS7 first-day adoption rates and the second line on the chart is iOS6.
Please, take a moment to understand what the statistics you plan to use in an argument mean before using them. Sure, your debates will be much less entertaining for everyone else involved, but you'll be able to form strong and coherent arguments that actually support your position. And, honestly, I miss a good solid debate.
Also... when did this discussion become just about iOS devices? That was your artificial contribution to this conversation, was it not? And still, even when you skew the conversation toward your own position, all you can do is point to numbers that show... well, nothing, really, since *anyone* with physical access to the device and the owner's permission can upgrade it. Also, this guy gets it.
Ahh yes, people who call tech support are, in fact, exercising one of the three options I initially provided. Wherein did I say they were not? There is also, clearly, a large subset who do not, or botnets, spambots, and the like would be much less prevalent than they are. I don't have hard numbers on this, but then, really, neither do you, because, as I stated before, your sources do not (and can not) indicate how many of those 87% of iOS devices were upgraded by their users, how many by family or friends of those users, and how many were upgraded by GeekSquad and the like. And the latter two were statistically insignificant, you can bet GekSquad and the like wouldn't bother spending the marketing and training dollars on the service; but they do.
Want hard numbers on that? Go talk to someone at Best buy; that's not my field.
Ahh, I think I see where our disconnect is. Did I say I extrapolated anything to cover the broader populace, or did you do some extrapolation of your own? Let's reconcile our differences over a nice quote, why don't we?
There are a nontrivial number of people out there who want to use a computer, but don't want the complexity of a computer, so they opt for a tablet. A large subset of those people seriously can not come to terms with anything "computery" and, for them, it doesn't matter how simple and clear the instructions in a dialog are, they freak out because it popped up in the first place and call someone who "knows these things" to come read it to them.
Now, let's analyze, shall we? There are a nontrivial number of people, that is to say more than a handful, in fact, a statistically significant, but not necessarily large number, of people; the rest of that sentence stands well enough in its own, I think, so...Moving on. A large subset of those people, as in the group I just described, but I see where you could have missed the word those, which, I do understand, would have caused you some confusion. If you doubt the proper semantic parsing of any of the sentences I've used, don't panic; you can call someone who knows about these things, like an elementary English teacher, or "My name is Rajid, but call me Mike", and they can explain it to you, probably much better than I can.
My apologies if I've come off a bit harsh, here, but I honestly highly doubt you misunderstood my words, after reviewing some of your posting history; you seem to have a good enough grasp of the English language that you certainly did not make such a simple mistake. And I don't take well to people deliberately misinterpreting what I say, which is the logical explanation, here, is it not?
Nothing wrong with my system, thanks. I'm aware of Windows' search features, thank you very much, but what of the majority of casual users who have relied on the Start menu since Windows 95? Windows hasn't been my primary OS for years, and likely never will be again, but I do have to stay familiar with it for testing and support purposes; I also have to remain familiar with how the average user uses it, and the Start screen was a huge step backwards for most of them.
There are a nontrivial number of people out there who want to use a computer, but don't want the complexity of a computer, so they opt for a tablet. A large subset of those people seriously can not come to terms with anything "computery" and, for them, it doesn't matter how simple and clear the instructions in a dialog are, they freak out because it popped up in the first place and call someone who "knows these things" to come read it to them.
And we're talking successful and well-to-do people, here. I could count on my fingers how many times my CSM has emailed a realtor instructions for some simple task in our CMS only to have them write back that they could not follow said written instructions and request a call. The entirety of such a call consists of my CSM reading, verbatim, those written instructions to the client, the client successfully doing whatever they were trying to do and thanking my CSM, then my CSM ending the call and laughing about it, but I ran out of fingers 3 weeks into the job.
there was 25-35% adoption of iOS7 in one day for god sake.
And what was the percentage in the following week? You're quite lucky to not have many technically-inept friends or family members. And it's not about superiority, but the social awkwardness I was referring to was making assumptions like the one you seem to be making by implying that the majority of users are as technically inclined as you and quoting news articles, rather than real-world experience, as your source; a sign that you don't have said experience.
How many of those 87% of iDevices were upgraded by a friend or family member of the user, or by GeekSquad or some other service that exists for the purpose of gouging device users of their hard-earned cash in exchange for clicking 2 or 3 buttons, and how many were upgraded by the user? Your sources dont, and can't, say. And 13% is by no means an extreme minority, my friend.
It's not how it behaved when I tested it on my non-touch-enabled laptop. But, then, I was testing a developer preview. On the two touch-enabled devices I still actually use it on, I don't typically bother with a mouse, so I guess you could say no, I haven't used the scroll wheel with any official Windows 8 release.
You, sir, are a Slashdotter. That means you are much more technically capable than most, even if somewhat socially awkward. Either you know full-well that there exist a nontrivial number of people who can't wrap their head around what to do when their iPad tells them an OS update is available, if you're so socially inept that you live in a fantasy world where everyone else is just like you.
Bravo, you can use a device with minimal help, just like the majority, but that doesn't automatically make the minority (who can't) a small group. Do what you will with this information, but when there are only two classes (can and can't, in this case) 49.999999% and 0.000001% are both minorities.
Slashdot Mirror
Transit is what you get when you accept packets at one end of your network and pass them through the other. Verizon's customers are endpoints on Verizon's network, making them part of Verizon's network for the purpose of determining who is selling transit and who is buying. Level 3, on the other hand, is accepting packets at one end and passing them out the other end, which is transit, which is what Level 3 provides to Verizon, not the other way around.
You know the Instagram app could do the image compression client-side, right? This would help there, as well, without costing Facebook a single extra CPU cycle.
That said, it's still not an exclusive right, as implied by the comment to which you were replying:
Even if they don't point out the vulnerabilities that the NSA use, they will point out vulnerabilities that the Russians or Chinese might use, and that's already better than nothing.
Unless Russia and China became part of the US and I just never heard about it.
It's not an exclusive right; what's stopping you, or anyone else, from doing the same thing, so you can be sure you're finding *all* the vulnerabilities?
Agreed! This is actually the first thing I tried to do in the developer preview, after having watched people interacting with the touch interface. I can see how they can *think* it would be less intuitive; I mean, how do you do 2- and 3-finger gestures with a single mouse cursor? But, then, how does a one-fingered man do them at all? He can still, at least, open apps, click buttons, and move stuff around, though. Yes, a single finger and the mouse cursor should behave identically; hell, make right-click behave like a 2-finger gesture (making a 2-finger tap or sequence of taps register as a right-click or sequence thereof) and do the same for middle-clicks, for users with a clickable scroll-wheel or a 3rd button.
I'm sure my lack of degree in UX design has me missing something important, here, but I can't see how this would degrade the interface *at all*, other than maybe forcing MS to reassign 2- and 3-finger taps to different functions than they currently have. I'm not sure that would be a bad thing, especially if the interface becomes more intuitive in the process.
So, because one of my examples is, in your eyes, invalid, despite all of my valid examples, my entire point is invalidated? By that logic, your use of an invalid (by way of disagreeing with itself) source invalidates your entire point and we should both shut up.
Show me the cost of paying somebody to upgrade your iOS device for you.
Falls under the Tablet Setup category if we're talking about iPads, or Device Setup if iPod or iPhone, since you want to nag about iDevices.. $29.99 and up, in either case.
It's been fun, but arguing with the same troll all night has gotten to be quite boring by now, so I'm going to go back to spending time with my wife now that I've cleared that up.
To be clear, there is no rage here. I'm actually finding your antics quite amusing, or I'd have moved on some time ago.
So, you've come around to agree with my initial position. Clearly, you disagreed at the onset of this debate, or there would have been no debate; my position has not changed.
False, I never said such a thing.
Then what are you arguing? I never argued the 87% number that you posted, but that a statistically-significant number of those devices were upgraded by 3rd parties. Since the hard numbers for that simply do not exist, some extrapolation does need to be done to reach a reasonable conclusion. If you can explain how my conclusion, that enough people need help with their devices (and hell, we'll limit it specifically to upgrading their iOS devices, because what the hell, why not?) that it is profitable to train people to provide and market the service, is unreasonable, please do so. Furthermore, if you can explain how the way I arrived at that conclusion (that services exist just for this purpose, and that those services are, quite obviously, profitable) is unreasonable, I'm open to that, as well.
That said, I'm pretty sure you did, in fact, assert that iOS users upgrade their own devices, the the point of there not being a statistically significant subset of iOS users who do not. Ahh, yes, right here, where you say
those who aren't capable of updating are the extreme minority.
And, as I've stated previously, an example is not a limitation, it's an example. Other examples exist, in posts farther up the thread, to illustrate this.
Ahh yes, I read the whole page. There is actually a 3rd set of numbers on that page; and no two sets agree. Those are sure some strong and reliable numbers. Do you see now, perhaps, why I'm questioning them? That said, I'd be willing to concede that first-day upgrades were, most likely, done by the device owner.
You wrote about such anecdotal evidence here [slashdot.org], or was that just an irrelevant piece of padding for your post?
Where, in that post, do I say that these users aren't taking steps to maintain their (in this case) websites? Simply put, I don't; I do, however, recount an event that has become recurrent enough so as to be a pattern, therefore a statistic (I'd have to active count each interaction to generate a hard number from the data, but it is a statistic, nonetheless) and not simply anecdotal.
I don't believe there are any spambots or botnets run on iOS devices, could you provide evidence of such things please?
That isn't the claim I made you limited this to iOS devices, while I provided iPads and Android devices as examples; I also listed cars, guns, microwaves, and televisions in an post predating the iPad and Android post, which should have made it clear that I was not limiting the scope. And certainly, even if I were limiting the scope, I did not limit it to iOS devices. Again, that was your doing. As a secondary point, there is evidence out there of malware in the iOS store, but, due to the limitations Apple places on what you can do with an app once you've downloaded it, there's really no way you can audit to prove otherwise. I'll leave you to do your own research and draw your own conclusions, since it's clear that I won't be swaying your opinion. For the record, I love my iPad and MacBook Pro.
Then why did you make the assertion? I'm questioning your assertion so I'd be happy to hear evidence supporting your argument but you have none.
Likewise and likewise. You have an assertion, that 87% of iOS device users upgraded their own devices; business logic and the fact that GeekSquad and the like offer such upgrading services, at a cost, would seem to indicate otherwise. I'm in full agreement with the numbers you have posted; I only disagree with your interpretation of those numbers, and for good reason.
and Androids
Also... f my typos... "whipped" should be "shipped".
You know... I responded to this post hastily and incorrectly. Let me re-roll, if you will.
the numbers prove that the vast majority of people are indeed upgrading.
The numbers do, indeed, show that the vast majority of iOS devices currently run iOS7. What the number do not show is which of those devices whipped with iOS7 and which were upgraded; they also do not show, of the devices that have been upgraded, which were upgraded by their users and which were upgraded by a 3rd party. Also, day 1 adoption was 18.2%, it's right there, clear as day in the chart in the article you provided; the chart is a comparison of iOS6 and iOS7 first-day adoption rates and the second line on the chart is iOS6.
Please, take a moment to understand what the statistics you plan to use in an argument mean before using them. Sure, your debates will be much less entertaining for everyone else involved, but you'll be able to form strong and coherent arguments that actually support your position. And, honestly, I miss a good solid debate.
Also... when did this discussion become just about iOS devices? That was your artificial contribution to this conversation, was it not? And still, even when you skew the conversation toward your own position, all you can do is point to numbers that show... well, nothing, really, since *anyone* with physical access to the device and the owner's permission can upgrade it. Also, this guy gets it.
Ahh yes, people who call tech support are, in fact, exercising one of the three options I initially provided. Wherein did I say they were not? There is also, clearly, a large subset who do not, or botnets, spambots, and the like would be much less prevalent than they are. I don't have hard numbers on this, but then, really, neither do you, because, as I stated before, your sources do not (and can not) indicate how many of those 87% of iOS devices were upgraded by their users, how many by family or friends of those users, and how many were upgraded by GeekSquad and the like. And the latter two were statistically insignificant, you can bet GekSquad and the like wouldn't bother spending the marketing and training dollars on the service; but they do.
Want hard numbers on that? Go talk to someone at Best buy; that's not my field.
Ahh, I think I see where our disconnect is. Did I say I extrapolated anything to cover the broader populace, or did you do some extrapolation of your own? Let's reconcile our differences over a nice quote, why don't we?
There are a nontrivial number of people out there who want to use a computer, but don't want the complexity of a computer, so they opt for a tablet. A large subset of those people seriously can not come to terms with anything "computery" and, for them, it doesn't matter how simple and clear the instructions in a dialog are, they freak out because it popped up in the first place and call someone who "knows these things" to come read it to them.
Now, let's analyze, shall we? There are a nontrivial number of people, that is to say more than a handful, in fact, a statistically significant, but not necessarily large number, of people; the rest of that sentence stands well enough in its own, I think, so...Moving on. A large subset of those people, as in the group I just described, but I see where you could have missed the word those, which, I do understand, would have caused you some confusion. If you doubt the proper semantic parsing of any of the sentences I've used, don't panic; you can call someone who knows about these things, like an elementary English teacher, or "My name is Rajid, but call me Mike", and they can explain it to you, probably much better than I can.
My apologies if I've come off a bit harsh, here, but I honestly highly doubt you misunderstood my words, after reviewing some of your posting history; you seem to have a good enough grasp of the English language that you certainly did not make such a simple mistake. And I don't take well to people deliberately misinterpreting what I say, which is the logical explanation, here, is it not?
Nothing wrong with my system, thanks. I'm aware of Windows' search features, thank you very much, but what of the majority of casual users who have relied on the Start menu since Windows 95? Windows hasn't been my primary OS for years, and likely never will be again, but I do have to stay familiar with it for testing and support purposes; I also have to remain familiar with how the average user uses it, and the Start screen was a huge step backwards for most of them.
Spend a month in tech support, that'll knock you down a peg or two.
There are a nontrivial number of people out there who want to use a computer, but don't want the complexity of a computer, so they opt for a tablet. A large subset of those people seriously can not come to terms with anything "computery" and, for them, it doesn't matter how simple and clear the instructions in a dialog are, they freak out because it popped up in the first place and call someone who "knows these things" to come read it to them.
And we're talking successful and well-to-do people, here. I could count on my fingers how many times my CSM has emailed a realtor instructions for some simple task in our CMS only to have them write back that they could not follow said written instructions and request a call. The entirety of such a call consists of my CSM reading, verbatim, those written instructions to the client, the client successfully doing whatever they were trying to do and thanking my CSM, then my CSM ending the call and laughing about it, but I ran out of fingers 3 weeks into the job.
there was 25-35% adoption of iOS7 in one day for god sake.
And what was the percentage in the following week? You're quite lucky to not have many technically-inept friends or family members. And it's not about superiority, but the social awkwardness I was referring to was making assumptions like the one you seem to be making by implying that the majority of users are as technically inclined as you and quoting news articles, rather than real-world experience, as your source; a sign that you don't have said experience.
How many of those 87% of iDevices were upgraded by a friend or family member of the user, or by GeekSquad or some other service that exists for the purpose of gouging device users of their hard-earned cash in exchange for clicking 2 or 3 buttons, and how many were upgraded by the user? Your sources dont, and can't, say. And 13% is by no means an extreme minority, my friend.
It's not how it behaved when I tested it on my non-touch-enabled laptop. But, then, I was testing a developer preview. On the two touch-enabled devices I still actually use it on, I don't typically bother with a mouse, so I guess you could say no, I haven't used the scroll wheel with any official Windows 8 release.
You, sir, are a Slashdotter. That means you are much more technically capable than most, even if somewhat socially awkward. Either you know full-well that there exist a nontrivial number of people who can't wrap their head around what to do when their iPad tells them an OS update is available, if you're so socially inept that you live in a fantasy world where everyone else is just like you.
Bravo, you can use a device with minimal help, just like the majority, but that doesn't automatically make the minority (who can't) a small group. Do what you will with this information, but when there are only two classes (can and can't, in this case) 49.999999% and 0.000001% are both minorities.