Leaked Build of Windows 9 Shows Start Menu Return

Billly Gates writes A leaked alpha of Windows 9 has been brewing on the internet. Today a screenshot shows what MS showed us at BUILD which includes a start menu with additional tiny tiles for things like people, calendar, pc settings, and news etc. "The new hybridized Start menu appears to be part of build 9788, which was compiled on July 4. While no one seems to have leaked the ISOs for build 9788 yet, the general consensus seems to be that the build does indeed exist somewhere at Microsoft — and that it might also feature Windows NT kernel version 6.4 (i.e. the complete version number is 6.4.9788). The screenshots show a Windows 8.1 Pro watermark, but this isn’t unusual for a very early alpha of a new build of Windows. If this really is the next version of the Windows NT kernel, then we’re most likely looking at an early build of Windows 9 (Threshold) rather than Windows 8.2."

Comments

Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

2015 will be year of the Linux Desktop!

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Among dinosaurs who still use desktop computers, instead of laptops or tablets, I guess.

You're either retarded, or you don't do anything useful with your computer.

Anyone who wants to do anything graphics-intensive would laugh at someone trying to push a laptop on them.

I hate idiots who think laptops are for gaming. They go buy the crappy $200 Walmart bargain, then wonder why it won't play BF4.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

People who actually need to use computers for tangible purposes.

The tablets people you mention shouldn't even be using electronic devices in the first place.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

It could be but as always M$ comes in and starts pooping all over with their shitty OS

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[unixisc]

I bought a new laptop last week, and wiped out Windows 8.1, replacing it w/ PC-BSD 10. It was some work, had some rough edges, but was worth it!

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Tablizer]

Most non-trivial software is still written for desktops, and that probably won't change any time soon because tablets lack the screen real-estate; and plugging a mouse (for fine pointing) and keyboard into them is not always convenient.

When it comes to work and productivity, desktops still rule (writing, reports, spreadsheets, CRUD, graphics, sound editing, high-end gaming, etc.) Maybe that will change one day as the market for tablets grows so large that "productivity" application makers target tablets first. Then people will start purchasing bigger tablets for productivity usage rather than a Windows PC.

That tipping point is roughly 4 to 12 years off, I would gander a guess.

If MS plays their cards right, then maybe they can get decent Windows tablets on the market so that the dream of one device for all usage is closer to a reality such that those who want productivity applications AND a nice tablet can have both. However, their Window of opportunity (pun intended) is closing fast: Google is hot on their heals.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, because my laptop handles graphics and games just fine. Better than most gaming desktops, in fact.

You're stuck in the 20th century.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Enthusiasts still need desktops just for the space requirements. Quiet cooling and several HDs need a lot of room and air flow. Even for my mom, I still use a desktop because I can work on it. Easy to upgrade and fix.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I'll run my 12 monitor traffic control system off a laptop. Good thinking.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Why, because they aren't computer nerds? That's like saying if you're not a pro racer or auto mechanic, you shouldn't be driving a car.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[geekoid]

hey there.
Laptop can be used for gaming, just not 200 dollar ones. guess what? 200 dollar desktops also can't be used for gaming.
There are a lot of laptops that an run the newest games at the highest graphic levels.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on the laptop.

Clevo P570WM : high-end desktop Core I7, 880M GTX SLI, 3 slots for HDDs/SSDs.
More expensive than a desktop, but hey, good luck taking a flight with your desktop...

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

My desktop is connected to two large flatscreens ( 60" and a 42" LCDs ) , I have two browsers open , multiple tabs , downloading with 3 instances of BNR2 , watching TV through a tuner card on one screen , lying back on the couch with a USB extender on the mouse and a wireless keyboard , allowing me to cycle between different programs and tabs with ease , all running effortlessly thanks to Win 8.1 and an I7 CPU , 5 TeraBytes of hard drive storage allowing me to store and replay multiple video and audio files.....and some retarded kid thinks I should replace this setup with a tiny screened finger smudged tablet.

Wow.Some people really are sheep.We dinosaurs aren't going extinct any time soon.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you say something that dumb? Serious work still requires a desktop PC.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[aaron4801]

Show me a laptop that lets me swap parts every couple years to stay relevant, instead of buying completely new, and I'll buy. Until then, I'm perfectly happy with my desktop with a few new parts, a few from last year, and probably a couple from about 6 years ago.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[war4peace]

ok, let me clarify: "with similar price tags".

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[tom229]

whoooosh

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[gigaherz]

Both my desktop computer AND my laptop have one thing in common: neither of them is a tablet. And Windows 8 as is is ONLY oriented towards tablets.

A lightweight OS oriented in low power usage and touch-based controls, which just happens to still maintain some sort of classic experience because they couldn't be arsed to remove it the way they removed other perfectly functional features, is not the OS I want to use.

Windows 9 may or may not be good enough to get into my computers. We'll see.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Most good laptops are modular. You'd know that if you knew anything at all about computers and technology.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate idiots who think laptops are for gaming. They go buy the crappy $200 Walmart bargain, then wonder why it won't play BF4.

Nobody wants to play BF4.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[geekoid]

" And Windows 8 as is is ONLY oriented towards tablets"
false.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Joe_Dragon]

I don't want a laptop with annoyingly loud fans and very shout battery

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

My desktop is connected to two large flatscreens ( 60" and a 42" LCDs ) , I have two browsers open , multiple tabs , downloading with 3 instances of BNR2 , watching TV through a tuner card on one screen , lying back on the couch with a USB extender on the mouse and a wireless keyboard , allowing me to cycle between different programs and tabs with ease , all running effortlessly thanks to Win 8.1 and an I7 CPU , 5 TeraBytes of hard drive storage allowing me to store and replay multiple video and audio files.....and some retarded kid thinks I should replace this setup with a tiny screened finger smudged tablet.

Wow.Some people really are sheep.We dinosaurs aren't going extinct any time soon.

My notebook computer is connected to a large flat-screen monitor (22 inches), I have one web browser open, multiple tabs, connected with a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse, three Internet connections available, streaming Internet radio and music services, remotely connected to a number of virtual servers and workstations (no graphics necessary) and running multiple VMs locally. What was your point again?

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

If you can't use and maintain it properly and safely (knowing when it needs service and being able to take it to someone who *can* service it if you can't *does* count), then you shouldn't be using it, whether "it" is a car, a computer, a gun, or really anything else... Insisting upon doing so anyway only serves to endanger yourself and those around you and is both selfish and (potentially criminally) irresponsible. If you don't want the expense of paying someone to maintain your things for you, you learn how to maintain them yourself; then you don't have the expense of paying someone to do it for you -- but you have a choice: Learn to maintain it, ay to maintain it, or simply don't use it. There's a fourth option, which is "use it anyway", the irresponsible and often dangerous option, which the raging idiot masses often opt for out of ignorance, then complain (and try and blame someone else) when shit goes south. I've said it a couple different ways now, so hopefully you get it.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[execthis]

What about a universal remote like a Logitech Harmony? I always wondered how well those work with your type of setup.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

But you'd be ok with a desktop with even louder fans and no battery at all?

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[execthis]

But what's so important about the one device for everything idea? It makes sense to have at least one dedicated home device a.k.a file server a.k.a media server etc., one ultra-portable thing like a smartphone, and also a portable thing like a laptop also.

The laptop could conceivably replace the home server but there are a lot of reasons why I always want a dedicated information appliance in my home.

I would think there are very few people who would never travel and want to have a powerful information appliance with them (i.e. not just a smartphone).

Where convergence will occur is when tablets morph into laptops, or laptops morph into things like tablets with detachable keyboards.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

What does any of that have to do with people using tablets? Tablets are electronic devices that you are supposed to use until they either die or become obsolete, just like televisions, stereos, microwaves or cars. You're seriously an idiot if you think people who have been using these things for decades can't deal with that.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

So a high end notebook/laptop can approach the performance of a basic desktop, at a somewhat higher cost,but without the advantages of massive hard drive storage and easy upgradability .Who knew? By the way, I built my desktop myself and look forward to many years of usage as I can upgrade/expand as required , probably much more cheaply than buying a new laptop every few years.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure,the mouse works fine,never seen the need for a remote

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

You'd be surprised how many can't... Have you ever had to support them? Yes, people need hand-holding level support for their iPads and Androids and you're naive if you think they don't. And if you think a car is supposed to be used until it dies, with no maintenance or upkeep (like a TV, stereo, microwave, or tablet), I need to know what roads you commonly drive on so I can avoid them.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Elusive_Cure]

Depends on the laptop.

Clevo P570WM : high-end desktop Core I7, 880M GTX SLI, 3 slots for HDDs/SSDs. More expensive than a desktop, but hey, good luck taking a flight with your desktop...

Lol.... Have you even considered that second grade electronics such as the ones used by clevo and rebranded all over the world (here in Greece by Plaisio - Turbox budget laptops) won't last more than a year and a half TOPS running full throttle on games. I run a small IT business and daily i deal with people beeing fooled by computer super markets into buying Clevo and shit. Never beeing happier (businesswise) when i have one of those on my bench, it's easy money reflowing GPUs. Not that higher grade laptops are better, cheap HPs (G series) are a waste of money due to overheating, Acer has long forgotten how to make a proper laptop and the list goes on.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Elusive_Cure]

Depends on the laptop.

Clevo P570WM : high-end desktop Core I7, 880M GTX SLI, 3 slots for HDDs/SSDs. More expensive than a desktop, but hey, good luck taking a flight with your desktop...

He bought a Clevo..... Hahahahahahaha.... Can't....... stop........ laughing.....

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup! Most good laptops can have their hard-drives replaced, or memory upgrade one step, or... no, that's all. I work on this shit all day every day. You can't swap a graphics card, because the bios has a white-list of two possible cards. Even if you hack the bios, it doesn't matter because MXM is a port size, not an interface standard. Any two MXM cards won't necessarily be interchangeable.

Likewise, you can't upgrade your CPU more than one or two notches, because laptop manufacturers, even on the high end, only build in support for the CPUs that were available as options to begin with. There will never be bios support for better or newer CPUs. You'd know that if you knew anything at all about computers and technology.

Motherboard obsolete? Well, if you have an HP laptop, you can probably replace the motherboard with a board from the equivalent laptop that is one year newer. Otherwise you don't even get that option. Wow. Such upgrades. So Modular!

The monitor is pin dependent, so you have to look for a particular monitor if it breaks, the cabling connection to the motherboard is proprietary, the keyboards aren't even interchangeable.

So on this extrememly high end Alienware laptop in my shop, you can downgrade the CPU, downgrade the Video cards one step, or downgrade the memory. Want to make anything faster? BUY A NEW LAPTOP ASSHOLE! You're an idiot.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

And Windows 8 as is is ONLY oriented towards tablets.

You realise it has a desktop right? That all your applications still run and operate the same as they did on Windows 7 right? Yes *one* of the methods used to launch applications has changed to be touch-friendly but that's it.

It's funny the way people can evangelize the linux desktop or OS X yet those same people are completely befuddled and useless when you take their start menu away. Yes it was a change, yes that change was good if you wanted to use Windows on a tablet and no it wasn't particularly useful if you wanted to use Windows on a desktop but if you boot-to-desktop then it's not much different to OS X. You have the Taskbar (Dock), Desktop (Desktop), Win+S for search (Cmd+Space for spotlight) and you have the Start Screen (Launchpad), it really isn't that hard.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

It wasn't too bad if you have a horizontal scrollwheel or a touch screen. What MS could have done to make it a bit better is to allow the standard vertical scrollwheel most mice come with nowadays to scroll the start screen; down = right, up = left (because you always started at the TOP of the start menu, naturally you'd scroll DOWN for more, while the start screen starts at the LEFT, requiring you to scroll RIGHT for more). That would have added immensely to the intuitiveness of the interface and made it much less of a bear to use on non-touch interfaces.

To be clear, I have with a Windows tablet and a touch-enabled Windows laptop and I don't mind the interface on either; but I absolutely abhor it on non-touch equipment.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[graphius]

" And Windows 8 as is is ONLY oriented towards tablets" false.

false

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[dbIII]

It seemed to still suck immensely on the Win8.1 tablet I set up but half of that could have been the annoying animated advertising that Lenovo shipped it with.
Having to fucking search just to get to windows update? It's broken windows.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

The point is that gaming laptops are pretty useless, being over-priced, underpowered and - at nearly 6kg - not exactly portable. Sure some people will put up with the bulk, high cost, short battery life and noise for semi-portable gaming but it's not a great solution.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Joe_Dragon]

You can do water cooling and / or set up fans in a way they are not that loud and get a UPS that can run your desktop + screen + your internet hardware all in one unit if you want.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

My desktop is connected to two large flatscreens ( 60" and a 42" LCDs )

My laptop is often connected to my 2 27" flatscreens, but it doesn't have to be.

I have two browsers open , multiple tabs , downloading with 3 instances of BNR2 , watching TV through a tuner card on one screen

Oh wow! Like you totally couldn't have done that 10 years ago.

5 TeraBytes of hard drive storage allowing me to store and replay multiple video and audio files

All my storage is on a NAS so it isn't tied to one end system.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

Yes, people need hand-holding level support for their iPads

In what way? And who are these "people"? You mean all people, you included? Or just a subset that you've found that you've extrapolated? I have had the odd question about what a feature does or say how to set up email on a Galaxy after having an iPhone but certainly nothing like ongoing maintenance or servicing.

Exactly what would you say servicing and maintenance for an ipad would be that "people" aren't capable of?

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

You, sir, are a Slashdotter. That means you are much more technically capable than most, even if somewhat socially awkward. Either you know full-well that there exist a nontrivial number of people who can't wrap their head around what to do when their iPad tells them an OS update is available, if you're so socially inept that you live in a fantasy world where everyone else is just like you.

Bravo, you can use a device with minimal help, just like the majority, but that doesn't automatically make the minority (who can't) a small group. Do what you will with this information, but when there are only two classes (can and can't, in this case) 49.999999% and 0.000001% are both minorities.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Mine was confiscated last week for being too curvy. :'-(

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Tablizer]

You are talking about having 3 devices: big screen (desktop), mid-screen (tablet), and pocket screen (phone).

That's a lot of devices. The average household has a hard time affording all 3 sizes.

And 2 sizes are arguably good enough. If most of your travel is for business, then you already have the "big" business apps screen. You don't often need a mid-sized screen: you typically are not going to carry a tablet to a restaurant most of the time after hours, you use your smart-phone.

Further, if the same apps are on all 3 size types, or at least 2, then you don't have to learn new software to use the same thing on multiple. You may lose some features or navigation ability between sizes, but that may be better than using a completely different app brand.

I for one welcome the convergence overlords.

Re: Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, that's exactly how the scroll wheel actually behaves. Have you even used it?

Re: Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

It's not how it behaved when I tested it on my non-touch-enabled laptop. But, then, I was testing a developer preview. On the two touch-enabled devices I still actually use it on, I don't typically bother with a mouse, so I guess you could say no, I haven't used the scroll wheel with any official Windows 8 release.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

Either you know full-well that there exist a nontrivial number of people who can't wrap their head around what to do when their iPad tells them an OS update is available, if you're so socially inept that you live in a fantasy world where everyone else is just like you.

No, you simply have an over-inflated opinion of yourself and those you deem "technically capable" because the numbers don't lie, those who aren't capable of updating are the extreme minority.

You don't need to perpetuate the idiotic falsehood that only socially awkward people know what to do when their device says an update is available, if you need to feel superior in that manner to justify your social awkwardness that's your problem but that perception is not reality, there was 25-35% adoption of iOS7 in one day for god sake.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

To be clear, I have with a Windows tablet and a touch-enabled Windows laptop and I don't mind the interface on either;

Same.

but I absolutely abhor it on non-touch equipment.

Agreed (insofar as the start screen is concerned).

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Luckyo]

Kindly point us to your magical gaming laptop that handles graphics and games "better than most gaming desktops". Quite a few of us are looking for such a machine, and sadly it does not exist yet.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[execthis]

Almost but I said home server for a specific reason. It doesn't have to be connected to a big screen at all. I have a $150 small-form factor box that runs headless and acts as a file server plus serves a few other functions. The most expensive device in the setup is probably the laptop/tablet device, not the home server.

The tablet and laptop will merge in the future. Just as now, there will be an array to choose from - more svelte models and more heftier ones, but few will want to own a laptop and a tablet in the future. They will merge.

But IMHO the home server is something important.
The home server could also morph with the router/modem. Thus new routers now increasingly have NAS-like functions and many other functions as well.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

there was 25-35% adoption of iOS7 in one day for god sake.

And what was the percentage in the following week? You're quite lucky to not have many technically-inept friends or family members. And it's not about superiority, but the social awkwardness I was referring to was making assumptions like the one you seem to be making by implying that the majority of users are as technically inclined as you and quoting news articles, rather than real-world experience, as your source; a sign that you don't have said experience.

How many of those 87% of iDevices were upgraded by a friend or family member of the user, or by GeekSquad or some other service that exists for the purpose of gouging device users of their hard-earned cash in exchange for clicking 2 or 3 buttons, and how many were upgraded by the user? Your sources dont, and can't, say. And 13% is by no means an extreme minority, my friend.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

And what was the percentage in the following week?

I don't have the week-by-week numbers but adoption is close to 90% presently and frankly given the simplicity of the update process it is easy to see why.

And it's not about superiority, but the social awkwardness I was referring to was making assumptions like the one you seem to be making by implying that the majority of users are as technically inclined as you and quoting news articles, rather than real-world experience, as your source; a sign that you don't have said experience.

No it is that the "real world experience" you claim to have is not representative of the real world since the numbers prove that the vast majority of people are indeed upgrading.

How many of those 87% of iDevices were upgraded by a friend or family member of the user, or by GeekSquad or some other service that exists for the purpose of gouging device users of their hard-earned cash in exchange for clicking 2 or 3 buttons, and how many were upgraded by the user? Your sources dont, and can't, say.

The dialog tells you there is an update, you simply click Install or Later and you actually believe that when presented with such a dialog that most people will have no idea what to do? Really? Come on, don't be an idiot. If you are surrounded by people who are unable to comprehend that then you are surrounded by mental defectives, that is not representative of the general population.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

there exist a nontrivial number of people who can't wrap their head around what to do when their iPad tells them an OS update is available

some of the people classified as "mentally retarded" would fall into that group perhaps but in reality most people are fine with understanding a simple dialog telling them an update is available.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

There are a nontrivial number of people out there who want to use a computer, but don't want the complexity of a computer, so they opt for a tablet. A large subset of those people seriously can not come to terms with anything "computery" and, for them, it doesn't matter how simple and clear the instructions in a dialog are, they freak out because it popped up in the first place and call someone who "knows these things" to come read it to them.

And we're talking successful and well-to-do people, here. I could count on my fingers how many times my CSM has emailed a realtor instructions for some simple task in our CMS only to have them write back that they could not follow said written instructions and request a call. The entirety of such a call consists of my CSM reading, verbatim, those written instructions to the client, the client successfully doing whatever they were trying to do and thanking my CSM, then my CSM ending the call and laughing about it, but I ran out of fingers 3 weeks into the job.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

There are a nontrivial number of people out there who want to use a computer, but don't want the complexity of a computer, so they opt for a tablet. A large subset of those people seriously can not come to terms with anything "computery" and, for them, it doesn't matter how simple and clear the instructions in a dialog are, they freak out because it popped up in the first place and call someone who "knows these things" to come read it to them.

Citation? Or numbers on what these "non trivial numbers" are? Because frankly your anecdotal evidence only serves to prove you're constantly in the presence of retards and you justify your extrapolation of that "evidence" with the assumption that such people get by by having others respond to even the simplest things for them.

Quite simply that is absolute rubbish, the majority of people will not "freak out" when they get a dialog to update, even the most computer illiterate person can come to terms with a modal dialog informing them of an update. I feel sorry for you being confined to the company of nitwits, the rest of the world isn't that stupid.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

What MS could have done to make it a bit better is to allow the standard vertical scrollwheel most mice come with nowadays to scroll the start screen;

No, what they could have done is used the 1920x1080 resolution (still fewer vertical pixels than my 1600x1200 21" CRT, but I digress) of the screen to render a start menu. With more than the default-for-Vista/7 ten items, but more like the default-for-XP "as-many-items-as-will-fit-on-the-screen."

The UX for the desktop was done 10 years ago. Fuck UXtards. They exist to promulgate change not even for change's own sake, but for the preservation of their own useless jobs and to the detriment of the companies for which they work: Firefox, GNOME, and Microsoft have all had astonishing drops in market share solely due to the efforts of UX "professionals." If you value your business, fire your UX department.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

Spend a month in tech support, that'll knock you down a peg or two.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

No.. 2015 will be the year of the Windows Start Menu.... you know someone screw up badly if bringing back something that was removed become major news

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[cbhacking]

What MS could have done to make it a bit better is to allow the standard vertical scrollwheel most mice come with nowadays to scroll the start screen; down = right, up = left (because you always started at the TOP of the start menu, naturally you'd scroll DOWN for more, while the start screen starts at the LEFT, requiring you to scroll RIGHT for more).

What the hell's wrong with your system? That's exactly what it does, at least on 8.0 (haven't "upgraded" to 8.1 because they cut a feature that I regularly use). My mouse wheel is not capable of side-scroll, but I just tested with vertical scrolling and it works exactly like you describe.

Of course, the reason I had to test that is because it's not something a sane person should ever need to do. You have a keyboard, right? Type the first few letters of the program name (or type the file name), hit Enter, and behold the launching of your program. Just like you've been able to do for the last 7+ years, since fucking Vista (to say nothing of Win7).

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

Nothing wrong with my system, thanks. I'm aware of Windows' search features, thank you very much, but what of the majority of casual users who have relied on the Start menu since Windows 95? Windows hasn't been my primary OS for years, and likely never will be again, but I do have to stay familiar with it for testing and support purposes; I also have to remain familiar with how the average user uses it, and the Start screen was a huge step backwards for most of them.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

Spend a month in tech support, that'll knock you down a peg or two.

No i'm not particularly surprised that the vast majority of people who call tech support need tech support or that a non-trivial amount of those are for simple requests but I wouldn't be so silly as to extrapolate that to cover the broader populace.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't a dick bragging contest ( desktops would win anyway , if it was - what laptop ,for example , has a video card equivalent to an R290X ?)
The parent post asserted that only dinosaurs use desktops, an assertion with which most respondents in this thread have strongly disagreed .We 'dinosaurs ' use desktops because:
1.Bang for buck - the best value in performance for dollars.It takes a very expensive laptop to approach the performance of even a mid-range desktop.
2.Easily upgradeable and fixable - One of my old PCs is an i7 860 to which I have added an SSD as the OS drive ,Win 8.1 and an AMD 6970 video card and for general use , watching vidz , downloading from and browsing the net it still goes toe-to-toe with any new PC
3.Convenience - as compared to tablets , so much easier to use when you are at home and lying on the couch , which is where you will find me most of the time.
4.Hard drive storage - let me know when they sell laptops with 5-10 terabytes of hdd space ( and also the price of such gadgets )
By the way, I have purchased 3 tablets ( two Ipads and a generic Android ) - for my kids, they love them! And I also own a laptop , which I used to use at work for 20-30 minutes a day for browsing the web during my lunch breaks.Now I use my phone for that so the laptop sits in my living room,under the table,gathering dust . When I come home and want to relax , my desktop is my high-end machine of choice , and nothing I have seen on the market has yet made me want to change.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you could learn how to use it. But that would mean not being a moron.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

Ahh, I think I see where our disconnect is. Did I say I extrapolated anything to cover the broader populace, or did you do some extrapolation of your own? Let's reconcile our differences over a nice quote, why don't we?

There are a nontrivial number of people out there who want to use a computer, but don't want the complexity of a computer, so they opt for a tablet. A large subset of those people seriously can not come to terms with anything "computery" and, for them, it doesn't matter how simple and clear the instructions in a dialog are, they freak out because it popped up in the first place and call someone who "knows these things" to come read it to them.

Now, let's analyze, shall we? There are a nontrivial number of people, that is to say more than a handful, in fact, a statistically significant, but not necessarily large number, of people; the rest of that sentence stands well enough in its own, I think, so...Moving on. A large subset of those people, as in the group I just described, but I see where you could have missed the word those, which, I do understand, would have caused you some confusion. If you doubt the proper semantic parsing of any of the sentences I've used, don't panic; you can call someone who knows about these things, like an elementary English teacher, or "My name is Rajid, but call me Mike", and they can explain it to you, probably much better than I can.

My apologies if I've come off a bit harsh, here, but I honestly highly doubt you misunderstood my words, after reviewing some of your posting history; you seem to have a good enough grasp of the English language that you certainly did not make such a simple mistake. And I don't take well to people deliberately misinterpreting what I say, which is the logical explanation, here, is it not?

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[the_Bionic_lemming]

So, folks like my elderly father or his elderly neighbor that had 8.1 inflicted on them after being able to navigate smoothly on XP are morons?

The mirror you are staring at is a mirror. Moron.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

There are a nontrivial number of people, that is to say more than a handful, in fact, a statistically significant

If this group is indeed statistically significant then show me the statistic that among iOS users this group exists that "freaks out" when presented with a dialog notifying them of an update. I doubt the existence of such a statistically significant group given the simplicity of the task and options made available. Moreover your anecdotal evidence is of people that do call tech support, they do indeed choose one of the valid options you presented and are not ones that "use it anyway".

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how many people get automatically updated to Service Pack 1 / Service Pack 2 on a Windows machine?

Or when each individual company releases their own customized version of Android (no, I'm not talking about overall)

If you break it down, I'll be you anything the percentages are the same because the prompts for updates are the same / similar / automatic.

And if those same i Users have been trained to click "NO" for unexpected popups, then yes. I happen to support a bunch of salespeople, and half the people don't understand prompts that we slashdotters think are easy.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

Ahh yes, people who call tech support are, in fact, exercising one of the three options I initially provided. Wherein did I say they were not? There is also, clearly, a large subset who do not, or botnets, spambots, and the like would be much less prevalent than they are. I don't have hard numbers on this, but then, really, neither do you, because, as I stated before, your sources do not (and can not) indicate how many of those 87% of iOS devices were upgraded by their users, how many by family or friends of those users, and how many were upgraded by GeekSquad and the like. And the latter two were statistically insignificant, you can bet GekSquad and the like wouldn't bother spending the marketing and training dollars on the service; but they do.

Want hard numbers on that? Go talk to someone at Best buy; that's not my field.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

Also... when did this discussion become just about iOS devices? That was your artificial contribution to this conversation, was it not? And still, even when you skew the conversation toward your own position, all you can do is point to numbers that show... well, nothing, really, since *anyone* with physical access to the device and the owner's permission can upgrade it. Also, this guy gets it.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

You know... I responded to this post hastily and incorrectly. Let me re-roll, if you will.

the numbers prove that the vast majority of people are indeed upgrading.

The numbers do, indeed, show that the vast majority of iOS devices currently run iOS7. What the number do not show is which of those devices whipped with iOS7 and which were upgraded; they also do not show, of the devices that have been upgraded, which were upgraded by their users and which were upgraded by a 3rd party. Also, day 1 adoption was 18.2%, it's right there, clear as day in the chart in the article you provided; the chart is a comparison of iOS6 and iOS7 first-day adoption rates and the second line on the chart is iOS6.

Please, take a moment to understand what the statistics you plan to use in an argument mean before using them. Sure, your debates will be much less entertaining for everyone else involved, but you'll be able to form strong and coherent arguments that actually support your position. And, honestly, I miss a good solid debate.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

Also... f my typos... "whipped" should be "shipped".

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

Also... when did this discussion become just about iOS devices?

At the time you posted this: Yes, people need hand-holding level support for their iPads and Androids and you're naive if you think they don't.

That was your artificial contribution to this conversation, was it not?

No it was not.

And still, even when you skew the conversation toward your own position

Wrong, you started the conversation on this topic, I singled out the iOS component because I don't know the process on Android so cannot comment on it.

all you can do is point to numbers that show... well, nothing, really, since *anyone* with physical access to the device and the owner's permission can upgrade it.

While they could potentially be that the simplicity of the process makes it highly doubtful, moreover you show absolutely nothing whatsoever to support your assertion.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

Ahh yes, people who call tech support are, in fact, exercising one of the three options I initially provided. Wherein did I say they were not?

You wrote about such anecdotal evidence here, or was that just an irrelevant piece of padding for your post?

There is also, clearly, a large subset who do not, or botnets, spambots, and the like would be much less prevalent than they are.

I don't believe there are any spambots or botnets run on iOS devices, could you provide evidence of such things please?

I don't have hard numbers on this

Then why did you make the assertion? I'm questioning your assertion so I'd be happy to hear evidence supporting your argument but you have none.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

and Androids

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

Also, day 1 adoption was 18.2%, it's right there, clear as day in the chart in the article you provided; the chart is a comparison of iOS6 and iOS7 first-day adoption rates and the second line on the chart is iOS6.

Read the whole page. That is one of the sources, interpolate between them if you wish. Either way for a single day that is a massive adoption rate.

And, honestly, I miss a good solid debate.

Then how about you start, provide evidence to support your position...go!

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

Yes and Androids, but since I don't know much about that process I'm focusing on the iPads component.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

You wrote about such anecdotal evidence here [slashdot.org], or was that just an irrelevant piece of padding for your post?

Where, in that post, do I say that these users aren't taking steps to maintain their (in this case) websites? Simply put, I don't; I do, however, recount an event that has become recurrent enough so as to be a pattern, therefore a statistic (I'd have to active count each interaction to generate a hard number from the data, but it is a statistic, nonetheless) and not simply anecdotal.

I don't believe there are any spambots or botnets run on iOS devices, could you provide evidence of such things please?

That isn't the claim I made you limited this to iOS devices, while I provided iPads and Android devices as examples; I also listed cars, guns, microwaves, and televisions in an post predating the iPad and Android post, which should have made it clear that I was not limiting the scope. And certainly, even if I were limiting the scope, I did not limit it to iOS devices. Again, that was your doing. As a secondary point, there is evidence out there of malware in the iOS store, but, due to the limitations Apple places on what you can do with an app once you've downloaded it, there's really no way you can audit to prove otherwise. I'll leave you to do your own research and draw your own conclusions, since it's clear that I won't be swaying your opinion. For the record, I love my iPad and MacBook Pro.

Then why did you make the assertion? I'm questioning your assertion so I'd be happy to hear evidence supporting your argument but you have none.

Likewise and likewise. You have an assertion, that 87% of iOS device users upgraded their own devices; business logic and the fact that GeekSquad and the like offer such upgrading services, at a cost, would seem to indicate otherwise. I'm in full agreement with the numbers you have posted; I only disagree with your interpretation of those numbers, and for good reason.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

they also do not show, of the devices that have been upgraded, which were upgraded by their users and which were upgraded by a 3rd party.

you said that doesnt matter. that people either do it on their own or get somebody to do it for them. or are you so busy raging you forgot what your even raging about?

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Now how is a proper OS like BSD related to Linux?

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

Ahh yes, I read the whole page. There is actually a 3rd set of numbers on that page; and no two sets agree. Those are sure some strong and reliable numbers. Do you see now, perhaps, why I'm questioning them? That said, I'd be willing to concede that first-day upgrades were, most likely, done by the device owner.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

Where, in that post, do I say that these users aren't taking steps to maintain their (in this case) websites? Simply put, I don't;

So it's not relevant, since we aren't talking about those who do take steps to maintain their devices.

That isn't the claim I made you limited this to iOS devices while I provided iPads and Android devices as examples

Then show me the evidence for including iPads, no more weasel words, just evidence, come on.

You have an assertion, that 87% of iOS device users upgraded their own devices

False, I never said such a thing.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

And, as I've stated previously, an example is not a limitation, it's an example. Other examples exist, in posts farther up the thread, to illustrate this.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

False, I never said such a thing.

Then what are you arguing? I never argued the 87% number that you posted, but that a statistically-significant number of those devices were upgraded by 3rd parties. Since the hard numbers for that simply do not exist, some extrapolation does need to be done to reach a reasonable conclusion. If you can explain how my conclusion, that enough people need help with their devices (and hell, we'll limit it specifically to upgrading their iOS devices, because what the hell, why not?) that it is profitable to train people to provide and market the service, is unreasonable, please do so. Furthermore, if you can explain how the way I arrived at that conclusion (that services exist just for this purpose, and that those services are, quite obviously, profitable) is unreasonable, I'm open to that, as well.

That said, I'm pretty sure you did, in fact, assert that iOS users upgrade their own devices, the the point of there not being a statistically significant subset of iOS users who do not. Ahh, yes, right here, where you say

those who aren't capable of updating are the extreme minority.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

So, you've come around to agree with my initial position. Clearly, you disagreed at the onset of this debate, or there would have been no debate; my position has not changed.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

To be clear, there is no rage here. I'm actually finding your antics quite amusing, or I'd have moved on some time ago.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

If you can explain how my conclusion, that enough people need help with their devices (and hell, we'll limit it specifically to upgrading their iOS devices, because what the hell, why not?) that it is profitable to train people to provide and market the service, is unreasonable, please do so.

Ok show me the numbers then:
Show me the cost of training. Given that it's a one click process I'm going to assume the cost is virtually zero.
Show me the cost of paying somebody to upgrade your iOS device for you.

That said, I'm pretty sure you did, in fact, assert that iOS users upgrade their own devices, the the point of there not being a statistically significant subset of iOS users who do not. Ahh, yes, right here, where you say

those who aren't capable of updating are the extreme minority.

In that they are upgraded, whether it's by themselves or somebody else is not relevant, though i suspect given the triviality of it it probably is themselves.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

And I'm not questioning those examples, I'm questioning one of your examples, which doesn't work as an example if it is invalid so show me the evidence that it is valid, but you can't and continue to fail to do so.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Whiteox]

That all your applications still run and operate the same as they did on Windows 7 right?

No it doesn't. Installing MS Office proves the point for me. No tile, no desktop icon. I had to find the installation and make shortcuts and pin them to the taskbar.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Whiteox]

True. A high end i7 laptop will normally overheat when ripping a DVD or any heavy duty process that lasts for 45+ mins. They are just not designed to be a workhorse. In fact, I can't think of any reason why you should buy an i7 laptop as far as software is concerned. You going to render massive images for hrs on a laptop???
Laptops are a compromise, not a replacement.
Netbooks/Tablets are a different matter and much more suited to Win 8. Windows Phone 8 and 8.1 is excellent and works a treat with Win 7/8 installations. The $99 MS tablet would be an excellent addition to the MS environment. But Win 8 (and 8.1) was never designed to operate on a desktop environment. Win 9 will be and during installation, it will determine which GUI to install. I can hardly wait till 3rd quarter 2015 when it is released.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell that to my GTX 780M SLI laptop. Your desktop is a complete piece of shit in comparison.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't have to mess with that kludgy stuff for my gaming laptop. Even at full tilt the fans are barely audible in a silent room and the battery lasts 3-4 hours while gaming.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

No, only shitty laptops like Toshibas, Lenovos and HPs overheat. Alienware, Asus and MSI laptops have zero problem with cooling. Try using quality next time.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

Show me the cost of paying somebody to upgrade your iOS device for you.

Falls under the Tablet Setup category if we're talking about iPads, or Device Setup if iPod or iPhone, since you want to nag about iDevices.. $29.99 and up, in either case.

It's been fun, but arguing with the same troll all night has gotten to be quite boring by now, so I'm going to go back to spending time with my wife now that I've cleared that up.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

So, because one of my examples is, in your eyes, invalid, despite all of my valid examples, my entire point is invalidated? By that logic, your use of an invalid (by way of disagreeing with itself) source invalidates your entire point and we should both shut up.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

My notebook has a socketed Haswell i7 CPU, MXM GTX 880M GPU, 16GB RAM (expandable to 32GB), dual internal drive bays with a 2TB hard drive + 500GB SSD and 16TB of external USB 3.0 storage connected to it. Oh and it's portable.

So what does your desktop PC have?

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Whiteox]

YMMV - The i7 I was referring to was an Asus about 12 months old. It was clean, dust free and otherwise worked well. I had it upstairs near my DVD collection and would rip a DVD (using Handbrake), then copy the mkv file to my home server, if the rip took less than 40 mins, then all ok, but if I happened to be around and ripped a 2nd DVD within a few minutes, then BEFORE it finished the rip, it would shut down. After looking at logs etc, I worked out it was overheating. A USB fan~table did help but I would give it 30 mins to cool off before I ripped again.
Strangely, a crappy Compaq C60 would rip without problems, but it took soo long that it wasn't worth the wait. In the end, I was ripping on a Dual core tower and the i7 laptop without too many problems.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Something tells me you weigh more than you should.

Re: Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

You're obviously stuck trying to prove to the world how modern and hip you are. The rest of us will just laugh quietly.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not merely "touch friendly". It's very much keyboard/mouse-hostile. All of the metro stuff is complete shit, and it's a HUGE step back from 7.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[TheDarkMaster]

Dude, you are a very, very dumb piece of shit. Many people use computers to work, not to play flash games.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[TheDarkMaster]

Using 800x600 for resolution? Or paying triple for the same hardware and having to be plugged into an outlet all the time to not finish off the battery in 20 minutes?

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[TheDarkMaster]

How many minutes you can stay unplugged, stupid? And if you need to stay connected to a power outlet to play, then what is the point of using a laptop? And remember that a video card of notebook is considerably lower than the equivalent desktop board, because otherwise it would melt your notebook on your lap. Inform yourself before you write shit.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Malc]

Microsoft's tiled thing is more like OS X's Launchpad. Both are shit and hard to use. Thankfully OS X only made Launchpad an optional extra if you want to use it.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[DarthVain]

It does exist. It just costs about twice as much at 3000$+

And then really doesn't function very well as a laptop, as it is too big, and uses enough juice on gpu/cpu to give it less than great battery power.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Well I don't know about better but my gaming laptop is pretty decent

Core i7 ivy bridge 3.3ghz turbo quad core w/HT
16GB ddr3 1866mhz
256GB msata ssd + 750GB SSHD hybrid drive
GTX660m 2gb GDDR5 @ 1235mhz core 5.2ghz mem
Windows 7

That's pretty decent if you ask me

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Luckyo]

For a laptop yes.

For a desktop, no. That GPU for example is absolutely pathetic. It's less powerful than approximately on par with budget GT 640 desktop version (which cost less than 100USD on release). Same goes for the CPU, an average desktop i5 will destroy it.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

My laptop is connected to two large flatscreens. I have tons of stuff open. I also have a wireless mouse and keyboard and run win 8.1. I guess the difference is that I have 16TB connected as well.

There's seriously no need for desktops anymore unless you have an over-abundance of space and electricity, or do high-end stuff like video processing and want to save a few bucks getting a desktop.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's especially funny because most Linux distros are horrendous without hours of customization and configuration (which is fine) but if Windows 8 isn't exactly perfect how they want it right out of the box, it's terrible.

After just a few small tweaks (Classic Shell, 7TT, remove window padding, maybe add quicklaunch back if you like it), Windows 8 is fantastic and much better on the desktop than anything that has come before it. It is faster than 7, it has several new features, and is generally more secure and stable. With UEFI I boot up in under 5 seconds, reboot in under 10.

Saying that 7 is better than 8 because 8 requires some tweaking is something that is insane on a site like Slashdot. Yes, 7 is better for your grandma to install unassisted. 8 is better for anyone who has a friend who can do 15 minutes of tweaks on install to bring back old-school Windows with a better operating system.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

For Windows, that tipping point is almost now, if you have money for a top-end tablet that runs real Windows 8. It might be a tad slow for a many purposes, but in a year or two it'll be there.

I can't wait for a dockable tablet to replace my dockable laptop (which replaced my desktop a year ago).

You're right that android and ios are 4 to 12 years off, though. I find it hard to believe that Microsoft is the only company that seems to have realized what is happening, even if they did overshoot and make some serious mistakes with Windows 8.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[jellomizer]

2015 the year that no one buys a Personal Desktop!

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Rhipf]

Actually, what they should have done is implement smarter mouse controls. If you swipe your finger across the screen (on a touch device) metro scrolls left to right (or right to left obviously). So why can't I click somewhere on the right of the screen and drag the mouse to the left to scroll sideways? Only when using a mouse do you have to use the scroll bar at the bottom of the screen to scroll (or use the mouse wheel).
It would seem more logical to me if you converted the touch interface into analogous mouse controls.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[BronsCon]

Agreed! This is actually the first thing I tried to do in the developer preview, after having watched people interacting with the touch interface. I can see how they can *think* it would be less intuitive; I mean, how do you do 2- and 3-finger gestures with a single mouse cursor? But, then, how does a one-fingered man do them at all? He can still, at least, open apps, click buttons, and move stuff around, though. Yes, a single finger and the mouse cursor should behave identically; hell, make right-click behave like a 2-finger gesture (making a 2-finger tap or sequence of taps register as a right-click or sequence thereof) and do the same for middle-clicks, for users with a clickable scroll-wheel or a 3rd button.

I'm sure my lack of degree in UX design has me missing something important, here, but I can't see how this would degrade the interface *at all*, other than maybe forcing MS to reassign 2- and 3-finger taps to different functions than they currently have. I'm not sure that would be a bad thing, especially if the interface becomes more intuitive in the process.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem with replacing a menu with a search function is, you have to have some clue about what you're searching for. With a menu that's not a problem, you can get an overview of everything quickly and easily. It was outright retarded of MS to ditch the menu. It's like keyboards, if MS had their way they'd get rid of keyboards entirely. Yes, menus and keyboards are "old" technology. Nevertheless, they both represent the best way of organising certain things, and the management at MS is clearly on drugs or mentally deficient for thinking there is a better way.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Alioth]

Not any more. I use my laptop for gaming (I plug it in when I get home). It gets 4 hours battery life when away from the charger, and is too thin to have an optical drive. You've not needed to buy a monstrous Alienware do game for a long time now. Sure there might be one or two games that will not run well enough, but fortunately they aren't the games I'm interested in.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

"You're either retarded, or you don't do anything useful with your computer....
Anyone who wants to do anything graphics-intensive would laugh at someone trying to push a laptop on them....
I hate idiots who think laptops are for gaming..."

Playing games and or making pretty pictures is not "doing something useful"

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

The Asus Republic of Gamer laptops are great gaming machines that have really high end graphics, great cooling (friend had one and it never got hot to the touch), and nice upgrade-ability (some come with two hard drive bays). *However* they lose major points in the laptop side because they are large, heavy, and have really poor battery life.

I was considering getting one until I remembered what a pain it is to travel with a "desktop replacement" laptop and opted for a lighter and more efficient model that'll do 95% of what I need.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

I couldn't help noticing that you included "high-end gaming" in your list of "work and productivity" applications. Exactly what do you classify games as? Work, productivity, or both? Just to nitpick a bit...

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

It's only worth it for those bearded, overweight souls who want to defile themselves with Unix.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[unixisc]

There was a time I loathed UNIX, but Microsoft letting down their RISC platforms (Alpha & MIPS), and most recently, the forced Windows 8 UI change drove me to this. Yeah, I could have gone Linux, but had issues w/ it in the past.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[flappinbooger]

" And Windows 8 as is is ONLY oriented towards tablets"
false.

false

I recently fixed a Surface Pro 2 tablet for a client of mine. He had a VPN client installed which blew up the wifi when the recent MS update went through which updated ***EVERYTHING*** on the tablet.

It isn't TOTALLY bad. It isn't good either. It's way too thick, too heavy, too hot. The screen is very nice I'll give it that.

The OS is annoying and frustrating and - for the life of me - purposely and consistently inconsistent. Follow me there? It's like it just does things differently for no reason. Bring up the "jewels" menu and then "settings" while in the tile desktop and stuff is one way, bring up the same menu while in the old school desktop and it is another way.

I've worked on a few desktop and laptops with windows 8 and the VERY first thing I do on FIRST BOOT is install the 3rd party taskbar hack. Working on this surface is the first time I've taken the time to figure out how to get around on 8. Because it's actually a tablet.

Windows 8 IS geared only towards tablets, for some reason it mistakenly gets installed on laptops and desktops without touch screens.

If someone gave me a surface pro I would sell it and buy an ASUS transformer or just a 10" galaxy note with a keyboard cover.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

About two hours running everything at 100%. How long can your desktop stay unplugged for?

The point is portability. When you grow up and have responsibilities and travels of your own, you'll understand.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you got a defective laptop. Get a replacement under warranty.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[TheDarkMaster]

You are a really really stupid and insistent troll, impressive... When I need portability, I just use my netbook (eight hours or more of battery). And when I want to play games or do something CPU intensive, I go to the desktop. I simply use the best tool for each task, rather than a asshole troll who not content with being stupid still try to offend those who are not stupid.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

Says the guy who needs to have multiple PCs for each contingency. My laptop gets two hours *AT 100%* use for such things as modelling, rendering, compiling models, playing games, whatever. If I am only web browsing or typing something up, it's running on he Intel HD graphics and I get six or more hours out of it.

In addition, you posted a message, one with questions no less, and scream troll when I respond to them because the answers shut you down and you are unable to deal with it any other way than throwing a childish tantrum. The only troll I see here is you.

Again, once you're a man with real responsibility and commitments, you might understand.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[TheDarkMaster]

Ahhh I get it now. You are a "pigeon chess player". I do not need to say nothing else.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because you can't. You're uninformed and you know it.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Luckyo]

That's my point. You can have a laptop, as in something you'd want in your lap that is portable. And then you have desktop replacement machines which are bulky, heavy, heat up if you put them in your lap (blocking the cooling vents at least in part if not sitting on a flat, non cloth surface). Basically they are portable desktops.

But there is no machine that I know of that combines both. At least, not yet.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

Reading comprehension fail, you only addressed one of the points, so what was the cost of training? I mean you've obviously never done the process if you actually believe technically competent people need training to learn how to update an iOS device. Moreover the fact that service exists doesn't mean people use it, so how many people actually use it? Come on, let's see your evidence.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

So, because one of my examples is, in your eyes, invalid, despite all of my valid examples, my entire point is invalidated?

No, I never said that. In fact I even clarified that due to my inexperience with Android I can't comment on that and your point may very well be completely valid with respect to Android.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

I'm talking about the one he mentioned, that Clevo. I agree, my macbook pro can play almost all games reasonably enough, but it's not one of those high powered (relatively speaking) gaming laptops.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[exomondo]

It's under the all applications part of the start screen, it does have a tile - it just isn't pinned to the main screen - because it's added to the start screen the same way it is added to the start menu in Windows 7 (that little arrow at the bottom of the start screen reveals all installed applications). Also you could have always used search to find it, it comes back to these people who are so indoctrinated into the Windows way of doing things that any change there renders them baffled. If you were to install Office on OS X you wouldn't get a dock icon or desktop icon either, you have to browse the application folder (start menu folder on Windows) or use Spotlight (search on Windows) to find it.

I don't like the start screen on desktops but its replacement of the start menu has proven just how incompetent and dependent on one specific way of doing things many computer users are.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

I never mentioned anything about a Clevo. I have an Alienware laptop and it will play all of the latest games at maximum settings with ease..

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Anonymous Coward]

He's just jealous that "his" special domain of computers is now understood by a far wider audience and he's trying to posture himself as though that weren't true.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[lsatenstein]

Among dinosaurs who still use desktop computers, instead of laptops or tablets, I guess.

You're either retarded, or you don't do anything useful with your computer.

Anyone who wants to do anything graphics-intensive would laugh at someone trying to push a laptop on them.

I hate idiots who think laptops are for gaming. They go buy the crappy $200 Walmart bargain, then wonder why it won't play BF4.

For you, a desktop computer is a toy. But for me, with 7 disks, and different applications per disk, and with the amount of coding in differing languages, and my need to use a real keyboard, so as to net get carpal tunnel problems, and with a 23 inch monitor and speed, the laptop is the toy. My smartphone is a current Nexus, and I still need glasses to read the fine fine text.

My smartphone is my voicemail and voice support and my price comparison friend. When I am about to purchase a product at xyz, I do my due dilligence and do price/guarantee comparisons.

Laptops are too flimsy, overheat and are just a device onto which to spill coffee, to use to play with social media and to end-up with another several hundred dollar purchase when the keytops suddenly fall off, or the laptop falls on the floor, breaking the hinge. My tablet (Samsung) for browsing the web, playing free-cell, for some emailing, but not for true work.

Re:Microsoft is wasting people's time

[Blaskowicz]

Whatever. If you give me a Windows 8 I will use the file manager to navigate to \Program Files so I can launch apps, a cmd.exe window to type shutdown -s -t 0 when I'm done, and a win+r box to run devmgmt.msc to check hardware/drivers or control ncpa.cpl if I need to check the network connection.

New NT kernel automatically implies Windows 9?

[Anonymous Coward]

"If this really is the next version of the Windows NT kernel, then we’re most likely looking at an early build of Windows 9 (Threshold) rather than Windows 8.2."

How does a new NT kernel automatically imply Windows 9? Windows 8.1 had a kernel version bump (6.3) and it wasn't called Windows 9.

Re:New NT kernel automatically implies Windows 9?

[Anonymous Coward]

It does not matter. Shitty OS will stay shitty OS. Nobody cares.

Start menu driver

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, the start menu is part of the "kernel" now. Such design, much engineer, wow very built.

But the real question is

[Anonymous Coward]

Will it break every time you touch it?

Re:But the real question is

[Anonymous Coward]

No. But it will be visible on tablets too : it will require to click on it with a real mouse to work. If you try to press it with your finger, it will popup a window asking if you want to allow your finger to touch the start button...

duh

Re:But the real question is

[imatter]

You have to touch yours?

Re:But the real question is

[Tablizer]

Will it break every time you touch it?

That could be fun: BSOD fireworks while playing Bach on your MSablet.

Re:But the real question is

[CanHasDIY]

The return of Clippy:

It looks like you're trying to use a finger on a touchscreen.

Would you like some help?

- continue without help

- wipe the grease/food/semen off your nasty hand

- install a different but equally broken driver

- kick Steve Ballmer in the berries

Re:But the real question is

[techno-vampire]

Well, I suppose that I could touch mine if I wanted to. I don't, but that's because my girlfriend always enjoys watching how it reacts when she touches it.

That better be a free update

[Anonymous Coward]

What? Need an explanation?

Fuck Tiles!

[organgtool]

And yet this menu ends up being a hermaphrodite of the useful menu from Windows 7 and the tiles of the Windows 8 home screen. Seriously, these tiles are about the worst interface I have ever used. The entire interface is inconsistent: tiles are different sizes, different background colors, some have text while others don't, some tile icons are silhouettes while others are full-color, some tiles contain pictures instead of icons, and some tiles are animated. The whole thing reminds me a more professional version of some random schmuck's GeoCities page circa 1998. Microsoft: just stop it with the tiles and provide something consistent and usable!

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[drinkypoo]

The whole thing reminds me a more professional version of some random schmuck's GeoCities page circa 1998.

Not GeoCities, AOL. Circa what, 1991?

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[geekoid]

I suspect you just like to hate MS and anything they change.
Tiles make accessing everything a lot easier.
Easier to search, 1 click access to everything I use even semi-regularly.
I don't want the start button back. I'ts baffling to me anyone would want it back, at best it's two additional clicks, at worse it led to hunting around looking for something.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[unixisc]

Not just that, they are huge, fixed sizes & occupy a disproportionate area on the screen. Hit the Windows key again, and you get a desktop, but just 1. Oh, and when you add new apps from the Windows store, they are invisible, unless you pan down and get it added to the Metro screen

Re: Fuck Tiles!

[Anonymous Coward]

While a mut of the 2 is worlds better then just the abortion that is metro, why staple an abortion to a working product? Metro is undiscoverable, everything is in an invisible tab off of the edge, and that edge changes from app to app. Everywhere they want to teach you to swipe from the top to get any usefull info from your phone, except in IE where it's from the bottom, cause it's trendy to have the url bar at the bottom??? *psyduck* And how out of touch do you have to be to say "who would ever want to see the time, battery or signal status on a cell phone, let's hide that shit"?

But there is one, and only one reason that Microsoft will never succeed in the "always ready" space. I'm typing this on my android phone because my windows 8.1 tablet decided as I'm walking to the bathroom, that now would be a good time to start installing 7 updates. In the time that it took me to shit and read slashdot, it has installed 6. Microsoft product stays in pocket, competitor proves own worth, se la vie.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[JDeane]

Yeah that about sums it up for me...

Sticking with Windows 7 until Android is more mature on the desktop then if MS is still on it's "It needs to look like a clown drank a bunch of paint and puked..." kick then yeah switching I will go.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Tablizer]

I don't mind tiles as long as they stay put. I'll get used to where things are and as long as they stay that way, I don't care if a Goatse interface is used. (Well, okay, not that far, I got carried away.)

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost none of that is true

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Anonymous Coward]

>It's baffling to me anyone would want Metro, at best it's two additional clicks, at worse it led to hunting around looking for something. Things that were 1 click away before, things that were one right click before, and things that didn't take up 1/4 the start menu to launch a goddamn app.*

*FTFY

Also update notifications that let me ignore them and not a big fucking bar across the screen making my server look like a cell phone giving me the option of "Would you like to take your server down now in the middle of the day or would you like to do it tomorrow at the exact same bad time? Also before you pick, please use this stick to fuck yourself".

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[epyT-R]

Ah yes, the 'hater' fallacy. If you don't agree with the current trend, you must hate all change.

All that's needed is a simple editable menu for application links. It's not that hard.

How is searching for tiles easier than searching a list in the menu? If you hated doing it in the start menu, you should hate doing it with the tiles, with all that extra eye panning and scrolling. As far as text search goes, users shouldn't need it because your menu is neat and orderly and easy to read. Sticking a search box onto widgets just says loudly and clearly that the design has failed.

If all you want is one click access, add some shortcuts to the shortcut bar...oh right, they broke that too.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[dissy]

It's probably worth noting that in the Windows 8 and Windows 8.1 "leaks", technical previews, and consumer previews - ALL had the ability to enable a start menu by changing a registry key from 0 to 1, and ALL had that option removed in the final builds.

I have no reason to believe 9 will be different until after the grand master image is released to OEMs.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, who the fuck thought it would be a good idea paying H1B's for 3 years to rewrite the exchange management console "on the internet". It's a good thing they made up for the missing features with AJAX, it's better now....

Just like they shittied up outook '13 to reach parity with hotmail.com.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Billly Gates]

What if they are like the IOS applets in MacOSX where the emphasis is on the desktop?

As long as things do not go all full screen closed door syndrome I do not see it as a problem

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[MyNicknameSucks]

Just pointing something out ...

I've seen people complain that Microsoft doesn't innovate, doesn't try new things.

And I've now seen people excoriate MS for trying new things and trying to innovate.

And, FWIW, some some aspects of Metro have been popping up elsewhere -- I don't think Metro has been an unmitigated disaster. At the venerable NYT, http://nyt.com/ useful bits can "slide in" from the margins when you move the mouse over to the left side of the window. Tiles are the lingua franca of The Toronto Sun, http://torontosun.com/ .

  MS, however, did screw up some things. Well ... a lot of things with Metro for the desktop.

First, it's a UI designed for media consumption (and single- and double-tasking) -- that ship has sailed. Phones, tablets, and, to a lesser extent, notebooks (and, in my house, the WiiU) are for media consumption. Desktops are for productivity.

Second, Metro is actually pretty decent when you figure out how the keyboard shortcuts (win-key +s for searching, alt-tab to switch windows, alt-f4 to shut a window, etc.). But it's pretty awful if you go at it with a mouse -- and MS did not, at all, make this clear.

Third, the Start button thing is ... almost, but not quite, a red herring. If you're looking for a program that's two or three menus deep, good luck to you. It is usually faster (if you're a decent typist, at least) to hit the win key and type the name of the program. If it's a program you use frequently, it should probably be pinned to the taskbar. I've watched my kids on the Win8.x desktop -- the only time they bother with the Start button is when they log out. I think the problem here is that we've had nearly two decades of living with Start and it's proving to be a tough habit to break ...

Fourth, and probably worst of all, MS foisted Metro and its apps on users in situations where it shouldn't have. If you were writing up an email in Outlook (desktop program) and wanted to open the calculator to check your math, it defaulted to a Metro, full-screen, four function calculator. That's stupid. MS has two built-in picture viewers, both relatively equivalent. But, using the default programs app, the Metro app can be set as the default app for several times more file types than the desktop app ... even though the desktop app can open those files and be set as the default viewer through Explorer. That's bad. And some OS settings can only be set through Metro -- and that's inexcusable since Metro is not supposed to be for "power users". And there are lots of other goofy places where the Metro app is the default choice, even when launched through the desktop.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know, I think the tiles are sort of a toy. But that's OK, because for most purposes the start menu and the metro start screen are the same. Who clicks on stuff or drills through the start menu with their mouse anyway? The way to use both is Windows Key, then start typing. Want notepad? Windows key, note, enter. Works on both start menu and start screen. It is crazy to go clicking away through all that stuff... Oh, and for all you "my ancient IBM clickety keyboard doesn't have a Windows key you inconsiderate clod" types - fine, press CTRL-ESC then. Same thing.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Anonymous Coward]

>Second, Metro is actually pretty decent when you figure out how the keyboard shortcuts (win-key +s for searching, alt-tab to switch windows, alt-f4 to shut a window, etc.). But it's pretty awful if you go at it with a mouse -- and MS did not, at all, make this clear.

So's BASH.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[nine-times]

How is it not the same number of clicks? In the best case, in both systems, it's two clicks. You click once on the start button, and then once again on the item you'd like to launch. In either case, that's assuming that you want to launch something that's going to come up right away, and you aren't going to go hunting through other items.

Of course, in both systems you could cut out clicks entirely by pressing the Windows key on the keyboard and typing what you want.

It seems to me that the big difference is that Microsoft hid the button, meaning you had to hover in the correct place before you could click. Then the menu that came up brought up, by default, showed a bunch of tablet apps, and not the desktop apps that you probably want, in a way that completely broke the context you were working in. Every time you wanted to launch something, you were thrown into a different little virtual world with no common spacial orientation, and where all the buttons behaved differently.

It may not seem strange to you once you've gotten used to it, but the normal and appropriate reaction when a person first encounters this sort of thing is to feel unpleasantly disoriented. A good UI designer would know that it was bad, and that users would be unhappy with the change. A good UI designer would also know that hidden hover buttons and hover menus are not generally desirable.

Or were you just trolling?

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Anonymous Coward]

Notepad? [Start]->progs->accs->notepad. NOT start, move mouse to bottom, wait for "More apps", scroll through list of help documents and shortcuts without related folders (cause folders are passe), get to N, make sure you don't miss it, click notepad.

Touchscreen keyboard? Touch text area, click floating icon, type.
On 8? Click text area, wait for nothing, click the keyboard button on the task bar, watch keyboard steal focus from work window, move keyboard out of the way, click text area again, move keyboard back, start typing.

The fact that you are suggesting that someone type into a GRAPHICAL user interface is to be abhored. If I have to type to get shit done in your GUI, you've made a roadblock, not and access lane.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[jez9999]

Tiles can hold useful information that changes though. I dunno about you, but I always like to see what the current weather is every time I go to open an application.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[ZeroPly]

The tiles are a nice idea, but are only useful if they are live. So if you go to the Start Menu, and the "Resource Monitor" tile is red, and shows 85% CPU use, sure - that's a good thing because you probably should click it. Or an email tile that shows high priority messages received. But this is too complicated a UI task for Microsoft to get correct.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[umdesch4]

Too funny. After all these years, I somehow never knew that CTRL-ESC = Windows Key. I'm on an "ancient IBM" keyboard right now (a Model M from 1984), and I just tried it. Massive forehead smack ensued when I discovered it worked. So, honestly, no sarcasm intended, thanks for that tip!

What I miss the most is the classic start menu where you can completely create your own sub-groups in a hierarchy. When I'm trying to remember which utility I wanted to use, but the name was something goofy that I haven't used in a year, it's nice to be able to go Start->Audio Tools->Transcoders-> {browse list, and "oh yeah, it was this..."}->BeHappy

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Uberbah]

I've seen people complain that Microsoft doesn't innovate, doesn't try new things.

And I've now seen people excoriate MS for trying new things and trying to innovate.

You seem to be assuming that "innovative" and "good" are synonyms when it comes to products. A smartwatch powered by static electricity might be innovative, but it would be a shitty product if you had to rub it on your sweater just to see what time it is.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[geekoid]

It's not a fallacy when the hater provides nothing objective other then 'its teh suxors.'

Tiles:
Easy to see what you need based on color alone, quicker then reading.
Easier to organize
hot keyable
If you aren't using search in either windows 7 or 8, you aren't really using the OS well.
win f isn't hard to use. I suppose you could have a menu with a complete list of every file, but that's seem pretty cumbersome.
You can adjust there size , or not, depending on whats easier.
I don't use the OS to look at the OS, I use it to quickly get what I need to do work or play games.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[geekoid]

", fixed sizes"
what? Are you lying? becasue almost nothing you said is true.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[X0563511]

The problem isn't that they are trying, or not trying. It's that they are trying the same shit again, even after finding out it doesn't work (community bitch-slapping that W8/W8.1 has, atrocious phone sales, etc) and saying "Oops! Next time we'll get it. Oh, and you'll have to pay all over again."

I have zero interest in Metro, or the whole tiles motif. They function well enough for touch interfaces, even if I don't like their aesthetic take on it... but meanwhile back in the real world, people don't get a lot of work on touch devices (excepting niche cases, which is exactly why it's a bad idea for general-purpose use)

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah yes, the 'hater' fallacy. If you don't agree with the current trend, you must hate all change.

It's not a fallacy. Since the days of Windows 3.1, these assholes have existed in large numbers.

All that's needed is a simple editable menu for application links. It's not that hard.

Actually, while the original Start Menu was editable, few people actually knew how or even bothered to do it.

How is searching for tiles easier than searching a list in the menu?

Because every single god damn program installed on the traditional start menu had it's own folder, usually filled with a half-dozen other icons you don't really give a shit about besides the actually program shortcut. The Start Screen does away with the folders and just gives you the icons.

If all you want is one click access, add some shortcuts to the shortcut bar...oh right, they broke that too.

Pin to the Taskbar, you stupid motherfucker.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[execthis]

Windows 8 with Classic Shell is the way to go. Even with Windows 7 Classic Shell was already the way to go.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Just Some Guy]

I'd almost buy that, except people generally seem to like the Mac OS interface which hasn't had a meaningful Start button in the Windows sense, since OS 9 or so. You don't have to make an exact clone of XP for people to enjoy it.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Uberbah]

It's not a fallacy when the hater provides nothing objective other then 'its teh suxors.'

It's a fallacy when you're ignoring the reasons surrounding "its teh suxors". There was no exploding gas tank in the Pinto, just a bunch of Ford haters....

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[techno-vampire]

And I've now seen people excoriate MS for trying new things and trying to innovate.

I have no idea how true it is, but I've seen at least one person comment (maybe on a blog) that Windows 8 reminds him of a cross between Windows 7 and Gnome 3. If so, it gives me even more reasons to be glad that I use Linux and Xfce. (I started out with Gnome 2, but switched to Xfce when I read about what Gnome 3 was going to be like.)

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[techno-vampire]

It's not a fallacy. Since the days of Windows 3.1, these assholes have existed in large numbers.

I don't think that word means what you think it does.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[jbolden]

Tiles unlike icons are supposed to be

a) live so they are presenting useful summary information
b) variable in size, so the amount can vary

The legacy stuff doesn't make use of the Window8 and Microsoft unfortunately itself doesn't install; by default some of the really cool applications that use Windows 8; like their Bing based applications.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[just_a_monkey]

Notifications like those are things that should show up in the system tray, not only if I happen to go to the Start Menu.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[sjames]

It's not a fallacy when the hater provides nothing objective other then 'its teh suxors.'

But the person you called a hater rattled off a fair sized list of what was wrong.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[JMJimmy]

Slide-ins on websites have been around a LOT longer than Metro. I did one based on Fallout's pipboy interface back in the 90s, does that mean I influenced Microsoft? They come and go though are generally abandoned after a time because users didn't know they were there, they interfered with navigation, and/or they just plain annoyed users. As to the Toronto Sun, it's a fucking tabloid their bread and butter is sensationalist in-your-face over-the-top garbage.

When I see the Toronto Sun's interface I think of this: http://b2b.cbsimg.net/blogs/th...

First, it's a UI designed for media consumption (and single- and double-tasking)

Yet the reason Microsoft became the dominant OS was because of business uses. Businesses do not want systems built for media consumption. They want productivity. More and more offices are going to multiple screen systems or "ultra wide" screens because they're finding productivity gains for having multiple windows visible at once instead of switching between apps.

Second, Metro is actually pretty decent when you figure out how the keyboard shortcuts

That's the definition of a bad interface when you have to go to an alternate interface (keyboard) to get it to do what you want.

Third, the Start button thing is ... almost, but not quite, a red herring

I could have cared less about the start menu if I could disable the start screen. I'd long since abandoned the start menu in favour of Launchy

Fourth...

Exactly right. Full screen was a bad idea period, changing the bounding on windows so the flow below the start menu when maximized, and those effing trigger zones drive me nuts. I don't know how many times I've gone for desktop peek or to minimize all and been prevented by the Charms bar - it's gotten a little better with the latest update, now it shows up but doesn't prevent you from clicking unless you move up/down but that still causes issues on occasion.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Tablizer]

How about if classic Windows has a Start button, and Tiles has a Stop button (as in Stop the F*ing Tiles).

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't tell if that's sarcasm. "It's raining in Dublin, fuck writing a paper, fire up some angry birds!"

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[steelfood]

This is the one thing I simply don't understand with Metro (actually I do understand why they did it, but how they thought it'd fly is completely beyond me). There's something called a desktop. It does exactly what every phone interface does. With a bit of modification (expand the icon size and make it a widget of sorts), it does exactly what Metro aspires to do.

There's something called Programs (or All Programs) in the start menu. It lists every program out there with an icon and some text. Give it its own button outside of the start menu, and make the list show up on the desktop, and that's pretty much feature parity with every other mobile OS.

There's something called the taskbar. It can auto-hide. It also has a system tray to hold commonly-used icons. Google put a search box in the Windows taskbar. It's charms without the mess.

Sure, lock down the Programs menu so that only there are only links to applications and not to help files or pdfs. Sure, lock down the system tray so that only three or four of the most important system tray icons only show up. Or better yet, let the user decide whether they want to see the Microsoft-approved minimal interface or the customized clusterfuck interface.

But it's all there. Everything that Windows 8 purports to do, everything that's "different" about it, is just more of the same. Windows 8 hasn't redefined the interface goals. It's not revolutionary in what's exposed and what's hidden away. It's just harder for the user to get to the same places. And different. And harder. And incomplete, which makes it even harder to use. And the thing is, Windows doesn't need to change. It just needs to do what it's doing, but better. But they went ahead and changed it anyway. And it's worse (what would you expect?).

And here's what gets me. Why go through all this fuss about Metro? Why completely turn the Windows world on its head (by removing its namesake from the paradigm)? Why risk losing that userbase? Why test how strong Linux on the desktop currently is? There's a lot of risk for very little to no reward.

Is the few dollars made on integrated web services worth the entire Windows userbase taking a good hard look at Libre/OpenOffice on Linux? Is the few extra bucks on app royalties worth alienating a whole industry of device makers and PC builders, not to mention application developers who suddenly now have to pay the Windows tax? They had enough trouble getting people to upgrade from XP to 7 (let's not even bring up Vista). How did they think creating an inferior operating system with negative adoption incentives would stop or even slow OSS adoption? Did they think that the non-adoption of Winodws 8 was somehow going to lead to anything other than a non-adoption of Windows Phone? If anything, the stink from Windows 8/RT (especially RT) is spoiling Windows Phone.

Windows ME sorta made sense (old DOS codebase with 2K look and feel). Vista sorta made sense (XP but everything upgraded). Those two failed in the execution, but at least they had a noble purpose. But Windows 8 is just schizophrenic. They changed everything that shouldn't have been touched. They kept all of the UI aspects that should have been changed. They nailed everything down that should've been left customizable. And they allowed customization to the things that should've been nailed down (who the fuck thought it was a good idea to let app developers run wild with the Metro tiles?).

They should've scrapped Windows 8. Disowned it. Buried it in a landfill in the middle of the desert. Burned off its branches in the repository. They've done it before (Windows Phone 7, Windows Phone 7.5, PlaysForSure, hell, even Windows RT). Revert to 7 and patch the good changes from 8 and call it 9. Sticking with the dysfunctional aspects of 8 just because they've suddenly become too stubborn to admit a mistake, that'll be worse than if they had used Microsoft Bob as the UI base of XP. Hell, they'd probably have better success using Microsoft Bob as the UI base of Windows 9. The way things are going, the year of Linux on the Desktop won't be too far off.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Anonymous Coward]

No! a cross of windows 7 and gnome 3 would be good, w8 is shit. If the desktop apps shrank down into tiles when you hit the overview and had an api to control the tiles and window contents for apps that don't implement it would be sane. The would also be a standard start menu. So you only get tiles for apps you're running and can navigate entirely on the taskbar if you want. we got balmer diarrhea sprayed at us any time we accidently click the button formally known as start. I now call it the face slap button, cause that's how i feel every time i click it....

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[epyT-R]

Text menu with small icon:
easy to see what you need based on color or picture alone, with the text right beside it.
small and unobtrusive to the rest of your workflow.
easy to organize, drag and drop where you want, or sort by alpha.

If you are typing stuff into widgets instead of finding what is needed with a few clicks, you aren't using the GUI very well..or it's badly designed. At that point, I'd prefer a command prompt...that doesn't suck.

Sizing is an unknown for win9 at this point. I hope I can just turn them off. I don't need huge idiocracy style icons, nor shitty mobile apps on my desktop. I want actual productive desktop applications and information density.
I don't use the OS to look at the OS, I use it to quickly get what I need to do work or play games, so I don't need pretty tiles, lots of white space, and brain dead tablet style workflow. I prefer it without the jarring shifts between the full screen menu and the desktop. The huge vista/7 start menu sucks too, just less than windows 8.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[eye_blinked]

Microsoft is stuck in a cycle of providing pointless gui bling to sell new versions of the operating system. Microsoft, spend some serious new talent on core applications instead. You know, the stuff that actually does something.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[epyT-R]

Just because people disagree with you are in large numbers doesn't mean they're wrong.

I know it was editable. That's what was great about it. It could do everything metro did, just minus all the gay crap. My menu doesn't have many of those folders. You know why? Because I edited it! Fixing this does not require a whole new design meant for fixed use devices.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Anonymous Coward]

Out of curiosity, why make a question out of the date when the image you link to lists the respective dates in very large letters?

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[JDeane]

Windows 8 with Classic Shell is the way to go. Even with Windows 7 Classic Shell was already the way to go.

I have installed Classic Shell on at least 5 different Windows 8 machines. Love it as it fixes Windows 8 into a usable desktop OS. Now if only Windows 8 came with some of those features out of the box....

Not going out to buy Windows 8 to replace 7 though since 8 offers me nothing but a problem to fix. (I think 8 is probably fantastic on a touch screen.)

The popularity of Classic Shell should be some sort of clue....

Honestly I don't use Classic Shell on Windows 7 though, never even occurred to me to try it, already works the way I expect it too?

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[exomondo]

All that's needed is a simple editable menu for application links. It's not that hard.

Why is that "needed"? How on earth do you manage on platforms like OS X that don't have a start menu?

As far as text search goes, users shouldn't need it because your menu is neat and orderly and easy to read. Sticking a search box onto widgets just says loudly and clearly that the design has failed.

Search is more efficient than clicking, scrolling and browsing lists of things. That's why it's included in dialogs like Windows' Control Panel, OS X's System Preferences and Ubuntu's Control Center.

I'm not a fan of the start screen on desktop computers but then again the start menu is too inefficient anyway so it being replaced makes little difference.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Anonymous Coward]

Tiles unlike icons are supposed to be

a) live so they are presenting useful summary information b) variable in size, so the amount can vary

You've been here long enough to read through the marketspeak:

1) live so they are presenting advertisements
2) variable in size, so the amount of revenue we charge the "sponsors" can vary.

FTFY.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Curunir_wolf]

Second, Metro is actually pretty decent when you figure out how the keyboard shortcuts (win-key +s for searching, alt-tab to switch windows, alt-f4 to shut a window, etc.). But it's pretty awful if you go at it with a mouse -- and MS did not, at all, make this clear.

First, it's not called "Metro" - that was an internal code-name. Microsoft calls it "Modern UI". That's the name of the Start screen / Tiles paradigm. Second, those keyboard shortcuts were available since Windows XP, it's nothing new. But all the win-key shortcuts are useless if you don't have a Windows Keytm. And the "hot corners" are pretty awful. Sometimes they just won't pop-up or take forever, and it's much worse if you're in an RDP session. The Start *button* DOES help with that.

What most people that have tried it haven't noticed yet is all the stuff that gone or broken. Windows backup? Gone. Get used to File History - and adding a bunch of folders to your "Libraries", because that's the only place File History checks. There is no way to set preferred wireless networks. No more "Home", "Work", or "Public" networks, just "Private" and "Public". That's cool - but Windows decides by itself which one it is. And if it guesses wrong? The only way to fix is dig through the registry and figure out the right numeric to use for the right network connection. VERY annoying if Windows guesses your company's VPN is a "Public" network.

Don't even get me started on "Windows account" logons, OneDrive, and Media Center.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[bondsbw]

Sure, except Microsoft officially announced that the Start menu was coming back.

I guess I shouldn't expect an iOS 8 or Android L either.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[jbolden]

Sure that's possible. It is also possible to have useful information. Many of the icons on my iPhone present a number which indicates important information, none of which is advertising. Windows takes this much further.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Harlequin80]

And I must be the odd one out because I really really struggle with the Mac OS interface. In particular I HATE the menu at the top being which ever application is active.

I do have to admit though that I have only had very short stints with Macs so it is probably completely unfair. I like my windows 7 interface a lot but I like my Mint Cinnamon interface more. As soon as I turn off hot corners!

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Harlequin80]

I don't know any serious business that is not multi-screen now. We have been for over 6 years now. You simply lose too much productivity if you have to keep pulling one program over the top of another. All our machines are pushing dual Dell 26" IPS screens. For a while we used them vertically but now pretty much everyone had them horizontal and is splitting it into 4 windows.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[shutdown -p now]

Can you give the number of a Win8.1 build (leaked, preview, whatever) that could have Start Menu enabled via reg key?

Early leaked builds of Win8 had that, yes. It was actually the other way around - it came with Start Menu and everything else on by default, and a reg key was necessary to force it to go Metro. Then, eventually, Metro was made the default, and the reg key was ripped out. It was not there in consumer preview of Win8, nor in any build that followed.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[shutdown -p now]

Except that size is user-controlled, and "liveliness" can also be disabled.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Excelcia]

Windows 8 in two words: Microsoft Bob.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Tough Love]

Android just needs a proper window manager now.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[gl4ss]

yeah it's really nice when you have 20 notifications on the screen flashing designed by designers who only have the goal of you clicking the app open again.

basically that's the only design goal app development committees have - and they'll try if it works by tracking if you click it.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[wildstoo]

^This.

Exactly this is what's wrong with Windows 8.1. I really don't care about Modern UI, I can live with it or there are alternatives, but the weird selection of changed/removed features is what really bugs me about Windows 8.1.

Also, it seems you don't have to registry hack to switch between Public and Private networks, but the interface to do so is hardly intuitive.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[dissy]

My notes on the registry hack reference:
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/q...

I do remember using that in the dev preview, but I didn't muck around much in the consumer preview at all.
The confusing way they word the first paragraph must have been what lead me to believe the same trick would work in the consumer preview as well.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[ZeroPly]

Hence my disclaimer - "But this is too complicated a UI task for Microsoft to get correct."

You need, at a minimum, the option to set a particular tile active or inactive. Someone who's in Office 2013 most of the time probably doesn't need their temperature monitor displaying six different measurements every time they go to the menu. On the other hand, a gamer might like that. If the amount of information on the tile can be configured, even better.

It's a nice idea, the real issue here is that Microsoft doesn't make their UI customizable. If you don't like tiles, why shouldn't you have the option to remove them?

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[tompaulco]

How is searching for tiles easier than searching a list in the menu?

Even in previous Windows versions, the default display in folders was to show icons. The first thing I did was change that to list view and unhide extensions. Trying to find an item in a list is an order of magnitude easier than trying to find some splotch of color among 100 different splotches of color. Microsoft should do some UX interviews sometime.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[serviscope_minor]

First, it's not called "Metro" - that was an internal code-name. Microsoft calls it "Modern UI".

Doesn't mean it isn't called "Metro". That's what most[*] people call it, because calling it Modern UI is another typically microsofty utterly generic name.

[*] most excluding those who don't call it "that wretched heap of junk" or some other less than flattering term.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[tompaulco]

Tiles is not innovation, it is just copying.
To use a car analogy, using tiles on the desktop is like replacing the steering wheel, pedals, radio knobs, light switches, climate control knobs and shifter in a car with an Atari joystick because it worked so great for playing Pole Position.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Alioth]

Search is more efficient when you know what you're looking for. The big deal about the start menu is that it is discoverable (and it's discoverable without being jarring, or having a "user experience").

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[unixisc]

The sizes come in 3 sizes for some icons, and 2 for others. There is no way I can reduce the size of the tiles to be really small squares that I can just line up on one side. Yeah, same was true of icons, but at least they were small enough.

Other thing - I did install classic shell, but classic shell doesn't get rid of the accidental charms bar on your right popping up accidentally either if your cursor goes too far right, or sometimes, for no reason at all. It was frustrating working w/ it. I finally bit the bullet - had a PC-BSD CD that I had picked up from LinuxFest a few weeks ago. With some difficulty, installed it, and now Windows 8.1 is a thing of the past on my laptop. Am ironing out some rough edges, but otherwise, it works fine for what I do - e-mails, web browsing and FreeCiv.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[staalmannen]

I still hope that the plasma desktop from KF5 finally will make KDE a real shell replacement on Windows. There is experimental support for this in the KDE4 builds, but as I have understood it KF5/Qt5 will enhance support significantly. If this is the case I will definitely put KDE on every machine when people want me to "fix" their Windows 8 machines (and refuse a proper OS).

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[JMJimmy]

Very much so, our offices are up to 3x23" screens for the top 1/3rd. My home computer I setup with a dropzone program with a 3x2x3 window setup on a 30" screen with a 19" side screen... back in 2006. Only time I go back to a single screen/window is on a laptop and even then I'll run a 2/3rd by 1/3rd windowed setup for gaming etc.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[david_thornley]

I've been giving Microsoft credit for innovation. I find the WP7/WP8/Metro interface unattractive and unappealing, but at least it isn't another iOS/Android clone. I'm not blaming them for it. I'm blaming them for foisting a bad UI on their main customer base.

A couple of quotes from my son, who's been using a W8 laptop: "The only things I don't like look like they're deliberate design choices." "The more I use Windows 8 the more I like Linux."

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Anonymous Coward]

On OS X, the application folder in the dock functions very similarly to the Start Menu. There's also Launchpad, which is a fullscreen app launcher.

The traditional "mac way" of digging around in various folders to find your programs is cumbersome, so they provided alternatives.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[exomondo]

Search is more efficient when you know what you're looking for. The big deal about the start menu is that it is discoverable (and it's discoverable without being jarring, or having a "user experience").

So how do you manage on an operating system OS X then that doesn't have a start menu?

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[execthis]

Wow running a new desktop enviornment in Windows would be awesome but I can't imagine Microsoft not crapping its pants massively over this and blocking it every way possible.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[Alioth]

OS X is still discoverable. It has the functionally equivalent Applications folder in the finder.

Re:Fuck Tiles!

[exomondo]

And Windows has the same thing in the Start Menu folder in Explorer.

Microsoft craps its pants

[tuppe666]

2015 will be year of the Linux Desktop!

Guess you have not been paying attention, chromebooks are here and occupying all the top slots and rating on Amazon, making a killing in schools, and have a slew of new models out now, and not have Android compatibility...you know the OS that put iOS and windows in the ground...they even look like a mackbook air *winks*.

GNU/Linux continues to do very nicely as well.

Re:Microsoft craps its pants

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think it is safe say 'killing' and 'schools' in the same sentence. Enjoy being on the terrorist watch list.

Re:Microsoft craps its pants

[rsborg]

2015 will be year of the Linux Desktop!

Guess you have not been paying attention, chromebooks are here and occupying all the top slots and rating on Amazon, making a killing in schools, and have a slew of new models out now, and not have Android compatibility...you know the OS that put iOS and windows in the ground...they even look like a mackbook air *winks*.

GNU/Linux continues to do very nicely as well.

So where are your solid numbers (Amazon ratings and sales ranks don't specify models sold) ? And please let me know if I can use my Chromebook offline on my airplaine. Sorry, no way a Chromebook is replacing my Macbook anytime - I see you can't even view the movies you buy on the Google Play store offline [1] (ie, in an airplane - no that GoGo streaming is not allowed for movies) - what use is that?

[1] https://productforums.google.c...

Re:Microsoft craps its pants

[Anonymous Coward]

Those are all appliances. Show me a office computers, like the ones you use for presentations, viewing and creating documents, or developing applications. Linux has a strangle hold on the embedded market, but the office and workstation marking is a bit different.

Re:Microsoft craps its pants

[WaffleMonster]

Guess you have not been paying attention, chromebooks are here and occupying all the top slots and rating on Amazon, making a killing in schools, and have a slew of new models out now, and not have Android compatibility...you know the OS that put iOS and windows in the ground

Parent said desktop not dumb terminal.

Re:Microsoft craps its pants

[TheDarkMaster]

Look... After more than ten years using many, many Linux distros, my conclusion is that the linux desktop (linux server works fine, thank you) is still a work in progress and probably always will be, never ready for serious use. Because whenever I think my desktop is finally usable, some retarded change something fundamental (gnome team, seen them around?) and I have to fix it again. And even when it is working the overall desktop performance is always inferior to the performance of Windows on the same hardware.

Re:Microsoft craps its pants

[Malc]

Android compatibility...you know the OS that put iOS and windows in the ground

What's Androids share of total profits compared to iOS?

Re:Microsoft craps its pants

[nashv]

That would be the the inverse of the ratio of retards compared to sane people.

Re:Microsoft craps its pants

[Stuarticus]

Isn't this totally the wrong thread to complaint that Linux's weakness is a changing desktop in? What's next on your script, I'll bet it's wireless drivers.

Re:Microsoft craps its pants

[Malc]

Sadly the sane and smart people are being out-bred by the trash!

Stopped writing about this shitty OS

[Anonymous Coward]

When I am in the bathroom, I let you know.

Re:Nobody cares about this shitty OS

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely true, as long as you don't count the type of professionals who work in...Enterprise?

Re:Nobody cares about this shitty OS

[epyT-R]

Well the term 'professional' simply means someone who is paid. Since most businesses still use windows, you are wrong.

I hate morons

[Anonymous Coward]

If you look at some of the comments on that page, you get gems like the guy asking if the start button was the only reason someone didn't get Win8.

Sure, you can hack the OS to get a free start button, but that's not the point. You do NOT reward bad behavior, or the companies will never learn.

Chick-Fil-A won't sell you a sandwich without pickles? You're ok just pulling the pickles off? That's stupid. You complain to the manager to get the sandwich made correctly. If you never speak up, then they won't know what they're doing wrong.

The goal of any company SHOULD be to please their customers while making a tidy profit. The problem is that today's companies seem to be all about making an obscene profit while...wait...we have customers? Oh right. Our "customers" are the people who pay us to provide the data we mine from the people who pay us to use our products that don't do what they want them to.

Re:I hate morons

[Anonymous Coward]

Chick-Fil-A won't sell you a sandwich without pickles? You're ok just pulling the pickles off? That's stupid. You complain to the manager to get the sandwich made correctly. If you never speak up, then they won't know what they're doing wrong.

As a note to those who may have poor social skills, heeding the advice above will result in a sandwich with extra saliva (but no pickles).

Re:I hate morons

[gtall]

While that comment is true about some of today's companies, a bigger complaint I have is that every company wants to turn you into an annuity. I bought a light switch from Lowe's and Lowe's wanted to sell me an "owners agreement".

Customers have become Processed Cheese Food of Business School Product. BSP are the managers who graduated with their MBA and somehow believe this enables them to manage anything. So all the cookie cutter strategies to "retain customer loyalty" look the same because they are the same. BSP has a stock menu of options all directed at separating customers from their money, not providing something compelling customers would want to buy. To do that, they need to stop the high school sports long enough to take the courses that would get them into an engineering or a science school, then finish school, then work in industry until they can be productive. Right now, many companies are run by the moral equivalent of used car salesmen.

Even versions of Windows the good ones?

[subanark]

So, basically it is:
Even versions: try out new stuff. See what people like, and what they don't
Odd versions: remove the stuff that people didn't like, polish everything else.

Windows 1 & 2: Too young, didn't use
Windows 3: Lots of people used this. A good UI over DOS
Windows 4: Noooooo... can't play my games :(
Windows 5: Yes... it works, its great, it gets attacked my malware, but I'll just reinstall
Windows 6: WTF is this shit. Sooo slow. And the "security enhancements" just suck to work around.
Windows 7: Well it isn't as slow anymore, and it isn't as vulnerable to malware.
Windows 8: Where's my start menu? Do you think I'm some kind of kid with this interface?
Windows 9: The future will be better tomorrow (quote from Dan Quayle).

Re:Even versions of Windows the good ones?

[aitikin]

I'm kind of lost on your choice of numbering. I would say that even versions suck and odd versions are great, but I don't know which one your referencing with each number. In my eyes, it's safe to say that every other major one

I guess I've always been confused about the numbering. Considering Windows 3, then there was 95, 98, 98SE (Second Edition, which was rock solid IMHO), ME (which was so awful I can't blame them for trying to forget it ever happened), XP, Vista, then we have seven. Even if you discount 95-98SE as 1 version of Windows, that gives us, 4 (95-98SE), 5 (ME), 6 (XP), 7 (Vista), then Windows 7Guess I'm kinda lost. Or are we supposed to treat 95-ME as all one version? That'd be kinda idiotic considering ME was definitely way different (ME took real DOS away for the first time, in case you're unaware), and even in 9x Windows versions there were some serious differences.

Re:Even versions of Windows the good ones?

[aitikin]

Stupid me, should read "...every other major one is terrible."

Re:Even versions of Windows the good ones?

[Anonymous Coward]

You still fail to count properly because the non-NT kernels don't get counted into numbering.

NT->3.5 Because it looked like Windows 3.5

2K-> 4

XP->5

Vista->7

Windos 7 -> 7

Windows 8 -> 8

etc...

Re:Even versions of Windows the good ones?

[subanark]

Windows 4: Windows NT
Windows 5: XP
Windows 6: Vista

Yes, I know that some versions of the non-NT kernal in 4.0 (Windows 95 - Windows ME) are good.

My original post is meant more of a joke than anything else. I've selectively chosen data points to validate my claim.

Re:Even versions of Windows the good ones?

[Joe_Dragon]

95 all, 98 all and me are 9X
2000 is NT 5
XP is 6 or NT 5.1 should of been NT 6

Re:Even versions of Windows the good ones?

[LinuxIsGarbage]

You still fail to count properly because the non-NT kernels don't get counted into numbering.

NT->3.5 Because it looked like Windows 3.5

2K-> 4

XP->5

Vista->7

Windos 7 -> 7

Windows 8 -> 8

etc...

You Failed to count properly
NT 3.1
NT 3.5
NT 3.51
NT 4
NT 5.0 (Windows 2000)
NT 5.1 (WindowsXP)
NT 5.2 (Sever 2003 & XP 64)
NT 6.0 (Vista)
NT 6.1 (Seven)
NT 6.2 (Eight)

ChromeOS is supposedly Gentoo-based.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've come across some allegations that ChromiumOS and ChromeOS are supposedly Gentoo-based, which means that if that theory is correct, Linux in general has been overtaking Windows going by your comment.

Re:ChromeOS is supposedly Gentoo-based.

[koreanbabykilla]

um... you can build it to check it out. It is most surely Gentoo based.

Start Menu is not the problem...

[tuppe666]

Ok the start menu is *a* problem, but really it *the* problem is strategy of Metro and Microsoft store, and turning open computing into a closed electronic device. I suspect none of this is rolled back, but the same old metro repackaged into a more palatable form like you got with the start button, and the rest store/electronics device kept for *cough* security reasons.

Where is Android compatibility on my GNU/Desktop goddamit!!!..at least there is chromebooks and I don't have to continue with the windows tax...hell now Microsoft has to compete because of success of Linux on the Desktop. I guess I still don't pay on windows machines. http://www.theverge.com/2014/7...

Re:Start Menu is not the problem...

[chuckugly]

I wish I had mod points.

I don't care about the Start menu; I don't spend much time in there, and even if I did, if I can't figure something that simple out I should stick to plumbing. The really annoying thing is that every file association now has to be redone to stop bringing up Modern (Metro) apps, and I have to be careful to install the Desktop versions of software I want.

That is the PITA, but it's so minor that I still use Win 8.x because yes, it's better than 7 overall.

Re:Start Menu is not the problem...

[Anonymous Coward]

That is the PITA, but it's so minor that I still use Win 8.x because yes, it's better than 7 overall.

You want to know how I know you're a moron?

Re:Start Menu is not the problem...

[Anonymous Coward]

You want to know how I know you don't have a fucking clue?

Re:Nobody cares about this shitty OS

[Anonymous Coward]

They use LCARS on Enterprise!

So..

[epyT-R]

Can you shut all those bullshit tiles off and have a simple text menu?

Re:So..

[Tablizer]

Can you shut all those bullshit tiles off and have a simple text menu?

Yes. Install DOS 5 on it.

Re:So..

[epyT-R]

hyuck hyuck.

What's the big deal about win8?

[trybywrench]

I had to get a Windows 8 laptop, Surface 2, and Windows phone for work to test an application we're working on. I use OSX and Android day-to-day so from all the stories I expected to have an awful time trying to navigate through windows to even get to the application to start my testing/dev work but I don't see what the big deal is. The interface was intuitive enough for me ...maybe i didn't try to do enough, I just looked at the screen for the app, then click/touch it. :shrug:

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[David_Hart]

I had to get a Windows 8 laptop, Surface 2, and Windows phone for work to test an application we're working on. I use OSX and Android day-to-day so from all the stories I expected to have an awful time trying to navigate through windows to even get to the application to start my testing/dev work but I don't see what the big deal is. The interface was intuitive enough for me ...maybe i didn't try to do enough, I just looked at the screen for the app, then click/touch it. :shrug:

The big deal is when you have a laptop or a desktop without touch or you just hate having a screen full of fingerprints. When using a mouse, the windows 8 GUI is inefficient and poor to navigate. Of course, those unhappy with the Windows 8 or 8.1 interface can easily find add-ons that fix the Start menu and re-enable boot to desktop. Personally, I installed Start8 and have been happy ever since.

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[ArchieBunker]

Windows 8 just does dumb shit. The first box I setup had a touchscreen. The instructions say to move the mouse to the upper right corner. So I move the mouse and nothing happens. Check all the cables and everything but it all appears working. Finally figure out they want me to move the CURSOR to the upper right using my FINGER. The mouse is not even used!

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[jez9999]

Actually, the worst thing fior me about Windows 8 when I had to use it wasn't even the lack of the start menu; it was the fact that every time you move the mouse cursor near the corner, Windows 8 pops up some stupid sidebar. I want to move the mouse cursor from one monitor to another and Windows 8 kept getting in the way of that every time as if I were using a tablet device that needed these gesture popups.

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[Anonymous Coward]

When using a mouse, the windows 8 GUI is inefficient and poor to navigate.

Inefficient and poor for you, not me. Frankly, I could use a few choice words to describe someone like you who has trouble with something that's clearly better, but I'll refrain.

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[asmkm22]

I don't buy this complaint at all. I've been using 8.1 since it was released, and the hasn't once gotten in the way of me finding or doing stuff. In fact, there are a few things I miss from it when I have to do stuff on Win 7 (such as right-click the start icon to bring up all the admin options). And no, I don't use a touch screen or a laptop; just a plain old desktop with mouse and keyboard. So I ask, what exactly is so inefficient about right-clicking straight to device manager, or clicking start and typing the program you want? Or clicking start and clicking the program icon because you pinned it there...? There's so much hyperbole floating around this thing, and I find if kind of funny.

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact, there are a few things I miss from it when I have to do stuff on Win 7 (such as right-click the start icon to bring up all the admin options).

Holy shit, thankyouthankyouthankyou....

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[munch117]

In fact, there are a few things I miss from it when I have to do stuff on Win 7 (such as right-click the start icon to bring up all the admin options). And no, I don't use a touch screen or a laptop; just a plain old desktop with mouse and keyboard.

That button didn't even exist until after a lot of complaining. You can hardly complain about the complaining, when it gave you the very feature that you love so much.

As an aside, it puzzles me that you called the button an icon. But then of course, one of the countless usability mistakes in Windows 8 is the failure to visually differentiate buttons from other images and text.

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[Kjella]

The hyperbole tends to be pretty thick around here, I've used software interfaces that weren't just bad but simply atrocious and if Microsoft could conjure up one so bad I couldn't make it work for me and still be usable outside a mental asylum seems highly unlikely. Hitting the start button to shut down the computer doesn't even register in the top 1000 silliest shit I've had to do in order to make semi-broken, bizarre and buggy applications work. So "broken and useless" is probably more like "temporarily a damper on productivity while my Google-fu figures it out".

I guess a lot of people here have Win8 forced upon them by external circumstances, which tends to put everyone in a sour mood. Particularly end users that hate change and tend to make life even more miserable for IT. Personally the forecast is that Win7 is good until 2020, so in five year's time I should figure out if Microsoft has made anything decent, jump to OS X or take another shot at YotLD. If work pushes it on me, I'll cope. Around here it sounds like they should be awarding war medals like "Survived the 2010 ribbon transition".

I guess there's a whole bunch of people where the OS doesn't really matter and it's just "Which [device/OS] lets me update Facebook and Twitter the easiest?" but personally I'm fairly stuck with Windows and so is my work. They could duct tape a Kinect to all copies of Windows 9 and insist all commands be done Minority Report style and we'd probably still upgrade eventually, as long as the applications don't have to buy into "Metro" or anything like that. I'd just have to learn a few Kung Fu moves to open the most used apps and I'd probably still hit 95% relative efficiency overall.

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[steelfood]

Well, yes, if all we ever did with a Windows 8 laptop was turn it on to test our (pre-installed) application, then Windows 8 would have absolutely no problems. As such, our usages would constitute approximately 2% Windows and 98% our application.

And if Microsoft were to base their UI design goals on those use cases, they might as well have a machine that boots directly to the app and forget the Windows UI, entirely.

Which is to say, mods, that parent is about as informative as if I told you the desert would be very wet if only it rained.

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[petermgreen]

I guess a lot of people here have Win8 forced upon them by external circumstances, which tends to put everyone in a sour mood.

Yeah, you want/need a newer version of the core stuff and you get a new and supposedly improved GUI shoved down your throat.

It's hardly unique to windows, look at all the gnome2 users who got gnome3 shoved down their throat when they updated to to the new release of their linux distros.

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just FUD. It works with the mouse or with touch. I swear, /. has become filled with nothing but troglodytes who are terrified of anything different. Bunch of fucking, dumb toddlers.

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[Darinbob]

Maybe because you have touch?

As for metro, there are not apps that come with Windows that are worthwhile. I tried, them, they were all flawed. Some with very limited functionality where a web page would work better (for instance, web based Bing is much better than the Bing app in windows), or required you to get a Microsoft account, or had some bugs. Seriously, 9 out of 10 of those apps could be done purely on the web (even pre html5), and would probably be better on the web. Definitely the web loads *faster* than metro apps do. Overall, metro felt like a phone with the same category of silly apps.

The other impression I got a lot was that the apps felt like they were designed for executive level presentations: huge fonts, low information density, full screen, flash and glitter. Ie, "Sports". Not being a sports fan I can only imagine what sort of information a fan would want in an apps. Maybe lots of scores of all the day's games, a thumbnails for highlight videos, and other sorts of things you can get in any newspaper or news web site or television channel, and it would be all on the first page. What do you get instead? I got a giant picture of Pete Rose, 3/4ths of the wide screen display with a small paragraph leading the news story about it, no list of scores, etc. Worthless, I can get better than that with a bookmark. I haven't looked inside these, but I suspect that just like most phone apps, it's nothing more than some URLs packaged inside an XML wrapper by some intern who falsely claims to be a programmer. This is the output I expect from a weekend hackathon.

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[Darinbob]

8.1 you can turn off some of the hot corners, but that stupid "charms bar" is still there. Every day it bothers me. It screws up games I'm playing, it shows up when least expected requiring me to circle the mouse around again and be a bit slower about it to avoid that poisoned screen edge.

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[cbhacking]

WRONG!

The Start button was always there. It was hidden, in the same sense as the "Hide Taskbar" feature that's been there since what, Windows 95 or maybe 98? Mouse to the corner of the screen, button appears. Left click it, get Start screen; right click it, get admin menu. In the meantime, you get a bit more space on the taskbar.

Mind you, it'd have been nice if they'd made that *optional* (the way that Hide Taskbar is optional), but considering the Windows setup process - either on a new machine or on a clean install - spends like 5 minutes explaining this to you with really repetitive animations, it's pretty sad that people were *that* up in arms over it.

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[munch117]

And why do you think those animations are there? Probably because MS's trial users reported back that they couldn't figure out how operate the damned thing, and instead of fixing the UI to make it discoverable, they added training.

I've never seen those animations, by the way. I didn't install the OS on any Win8 computer I've used, so why would I?

Re:What's the big deal about win8?

[Anonymous Coward]

The button didn't exist, but right clicking the lower left corner (default position of that button) worked even in 8.0. Also Win+X brings the menu up since 8.0 and gives some nice keyboard shortcuts thereby.

oh, please, it's never "leaked"

[ChipMonk]

It's always, without exception, a strategic move by the PR department, to encourage public chatter about some product. And when it isn't, it's denounced by the company in question as "stolen."

IOW, yet another "Slashvertisement."

Re:oh, please, it's never "leaked"

[tomhath]

It's always, without exception, a strategic move by the PR department, to encourage public chatter about some product.

Yes, that's probably who leaked it. Kinda like those prototype Apple phones that get "lost" at bars and turn up in the hands of a tech gossip writer.

Re:oh, please, it's never "leaked"

[Mr_Silver]

It's always, without exception, a strategic move by the PR department, to encourage public chatter about some product.

As someone who actually had a product (they owned and managed) leak, I can tell you that it is never "always" a strategic move.

This might be orchestrated by the Microsoft PR team, but please don't assume that every leak is.

Re:oh, please, it's never "leaked"

[Anonymous Coward]

It wasn't even leaked recently it was in the wild and even on Slashdot MONTHS ago... I've heard of reposts... but this is really ridiculous...

Jesus Wept

[tuppe666]

I am seriously tired of people rewriting history to get versions to make sense. The only thing that is partially true is that Microsoft does not make evolutionary transitions easy, but then all OS's have some difficulty with that...eg Pulseaudio, iOS upgrades on iPhone 3G. The difference this time is the shift to tabletifying the OS...and turning your computer into an electronics device instead of a computer. The underlying OS is still Vista version 3.

Re:Jesus Wept

[Anonymous Coward]

The underlying OS is still Vista version 3.

Vista R4, actually. And Windows "9" will be Vista R5 (a.k.a. NT 6.4).

I think Microsoft's marketing department should go totally old-school and release the next version of Windows with its real version number and sell boxed copies of "Windows NT 6.4" in that old-school italicized Times New Roman font.

Re:Jesus Wept

[zr]

do i wish i had mod points, this needs to be modded up

Not the target market

[ArchieBunker]

You are not the target market for Chromebooks. The funny part is they still cost like 1/8 of what your Macbook did. My mom has a Chromebook and she loves it. I never get tech support calls anymore. Everything just works.

Re:Not the target market

[Anonymous Coward]

You are not the target market for Chromebooks. The funny part is they still cost like 1/8 of what your Macbook did. My mom has a Chromebook and she loves it. I never get tech support calls anymore. Everything just works.

Same experience for me after my mother bought a Acer C7 Chromebook. Joyful bliss, no more tech support when I visit.

Re:Not the target market

[rsborg]

You are not the target market for Chromebooks. The funny part is they still cost like 1/8 of what your Macbook did. My mom has a Chromebook and she loves it. I never get tech support calls anymore. Everything just works.

The target market seems about 1/8 the size as well (consequently, not significant enough for Microsoft to worry about it much). I skipped the Chromebook and got my parents an iPad - sure they don't type as much, but the banking, shopping and gaming options on the iPad are much more mature and reasonable than on a Chromebook and it's a hell of a lot more portable.

If you're going to keep it at home all the time, maybe it's a great tool for things like home folks and the classroom - but it is NOT a laptop replacement for the vast majority of people. Selling it as such is an expectations disaster waiting to happen.

Re:Not the target market

[ArchieBunker]

What do the vast majority of people do with their laptops? They play some games, watch youtube, and maybe type up notes in class. Can you elaborate on what "much more mature and reasonable" means? I can still buy two Chromebooks for the price of an iPad and not be forced to use bullshit iTunes.

And

[ArchieBunker]

They are fucking ugly. The super square shapes remind me of basic X window managers. Hell even CDE is more pleasing to look at.

Re:And

[jones_supa]

Heh, fully agree. I can't believe Microsoft put out something that simply looks so crusty.

Looks Like the Right Direction

[medv4380]

Can't be sure, but if this is real then I'm fine with the compromise of a tile metro app running in a window since rewriting all of them would take some time. Putting the tiles in the start menu where were there were only two buttons I ever touched is acceptable. I'll probably only ever use the PC Settings tile as long as the start menu works. This isn't exactly what I want, but what I want is XP updated to modern code, and they're intent on not doing that.

Re:Looks Like the Right Direction

[geekoid]

" I want is XP updated to modern code
so..you want something that's easy to break, easy to infect, but written with modern code?

You can NOT use modern code and have the PoS known as XP.

OMG the Irony

[tuppe666]

Those are all appliances.

guess the irony of this being a post about the *hope* of Microsoft receding, on its path to turn computing into Microsoft appliances is lost on you. Although as I said *Linux* and opensource(even a little free software) seems to continue to flourish.

Re:OMG the Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

The Linux kernel maybe but Google's proprietary layer on top of Android defeats the purpose anyway, youre just easily fooled into accepting Google's dictatorship over Microsoft's simply because it is built upon Linux. New features are added to proprietary Play Services and the free bundled OS apps are replaced with proprietary versions, youre a naive fool if you think this same proprietary creep wont happen to ChromeOS, it is just putting frogs in cool water and bringing it to the boil rather than throwing them straight in. OS X and iOS are built upon Darwin which is open source too but that platform is hardly the bastion of freedom.

Schizoid

[sycodon]

Pretty much explains M.S.'s design team. Start, no Start, Start, No Start. Tiles, no tiles.

It's like daytime TV now.

If it is like MacOSX I could go for it

[Billly Gates]

Macosx has its applets but on a desktop. The taskbar and start is there with applets running on a real desktop. Unplug keyboard and start stretches into full screen for tablets. DONE

I want aero back is my last complaint but that is soooo skeumorphism sigh. I think win 8 is anti skeumorphism taken to extremes.

Windows 8 and 2 in 1 laptops

[Anonymous Coward]

Just got a new laptop and I choose to go with a Sony 2 in 1. The laptop seems to work just fine both as a laptop and tablet. I went with windows 8 over mac for the dual uses reason. Ill be interested to see id Windows 9 is worth the upgrade. Windows NT kernel sounds promising.

So

[Murdoch5]

Next release of GNU/Linux still out preforms Windows in all the areas that matter.

Re:So

[Anonymous Coward]

And that's just what you fail to see. areas that matter TO YOU.

Most people rather the ease of use of Windows than the _ADD_YOUR_FAVOURITE_LINUX_THINGHY_, MOST people just want things to work, they don't want to spend 6 hours online on their smartphone looking for the hack that will make your Linux OS to detect the goddamn network card.

Is Linux bad? No, it's great in a lot of things, but it's still a pain in the ass.

Re:Nobody cares about this shitty OS

[Anonymous Coward]

Professionals stopped using this family of shitty OSes ages ago.

Actually they started using it again since NT6. You might want to try it too.

Right, no Aero glass?

[Twinbee]

And how about Aero Glass? Do we get that back too?

I don't want spartan overly minimalist buttons, windows and dropdowns that hinder more than they help. I want delineated areas that indicate boundaries with beveled widgets that say "click me". I also don't want white-washed backgrounds that strain the eyes when I'm trying to work productively - I want various shades so I can see that the menu, taskbar or URL bar is not part of the main page.

Windows 8 has a bad rap and better to call it 9

[Joe_Dragon]

Windows 8 has a bad rap and better to call it 9 then 8.2 or 8.1.2 / 8.1 U2

Re:Windows 8 has a bad rap and better to call it 9

[makapuf]

Not necessarily. 8.2 means : ok we heard you, we fixed the mess, here is the correct version. 9.0 means : preceding version was ok, now here is a new one, which will be good trust me.

Re:Windows 8 has a bad rap and better to call it 9

[Anonymous Coward]

The actual thinking, like it was with Windows vista and 7 were. Old name, old product with fixes that we provided for zero dollars; new name, new product with fixes that we provided for quite a few dollars.

Re:Windows 8 has a bad rap and better to call it 9

[Curunir_wolf]

Not necessarily. 8.2 means : ok we heard you, we fixed the mess, here is the correct version. 9.0 means : preceding version was ok, now here is a new one, which will be good trust me.

Here's a coupon for $25 off the $200 upgrade.

Re:Windows 8 has a bad rap and better to call it 9

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 8 has such a bad rap they should have called the next version Doors 9.

i hate it less

[maliqua]

games please run on != so the one thing i use windows for i can stop

Is it a hybrid menu out of pure ego and hostility?

[swb]

The Metro-ization of Windows has failed badly. You don't even need to look at Netcraft to prove it.

So why insist on a hybrid Start menu? Is this just simply the result of some assholes who simply refuse to admit their idea sucked greasy balls and by God they're going to fucking jam it down some throats anyway?

I haven't used a pure Win 8 device (phone or tablet) in its native mode so I'm withholding personal judgement on it that mode. It gets reasonable reviews (or at least the phone does) from people who have used it like that, but nobody I know is super enthusiastic about it from a desktop perspective at all. Nobody.

You would have think with Ballmer's exit SOMEBODY at Microsoft might have been willing to say "we shouldn't metro-ize the desktop. They really don't like it."

Too little too late

[ourlovecanlastforeve]

Sorry Microsoft, I already clicked on the Stop menu and bought a Macbook Pro. I'm through with your "every other version of Windows is a nightmare so you'll be happy to buy the new version when it comes out" act.

Re:Too little too late

[rhodium_mir]

But how do you survive without a Start menu?

Microsoft's OS business model:

[ourlovecanlastforeve]

1. Release a version of Windows that everybody likes.
2. Release a version of Windows that everybody hates.
3. Drop support for the OS everybody likes so they have to buy the one everybody hates.
5. Go to 1.

Microsoft sells licenses. If they didn't force you to upgrade to the Shitty Windows you'd just stay on the one you like. Once they've forced everyone onto the Shitty Windows, they release the Good Windows because of course you want the Good Windows and you'll rush to buy it.

Isn't that illegal, you say?

Isn't that extortion, you say?

Guess which operating system the US government's computers run.

Thats nice but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Its pretty fucking ugly.

Side by side

[slashmydots]

I looked at that shot side by side with a verified Win8 U2 release of the start menu (which is now cancelled) and it's basically the exact same thing. So they already slapped users in the face by saying it will be in a fall update to 8.1 then cancelling it. Now here comes the other hand for slap #2 that they're pretending it's a new development or invention. They just stole it completely from 8.1 U2.

hybridized start menu = half-assed fix

[kimvette]

On a system that isn't a tablet, I DO NOT WANT A TOUCH INTERFACE, or even a hint of it unless I get a touch sensitive monitor and explicitly turn it on (a prompt asking me if I want to would be fine, too). For desktops and laptops, Windows 7's start menu is absolute perfection.

Don't try to improve perfection. I don't want to see any trace of the formerly-known-as-metro style interfaces anywhere on a desktop OS. Don't try to sell me a Windows tablet and think that shoving a touch interface in my face on the desktop is going to get me to buy. Android is where it's at for tablets. Trying to force that crappy UI on me will make me not even consider Windows tablets even IF you make it far superior to Android.

All you've done is alienate customers with Windows 8, and you're still trying to shove that loathed (loathed isn't even the word for it) abortion of a UI in people's faces. I'm going to be buying a bunch of Windows 7 licenses while it's still available because Windows 9's isn't shaping to be much better than Windows 8. If I have to run 9, I'll be installing classic shell on it, like I do on Windows Server when I have to work on Windows servers (who the FUCK thought it was a good idea to put a tablet UI on a server OS anyhow?!)

Oh, and while you're at it bring back glass. Knock it off with that Windows '80s flat look.

Re:hybridized start menu = half-assed fix

[Anonymous Coward]

On a system that isn't a tablet, I DO NOT WANT A TOUCH INTERFACE, or even a hint of it unless I get a touch sensitive monitor and explicitly turn it on (a prompt asking me if I want to would be fine, too). For desktops and laptops, Windows 7's start menu is absolute perfection.

Don't try to improve perfection. I don't want to see any trace of the formerly-known-as-metro style interfaces anywhere on a desktop OS. Don't try to sell me a Windows tablet and think that shoving a touch interface in my face on the desktop is going to get me to buy. Android is where it's at for tablets. Trying to force that crappy UI on me will make me not even consider Windows tablets even IF you make it far superior to Android.

All you've done is alienate customers with Windows 8, and you're still trying to shove that loathed (loathed isn't even the word for it) abortion of a UI in people's faces. I'm going to be buying a bunch of Windows 7 licenses while it's still available because Windows 9's isn't shaping to be much better than Windows 8. If I have to run 9, I'll be installing classic shell on it, like I do on Windows Server when I have to work on Windows servers (who the FUCK thought it was a good idea to put a tablet UI on a server OS anyhow?!)

Oh, and while you're at it bring back glass. Knock it off with that Windows '80s flat look.

(At microsoft) -Hey guys this tablet market is growing like crazy, do you think we should get into that and maybe try and standartize the interfaces across all platforms?
                                        - Hell naaw John says Android is where its at for tablets right now. I think we should wait and maybe leave everything the same for a few decades in case we fuck up and actually need to learn from our mistakes. Like maybe people really like xp and we should drop everything and just provide updates cuz thats what people like.

What's the big deal about win8?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that you Ballmer?

when this rolls out...

[Anonymous Coward]

The desktop will be dead and 99% of consumers will be using a tablet. It has been said there will be over a BILLION Android users of tablets and phones buy the end of 2015. So... This leaves the turd in the toilet so we can flush it down and say goodbye to Mr Hanky!

Leaked Screenshot Of Windows 9

[Anonymous Coward]

http://img.wallpaperstock.net:...

Yep

[Radical Moderate]

After promoting the hell out of Aero and how beautiful it was, they come out with crappy, blocky tiles. What step backwards. It's almost as if they have no respect for their customers.

Wow

[johnsthomason]

Wow, that's amazzzing...I can hardly contain myself...oh joy...

Re:No viable desktop O/S's left...

[epyT-R]

to the cloud with you!

Not nearly as big a deal as people pretend

[Sycraft-fu]

Visual people seem to like it often. Mom loves the new start screen because of that (she's an artist/ex-art teacher). However it does have some issues for normal desktop use. Not the OMGWTFBBQ whine fest geeks make it out to be (which is largely MS bashing) but still.

The big issue is that it is clunky to use in a professional setting. Like on my desktop I have a whole lot of applications, and I often run and use many of them. The start menu is good because it doesn't occlude much of the screen. Also everything is nice and hierarchical, making it easy to find things. The start screen becomes a pretty big mess. It goes on for ever, even on my 30" monitor, because I have so much installed and it shows all icons. Yes, I can set up tiles with the most used stuff, but that really doesn't solve the issue since I already have task bar shortcuts for that, I go to the start menu/screen when it is a less used program.

Hence I run a start menu replacer (Start 8 in my case). It isn't that I can't use the start screen, I just find it inferior to what it replaced. It's perfectly usable, the 2012R2 servers at work all use it and that's fine, however a start menu is better/faster for what I do.

On a tablet, it works nicely. You need bigger icons to do finger navigation. However my desktop isn't a tablet, my screen is not and will never be touch (no finger prints please and thanks). So it is sub optimal.

Hence MS really is right to bring back the menu for desktops, and have the screen for tablets. However you are also right that the whiners need to STFU because it is not the dire disaster they like to pretend.

It may get more interest if it is done right

[Sycraft-fu]

The issue with Metro is that the "Only full screen mode," is a deal breaker on desktops. I do not have a 30" screen to run one program at a time, thanks (barring a few exceptions). However they become perfectly usable when they are in a window. Modern Mix for Stardock does that, and apparently Windows 9 will do it natively. Ok well at that point, Metro is just another API you can use alongside Win32 and .NET and maybe there's some interest. If a Metro program works just like any other then perhaps more people will be interested in writing them.

Of course that remains to be seen, but a new API that is cross desktop/tablet/phone isn't a horrible idea, forced fullscreen on a desktop is.

Re:It may get more interest if it is done right

[swb]

Most of Microsoft's internals changes are good and can generally be seen as progress, and certainly an API usable across platforms makes sense.

The problem with Microsoft around these things is that they always feel the need to change the GUI to promote whatever nonsense bubbles to the top of marketing's mind.

With other Windows versions the GUI changes were mostly about glitz or copying MacOS but with Win8 the changes seemed to be trying to force an iPad paradigm down everyone's throats and it failed utterly.

I bet they do it

[Anonymous Coward]

I was looking at laptops today at Fry's. They still had some windows 7 machines. It looks like they were fetching an extra $100 over comparable windows 8 machines. If I made laptops I don't think I would be happy with Microsoft.

Re:Is it a hybrid menu out of pure ego and hostili

[phantomfive]

You would have think with Ballmer's exit SOMEBODY at Microsoft might have been willing to say "we shouldn't metro-ize the desktop. They really don't like it."

Apparently Ballmer wasn't the only one responsible for Microsoft's bad decisions.

Forget the fugly tiles for a second...

[norite]

I still want to know why a clean install of winders 8 eats 17Gb of hard drive space...

I mean, what the hell is in it that takes up that amount of space? It's obscene. And yet I can fit a fully working linux distro on a CD.

Re:Forget the fugly tiles for a second...

[Anonymous Coward]

I still want to know why a clean install of winders 8 eats 17Gb of hard drive space...

WinSxS (Side-by-side assemblies) probably.

You need to have System32 for Windows 9, a backwards compatible copy of all the changed DLLs in System32 for Windows 8 apps, another set of copies for Windows 7, then Vista and another set for XP.

Re:Forget the fugly tiles for a second...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it possible you have a lot of RAM and are counting the page file and the hibernate file? When you do a size check, exactly how do you check it?

Re:Forget the fugly tiles for a second...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's 1Gb for the OS and 16Gb of patches.

Re:Forget the fugly tiles for a second...

[Anonymous Coward]

What's a CD?

Re:Forget the fugly tiles for a second...

[Anonymous Coward]

I mean, what the hell is in it that takes up that amount of space?

Fail. Gigabytes and gigabytes of Fail.

Re:Forget the fugly tiles for a second...

[ToddInSF]

Multiple-linked files only appear to take up that much space. I'm always amused by how not tech knowledgeable supposed tech people are on a tech site.

Re:Forget the fugly tiles for a second...

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out page space, and hibernate.

Re:Forget the fugly tiles for a second...

[Teresita]

And yet I can fit a fully working linux distro on a CD.

I can fit a fully working Puppy Linux live 'stro on a 204 megabyte 8cm CD, with room to spare to install a hunnert meg of Debian or Slackware apps and remaster. And the sweet thing about it is Puppy runs entirely in RAM, so I can pull the boot CD out and play movies. I don't even have to install libdvdcss like I have to do on Ubuntu, it's already done

People are idiots

[Anonymous Coward]

The same people that brag about all the customized interfaces they put on their flavor of the month Linux OS or Android phone and then diss Microsoft for removing the start menu are hypocrites. Customize Win 8 by putting in a 3rd party start menu. Its really that easy.

Idiot and/or liar (you and whoever modded that up)

[cbhacking]

ArchieBunker either has no fucking clue what he's talking about, or is just trolling. Not sure which. To set the record straight, though:
1) You can't move the pointer (one assumes that's what he meant by "CURSOR") with your finger. Anybody who has used Windows on a touchscreen knows this. You can move it with the stylus, and you can do gestures with fingers, but you can't move the pointer.
2) Moving the mouse to the upper right corner brings up the Charms bar, just like the little animation shows. You can disable that behavior if you want to, but it's enabled by default whether you have a touchscreen or not. It is a ridiculously blatant lie to claim otherwise.
3) Anything you can do with the mouse in Win7 or below, you can do with the mouse in Win8. Sometimes the exact form it takes is different - for example, right-clicking in Metro-style apps brings up a context-sensitive app bar instead of a context menu - but it's there. You can operate menus, launch/minimize/restore/maximize/snap/close apps, scroll documents, and so on.

Sadly, at least one moderator fell for it. Or maybe they have an agenda and don't mind spreading... is it even FUD when it is blatantly , easily provably false? Spreading lies, because spreading FUD wasn't quite good enough, I guess...

Somewhat on topic, 64bit only or still no balls?

[AbRASiON]

Subject says it really. Win7 shouldn't have shipped with a 32bit version, Windows 8 definitely should not have shipped with a 32bit version and for goodness sakes, Windows 9 most god damned definitely should not be shipping with a 32bit version.

Can we finally get a single unified build here? It's time to let it go.

George Lucas...

[Anonymous Coward]

He adds things he thinks are "improvements", and then cuts them out in later editions.

Didn't the start menu return in 8.1?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, am I missing something?

This is a weird obsession

[armahillo]

Why does the news coverage always seem to focus on whether or not there is a start menu, or whatever kind of primary UI navigation it uses? Is this really that critical of an issue? This is one of those things where I feel like Microsoft tries to get everyone to fixate on this one feature so that they don't think about other areas that might need to be improved or overhauled.

It's like if you worked at an office where the working conditions weren't great, you get them to focus on some issue like The Coffee Machine, or something... make that a hot topic of discussion that gets everyone's attention... then people are less likely to notice things like "oh, we haven't gotten a raise in a few years" or "we don't get very much paid time off."

I quit Windows several years ago and have been 100% ubuntu since; I've not looked back. The few times when I have to use Windows at work, it's so stressful and frustrating. I don't know how people put up with it.

you mean the...

[Anonymous Coward]

The new hybridized Start menu

bastardized start menu.

Start menu driver

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, the start menu is part of the "kernel" now. Such design, much engineer, wow very built.

and so attractive! Are they trying to boost the stock price by saving money on designers or do they intentionally make all their products look like they were designed by second graders with six crayons.

The real problem with windows 8

[Daniel Hoffmann]

Personally what annoys me the most about windows 8 is the UI dissonance that happens when accessing the new UI screens. For example when connecting to a wifi network, the lists pops from the right side of the screen with huge text and huge "clickable" areas that are huge only because of the touch interface. This happens in a ton of places in windows 8

connecting to wifi network -> modern ui
configuring network -> classic ui

Seriously, if you want to have both different uis in the same OS you need to have two screens for everything, there is no excuse for that.

This dissonance happens in windows 7 too, but it is not as pronounced, many configuration screens still look like they were made in the windows 98 era and never touched again. For example the control panel in windows 7 is pretty neat, but click on device manager and you are thrown in another window with a different UI. They updated the network configurations to use the new control panel look, but forgot to do the same to the device manager.

Re:Somewhat on topic, 64bit only or still no balls

[Paradigma11]

Subject says it really. Win7 shouldn't have shipped with a 32bit version, Windows 8 definitely should not have shipped with a 32bit version and for goodness sakes, Windows 9 most god damned definitely should not be shipping with a 32bit version.

Can we finally get a single unified build here? It's time to let it go.

And what about the baytrail tablets and laptops that only support 32bit?

Re:Somewhat on topic, 64bit only or still no balls

[AbRASiON]

In a single (ok 2) words

Fuck them
Fuck them in their stupid assess. I don't give a shit about the "baytrail tablets and laptops" If you are purchasing 32bit only hardware in the last 4 years, fucking shame on you and if intel don't or didn't have a 64bit alternative, you shouldn't have bought intel.

32bit OS's should've been dead 5 years ago, this bullshit needs to stop.

Re:Is it a hybrid menu out of pure ego and hostili

[Your.Master]

Do you really react so violently to the tiles that it bothers you that they are there in the menu?

The start menu looks fine now. Windows 7 had a bunch of useless buttons, which they've replaced with tiles which at least give you a weather report and a number of unread mails (not visible in the screenshot but a reasonable inference if you've ever used Windows 8 and recognize the tiles). The full screen thing was a disaster. It was basically the same as having a modal dialog. Except worse, since even a modal dialog lets you see in behind.

Re:Is it a hybrid menu out of pure ego and hostili

[swb]

What bothers me is that whatever value the Metro interface has as a touch interface -- and it has been generally well reviewed on Windows phones, although I personally haven't used it in that scenario -- it's seriously unpopular in a desktop environment and on Windows 8 it doesn't seem to add any value and in many ways is extremely annoying.

And it's not like I'm the only one with this opinion or experience.

Microsoft's continuing push of this kind of interface on its desktop operating system seems to be more hubris and denial -- they're pushing whatever their business agenda is, not what anyone sees as a valuable improvement in anyone's user experience. They want one UI across all devices so they can be a phone/tablet/desktop consumer company. They're not doing it because somehow big, touch tiles help improve the windows desktop experience.