Not exactly true. It would be one thing if people hijacked a board and advertised their services with some sort of code words. Quite another to actually dedicate a special place for them to transact business with the disclaimer "uh, dont do what this board is named if it is illegal"
Which was why that board exists in the first place -- those ads were previously on other boards.
I realize this is a private business, but I find it odd there's such a commotion about removing their adult services section but they think nothing of disallowing gun listings. Looks like a double standard to me.
Craigslist only created that category because users were complaining about erotic ads infesting general areas -- the point was to segragate the ads. Now, those ads will continue, you'll see erotic ads in general sections.
Guns? There isn't quite the demand for guns as there is for sex, plus you can buy guns legally.
Languages aren't fast -- compilers are efficient. How "fast" a language is perceived to be is purely a function of whether an efficient compiler exists for the particular platform.
One example is generics: if you use ArrayList<int> in Java, you end up with a bunch of boxing/unboxing overhead at runtime, because the compiler erases the type and turns it into a list of objects. List<int> in.NET remains a list of primitives, so there's no boxing.
While C# is better in some regards, I don't think your description of Java is quite correct. AFAIK the boxing/unboxing occur at compile (to bytecode) time and the JVM sees *exactly* the same code as if you'd done List int -- that is, generics is strictly a syntactic sugar in Java which can only be detected at compile time.
Absolutely, it's time for Java to die and rise from the ashes as Java2, or just die completely and let JRuby/scala/whatever take over.
Sure, c# is a tad better in some regards, but what's the point of a VM which isn't cross platform?
The exception might be if the uber-fast solution enables a fundamentally different approach to computing than nominally available. Maybe Oracle isn't planning so much on selling these solutions to end-users, as they are in building out a giant server cluster that they lease out a-la other so-called "cloud" computing solutions. I.e. they don't sell you sparc+oracle, they sell hosted ERP, etc. Building the servers themselves, they may be able to argue their infrastructure costs are lower than for vendors like Amazon who have to buy their servers from others.
Still, while that might buy them a little time, there's nothing preventing the creation of open hosted services. Vendor lock-in is vendor lock-in, cloud or not.
In the above situation, there's no hardware lock-in, just to the API for that cloud. For example, assume Java and Oracle for the db. Where's the lock-in, exactly? Strictly to the db, it's not prohibitive to go with Java + mySql (or whatever) if you decide it's not worth it.
Notably, google app engine, which does something like the above, has its oddities, but they're relatively minor. If Oracle believes a vertical monopoly will yield greater profits for them, and greater savings for their customers, then more power to them.
I'm not so convinced it would work out, just because of hardware commoditization, but I'd be interested to at least see the attempt.
this is so weird. talking gold investing on slashdot? i like gold but this mainstream attention is driving me crazy - there is a bubble in every market and i can't figure out how much time in this gold bull run we have.
Gold is, I dunno the technical term, but I think a "hedge" investment. In times of war or depression gold goes up. Inversely, if the cost of gold decreases that's a marker that things are looking up otherwise.
I don't see how Google would be a better steward of Java than Oracle. Google seem content to define their own pseudo-Java platforms such as Android (forked from Harmony, not fully Java SE/ME compatible) and AppEngine (not supporting full Java EE) than cooperating with other parties through JCP.
I wonder to what extent Google is simply being pragmatic, creating something which works for them, versus hijacking Java to create GoogleJava.
They had started to play nice with EJB3 and TopLink, but now they have absolutely no reason to keep doing so. They now have much more weight in the JCP process (if the JCP even continues to exist) and they can now push out better ideas from competitors. I'm very apprehensive about the future of Java.
The best thing would be for Java itself to move towards being frozen and to start over. Not that there's any need for the JVM to go away, but it's time to acknowledge that Java has some inherent flaws which cannot be tweaked away.
great, so first google totally rips of linux and calls it 'android' and now its ripping off java.
"Android is a software platform and operating system for mobile devices, based on the Linux kernel, developed by Google and later the Open Handset Alliance.[2] It allows developers to write managed code in the Java language, controlling the device via Google-developed Java libraries.[3]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)
No, I don't think that Google ever ripped off Linux, nor do I see that they're ripping off Java. Besides, they're both GPL'd, so there's not much "ripping off" to do, since any code changes make their upstream, or result in an essentially public fork.
Java hasn't taken over the world like it was meant to. The position it could have held unfortunately is slowly being eroded away by.NET on the application end and things like Flash/Air on the web side.
Which is a shame. There's still hope for Java, but not directly, I think. The hope is for things like JRuby, JPython, etc. Maybe it's time to let Java die, as in start freezing it and re-allocate resources elsewhere -- anywhere but.NET, of course.
Can any free Java IDE Just Work(tm) with making simple executable.jar files?
Did you spend one fucking second googling that? The problem, almost by definition, cannot be the JAR file as the JAR is designed to work with any JVM. So, why is your system not configured correctly? Ask a useful question.
Netbeans won't do it. It says it will generate a manifest with a main class but it dosen't.
By *default* when you create a "hello world" console app in NB it will create a JAR -- you're too dumb to even ask the right questions.
the manifest to point to the main class then Netbeans will magically ignore or overwrite it everytime. The internet forums tell me that it's my fault...
Yes, it's your fault. Did try a hello world console app first? then build from there? do you have more than one class with a "main"?
with ant scripts because I want to show my friends a hello world application without making my friends compile and run it themselves in their own IDE. Many of us have friends who don't know or care what an IDE is.
Oh, you're doing a hello world app. well, since there's just the one class I don't see how you can have the problems described.
The Matisse editor in Netbeans is powerful and full featured. I can tweek every little ass-hair of every little component. Wait - what's all that crap in my source editor? It dosen't look familiar, and to add insult to injury, Netbeans is telling me that I can't edit some code?
Did you try clicking on the widgets from matisse? That will allow you to edit the code completely. If there's a particular part of that which confuses you: use a mailing list.
Idiot.
So the Forbes.com author Ruthie Ackerman is an adult who has chosen to continue using a childhood name, a name that suggests that she is small and cute. That tends in the direction of causing me to have less confidence in her judgment.
Citigroup does not want to buy red hat and will not buy them. The citigroup analyst is speculating that now is a good time for some one else (Oracle, IBM, Sun) to buy them.
You get what you pay for. If these analysts are giving their advice for free, ya gotta ask "why?" OTOH, if citigroup is listening to its own analysts, and buying the stock which the analysts recommend, that's a different story.
You might as well listen to one of those guys on CNN or whatever who shout about stocks -- at least they, presumably, poll other "experts."
All the citigroup analyst is accomplishing is to generate speculation, which, if you turn the whole thing around, implies that the intent is to manipulate the market. Maybe citigroup is looking to unload their redhat stock and are jacking up the price? Not that you would ever find written evidence of such a scheme...
The point I was highlighting was a Fedora/RH user has the same issues using Debian as a Debian user would using Fedora/RH.
You prefer Debian.... I prefer Red Hat.
When Debian/Ubuntu gets mindshare in the real world, I know I can switch without a problem because, at the end of the day, it's all Linux with the config files in a different spot.
The problem with Fedora, as I recall, is that there's no officially sanctioned documentation on upgrading from Fedora version n to version n+1. Unless that changed?
-Thufir
When people finally give up the notion that a desktop isn't viable unless they can install "whatever" software they want, then we will see sanity in approaches to Linux desktops. Are your business needs capable of being met by what is available to a Linux desktop? The same questions are applicable to Mac on the desktop, after all. And for the same reasons, Apple Macintosh could be deemed as "not ready for the desktop" as well.
People are accustomed to the idea of Apple on the desktop and are quickly faced with problems such as Office on the Mac not being fully functional when compared to Office on Windows. Either those problems are accepted or the use of Apple on the desktop is rejected. Linux is no different in this regard.
Can business needs be met with a Linux desktop? Quite often, YES. It depends on the business needs though, but for more generic and common needs, it is ready.
When approaching the question from a functional needs perspective rather than "can I run iTunes and my favorite screensaver and weatherbug?" then fair assessment of applicability can be determined.
And once again, those same metrics APPLY to Mac OS X just as it does to Linux, so if people will claim Mac is ready for the desktop and that Linux isn't, I think that there is probably something broken in their assessment.
Well, ditto. If the "need" is defined as a requirement to run app x, then, no, Linux may not be a solution. However, if the requirement is restated then often Linux provides an out-of-the-box solution, or the cost contracting out such an app is minimal. And, you can get such an app be OS and vendor neutral.
-Thufir
One thing that IBM *won't* do is fail to find ways to monetize what they acquire from Sun.
The most significant reason Sun find themselves in their current situation is that they've never been able to figure out that (*gasp*) there's money to be made in things like *support*.
Around here (Toronto, Canada), Sun (in fact) would rather companies get Sun support (hardware, OS, or even application software) via third parties such as Kanatek (I know I'm spelling it wrong). IBM, on the other hand, *love* providing support, because they know enough to make a pretty penny from it.
I dunno, I would argue that it makes sense for a company to do one thing well then be a poor jack-of-trades. I expect that Sun sees Kanatek (or whatever) as another customer, and I bet that kantek *pays* sun. Even if kanatek doesn't pay sun, it at least frees up Sun to focus its organization on one thing.
Not that it's written in stone.
-Thufir
If NetBeans was actually able to compile our project i'd use it, but since it chokes on our use of java generics(when the standard JDK and Eclipse dont), takes forever to parse our project, and in the end crashes and falls over, i think i'll stick with Eclipse.
Why would Netbeans choke, since it uses Ant plus Javac? Clearly you need to modify your ant file.
-Thufir
IBM loves java, but that doesn't mean IBM is good for java. IBM is a slow lumbering beast, java's inability to innovate has hurt it enough already. The acquisition process alone will delay java a few years.
IMHO it's time to think past Java and look at Ruby. Much of what makes Ruby so appealing *can* be applied to a compiled, strongly typed language, like:
gems
getter/setter notation
cleaner syntax
-Thufir
Slashdot Mirror
I'd like to disable Java but I work at a school district where...
*why* do you want to disable Java? Just on general principle? I would've thought that mac users would be biased in favor of vendor neutrality.
Not exactly true. It would be one thing if people hijacked a board and advertised their services with some sort of code words. Quite another to actually dedicate a special place for them to transact business with the disclaimer "uh, dont do what this board is named if it is illegal"
Which was why that board exists in the first place -- those ads were previously on other boards.
I realize this is a private business, but I find it odd there's such a commotion about removing their adult services section but they think nothing of disallowing gun listings. Looks like a double standard to me.
Craigslist only created that category because users were complaining about erotic ads infesting general areas -- the point was to segragate the ads. Now, those ads will continue, you'll see erotic ads in general sections. Guns? There isn't quite the demand for guns as there is for sex, plus you can buy guns legally.
Languages aren't fast -- compilers are efficient. How "fast" a language is perceived to be is purely a function of whether an efficient compiler exists for the particular platform.
Plus, you can always compile Java to native code.
One example is generics: if you use ArrayList<int> in Java, you end up with a bunch of boxing/unboxing overhead at runtime, because the compiler erases the type and turns it into a list of objects. List<int> in .NET remains a list of primitives, so there's no boxing.
While C# is better in some regards, I don't think your description of Java is quite correct. AFAIK the boxing/unboxing occur at compile (to bytecode) time and the JVM sees *exactly* the same code as if you'd done List int -- that is, generics is strictly a syntactic sugar in Java which can only be detected at compile time. Absolutely, it's time for Java to die and rise from the ashes as Java2, or just die completely and let JRuby/scala/whatever take over. Sure, c# is a tad better in some regards, but what's the point of a VM which isn't cross platform?
You hit it in one. IF your company runs Oracle on Red Hat, prepare to get fucked.
If your company decided to run Oracle on RedHat you're already fucked.
What's wrong with Oracle on Redhat?
The exception might be if the uber-fast solution enables a fundamentally different approach to computing than nominally available. Maybe Oracle isn't planning so much on selling these solutions to end-users, as they are in building out a giant server cluster that they lease out a-la other so-called "cloud" computing solutions. I.e. they don't sell you sparc+oracle, they sell hosted ERP, etc. Building the servers themselves, they may be able to argue their infrastructure costs are lower than for vendors like Amazon who have to buy their servers from others.
Still, while that might buy them a little time, there's nothing preventing the creation of open hosted services. Vendor lock-in is vendor lock-in, cloud or not.
In the above situation, there's no hardware lock-in, just to the API for that cloud. For example, assume Java and Oracle for the db. Where's the lock-in, exactly? Strictly to the db, it's not prohibitive to go with Java + mySql (or whatever) if you decide it's not worth it. Notably, google app engine, which does something like the above, has its oddities, but they're relatively minor. If Oracle believes a vertical monopoly will yield greater profits for them, and greater savings for their customers, then more power to them. I'm not so convinced it would work out, just because of hardware commoditization, but I'd be interested to at least see the attempt.
".. it was widely assumed that Oracle was interested only in Sun's software technology ..."
Java is open source, so there's not much reason to buy it. What other Sun software technology would Oracle want?
The JVM distribution earns money for Sun.
this is so weird. talking gold investing on slashdot? i like gold but this mainstream attention is driving me crazy - there is a bubble in every market and i can't figure out how much time in this gold bull run we have.
Gold is, I dunno the technical term, but I think a "hedge" investment. In times of war or depression gold goes up. Inversely, if the cost of gold decreases that's a marker that things are looking up otherwise.
I don't see how Google would be a better steward of Java than Oracle. Google seem content to define their own pseudo-Java platforms such as Android (forked from Harmony, not fully Java SE/ME compatible) and AppEngine (not supporting full Java EE) than cooperating with other parties through JCP.
I wonder to what extent Google is simply being pragmatic, creating something which works for them, versus hijacking Java to create GoogleJava.
They had started to play nice with EJB3 and TopLink, but now they have absolutely no reason to keep doing so. They now have much more weight in the JCP process (if the JCP even continues to exist) and they can now push out better ideas from competitors. I'm very apprehensive about the future of Java.
The best thing would be for Java itself to move towards being frozen and to start over. Not that there's any need for the JVM to go away, but it's time to acknowledge that Java has some inherent flaws which cannot be tweaked away.
Ummm, even Sun says you should not be launching threads inside of JEE containers.
I've never heard that. Why? You might want to make an operation run in the background, so give it a different thread.
great, so first google totally rips of linux and calls it 'android' and now its ripping off java.
"Android is a software platform and operating system for mobile devices, based on the Linux kernel, developed by Google and later the Open Handset Alliance.[2] It allows developers to write managed code in the Java language, controlling the device via Google-developed Java libraries.[3]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system) No, I don't think that Google ever ripped off Linux, nor do I see that they're ripping off Java. Besides, they're both GPL'd, so there's not much "ripping off" to do, since any code changes make their upstream, or result in an essentially public fork.
Java hasn't taken over the world like it was meant to. The position it could have held unfortunately is slowly being eroded away by .NET on the application end and things like Flash/Air on the web side.
Which is a shame. There's still hope for Java, but not directly, I think. The hope is for things like JRuby, JPython, etc. Maybe it's time to let Java die, as in start freezing it and re-allocate resources elsewhere -- anywhere but .NET, of course.
Sun's revenue is close to $14 Billion a year. To compare, RedHat is only $164 Million, Novel is $214 mil, Oracle is $5.5 billion, IBM is $127 Billion.
They're selling stuff and bringing in a decent chunk of change. The problem they have is in making a profit. There's a huge potential there.
If there revenue is that great, then they just need to reduce costs to get to profitability. However, those numbers just don't make sense.
Tons of boilerplate
"boilerplate" is generally taken care of in the ide.
Which sidesteps the fact that Java has too much boilerplater, particularly in comparison to C#
Can any free Java IDE Just Work(tm) with making simple executable .jar files?
Did you spend one fucking second googling that? The problem, almost by definition, cannot be the JAR file as the JAR is designed to work with any JVM. So, why is your system not configured correctly? Ask a useful question.
Netbeans won't do it. It says it will generate a manifest with a main class but it dosen't.
By *default* when you create a "hello world" console app in NB it will create a JAR -- you're too dumb to even ask the right questions.
the manifest to point to the main class then Netbeans will magically ignore or overwrite it everytime. The internet forums tell me that it's my fault...
Yes, it's your fault. Did try a hello world console app first? then build from there? do you have more than one class with a "main"?
with ant scripts because I want to show my friends a hello world application without making my friends compile and run it themselves in their own IDE. Many of us have friends who don't know or care what an IDE is.
Oh, you're doing a hello world app. well, since there's just the one class I don't see how you can have the problems described.
The Matisse editor in Netbeans is powerful and full featured. I can tweek every little ass-hair of every little component. Wait - what's all that crap in my source editor? It dosen't look familiar, and to add insult to injury, Netbeans is telling me that I can't edit some code?
Did you try clicking on the widgets from matisse? That will allow you to edit the code completely. If there's a particular part of that which confuses you: use a mailing list. Idiot.
So the Forbes.com author Ruthie Ackerman is an adult who has chosen to continue using a childhood name, a name that suggests that she is small and cute. That tends in the direction of causing me to have less confidence in her judgment.
What an odd bias. Do you factor in her publisher?
Citigroup does not want to buy red hat and will not buy them. The citigroup analyst is speculating that now is a good time for some one else (Oracle, IBM, Sun) to buy them.
You get what you pay for. If these analysts are giving their advice for free, ya gotta ask "why?" OTOH, if citigroup is listening to its own analysts, and buying the stock which the analysts recommend, that's a different story. You might as well listen to one of those guys on CNN or whatever who shout about stocks -- at least they, presumably, poll other "experts." All the citigroup analyst is accomplishing is to generate speculation, which, if you turn the whole thing around, implies that the intent is to manipulate the market. Maybe citigroup is looking to unload their redhat stock and are jacking up the price? Not that you would ever find written evidence of such a scheme...
IBM have their own Linux distro, of sorts. It's called Open Client, it's based on RHEL 5, and it's currently only available for internal IBM use.
Not much info on that, unfortunately. What do they sell customers who request Linux? -Thufir
"yum install `package`", now you try. Sigh...
The point I was highlighting was a Fedora/RH user has the same issues using Debian as a Debian user would using Fedora/RH.
You prefer Debian.... I prefer Red Hat.
When Debian/Ubuntu gets mindshare in the real world, I know I can switch without a problem because, at the end of the day, it's all Linux with the config files in a different spot.
The problem with Fedora, as I recall, is that there's no officially sanctioned documentation on upgrading from Fedora version n to version n+1. Unless that changed? -Thufir
When people finally give up the notion that a desktop isn't viable unless they can install "whatever" software they want, then we will see sanity in approaches to Linux desktops. Are your business needs capable of being met by what is available to a Linux desktop? The same questions are applicable to Mac on the desktop, after all. And for the same reasons, Apple Macintosh could be deemed as "not ready for the desktop" as well.
People are accustomed to the idea of Apple on the desktop and are quickly faced with problems such as Office on the Mac not being fully functional when compared to Office on Windows. Either those problems are accepted or the use of Apple on the desktop is rejected. Linux is no different in this regard.
Can business needs be met with a Linux desktop? Quite often, YES. It depends on the business needs though, but for more generic and common needs, it is ready.
When approaching the question from a functional needs perspective rather than "can I run iTunes and my favorite screensaver and weatherbug?" then fair assessment of applicability can be determined.
And once again, those same metrics APPLY to Mac OS X just as it does to Linux, so if people will claim Mac is ready for the desktop and that Linux isn't, I think that there is probably something broken in their assessment.
Well, ditto. If the "need" is defined as a requirement to run app x, then, no, Linux may not be a solution. However, if the requirement is restated then often Linux provides an out-of-the-box solution, or the cost contracting out such an app is minimal. And, you can get such an app be OS and vendor neutral. -Thufir
One thing that IBM *won't* do is fail to find ways to monetize what they acquire from Sun.
The most significant reason Sun find themselves in their current situation is that they've never been able to figure out that (*gasp*) there's money to be made in things like *support*.
Around here (Toronto, Canada), Sun (in fact) would rather companies get Sun support (hardware, OS, or even application software) via third parties such as Kanatek (I know I'm spelling it wrong). IBM, on the other hand, *love* providing support, because they know enough to make a pretty penny from it.
I dunno, I would argue that it makes sense for a company to do one thing well then be a poor jack-of-trades. I expect that Sun sees Kanatek (or whatever) as another customer, and I bet that kantek *pays* sun. Even if kanatek doesn't pay sun, it at least frees up Sun to focus its organization on one thing. Not that it's written in stone. -Thufir
If NetBeans was actually able to compile our project i'd use it, but since it chokes on our use of java generics(when the standard JDK and Eclipse dont), takes forever to parse our project, and in the end crashes and falls over, i think i'll stick with Eclipse.
Why would Netbeans choke, since it uses Ant plus Javac? Clearly you need to modify your ant file. -Thufir
IBM loves java, but that doesn't mean IBM is good for java. IBM is a slow lumbering beast, java's inability to innovate has hurt it enough already. The acquisition process alone will delay java a few years.
IMHO it's time to think past Java and look at Ruby. Much of what makes Ruby so appealing *can* be applied to a compiled, strongly typed language, like: gems getter/setter notation cleaner syntax -Thufir