The Most Loved and Most Disliked Programming Languages Revealed in Stack Overflow Survey (stackoverflow.com)

angel'o'sphere shares a report: The annual Stack Overflow survey is one of the most comprehensive snapshots of how programmers work, with this year's poll being taken by almost 90,000 developers across the globe. This year's survey details which languages developers enjoy using, which are associated with the best paid jobs, which are most commonly used, as well as developers' preferred frameworks, databases, and integrated development environments.

Python's versatility continues to fuel its rise through Stack Overflow's rankings for the "most popular" languages, which lists the languages most widely used by developers. This year's survey finds Python to be the fastest-growing major programming language, with Python edging out Android and enterprise workhorse Java to become the fourth most commonly used language. [...] More importantly for developers, this popularity overlaps with demand for the language, with Julia Silge, data scientist at Stack Overflow, saying that jobs data gathered by Stack Overflow also shows Python to be one of the most in-demand languages sought by employers.

[...] Rust may not have as many users as Python or JavaScript but it has earned a lot of affection from those who use it. For the fourth year running, the language tops Stack Overflow's list of "most-loved" languages, which means the proportion of Rust developers who want to continue working with it is larger than that of any other language.[...] Go stands out as a language that is well paid, while also being sought after and where developers report high levels of job satisfaction. Full report here.

Comments

Self Selected Survey Participants ....

[Troy Roberts]

Always produce significant and valid results .... NOT!

Re:Self Selected Survey Participants ....

[rnturn]

Exactly. Don't even waste your time squinting at these results in an effort to get anything useful from them.

Re:Self Selected Survey Participants ....

[bobby]

Absolutely agree, and it's a big factor in most surveys (which is why people should take them with many grains of salt).

That said, the survey should show stats from and about those who have stronger interests / passions, and of course, those who are willing to take surveys, which I think is a big factor in and of itself.

Re:Self Selected Survey Participants ....

[omibus]

But we are talking about programmers here...I don't think there is a way to produce significant and valid results with that demographic. So stuff like this is about as good as we are likely to get.

Re: Self Selected Survey Participants ....

[Anonymous Coward]

... From stackoverflow.

Next up: the most popular beers revealed in a walmart customer survey.

Re:Self Selected Survey Participants ....

[bobbied]

Always produce significant and valid results .... NOT!

Sure.. But they make for GREAT headlines...(Click bait for $$)

You want to create some fake news narrative? Conduct a POLL and publish the results.. Don't have money to pay a pollster? Do an online poll...

This technique comes right after quoting an "unnamed source" who is claiming some kind of malfeasance is taking place due to some conspiracy or something and writing a "news" story based only on the quote and a bunch of "we think it means..." logical leaps.

Re:Self Selected Survey Participants ....

[Anonymous Coward]

So, survey ranking by which community is most willing and able to game the survey?

Sounds good to me. Popcorn anyone?

Re:Self Selected Survey Participants ....

[Hognoxious]

Red bowl - salted, blue bowl sweet. You know where the fridge is.

Re:Self Selected Survey Participants ....

[Hognoxious]

Don't have money to pay a pollster? Do an online poll...

Should do bullshit yes or do bullshit no.

Just make it all up.

Re:Self Selected Survey Participants ....

[Anonymous Coward]

Good point. I work in at a multi-billion dollar tech company and I do not know a single software engineer that took that survey,
From observation at my company, this is what I see.
C and C++ are in demand the most.
Javascript is well hated but is used in a few projects where they drank the web-based UI kool-aid.
Python is used all over the place but not really in a lot of projects except for glue code.
And all the pay seemed whacked. I am a software engineer and I make a lot more than the highest value on the list. Brand new grads start at around 60-70k at my company.
SQL???? As a programing language? well, I guess so but really?
Go and Rust. Really interesting but not being used at my company for production projects. We only have around 5,000 software engineers right now but we are always hiring.

Re:Self Selected Survey Participants ....

[Anonymous Coward]

Just curious, what do you use for web-based UI's if not JavaScript or do you simply not have a need for web based UI's?

Android?

[iggymanz]

*pulls out moto x pure and stares at it.* There is an Android programming language? who knew?

Re:Android?

[AmiMoJo]

I looked at the survey and it demanded a lot of random personal information, I didn't fill it in. So the data from it is biased towards people who freely give up their personal data for no benefit to themselves.

Re: Android?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds a lot like Android too!

Re:Android?

[iggymanz]

the benefit was it gives megaphone to those who support cute niche flash-in-the-pan fad languages

Re:Android?

[Anonymous Coward]

Java is the Android programming language. And 9/11 was a controlled demolition. AE911Truth Org

Re:Android?

[chispito]

*pulls out moto x pure and stares at it.* There is an Android programming language? who knew?

Reread the sentence

with Python edging out Android and enterprise workhorse Java

It is not well constructed but a second glance clarifies things. It would be better written, if still clunk, thus

with Python edging out Android-and-enterprise-workhorse Java

Re:Android?

[Joce640k]

+1 Insightful

Everything about the list screamed "fashionable".

Re:Android?

[cascadingstylesheet]

the benefit was it gives megaphone to those who support cute niche flash-in-the-pan fad languages

Python was released in 1991.

Re:Android?

[cascadingstylesheet]

+1 Insightful

Everything about the list screamed "fashionable".

Everything? Python was released in 1991.

Guido is "fashionable"?

Re:Android?

[Hognoxious]

Clearly the parole terms weren't strict enough.

Re:Android?

[Hognoxious]

Or simply "with Python edging out Java, the Android & enterprise workhorse".

Re: Android?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Java workhorse out with Python edging Android & enterprise

Re: Android?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the point of the exercise is to preserve the original meaning. Or at least *some* meaning.

Re: Android?

[cascadingstylesheet]

I tip my hat to that joke sir. Well done.

Re:Android?

[iggymanz]

wasn't speaking of python though (nor java even though i hate it)...further down the list

Swift should be at the top

[Anonymous Coward]

This survey is flawed and biased. Many people are saying that Swift is BY FAR the best language, and is now used by pretty much all actual pro developers worldwide. Many people say the vast majority of coding happening today happens exclusively for iPhone, and on that critical platform Swift is #1. Everything else is just lamestream noise (and shitty noise, at that).

Re:Swift should be at the top

[Anonymous Coward]

I will agree that Swift is a much, much nicer language to work with than Objective C. By a very long shot.

With that said, it is not my bread and butter. In fact, these days I've been doing far more .NET Core (C#) and node.js (TypeScript) projects for money than I've been doing iPhone or Mac OS development.

And for the first time in a long time, I've actually enjoyed the experience, especially since all 5 of these projects (3 .NET Core and 2 node.js) absolutely required cross platform compatibility. Not a big problem for node.js, but the big surprise was just how well the .NET Core projects came together, considering how much that platform has moved in the last few years. If you can just stay out of the incomplete portions until they've had the time to bake, you will find a solid performer.

I don't know what the FOSS community over at M$ have been drinking (kool-aid or otherwise), but it appears to have been working.

Re:Swift should be at the top

[Anonymous Coward]

posting as AC again Microsoft shill? username or you're a shill, that's AIHTS.

(all I have to say)

Re: Swift should be at the top

[phantomfive]

Swift is crap. The major complaint about Objective-C was that it had all the baggage of C. Well guess what? Swift has all the baggage of C *and* Objective-C. It's hard to be a language designer these days because you need to know all the language paradigms and good ideas in other languages, so I have sympathy for the Swift designers, but not the language. Oh, and while we're at it, Xcode looks like it was built by UX designers, not by people with domain knowledge of the programming ecosystem.

Re:Swift should be at the top

[Megol]

username or STFU.

(shut the fuck up)

Re: Swift should be at the top

[JaredOfEuropa]

The problem with Objective-C is not baggage, but what it lacks. Like easy to use constructs to handle asynchronous calls, e.g.: "Connect to this website, make this request when the connection is established, wait for an answer, and do this when it comes through, and in the meantime continue running the rest of the app", in other words the better part of control flow in typical apps. Doing this in a language like C# results in much cleaner code. Can't speak for Swift, though.

Re:Swift should be at the top

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't we all be friends? Let's be nice to each other!

Re: Swift should be at the top

[phantomfive]

C# yield is very nice.

Re:Swift should be at the top

[Escogido]

what the survey results actually say is that people who choose / have to to code in swift like it more than people who choose / have to code in some other language X. they don't say that everyone loves swift, or that swift IS the best language. self-selection.

Re:Swift should be at the top

[Anonymous Coward]

How can a language be good if you have to fix bugs every time to change the version of the stack? And when you change any part of that stack you have to change the rest of the stack?

Re:Swift should be at the top

[Anonymous Coward]

> I've been doing far more .NET Core (C#) and node.js (TypeScript) projects for money than I've been doing iPhone or Mac OS development.

All that tells me is that you are a dumb/shitty developer. Many people are saying that Swift programmers make 7 figures easy. DotNot and javascrapt a fraction that.

Re: Swift should be at the top

[Anonymous Coward]

Found the pc-tard.

Re: Swift should be at the top

[phantomfive]

I'm on Slashdot, I'm using Linux. At least get the OS right.

Re:Swift should be at the top

[Anonymous Coward]

I will agree that Swift is a much, much nicer language to work with than Objective C. By a very long shot.

Dart is even better.

Re: Swift should be at the top

[Viol8]

Perhaps it shouldve wiped your arse for you too? If you want async go learn about threading or multiprocess with IPC FFS instead of being a coding baby and expecting some plug and play lego brick solution to every basic problem you encounter.

Re: Swift should be at the top

[Viol8]

Objective C is just the very poor mans C++. The latter is still being developed (2020 version out next year) whereas the former fossilised in the late 90s. No sane dev ever wanted to learn it unless they had absolutely no choice.

Re: Swift should be at the top

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL. Linux. Still a pc-tard, but in a cheap suit.

Re: Swift should be at the top

[Anonymous Coward]

So what you're saying is that you enjoy writing the equivalent of Future, Promise, Async, or IO again and again for every single asynchronous, possibly failing request you have to deal with?

Re: Swift should be at the top

[Anonymous Coward]

C++ was a terrible language for a very long time, it started to improve with C++11 but for a long time it was stale.
Objective C was miles ahead of C++ for a long time, that started to change since C++14/17.

Objective-C has grown quite a bit in the last 10 years as well, including better literal, iterator-for-loop and of course it fully supports c++17.

Re: Swift should be at the top

[Anonymous Coward]

> Objective C is just the very poor mans C++

Clearly you've never worked with it extensively. It's the C programmer's Smalltalk.

> No sane dev ever wanted to learn it unless they had absolutely no choice.

On the contrary, learning Objective-C felt like a breath of fresh sanity in its simplicity, after I struggled with C++ for a decade.

Re: Swift should be at the top

[Viol8]

" It's the C programmer's Smalltalk."

No, its smalltalk syntax nailed onto C in a hideous mashup that never really worked.

Re: Swift should be at the top

[Viol8]

Why not, its not that fucking hard. Perhaps learn your trade as you obviously have no idea how to do multi threaded programming and are lost without someone having done the hard work for you. Maybe web dev would be more your ability level.

Stack Overflow/Exchange is garbage.

[Anonymous Coward]

The site is pretty much controlled by the few with thousands of rep points. They can pretty much vote together to delete anything they disagree with.

Re:Stack Overflow/Exchange is garbage.

[pegdhcp]

You, dear AC, seem to be new or very well-bred for our nasty community. Let me explain in generally accepted expression style.
Stack Overflow is full of dicks, who does not know what to do with themselves, so they use that site as a last resort.
It is unfortunate there are also some extremely knowledgable people there and two sets are slightly overlapping. If I can find any better reference to a question I research about, I skip their site that day for that question, always. In a way I also use that site as a last resort.

Re:Stack Overflow/Exchange is garbage.

[Anonymous Coward]

You, dear AC, seem to be new or very well-bred for our nasty community. Let me explain in generally accepted expression style.
Stack Overflow is full of dicks, who does not know what to do with themselves, so they use that site as a last resort.
It is unfortunate there are also some extremely knowledgable people there and two sets are slightly overlapping. If I can find any better reference to a question I research about, I skip their site that day for that question, always. In a way I also use that site as a last resort.

Wrong.

It's a site with actual standards where there's usually someone to tell you that you wrote garbage code, tell you why it's garbage code, and back it up with quotes from relevant language standards.

"StackOverflow won't hold my pee-pee and make me feel good about myself! Waaaah! Waaaah!"

Thank the powers that be that some place still exists with standards that isn't afraid to say, "Your shit doesn't measure up!"

Because guess what?

That's reality.

Too fucking bad you're too sheltered and weak and childish to survive that.

Reality don't give a fuck.

And neither do I.

Re:Stack Overflow/Exchange is garbage.

[Anonymous Coward]

Site seems to be full of acolytes from various churches and cults (DIV, camelCase, jQuery, etc). Sometimes it's very difficult to pry a useful answer out of those people, You have to wade through pages and pages of "you don't need...[because I don't know...]"

Re:Stack Overflow/Exchange is garbage.

[Anonymous Coward]

Reputation gained by farming trivial homework questions which have absolutely no connection with real world skill or experience.

The difficult real world problem encountered by experience developers are by definition extremely nich, if you get or provide an answer it will not any reputation while stupid cargo cult solutions that don't actually address the real issue are prefered over the accurate useful answers. Unit test case are notably by their rarity. I could go on but frankly have better things to do with my time.

Re: Stack Overflow/Exchange is garbage.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you ever need that? Ask something else! Ur stopid!

Loving a language?

[pegdhcp]

Once Frank Herbert had Gurney Halleck to tell Paul Atreides, thus to us as reader:
"Mood? What has mood to do with it? You fight when the necessity arises — no matter the mood! Mood's a thing for cattle or making love or playing the baliset. It's not for fighting."
Similarly loving a language has nothing to do with its utilisation or benefits, it is for (well not cattle, but) cowboys who love to brag about last huge program they wrote, which contains 1.000 or more lines, even excluding whitespace that is...

Re:Loving a language?

[chispito]

Once Frank Herbert had Gurney Halleck to tell Paul Atreides, thus to us as reader: "Mood? What has mood to do with it? You fight when the necessity arises — no matter the mood! Mood's a thing for cattle or making love or playing the baliset. It's not for fighting." Similarly loving a language has nothing to do with its utilisation or benefits, it is for (well not cattle, but) cowboys who love to brag about last huge program they wrote, which contains 1.000 or more lines, even excluding whitespace that is...

I'm pretty sure people who "love" a programming language really love not having to use other languages. It's not that complicated and not necessarily an ego thing.

Re:Loving a language?

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose, but I fucking hate Python and it's also a shitty language.

Re:Loving a language?

[Opyros]

The enjoyment of one's tools is an essential ingredient of successful work.

--Donald Knuth, Seminumerical Algorithms

Re:Loving a language?

[iMadeGhostzilla]

Of course -- to solve a problem you need an inspiration, whose appearance you cannot control, but is more likely to appear when you are relaxed and open for subtle voices in your mind. And you're more likely to be relaxed if you use a tool you love rather than one you are afraid of.

Re:Loving a language?

[Anonymous Coward]

Similarly loving a language has nothing to do with its utilisation or benefits, it is for (well not cattle, but) cowboys who love to brag about last huge program they wrote, which contains 1.000 or more lines, even excluding whitespace that is...

1000 lines is huge huh. You clearly don't belong here. Or at the very least, you should refrain from talking as if you know anything about programming.

Fuck Python

[illiac_1962]

All this Python popularity reminds me of the rise of BASIC's popularity. It won't be long before people think you can write serious, user facing applications with that steaming pile. I can defintitely get behind using it for infrastructure automation and analytics but fuck trying to build anything large. But alas, the non technical will hear buzz of its popularity and the inexperienced will be allowed to build shit with it. God help us all.

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

Agreed. I inherited a lot of Python code and any language that depends on whitespace the way Python does makes me miserable. A language where you can have a sim that runs a couple hours and then somehow a function that expects doubles gets a string and blows up sucks. Real languages make that impossible. Don't get me started on debugging. If I were in a room with Guido it would be all I could do not to punch him in the face.

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

As I tell my Python-enamored son every day: "Python is just Perl with the curly bits rubbed off". What I don't say is Perl just a universal scripting language and little better than Shell Scripts on any system.

C is a language
C++ is for programmers whose managers read something about OOP but don't know C
Java is for programmers who don't know C but think OOP is a neat thing
COBOL and FORTRAN are just Excel without the grid lines.
Everything else is just a scripting language to control either an OS or a browser app

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot assembly in your delusional rant. Oh and Emacs.

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

You go up to your son every day and tell him that? Don't be shocked when one day he stops talking to you forever. You're a fucking lunatic.

Re:Fuck Python

[sinij]

A car analogy: You are complaining that your ride-on lawn mower doesn't get great highway gas mileage.

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

Many of those ‘non-technical people’ lack a staff programmer and are developing software to get actual work done. See: MS Access and VBA.

It’s not all about you and your masturbatory software fantasies, junior.

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

The whitespace thing bothered me a bit before I got used to it.
It isn't a good choice but it isn't the thing that is going to come back and bite you.

IMO the biggest problem with Python is the type handling.
What it excels at is moving compilation error to runtime exceptions.

It is so easy to get code that will work fine in most cases but in that odd scenario you end up with object of the wrong type and a bit down the line it is passed to something that doesn't handle it.
Even C would be able to push out a compile time warning and C is considered to be bad at it.
With Python you will find out about the problem when the end user gets it.

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

This. It's all about the applications, and the users' ability to get them working.

Users want to be able to install an app from an app store with one click and have it just work. Or click one installer with the same result. Or run one command-line installer with the same result.

What they definitely do not want is the module and system dependency hell forced upon you by python. Deferring errors to run-time just exacerbates this. I lost 3 hours of my life trying to get a python app running on two different distros, Fedora and Debian. Eventually I came to the conclusion that the hidapi and hid modules installed by pip3 are not currently compatible with each other. Getting to that point was pain in itself; cython needs the header packages installed which are named differenlty in different distros - libusb-devel (fedora) or libusb-dev (Debian). The best pip3 can do is throw a linker error during install. No pre-install dependency warning, no idea of what system package needs to be installed.

It seems that to get python apps working you need significant expertise in both python installs and base OS packaging.

Re:Fuck Python

[drinkypoo]

As I tell my Python-enamored son every day: "Python is just Perl with the curly bits rubbed off". What I don't say is Perl just a universal scripting language and little better than Shell Scripts on any system.

No way. Perl is grossly better than shell scripts, at least where the job is better done with perl. Some very simple jobs are still best done with a shell script. If you have to do anything complicated, though, perl is going to use a lot less resources because you're not having to construct complex pipes to do simple things.

Perl only ever made sense where there was a lot of string handling to do. Alas, people used it for other things as well because they understood perl, but not the languages they should have been using (Mostly C or C++, in Perl's heyday.)

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

You hate dependency hell? Be thankful you aren't stuck with Java. Spend hours trying to get two Java applications to run on the same machine; forget about getting them both to run on two different machines, let alone two different operating systems.

Re:Fuck Python

[UnknownSoldier]

*Already* happened with JavaSchit, er, Javascript -- the BASIC of the new millennium! /me ducks /s =P

When you have to use string literal HACKS like "use strict"; to catch typos -- the language is fucked.

But that's what you get when a language was designed and implemented in 10 days by an amateur and learnt NOTHING about WHY professionals hated noob languages like BASIC.

Re:Fuck Python

[prunus.avium]

Ummm....don't look at OpenStack then. It's all Python.

Admittedly, it's all "infrastructure automation" interfacing with hypervisors and storage arrays. But it is a large project.

Re:Fuck Python

[prunus.avium]

But that's the problem with almost every language. It's the old saying, "If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

Perl programmers extended Perl to be able to do stuff that it was not suited to doing.

The same thing is happening now with JavaScript and Python.

My personal problems with Perl are the hieroglyphics and the "default variable". There is an implied target variable that I don't ever actually see? Fuck that.

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't tell if you are joking or just very, very stupid.

Re:Fuck Python

[Rick Schumann]

In my last job I had to learn some Python.
Python kinda gives me an icecream headache. When I spent an hour trying to figure out why the code blew it's brains out when I took a three-element array and put only ONE element in it, I wanted to grab the workstation and defenestrate it.
So I started with something like: temp[-10, 50, 110]
..and needed it to be something like this: temp[50]
..which, in any sane language (like C/C++), would've been fine, but in Python? Oh, no no no!
In Python, it had to be like this: temp[50,]
Mind: BLOWN. *facepalm*

The three main features of Python so far as I can see, are:
1. You don't have to compile it to executable code, it's an interpreted language, everything is plaintext
2. You more-or-less can't completely crash the whole computer running Python code
3. It's more-or-less BASIC for the 21st Century, any fool can learn to code in it.
Otherwise if I was writing something that needed speed, small size, direct hardware access, and so on? C/C++ or Assembly.

Re: Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't have a clue, obviously.

While you try to write braindead boilerplate code. In the same time that you still laying the foundation in whatever 'real language' you like, I will have finished 2 user facing applications plus a major machine learning pipeline that scales horizontally, all in Python.

But hey whatever floats your boat. Or rather keeps it in place. I like speed and wind. Fast is better.

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

"If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

Huh, I thought it went: "If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like the back of your boss's head."

Re:Fuck Python

[dbrueck]

Language choice is fairly subjective, so if you don't like Python, that's cool. But there are a number of solid reasons why it has grown in popularity and it's not because it's something new - the language is almost 30 years old now. I've been using it for about 20 years now and for me it has been terrific for one-off utility scripts written by one person to huge projects with many developers at a couple of different Fortune 50 companies, and everything in between.

Many of the alleged reasons why Python would be unusable for certain scenarios (e.g. large projects) tend to be fallacies or more theoretical problems than actual problems.

The choice of programming language *always* involves tradeoffs. Python isn't the best tool for every job, but in many scenarios the benefits have outweighed the costs in a pretty lopsided manner. To each his own of course.

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

he used the F word, he must be important

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

As I said: "I inherited". I never would have chosen to write all this code in Python to being with if it had been my choice.

Re:Fuck Python

[Dragonslicer]

Python kinda gives me an icecream headache. When I spent an hour trying to figure out why the code blew it's brains out when I took a three-element array and put only ONE element in it, I wanted to grab the workstation and defenestrate it. So I started with something like: temp[-10, 50, 110] ..and needed it to be something like this: temp[50] ..which, in any sane language (like C/C++), would've been fine, but in Python? Oh, no no no! In Python, it had to be like this: temp[50,] Mind: BLOWN. *facepalm*

None of that is true about lists - foo = [50] works just fine.

Are you thinking of tuples, maybe? If you want to create a one-item tuple, you have to put in an extra comma so that the interpreter knows that you want a tuple instead of just using parentheses for something like forcing order of operations; you have to write (50,) instead of just (50). I agree that the syntax for that is somewhat annoying, but I would also question why you're creating a one-item tuple in the first place.

Re:Fuck Python

[fluffernutter]

When you write pseudo-code do you write all the brackets? The point of python is to be like pseudo-code but actually be functional. If you're writing something where speed doesn't matter that much but you need absolute flexibility in functionality Python will get you there quick. If you're writing a driver, use C for chrissakes.

Re:Fuck Python

[fluffernutter]

Assembly is like being in the Matrix.

Re:Fuck Python

[fluffernutter]

Like a web server? Isn't HTML all "string handling"?

Re:Fuck Python

[fluffernutter]

If I could pick a language that does what I want and I could learn quickly (ie. any fool can learn it) then why wouldn't I use it? Are you saying I should spend extra months learning a horribly complex language that I only need 10% the capability of?

Re: Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean, like YouTube?

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

> It won't be long before people think you can write serious, user facing applications with that steaming pile.

This has been going on for decades. Where have you been?

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

That programming language for browsers would probably be JavaScript, sport. Try to keep up. HTML is a text markup language.

Points for being the first blockhead to screw that up, I guess.

Re: Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm that is true. I will kick my son in the face when he gets home from school.

Re:Fuck Python

[skids]

Alas, people used it for other things as well because they understood perl, but not the languages they should have been using (Mostly C or C++, in Perl's heyday.)

Beg to differ. I learned C and C++ way before Perl 5, and subsequently used a lot of Perl 5 (yes, also for things other than string handling.) One thing I liked the most about it was the error messages were way better than C was at the time... something I'm glad the Perl culture is taking great pains to carry forward into Perl 6.

What people didn't understand and didn't want to use was autoconf and all the other glue necessary to make C/libc portable. Because no sane person wants to.

Re:Fuck Python

[DamnOregonian]

It's my experience that large python projects tend to run like large java project- shit. absolutel shit.
Though there must be some merit to the language, because there definitely seems to be a trend toward writing big projects in that shitpile of a language, even at the expense of them running within reasonable time/resource constraints.

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

> 1. You don't have to compile it to executable code, it's an interpreted language, everything is plaintext

This is a function of the implementation. With the standard Python, the code is compiled to byte code and then run. If you are importing modules you will see .pyc files which are pre-compiled.

> Otherwise if I was writing something that needed speed, small size, direct hardware access, and so on? C/C++ or Assembly.

For many tasks with Python it can be written in a few minutes and take 30 to run. With C/C++ it may take a couple of hours to write so that it can run in a couple of minutes. Which achieves the results faster ?

Re:Fuck Python

[dbrueck]

Some amount of that could be just the sucky nature to lots of large software projects - we've probably all seen big projects go bad in any number of different languages.

Like I said to the other guy, if it's not for you, great. But there's really nothing in the language that makes it inherently bad for large projects (and lots of things that makes it good for them). We've used Python on a number of very large projects and it worked out well for us.

Re:Fuck Python

[DamnOregonian]

Sure, it works. I've just found that where it works, you simply accept the tradeoffs.
I mean, I use Zenoss. It's an amazing product.
The fact that it takes 5 minutes to start up on $4000 hardware, where Nagios does it in about 12 seconds is fine. We accept the trade-off.
Personally, I wish we weren't making the performance trade-off required to use python. More and more aspects of Linux OS tooling runs slower and slower because of it.

Re:Fuck Python

[dbrueck]

Sure, it works. I've just found that where it works, you simply accept the tradeoffs.

Of course, but that's true of all languages. As an example: a good chunk of my career has been writing application servers, and years ago I stopped writing them in C/C++ because the development time was too long - with C I could squeeze out nearly every ounce of potential performance, but the cost of doing so was too high (time to dev as well as the resulting complexity). The Python versions were of course slower, but not drastically so (because the servers tended to be I/O bound anyway).

When performance is the main problem, it's often easy to move a small portion of an app to a language closer to the metal, without having to port the whole thing. Last month I finished up a desktop app that takes 3D room models and generates CAD files. I wrote the app in Python but found the performance was not up to snuff (no surprise), so I moved the heavy lifting (maybe 2-3% of the functionality) to C. Performance still wasn't where I wanted it, so I moved that to the GPU.

In terms of tradeoffs, I used Python to get the whole app working end-to-end much more quickly than I would have in some other languages (especially with the requirements changing out from under me a couple of times along the way), and then moved the little kernel of performance-critical stuff into something more suitable - paying the price for tradeoffs but doing it in a way where the cost-benefit ratio worked out pretty well.

I mean, I use Zenoss. It's an amazing product. The fact that it takes 5 minutes to start up on $4000 hardware, where Nagios does it in about 12 seconds is fine. We accept the trade-off.

Out of curiosity, is there any indication that the difference is actually due to Python?

Re:Fuck Python

[Rick Schumann]

..but I would also question why you're creating a one-item tuple in the first place.
It was someone else's test script, and I needed it to run a single temperature test on a DUT, not multiple temperatures. It couldn't be rewritten just to avoid this it had to be run with minimal modifications.

Re:Fuck Python

[Dragonslicer]

If that someone else was using a tuple to store a list of values, they were Doing It Wrong (TM). That's what lists (a.k.a. arrays in many other languages) are for. Tuples are more like structs.

If the tuple was just being used as an iterable anyway (e.g. for temp in temps:), you could have replaced it with a list and it would have worked the same way.

Re: Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

Python is what you come up with if you don't know anything about programming languages and decide to create one anyways.

It hides so much from the programmer for no reason and makes simple tasks like printing a single line via multiple print statements unnecessarily complicated.

It's a shitty language for which there are far better choices available.

Re:Fuck Python

[Rick Schumann]

*shrug* whatev. I'm glad I don't get paid to code for a living and I'm glad I made that decision a long time ago. I'd rather work with hardware anyway. Also if I ever wanted to write anything serious I'd use C anyway not Python. Despite the legitimate business uses for it I take Python about as seriously as I'd take BASIC today.

Re:Fuck Python

[Dragonslicer]

Would you blame C because some idiot used a struct instead of an array? Because that's basically what you're doing.

Re:Fuck Python

[angel'o'sphere]

It won't be long before people think you can write serious, user facing applications with that steaming pile.
No idea why you consider it a "steaming pile".
a) the language is beautiful, you hardly can claim that about any other language
b) the libraries are excellet
c) you are simply wrong, there is plenty of large software written in Python, e.g. Eve Online, the MMO with the biggest concurrently online community in a single game world on the planet.
d) the language is portable and has enough GUI bindings to deploy on all majour PC, unix and mobile platforms

Probably you are not aware what desktop applications are actually on your PC written in Python ...

Re:Fuck Python

[angel'o'sphere]

So you did not both to learn C++ just as an intellectual mind masturbation fun?
What a shame!

Re:Fuck Python

[angel'o'sphere]

Then you should learn from your experience and avoid shops that are either run like shit or run their projects like shit.

What the funk has the programming language to do with it? If it was a C++ project with unexperienced programmers, I would understand your grudge, but would still blame the shop hiring unexperienced people.

shitpile of a language, even at the expense of them running within reasonable time/resource constraints.
In the real world, no one considers it "shit" and the time / resource constraints hardly matter. Or they had chosen different ... it is not like that people don't know how to chose a suitable language.

And then again: the biggest enemy of maintainable software is: success!! Because it is successful it gets extended, upgraded, transformed and so on ...

Re:Fuck Python

[angel'o'sphere]

I don't remember when I used Perl the first time, probably around 1990, Perl 4.
I started with C++ a little bit earlier.

I just found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... I used C++ on Sun Solaris (cfront obviously, not sure when we had a g++ compiler), Think C was the first software I bought, well, cant remember what I bought for my Apple ][, probably I only used school licensed software.

So I guess I started C++ around 1989, I started studying at the university 1987 ...

Re:Fuck Python

[DamnOregonian]

Then you should learn from your experience and avoid shops that are either run like shit or run their projects like shit.

Python has expensive procedure calls and encourages a highly layered class hierarchy, which it is particularly poor at doing quickly.
The language itself isn't the problem, it's that the reference implementation of the language, when used with large projects with large working sets, performs worse in terms of speed, and memory usage, than projects written in other languages, using different VMs/interpreters.
Perhaps you should learn the difference.

What the funk has the programming language to do with it?

See above. Come back when you have actually worked with the subject material, because you've made it quite clear that you don't.

In the real world, no one considers it "shit"

I suspect my professional world involves a lot more people who are a lot more important to the ecosystem as a whole than yours does. And my world tells me quite clearly that you're wrong.

and the time / resource constraints hardly matter.

Now only a fucktard completely unhinged with reality would say something so fucking stupid.

Or they had chosen different ...

More braindead logic from the armchair brigade.
Or are you now prepared to argue that popularity equates with quality?

it is not like that people don't know how to chose a suitable language.

Armies of PHP5 programmers would like to proselytize their language to you.

Bad news. I think you're going to be stuck in the minors for a while longer.

Re:Fuck Python

[Rick Schumann]

I think you need to drop this or I might get the idea you're Just Another Internet Troll, because you're going on about it well beyond what I consider reasonable.

Re:Fuck Python

[DamnOregonian]

Of course, but that's true of all languages. As an example: a good chunk of my career has been writing application servers, and years ago I stopped writing them in C/C++ because the development time was too long - with C I could squeeze out nearly every ounce of potential performance, but the cost of doing so was too high (time to dev as well as the resulting complexity). The Python versions were of course slower, but not drastically so (because the servers tended to be I/O bound anyway).

No doubt about it. The development cost of using C makes it unattractive where it isn't strictly needed.

When performance is the main problem, it's often easy to move a small portion of an app to a language closer to the metal, without having to port the whole thing. Last month I finished up a desktop app that takes 3D room models and generates CAD files. I wrote the app in Python but found the performance was not up to snuff (no surprise), so I moved the heavy lifting (maybe 2-3% of the functionality) to C. Performance still wasn't where I wanted it, so I moved that to the GPU.

Agreed. I do the same thing.

In terms of tradeoffs, I used Python to get the whole app working end-to-end much more quickly than I would have in some other languages (especially with the requirements changing out from under me a couple of times along the way), and then moved the little kernel of performance-critical stuff into something more suitable - paying the price for tradeoffs but doing it in a way where the cost-benefit ratio worked out pretty well.

Also no argument here.

Out of curiosity, is there any indication that the difference is actually due to Python?

The language? Na.
The implementation? Absolutely.
Python is a memory hog. Even basic benchmarks show that.
I've found that python isn't bad at all for smaller jobs, but larger ones, particularly resident ones, very often become problematic and need to be restarted, as they get slower and slower (memory fragmentation?)
I also know I'm not alone in noticing this. Pick any large python project, go to its bugs list. You'll find it there.
I'm not arguing that Python is not without its utility. I'm simply saying that it has been used in places where it shouldn't have been. In places where someone failed when they did the cost benefit analysis. Or- as an alternative hypothesis, we have simply decided that producing code is more important than how well the code runs. Perhaps we have just entered an era where quantity is more important than quality.

Re: Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, python is great for rapid development! The main drawback is that itâ(TM)s relatively slow at runtime â" from what Iâ(TM)ve seen, regular C/C++ is approximately 50 times faster on average, if you pull all the tricks out you can get it up to 10,000 times faster by using OpenMP, Cache blocking, and SIMD, but writing that code can be very difficult and time consuming.

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

just you wait until they release version 3. i hear it's going to be really great!

Re: Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

The graphics portion of EVE online isnâ(TM)t written in python

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

Which achieves the results faster ?

Depends on the intent, if it is one and done process then hacking together Python script is fine, but if it s process to be run over and over then you want something that can run in a couple of minutes.

Re:Fuck Python

[Dragonslicer]

You're the one that wrote a rant that is factually incorrect. That seems more like trolling than my correction of your misunderstanding.

Re: Fuck Python

[sin_vraal]

Perl is still the best by far. Itâ(TM)s not hard to write. But itâ(TM)s hard for junior devs and sweat shop devs to write well. Oh, itâ(TM)s slow? Uh 1, we live in the distrusted age, extra servers covers for that when itâ(TM)s important and 2, since when was it ever an issue, or visibly causing slow downs anyhow? 3, when Iâ(TM)m doing something intensive Iâ(TM)d just c(+) anyhow. Python is great when you want your devs to be hammers in a world of nails. Itâ(TM)s painfully useless for readability in complex apps. God forbid you move code inside a new block

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

Perl programmers extended Perl to be able to do stuff that it was not suited to doing.

Such as?

Frankly, everything Perl 5 does is mostly fine. It seems to act and perform about as well as any other programming language.

I don't think the language has been extended into "not-suited" territory yet. (Well, there are some joke modules, but every language has them...)

Unless you mean that you're still thinking of Perl as a glorified sed/awk? It hasn't been that for over 25 years.

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you're clearly and objectively just trolling now. Bugger off.

Re:Fuck Python

[dbrueck]

I've found that python isn't bad at all for smaller jobs, but larger ones, particularly resident ones, very often become problematic and need to be restarted, as they get slower and slower (memory fragmentation?)

I also know I'm not alone in noticing this. Pick any large python project, go to its bugs list. You'll find it there.

I'm not arguing that Python is not without its utility. I'm simply saying that it has been used in places where it shouldn't have been. In places where someone failed when they did the cost benefit analysis. Or- as an alternative hypothesis, we have simply decided that producing code is more important than how well the code runs. Perhaps we have just entered an era where quantity is more important than quality.

I hear ya, and I know we're just swapping anecdotes, but I've run into the opposite - one area where it has really shined for us is in the really big projects. These were projects that probably wouldn't have ever made it out in the door in a lower level language but Python helped us keep the complexity manageable, which in turn made ongoing maintenance manageable. One large project in particular is nearing the decade mark since it's first release and it has really aged well - it's been solidly plugging along all that time and we've been able to expand the feature set significantly throughout that time. Obviously Python isn't the only factor here, but it's been a huge positive factor.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion, have a great day!

Re:Fuck Python

[drinkypoo]

Unless you mean that you're still thinking of Perl as a glorified sed/awk? It hasn't been that for over 25 years.

Personally, I think of perl as glue. It's good at tying things together. There are modules for many things. In fact, that's one of the many things that annoys me about Python. We had perl already, and its massive library of modules, and then Python came along and had to start all over. What a waste of effort. Perl was perfectly fine for all the things being done with Python now.

Re:Fuck Python

[angel'o'sphere]

You seem to mix up hobbyists with professionals Armies of PHP5 programmers would like to proselytize their language to you.
The rest is just an insulting rant and hardly even correct, except for the function call speed. Good luck with that attitude.

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

Perl programmers extended Perl to be able to do stuff that it was not suited to doing.

Such as?

Frankly, everything Perl 5 does is mostly fine. It seems to act and perform about as well as any other programming language.

Perl isn't suited to writing maintainable code that is more than a page in length. It isn't suited to writing code with good data structures (bad data structures, yes, those are easy to do in Perl - a lot of bad ideas are easy to do in Perl). Perl isn't suited to doing good object oriented programming, which is the foundation of modern software engineering.

The designer of the Perl language ignored decades of research into designing good programming languages. Then when he started copying ideas from other languages, he made the Perl version terrible (again completely ignoring all kinds of research and examples that showed what not to do - the language is an unbelievable hack). Even for some of the things that Perl is known for (such as regular expressions), it's far less efficient then some of the alternatives out there (as Russ Cox pointed out in his famous paper).

Basically, Perl is really well suited to writing terrible code - far more so than just about any other language. It's a disaster of a programming language.

Anybody that thinks otherwise doesn't understand what is required to write maintainable code in a team environment.

Anybody using Perl in this day and age for anything new that's over a page in length is doing their employer a disservice. Either Ruby or Python would be a far better choice. Both languages have been around long enough to be stable and reasonably efficient - they have great text processing capabilities, and they are far superior for writing maintainable code. Perl is garbage.

Re:Fuck Python

[Rich.Miller.6]

I'll disagree with this. Perl lets you write beautiful code: clear, efficient, and about as close to bug-free as we can achieve with current technology. I was responsible for a suite of 600 tools written in about 160,000 lines of Perl. We had a release of new and improved code every three weeks, typically with no known bugs. The principal documentation writer told us to stop providing release documentation because the code was so clear that she (a non-programmer!) could just read it. The tools produced log files that let us fix about 95% of bugs without having to reproduce the, because the logs showed precisely what had gone wrong and where. If there's another programming language that supports this kind of work and productivity I'd like to hear about it.

Re:Fuck Python

[Waccoon]

The problem is not indentation or beauty, but termination.

I find if fascinating how many people will curse Javascipt's tendency to automatically (and wrongly) terminate lines when you don't use semicolons, which is why you should always use semicolons even if the language lets you cheat. Yet these same people love using whitespace to both start and terminate a block of logic in Python.

You know, it's okay to admit a mistake was made. It's idiotic to promote it as a major feature.

Re:Fuck Python

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to forgive Rick. Calling you a troll when he can't defend his position is his way of retreating to his safe space. Like most snowflakes he will now stick his fingers in his ears and change "i can't hear you."

Worst Software Site Survey Says?

[Tablizer]

Worst Software Site: Stackoverflow

If you post one dumb question or unpopular opinion, you are essentially banned from the site for a year.

They should have a ranking system similar to Slashdot. If it's a bad question or statement, then let the rankings effectively hide it. If one wants to see low-ranked content, they can change their filter settings.

Re:Worst Software Site Survey Says?

[Waffle Iron]

They should have a ranking system similar to Slashdot.

If they did that, then the results of this survey would be determined solely by the the code-of-conduct on each language's homepage.

Re:Worst Software Site Survey Says?

[Anonymous Coward]

Worst Software Site: Stackoverflow

If you post one dumb question or unpopular opinion, you are essentially banned from the site for a year.

They should have a ranking system similar to Slashdot. If it's a bad question or statement, then let the rankings effectively hide it. If one wants to see low-ranked content, they can change their filter settings.

So, StackOverflow reflects reality? Where stupidity gets punished?

And you can't handle that?

You think maybe the people Boeing killed with their crap 737MAX would have preferred a bit of harsh reality be dumped on Boeing executives and engineers a few years ago?

Or do you like them being sheltered from reality, like you seem to want to be?

Re:Worst Software Site Survey Says?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like someone got banned for posting their manifesto.

Re:Worst Software Site Survey Says?

[Hognoxious]

The words "false" and "equivalence" spring to mind.

Re:Worst Software Site Survey Says?

[Tablizer]

So, StackOverflow reflects reality? Where stupidity gets punished? And you can't handle that?

Hey, every now and then I ask a dumb question, such as not noticing something obvious (obvious after the fact). Humans do that. If you are near perfect, slap a gold star on your forehead for being a rare specimen. Part of helping is filling in others' blind spots.

And again, if one doesn't want to see low-ranked messages, just set your filter level higher.

I know what I like ... and what I hate.

[Anonymous Coward]

I like languages that let me get paid, be efficient, have unlimited control over the resulting program.
I had languages that restrict my capabilities, have obnoxious fanbois, and are slow.

Like list:
* C
* C++
* Perl
* Go
* Ruby (though it is slow, sometimes)

Hate list:
* Java
* Javascript
* Rust - hate the fans.
* C# and any other "managed" language
* ObjectiveC - sometimes hate just comes from the platform
* Php
* Cobol

Don't care list:
* python
* Pascal
* Whatever apple is pushing today.
* Whatever google is pushing today.
* Whatever MSFT is pushing today.

I've coded for almost 3 decades, using about 40 different languages. If you are a noob, stick with noob-friendly languages, please. BTW, that does NOT include php.

Re:I know what I like ... and what I hate.

[Anonymous Coward]

I understand the dislike for PHP but it also has provided me a ton of functional applications and a lot of experience that served me well elsewhere. So it's hard to say I hate it.

Re:I know what I like ... and what I hate.

[Anonymous Coward]

You like go? Don't have to read anything past that

Re:I know what I like ... and what I hate.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mostly agree, except I'd swap out Obj-C and C++. The only bad thing about Objective-C is its association with Apple (andAlsoSome:people dontLikeThe:syntax butWho:cares), while C++ is only good if you define some sort of sane subset of C++ for your project.

Re:I know what I like ... and what I hate.

[Anonymous Coward]

Until you have to heavily rewrite your application so that it works with a newer patched version of PHP, or risk your web app having all sorts of crazy vulnerabilities...

Re:I know what I like ... and what I hate.

[Anonymous Coward]

PHP is useful, but I can see why some people don't like it. From the OP I gather that he probably came up using C, possibly COBOL and / or FORTRAN although he doesn't mention them. In these languages you had to know what was going on under the hood. You couldn't press a button and get an auto inflatable chair. You had to understand concepts like memory allocation, input validation, mathematical efficiency, garbage collection, etc. Stuff that's by and large handled for you in languages like Java, C#, etc. So imagine that you spend years learning stuff that's pretty complicated and took a lot of effort that's now being replaced so that any high school student can write code. Sure they get results, but they don't know why. I'd be irritated too. I'm more in the middle of the range. Been coding for 15 years, and even for that I find my skills being diminished by the continuing progress. So yeah, I understand the frustration.

Re:I know what I like ... and what I hate.

[Anonymous Coward]

What? php is definitly a noob language. They pick it up right after first learning html as their first "language".

Also C# has good side, (string handling), downside is dealing with MS shit.

Re:I know what I like ... and what I hate.

[pauljlucas]

You realize that Go is the language that "Google is pushing today," right? Go was developed by Rob Pike, Ken Thompson, et al, at Google.

Re:I know what I like ... and what I hate.

[whatUsay]

I don’t quite understand how did this comment get rated 5. An anonymous user rants about what languages they hate, without any explanation. Maybe start a conversation by diving a little deeper into reasons why a given language is not your tool of choice, then acknowledge that there are possibly cases where the given language would be a good choice. Or something along these lines.

Erlang

[Anonymous Coward]

I love Erlang so I guess I am just a masochist.

Re:Erlang

[TimMD909]

I love Erlang so I guess I am just a masochist.

Answer: Yes, you are a masochist. Seek treatment immediately.

Source: Me (I know Erlang)

Hate for Java?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand the hate for Java.

Java is fast, secure, and compact.

With only a few cores, a few GB of disk space, and a few GB of ram, "hello world" compiles and runs in just minutes!

And it gets faster every time it's run!

Find me a language more secure.

Find me a language more compact.

Find me a language that's faster.

C is full of security holes, and slow.

ASSembly is slow, full of holes, and slow.

The minimum specs are there for a reason. If you don't have at least a few cores, and a few GB of RAM, and say 100GB of disk space, go back to your speak and spell.

Re:Hate for Java?

[PCM2]

Find me a language more compact.

I take it you're not talking about source code.

Re:Hate for Java?

[bobbied]

I don't understand the hate for Java.

Java is fast, secure, and compact.

With only a few cores, a few GB of disk space, and a few GB of ram, "hello world" compiles and runs in just minutes!

And it gets faster every time it's run!

Find me a language more secure.

Find me a language more compact.

Find me a language that's faster.

C is full of security holes, and slow.

ASSembly is slow, full of holes, and slow.

The minimum specs are there for a reason. If you don't have at least a few cores, and a few GB of RAM, and say 100GB of disk space, go back to your speak and spell.

Shesh.. I don't know if this is a joke or not...

So wrong on every level.. Java is none of the things you claim and just about *any* compiled language will be faster than Java on the same hardware.

But.. Then there is the security thing.... C isn't full of security holes per say, nor is Assembly.. Neither language enforces the strict type checking that the Java compiler gives you I suppose, but that doesn't mean they are insecure. It just means the programmer needs to mind his P's and Q's and be careful to avoid getting off in the weeds... But you PAY dearly for all that "security" that Java gives you in performance and complexity...

So was this an attempt at humor that failed? Or just stupidity on parade?

Re:Hate for Java?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand the hate for Java.

Java is fast, secure, and compact.

With only a few cores, a few GB of disk space, and a few GB of ram, "hello world" compiles and runs in just minutes!

And it gets faster every time it's run!

Find me a language more secure.

Find me a language more compact.

Find me a language that's faster.

C is full of security holes, and slow.

ASSembly is slow, full of holes, and slow.

The minimum specs are there for a reason. If you don't have at least a few cores, and a few GB of RAM, and say 100GB of disk space, go back to your speak and spell.

Shesh.. I don't know if this is a joke or not...

So wrong on every level.. Java is none of the things you claim and just about *any* compiled language will be faster than Java on the same hardware.

But.. Then there is the security thing.... C isn't full of security holes per say, nor is Assembly.. Neither language enforces the strict type checking that the Java compiler gives you I suppose, but that doesn't mean they are insecure. It just means the programmer needs to mind his P's and Q's and be careful to avoid getting off in the weeds... But you PAY dearly for all that "security" that Java gives you in performance and complexity...

So was this an attempt at humor that failed? Or just stupidity on parade?

Check out "sarcasm". Once you understand what that is, you'll find that post pretty hillarious

Re:Hate for Java?

[TheDarkMaster]

The thing about C is that it assumes you know what you're doing. Total control, no training wheels.

Re:Hate for Java?

[bobbied]

My point is that it fails even to be sarcastic, because on one hand the author is right, then on the other hand they are wrong...

I would expect that a sarcastic post to be 100% sarcastic, not actually valid some times and at other times not.

Re:Hate for Java?

[bobbied]

Yup, exactly this...

The compiler doesn't really care if you want to multiply the letter "A" by "5" and then use the result as a pointer to a data structure. Of course, there have been improvements in the compilers over the years, where they will at least complain about type mismatches, and the ever valuable LINT program to help keep you out of the weeds. But in the end, you are free to do as you please, as fast as the machine will chew though the assembly code the compiler wrote for you (or as I've done in the past, the assembly you wrote for the compiler).

The issue most of these surveys don't take into account is which tool is suited for which job. My favorite language depends on the task at hand and the suitable tools in the my tool box. Writing a device driver? C or assembly.. Writing some GUI to run locally? C++/Java... Need to interface with some specific Java library? Then Java.... It all depends.

Re:Hate for Java?

[Anonymous Coward]

No. Just no. Java can be fast if you just include what you need and don't pull in the entire swing. But most people coding in it don't know the language well enough to know exactly what they need so they just pull in the whole swing. Which make it incredibly slow and bloated. Java has a lot of security issues. Go out the CVEs and filter by Java. Granted it protects you from some security issues, but really if you know the language you're working in and have a security mindset C and Assembly can both be very secure. It depends on the programmer.

Assembly is not slow. For years it was the preferred language for writing device drivers expressly because they needed to be efficient. You sound like a recent graduate. You should probably spend a few years getting some practical experience.

Re:Hate for Java?

[Anonymous Coward]

I inherited a java tool for data handling. On a single 1 Mb file it takes 30 seconds and 500+ Mb ram. Yes 500+ mb. On large files it takes everything the server can offer. It was written by experienced people who have been making java software for years.

I rewrote it in Go and it runs on the same small files in less than 1 second and 10 Mb ram. On large files it does even better.

For learning python I rewrote it again and added some more flexability. Also runs in less than 1 sec and 10 Mb ram.

Re:Hate for Java?

[Travelsonic]

You sound like a recent graduate.

You sound like someone who likes to blindly assume, no matter how silly you may look.
I am a recent college grad, and both recognize, and embrace the benefits of assembly AND C where it makes sense (merely that I wouldn't necessarily use assembly for some things, and would use it for others) - not all people are the same.

Re:Hate for Java?

[tommeke100]

This is ridiculous. I just wrote a java program handling gigs and no problems ajava.lang.OutOfMemoryError

Re:Hate for Java?

[DamnOregonian]

The compiler doesn't really care if you want to multiply the letter "A" by "5" and then use the result as a pointer to a data structure.

Of course the compiler does- unless you know of a magical flag to disable type checking.
It's the CPU that doesn't care, and the compiler that allows you to tell it to pretend "A" and "5" are of the same type.

Re:Hate for Java?

[DamnOregonian]

Java can be fast if you just include what you need and don't pull in the entire swing.

But after 20 years, I have yet to see it. Not even once.

Re:Hate for Java?

[DamnOregonian]

Crap. You tried to run tommeke100.web.curlPost on a machine with less than 64GB.

Re:Hate for Java?

[angel'o'sphere]

Your previous ranting about Python was already extremely ignorant, if not even dumb.

and the compiler that allows you to tell it to pretend "A" and "5" are of the same type.
You made typo. If you want to multiply A with 5, you write 'A' * 5. And most (old school) C compilers happily compile it. Hint 'A' is a char, which is promoted to int. 5 is in an int. multiplying to ints is fine.

Even writing a * in front of it and dereferencing it is fine .... perhaps you need some casts, though.

Perhaps you should actually learn some programming languages instead of bashing them.

Re:Hate for Java?

[angel'o'sphere]

No. Just no. Java can be fast if you just include what you need and don't pull in the entire swing.
A program does not get slow just because it uses a certain GUI library, your post is nonsense.

Re:Hate for Java?

[DamnOregonian]

Your previous ranting about Python was already extremely ignorant, if not even dumb.

You're the toolshed who tried to act like a language is independent of its implementation, and I'm the one who's ignorant? Spare me. Back to debate class with you.

And most (old school) C compilers happily compile it.

I can see you don't use C normally. I do.
All compilers will compile that, as a char and an int are compatible types.
Obviously however, those were stand-ins for dissimilar types.
So, in the case where he was referring to the ASCII representation of an integer, and another integer, he should forgive my criticism, and accept my new criticism: Why would you misstate those as dissimilar types?

Perhaps you should actually learn some programming languages instead of bashing them.

This is hilariously ridiculous.
I average about 60k LOC a month. Perhaps the armchair nerd should quit trying to talk down to the professionals.

Re: Hate for Java?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I average about 60k LOC a month"

Corporate Progressive nazi assholes sure do love pumping out tons and tons of inelegant shitcode.

Re:Hate for Java?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is hilariously ridiculous.
I average about 60k LOC a month. Perhaps the armchair nerd should quit trying to talk down to the professionals.

Hilariously ridiculous indeed. 60K LOC a month? That is one line of code every 10 seconds, for 8 hours a day, 22 days a month. On average! You are either straight lying, confuse programming with something else (like integrating other peoples code, and counting it as your own), or live in a world fantasy world of your ego.

Re:Hate for Java?

[angel'o'sphere]

If you get paid for LOCs, does your shop hire?

Re:Hate for Java?

[DamnOregonian]

I don't get paid for LOC.
My CEO is largely unaware of my LOC output.
He's just happy that our ~12,000 customers are happy.

Re:Hate for Java?

[bobbied]

The compiler doesn't really care if you want to multiply the letter "A" by "5" and then use the result as a pointer to a data structure.

Of course the compiler does- unless you know of a magical flag to disable type checking. It's the CPU that doesn't care, and the compiler that allows you to tell it to pretend "A" and "5" are of the same type.

The C compiler doesn't care (though some may warn you), that you are combining different types doing some operation. The ANSI-C compiler is a bit more rigorous in it's type checking, but still really only is going to warn you and keep compiling unless you tell it to stop on warnings. C isn't a strongly typed language, and it's this way for a reason, well two reasons. First, It's easier, faster, cheaper to write a compiler that doesn't care about such stuff and when C was getting started, hardware speed and memory sizes where a major consideration, so we left off the bells and whistles and let the programmer deal with keeping up with the jots and tittles like type checking. Second, all the data types generally took up the same amount of space, 8 bits or 16 bits and that's all the compiler really needed to care about. You got all sorts of flexibility, and when you are interacting directly with hardware, this is a huge advantage. Sometimes all that type checking is really just a PIA and having to worry with a cast is just making the source code harder to read.

Of course, now days, with processing power and memory space limitations largely a ting of the past, we've "moved on" to highly typed languages. Languages where the compiler is always harping at you about things. I get why it's important and the kinds of errors it prevents, but it's like having a really fast and powerful motorcycle which won't start w/o the training wheels attached to me. I personally don't like the added type checking, it keeps my code from being as efficient as I'd like, but OK, I'm willing to live within the constraints of the language. Just don't get me stared on the memory management in languages like Java.... I think we pay too high a performance price for that myself.

Re:Hate for Java?

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly, this compiles under GCC with only a warning about "incompatible pointer conversion":

#include <stdio.h>

int main()
{
        char c = 'A';
        int i = c * 5;

        struct thing {
                char ch;
                int j;
        };
        struct thing *thing_ptr;

        printf("The result is: %d\n", i);

        thing_ptr = i;
}

It was pushed in academia like JAVA was... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

It was pushed in academia thru the 90's & early-to-mid 2000's like JAVA was so thus the "new crop" of devs (rookies) will use it & hit Stack Overflow for help, thus it's "popularity" (it is ALWAYS this way, I've seen it since starting coding in 1990 & doing it as a pro 1994-2008).

* Languages will be "more popular" per programming help sites like Stack Overflow INITIALLY when the THEN 'current crop' of coders that NEED help (rookies) need it, creating an APPEARANCE of 'popularity'... much as you said of BASIC.

APK

P.S.=> What I personally tend to look @ is language strength (I do NOT like runtime interpreted ones but I have used BASIC, JAVA, & Python professionally - do they work? Sure. Do they work as well as, OR are as VERSATILE & POWERFUL as my favs (C++ & Object Pascal)?? Hell no - So, I tend to stick by what is PROVEN over decades & can do the MOST, best (especially for optimizations & many interpreted languages don't have strong variable typing either))... apk

Re: It was pushed in academia like JAVA was... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Good programmers understand that different languages have strengths and weaknesses, then pick the best tool for the job. You're unfortunately biased against Python, rather than choosing whether to use it based on its strengths and weaknesses. Python isn't the right tool for every job, but it does some things very well, like data analysis and visualization for scientific data sets. You, however, seem convinced that Object Pascal is the best language ever, and that it's the best tool for any job. That's how you end up with a bloated, inefficient 14,000+ line string sorting program that offers very limited functionality and isn't very useful. You pat yourself on the back for not using a lot of other people's code in libraries, but that's inefficient and leads to you using relatively untested code that is more likely to contain bugs. There are better alternatives, such as Steven Black's software, which is written in Python. However, you dismiss it simply because it's written in Python, without regard for whether it actually works well and that Python might be a good choice for such a program. Your bias toward Object Pascal is not helpful. We need people who understand the strengths and weaknesses of individual languages, then choose the right tool for the job. We don't need Object Pascal zealots.

ReXX is the Most-loved language.

[Wargames]

After 35 years my love for this language (and its KeXX and ooReXX variants) has only grown deeper and more profound. Python is a funny language with white space issues.
 

Story/News missing the link?

[Anonymous Coward]

The story is missing the link. Is this it?

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019

What happened to Perl?

[damn_registrars]

I don't see Perl anywhere on the list. Not popular, not hated, not paid, not used. I can't be the only person still regularly using it.

Re:What happened to Perl?

[hugetoon]

Count the number of times Perl is mentioned in the comments here, it will give You a hint on what it has become: irrelevant.
I am probably as sad as You are about this fact of life, let's mourn our beloved programming language together, fellow Perlist.

Re:What happened to Perl?

[TimMD909]

I don't see Perl anywhere on the list. Not popular, not hated, not paid, not used. I can't be the only person still regularly using it.

Perl is presumably in the list, however the list is too obfuscated to comprehend and check.

Re:What happened to Perl?

[kackle]

I wondered the same about Perl: An easy check is a job search. It doesn't look good.

Re:What happened to Perl?

[prunus.avium]

Nobody wants to admit they still use it. It's sliding into COBOL territory...

Re:What happened to Perl?

[SmSlDoo]

I was also surprised to not see it on the list, seeing as there were so many niche languages listed.

It gets a lot of flack for being "old" or "irrelevant". I use a modern framework and have found it is faster, more stable and works better than many of the new fad languages.

Re:What happened to Perl?

[whoever57]

I don't see Perl anywhere on the list. Not popular, not hated, not paid, not used. I can't be the only person still regularly using it.

The Perl programmers are too busy constructing that perfect recursive regex (with look-ahead and look-behind) to be able to take part in a survey.

Re:What happened to Perl?

[damn_registrars]

I wondered the same about Perl: An easy check is a job search. It doesn't look good.

I generally advise nobody ever apply to a job that lists a specific programming language as an absolute requirement, it is usually just a pathway to obsolescence. Find a posting instead that describes the types of problems they are looking to solve and then present to them why you are the best person to help solve them. The language choice is not critical, and never should be.

Just because it isn't listed as a job requirement doesn't mean it's not used, either. This shitty website still runs primarily on Perl.

Re:What happened to Perl?

[Ecuador]

That's a weird thing to say, I'm in the UK and the Perl job market is very competitive. Decent perl devs get snapped up immediately. My company had to offer about 20% more than we'd offer to a swift/obj-c dev of similar experience to lure our latest hire...
But I am pretty sure no Perl dev would be filling out a stack overflow questionnaire.

Re:What happened to Perl?

[DamnOregonian]

It's definitely irrelevant in the scope of software engineering.
In the world of internet infrastructure, it's a requirement.
Some guy, somewhere, with perl has to make sure you can run your python scripts. That's an immutable fact.

Re:What happened to Perl?

[Anonymous Coward]

> I generally advise nobody ever apply to a job that lists a specific programming language as an absolute requirement, it is usually just a pathway to obsolescence.

Well, then, you're telling them to only ever get jobs where they are the only staff developer in some cost-center, which means they'll be treated like shit.

Generally languages are listed because on larger projects, every brogrammer who walks in the door isn't given an option to rewrite our whole software stack in some web language du jour, badly.

Do some real work and help us move forward in our strategy or fuck off.

Re:What happened to Perl?

[angel'o'sphere]

Nope.
All big shops I worked for, use Shell (bash or ksh) over Perl, I did actually only once meet a company that had a small set of Perl scripts and they needed a decade to replace them with Phython.

I'm not a ware that my mac or any linux box I used recently has any init scripts or other infrastructure scripts or anything network related that is based on Perl.

Re:What happened to Perl?

[angel'o'sphere]

Good luck then ...

How would you apply to a job that "needs Perl" because all the code base is in Perl? I mean: if you can not write Perl (yet) obviously you could apply anyway. The requirement is for the _job_ not for you as a _person_

Re:What happened to Perl?

[DamnOregonian]

All big shops I worked for, use Shell (bash or ksh) over Perl,

You're so full of shit it's leaking onto the burgers you're flipping.

I did actually only once meet a company that had a small set of Perl scripts and they needed a decade to replace them with Phython.

You're not fooling anyone dude. It's quite obvious to everyone here that you're trying to defend something you are enamored with, even if you don't understand it, against any and all criticism at the cost of your credibility. The internet is held together with perl. I have worked at Fortune 500s, I have worked at startups, and I have never been in a "shop" that didn't use Perl. For good reason. It outperforms nearly every other tool in existence for the processing of large textual data sets (mostly on account of its first-class regex language constructs)

I'm not a ware that my mac or any linux box I used recently has any init scripts or other infrastructure scripts or anything network related that is based on Perl.

This is almost too stupid to respond to, but I'll do it anyways for everyone's benefit. Init scripts? Of course they're not written in perl. Talk about wrong tool for the job. You see a lot of init scripts written in Python, Commander Linux Guru?
Infrastructure scripts? Swing and a miss. You can grep for \#/usr/bin/perl in /bin;/sbin;/usr/bin;/usr/sbin as well as I can.

Seriously, quit arguing with your betters. Go back to playing on your Mac and thinking you know some shit without botherig the big kids.

Re: What happened to Perl?

[Anonymous Coward]

I do really miss Perl , it was my first programming language so I hold it close to my heart. The problem is that not many people know it, Iâ(TM)m always collaborating with others and the one language we all know tends to be Python or Java. Itâ(TM)s kind of funny, the thing I love most about Perl the thing I hate most about Python. The fact that you can do so much stuff with just some quirky symbols. Iâ(TM)ve ported some of my old Perl code to python, and it becomes double or triple the number of lines of code!

Re: What happened to Perl?

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking of Perl, can someone on this damn site fix the apostrophe encoding issue so it doesnâ(TM)t turn it into gibberish. This is 2019, every website should support angled quotes!

Re: What happened to Perl?

[Anonymous Coward]

"quit arguing with your betters"

Corporate Progressive nazi assholes sure do have an inflated sense of self-importance.

Re: What happened to Perl?

[sin_vraal]

Filter your comments, and all the sudden Perl is mentioned A LOT here

Re: What happened to Perl?

[Anonymous Coward]

You can turn it off in your phone in settings and then everyone everywhere will be able to read your posts without problems.

Re:What happened to Perl?

[angel'o'sphere]

For good reason. It outperforms nearly every other tool in existence for the processing of large textual data sets (mostly on account of its first-class regex language constructs)
And where e.g. in the banking industry would such a dartaset exist?

I don't know if I ever worked for a fortune 500, as i don't know who actually is considered one :P
Your argument that you work(ed) for some and use Perl does not change the fact hat no one in my environment uses it.

No idea why you want to insult me/other people about that.

Good luck with your career ... you might need it with your fucked upped attitude.

You can grep for \#/usr/bin/perl in /bin;/sbin;/usr/bin;/usr/sbin as well as I can.
And why would I do that?

"find / -name "*.pl" | wc" is enough ... idiot. Oh, you have so much Perl affinity that you know that moronic programmers hide perl scripts in mere text files ... hi hi hi, as I said good luck.

Folks like Python because

[rsilvergun]

You have to properly indent, making the code more readable and better organized. If you get stuck maintaining somebody else's code it's a Godsend. But for me it drives me nuts since I hate worrying about space counting.

Re:Folks like Python because

[Anonymous Coward]

Python is impossible to refactor. If formatting is an issue, use an auto formatter.

Re:Folks like Python because

[Anonymous Coward]

I wrote a python reformatter in python in about 15 minutes, its not hard.

Re:Folks like Python because

[Anonymous Coward]

Writing a *good* one is.

Re:Folks like Python because

[Anonymous Coward]

I use a vim plugin that shows indent levels in different shades of gray, no need to do space counting.

Having said that, I can't stand python because programmers are allowed to create variables on a whim and without defining their type. Makes trying to rewrite it into a real language much more difficult. I just did that for a science program (lots of math) and it went from over 3 minutes in python to less than 10 seconds in C. Screw python.

The lack of {} makes it difficult to quickly jump to the start and end of blocks. The list goes on, piss on python.

I can and do properly indent without having some language make me do it poorly.

--XYZZY--

My Claw Hammer

[Carcass666]

I love my claw hammer. It works for anything I want to build, and I never need other tools. People who use ball-peen hammers or malletts obviously don't know how to use hammers properly. Anybody who uses screwdrivers or wrenches is obviously an idiot, who doesn't really understand how to build things.

Re:My Claw Hammer

[Anonymous Coward]

I know your comment is a pure analogy but, it definitely summarizes any argument about the "best" language. Thanks, for pointing it out... I hope some will read it.

Re:My Claw Hammer

[Waccoon]

What you're describing is a single function. A language would be an entire garage.

Re:My Claw Hammer

[Thelasko]

I love my claw hammer. It works for anything I want to build, and I never need other tools. People who use ball-peen hammers or malletts obviously don't know how to use hammers properly. Anybody who uses screwdrivers or wrenches is obviously an idiot, who doesn't really understand how to build things.

Clarkson, is that you?

SQL #3??????

[MikeDataLink]

"Do I think that more people will start using Python than SQL? That would be tough, SQL plays a role in huge swathes of the economy. I'd be surprised if next year Python overtakes SQL, just because SQL is so dominant."

SQL is #3 on the list. Since when did SQL become a programming language SQL us a a QUERY language.

Re:SQL #3??????

[N1AK]

Trust me that there are plenty of people who use SQL like a programming language. We have dozens of 3,000+ line stored procedures and job steps (queries) that we have to keep ticking over; just because SQL "shouldn't" be a programming language doesn't mean everyone got that memo!

Re:SQL #3??????

[geek]

It has syntax, stores variables, instructs a system to do things. Not seeing an issue. Especially when the "L" in SQL is for LANGUAGE.

Re:SQL #3??????

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be referring to PL/SQL, not SQL. Regardless, it's still apples and oranges. PL/SQL isn't a general purpose programming language like the others in the list. It doesn't belong there any more than HTML does.

Re:SQL #3??????

[Anonymous Coward]

SQL with some extensions is Turing Complete. However, I prefer to write my Avionics programs in C++ Templates, which is also Turing Complete.

Re:SQL #3??????

[Anonymous Coward]

It has syntax, stores variables, instructs a system to do things. Not seeing an issue. Especially when the "L" in SQL is for LANGUAGE.

With that username and low UID you would think you had better knowledge than that. It is not the "L" we are talking about, it is the "P" or rather the lack of it that is in the center of the discussion. If you were right it would be called "SPL" (Structured Programming Language), but it isn't, is it? No one questions that SQL is a language, but as the GP pointed out it is a QUERY language.

If your reasoning lies behind the survey, I bet english would beat all the languages on that list.

Re: SQL #3??????

[Anonymous Coward]

3000 line stored procedure. That's a boner killer!

Re:SQL #3??????

[angel'o'sphere]

in the 1980s SQL was a QUERY language.
Fixed that for you.

Every SQL dialect has a full fledged programming language built in ... behind what moon did you live the last 40 years?

And your base statement way wrong anyway. Old school SQL is two languages: data manipulation language and data definition language ... go figure, nitpicking with no clue is worth than nitpicking ...

AC is hilarious

[Anonymous Coward]

> I suppose, but I fucking am incompetent in Python and have no idea how to write good code.

FTFY

Re:AC is hilarious

[Anonymous Coward]

Two things syntactic white space and the way it handles typing. Not to mention all the silliness related to how loops are handled and the completely unhelpful error messages.

Python is a bad language, not as bad as Basic, but pretty bad.

Re:AC is hilarious

[fluffernutter]

If anything knock Python because of the GIL issue. Maybe on large projects, dynamic typing is problematic if you are lazy with variable names and documentation. Don't knock it because you can't accept 'something different'. The indentation helps in a lot of cases; and it quickly starts to feel redundant doing { } everywhere. Neither is really better than the other.

Re:AC is hilarious

[Anonymous Coward]

Dynamic typing is a problem on any project where changing the type of a passed parameter occurs in more than exactly two call sites.

And I'm suspicious about the number two; it could very well be just one.

Re: AC is hilarious

[Anonymous Coward]

The { } everywhere aren't redundant. They make it very clear where code blocks start and end and allow for the programmer to decide what sort of indentation makes things most readable. They also make it easier to run a program to clean up the indentations.

Plus you can always make the IDE add them if it's that much of a problem.

Also as an individual with impaired vision function syntactic whitespace is a nontrivial problem that only exists because the lazy and incompetent don't understand why they're used in the first place.

Re: AC is hilarious

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that without the {} no version control system can handle it well.
Rebases, cherry-picks, merges all suddenly have a significant risk of breaking your code without you noticing.
Of course people who subscribe to "who needs branches", "who needs collaboration" or even "who needs version control" won't care, but to anyone doing serious development and for one reason or another do not have exhaustive tests will realize that this is a pretty serious issue fairly quickly.
Redundancy is not the same as waste.

Re: AC is hilarious

[Anonymous Coward]

go fmt and go vet can be integrated in IDE. Takes care of most code formatting. go fix upgrades to new language versions automatically. Fucking delightful that someone went the other way than ruby, while great syntax is a horrible mess otherwise.

Raspberry Pi caused the rise of Python

[MikeDataLink]

I feel like the beloved Raspberry Pi has caused the rise of Python. All these school kids are learning Python in school and they just think its the best language for everything after that.

It's why Steve Jobs gave Apple's to schools. ;-) It works.

Re:Raspberry Pi caused the rise of Python

[cascadingstylesheet]

I feel like the beloved Raspberry Pi has caused the rise of Python. All these school kids are learning Python in school and they just think its the best language for everything after that.

It's why Steve Jobs gave Apple's to schools. ;-) It works.

Python has been around since 1991. It has stood the test of time. Well, some time, anyway ..

Re:Raspberry Pi caused the rise of Python

[Anonymous Coward]

While python has been around since 91 it was largely unheard of until the push to teach kids to code and educational SBCs like the PI.

It is equivalent to basic in the 80s and should remain that way. It is an educational tool, not a production programming language. Sure it might be fine for banging out a quick script to cron. You're fucking joking yourself if you write any significant application in it. Your application could be that much leaner and quicker written in a real programming language.

I cant wait till some kid tries to rewrite linux in python and finds out it takes 64GB of ram just to load the kernel.

Re:Raspberry Pi caused the rise of Python

[DamnOregonian]

It has been around, in obscurity, since 1991. That's true.
It didn't blow up and get splattered everywhere, reducing the performance of our machines faster than the fixes for Intel's architectural mistakes, until recent history.

Re:Raspberry Pi caused the rise of Python

[angel'o'sphere]

You obviously never have been at a university that stayed at the edge of "der Puls der Zeit".

In my university everyone and his dog jumped on Python the day it "went viral" in the usenet/news.

Re:Raspberry Pi caused the rise of Python

[DamnOregonian]

Christ, you will literally make any shit you can think of up.
Python never "went viral".
Python wasn't even a standardized install on any of the common enterprise Linuxes until the 2000s.
You're like a nerd Trump.

Re:Raspberry Pi caused the rise of Python

[angel'o'sphere]

Python never "went viral".

Yes it did. You are probably to young to know what "usenet/news" is.

Python wasn't even a standardized install on any of the common enterprise Linuxes until the 2000s.

Python went viral around 1991 ... my first linux distro was slackware 0.8x ... mid 1993.

No idea if it had Python ... I programmed exclusively in C++ that time ...

What actually is your point? That you have no clue about anything? We noticed, no need to further embarrass yourself.

Well, my favorite language.

[cellocgw]

MFL is any language that lets me talk to it and have it produce code, or hardware, just the way I want it.

Enterprise NCC1701-D's Food Replicator comes to mind. I bet you could tell it to generate the software you need to deliver tomorrow.

Re:Well, my favorite language.

[drinkypoo]

Enterprise NCC1701-D's Food Replicator comes to mind. I bet you could tell it to generate the software you need to deliver tomorrow.

The food replicators could only make stuff that was programmed in.

career advice

[Anonymous Coward]

Learn 4 of the top 15 languages

- JavaScript/html/css
- SQL
- C#/.net
- typescript

and learn the following
- angular
- Some basics of how C works
- Some sort of scripting language for back end processing - python

Led teams of many developers and not many of recent graduation have a grasp of relational databases and how they can make your work harder or make your work easier (even Oracle).

A GitHub repo, a few random blog posts and some stack overflow questions do not mean that the language is widely used.

Re:career advice

[Hognoxious]

not many of recent graduation have a grasp of relational databases

They use joins so they aren't webscale.

No, the databases. Don't be silly.

Re: career advice

[Anonymous Coward]

Professional programmer with 25 years experience here. I'm very much looking forward to my pensionable years when none of current generation can do anything low level and I get paid thousands per day to keep "legacy" systems running. :)

Re: career advice

[Anonymous Coward]

Long live C/C++

Re:career advice

[Anonymous Coward]

when you're dropped-into a project, and all the source is in LabVIEW, and all the hardware & I/O is NI-related, and it leads to other projects that they've done in LabVIEW, and you're the only one in the company that knows LabVIEW, you learn to looove LabVIEW and make a career of LabVIEW, and get comfortably-paid and secure doing what you're doing. go ahead and play with other stuff, but just remember - in any company you're in - what pays the bills.

Your Opinions Are Largely Irrelevant

[Anonymous Coward]

Amusing to watch the purists getting so jelly of Python. 25 years ago I was a C/C++ wonderboy. Before that I was doing assembler in high school. Today I do a lot of Python. In a few years it will be something else. The language doesn't matter that much. Programming is just making rules that get executed. Most of the semantics gets automated by IDEs anyway. Finishing on time and writing stuff that others can understand is more important than language choice. Not really on board with the notion of scripting languages leading to the apocalypse.

Paid story?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, what the fuck. Stackoverflow is no indication of language "popularity" any more then highschool fads.

Maybe what they meant to say was Python isn't the most popular, it's the most SEARCHED for. Meaning more people have no fucking idea how to write the damn thing and get stuck with other peoples shit.

Then you have the usual pie in the sky language:

> Despite our survey’s broad reach and capacity for informing valuable conclusions, we acknowledge that our results don’t represent everyone in the developer community evenly.

"Informing valuable conclusions" ?? I don't know drugs they are handing out at tech companies but holy shit.

Compiled vs. Interpreted

[RogueWarrior65]

IMHO, this survey should separate languages that are compiled versus those that are interpreted.

Re:Compiled vs. Interpreted

[angel'o'sphere]

That is a bit tricky issue as many languages are:
a) compiled to a bytecode - the bytecode is interpreted
b) jit compiled from bytecode to machine code
c) have a subset that compiles to machine code (CPython e.g. or the SmallTalk Cog engine): http://www.mirandabanda.org/co...

Even old school basic is "tokenized" and then interpreted.

C++ has simply become utterly stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

They sailed right over that shark.

"how programmers work"

[Anonymous Coward]

SO went through it's own eternal september a long time ago and it now so dumbed down it is pointless for professional programmers,
  it's probably great if want somebody to do your homework. I don't need some noob mod high on homework answers giving me a lecture because he thinks getter and setters are cool, thinks Hoare logic is off topic or TDD is for losers.

Now If I need an example of the usage of something, I search Github for examples, look at the test cases and/or implementation.

DUMB ASS STFU & WHY w/ proof... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Not BIASED - it's a good "glue/automator" language but it's interpreted slower (fact) & written in C++ (which, if Rossum & crew didn't use std string, they CAN have buffer overflows via it - my FAV, Object Pascal HAS NO SUCH FLAW & is a TRUE 'stand-alone .exe' creator as well - faster/better & I can TUNE by hand, variable size via typing, for BETTER PERFORMANCE (e.g. ShortString vs. String, so it fits in L1-L4 CPU caches (local STACK vs. SLOWER global heap)).

* I knew what to choose for hosts file manipulation due to the above for:

APK Hosts File Engine 2.0++ 64-bit for Linux h t t p : / / a p k . i t - m a t e . c o . u k / A P K H o s t s F i l e E n g i n e F o r L i n u x . z i p

APK

P.S.=> Don't EVER try "talk down to me" until YOU'VE DONE BETTER & I ask you show you HAVE & U RAN https://yro.slashdot.org/comme... & https://yro.slashdot.org/comme... + https://yro.slashdot.org/comme...

You just proved you're a SOYBoy (lol) then

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject SOYBoy (rotflmao) in your UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous "courageous" trolling you "not man" - LMAO!

(You know - I understand your SOYMilk & Bisphenol A "notman" SOYBoy formulas have addled your brains but that takes the cake for "illogic logic" from "your kind", lol!)

* The other poster's not I but they are making you get all "triggered" when you see your addled thinking fools nobody but your sick in the head chemically NEUTERED (lol) selves, lmao!

APK

P.S.=> Classic - one for my bookmarks... apk

Additionally on Black's INFERIOR tty term junk

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject: It doesn't check for valid gTLD/TLD (can lead to bloat & false positives in hosts) nor does it do hardcoded favorites which can beat DNS security issues & tracking (for starters).

It's also PRIMITIVE INFERIOR SHIT done in SIMPLE (believe me, way easier to build than GUI is, no eventdriven action, even if argc/argv are done in it) & NOT GUI - or, did YOU surf here in Lynx? No, you did not. Do you use tty terms for your desktop shell OR do you use KDE/GNome/xcfe/LXDE etc. for your desktop too?? You do not.

C++ has LOST numerous times to Object Pascal in speed too (by HUGE margins, 2-5x, especially in MATH & STRINGWORK (hosts is this largely)).

APK

P.S.=> I wrote the EQUIVALENT of 10-14 *NIX commands myself in my work - NOT PYTHON DOING THE WORK FOR ME & it rocks (dozens of /.ers alone use it & 100's of 1,000s worldwide - you've never done that - you RUN when I ask things like THAT of you https://developers.slashdot.or... ... apk

SQL and R?

[AxisOfPleasure]

JS and HTML are at the top of a list of programming languages? Why don't we list Batch, shell script, powershell, and R as programm...oh wait! R and SQL as fully fledged programming languages? Hmmm, I was a DBA for 25 years, so I lived and breathed SQL and procedural SQL in all it's whacky disguises, but when it came to automation, coding interfaces or anything outside the DB there's wasn't much SQL was going to for you when all you had was a stack of libraries written in C or Java. Even as a non-developer, working in Infrastructure you still need at least one "proper language" under your belt if you want to stand a hope in hell of keeping up with the dev teams or getting decent hooks into the array of software you have to work with. Yes, I'll admit I still like mashochistic coding in C++ and Java, nothing beats using a "chainsaw to slice bread"! ha ha!

No it was windows

[goombah99]

Poor windows folks lacked a decent Perl. So they used Python.

Re:No it was windows

[DamnOregonian]

Which blows my mind, because they had VB, which is basically Python with more understandable syntax and better performance.

Gamification

[Martin S.]

The root problem is that SO gamification system rewards the lowest common denominator not the highest or even just professional level

Re: Gamification

[Anonymous Coward]

Jeez. This. Iâ(TM)ve seen so many answers followed up by a author comment pointing to how to choose / select their answer as the âoecorrect oneâ.

python

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who uses python is a shitforbrains and should be killed

IMPERSONATING me now? WEAK, lol, like you

[Anonymous Coward]

IMPERSONATING me now? WEAK, lol, like you & again YOU RAN
"Forrest CHUMP" vs. https://developers.slashdot.or... & https://developers.slashdot.or...

* FUCKING stalking WEIRDO loser... lol!

APK

P.S.=> You're a fucking COWARDLY little PIECE OF SHIT chattering TWAT - & until YOU show you've done BETTER WORK than I, earlier + more of it too? FUCK OFF wannabe... apk

Re:IMPERSONATING me now? WEAK, lol, like you

[Anonymous Coward]

APK
Go the fuck AWAY!

(Everybody join in!)

APK
Go the fuck AWAY!

APK
Go the fuck AWAY!

APK
Go the fuck AWAY!

APK
GO THE FUCK AWAY!

Rubbish

[Martin S.]

Hoare logic is apparent off-topic, so is advocating declarative BDD over imperative BDD, quoting JUnit's documentation on Assume semantic 'proves nothing', getter and setter are not evil and 'tell don't ask' is claptrap and the java language specification is not an authoritative on parameter semantics, or even just fixing poor English grammar.

Those are all examples where I've reference recognised experts in the respective fields and had unwarranted locks and restrictions at the hands of moderation who've own profiles show they game their reputation by camping trivial questions.

fuck stackoverflow

[Anonymous Coward]

Buncha wannabe shitstains

Fuck you you stalking little cunt... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

See my subject: I'd kick YOUR FUCKING ASS for stalking & harassing me you unidentifiable little cowardly cunt - tell me your REAL name, address, & phone # so I can verify it's REALLY you & we can settle this once & for all, fucker...

APK

P.S.=> Everyone SEES you constantly stalking & harassing me bitch, so WHO ARE YOU FOOLING but yourself - & IF I ever get to you? You'll WISH you were dead cocksucker... I shit you not! apk

Re:Fuck you you stalking little cunt... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

APK's made it abundantly clear how you react impersonating him as he spanks you as he did here showing it here https://hardware.slashdot.org/...

How exciting!

[cyber-vandal]

A Slashdot snobfest!

to some of the commenters ...

[cascadingstylesheet]

... Python was released in 1991. I don't think we can call it a fad anymore.

Re:to some of the commenters ...

[DamnOregonian]

Your logic is terminally broken.

A bandwagon can be jumped on long after it leaves its origin. That doesn't make it not a bandwagon.
See: Linux.

You = The "SiDeWaLk-ShRiNk of /.", lol

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject (lol) & the viral hit by "The SoyBoyz": ''If you're going to TransManCisco? Be sure you wear your jimmyhats + bring Preparation H there. If you're going, to TransManCisco... You're going to meet a lot of transtesticle monsters and soyboy not men there. All across the nation: Surgical sawblade vibrations! Surgeons in motion, Sawing peckers + ball off tossing them into the SF Bay Ocean...'

* They're playing YOUR SONG again - hahahaha classic!

(Only way "your kind" would EVER get any notice &/or notoriety...)

APK

P.S.=> Quit projecting your own mental issues onto me... apk

Re:You = The "SiDeWaLk-ShRiNk of /.", lol

[Anonymous Coward]

Fake APK it's hilarious seeing Apk turn you into 'Forrest CHUMP' as you had to RUN when he asked you this https://yro.slashdot.org/comme...

Warning: autoplay video

[themusicgod1]

fucking autoplay.

Use the right tool

[pdxtabs]

Python is a great replacement for bash with much better library and testing support. How many horrible bash scripts have you seen? I promise that with Python they can be far better. However, I'm not actually a huge fan of dynamic languages, because there are a whole class of bugs that the compiler can't catch. So, I love Python, but I don't use it for anything too large.

DIE JUDEN, die

[Anonymous Coward]

Khazar Talmudic Jews believe this of all they call goyim/gentiles (any non-jew): Jews = biggest racists of all for which they "jew guilt" you for no less! They're hypocrites known as thieves all thru history or were Argentines in the 1940 under Peron, Spanish inquistion, France (1306), Egypt (despoiled/robbed by jews), Arabs (pre & post 1948), England (1330 Edward longshanks), Romans under titus, Russia pogroms and Germany who got rid of them from their nations nazi german's too? No. Driven into DESERTS ages ago! Don't wonder why after all those exilings above.

Should anyone doubt any of this see Jacob Javits' crony Rosenthal spill the beans on it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4zMVZ8HnFI/ where he called all Christianity fools for helping Israel and the biggest scam of all time per their beliefs below from their Talmud.

This is the province of the synagogue of Satan (Pharisees whom Jesus Christ himself kicked to the curb out of the temple & they killed him for it. Jeremiah did the same to them also + the Essenes could not stand them either breaking away from the pharisee corruption):

Mark Zuckerberg stole the Winklevoss twins' code for Fakebook (figures as he is a thieving low jew too).

Maria Abramovic satanist spirit cooker pal of Hillary Clinton the Voodoo queen is a jew https://www.google.com/search?...

Like Hillary Clinton's mentor Saul Alinsky author of rules for radicals book dedicated to Lucifer

"Most Jews do not like to admit it, but our god is Lucifer Â- so I wasnÂ't lying Â- and we are his chosen people. Lucifer is very much aliveÂ" Harold Rosenthal http://www.thetruthseeker.co.u...

Jewish rabbi openly admits to satan worship use white children's blood they kill for passover bread, infiltrating and subverting the catholic church, creating the Jesuit order https://www.youtube.com/watch?... and https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Barbara Spectre, a jew, tells everyone it's jews orchestrating the muslim migrant problem in Europe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFE0qAiofMQ/ . No migrant raping of women in Poland. Tons in Sweden. Do the math. Use common-sense. This is to get muslims and other goyim/gentiles to wipe one another out as incompatible cultures that will clash and always have.

Rabbi A. Finkelstein ADMITS their greatest enemies are ARABS and WHITES (blacks too) whom they wish to kill one another in a 'theater of war' which they find AMUSING https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Finkelstein also admits JEWS DID 9/11 (perpetrated by the Mossad & Bebe Netanyahu of ISRAEL) https://www.youtube.com/watch?... profiting by it (and that 3,000 jews employed there did not show up for work that day knowing about it beforehand).

Finkelstein also admits JEWS are going to destroy the U.S. Dollar and dumping it for other world currencies and gold to destroy the United States.

George Soros who funds groups to create division in the USA?? A jew. One who sold his own jew people into death for the nazis.

Zucker now FIRED @ CNN is another frying publicly for lying about "russians" and John Bonifield a producer @ CNN said it is bs. Van Jones did also.

Bernie Madoff (who made off with everyone's money, especially construction union pensions) shows the thieving nature of the JUDEN!

Michael Milken (another JEW SCAMMER junk bondsman THIEF)

Ivan Boesky

C#/.net? TypeScript?? Way to go for lock-in!

[Anonymous Coward]

That was some bad choice there!

Have you learned nothing from the JScript Embrace-Extend-Extinguish fiasco?

I bet you're an MCSE...

The entire "web" stack is already dying since the introduction of WebAssembly.
Why use a shitty OS in that shitty VM called browser, when you can just compile real programs to it along real platforms, and not bother with the entire HTML5 cancer.

Re: C#/.net? TypeScript?? Way to go for lock-in!

[Anonymous Coward]

You are getting ahead of yourself.
That future has not arrived yet.
Maybe eventually.

And you don't know what PC means??

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not running Linux.
You're, at best, running Ubuntu, exclusively use GUI tools, and never left the Windows/macOS app user mindset. Because you are so insanely clueless, that you don't even know that PC means Personal Computer, and drank the iKoolAid that told you Macs are "not" PCs and only Windows PCs are.

Then you're not a programmer.

[Anonymous Coward]

You probably love C++, JS, VBScript and other ugly-ass retarded turds like that.

Haskell. ... Come at me, motherfucker!

[Anonymous Coward]

And it's faster than *your* C code too. So eat your heart out.

C programmers are notorious for refusing to learn anything beyond the bounds of their tiny, ancient, limited primitive world,
and using that ignorance of anything but C and C-likes, to claim C is the greatest thing ever.

Go implement another buggy memory manager and leaky string handling library, you moron.

Re:Haskell. ... Come at me, motherfucker!

[Anonymous Coward]

Comin' at ya

here's my beef about Python

[Anonymous Coward]

Lots love to focus on the lack of braces and statement terminators, and I do find the lack of those mildly annoying, but to me the real issue is the ecosystem, specifically the fact that 10ish years ago, Python 3 came out and there are loads of projects still stuck in 2.x land because it would be a trial by fire to upgrade.

And now they've repeated a min-version of that by introducing new keywords in 3.7 that were used by the most popular package for achieving the functionality previously (zappa and async) and so I see projects getting stuck in 3.6 because it will be such a hassle to rejigger all that old code.

Re:here's my beef about Python

[Anonymous Coward]

Python 3 came out and there are loads of projects still stuck in 2.x land because it would be a trial by fire to upgrade.

Why didn't they just bundle the Python 2 interpreter into Python 3 and let a single installation run both versions?

Just put a "version" string at the top of your Py2 files and it would switch modes. Yes, a bit bigger/slower but would save SO much pain!

Re: here's my beef about Python

[Anonymous Coward]

It will be particularly fun on our systems, where for some idiotic reason both Python 2 and Pyhton 3 binaries ONLY exist under the "python" name without version suffix and the only way to choose between them is to set the PATH. So even if they are completely separate projects they all will have to switch to Pyhton 3 at once...

editors

[someoneOtherThanMe]

Most popular development environments: vim 5th (25.4%), emacs 15th (4.5%). So that's settled.