In the case of an active spree, it may be a better bet to just hide with your firearm, lest you be confused as the shooter. Though admittedly, there's less chance of that happening as long as your skin is the correct color.
It was a fascinating upset that handed him the win last time.
I don't suspect those people will be giving him another shot.
I don't think anyone will have a choice about "letting a Dem" win unless they try to run someone even worse than Hillary.
I keep trying KDE.
It's beautiful.
It just has too many annoyances and too much clutter and too many silly little things for me to click. It gets in the way.
I will keep trying it though, because, like I said, it's beautiful.
Take mouse wheel sensitivity on Linux. There is no agreed standard for it. Each app decides how far to scroll per wheel notch. There are hacks to accelerate it but they don't work the same way in every app, if they work at all. In Android scrolling is extremely predictable and consistent, and in Windows there is a single place to configure it that works with every app.
I don't disagree with this criticism... But it applies (though differently) to Windows just the same.
Every fucking mouse I have has different scrolling toggles set in its drivers, and then the Windows "acceleration" settings work on top of those with sometimes good results, and sometimes terrible results.
Now this likely doesn't apply to a plain jane mouse, but to my fancy Logitech and Razer mice, it sure as hell does. They're actually *more* consistent in Linux simply due to a lack of manufacturer drivers.
So different problem, technically speaking, but same annoyance.
If you require a "living wage" for full time employees, and not for part time....then yes, you will see less full time jobs.
That's not the proposal. The "Living Wage" is an hourly rate that would be a living wage, if 40 hours are worked.
I'm not sure what you think it is.
2 employees working 20 hours a week will cost more than 1 employee working 40.
Wages will be the same, HR overhead will be higher.
Alright, I guess I do.
The living wage is hourly.
A company will not reduce its amount of full time employees due to a living wage requirement.
Company needs X hours of labor. It matters not if it's X/40, or X/30. The pay is the same.
Now, as far as benefits are concerned- that is a different discussion that you're less wrong about, basically specifically on legal full-time benefit requirements, so quite obviously not relevant to the discussion regarding minimum compensation.
OK, but those sockets can be bound and those files read before dropping privileges.
Yes, we know. You can't undrop your privileges, though.
Those things should be considered fixed for the lifetime of the process anyway.
As I tried to explain, that's where you, and the designers of most of the services that run the web (apache, nginx, postfix, etc) disagree.
In order to change config? Is this really a proposal that we need to incur increased security surface of a root-process for the trivial convenience of being able to change the configuration of a daemon on the fly instead of just reloading it?
A proposal? It's the status quo... You're the one presenting proposals here. I'm the one explaining why they've been rejected.
The principle of least privilege is real. There has to be security surface area in the kernel, no need to just add to the attack surface unless it's absolutely necessary for a critical function.
Ah yes, but we were discussing pragmatic approaches, weren't we?
Don't use ideals and principles in a discussion about pragmatism, it's means you've lost right out the gate.
Ignoring that, of course the principle of least privilege is real. At the same time, so is the principle of least downtime. And the principle of most flexibility.
This absolutely happens in other segments. Can't speak specifically for giants with IP like amazon, but I know a certain building management company in Seattle that operate datacenters at massive losses (under wholly owned subsidiaries), due to obscene rents they charge those datacenters (operating in their buildings)
It's any and all federal dollars. The gotcha that you're looking for isn't that they didn't mention it.
Blue states absolutely take in far more dollars for welfare. The catch is, we more than pay for it with our federal taxes. The red states do not. They pay for theirs with our taxes, as well.
Most of my family lives in the midwest. Arkansas and Oklahoma, specifically.
This is a trope I hear from them a lot. That the local Tyson plant has hired all illegal aliens to replace them.
It's of course false as fuck- the feds stop by monthly and make sure they're not doing it.
Really, the people are economically depressed because their population is growing, and their economy is not.
As the US started requiring more chicken, they didn't put more of it through that factory, they built more factories.
It's a sad situation, made even more sad by the sheer lack of understanding that the victims of that system have for it.
What's even sadder, is that they're being manipulated by racists to clear out the "brown people problem"
No, your rephrasing of the assertion in a way that logically evaluates as false in comparison is completely ridiculous.
At least you've been moderated accordingly. You should be on TV.
This is so fucking true.
Another common manifestation of this is socialized losses, privatized profits.
And really, it makes sense.
Subverted socialism seems like the end-goal of any capitalist system, where the corporations have government influence, unless it is strictly regulated to prevent it.
Of course, but that's true of all languages. As an example: a good chunk of my career has been writing application servers, and years ago I stopped writing them in C/C++ because the development time was too long - with C I could squeeze out nearly every ounce of potential performance, but the cost of doing so was too high (time to dev as well as the resulting complexity). The Python versions were of course slower, but not drastically so (because the servers tended to be I/O bound anyway).
No doubt about it. The development cost of using C makes it unattractive where it isn't strictly needed.
When performance is the main problem, it's often easy to move a small portion of an app to a language closer to the metal, without having to port the whole thing. Last month I finished up a desktop app that takes 3D room models and generates CAD files. I wrote the app in Python but found the performance was not up to snuff (no surprise), so I moved the heavy lifting (maybe 2-3% of the functionality) to C. Performance still wasn't where I wanted it, so I moved that to the GPU.
Agreed. I do the same thing.
In terms of tradeoffs, I used Python to get the whole app working end-to-end much more quickly than I would have in some other languages (especially with the requirements changing out from under me a couple of times along the way), and then moved the little kernel of performance-critical stuff into something more suitable - paying the price for tradeoffs but doing it in a way where the cost-benefit ratio worked out pretty well.
Also no argument here.
Out of curiosity, is there any indication that the difference is actually due to Python?
The language? Na.
The implementation? Absolutely.
Python is a memory hog. Even basic benchmarks show that.
I've found that python isn't bad at all for smaller jobs, but larger ones, particularly resident ones, very often become problematic and need to be restarted, as they get slower and slower (memory fragmentation?)
I also know I'm not alone in noticing this. Pick any large python project, go to its bugs list. You'll find it there.
I'm not arguing that Python is not without its utility. I'm simply saying that it has been used in places where it shouldn't have been. In places where someone failed when they did the cost benefit analysis. Or- as an alternative hypothesis, we have simply decided that producing code is more important than how well the code runs. Perhaps we have just entered an era where quantity is more important than quality.
Christ, you will literally make any shit you can think of up.
Python never "went viral".
Python wasn't even a standardized install on any of the common enterprise Linuxes until the 2000s.
You're like a nerd Trump.
All big shops I worked for, use Shell (bash or ksh) over Perl,
You're so full of shit it's leaking onto the burgers you're flipping.
I did actually only once meet a company that had a small set of Perl scripts and they needed a decade to replace them with Phython.
You're not fooling anyone dude. It's quite obvious to everyone here that you're trying to defend something you are enamored with, even if you don't understand it, against any and all criticism at the cost of your credibility. The internet is held together with perl. I have worked at Fortune 500s, I have worked at startups, and I have never been in a "shop" that didn't use Perl. For good reason. It outperforms nearly every other tool in existence for the processing of large textual data sets (mostly on account of its first-class regex language constructs)
I'm not a ware that my mac or any linux box I used recently has any init scripts or other infrastructure scripts or anything network related that is based on Perl.
This is almost too stupid to respond to, but I'll do it anyways for everyone's benefit.
Init scripts? Of course they're not written in perl. Talk about wrong tool for the job. You see a lot of init scripts written in Python, Commander Linux Guru?
Infrastructure scripts? Swing and a miss. You can grep for \#/usr/bin/perl in/bin;/sbin;/usr/bin;/usr/sbin as well as I can.
Seriously, quit arguing with your betters. Go back to playing on your Mac and thinking you know some shit without botherig the big kids.
Then you should learn from your experience and avoid shops that are either run like shit or run their projects like shit.
Python has expensive procedure calls and encourages a highly layered class hierarchy, which it is particularly poor at doing quickly.
The language itself isn't the problem, it's that the reference implementation of the language, when used with large projects with large working sets, performs worse in terms of speed, and memory usage, than projects written in other languages, using different VMs/interpreters.
Perhaps you should learn the difference.
What the funk has the programming language to do with it?
See above. Come back when you have actually worked with the subject material, because you've made it quite clear that you don't.
In the real world, no one considers it "shit"
I suspect my professional world involves a lot more people who are a lot more important to the ecosystem as a whole than yours does. And my world tells me quite clearly that you're wrong.
and the time / resource constraints hardly matter.
Now only a fucktard completely unhinged with reality would say something so fucking stupid.
Or they had chosen different...
More braindead logic from the armchair brigade.
Or are you now prepared to argue that popularity equates with quality?
it is not like that people don't know how to chose a suitable language.
Armies of PHP5 programmers would like to proselytize their language to you.
Bad news. I think you're going to be stuck in the minors for a while longer.
Your previous ranting about Python was already extremely ignorant, if not even dumb.
You're the toolshed who tried to act like a language is independent of its implementation, and I'm the one who's ignorant? Spare me. Back to debate class with you.
And most (old school) C compilers happily compile it.
I can see you don't use C normally. I do.
All compilers will compile that, as a char and an int are compatible types.
Obviously however, those were stand-ins for dissimilar types.
So, in the case where he was referring to the ASCII representation of an integer, and another integer, he should forgive my criticism, and accept my new criticism: Why would you misstate those as dissimilar types?
Perhaps you should actually learn some programming languages instead of bashing them.
This is hilariously ridiculous.
I average about 60k LOC a month. Perhaps the armchair nerd should quit trying to talk down to the professionals.
Sure, it works. I've just found that where it works, you simply accept the tradeoffs.
I mean, I use Zenoss. It's an amazing product.
The fact that it takes 5 minutes to start up on $4000 hardware, where Nagios does it in about 12 seconds is fine. We accept the trade-off.
Personally, I wish we weren't making the performance trade-off required to use python. More and more aspects of Linux OS tooling runs slower and slower because of it.
Slashdot Mirror
Or that the executives of any publicly traded company in existence aren't paid in ownership?
In the case of an active spree, it may be a better bet to just hide with your firearm, lest you be confused as the shooter. Though admittedly, there's less chance of that happening as long as your skin is the correct color.
It was a fascinating upset that handed him the win last time.
I don't suspect those people will be giving him another shot.
I don't think anyone will have a choice about "letting a Dem" win unless they try to run someone even worse than Hillary.
I keep trying KDE.
It's beautiful.
It just has too many annoyances and too much clutter and too many silly little things for me to click. It gets in the way.
I will keep trying it though, because, like I said, it's beautiful.
Gnome is definitely becoming less tenable.
Every new release, I have to figure out what the current way of getting a fallback Gnome shell working is.
Take mouse wheel sensitivity on Linux. There is no agreed standard for it. Each app decides how far to scroll per wheel notch. There are hacks to accelerate it but they don't work the same way in every app, if they work at all. In Android scrolling is extremely predictable and consistent, and in Windows there is a single place to configure it that works with every app.
I don't disagree with this criticism... But it applies (though differently) to Windows just the same.
Every fucking mouse I have has different scrolling toggles set in its drivers, and then the Windows "acceleration" settings work on top of those with sometimes good results, and sometimes terrible results.
Now this likely doesn't apply to a plain jane mouse, but to my fancy Logitech and Razer mice, it sure as hell does. They're actually *more* consistent in Linux simply due to a lack of manufacturer drivers.
So different problem, technically speaking, but same annoyance.
I don't get paid for LOC.
My CEO is largely unaware of my LOC output.
He's just happy that our ~12,000 customers are happy.
Sure. I get the argument. But if your argument is good, why do you have to make shit up to get people to believe it?
If you require a "living wage" for full time employees, and not for part time....then yes, you will see less full time jobs.
That's not the proposal. The "Living Wage" is an hourly rate that would be a living wage, if 40 hours are worked.
I'm not sure what you think it is.
2 employees working 20 hours a week will cost more than 1 employee working 40.
Wages will be the same, HR overhead will be higher.
Alright, I guess I do.
The living wage is hourly.
A company will not reduce its amount of full time employees due to a living wage requirement.
Company needs X hours of labor. It matters not if it's X/40, or X/30. The pay is the same.
Now, as far as benefits are concerned- that is a different discussion that you're less wrong about, basically specifically on legal full-time benefit requirements, so quite obviously not relevant to the discussion regarding minimum compensation.
OK, but those sockets can be bound and those files read before dropping privileges.
Yes, we know. You can't undrop your privileges, though.
Those things should be considered fixed for the lifetime of the process anyway.
As I tried to explain, that's where you, and the designers of most of the services that run the web (apache, nginx, postfix, etc) disagree.
In order to change config? Is this really a proposal that we need to incur increased security surface of a root-process for the trivial convenience of being able to change the configuration of a daemon on the fly instead of just reloading it?
A proposal? It's the status quo... You're the one presenting proposals here. I'm the one explaining why they've been rejected.
The principle of least privilege is real. There has to be security surface area in the kernel, no need to just add to the attack surface unless it's absolutely necessary for a critical function.
Ah yes, but we were discussing pragmatic approaches, weren't we? Don't use ideals and principles in a discussion about pragmatism, it's means you've lost right out the gate.
Ignoring that, of course the principle of least privilege is real. At the same time, so is the principle of least downtime. And the principle of most flexibility.
This absolutely happens in other segments. Can't speak specifically for giants with IP like amazon, but I know a certain building management company in Seattle that operate datacenters at massive losses (under wholly owned subsidiaries), due to obscene rents they charge those datacenters (operating in their buildings)
It's any and all federal dollars. The gotcha that you're looking for isn't that they didn't mention it.
Blue states absolutely take in far more dollars for welfare. The catch is, we more than pay for it with our federal taxes. The red states do not. They pay for theirs with our taxes, as well.
I"m easily 33% here,
Not including state and local? In the US?
No, no you're not.
Most of my family lives in the midwest. Arkansas and Oklahoma, specifically.
This is a trope I hear from them a lot. That the local Tyson plant has hired all illegal aliens to replace them.
It's of course false as fuck- the feds stop by monthly and make sure they're not doing it.
Really, the people are economically depressed because their population is growing, and their economy is not.
As the US started requiring more chicken, they didn't put more of it through that factory, they built more factories.
It's a sad situation, made even more sad by the sheer lack of understanding that the victims of that system have for it.
What's even sadder, is that they're being manipulated by racists to clear out the "brown people problem"
No, your rephrasing of the assertion in a way that logically evaluates as false in comparison is completely ridiculous.
At least you've been moderated accordingly. You should be on TV.
And if you start trying to force living wage on all full time jobs? Guess what?
No more minimum wage jobs...all part time.
That logic made my brain explode.
Do I need to explain to you why it's so bad?
Better than- that dude makes good money.
Fucking commies pretending to be capitalists.
This is so fucking true.
Another common manifestation of this is socialized losses, privatized profits.
And really, it makes sense.
Subverted socialism seems like the end-goal of any capitalist system, where the corporations have government influence, unless it is strictly regulated to prevent it.
Of course, but that's true of all languages. As an example: a good chunk of my career has been writing application servers, and years ago I stopped writing them in C/C++ because the development time was too long - with C I could squeeze out nearly every ounce of potential performance, but the cost of doing so was too high (time to dev as well as the resulting complexity). The Python versions were of course slower, but not drastically so (because the servers tended to be I/O bound anyway).
No doubt about it. The development cost of using C makes it unattractive where it isn't strictly needed.
When performance is the main problem, it's often easy to move a small portion of an app to a language closer to the metal, without having to port the whole thing. Last month I finished up a desktop app that takes 3D room models and generates CAD files. I wrote the app in Python but found the performance was not up to snuff (no surprise), so I moved the heavy lifting (maybe 2-3% of the functionality) to C. Performance still wasn't where I wanted it, so I moved that to the GPU.
Agreed. I do the same thing.
In terms of tradeoffs, I used Python to get the whole app working end-to-end much more quickly than I would have in some other languages (especially with the requirements changing out from under me a couple of times along the way), and then moved the little kernel of performance-critical stuff into something more suitable - paying the price for tradeoffs but doing it in a way where the cost-benefit ratio worked out pretty well.
Also no argument here.
Out of curiosity, is there any indication that the difference is actually due to Python?
The language? Na.
The implementation? Absolutely.
Python is a memory hog. Even basic benchmarks show that.
I've found that python isn't bad at all for smaller jobs, but larger ones, particularly resident ones, very often become problematic and need to be restarted, as they get slower and slower (memory fragmentation?)
I also know I'm not alone in noticing this. Pick any large python project, go to its bugs list. You'll find it there.
I'm not arguing that Python is not without its utility. I'm simply saying that it has been used in places where it shouldn't have been. In places where someone failed when they did the cost benefit analysis. Or- as an alternative hypothesis, we have simply decided that producing code is more important than how well the code runs. Perhaps we have just entered an era where quantity is more important than quality.
Christ, you will literally make any shit you can think of up.
Python never "went viral".
Python wasn't even a standardized install on any of the common enterprise Linuxes until the 2000s.
You're like a nerd Trump.
All big shops I worked for, use Shell (bash or ksh) over Perl,
You're so full of shit it's leaking onto the burgers you're flipping.
I did actually only once meet a company that had a small set of Perl scripts and they needed a decade to replace them with Phython.
You're not fooling anyone dude. It's quite obvious to everyone here that you're trying to defend something you are enamored with, even if you don't understand it, against any and all criticism at the cost of your credibility. The internet is held together with perl. I have worked at Fortune 500s, I have worked at startups, and I have never been in a "shop" that didn't use Perl. For good reason. It outperforms nearly every other tool in existence for the processing of large textual data sets (mostly on account of its first-class regex language constructs)
I'm not a ware that my mac or any linux box I used recently has any init scripts or other infrastructure scripts or anything network related that is based on Perl.
This is almost too stupid to respond to, but I'll do it anyways for everyone's benefit. Init scripts? Of course they're not written in perl. Talk about wrong tool for the job. You see a lot of init scripts written in Python, Commander Linux Guru? /bin;/sbin;/usr/bin;/usr/sbin as well as I can.
Infrastructure scripts? Swing and a miss. You can grep for \#/usr/bin/perl in
Seriously, quit arguing with your betters. Go back to playing on your Mac and thinking you know some shit without botherig the big kids.
Then you should learn from your experience and avoid shops that are either run like shit or run their projects like shit.
Python has expensive procedure calls and encourages a highly layered class hierarchy, which it is particularly poor at doing quickly.
The language itself isn't the problem, it's that the reference implementation of the language, when used with large projects with large working sets, performs worse in terms of speed, and memory usage, than projects written in other languages, using different VMs/interpreters.
Perhaps you should learn the difference.
What the funk has the programming language to do with it?
See above. Come back when you have actually worked with the subject material, because you've made it quite clear that you don't.
In the real world, no one considers it "shit"
I suspect my professional world involves a lot more people who are a lot more important to the ecosystem as a whole than yours does. And my world tells me quite clearly that you're wrong.
and the time / resource constraints hardly matter.
Now only a fucktard completely unhinged with reality would say something so fucking stupid.
Or they had chosen different ...
More braindead logic from the armchair brigade.
Or are you now prepared to argue that popularity equates with quality?
it is not like that people don't know how to chose a suitable language.
Armies of PHP5 programmers would like to proselytize their language to you.
Bad news. I think you're going to be stuck in the minors for a while longer.
Your previous ranting about Python was already extremely ignorant, if not even dumb.
You're the toolshed who tried to act like a language is independent of its implementation, and I'm the one who's ignorant? Spare me. Back to debate class with you.
And most (old school) C compilers happily compile it.
I can see you don't use C normally. I do.
All compilers will compile that, as a char and an int are compatible types.
Obviously however, those were stand-ins for dissimilar types.
So, in the case where he was referring to the ASCII representation of an integer, and another integer, he should forgive my criticism, and accept my new criticism: Why would you misstate those as dissimilar types?
Perhaps you should actually learn some programming languages instead of bashing them.
This is hilariously ridiculous.
I average about 60k LOC a month. Perhaps the armchair nerd should quit trying to talk down to the professionals.
Sure, it works. I've just found that where it works, you simply accept the tradeoffs.
I mean, I use Zenoss. It's an amazing product.
The fact that it takes 5 minutes to start up on $4000 hardware, where Nagios does it in about 12 seconds is fine. We accept the trade-off.
Personally, I wish we weren't making the performance trade-off required to use python. More and more aspects of Linux OS tooling runs slower and slower because of it.