"You're right, although not in the way you want to be. Productivity growth in America has vastly outpaced wage growth since the '70s. This applies across unionized and non-unionized industry alike. It doesn't see a rocket scientist to see that the extra money has wound up in the hands of either shareholders or management (depending on how honest management is). Irrespective of the wage question, the productivity growth is what has kept our economy so healthy over most of the last 30 years."
-I wasn't debating that. What I specifically said was that the work completed by unionized workers does not match the subsequent increase in their pay. Seems reasonable that people should get paid for what they do, no? Nothing more, nothing less.
"Unions are more necessary than ever if we want all Americans to share in the prosperity that their hard work has created through productivity growth. Just because we're not fighting against a 72-hour workweek anymore doesn't mean the basic reason for the existence of unions, to create equal bargaining power for workers, is any less desirable."
-As another poster pointed out, this has been anything but true with the auto industry. Let me give you an example of how this spills over: "prevailing wage". In my city economic redevelopment has been significantly curtailed because workers must be paid "prevailing" wage versus REASONABLE wage. A mill owner who wants grant money to maintain his building to city code standards would have to pay his pillow-stuffers over $12 an hour (he pays them around $8 right now). With stiff competition from China, he would simply go out of business if he had to pay such prices. Market forces, my dear Watson.
"It's true that some *salaried* government workers work only 35 or 37.5 hours. Their salaries reflect that; they are paid for 35 or 37.5 hours, not 40."
-Shoulda checked up on this one buster. You're 100% wrong. They work 37, and get paid for 40. Paid for work they haven't done (and no they dont bring it home at night).
"It's dirty, repetitive, unrewarding, dangerous (people like to rob tollbooths) and potentially injurious (to hearing, especially) work. Most toll collectors don't hand out tickets (there are machines for that) but count money. Would you consider it progress if we paid them minimum wage, they couldn't afford decent housing anymore, and turnover in these high-accountability positions (lots of cash handled) were suddenly 200%?"
-Fact is, a LOT of jobs are dirty, repetitive, unrewarding and dangerous. And they don't get paid high wages and cushy benefits. Lets face it: this is a completely unskilled job. Perhaps if toll workers were paid less, and tolls therefore decreased, then inter/intra state commerce would become cheaper (think of a company that ships hundreds of loads a day).
"If you see a worker standing, it's probably because he's acting as a safety spotter for someone else you can't see. When you're dealing with heavy machinery and dangerous chemicals all day, it's worth a little extra expense to have a second pair of eyes watching for mistakes. Or would you prefer a return to the good old days of entombing workers in concrete canal (or retaining) walls?"
-Well maybe its just us in New York then, and no they aren't "safety spotters". They are 5-10 guys standing around watching one guy work. Or they're having a cigarette break. Or coffee break. The taxpayers dont get a fair deal from the work that gets done, compared to the money that is spent. Why? Unions.
"Or would you prefer a return to the good old days of entombing workers in concrete canal (or retaining) walls?"
-Total myth; be it the Great Wall or Hoover Dam, it is well established that bodies in cement would compromise the integrity of the structure, and therefore would not have been placed in it.
"Every major government reorganization during the Bush administration has been done with the goal of reducing union protections for federal employees or replacing them altogether with private contractors"
-Well, first off, I said *more responsive*. How? Because political partie
Unionization in America had its heyday. It improved working conditions and got employees a fair shake. But now it creates undue burden on companies trying to compete with overseas giants like China. For example, some government workers get paid 40 hours when they only do 37 hours of work. Toll-booth workers get upwards of $25 an hour to stand there and hand out tickets. Government construction workers get paid somewheres around that same rate to stand around all day (honestly - do you EVER see these guys working?) In many ways, unionized workers have not held up their end of the bargain. There has not been a comparable increase in output compared with the increase in wages and benefits, which means slimmer profit margins for the company - and which means higher prices for the rest of us. Lawmakers are no longer as oblivious to the needs of workers as they once were (although they certainly far from perfect on this and many other matters). Perhaps is more Americans saw their work as a source of pride instead of simply a source of income, products would be of higher quality, worker turnover would be reduced, and everybody would end up making more money. Apparently this is a foreign concept in the America of the last 50 years.
I registered a domain with them for a year. Once it expired, they sent me a bill for over $20 (I forget exactly how much). They charged me the cost of the domain, and the rest was a fee because I didn't renew it, making it sound as though I had broken some contractual agreement to re-up. If I had intended to do that, I would have paid for 2 or more years at the time of registration. So now, they continue to hold my domain name (at the old nameservers, which prevents the NS IPs from being changed), and I am out of a domain name (which was registered for a non-profit organization who now wants their website back online). I refuse to pay GoDaddy for what amounts to highway robbery and terrible customer service. They screw me over, and expect me to continue doing business with them? Not happening.
Slashdot Mirror
...and...so much for WYSIWYG formatting from slashdot.
anybody?
"You're right, although not in the way you want to be. Productivity growth in America has vastly outpaced wage growth since the '70s. This applies across unionized and non-unionized industry alike. It doesn't see a rocket scientist to see that the extra money has wound up in the hands of either shareholders or management (depending on how honest management is). Irrespective of the wage question, the productivity growth is what has kept our economy so healthy over most of the last 30 years." -I wasn't debating that. What I specifically said was that the work completed by unionized workers does not match the subsequent increase in their pay. Seems reasonable that people should get paid for what they do, no? Nothing more, nothing less. "Unions are more necessary than ever if we want all Americans to share in the prosperity that their hard work has created through productivity growth. Just because we're not fighting against a 72-hour workweek anymore doesn't mean the basic reason for the existence of unions, to create equal bargaining power for workers, is any less desirable." -As another poster pointed out, this has been anything but true with the auto industry. Let me give you an example of how this spills over: "prevailing wage". In my city economic redevelopment has been significantly curtailed because workers must be paid "prevailing" wage versus REASONABLE wage. A mill owner who wants grant money to maintain his building to city code standards would have to pay his pillow-stuffers over $12 an hour (he pays them around $8 right now). With stiff competition from China, he would simply go out of business if he had to pay such prices. Market forces, my dear Watson. "It's true that some *salaried* government workers work only 35 or 37.5 hours. Their salaries reflect that; they are paid for 35 or 37.5 hours, not 40." -Shoulda checked up on this one buster. You're 100% wrong. They work 37, and get paid for 40. Paid for work they haven't done (and no they dont bring it home at night). "It's dirty, repetitive, unrewarding, dangerous (people like to rob tollbooths) and potentially injurious (to hearing, especially) work. Most toll collectors don't hand out tickets (there are machines for that) but count money. Would you consider it progress if we paid them minimum wage, they couldn't afford decent housing anymore, and turnover in these high-accountability positions (lots of cash handled) were suddenly 200%?" -Fact is, a LOT of jobs are dirty, repetitive, unrewarding and dangerous. And they don't get paid high wages and cushy benefits. Lets face it: this is a completely unskilled job. Perhaps if toll workers were paid less, and tolls therefore decreased, then inter/intra state commerce would become cheaper (think of a company that ships hundreds of loads a day). "If you see a worker standing, it's probably because he's acting as a safety spotter for someone else you can't see. When you're dealing with heavy machinery and dangerous chemicals all day, it's worth a little extra expense to have a second pair of eyes watching for mistakes. Or would you prefer a return to the good old days of entombing workers in concrete canal (or retaining) walls?" -Well maybe its just us in New York then, and no they aren't "safety spotters". They are 5-10 guys standing around watching one guy work. Or they're having a cigarette break. Or coffee break. The taxpayers dont get a fair deal from the work that gets done, compared to the money that is spent. Why? Unions. "Or would you prefer a return to the good old days of entombing workers in concrete canal (or retaining) walls?" -Total myth; be it the Great Wall or Hoover Dam, it is well established that bodies in cement would compromise the integrity of the structure, and therefore would not have been placed in it. "Every major government reorganization during the Bush administration has been done with the goal of reducing union protections for federal employees or replacing them altogether with private contractors" -Well, first off, I said *more responsive*. How? Because political partie
Unionization in America had its heyday. It improved working conditions and got employees a fair shake. But now it creates undue burden on companies trying to compete with overseas giants like China. For example, some government workers get paid 40 hours when they only do 37 hours of work. Toll-booth workers get upwards of $25 an hour to stand there and hand out tickets. Government construction workers get paid somewheres around that same rate to stand around all day (honestly - do you EVER see these guys working?) In many ways, unionized workers have not held up their end of the bargain. There has not been a comparable increase in output compared with the increase in wages and benefits, which means slimmer profit margins for the company - and which means higher prices for the rest of us. Lawmakers are no longer as oblivious to the needs of workers as they once were (although they certainly far from perfect on this and many other matters). Perhaps is more Americans saw their work as a source of pride instead of simply a source of income, products would be of higher quality, worker turnover would be reduced, and everybody would end up making more money. Apparently this is a foreign concept in the America of the last 50 years.
I registered a domain with them for a year. Once it expired, they sent me a bill for over $20 (I forget exactly how much). They charged me the cost of the domain, and the rest was a fee because I didn't renew it, making it sound as though I had broken some contractual agreement to re-up. If I had intended to do that, I would have paid for 2 or more years at the time of registration. So now, they continue to hold my domain name (at the old nameservers, which prevents the NS IPs from being changed), and I am out of a domain name (which was registered for a non-profit organization who now wants their website back online). I refuse to pay GoDaddy for what amounts to highway robbery and terrible customer service. They screw me over, and expect me to continue doing business with them? Not happening.