The Making of a Motherboard at ECS

sheiky writes "Hardcoreware.net has posted a look at the manufacturing process of a motherboard at a new ECS factory in Shen Zhen. Unlike most factories, they build boards from the ground up at one location, starting with the PCB all the way to a finished product. They also talk a little bit about the working conditions they witnessed in China."

Comments

Chinese work conditions

[seanadams.com]

ECS uses the "Grape System" to remind their employees not to slack off. For each day, there is a grape. Green means they had a perfect day, with no problems with work or otherwise. If an employee slacks off or shows up late for work, they get a red grape.

And I toil for what?!? Not so much as a raisin!

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Herkum01]

I love thier last comment about the workers, "I think ECS' employees take great pride in their hard work, even though they are getting paid very little in comparison to bloated unionized factories". There is not a bit of biase there I tell ya!

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Sinbios]

Monetary value and living expenses are also quite different in China, so there's really no comparison there...

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Anonymous Coward]

>>Monetary value and living expenses are also quite different in China, so there's really no comparison there...

Sure, but how do you feed a family with a grape per day?
Even a good sized one wouldn't fill you up if you have to cut it in thirds or fourths for the wife and kids.

Personally I think the workers should get money for spending a day making motherboards.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[zaphod_es]

> They are getting paid very little in comparison to bloated unionized factories How long can China carry on like this without a communist revolution?

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Anarchy24]

Unionization in America had its heyday. It improved working conditions and got employees a fair shake. But now it creates undue burden on companies trying to compete with overseas giants like China. For example, some government workers get paid 40 hours when they only do 37 hours of work. Toll-booth workers get upwards of $25 an hour to stand there and hand out tickets. Government construction workers get paid somewheres around that same rate to stand around all day (honestly - do you EVER see these guys working?) In many ways, unionized workers have not held up their end of the bargain. There has not been a comparable increase in output compared with the increase in wages and benefits, which means slimmer profit margins for the company - and which means higher prices for the rest of us. Lawmakers are no longer as oblivious to the needs of workers as they once were (although they certainly far from perfect on this and many other matters). Perhaps is more Americans saw their work as a source of pride instead of simply a source of income, products would be of higher quality, worker turnover would be reduced, and everybody would end up making more money. Apparently this is a foreign concept in the America of the last 50 years.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[gizmonic]

Perhaps is more Americans saw their work as a source of pride instead of simply a source of income...

And perhaps if companies saw their employees as assests instead of a cost expenditure aganist the bottom line, then maybe more people would care about the quality of their work. Back in the day when you went to work for a company at 18 and expected to work there until you retired, you did see a lot of pride in the work and company. But once companies shifted into that "you better thank us that you even HAVE a job" attitude, the workers attitudes shifted in response.

Remember the day when you bought stocks because the return on your investment was the dividends paid by holding that stock? That's when people had pride in their work. As the value of stocks became the price of the stock itself instead of the dividends, companies began to see anything that cost money as a bad thing, and that includes employee's salaries. That caused a shift in attitudes towards the work force (ie, they are expendable if it we can achieve a higher stock price), which resulted in a shift in attitude from employees.

Granted, I know that's an over simplification and leaves out a LOT of factors, but when you look at the big picture you can't deny the impact of this on the American workforce.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[dal20402]

There has not been a comparable increase in output compared with the increase in wages and benefits

You're right, although not in the way you want to be. Productivity growth in America has vastly outpaced wage growth since the '70s. This applies across unionized and non-unionized industry alike. It doesn't see a rocket scientist to see that the extra money has wound up in the hands of either shareholders or management (depending on how honest management is). Irrespective of the wage question, the productivity growth is what has kept our economy so healthy over most of the last 30 years.

While economists can debate the question until they're blue in the face, there is a credible argument, which I believe, that wider distribution of productivity gains is better for the economy, because money distributed to poorer people is likely to get spent immediately. Beyond a minimum wage/tax subsidy floor, we clearly don't want to achieve that policy goal through regulation of salaries. The best way to distribute money from productivity gains fairly is by equalizing bargaining power and information between labor and investors. How do you accomplish that? Unions and collective bargaining.

Unions are more necessary than ever if we want all Americans to share in the prosperity that their hard work has created through productivity growth. Just because we're not fighting against a 72-hour workweek anymore doesn't mean the basic reason for the existence of unions, to create equal bargaining power for workers, is any less desirable.

With the theory out of the way, I'll address some of your bogus (and oft-repeated by people who have never belonged to a union) examples. I was a government-employed union transit bus driver from 2000 to 2005 (which was a job I loved, incidentally), so perhaps I can clear up some of the misconceptions.

For example, some government workers get paid 40 hours when they only do 37 hours of work.

It's true that some *salaried* government workers work only 35 or 37.5 hours. Their salaries reflect that; they are paid for 35 or 37.5 hours, not 40. As far as hourly workers go, there are some provisions in some contracts that allow a worker to pick up hours without working -- but those are there to guarantee the full-time worker an 8-hour day when it's administratively simpler (for instance, when a bus run happens to return to the garage after 7 hours and 45 minutes thanks to the schedule) for the government not to set up an eight-hour workday. The unions fought hard for that to prevent management from simply shrinking workers' days down to four hours or less. I don't know of any examples of employers otherwise regularly paying employees for more hours than they work -- why not just raise the hourly rate instead?

Toll-booth workers get upwards of $25 an hour to stand there and hand out tickets.

I can't find any toll-collector wage over $21 in the country. Most of them are closer to $16. It's dirty, repetitive, unrewarding, dangerous (people like to rob tollbooths) and potentially injurious (to hearing, especially) work. Most toll collectors don't hand out tickets (there are machines for that) but count money. Would you consider it progress if we paid them minimum wage, they couldn't afford decent housing anymore, and turnover in these high-accountability positions (lots of cash handled) were suddenly 200%?

Government construction workers get paid somewheres around that same rate to stand around all day (honestly - do you EVER see these guys working?)

Everyone whines about this. So why aren't you on a state road crew? The jobs aren't that hard to get. People complain, but when the chips are down they realize these guys have tough jobs.

If you see a worker standing, it's probably because he's acting as a safety spotter for someone else you can't see. When you're dealing with heavy machinery and dangerous chemicals all day, it's worth

Re:Chinese work conditions

[TheGavster]

To many companies, employees are valuable assets, comparable to the minks that compose a mink coat. /apologies to Scott Adams

Re:Chinese work conditions

[jonin]

It's true that some *salaried* government workers work only 35 or 37.5 hours. Their salaries reflect that; they are paid for 35 or 37.5 hours, not 40.

Sometimes it is even worse. I am a city employee (firefighter) salaried at a 40 hr week but have to work a 46.7 hr week. Granted I am supposed to have 6.7 hours of sleep at work but that never happens because we are one of the busiest stations.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[bxbaser]

Great post.
If I had any points I would have modded you up.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Vlad2.0]

The best way to distribute money from productivity gains fairly is by equalizing bargaining power and information between labor and investors. How do you accomplish that? Unions and collective bargaining.

I'd say that the fairest method is by companies competing for the workforce. Locking Employer and Employee in and endless struggle against each other is neither fair nor a good solution to the problem (what if I don't want to be in a union? Not so fair them is it?) Healthy competition has served us quite well in recent history.

Unions are more necessary than ever if we want all Americans to share in the prosperity that their hard work has created through productivity growth. Just because we're not fighting against a 72-hour workweek anymore doesn't mean the basic reason for the existence of unions, to create equal bargaining power for workers, is any less desirable.

No. A more balanced import and export sheet with the rest of the world and a great (high) education system will ensure American prosperity in the future. Modernization would be a boon as well. Relatively few Americans' hard work has created the productivity growth we've seen (I attribute most of that growth to the baby boomers). Some American's also don't deserve to share in those benefits. Prosperity is not a guarantee in life, nor should it be.

Having also worked in a union myself (not for the big G however), it's laughable to say that the basic reason for the existence of unions is to create equal bargaining power for workers. That might have been true a century ago when there were no such thing as child labor laws, the 40 hour work week, minimum wage, etc, but it is, quite frankly, a stupid reason to argue for their existence now. The laws are in place, they're not going anywhere, the workers have won...and there was much rejoicing.

Let me give some examples of how unions have failed America:

1. Cough. The automobile industry. 'nuff said.

2. Longshore union. They pretty much get first dibs on stuff coming in from over seas, and anything that goes, uh, "missing" is just shrinkage that gets added to the cost of business (read: we pay for it). Despite their jobs being completely useless in an age of robots, they've somehow terrorized shipping companies and lawmakers into giving them the 5 finger discount, 6 figure salaries, and pensions. How hard do they work? Most of them sit on their ass and watch machines do the work they used to do (it's okay to use a machine as long as you still pay the man who's job is being taken over). Useful!

3. If you lived in Southern California you should remember the strike that took place a few years ago in many grocery stores (Vons/Safeway). Not only do these people get paid damn good money for work that requires nothing more than a high school education, they had full healthcare benefits. Why'd they strike? Cause "The Man" wanted them to pay a co-pay like the rest of us. Solution: a strike that will eventually allow other nonunionized grocery chains to overtake them. Nothing says short term profit like long term unemployment!

4. Unionized government labor. Yes, I realize the parent here is one of those people. Thanks to this bullshit (read: pension plans) the City of San Diego is for all practical purposes bankrupt. Mmm. Fiscal 2007 budget: $2.6 billion. Pension fund deficit: $1.43 billion. Solution: cut funding to everything that doesn't have "political suicide" written on it and raise taxes. Sure am glad we have unions! (source: http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/pension/2 0060619-9999-1n19bankrupt.html

5. I would say that the downfall of American construction/manufacturing is directly tied to unions who tried to keep jobs no matter what. The resulting inability to compete in the global marketplace doomed the corporations that employed them. I wonder how many familys w

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Anarchy24]

"You're right, although not in the way you want to be. Productivity growth in America has vastly outpaced wage growth since the '70s. This applies across unionized and non-unionized industry alike. It doesn't see a rocket scientist to see that the extra money has wound up in the hands of either shareholders or management (depending on how honest management is). Irrespective of the wage question, the productivity growth is what has kept our economy so healthy over most of the last 30 years." -I wasn't debating that. What I specifically said was that the work completed by unionized workers does not match the subsequent increase in their pay. Seems reasonable that people should get paid for what they do, no? Nothing more, nothing less. "Unions are more necessary than ever if we want all Americans to share in the prosperity that their hard work has created through productivity growth. Just because we're not fighting against a 72-hour workweek anymore doesn't mean the basic reason for the existence of unions, to create equal bargaining power for workers, is any less desirable." -As another poster pointed out, this has been anything but true with the auto industry. Let me give you an example of how this spills over: "prevailing wage". In my city economic redevelopment has been significantly curtailed because workers must be paid "prevailing" wage versus REASONABLE wage. A mill owner who wants grant money to maintain his building to city code standards would have to pay his pillow-stuffers over $12 an hour (he pays them around $8 right now). With stiff competition from China, he would simply go out of business if he had to pay such prices. Market forces, my dear Watson. "It's true that some *salaried* government workers work only 35 or 37.5 hours. Their salaries reflect that; they are paid for 35 or 37.5 hours, not 40." -Shoulda checked up on this one buster. You're 100% wrong. They work 37, and get paid for 40. Paid for work they haven't done (and no they dont bring it home at night). "It's dirty, repetitive, unrewarding, dangerous (people like to rob tollbooths) and potentially injurious (to hearing, especially) work. Most toll collectors don't hand out tickets (there are machines for that) but count money. Would you consider it progress if we paid them minimum wage, they couldn't afford decent housing anymore, and turnover in these high-accountability positions (lots of cash handled) were suddenly 200%?" -Fact is, a LOT of jobs are dirty, repetitive, unrewarding and dangerous. And they don't get paid high wages and cushy benefits. Lets face it: this is a completely unskilled job. Perhaps if toll workers were paid less, and tolls therefore decreased, then inter/intra state commerce would become cheaper (think of a company that ships hundreds of loads a day). "If you see a worker standing, it's probably because he's acting as a safety spotter for someone else you can't see. When you're dealing with heavy machinery and dangerous chemicals all day, it's worth a little extra expense to have a second pair of eyes watching for mistakes. Or would you prefer a return to the good old days of entombing workers in concrete canal (or retaining) walls?" -Well maybe its just us in New York then, and no they aren't "safety spotters". They are 5-10 guys standing around watching one guy work. Or they're having a cigarette break. Or coffee break. The taxpayers dont get a fair deal from the work that gets done, compared to the money that is spent. Why? Unions. "Or would you prefer a return to the good old days of entombing workers in concrete canal (or retaining) walls?" -Total myth; be it the Great Wall or Hoover Dam, it is well established that bodies in cement would compromise the integrity of the structure, and therefore would not have been placed in it. "Every major government reorganization during the Bush administration has been done with the goal of reducing union protections for federal employees or replacing them altogether with private contractors" -Well, first off, I said *more responsive*. How? Because political partie

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Anarchy24]

...and...so much for WYSIWYG formatting from slashdot.
anybody?

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Mark4ST]

Where are the workers over thirty?

Re:Chinese work conditions

[VeXteR]

What you describe is caused by the mindset that: If a company doesnt INCREASE its profits yearly, they are failing. Most companies cannot meet this demand without targeting the workers. Publicly traded stock is what cuases this problem.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[TheDugong]

"40 hours when they only do 37 hours of work"

Hours worked != productivity. You are reading slashdot, so I would guess that you are a "knowledge worker". I am surprised you do not realise this. Especially as...

"honestly - do you EVER see these guys working?"

Let me see you hands... They don't look like construction workers hands.

Carry around some bricks sometime. You will realise why they need to stand around quite often.

"There has not been a comparable increase in output compared with the increase in wages and benefits,"

Ho ho ho ho ho, he he he he he, ha ha ha ha ha!

So how come the western world continually produces more waste per capita year on year?

I would argue that output has increased because the increase in wages and benefits allows people to buy more crap, not the otherway around.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Anarchy24]

Actually, you make too many assumptions. I HAVE carried garbage. I HAVE carried bricks, lumber, nails, and tools. And my hands ARE callused (and not from typing). Standing around is no excuse. And what I said about 5-10 guys doing nothing wasn't an exaggeration. I have NEVER, in all my life, seen state road crews work. Privatized ones work because they have an incentive. Unionized state workers have no fear of losing their jobs or taking a pay cut.


Why pay somebody for hours they haven't worked? Seems non-sensical to me; thats what a salary is for.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Hans Lehmann]

Monetary value and living expenses are also quite different in China, so there's really no comparison there..

But not for long.... From today's Los Angeles Times, soon workers in China will reap the benefits of our glorious HMO medical care system, thanks to companies here in the US with double-plus-good names like 'Sunnylife Global', for which they're billed $375 per annum, plus copayments.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[frank_adrian314159]

Thanks to this bullshit (read: pension plans) the City of San Diego is for all practical purposes bankrupt.

Uh, excuse me? Last time I heard, the main reason that SD was bankrupt was because the folks in charge of investing the money in the SD public employee pension fund did a piss poor job of investing (mainly by focusing large amounts of money on derivative contracts). Blaming this on the employees is incredibly stupid. Or do you think that employees don't have the right to ask for pensions? Top level execs seem to have no problem doing this (last I heard Jack Welch was getting millions of dollars a year in pension benefits from GE; he's not the only one). But I guess they're entitled.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[AvitarX]

The days when unions could expect to have substantial representation in the House seem to be over.

The unions are not just losing it in the house, they are also losing it with the public. Unions are slow to adapt (like the record infustry) and have thought hey have their place in principal the large mega-unions of today are not what we need. In the auto industry the unions hurt productivity, not just improve wages and benfits. Thge non-unionised Japanese car manufacturers pay as much and have layed off far less, partly due to better design, but also due to higher productivity achieved by the novel idea of letting people due what needs to be done, rather than only one specific job. If Honda needs more Civics and less Accords they use the smae people doing different jobs, if GM needs more Cobolts and less Jimmys they are stuck with people twiddling thumbs. I would take better pay and job security over a severance as the business model of my employer colopses.

FWIW, my personal experiance with unions has been bad. I worked at a supermarket and after union dues I was with less than minimum wage. But fortunatly, for my money I was assured that I would not get a better position or a raise unless I was the most senior employee in my position. At the same time my friend was working 20 minutes away for 30% more and no union dues.

We may need unions, but not the ones we have.

PS. I am not anti union, just think the ones we have are getting what they had coming to them.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Anonymous Coward]

progressive capitalist pig!

Re:Chinese work conditions

[dal20402]

Relatively few Americans' hard work has created the productivity growth we've seen (I attribute most of that growth to the baby boomers). Some American's also don't deserve to share in those benefits.

I'd like to see some support for this. The data I've seen suggests the productivity gains have been extraordinarily broad-based. Managers deserve some of the credit, as IT and implementation of continually more efficient logistical procedures have helped workers get more done. But workers deserve credit as well. From the bottom to the top, we're working more hours, taking less vacation, and using more effective time-management techniques.

I don't know who you are referring to when you say "some Americans don't deserve to share," but I believe if a worker is more productive that worker should be rewarded accordingly. A perfectly working market would ensure that by offering the worker another job if he were not paid in accordance with his productivity. But when there are the sort of large-scale, systemic differences in bargaining power that you see between individuals and large corporations, the market doesn't work perfectly. Unions are the perfect tool to right that balance, since they allow the market to function with equal bargaining power and without regulation.

The laws are in place, they're not going anywhere, the workers have won...

Not so fast. We've seen steady erosion in the real minimum wage, repeated attempts to exclude more and more workers from overtime protections, weakening of ergonomic protections, shrinkage of worker's comp benefits, lackadaisical enforcement of basic things like lunch breaks and safety rules, and administration-sponsored attempts to replace entire classes of well-protected jobs with insecure, low-paying bottom-rung ones. It's not like the same forces that led to 72-hour workweeks in the bad old days have magically gone away. Preserving workplace sanity, like preserving freedom, requires constant vigilance.

1. Cough. The automobile industry. 'nuff said.

The union's job is not to respond to long-term trends in a product market. That's management's job. While perhaps a more perceptive group of unions would have structured the big health care and retirement programs differently, to allow for more flexibility, the real blame can be squarely laid on the lazy management that failed to see the Japanese carmakers right under its nose in the '60s and '70s.

2. Longshore union.

Say what? These guys are still killed at the rate of several a year. They are killed in the most gruesome imaginable ways: crushed by containers, sent flying a quarter mile by snapping cables, falling 100 feet from cranes, etc. It's probably the most dangerous union job there is, and one of the most dangerous in the country. Yes, machines are doing some work they used to do, but they put themselves in physical danger for the sake of a critical step in our economic process. They deserve every cent they get.

3 ... Why'd they strike? Cause "The Man" wanted them to pay a co-pay like the rest of us.

I can never quite get my head around this argument. What you are saying is "With my artificially low bargaining power I can't get a proper medical plan. Therefore no one else should get it either, even if they were smart enough to band together to negotiate as an equal with the company."

If the workers at the non-union stores were to organize, they could get that health plan as well. So could you. Protect your interests. Don't enable someone who's trying to ensure that you get a below-market outcome for their own benefit.

4 ... Thanks to this bullshit (read: pension plans) the City of San Diego is for all practical purposes bankrupt. Mmm. Fiscal 2007 budget: $2.6 billion. Pension fund deficit: $1.43 billion.

And this is the union's fault how? Again, it was bad fiscal management by the city that got it into this mess. The pension plan was

Re:Chinese work conditions

[DrLang21]

I'm an engineer working in acedemia making $12 an hour. And you defend toll booth workers making 16/hour?

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Toddlerbob]

Great Post and very articulate. People should read books like Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America by Barbara Ehrenreich or Fast Food Nation by Eric Schlosser to get an idea of the way things are going in America. Our country is being ripped apart by greed, as the ownership society takes over -- where you either own your own stuff, or you're out of luck.

When I first began traveling to China 8 years ago (and China, by the way, is full of wonderful people, though I differ with their government on many issues) I reflected that China was becoming more like America, and America was becoming more like China. For example, in America, we have the defacto suspension of habeas corpus, the accelerating gap between the haves and the have nots (and the have mores, as Bush likes to call his base), the increasing surveillance of ordinary citizens and the recording of their activities, and the expanded secrecy of government (Cheney's office will not even tell reporters who works there, let alone what their job descriptions are) which puts us square on a path towards Chinese-style government, where a constitution has only existed for a few years, and the rule of law is still a long way off.

A friend of mine recently viewed some factories in Shenzhen similar to the ones in this article, though smaller and producing different products. He got to talk to the people in charge of the factory and found out that the tax laws are such that the factory was only meant to operate about ten years. After that, the tax subsidies fade out. Then they will build new factories under new tax subsidies somewhere further west where wages can even be lower. And what about the workers laid off from the present factories? - well, who cares?

Re:Chinese work conditions

[dal20402]

This is the same fallacy I pointed out in the other post -- the idea of "well, since I can't get it with my inadequate bargaining power, then no one, even those who organize so as to be on an equal footing with the company, should get it."

The toll takers negotiated their contract. Management approved it. It seems to me if you are an engineer making $12 an hour then your workplace is crying out for unionization, or possibly you need to exercise your individual market rights and get a better job. (How is that even possible? I made $12.50 an hour as a desk supervisor at a nonunion hotel 6 years ago. I made between $18 and $24 an hour, plus overtime, as a union bus driver. I have friends who are ordinary IT guys in academia whose salary, if measured by the hour, would add up to about $20-$22/hour.)

I feel for you -- I didn't enjoy making $12 an hour either. But the toll takers won what they have through a fair market process, and they aren't to blame for whatever forces are causing you to be underpaid.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Bing Tsher E]

Uh, the toll takers 'won' what they have through the political process.

The largest 'growth' area for Unionization is government workers. Because the political process gives them the leverage, and because, frankly, their 'management' is a bunch of people in the civil service, too.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Qzukk]

Publicly traded stock has been around for centuries now. If anything, I blame it on the websites that enabled a whole new class of traders: the daytraders. These are the people who have nothing better to do than sit around all day trading on every little shift of the market, holding stock for days or even just hours, and who expect the value tomorrow to be better than today's, with no care about what the value will be in a week since they'll be long gone.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[once1er]

Being the son and product of a union which you directly referenced, the ILWU, and a member of a family who have had at least 3 generations of Long Shoremen or Marine Clerks I have deep pride for the men and women who risk their lives every day moving more inventory in and out of this country than you can even begin to fathom.

"Sit on their ass and watch machines do the work they used to do"

That's true, some of their jobs are being replaced by machines. And someone needs to run those machines. It isn't uncommon for someone to sit while operating machinery. But what you're failing to notice then is that jobs people can and have been doing quite successfully for many years now are being offset to machines that don't do the jobs very well, and require adult supervision. Currently the companies are pushing for an automated system to inventory and monitor the shipping yard, and every attempt to add some mechanical automation to the current system has met with horrible failure and loss of productivity. They implement overly complicated systems requiring machines to align multi-ton objects with laser precision in order to have them later read by optical scanners when a human being is capable of inventory a row of containers in half the time, with less trouble.

They want to move security and dock operations out of state to the locations where the home offices are. But what happens if something goes wrong? Obviously you can keep a staff of repair people, and security agents to handle and fix problems. But in the mean time, it could mean the shut down of one of the worlds most active ports. Whereas a dock run locally by humans could maintain operation in another location while a problem was being handled. Humans don't have to be programmed to route around trouble; we've spent millions of years developing that skill.

As for safety, there is no question that the job is tremendously safer today then it was 100 years ago. And no, there aren't riots in the streets and dock bosses beating men. But there is still a major problem with safety. In fact, not 2 weeks ago a man was severed in half by truck driver, who then ran off the dock and disappeared. The truck driver was undocumented immigrant, the company who owned the truck denied they hired him, and the man will probably never be found. A union worker, who was trained and qualified for a job and guarantied by his union that he would do that job well was essentially murdered by a man who most likely had no formal training, who's employer would have provided no protection for the worker or the shipping company in the event of accident. That is what unions give to employers in exchange for wage, a guaranteed level of skill that can be expected to perform when the person shows up for work one day.

The exchange between employer and employee should be a friendlier one than it is with the ILWU, but in an industry where the employer has consistent and demonstrable lack of concern for their employees it is difficult to trust their intentions. Unions can act like big babies, and the ILWU is the largest of them. But that doesn't mean there isn't a good reason to do so at times. Today they struggle to keep a job that has been a great source of income for people who would have otherwise not had the education or means to raise live and raise their families.

CEO's of companies have to act in the best interest of their stock holders at all times, that's basically required to do so by the Securities and Exchange Commission. But who is supposed to act in the best interest of the employee. A single person has little or no influence in a company. If one person quits they are easily replaced. But if they can all stand together as a group and demand better treatment they have a better chance of winning. And by treatment I don't mean just safety and wages but the reliability of the job itself. In America we've had the chance to be part of a great scientific and technological boom, the Internet. But how are American's expected to care about what they do when the gove

Re:Chinese work conditions

[LewsTherinKinslayer]

thank you for one the best posts on slashdot, ever.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[lukestuts]

"...they are getting paid very little in comparison to bloated unionized factories"

OK, I can't be the only person who read this as un-ionized and read the entire article looking for a reference to vapours or high voltages? Can I? :(

Re:Chinese work conditions

[mliikset]

"Government construction workers get paid somewheres around that same rate to stand around all day (honestly - do you EVER see these guys working?)" That isn't the point, do the projects ever get finished? I agree with your assessment of unions today, the original union guys were literally fighting for their lives. Since the new career goal is for everyone to be a millionaire, unions want that for their membership as well, at the expense of the more important concept, working conditions.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[br00tus]

As far as the article statement ''I think ECS' employees take great pride in their hard work, even though they are getting paid very little in comparison to bloated unionized factories''.

The "bloat" in unionized factories is that the people creating the wealth, the workers, keep more of the wealth they create then their non-unionized counterparts. From the author's perspective, that of the factory owner, or stockholder who owns shares in the corporation which owns a factory, wages are bloat, as lower wages means larger dividend checks coming in the mail every three months.

Then he goes on to talk about hard work and pride, which of course, is the farthest thing in the world from some heir collecting a dividend check from wealth created by other's work. But in his mind, the idler deserves more, and the worker keeping most of the wealth they create is bloat.

As far as pride - if one of these people tried to form a union they would be jailed, or even executed. I'm sure this author a century ago would be talking about how much those negroes had pride in their work of picking cotton in Mississippi. It all kind of reminds me of the ending of the Bridge on the River Kwai.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[eljasbo]

The labor union time has passed a while ago. True, they were needed to improve working conditions years ago, but OSHA and other labor laws are in place now. It is easy to see why so many jobs are being exported to India or Mexico when the labor unions demand very high wages for the workers. It is rediculous that some of the unionized auto workers get the same $25/hour I get and better benefits than me (working a skilled and technical job)for putting tires on cars on an assembly line. I worked in a tire shop in high school for much less; it really isnt that hard to figure out. Just look at the financials of GM. Unions and pensions are eating up a huge percentage of the cost of their new cars. GM is losing huge amounts of cashas a result of these unions. On the other hand, look at non-union manufacturers of cars in the US, such as Nissan. Their financials are totally different and they are actually making a profit each year. The US is a free market economy. If someone does not like the wage they are paid they are free to look elsewhere. Organizers of strikes should be fired from their jobs to make an example of what happens when you dont come to work.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[NumerusSpy]

Toll-booth workers get upwards of $25 an hour to stand there and hand out tickets.>/i>

What is wrong with that? I bet they aren't allowed to smoke.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[AppyPappy]

"Unions are more necessary than ever if we want all Americans to share in the prosperity that their hard work has created through productivity growth."

I pay the union every pay period so the union leaders can drive BMW's and vacation in luxury condos owned by the union. They protect me from being fired when I break a rule. When we go on strike, the union swears it doesn't have any money even though we have been paying into the system for decades. If I ask too many questions, I lose my job.

How does this help me share in prosperity?

Re:Chinese work conditions

[dal20402]

Sounds like you need new local leadership. Someone needs to campaign and run against your officers on a clean-up platform. If for some reason that's not possible, then you may need to go to the national union (if there is one), because any union local should have democratic procedures for selecting its officers.

Why does the union own condos? (I'm ignoring the "BMW" comment because union leaders get paid too, and like anyone else they can spend their own money however they want. If it were a priority for them most senior union employees could probably afford some sort of BMW.) It's not a union's job to provide free vacations for the leadership.

Also, how can you lose your job for asking too many questions? The union can't just summarily kick you out. If they can, see the first paragraph -- you need new leadership.

To answer your larger question, the fact that it's possible to corrupt a union doesn't negate unions' purpose any more than the fact that it's possible to corrupt a corporation negates the idea of going into business.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

Ugh. Some time ago, my boss asked the people in my team to list our valuable assets. Sadly, I was the only one to mention the employees, and then got a confused look from my boss as he asked me to explain. I run all of the UNIX based systems for our B2B and B2C websites, I suppose I should have given him a demonstration.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[just_forget_it]

Plus, day traders NEVER make money in the long run. If you look at any given stock in a one-year period, it will end up lower 90% of the time. If you look at the same stock in a five year period, that percentage is reduced. Finally, if you look at it in a TEN year period, it will almost always end up higher.
It's a shame that so many people treat Wall Street like Las Vegas.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[just_forget_it]

I think it may also have to do with the attitude of the new, large mega-corporations. No one is interested in long-term stability anymore. Everyone just asks "how can we make more money TODAY," even though oftentimes the temporary savings is overshadowed in orders of magnitude by the additional costs these "savings" bring with them. It's a classic spend-10-dollars-to-save-50-cents syndrome. IMHO, companies today choose to be 'cheap' as opposed to frugal, and often forget that in order to make money, you HAVE to spend money.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Creepy]

personally, I have a much more negative opinion of unions, but I suppose it really depends on the particular union and the contract. I got hired onto a job in college that required being in the union but didn't get benefits and I earned minimum wage (an extremely short lived job, mind you - I quit a little over a month after starting).

    My next job was non-union, paid $2 more per hour + benefits for anyone over 20 hours, but had a union forklift driver "...getting paid $18/hour + benefits to sit on his ass all day and gets overtime if he's one minute over 40" (actually, it may have been overtime or time and a half, not benefits, but it was something like that - 15 years and many dead brain cells later) I was involved in the incident that made a manager say (almost shout - he was pissed) those words - the forklift driver had refused to help slap shipping labels on packages and chose to stand around and wait while another guy the manager and I did it and loaded the packages onto the pallet for him (and the forklift was being used only to rush it to shipping - normally I'd have hauled it with a pallet jack). We made that shipment with seconds to spare, no thanks to the forklift guy (honestly, I think I coulda run the pallet jack as fast as the forklift moved - so he got 4 hours of overtime pay for basically doing nothing useful - he moved about 20 pallets to shipping, but a couple of lazy temps coulda done that with pallet jacks and still had time to help out).

    A salaried manager always putting in 80-90 hour work weeks and willing to help on the floor for the success of the company if necessary vs a union forklift driver that does nothing extra and 40 hour weeks who could care less about the success of the company since he's guaranteed a job at the same pay and benefits anywhere he goes. Only in America.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[dgatwood]

They implement overly complicated systems requiring machines to align multi-ton objects with laser precision in order to have them later read by optical scanners when a human being is capable of inventory a row of containers in half the time, with less trouble.

If that's true, then the people who set it up didn't have the slightest idea what they were doing. Bar codes are about the easiest thing in the world to read from relatively large distances, at relatively high speeds, with relatively poor goods orientation, all using relatively cheap equipment. Aligning things with laser precision just so you can read a bar code goes way beyond laughable.... :-)

A union worker, who was trained and qualified for a job and guarantied by his union that he would do that job well was essentially murdered by a man who most likely had no formal training, who's employer would have provided no protection for the worker or the shipping company in the event of accident. That is what unions give to employers in exchange for wage, a guaranteed level of skill that can be expected to perform when the person shows up for work one day.

Actually, that's not true, at least not in the general case.

First, not all unions require a period of indenture/apprenticeship, which means that many unions don't guarantee anything at all about the skill of their employers. For example, many of the little micro-unions that are part of the UAW fall into this category (e.g. the American Federation of Teachers). In fact, one could reasonably argue that the UAW should stick to auto workers, as diversification in a union leads to progressively less and less guarantees about the quality of union employees relative to non-union employees....

Second, even unions that do require a period of indenture/apprenticeship cannot really ensure that the employee won't slack off and do nothing after they get to a comfortable level in the union. In that regard, it is much like a computer certification or a college degree. It means that someone believes that the person is capable of that level of work, not that the person will consistently perform at that level.

In fact, one could very reasonably argue that for labor that requires a formal education, labor unions can't really provide any benefits to anyone. They can't reasonably provide training---you already did four years of that in college. They can't reasonably force better wages---the company will just move your job to India. They can't reasonably ensure that the employees are well trained---college education varies widely from school to school. They can't even fight to prevent employees from being mistreated by their employers because the cost to import things like software is zero, so again, there's nothing stopping the company from simply moving your jobs overnight to China or wherever.

Labor unions did what they could for unskilled and semiskilled labor. They improved things in the U.S. until they hit a wall, then they kept fighting for more and drove the jobs out of the U.S. The real problem is that labor unions at some point changed from being a means to an end to being an end in and of itself. The moment that happened---the moment the unions started feeling a need to earn that portion of your wages that they garnish---that's when the labor unions ceased to be a positive force. Instead of dissolving them when the crisis had been averted, they continued to exist, grabbing more money and more power for themselves, until they became the very thing that they were fighting against, and the workers traded one greedy master for another.

And, of course in the tech industry, the wall has already been reached. Tech sector folks are already paid very well compared to the average American. They live largely in areas where the cost of living is obscene, though, and thus, they end up being paid very poorly compared to the average American when yo

Re:Chinese work conditions

[once1er]

The fact that he thought his job was assured no matter how he performed is likely to either be false, or a failure in the way that the union is setup. It isn't a protection against stupidity and laziness. Or at least shouldn't be. The manager can and should have filed a complaint with the union, and the company who was working with that union. And should have included statements from fellow employees and members of the same union who were witness to it. The lack of accountability is of definite detriment to spirit in which unions were originally established. A weak union is pointless of course and if there is no effort made by the people who operate it, then when the next election comes around it should be you or someone willing to make a difference who runs. Life in general is limited by what you make out of a situation, and unions are just an attempt (in the case of ILWU and many others) to make the best best case for a better quality of living for the employees of a company. The forklift driver was an asshole, fuck him. But he doesn't represent the hundreds of thousands of workers who rely on unions to get a fair shake.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[once1er]

I hate to go "on the attack" but I don't want to bother coming up with a structured argument and whatnot. So forgive me if this sounds a bit defensive or angry. I've got to ask, if a union is incapable of assuring the employer of a certain level of qualification due to the complex nature and chaotic world of schools, trade education, and general lazy-ass-tom-foolery how is it possible that the same employer would be capable of doing so themselves? An employer holds no secret key that can enable them to divine the best worker any better than a structured organization whos existance /should/ depend on the quality of the workers. The fact of whether a union is capable of doing this at all or not is on a per union or even per person basis of course, which is what i suppose we're talking about. But if shotty work or dangerous behavior is the result of the actions of a union there /should/ be reforms in that union, or perhaps a disbandment of the entire thing. The point is, if a union can't hire good employees there isn't much of a shot that the average HR department is going to be able to either. The middle of your post, as I read it sounds like this (over simplified of course), "Well they can't do any good, so why bother trying at all." And honestly thats a bit sad. Have we become so complacent and expectant that our jobs will just disappear into someone elses hands who's willing to live a shittier life than us that we are no longer willing to even attempt to exercise any control over our circumstances? A union isn't a silver bullet aimed at the heart of corporate america as they ship millions of jobs to other countries. Its unified line of defence. A rallying point at the beach head. Its a movement toward action. Well, that is if its at its best. But you're right, at its worse its just another organized way of profiting from the hardwork of people who trying to make a living. Its not enough to just say you're a group of people, you've got to act. If you don't think that a large union such as the ILWU or Teamsters, or a conglomeration of unions can change the minds of politicians and company owners to provide incentives for staying in this country, then you're going to be really surprised when the next contract negotiations come around in 2007. I think its a matter of believing whether or not it is possible to control the situation as an employee. In California we're an 'at will' state and if you don't like the job or how the employer is handling something, you can walk away whenever you like. It might not turn any heads if one person did it. But a couple of thousand people, or hundred thousand and you've got yourself one hell of a show. Or at least another parade of people through the streets of LA, but this time big angry dock workers with health benefits, savings accounts, and a bit of time to kill while fruit, grain, cars, and all those other goods you said they could just emport cheaply rot about 30 miles off the coast of california, washington and oregon.

Re:Chinese work conditions

[Anonymous Coward]

The most dangerous job in USA seems to be in the wood industry (woodlogging I think). I don't know if it is unionised. Being a policeman is lower on the list.

Dupe

[Ramble]

Bit-Tech did this over a week ago.

http://www.bit-tech.net/bits/2006/06/16/ecs_shen_z hen_factory_tours/1.html

Re:Dupe

[HardCase]

And they did a better job of it, too. A much better article.

-h-

Re:Dupe

[ncc74656]

Bit-Tech did this over a week ago.

...and Anandtech was there nearly three years ago.

Re:Dupe

[Ramble]

I didn't know Anandtech possessed a TARDIS, becuase this facility was opened in November 2005.

Was this article written by the Chinese?

[x_man]

I think ECS' employees take great pride in their hard work, even though they are getting paid very little in comparison to bloated unionized factories in North America.

Yes, how dare those union workers try to get things like livable wages, child labor laws and health insurance. What were those silly Americans thinking?

X

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[WilliamSChips]

You have committed thoughtcrime. Unions doubleplusungood. -Republican Administration

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets also not forget 12 hour work day

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[thejam]

Here, here! I nearly lost my lunch at the suggestion that taking lower wages for longer hours and with a public ridicule "grape" system is somehow more efficient? For whom? Your therapist?

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[contrapunctus]

I think ECS' employees take great pride in their hard work, even though they are getting paid very little in comparison to bloated unionized factories in North America.

Yes, how dare those union workers try to get things like livable wages, child labor laws and health insurance. What were those silly Americans thinking?

There was a show on PBS last friday about GM paying off workers to quit. One instance was a janitor (in a union) making nearly twice as much as me. I'm a college professor. Why did I go to school for so long?

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[lowlight852]

Yeah! Let the unionized janitor make $20 USD per hour mobbing garbage while his company loses millions every year, eventually going bankrupt! The simple fact that he is alive and can walk and breathe gives him the RIGHT!

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[ettlz]

As a Brit, I really cannot understand the crazy phobia (some) Americans have about unions and socialism. "Ooer! Reds!" Let's not forget these movements arose out of injustice. OK, so they got out of hand in the UK in the 1970s, but things are generally stable nowadays and we're not [yet] slaves to The Party. Many other west-European states have systems with a socialist slant, and they're not doing too bad either. Is socialism a dirty word, automatically equated with communism or something? Is it un-American to disclaim the class system, and ensure that one's neighbours do not starve or suffer ill-health?

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

Where, where?

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[goofyheadedpunk]

So you didn't have to be a janitor?

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

To educate people? There are plenty of other jobs you could have taken if money were the most important thing in your life. Whore springs to mind.

"Twice as much as I" btw, Mr. College Professor.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Yokaze]

> Why did I go to school for so long?

For an intellectually more challenging job with more freedom? Actually, they'd have to pay me twice as much as now, if I'd have to do a similar tedious job as a janitor.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Skidge]

Why did I go to school for so long?

I know I'd rather be doing academic work in a field I'm interested in than punching a clock to clean tobacco spit out of trashcans or to clean up after someone's explosive diarrhea, especially if you get paid enough as a professor to live relatively comfortably.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[contrapunctus]

It was a little bit of a rhetorical question but yes everybody's answer is right.
It still bothers me though.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, for many americans, the answer is yes. But I suspect that the question was rhetorical.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[loraksus]

I don't know if teaching was your ultimate goal, but did you seriously expect that you would make a lot of money in education? Sure, if / when you get tenure, it isn't that bad, but adjunct and non-tenured professors have to put up with a lot of bullshit for little pay and no benefits (I'm not even going to mention k-12). As far as I know, this has been the case for the last 150+ years, so it can hardly be considered a surprise.

BTW, It seems that the majority of math teachers at the college / uni level are bitter that they spent so many years in school before they "discovered" their career options are basically limited to teaching for $40,000 a year.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[mrchaotica]

As a Brit, I really cannot understand the crazy phobia (some) Americans have about unions and socialism.

It's not a "crazy phobia" when the union is so out of control that domestic industries can no longer compete with foreign ones. This, incidentally, is why Ford and (especially) GM are getting their asses handed to them by foreign companies: Toyota, Honda, Hyundai etc. are building factories here that employ Americans at low, non-union wages, while Ford and GM are closing factories because they're drowning in pension payments to their unionized workers. The union is so powerful -- too powerful -- that it's actually driving jobs away and hurting both the economy and the workers themselves.

On the other hand, the tech sector could use a bit of unionization, to protect workers from outsourcing and H1-Bs. So really, it's a question of balance.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno. Me, if someone pays me decently enough *and* I can go home and not take work with me, I'm there. Between my 9 to 5 and my consulting business, I make a good living, but it's hectic and stressful. I can't ever *leave* work because I can login remotely and I have an evil cellphone. The only part of a low-stress, minimal responsibility part I hate are the pricks who think that, because you don't make as much as they do, they're somehow better.

I just want to make enough to do two chicks at once.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Associate]

Because most Americans can't make the distinction between Socialism the Government Model and Socialism the Political Party. And those that do know the difference think the latter's goal is to set up the former. In a nation where individualism is everything, you'll find greater resistance.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[gorehog]

Hm...maybe you should join a Teachers Union? Professors are the labor of the college system after all.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Znork]

"so out of control that domestic industries can no longer compete"

As you're handing out the criticism, dont forget to mention the other side of the coin. How about 'intellectual property legislation so out of control that domestic workers can no longer compete'.

Unions arent alone in driving spiralling costs. Rent-seeking is rife in the whole economy.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[coldmist]

Yes, socialism is a dirty word, since it and communism have the same end goal, just different means of getting there.

The problem with Unions, IMHO, is that they concentrate power, which in turn gets corrupted. Once a factory goes union, is there an option to "opt-out"? Do I have the "freedom" to not be union while my co-worker is? Since there isn't, that power tends to corruption. A classic example is teachers unions. The teachers are paid from property taxes (here in the US anyway), which they then pay Union dues. Then, if a lawsuit comes up, the state uses more tax money to handle a lawsuit which is being defended by money that came from taxes in the first place. The system just feeds itself.

As a final point, you said "Is it un-American to disclaim the class system, and ensure that one's neighbours do not starve or suffer ill-health?"

Well, the difference is we (speaking broadly here) would rather deal with a starving neighbor on a personal level through personal generosity and donations/gifts than to have the money taken by us through taxes, and then paid out to other people that might or might not deserve it or use it wisely. If I knew that an honest neighbor was starving to death, I would go to the store, by $100 worth of groceries for example, and give them to them. However, I would not do the same for a neighbor that is a drunk and is wasting his money on booze. What happens in socialized welfare is the government does not/can not make a distinction between the two and take $300 from me (the government programs are expensive to administer, right) and give $100 cash to each of my neighbors.

See the reports about the money that went to Hurricane Katrina victims. See this article for a quick example: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la- na-fema15jun15,0,1306432.story?coll=la-home-headli nes

Ultimately, it boils down to the individual being responsible for ones own actions, having both the ability to succeed (like Bill Gates) and the possiblity of failure. You can't have one without the other. In a Union (at a factory level) or socialism/communism (a national level), a safety net is erected to prevent failure. The same mechanism also stunts success.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

What crap. It is because Ford and especially GM do not invest enough in R&D to create up to date vehicles that are fuel efficient and well designed.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

> It's not a "crazy phobia" when the union is so out of control that domestic industries can no longer compete with foreign ones.

And you think that the 10% to 20% value that shareholders extract from companies every year have no impact on their ability to compete ?

Capitalist corporation are also inherently less apt to compete, because of that permanent blood drain.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[DAldredge]

So you could get tenure later in life so you would still get a check while having TA's teach most/all of your classes?

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Skynyrd]

It's not a "crazy phobia" when the union is so out of control that domestic industries can no longer compete with foreign ones. This, incidentally, is why Ford and (especially) GM are getting their asses handed to them by foreign companies: Toyota, Honda, Hyundai etc. are building factories here that employ Americans at low, non-union wages, while Ford and GM are closing factories because they're drowning in pension payments to their unionized workers. The union is so powerful -- too powerful -- that it's actually driving jobs away and hurting both the economy and the workers themselves.

How come you don't mention Daimler-Chrysler in your condemnation of the unions? DC has the same union contracts that GM and Ford have. They have the same "lazy union workers" that Ford and GM have.

However, DC is making huge profits. Actually, the Daimler (Mercedes) end of the company is losing money and the Chrysler arm is keeping Mercedes alive.

How do they do it with all those lazy, overpaid union guys? Perhaps they have good designers, managers, marketeers and engineers?

If every GM car was as good as a new 'Vette or Cad, perhaps they'd be making more profit? Perhaps if they stopped making ugly, shitty cars that get bad mileage they'd sell a few more? No, it's easier to blame the unions.

One more thought about lazy union guys.
Bud, Miller and Coors make interchangeable products. Sure, there are slight differences between the three brands, but for the most part, the difference is the marketing, not the product.

Since Coors isn't unionized, it sells for much less monry than Bud and Miller, right? And Miller is a little cheaper than Bud, because theire union guys make less than Bud.

What? That's not the case? You mean that Coors makes more profit per can because they sell a product made for less labor cost for the same money and just keep the profit difference

Fucking lazy union guys.

I've worked union and non-union shops. Sure, there's some built in slop when you have a union. On the other hand, the non-union shops I've worked in are so dangerous it can be terrifying to work there. I've worked in education, IT and metal fabrication. I'm currently half owner of a family business, and we won't unionize because there's only an occasional employee. However, we treat them well, and pay them far more than prevailking wages.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Vegeta99]

The problem with Unions, IMHO, is that they concentrate power, which in turn gets corrupted. Once a factory goes union, is there an option to "opt-out"?

There probably is. Most states have a "right to work" law that says you don't HAVE to be in the union. But don't expect to be treated well.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[FrostedChaos]

I agree that it does seem like an inversion of the social order to have service workers making so much more than they are "really worth." Before you call me a capitalist pig, think of this:

In other countries with more relaxed minimum wage and labor laws, it's easy to get things repaired on the cheap. Radio is busted? Have someone fix it for you. Broken bicycle? Same thing. Talk to anyone from Mexico. Many middle-class households there have maids.

In the States, it's impossible to get a car mechanic to even look at you sideways for less than $50. And if any appliance valued less than $100 breaks, you might as well buy a new one, because it's cheaper than paying the repairman. This leads to a lot of waste, obviously. It also tends to inflate the cost of living here, so that people making $50,000/year in the States are not "really" making as much as similarly paid people in India or elsewhere in the world.

Peronsally, I think that, on the whole, the tradeoff is worth it. I don't really want to go back to the bad old days where employers could pay whatever they wanted to, and give no benefits at all. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate.

Unfortunately, employers are starting to move more and more towards automation and robotics to solve their wage problems. Think of how automated your average, garden-variety McDonald's is, for example. Half of the machinery in the back of the store is just there to save manpower... like the automated fry baskets. To return to the example of janitors, companies like Roomba are already starting to create automated vacuuming robots. In a few decades, it may well be more economical to have robots doing most of the janitorial work, supported by a small staff of humans who catch the inevitable screwups and do some touch-up work on places that robots have a hard time with.

So really, so-called "service sector" jobs are not the fortresses of security that many people would like to believe. They are also under assault in this era of technology-- it's just that they are being eliminated by robotics and automation rather than outsourcing and deskilling. So what will we do with all of the former service workers in the future? I don't know, but it will probably involve yet more expansion of the government.

Of course, we all know who funds academia, for the most part. Government grants and subsidies. Assuming you have tenure, Professor, I think you have nothing to complain about.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Error27]

You should form some kind of a "Teachers Union" to fight for better wages. I can't imagine why no one has thought of this before.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Firehed]

Nah. Most Americans don't even know what Socialism is - like Communism, it's just another dirty word.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[jimicus]

Funny, their European brands are quite capable of producing vehicles which get reasonable milage and are well designed.

I, along with many thousands of others, drive a Vauxhall Astra. It's probably one of the most popular cars on Britain's roads, and Vauxhall is owned by GM.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[contrapunctus]

There is one. I don't like it because the union looks at a science prof and lets say a health prof as being worth the same pay.
It may be elitist but oh well.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a "crazy phobia" when the union is so out of control that domestic industries can no longer compete with foreign ones. This, incidentally, is why Ford and (especially) GM are getting their asses handed to them by foreign companies: Toyota, Honda, Hyundai etc. are building factories here that employ Americans at low, non-union wages, while Ford and GM are closing factories because they're drowning in pension payments to their unionized workers.

You're a goddamned idiot. I've got friends at Mitsubishi with high school diplomas doing between 56k and 70k a year. Honda pays about the same. Sure, they're not doing 90k like some UAW folks, but "low, non-union wages"? You make it sound like they're paying twelve bucks an hour.

And for the record, we've (I work at a university) done some analysis of local Japanese manufacturing plants, and guess what: they're not far off from the same train that's hitting the US manufacturers with respect to retirement. Give it 15-20 years and you'll see.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Brit, I really cannot understand the crazy phobia (some) Americans have about unions and socialism

I am a socialist, however unions in North America serve only to protect lazy old unproductive overpaid slackers, while denying work to the eager and skilled youth.

Socialism Good. Unions Evil.

While you have suggested that some may equate socialism with capitalism, please do not equate unions with socialism.

It may be different in Europe, but in North America, unions are very damaging to the economy and the future of the growing numbers of unemployed youth.

Unions should be about collective bargaining, employee training - not protecting the old and lazy from being displaced by youth who would gladly do their jobs for less than half the pay - and actually work.

An aging population sucks.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

He's a professor not a teacher.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't think so small. Go for twins!

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[deander2]

Is socialism a dirty word, automatically equated with communism or something?

in america? yep.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's kind of interesting the way it works. Statistics about things like quality of life, infant mortality, life expectancy, etc. are usually broken down by race. It always turns out that blacks have horrible statistics as compared with whites.

But an interesting study was done by Vicente Navarro, a professor at Johns Hopkins who works on public health issues. He decided to reanalyze the statistics, separating out the factors of race and class. For example, he looked at white workers and black workers versus white executives and black executives. He discovered that much of the difference between blacks and whites was actually a class difference. If you look at poor white workers and white executives, the gap between them is enormous.

The study was obviously relevant to epidemiology and public health, so he submitted it to the major American medical journals. They all rejected it. He then sent it to the world's leading medical journal, Lancet, in Britain. They accepted it right away.

The reason is very clear. In the United States you're not allowed to talk about class differences. In fact, only two groups are allowed to be class-conscious in the United States. One of them is the business community, which is rabidly class-conscious. When you read their literature, it's all full of the danger of the masses and their rising power and how we have to defeat them. It's kind of vulgar, inverted Marxism.

The other group is the high planning sectors of the government. They talk the same way -- how we have to worry about the rising aspirations of the common man and the impoverished masses who are seeking to improve standards and harming the business climate.

So they can be class-conscious. They have a job to do. But it's extremely important to make other people, the rest of the population, believe that there is no such thing as class. We're all just equal, we're all Americans, we live in harmony, we all work together, everything is great.

Take, for example, the book Mandate for Change, put out by the Progressive Policy Institute, the Clinton think tank. It was a book you could buy at airport newsstands, part of the campaign literature describing the Clinton administration's program. It has a section on "entrepreneurial economics," which is economics that's going to avoid the pitfalls of the right and the left.

It gives up these old-fashioned liberal ideas about entitlement and welfare mothers having a right to feed their children -- that's all passé. We're not going to have any more of that stuff. We now have "enterprise economics," in which we improve investment and growth. The only people we want to help are workers and the firms in which they work.

According to this picture, we're all workers. There are firms in which we work. We would like to improve the firms in which we work, like we'd like to improve our kitchens, get a new refrigerator.

There's somebody missing from this story -- there are no managers, no bosses, no investors. They don't exist. It's just workers and the firms in which we work. All the administration's interested in is helping us folks out there.

The word entrepreneurs shows up once, I think. They're the people who assist the workers and the firms in which they work. The word profits also appears once, if I recall. I don't know how that sneaked in -- that's another dirty word, like class.

Or take the word jobs. It's now used to mean profits. So when, say, George Bush took off to Japan with Lee Iacocca and the rest of the auto executives, his slogan was "Jobs, jobs, jobs." That's what he was going for.

We know exactly how much George Bush cares about jobs. All you have to do is look at what happened during his presidency, when the number of unemployed and underemployed officially reached about seventeen million or so -- a rise of eight million during his term of office.

He was trying to create conditions for exporting jobs overseas. He continued to help out with the undermining of unions and the lowering of real wag

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[Bing Tsher E]

The thing Union Workers don't "dare" do is stand out as more productive, or ambitious. The Union Steward is looking out for people who think they can jump into a higher position by means of skill or hard work. That's what the seniority system is for, and by golly, they can learn to LIKE it.

Also, don't dare suggest any improvement that 'Management' (the 'enemy, ya know) might use to eliminate worthless positions.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[OverflowingBitBucket]

Well, the difference is we (speaking broadly here) would rather deal with a starving neighbor on a personal level through personal generosity and donations/gifts

Quite a lot of people share this worldview. However, far too many are quite content to let someone starve to death rather than go through the inconvenience of giving, especially when there is no obligation to do so. Enforcing it distributes the burden.

Could you see any government, for example, surviving solely on altruism from its constituents rather than taxes?

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[grolschie]

If so, it would've read: "I think ECS emproyee take gleat plide in hard work, even though they are get paid vely rittle in compalison to broated unionized factolies in Nolth Amelica." Oops... that wasn't very pc of me. :-P

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[drewsome]

FWIW, my dad's been a high-school teacher for over 40 years, and he makes a helluva lot more htan $40k.

I wish we paid our teachers better. I wish it was a growth industry -- it certainly would be more productive than paying Boeing to build more missiles.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[lamp540]

If you became a "college professor" in order to make money then you're an idiot.

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with a janitor making a decent salary and if YOU are not being paid enough that's a problem between YOU and your EMPLOYER. Don't blame someone in a union for your own poor situation-- you should be in a union too. You're probably just an AP somewhere so you could use one.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[lamp540]

"Ultimately, it boils down to the individual being responsible for ones own actions, having both the ability to succeed (like Bill Gates) and the possiblity of failure. You can't have one without the other. In a Union (at a factory level) or socialism/communism (a national level), a safety net is erected to prevent failure. The same mechanism also stunts success."

So are you saying that "yes it is un-american to have 40 hour work weeks, healh benefits and a safe workplace?" You're completely ignorant of, or choosing to ignore, the immense benefits to the american people that have come from unions. Also, the idea that this american capitalism, that you speak so glowingly of, doesn't erect safety nets is wrong. to paraphrase Chomsky. "There is a massive state sector in the US economy. It's called 'the military.'" The power of government is invariably used to bail out and protect those with wealth. It's government policy to take all measures to retain the extreme pyramid shaped social hierarchy. The reason that some people work long hours for little pay and some work little hours for pay that is orders of magnitude greater is not because this is the natural order of things. It's because the workers have no choice, they have been put into a situation by their bosses where they either do what they are told or they will die. Modern workers, particularly in the US, are slaves to corporations.

Unions are the way people organize. Corporations are the way capital organizes. Until corporate charters are revoked from corporations which do not support the public interest(that is why they are granted their rights and privileges in the first place) there will be a need for unions.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[contrapunctus]

If GM is going bankrupt then there is a problem.

Re:Was this article written by the Chinese?

[gkhan1]

Then you need to be in a union too. Coming from a country where everyone is in a union (Sweden), I find it absurd to hear a distinction between unionized jobs and non-unionized jobs. In the modern world, everyone should be in a union.

Unions

[tinrobot]

even though they are getting paid very little in comparison to bloated unionized factories in North America.

Not to get on too much of a rant... but we can thank unions for a lot of things... like weekends off and decent salaries. Without unions, we'd still be working seven days a week in sweatshops.

Sadly, China has no unions, so they do have sweatshops and low wages. I'd argue that China's workers would be better off if they did form unions.

(and... before everyone here starts moaning about their employers, yes, I know many of you do work very long work weeks in the tech business. I've worked for several startups myself)

Re:Unions

[pete-classic]

China is still Communist, right? So the workers control the means of production. So who the hell is the union going to fight?

-Peter

Re:Unions

[ettlz]

China is still Communist, right?

Only in name. All that "communist"/"the people's" rubbish appears to be little more than goodspeak to avert a bloody uprising. The correct term, I believe, is "oppressive wannabe-capitalist hegemony".

Re:Unions

[thelost]

hardly surprising considering the whole article reads like a paid for advertisement and actually goes into little/no detail about the manufacturing process.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

China is still Communist, right?

Wrong. China is a fascist oligarchy which is no closer to communism than America is. In fact, less so. Many workers in China's buliding industry are not paid at all until their (possibly years long) project is over, and the rural regions have been decimated by the withdrawl of all education and health services. Violent uprisings in China, by China's own figures, reached 87000 last year and have increased steadily by more than 10% per year for some time.

China is on the edge of exploding into civil war and what I think would seem strange to Americans is that when it comes the people doing the rebelling will probably be fighting to establish communism, which they've been raised to believe in because it was a good way to control them but have never experienced.

Re:Unions

[wbean]

I think it's more complicated than this. Employers respond to the environment around them. They must offer pay/working conditions thar are good enough in comparison to the other alternatives to allow them to attract employees. They must NOT offer pay/working conditions that are so good that they drive up costs to the point where the firm can't function. It's hard to generalize but most employers that I know would like to be able to offer good pay and conditions. Often they simply don't feel able - I know, this isn't universally true but it's probably more true than most people believe.

The conditions in China are vastly different from the conditions here. If an employer in China - whether on his/her own or led by a union - offered Western pay/conditions they would quickly be driven out of business. They simply couldn't compete. On the other hand, the pay/conditions that are being offered are enough better than life on the farm that millions of people flock to the new jobs every year. China has a tremendous balancing act to perform. They have to keep pay down enough to create the huge number of new jobs that they need to absorb all the people leaving the farm. At the same time they have to build imfrastructure, tackle their environmental problems and raise living conditions enough to avoid unrest. Not an enviable task. I doubt that unions would be much help at this stage.

Re:Unions

[grumling]

Actually, Unions came into the picutre after the pay scale in factories went up. We really have Henry Ford to thank for high pay in factories, mostly because he couldn't keep people in his factories until he raised the pay scale... although one could argue that the high turnover was more due to the lousy working conditions than the low pay, but the pay seemed to work. It should be pointed out that most of his employees were sons of farmers (who weren't used to factory work), and craftsmen who put a much higher emphasis on quality workmanship over production output. Ford management was much more interested in output and price. In fact, Ford (the company) wanted a poorly built vehicle so to encourage more purchases (one of the first cases of planned obsolescence).

We have Unions to thank for 8 hour work day (although it seems to have dissapeared over the past few years), bathroom breaks, and realistic expectations on production (at least in factories). Once the pay scale went up in Ford's factories, the output jumped up, since there was a better pool available. However, Ford and Wall St. expected the output to continue to increase year over year, and so the line was sped up. At one point the workers were not permitted to leave the line for any reason. This led to the famous piss cans, and ultimately to a strike, a union, and some really disturbing communist artwork.

I'm really not suprised that people look at China and see "sweatshops" while totally ignoring the poverty level in the countryside. Perhaps they would like to see China have a second revolution to democracy, just like the former USSR? Yep, that would be much better than a measured attempt to introduce capitalist reforms to a broken system. At least Mexico might be better off.

Re:Unions

[DAldredge]

Can you support those numbers or did you just make them up?

Re:Unions

[students]

More info please. If China is really on the edge of civil war, the American propaganda machine would not let the Chinese propaganda machine keep it a secret.

Re:Unions

[grumling]

Perhaps you'd like to see China end up like the former USSR, with the mafia running the show, no accounting for weapons of mass distruction, and no economy? Bad enough with 300 million... how about 1.5 billion?

Re:Unions

[unitron]

"China is on the edge of exploding into civil war and ... when it comes the people doing the rebelling will probably be fighting to establish communism..."

Which means that we will be subjected to a bunch of crooked idiots expecting us to help out on the side of the fascist old farts that have been tyrannizing them all these years.

Re:Unions

[NanoGriever]

>Also most of the workers are women, who are considered a 2nd class human in China,
>the fact that they are allowed to work at all is a big step for them.

You obviously don't know much about China and you just make stuff up.
Chinese women have been working hard for years. How and where you got
that idea is totally beyond me. May be you've mistaken China for some
countries in the middle east?

Re:Unions

[cskrat]

Based on their numbers. If 1000 employees can make 800,000 boards per month and each employee averages $30,000 per year (a salary point that would attract many US production workers) then the cost of labor per board is about $3.13 each.

While I realize that the base salary is not the same as the total cost of compensation, the situation is nowhere near as dire as even your lower estimate of $1000 per board. If you were to figure %90 labor cost in the $1000 estimate (since we are talking purely about the work conditions at ECS and not the component suppliers that they use), that would translate to $8.6 million per year per employee if current production levels were maintained.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

If these motherboards were made in the USA by union workers they would probably cost $1000 - $3000 instead of $30-$100. Would you rather pay $1000 for your whole computer or $10000?

I'd rather that complete morons like yourself not make up numbers to support their stupid positions. And you really must be a complete moron if you can't immediately recognize why a $30 motherboard made in China would not cost $1000 if it were made in the USA.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

More info please. If China is really on the edge of civil war, the American propaganda machine would not let the Chinese propaganda machine keep it a secret.

A good place to start is Antony Thomas' film "Tank Man" about the famous film of the guy who blocked the tanks' advance into Tienanmen Square.

The American propaganda machine is confused by huge amounts of money to be made out of China's slave labour. That's good for capitalism, just as it was under the Nazi's when Hitler's Germany was the only European country where US investment increased (and at the incredible rate of 48% over just a few years) so a solution has to be found which allows China to be "most favoured trading nation" but official disapproval of communism still expressed.

The solution settled on seems to be to pretend that the Chinese government "has seen the light" and is introducing capitalism. This can be painted as a victory for western values while the reality that the vast majority of China is still available for work at what might as well be zero pay can be used to make massive profits for multi-nationals who are "in" with the Oligarchs who rule it.

The new middle classes in China are shiney and bright but they are a tiny minority in a vast sea of repressed people on the edge of starvation with a life expectancy which is actually decreasing. They look good in documentaries about the upcomming Chinese Olympics and suchlike but their real purpose is to make a west-friendly face for investment and political photo-ops.

Re:Unions

[ScentCone]

Sadly, China has no unions

What delicious irony! It's still, theoretically, a communist country: the biggest, most "fair" union of them all! Everyone in China is in the union, and it's a worker's paradise. No? Well, it's never that socialism is bad, of course, only that it's not being used thoroughly enough, on enough people, especially those that have some crazy notion about better-run factories/business units deserving rewards for being... better (how counter-revolutionary!). The PRC must be slipping if things are less than paradisical for - ahem - some of their workers.

Re:Unions

[Vegeta99]

oh boohoo, 12 hour shift?

What, you think unions won't do it? Oh, ok, classroom educated. You wouldn't /really/ know.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps you'd like to see China end up like the former USSR, with the mafia running the show

The Chinese government makes the mafia look like a bunch of little girls playing with their Barbie dolls. Life for the majority of China's peasents is as bad or worse than anything the Russians have.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

> Not to get on too much of a rant... but we can thank unions for a lot of things... like weekends off and decent salaries. Without unions, we'd still be working seven days a week in sweatshops.

This is a fun story (if you're a union guy), but historically untrue.

Workers' benefits and salaries have tracked very closely to per-capita GDP, regardless of the level of union activity. There are pracctically no unions, e.g., in the southern united states, where unions enjoy far fewer legal privileges than in the north, but there are no sweatshops to be seen.

When the U.S. had a per-capita GDP similar to what China's is today, we had a large rural farmer population, lots of competition for factory jobs, and 12-hour workdays every where. (Actually, working conditions were a lot worse than this factory sounds like.)

What made it better? Economic development soaked up the excess labor supply, like is happening today in China, and then wages and benefits took off in both unionized and non-unionized industries.

Unions only accomplish two things: 1) where they have special privileges at law (which is the only case where unions can really thrive), they limit entry into the labor force, enriching the union members at the expense of the rest of the labor force, and 2) in the long run, by raising wages above market levels, they hinder economic growth.

If you doubt this, then take a look at the economic growth rates of the highly-regulated, heavily-unionized labor markets in europe, and contrast them to the lightly-regulated, un-unionized labor marrkets in the U.S. Historically, Britain, France and Germany have been far richer than most of the United States, but ever since their post-war socialist experiments kicked in, more and more states have been overtaking them. Today, only four states (Montana, Arkansas, West Virginia and Mississippi) are poorer than France, Germany and Britain, and with the U.S. growing so much faster than Europe, even these will overtake Europe in the next decade or two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_b y_GDP_per_capita_(nominal)

In the U.S., the lightly-unionized states of the south and west have the highest rates of economic growth, while the high-tax, highly-regulated, heavily-unionized states of the north and east (the "Rust Belt"), like Illinois, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, these are the ones with the slowest economic growth.

Economic growth raises standards of livings; unions merely use force (whether via the government or their own thugs) to stop competition and take what free markets create.

Re:Unions

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Perhaps they would like to see China have a second revolution to democracy, just like the former USSR?

Although I am too lazy to dig up links to the online citations - from what I have read - one of the largest causes of the economic problems in the former USSR was Wall Street & the US government's poorly conceived and even more poorly executed attempts to "jumpstart" a captalist system over there after the fall of socialism.

In extremely simplistic terms, they simply threw money at the situation without much in the way of accountability. The end result, as is always the case when accountability is not a strong requirement, was endemic corruption.

From the tone of the reports I've seen, Russia would probably be a whole lot more democratic with decently competitive free markets if the US had just left it alone to sort things out on its own after the revolution. Instead, they got the equivalent of the dot-com-bomb - tons of companies spending willy-nilly in order to "get in on the ground floor" who eventually abandonded the country to the aftermath of all that poorly spent money and political 'advising.'

Re:Unions

[Tri0de]

What I really want is a world-wide minimum wage, in American dollars; a equal playing field for all.

Re:Unions

[jimicus]

Be careful what you wish for - you might get it.

If that were to ever happen, I bet you anything you like the international minimum wage would look nothing like the minimum wage in most Western countries.

Re:Unions

[morcego]

According to the UN, that would be like US$1/day for each familly member.
As a general rule, considering not every familly member work, it seems to be something like US$100/month.
Seems too low ? Well, if you live in the USA, it is.
On many countries, it is almost middle-class (considering 2 workers in each household).

Stipulating a world-wide minimum-wage is stupid. What would the the basis for it ? American salaries ? Stupid, since cost of living in USA is very high. Maybe we could use China as a basis for minimum-wage. I'm sure whoever made the suggestion (american maybe?) would be happy.

It is very easy to propose solutions when you don't understand anything about the problem.

Re:Unions

[Anonymous Coward]

Pot. Kettle. Black. Asstard.

Re:Unions

[Threni]

> Perhaps you'd like to see China end up like the former USSR, with the mafia running the show,

Yeah, thank god in the US there's no suggestion that crooks running arms/oil/defense support are involved in...uh...starting wars.

Re:Unions

[null-sRc]

>Also most of the workers are women

where do I apply!??

Re:Unions

[pete-classic]

I have no idea where you are coming from. What in my post makes you think I wish misery on any human being? What does my post have to do with gangsters? What are you talking about?

-Peter

Re:Unions

[cowbutt]

Indeed. Far better would be to have an internationally-recognized standard of living that complements the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights; my suggestions for such a standard would be a roof over your head, access to preventative and essential healthcare, access to a balanced and nutritionally adequate diet and access to as much education as you can make effective use of.

Re:Unions

[AppyPappy]

" I'd argue that China's workers would be better off if they did form unions."

Yeah, that union might help you get a better price for your kidney when you are in that labor camp for sedition.

Scary...

[ThinkingInBinary]

All of these motherboard factory tours (there have been a few) are pretty scary. We see the really cool equipment, and get to hear the tests each piece of hardware goes through, and then we hear about how their employees do really repetitive tasks, for low wages, with tough ("military-style"), if not abusive, bosses, in an insulting environment (the "grape system"?! What are they, kindergarteners?!?!). Sure, they're efficient, and the product is relatively cheap, but do we want to support the ways these companies treat their workers, even if it's "okay" with the workers?

Re:Scary...

[seanadams.com]

Sure, they're efficient, and the product is relatively cheap, but do we want to support the ways these companies treat their workers, even if it's "okay" with the workers?

Have you considered the alternative?

Re:Scary...

[timjdot]

That's par for the course in manufacturing. Clearly the author never worked in a board plant in the USA - a few decades ago there were many. Interns and hourly Manpower workers did the repetitive tasks. The company where I worked tried automation and had a tour by Bush I - or maybe it was Reagan - about how great that was but in the end variances cannot be handled well by robots/machines and only certain tasks could be automated (wave solder, surface mount, moving parts from one line to another).
From the looks of it these are young adults very similar to the college students and part-time folks who used to do the work in the USA for about 2x minimum wage.

Assembly and manufacturing are not as glamorous as some seem to expect. A challenging QA task nonetheless. Odd to see little to no advancement over what was being done two decades ago. Just moved to a lower cost/lower net tax load locale.

TimJowers
P.S> There was no union in the plant where I worked. And, of course, the work eventually was offshored. I think the remnant now defines new processes when new products are to be run and then the bulk is done in Mexico, Tiawan, or such.

Re:Scary...

[slashkitty]

compared to what I saw with other factories in china, this one seems pretty clean and safe.

The factory where they make Disney books is much more scary.

Re:Scary...

[mattkime]

>>but do we want to support the ways these companies treat their workers, even if it's "okay" with the workers?

The success of walmart would imply a resounding "Yes!"

Re:Scary...

[vinay.ys]

and the likes of Nike and Reebok and all the great American multinationals

Re:Scary...

[Monkelectric]

Walmarts success is really the result of wage compression due to the loss of manufacturing jobs. The problem is wage compression is a self reinforcing cycle. Someone outsources, their goods are cheaper but the consumers now have less earning power to buy said goods, which puts more pressure on business to outsource. 30 years later, there are hadrly ANY manufacturing jobs.

It also puts pressure on upstream businesses. Consumers don't have the money to pay for aything but the cheapest goods/services. A buddy of mine does about the same job I do but makes 40% less. The reason? He works for Net Zero whose product costs 10$ a month -- they cant afford to pay their employees well. I work in the semiconductor industry and our products cost a fortune and at least for now are difficult to out source.

Re:Scary...

[l33t gambler]

And why isn't this innsight in more of those motherboard factory tours? As every
other consumer I have responsibility for what I buy, but it seems I am part of very few that is actually clearly aware of that every time I choose a product.

If people would spend less time on religion and more time interested in planet earth and things like these (when I say planet earth I mean everything also humans), the world might get better. Sure, 99.9% of such caring may all be rediculously futile and a waste of time, but with power comes responsibility, and in time we might get extremely effective of stopping evil companies.

Tommy Hilfiger busted again for use of slave workers in Mae Sot
http://nrk.no/programmer/tv/fbi/3296787.html
http://jooh.no/root/text/Tommy_Hilfiger/email_to_h ilfiger.txt

Maybe I should start a religion and hammer these few words into the cheep so they would think about it in their daily acts. For now I'll post the parents simple and insightful sentences here and there. Someday a company might start up and stamp their products "built in fair work conditions" and enough brainwashed people will actually buy them and the rest is history.

For now buy Intels lead-free NICs.
http://www.intel.com/network/connectivity/products /pro1000gt_desktop_adapter.htm

Some anti-idealists may say don't stress about it but don't listen to them. You are either part of the problem or part of the solution.

Re:Scary...

[Ruie]

Sure, they're efficient, and the product is relatively cheap, but do we want to support the ways these companies treat their workers, even if it's "okay" with the workers?

There is a also a practical side to this. Allowing humans to be treated like parts of a machine slows down technological development. Why bother understanding what goes wrong or developing a robot when you can get 10 humans to do the same job at a fraction of the cost ? Humans might be slower than a good robot, but their cognitive abilities cannot be matched yet (especially those of young humans with good eyes) and they don't require a precise algorithm to do their job.

Abusing cheap labor slows down progress both in technology and society.

Re:Scary...

[Sinbios]

How, exactly, are the workers being mistreated? Regular lectures? A merit system? Just because it seems scary to a Westerner doesn't mean it's scary to anybody else. In fact, the factory practices are pretty compliant with Asian values - merit and discipline. The entire Chinese education system was built around these values - every morning, we'd stand in neat rows and listen to the anthem, do morning exercises, and then get a lecture from the principal; in school if we do something good we receive a slip of paper, which could eventually be redeem for rewards. Thus, workplace practices are merely a continuation of that and perfectly normal to any Chinese person. This happens in Japanese workplaces as well.
Just because it's different from what you're used to and you can't understand it doesn't make it something horrible. People need to realize that the majority of the population in modern China don't live in shitholes or scrabble for a living by putting up with a shitty job and abuse. Assembly line jobs in China are perfectly respectable - in fact, it's the same in Canada, where I live; assembly line labourers make quite a tidy sum compared to other manual labourers. No abuse going on here, move right along.

Re:Scary...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hear, Hear.

Mod parent up.

Slanted?

[Skuld-Chan]

I think ECS' employees take great pride in their hard work, even though they are getting paid very little in comparison to bloated unionized factories in North America.

They make it sound like a good thing! Unions get little credit (even in China) for the 40 hour work week, paid time off, or time off at all.

Re:Slanted?

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to see it from the other side too. At United Parcel Service I saw firsthand how evil both sides are. I remember managers telling supervisors to do things that were just plain wrong. For example, packages would move down a conveyor belt at a particular speed. The guys at the end of the belt would need to wait an extra 3-5 minutes before packages started arriving to be loaded. For this reason, supervisors were told to stagger the start times of the back employees 5-10 minutes later to save a few dollars each day. This was so patently ridiculous but it was policy. Policy that was not always told to the employees. The reasoning was that they needed to be in their work area before start time and be prepared to load when packages arrived. In other words, work for free setting up for the first ten minutes because that's our policy.

How about the union (Teamsters)? I visited a facility once dressed in a suit and tie (I was in IT). My job was to show employees how to work a bar code scanner for a new tracking system. As I was talking to the employee two large guys (also in suits) arrived and stood on either side of me. I picked up a Next Day Air letter to show how to scan (I thought they were managers checking my training procedure). Nope, soon as I touched the letter one guy shouts out, "What the fuck you doing? You're not supposed to touch packages." He tells me that he can shut down the entire facility in a second and that I shouldn't be touching packages. He's shouting two inches from my face. At this point the facility manager comes by and starts talking with the union guys to smooth things over.

Management and unions (at least the ones at UPS) are just a bunch of pricks looking for money. They're both evil. The problem is that you let one group get the upper hand and it may be even worse (look at the current political parties in the US for a similar thing).

Re:Slanted?

[loraksus]

To say nothing of workplace health and safety standards. I'll put money down that 25%+ of those employees will have some kind of cancer before they turn 50 and 40% will be dead before they turn 60. Some of the chemicals used are pretty nasty shit.
The "company store / housing" thing is also popular in China - the factory mandates that you live in their dorms and eat their food - even they are overpriced (hundreds of percent) and substandard. The article claims that the housing is "included" although you can take that a couple different ways.

Re:Slanted?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, but that's obvious bullshit.

Re:Slanted?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope.. The management story is from the Ft. Lauderdale facility in 1998. The Teamsters story is from the Naples, FL facility around 1999. For obvious reasons I can't print my name but if you're the inquisitive sort you can research it yourself.

Re:Slanted?

[Skuld-Chan]

Teamsters are certianly an exception. They've done little to help the cause of labour in the past.

However - for every union abuse I can find 10 management abuses.

Re:Slanted?

[KarmaMB84]

They were also pretty popular with the coal companies in the United States...

Re:Slanted?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unions get little credit (even in China) for the 40 hour work week, paid time off, or time off at all.

That's because the 40-hour work week is due to Henry Ford, not to "unions". He introduced it to improve worker efficiency.

Re:Slanted?

[batkiwi]

I worked for UPS for about 9 months after highschool, during Uni. On my start day, we filled out our HR paperwork and then were walked about 10 meters offsite to a trailer (like the ones used at schools with too many students) and sat down at desks to learn about "the teamsters." Two HUGE guys (6'2", 250lb type guys) come in to inform us about our option to join the union. The speech was (paraphrased from memory 10 years ago):

"We're your local union reps. You sign these papers and we automatically deduct your union fees from your wages. Does anyone not want to join the union? [pause] Good."

Now there was nothing DIRECTLY threatening, but as an 18 year old I wasn't about to raise my hand and point out that I'd not like to join the union...

I fully believe his story.

Women at PCB factory

[ingo23]

If you're wondering why it seems that these motherboard companies only hire women... well... let's just say things are different in China.

Let's just say that women tend to be more accurate and concentrate better on this kind of jobs.

Oh, wait, that means that women can do some jobs better than men? Preposterous!

Re:Women at PCB factory

[ettlz]

In the recent iSweatShop ruckus, it was suggested that women make the iPods as they are less likely to walf off with them.

Re:Women at PCB factory

[EMacAonghusa]

In my experience these assembly areas are quite mixed sex. Plus I don't think anyone has the chance to walk off with one, security is extremely tight in these sort of places (metal detectors etc), very hard to get past security with anything (I know the company who makes iPod).

What unions are getting...

[Illbay]

...is much, much smaller.

Re:What unions are getting...

[mattkime]

Unions are traditionally strong in manufacturing jobs which have been moving overseas.

(which isn't to say that unions don't have other problems)

Re:What unions are getting...

[Illbay]

True, but even those large unionized labor sectors, such as construction, that have traditionally been union strongholds--and which jobs are GROWING in number, not "moving overseas--union strength is paltry compared to what it was.

The primary reason is, construction workers finally got wise to the free market, and stopped believing the union hype. They figured "hey, I can still make a pretty good living, AND I don't have to fork over a significant percentage of what I make in union dues."

The only area where union membership is GROWING is government. More government workers are unionized, as a percentage of the government payroll, today than twenty years ago.

Think about that the next time you hear some bureaucrat whining about a threatened "government shutdown."

ECS at Frys

[Anonymous Coward]

I work a Fry's Electronics. The rurmor at my store is is that ECS is owned by Fry's. I have never seen or heard anything to validate or disprove that, so take it with a grain of salt.
Anywho, regardless of ownership, ECS products are the favorite things to sell at Fry's. From the ECS motherboards to their Great Quality branded computers and notebooks.

As an employee in the service department (and thus, responisble for repairing computers when they fail) I can tell you the anything made by ECS is complete dirt. The GQ computers are not too bad, but I have never seen so many DOA motherboards in my life. We had a customer buy a mobo/cpu combo last week and his board was DOA. We ended up going though SIX (yes "6") more boards before we found one that would actually work.

DO NOT BUY ECS PRODUCTS.

Re:ECS at Frys

[MsGeek]

Ex-Fry's worker over here. I doubt Fry's owns ECS. They're too cheap to do something like buy out a supplier.

ECS stuff is CRAP though. Absolute fsckn crap. As well as ECS, "Great Quality" and PC Chips, stay away from anything labeled Amptron. Same company. Same "Great Quality" meaning none.

Re:ECS at Frys

[loraksus]

We ended up going though SIX (yes "6") more boards before we found one that would actually work.

That's not really limited to ECS though - the rule for frys is that if you build a whole system, you're going back at least once to change a dead part. A good chunk of the shit on your shelf is defective and the return drones keep on tossing broken shit back on the shelf with those fucking stickers.

There is a reason people call the store "Fry'd"

BTW, "Great Quality" is an awesome name for quite possibly the worst quality products in computing history. Their CD-R's are especially great.

Re:ECS at Frys

[StarWreck]

I used to work at Fry's in Georgia. What Fry's did you work at?

Fry's dosen't own ECS, ECS is partly owned by someone who also partly owns Fry's.

Fry's is owned by the 2 founding brothers, someone I kept hearing referred to as "the woman", and possibly a few other investors. You cannot buy stock in Fry's.

Its pretty funny that you said GQ computers are not too bad in the sentence after you said anything made by ECS is complete dirt. Every GQ that Fry's carries uses an ECS motherboard. It is true that there are a lot of bad ECS products but there are a select few that I rarely saw problems with. You just have to do research ahead of time to find out which one or two in the store is decent.

At least ECS dosen't melt and then catch on fire like Airlink does.

Re:ECS at Frys

[smclean]

And Fry's pushes the ECS boards pretty hard too. I've bought several CPU/Motherboard combos from Fry's and the motherboard is always guess who.. ECS. Every time I think, well the CPU costs $180 on its own so for $200 I can get the motherboard and it's worth the risk if its a bad board. And guess what? Every time the motherboard has gone right in the garbage after a week or two. ECS motherboards, even when working, have always been extremely bafflingly unstable. I've replaced every one I've bought with MSI and Soyo and the landfill has a couple more motherboards. In my experience they usually are unstable for a couple months, then after 4 or 5 months, die completely.

An article about the quality assurance and manfacturing procedures of ECS boards in China makes me laugh. I picture a dirty sawdust floor with drunken laborers mashing together boards with a tack hammer, a 50 cent cigarette lighter, and a spool of burnt solder.

Re:ECS at Frys

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with ECS? Is it poor build quality that results in frequent RMAs to the end-user?

Reason I'm asking, is I had an ECS board once (K7S5A, with an Athlon XP 1800+) and it was a great board. I never had a single problem with it, and it was a welcome change of pace from the Via-based board I had before that (I think it was an Asus). With that Via board, I had all kinds of problems with my Soundblaster and TNT2. Driver upgrade after driver upgrade, MONTHS later I think it was finally resolved. The SiS chipset on the ECS was wonderfully stable.

Re:ECS at Frys

[Lord Kano]

I agree that Amptron is shit. Pure unadulterated moist steaming dung. I have had mixed results with ECS. When I upgraded from a K62-450 to an Athlon XP 1800+, I got an ECS K7S5A and that board worked fine for over three years. It was a little flaky with memory and video card combinations, but it worked fine. Out of the blue the board died. One day the board wouldn't post and the machine wouldn't start. I took that as an opportunity to upgrade I got an XP 2800+ and an ECS N2U400A. That board was sweet. NForce 2 Ultra chipset and fast as ever. That board still works like a champ more than two years later. I have since upgraded to an Athlon 64, but that N2U400A is now in my linux system.

I'm willing to give ECS another chance. The K7S5A that died on me did last a good while and I knew several people who had them and they all had mixed results as well. My next processor upgrade is likely to be a Pentium D and ECS boards for those are pretty reasonable. When I make the purchase, if ECS boards are a part of the best deal I can find, I'll get one and that board will determine if I ever purchase another one of their boards.

LK

Re:ECS at Frys

[LiquidRaptor]

I'd be careful when you say they won't buy out a supplier, they bought out a friggin BANK just to do a frys instore credit card.

Re:ECS at Frys

[StarWreck]

You got bad luck with laptops. My 10 year old IBM Thinkpad still works, my 5 year old IBM Thinkpad has been left on 24/7 hooked up to my KVM switch for 3 years now, and my brand new IBM Thinkpad (Centrino) is faster than my desktop! I can't wait to buy my next IBM Thinkpad, maybe with the new Core 2 Duo (Conroe Core).

... whats that you say? Lenovo? WHAT?!?! *starts to cry*

Re:ECS at Frys

[dohcrx]

I've heard bad things about ECS boards from Fry's, but not to the extent that TigerDirect screws us on MSI boards (many more D.O.A.)

I've seen my share of dead ECS boards in OEM machines, but i've seen more MSI boards purchased new at retail come D.O.A. from Tiger than ECS from Fry's.

My choice of boards is due to the need for almost immediate replacement where I am located. We offer MB install in a very competetive time frame and have to commit to that. This results in boards coming from where they need to since we get requests for a lot of 462 stuff (unless the customer wants quality, which is uncommen if they are coming to us with a 462 system they anticipated to be junk). I've had good experience wiht MSI on most intel stuff, but for AMD they suck donkey bllz. We try to order ahead of time, but our focus is not on 462. It's frustrating to work with components that are not working functionally.

I understand 462 isn't AMD's focus, but the lack of support as far as hardware is frustrating. It sure looks like they are putting out boards just to appease us until 462 is covered in dust. Those of us waiting for K9, K10, K11 want AMD to give us some faith...

Re:ECS at Frys

[draziw]

I had/have that same board CPU combo. Only reason it isn't used anymore is that I got a newer MSI board (nforce4) when I when to a 3000 (XP64 bit running 1800 native).

Re:ECS at Frys

[Loki_1929]

"At least ECS dosen't melt and then catch on fire"

Au contraire; the company I work for, when we did some retail business, sold a computer with an ECS mainboard (K7SEM maybe?) to someone just before Christmas. Just after Christmas, they brought it back complaining that it didn't turn on anymore and they smelled something 'funny' from it. When we opened it up, the power supply connector was fused to the mainboard connector. I saw another ECS board where the rear USB connector that was included with the board was miswired. Result? When the machine was powered on, the USB cable literally went up in flames.

We made the decision to switch to Asus and MSI shortly thereafter, and we haven't looked back since.

Re:ECS at Frys

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought an ECS board at Fry's while back. A combo with an AMD Athlon 3800+ X2. It was $20 cheaper with the board than the CPU alone on pricewatch.com. Went through 2 DOA boards, then on the third, just decided to not even bother and buy an Abit board.

Funny thing is that the Fry's people told me that they get HUGE returns on ECS boards because ECS doesn't really test their boards out of factory. I was explicitly recommended to buy a different board. To be fair, at $20 discount off of the current going rate, I can't really complain.

What is the main difference between Abit and ECS? Japanese versus Chinese. The Japanese are a thorough and technical lot who (even though they have been going through some economic hard times) have a culture that breeds engineers and processes that are equivalent to that of the Germans, but with even less regard for nature, ethics or Human life.

To recap: You want to buy a shiny, reliable, high-quality gadget? Buy Japanese. No contest.

You want a low-cost knockoff? Buy from the country that spawned Fake Eggs: http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlFilePath=j ournals/ijto/vol2n1/eggs.xml

Re:ECS at Frys

[PayPaI]

I've purchased several ECS boards/cpu combos from frys and never had a problem. I'm currently running an nFORCE4-A939 board with a A64 3500+ from frys and a GF6600GT from newegg, been running for about 8 months, zero problems. I have a sempron64 2800 in a cheap ECS board (from frys, forget the name, it's SIS chipset) running FC4 as a file server/CS server, again zero issues. A while back I picked up a K7S5A from newegg along with an AXP 1700+, had no problems with it until I put in a known bad CPU which fried the board. I wouldn't touch the GQ computers, but I buy GQ media (usually rebranded sony!) and maybe have 1 out of 200 fail. This is both CD and DVD media, and I burn at the highest speed I can (40x and 16x respectively). I also buy airlink network equipment (from frys), mainly gigabit switches and NIC's, and while the wireless routers are pretty bad the rest of the equipment has been solid.
Everyone says that frys is bad, but I've been shopping there for probably over 10 years, and as long as you follow the rules you can get good stuff for good prices.

• Assume the clerks are clueless about whatever you are looking for (unless you need something from the cage or need to check the price on something don't talk to them)
• Double check the items they pull from the cage
• Insist on brand new equipment (nothing with the sticker that say's it has been returned, unless it's something like a cable or similar where it doesn't matter)
• Read their ads here (san jose) and, if you can, check the PLU# at outpost.com for more info before you go to the store

This may seem like more work than it's worth, but you can frequently get stuff well below normal prices. CPU/Mobo combos are particularly cheap, while other items (especially video cards) are usually overpriced.

Re:ECS at Frys

[Anonymous Coward]

wtf

eggs are one of the cheapest foods to buy

except for ramen noodles

Re:ECS at Frys

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Don't forget that ECS is known for the faked cache, and I think faked chipsets. Many ECS boards had no cache and the BIOS simply reported a certain fixed cache size, depending on what their buyers wanted. I think they had fake chipsets, using some generic chipset but used stickers on the chips to give the impression they were made by a better known chip maker.

I have one ECS part, a PC/Chips TV tuner / video captuer card. It works fine, but the shipped drivers were worthless and I had somehow managed to download functional drivers. Shortly afterward, their site didn't even acknowledge the fact they ever made such a device in the sales or promotional site or in the driver download page, so I'm thankful I kept a copy of that driver download.

Re:ECS at Frys

[booch]

When I worked at CompUSA in 1994, ECS motherboards were the best we had available. All the techs used them in our own PCs.

I think perhaps the reason you think ECS is crap is that you're dealing with OEM pieces. We had the same thing when we switched to Acer back in the day. (Before that, we used various brands, including ECS.) If you bought Acer systems, they'd have a failure rate of maybe 5%. But the Acer-made OEM boards in the CompUSA-branded systems failed like 15-20% of the time. It was clear that they had much more stringient QA of their own stuff than the un-branded OEM junk.

Re:ECS at Frys

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, I bought a GQ computer ($300, Sempron 2800+) 6 months ago that used an ASRock motherboard.

ECS Extreme

[llZENll]

"Once packaged, random boards are put through shock tests to make sure their lot will survive the shipping process. The number of boards that go through this testing procedure is higher for high end products such as ECS' "EXTREME" lineup."

So if you buy an EXTREME board and get pissed at your computer, you can throw it a little harder against the wall. Cool!

Cheap labor makes it all go

[Animats]

Here's are pictures from a US manufacturer of PC boards. Notice how it's done. No long row of women putting in components; it's one guy standing around watching the machines do the work. Automated insertion machines put in the components, and transfer conveyors connect the machines. That's the way it should be.

Only the really low wages of China make labor-intensive manual assembly feasible. Even in Mexico, you'd use automated assembly. Assembly in Japan has been automated for decades. If the US imposed import duties on very-low-wage countries that equalized wage costs to even $1/hour, this excessive "offshoring" would stop.

Re:Cheap labor makes it all go

[Anonymous Coward]

No robots because human labor is still cheaper in China. Plain economic reason.

Re:Cheap labor makes it all go

[LiquidCoooled]

Its not just cheap labour, its also flexibility.

Whilst its possible to get all robotic assembly lines, in a factory with a number of varying products its simpler to train a human workforce than to maintain and program a line of robots to do the same (lots of short runs of x thousand units versus a factory built from the ground up with a certain product range)

Re:Cheap labor makes it all go

[FooAtWFU]

If the US imposed import duties on very-low-wage countries that equalized wage costs to even $1/hour, this excessive "offshoring" would stop.

Is that a good thing? If the machines do most of the work, that means some human isn't getting paid for the work. Don't we want to pay people? Especially the poorest sorts of people in the world? Why aren't we thanking these manufacturers for giving these workers jobs, which are apparently better than any of the other opportunities which are available to them? I know it's not the Coziest Job In the World, but should they have to offer All the Luxuries of the West and a 2-week vacation to Hawaii every year before hiring anyone? Do you really think these people would be Amazingly Better Off if they were unemployed instead?

Re:Cheap labor makes it all go

[dogbowl]

A luddite on Slashdot?!? Now I've seen everything.

Re:Cheap labor makes it all go

[HardCase]

Through hole components can only be mechanically placed if the pick and place machine can physically process them. Not everything fits in a pick and place machine. The company I work for used to own a large contract manufacturing business. The answer to the problem of components that wouldn't fit the pick and place machines was easy - they didn't take the contract. The only case that I know of in which they did take the contract was to produce a motherboard that the company used in its own computer, and probably only because it would have been a little embarassing to contract out our motherboard to a third party. But they didn't make many of them - too bad, because at the time, it was the highest performance PC you could buy.

-h-

Re:Cheap labor makes it all go

[quo_vadis]

Those are PCB's with mostly SMD or throughole components. A motherboard has larger components that cant always be mounted with a robotic arm (try the IO ports, or the processor socket).

Re:Cheap labor makes it all go

[ScrewMaster]

It happens. Sometimes the filters don't work and one of them slips by.

Re:Cheap labor makes it all go

[Anonymous Coward]

If the machines do most of the work, that means some human isn't getting paid for the work. Don't we want to pay people? Especially the poorest sorts of people in the world?

As a citizen of the US, the poor of third world nations is not my concern. I'd rather have more plants here in the US with decently paid robotics techs and CNC programmers thus pulling some of our own into the middle class than subsidize a country who will potentially be our foe when the showdown over Taiwan comes along.

I know it's not the Coziest Job In the World, but should they have to offer All the Luxuries of the West and a 2-week vacation to Hawaii every year before hiring anyone?

The working class in the West all get two week vacations to Hawaii? I want some of what you're smoking!

Do you really think these people would be Amazingly Better Off if they were unemployed instead?

Don't know, and don't care.

conditions are improving

[wfberg]

From what I've heard working conditions in China are vastly improving.

bad boards

[cdn-programmer]

bad boards - how to recognise and avoid them

http://www.redhill.net.au/b/b-bad.html

This section, however, is not about the normal variation in quality and reliability between typical motherboards. It is about plain old-fashioned greed, and the cheap, shonky boards that sometimes result from it. Here then, is a short gallery of the cheap, the nasty, and the outright fraudulent.

To quote for the Red Hill web page:

PC Chips fake cache 486

Let's begin with the most famous of them all: the fake cache 486 boards that PC Chips produced in the mid-Nineties.

---------------

From the PCCHIPS website we find: http://www.pcchips.com.tw/PCCWeb/AboutCOMPANY/Abou tCOMPANY.aspx?MenuID=8&LanID=2

PCCHIPS has been a leading supplier of motherboards and PC peripherals since 1994. We are committed to provide products of superior value and exemplary customer service to our customers worldwide.

http://www.pcchips.com.tw/PCCWeb/Legal.aspx?MenuID =8&LanID=2

The materials ("Materials") contained in this web site are provided by Elitegroup Computer Systems Co., Ltd. ("ECS") ...

I think these quotes speak for themselves.

Re:bad boards

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, the PC Chips Lottery. Guy I knew got me to upgrade his machine once, however he needed the BIOS flashed to take the new CPU. (He was running an old Pentium back in the days of the P3, and had gotten hold of a 233MHz chip that someone was going to junk.) I remember so much time swearing at the board and searching through the Lottery in order to find the stuff I needed to make it take the higher chip speed.

Well, actually, eventually I ended up at the lottery. My first couple of searches just told me that the BIOS in question was a pirated chip, and that a huge list of low-end manufacturers had used it.

God, that was hell. Well, at least I know to stay away from ECS as well now.

Worker's Paradise

[Doc Ruby]

The last page has the completely naive part about working conditions. The reviewer, Carl Nelson, has no way to know whether the redfaced employee was just embarassed at their bad day report being photographed, or whether there are severe punishments. China's mafia government executes people for software/content piracy, among other fascist means of keeping people in line with their "discipline". They routinely torture people for interfering with official government policy.

(FWIW, I'm not comparing China to the US or elsewhere, where there is also too much torture and executions, for whatever reason. There is no relativism that justifies torturing people, certainly not over economics.)

The first page has the claim that "Pretty soon every computer you buy is going to have an ECS motherboard in it!" Although that's probably just wrong, it shows how naive is the reviewer about the real world outside motherboard specs. If it were true, I'd be worried about a single company, a single factory (which can halt or be destroyed) representing a single point of failure for every computer in the world, or even (especially) in the US.

That article is about as analytical as a videogame review. That is, not at all, after being bought off by a free trip to the factory where their toys get made.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[tksh]

You got any reference to back up your claim that the Chinese government excutes peopel for IP piracy?

Re:Worker's Paradise

[Anonymous Coward]

Pfft, single point of failure... ECS would never limit themselves to just one!

Re:Worker's Paradise

[yorugua]

Well, this just in... if things like the following turn out to be true, then you can pretty much say things got a little bit out of hand in there (then again, it just might be propaganda or some weird "coma" re-run): http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-4-26/40842.htm l

From TFA:

Sky TV aired a report last week that confirms important claims The Epoch Times has made in its own investigations into organ harvesting in China.

This report verifies that:

* organs for transplantation are very plentiful in China;

* they are available on demand;

* the organs are supplied from prisoners;

* the prisoners are killed after they are found to match a patient who is awaiting a donor organ.

Reporter Dominic Waghorn and at least one other staff member from Sky TV visited the Orient Organ Transplantation Center in Beijing with a hidden camera, posing as someone whose father needed a liver.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[Doc Ruby]

Yes.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[Doc Ruby]

On the upside, maybe China will improve worker and environmental conditions, at least in prisons, so as not to lower the quality of the organs they're reselling.

That country is sick. And the world that props it up with "economic expansion" hoping to feed off its bottomless greed is sick, too.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[Anonymous Coward]

So you choose to deny the poeple who actually visited China and resort to google search. That is some real sick logic.

Re:Worker's Paradise

[Doc Ruby]

You choose to deny the quote of a named Chinese government source for executing pirates, and the thousands of citations of Chinese torture, in favor of a fanboy who demonstrated their tunnelvision.

"Google search" is somehow not credible when it returns thousands of independent documents for a simple, clear, 2-word search of the exact topic.

You're an Anonymous fool Coward.

Just like in America

[quokkapox]

Only the really low wages of China make labor-intensive manual assembly feasible.

It's great here in America, we have these "Wal*Mart" stores everywhere... the "employees" are automated here too. When they wear out (or get sick), new ones automatically sign up to take their place. You don't have to worry about repairing the broken employees (i.e. health care); there's a constant supply of new ones. I'm not sure what happens to the worn-out ones; I think the government has some sort of program for recycling them.

They stock the shelves better than robots could (usually), and some of them can even answer natural language queries (in english and spanish) about the location of inventory.

Re:Just like in America

[Anonymous Coward]

moral equivalence games = the last refuge of someone who can't come up with real arguments

(not that anyone expects better from the /. crowd)

Re:Just like in America

[Sponge Bath]

I think the government has some sort of program for recycling them.

Tuesday is Soylent Green day...

What we take for granted thanks to automation

[jftitan]

Lets take a look at population... China has a much larger population than the US. China also has a higher unemployment/poverty level than the USA does.

I see the assembly line being filed with workers being paid low wages is better than 1/16th that because a assembly machine could replace all those jobs. Then that would increase the poverty/unemployment levels all over China. We have to realize in the US, we take automated systems for granted, we expect our 'stuff' to be made faster, cheaper, and more reliable. We pay more for equipment to perform those repetitive tasks so that we don't have to have people doing those tasks, and end up creating duds. However, thanks to automation, we lose jobs.

Again, China may have a 'militant' working conditions, low pay, and poor living conditions. But if China was to go completely automated, then what will their population do? The USA can get away with this because we have employment programs, and social networking for skilled people. People in the US have no problem in getting work (we tend to be lazy about it though) But China doesn't. People who live in poverty will always live in poverty, unless someone within the family breaks themselves in order to raise themselves up a notch in the social level.

DISCLAIMER(All of this is my point of view of how the world works... none of this is actual investigation. I know plenty of people in China through ICQ, or IRC, and most of my experiences are 1st/2nd hand stories.)/DISCLAIMER

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

You pulled those numbers out of thin air.

[Anonymous Coward]

How much labor do you think goes into a motherboard? It's measured in minutes even in China where labor is very cheap. Did you notice the pick and place robots? Those would be the machines being fed with reels of components. If you had visions of workers hand soldering components onto boards; well sorry to disappoint you.

There are other reasons besides wages that the Chinese can manufacture cheaper than we can and they mostly have to do with them being better capitalists. The tax situation is actually better there than it is here! As noted in the article, the Chinese can make a point of cutting out a bunch of red tape if they want to.

ECS Everywhere?

[Anonymous Coward]

"When GOLDEN ELITE is finally finished, they expect to be making over 2.5 million motherboards a month! Pretty soon every computer you buy is going to have an ECS motherboard in it!"

I hope that won't come true. I don't like buyin ECS because of the bad experiences I've had with them. But now... Those employees are working for raisins?

Inaccurate topic..

[greylion3]

..It should have been "Slapping a motherboard together and kicking it out the door, with little or no QA".
I have seen a good deal of dead or faulty mobo's from ECS (while fixing computers for students) - I'm glad I never bought one.

Been there, seen that

[EMacAonghusa]

I've been to some of those factories in Shenzhen, been down around the manufacturing lines too. So here's a few general observations based on my own experiences - First thing that struck me is that this guy managed to get photos! The places I visited even our mobile phones were taken from us before we entered the manufacturing area, we'd be in deep shit with security if we pulled out a camera to take pictures. You'll also notice pictures of products there ... majour security breech in my opinion! - Secondly look what they're making, look at the cleanliness of the place. It's the reason many western countries are in trouble ... because in China they have the skills to make high-end products and they can do it cheaper and faster than the rest of us. Plus they are very highly motivated and their entire philospoy seems to be to get as much work from everywhere as they can, even if it means making a loss ... anything to take the work from us. That's why everything from the Playstation to mobile phones to the iPod is produced in China. - About working conditions ... China is one place you do NOT want to work. Workers do seem to be treated fairly well however they are not paid much, if they are not on specific shifts then they will work VERY long hours, even through holidays and very often through the whole weekend. Many of the places they live are really shit by western standards. Also, the working environment itself is often cramped. Much of the work is manual and there is little or no variation to it, so it's likely to make you brain dead after a while. Another thing that stinks is that you'll often find employees from Taiwan working there .. they will always be on a higher salary than the local Chinese, even if they are doing the very same job. Nice people though, they put up with a lot of shit.

Re:Been there, seen that

[Anonymous Coward]

My Playstation 2 says "Made in Japan" right on the back. Yes, I looked back when I bought it.

I dislike Sony as much as any tech guy (root kits) who is also a home-audio/video guy (crappy displays, processors, amps, and sources) possibly can, but I'll credit them when they deserve it :).

Re:Been there, seen that

[EMacAonghusa]

I know for a fact that some (many) PS3 parts are made in China. But like all of these products, parts are supplied from many many countries.

component insertion

[MADnificent]

In western plants, women would be chosen for fine labour too. Like the insertion of the small components on the mainboard. They are quicker with their smaller hands, so they work more efficiently.

Re:component insertion

[Anonymous Coward]

Strange, I choose women for large component insertion.

Go live in China then...

[zarozarozaro]

>I think ECS' employees take great pride in their hard work, even though they are getting paid very little in comparison to bloated unionized factories in North America.

If you don't like our bloated unions then go live in China where they don't have any. I'm sure you would prefer living in poverty like most Chinese people.

Re:Go live in China then...

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, when I read this I kinda thought about that. Sometimes China is wonderful, this factory a work oriented environment where you can actually have pride in what you do and it would mean something. Remember reading about the dormatories? This company takes care of you, and I wish American companies would do that too. So what if you get paid poorly by another country's standards? In China, you don't need much to get by.

That said, I will admit this article was written to please everyone, there are things going on in China that no one sees, or wants to see...

Re:Go live in China then...

[zarozarozaro]

Maybe you missed my point. Unions have gotten a really bad rep in this country after being villified by monied interests. Unions are good for working conditions. Happy workers make better products. Heartless capitalists will always try to bust unions with this sort of article. Look how happy the workers are, look how hard they choose to work. Bullshit! How about posting this crap under an account, A.C.?

Huh?

[Vegeta99]

I think I now get why China is so much cheaper.

Look at the picture of the woman on page three. SHE'S WEARING FLIP FLOPS.

If OSHA saw that here, someone would be paying bigtime! Morons.

Re:Huh?

[Vegeta99]

Oh, and while I'm defending my country, you don't /need/ a goddamn "militaty-like lecture" in a 3-shift factory. I'm working in one for a summer job, and my day starts off "Hey, what's up. What machines am I running today?" and I CERTAINLY don't have to work in single-file lines.

Union Mafia bastards!

[mobby_6kl]

Since everyone else here decided to skip all the boring talk about the technology involved and jump right into a flamewar, I hereby submit my contribution.

What are your sources?

[mr_stinky_britches]

Can you provide references citing your claims about executing people for piracy, and torturing?

Your off-the-cuff claims and lack of cited references leads me to believe you have no idea what you are talking about..

Please prove me wrong, I hope you can..

Thanks

Re:What are your sources?

[Doc Ruby]

"When we find (piracy rings), we confiscate the products and the equipment they use to make them and turn to execute the persons or organizations involved," said the Waigaoqiao Free Trade Zone's Jian."

Chinese torture is very well documented. Your inability to believe it when referenced in my simple, detailed post, and your failure to just google for details leads me to believe that you are either just in denial of Chinese tyranny, willfully ignorant, or just as naive as the reviewer I posted about.

I would have hoped I couldn't prove you wrong, that China doesn't execute pirates or torture people.

Re:What are your sources?

[cf18]

A google search link? So you admit that you are just full of shit about killing pirates.

Re:What are your sources?

[Doc Ruby]

I linked to a Chinese official stating how they torture pirates, quoted on CNet news, as I quoted.

For torture, I just linked to a Google search for (china torture) that returns thousands of documents, because, as I said, it's so well documented.

Your asinine comment proves that you are a fucking asshole bent on denying China's execution of software pirates and torture, even when everything but fire a couple of neurons at the evidence before you is done for you. You stupid shit.

Re:What are your sources?

[Fulcrum of Evil]

Go check it out - China has some 68 capital crimes, among them Piracy. They admit to killing some 1300 people a year, although the number is likely closer to 10,000. Yeah, they kill pirates.

Re:What are your sources?

[cf18]

WTF? Damn next time you post actually content, don't italic them. My eye just treated the part with real link as a quote and skipped them. Still, it was just an official making threats to organized crime type. The P2P scene in China is still growing. In piracy related crime, this is about the worst case that I know about: 12 years prison for hosting pr0n: http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20050514_1.htm

Re:What are your sources?

[Doc Ruby]

Every single sentence you just posted has at least one error in it. And I'm not responsible for your inability to read. Or your inability to accept the facts when presented to you.

If you're that unable to use cited quotes directly supporting such an important point, I really don't care what you think.

Re:What are your sources?

[cf18]

Yes you are right I mis-read your second post. I should apologise for calling you name. Still I personally don't put much weight on what a low level ChiCom offical says, positive or negative. They have a habit of telling lies and ignoring their own laws.

What a waste

[agent0range_]

A year later, 2.5 million ECS motherboards will be in dumpsters around the world. Not because they are garbage, per se, but because they are "obsolete." Doesn't anyone stop and think about the expense (to this planet) of all these companies making all this crap?

Re:What a waste

[Anonymous Coward]

What expense to the planet? Funny little talking monkeys dig up rocks out of the ground, funny little talking monkeys put different-shaped rocks back into the ground. The earth doesn't give a crap. We do, though we probably shouldn't. The we're-running-out-of-places-to-put-our-trash scare is very early-90s; most people have caught on that it wasn't true by now.

Disclaimer: I'm a leftie (anarcho-socialist, really) and care about our environment, but I think we should expend our enviro-efforts on battles that aen't ill-founded and unnecessary.
  (Hey, my captcha was "anarchy", how cool is that?)

Evidence please

[AtomicBomb]

China's mafia government executes people for software/content piracy

Please provide any evidence to support this. FUD does not help a single bit.

Re:Evidence please

[Doc Ruby]

China executes SW pirates.

Fear, uncertainty and doubt of China's mafia government is healthy, because it's scary, and they have a great deal of power over us.

Union bashing scab...

[gorehog]

Some people may question the working conditions in China. Well, there's a lot to question about human rights in China, but I won't get into that rant here. I can say from what I've seen, that the employees at ECS are efficient and hard working, but I don't think they are put through abuse.

Followed by...

Employees can work an 8 hour shift if they want, but most opt to work a full 12 hour overtime shift.

Ever try working 5,6, or 7 12-hour shifts in one week? That's 60-82 hours in one week. Sevceral weeks in a row? And thats not considered abuse? What am I supposed to call it? Opportunity?

And then there's this tidbit...

There are several benefits and bonuses available for those who perform well, and housing is provided as part of their salary.

I'll take for granted that the reward system is voluntary by the employer so as to keep the workers "motivated" and "guessing" about what their work is actually "worth". I am also sure that the quality of housing is not in line with that of an American Union worker who puts in a 60-82 hour workweek. And, I'll bet that the housing cost is figured in as part of their pay. We used to do this to coal miners in the USA, where they would go live in a house they rented from the company they worked for and bought their groceries at the company store. It's one of the reasons that Appalachia is so isolated from the rest of the USA culturally. Because the coal mines were in such remote places they had no other opportunities and as a result got locked into a cycle of employed poverty for generation after generation.

And finally, I live in Poughkeepsie NY. Right near the heart of traditional IBM hq. We have chip fabrication ALL OVER this region with NO UNIONS involved. Where are the bloated union electronics factories he speaks of?

Re:Union bashing scab...

[Anonymous Coward]

And finally, I live in Poughkeepsie NY. Right near the heart of traditional IBM hq. We have chip fabrication ALL OVER this region with NO UNIONS involved. Where are the bloated union electronics factories he speaks of?

You exaggerate too much. I work for IBM in Poughkeepsie, and the Alliance people are outside the cafeteria at least once a month trying to recruit people.

Re:Union bashing scab...

[Pigeon451]

I'm assuming you've never been to a developing country before, assuming from your typical "west is right" attitude. These people make relatively good money working for a "reputable" company in a clean environment. Generally they make all this money to send home to family. Oh, they make a fraction of what we would pay them you argue? The money they make goes a long way over there. If you were to move to a third world country, you could sell your house and live like a king, with servants and drivers. But, then again, you'd be living in a third world country ...

Working at this factory for 12 hour shifts (voluntary, or so they say), is certainly better than working in a farm or "retail" for 12-16 hour days. Their housing is even paid for at this place, so what else do they have to do other than work? The entire way of life is very different in Asia.

Excellent link

[NevarMore]

The site the OP linked to is really neat.

Theres quite a bit of good PC computing history from a custom builder perspective. Translates well to the small shop or the lone self-service geek.

More importantly there is some good commentary on how a buisness and its customers should work together.

If I was in AU I'd be buying from RedHill.

Re:Excellent link

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought 2 PC Chips motherboards for 20 quid. One worked but only recognised
my Semperon after I flashed to the latest BIOS rev. It was sold with my Semperon
but I had to flash it to get it to work...WTF?

The other one was DOA, it was replaced and the replacement was DOA. I then did not get around to asking for another replacement and the initial replacement period has past.

So it sits on a shelf on my room. Piece of crap....

I WILL NEVER BUY PC CHIPS AGAIN.

The line of women somewhat of adisturbing image

[mr_stinky_britches]

http://www.hardcoreware.net/image.php?src=5081&ts= 1151228420 This reminds me of factories in the USA al circa 1920 I thought we had robotics to do this kind of stuff quite reliably by not?

Better tour arround Shen Zhen and DVD factory

[citizenr]

http://pclab.pl/art19741.html in Polish, but TONS of pictures, and pictures are worth 1000 words.

What is read to workers?

[SEWilco]

Anyone recognize the book which seems to be read to the workers?

What were those silly Americans thinking?

[pallmall1]

I don't know about the American worker, but American corporations are thinking:

Mexicans.

Not "from the ground up"

[Eric Smith]

If it was really a "from the ground up" factory, sand, crude petroleum, metal ores, and trees would go in one end, and finished motherboards in cardboard boxes would come out the other.

Having a factory that takes in copper-clad FR4 boards, electronic components, solder, and printed boxes and turns out assembled PCBs is not particularly unusual. Most electronics manufacturing of cost-sensitive consumer products is done in exactly that way. I suppose if they made the chips too I'd be a little more impressed.

It does look like their cafeteria serves healthier food than I usually get for lunch, but that's not really my employer's fault.

A number of separate issues are being fudged...

[ofcourseyouare]

A number of separate issues are being fudged in some of these posts...

Q1: Are working conditions in countries such as China perfect by our standards?
A: Obviously not, too strict.

Q2&3: Are working conditions good enough by their standards? Are working conditions better than, for example, working on a peasant farm?
A: Yes, otherwise why would they work there? There's plenty of peasant farms in China -- people are leaving them in droves.

Q3: Will working in such standards help raise the wealth of China so that in years hence they can afford to have our standard of living -- along with real unions, health care, etc.
A: Yes - globalisation in East Asia has brought about the greatest mass liberation from poverty in the history of the planet. For interesting data, check out:
http://hdr.undp.org/statistics/data/
Click on Human development trends 2005 NEW !

Q4: How would China be without globalisation?
A: Check out Burma or North Korea, both of which are following their own roads to paradise.

Q5: Is the rise of such factories a challenge to labour in developed countries?
A: Yes of course - globalisation is not a zero sum game -- it does make all coutnries better off -- but jobs will go where they can be done cheapest. And that does include a lot of skilled tech jobs.

Q6: Is the rise of China accompanied by extra pollution?
A: You bet.

However, I believe it's worth it overall -- a country as big as China is never going to be raised from poverty through our charity. It needs industry. This will be accompanied, as it was in the West, by pollution, and also by job losses. But everyone reading this has reaped the benefits of industrialisation (computers don't grow on trees), now it's their turn.

Re:A number of separate issues are being fudged...

[ScrewMaster]

However, I believe it's worth it overall -- a country as big as China is never going to be raised from poverty through our charity. It needs industry. This will be accompanied, as it was in the West, by pollution, and also by job losses. But everyone reading this has reaped the benefits of industrialisation (computers don't grow on trees), now it's their turn.

You may believe that. I'm sure you do. But all I know is that I'm earning a lot more than I was when I entered the work force twenty-six years ago, yet have less buying power than I've ever had, and frankly don't perceive a future that's anywhere near as bright as you seem to make it. Sure, globalization may not be a zero-sum game ... but the net effect, at this point in time, is a massive transfer of wealth from the West to the East. That's just the way it is. And if you were to ask me if I'm happy about the ongoing decline in the United States' standard-of-living due to the destruction of our domestic industries by Chinese imports ... well no, I'm not, particularly. Japan started the process with our consumer electronics manufacturing, and now China seems poised to finish it with everything else. The article said it quite clearly: they'll do anything if it takes the business away from us. About the only thing in that article with which I agree, frankly. And your overweening concern for the plight of the Chinese worker is almost endearing but the reality is that China and the United States are locked a brutal economic struggle. China, for a number of reasons (first and foremost the remarkable ethical lapses exhibited by our various Captains of Industry and their paid government officials) is winning, and the outcome for the U.S. population will be serious.

I've heard too many people carry on about the supposed benefits of what is variously termed "globalization" or the "global economy". I have yet to see any of these mythical benefits, in fact, so far as I'm concerned all that is happening is just an example of involuntary foreign aid from the United States to China. So be it. But don't try to sugar-coat what is really going on. China is not interested in economic competition with the United States. It wants to eliminate the U.S. from the world scene as a viable competitor.

Re:A number of separate issues are being fudged...

[Artifakt]

Q2&3: Are working conditions good enough by their standards? Are working conditions better than, for example, working on a peasant farm?
A: Yes, otherwise why would they work there? There's plenty of peasant farms in China -- people are leaving them in droves.

It's worth noting that this isn't an automatically safe assumption. Much of Africa, right now, has a huge influx of people from the farms to the cities, but there is little or no economic growth (often there's profoundly negative growth instead), and it doesn't seem increased job opportunities or quality of life are driving it at all. It also doesn't seem to be driven by agri-business taking over land formerly held by families, or any of the other causes usually cited in other cases. The same goes for parts of South America.
        One guess is that African urbanization is being driven almost totally by non-economic factors, such as fear of mercenary bandit forces invading rural villages. This is a very real risk in some places, but also an incredibly overhyped risk in others where it is geographically unfeasable and not historically seen, yet waves of rumors seem to spring up from nowhere, and people respond to them in states of near panic by moving to the citys even with no prospect of employment or socal services.
          China, and most of Asia, seems to be roughly following the model of the west, where flight to the urban centers is at least sometimes driven by desire to better oneself. However, they also have concurrent pressures the 'first world' didn't. In the US and Europe, we had songs and jokes (How are you gonna keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen Paris?) ever since the 1910's, while big Agribusiness presures lagged that by 50 years or so. In China, the two are nearly running in sync.

Re:A number of separate issues are being fudged...

[Anonymous Coward]

Best way to avoid poverty is to stop reproducing. Globalization is just a way of wiping out native cultures and replacing them with homogenous capitalistic ones.

Contary to popular belief, there were plenty of traditional pre-industrial cultures that offered their citizens good living conditions and maintained indigineous culture. I'm no fan of poverty, but I'm no fan of what globalism has done to our societies, starting from Roman conquerers in Europe to what we have today.

Re:A number of separate issues are being fudged...

[Anonymous Coward]

There's plenty of peasant farms in China -- people are leaving them in droves.

Hardly surprising now that ALL education and ALL health care in China is pay-as-you-go; the peasents have no choice but to leave and provide cheap labour for the work gangs in the cities if they want any chance of their children having either. China's rural areas are increasingly populated by grandparents and their grandchildren and there is a huge questionmark over who in the next generation is going to know how to do the actual farming. Meanwhile in the cities draconian laws ensure that workers can not partake in any of the normal benefits of industrialisation which would allow pay to start rising. The China revolution is only for the ruling elite and their foreign friends. The peasents can be, and are, literally worked to death and no one will look up from counting the money to even notice. People like yourself.

For well over 99% of its population China today is hell on earth with the constant threat of having everything they own, and that's not much, taken off them at the whim of some party chief or a faceless multi-national who wants whatever is under their land. Children are dumped alive in landfills because their parents can not afford to look after them because they are not allowed to work in the cities and bring their children with them so they can stay at home and have nothing or kill the children and hope that they can save up enough to keep the next one alive.

China's government spends a lot of time making sure that the outside world hears the "everything's getting better" story, but it's still a big fat lie. Some people are getting rich, a few very rich indeed, but the vast majority are going backwards and they are not happy about it. Not happy at all. Every year there's more uprisings in the countryside and even the government admits that the figures are rapidly approaching 100,000 such mini-revolutions per year which have to be put down by a combination of armed police and mercenaries employed by western companies who share their desire to not see the boomtime of near slave labour end.

Yeah, globalisation is really paying big dividends for the peasents alright. A fella could die from all those rising standards.

Re:A number of separate issues are being fudged...

[booch]

China is not interested in economic competition with the United States. It wants to eliminate the U.S. from the world scene as a viable competitor.

The rest of your post was reasonable, if not a bit one-sided. But this part is a bit off the farm. The US is the largest buyer of Chinese products. If China eliminated the US as a competitor, we wouldn't have enough money to buy their stuff. It's interesting to compare economic competitive strategies with strategies for biological viruses -- the best strategy is not to kill the host.

Re:A number of separate issues are being fudged...

[ScrewMaster]

Of course it was a bit one-sided, but then again, as an American all I hear about is the other side (in other words, all the countries that are making out like bandits in this global economy at our expense) so I didn't think it was out of line. Regardless, what China is doing is not competition, in the traditional Western sense, any more than the Japanese tactic of dumping vast quantities of electronic components at below manufacturing cost to eliminate domestic manufacturing was "competition". In both cases, these are destructive approaches to business that leave the victim utterly dependent upon the winner. That's not a good thing, if you happen to be the loser. In this case, we have a parasite that doesn't want to kill the host just yet, at least not until it's extracted the last bit of useable nutrient. Honestly, if you believe otherwise I suggest you take a good look at the sheer quantity of American manufacturers of all kinds that have essentially sold out to China by moving their production and engineering facilities to that country, leaving just management and marketing here. At some point, we're going to be so hollowed out (meaning: unable to provide for ourselves and without the financial or intellectual means to rebuild what we've dismantled in our quest for cheaper Chinese goods) that there will be an economic collapse. How severe it will be I have no idea, but I don't doubt that it is on the way.

Re:A number of separate issues are being fudged...

[Tiro]

I've heard too many people carry on about the supposed benefits of what is variously termed "globalization" or the "global economy". I have yet to see any of these mythical benefits, in fact, so far as I'm concerned all that is happening is just an example of involuntary foreign aid from the United States to China.

You make it sound like China is somehow coercing us.

If you think it's involuntary, you should reflect upon what our leaders like Blair, Bush, Clinton, Thatcher have been doing intentionally. They are helping the wealthy investor class extract a lot of wealth from middle America.

Sure, China and India are gaining a little but the top 1% of America is cashing in. (Of course, in the long run Japan and China will rock us because they are being serious about industrial research, but that's a different story).

Re:A number of separate issues are being fudged...

[Jeff DeMaagd]

China is not interested in economic competition with the United States. It wants to eliminate the U.S. from the world scene as a viable competitor.

I really don't understand why you think that the US is being singled out here, Europe and Japan are feeling the same pressures from China as well, and they are all hurting from China's pressure too.

Re:A number of separate issues are being fudged...

[booch]

You bring up Japan, which has interesting parallels. Back in the 1980s, we all thought that they were going to kill our economy, for the same exact reasons. It didn't happen. While I don't think that the situations are exactly the same, I think it shows that there's more hope than a lot of us think.

There are also positive sides to the current situation. We get to buy a lot of stuff cheaper than before. Our money is currently worth a lot, and we're taking advantage of that. We're also able to be more "lazy" and not spend so much time making stuff. And the economic interdependency between China and the US will make it more difficult to go to war with each other.

On the negative side, I agree that it could become a problem that we no longer manufacture a lot of the things that we need. If we ever get cut off, it would hurt us a lot. A lot of what we still produce here is entertainment and "intellectual property". If the world ever gets pissed enough to fix the intellectual property treaties, we're in trouble. (But we deserve it.)

I think there's a reasonable chance that the US will run into serious economic problems due to the trade imbalance with China, our excessive national debt, our poor savings, and our outsourcing of manufacturing jobs. Again, I think we have it coming, and I think it might help us to stop being so arrogant (and influential) as a nation.

Why

[The Dobber]

Why do this reviews always strike me as having been written in the style of a sixth graders "What I Did On My Summer Vacation"?

Is technical writing something we'll be farming out to China also?

Re:Why

[lowlight852]

To make it something other than a rehash of manufacturer-supplied PR information, perhaps?

Things are going to be different t.h.e.r.e. too

[heroine]

> things are different in China.

tends to be a favorite line among American authors.

If u.s. wants China to launch its satellites, make its cars, make its motherboards, and finance its debt, things are going to have to be different t.h.e.r.e. too.

The end is near!

[notoriousE]

Pretty soon every computer you buy is going to have an ECS motherboard in it!

dear lord i hope not! the return rate on ECS boards at my work is like 70% due to defects!

But what about the rest?

[CCFreak2K]

As far as motherboards go (or basically just about any PCB in a home PC), ECS isn't exactly the best, but they also aren't the worst. What about companies like ASUS, or companies at the other side of the spectrum like PCCHIPS? How well do their factories and workers fare against ECS's standards?

Re:But what about the rest?

[StarWreck]

ECS bought PCChips. PCChips used to ship motherboards with fake cache and put in several safeguards to keep you from finding out it was fake. I wonder how many of of PCChips tactics were absorbed by ECS...

Re:But what about the rest?

[Anonymous Coward]

PCChips is the same as ECS, one bought the other in or they merged or something in one of those weird corporate amoeba-mating gay marriage things.

Re:But what about the rest?

[NetRAVEN5000]

"I wonder how many of of PCChips tactics were absorbed by ECS..."

I don't know a whole lot about ECS but I do know quite a few people (myself included) who have had bad experiences with ECS. Mine, the motherboard was actually cut when I bought it.

They replaced it, but still. . . I don't see how they cut the silicon and didn't notice it during inspection. And I didn't receive the replacement until like two months later - I had already purchased a new Gigabyte mobo.

Re:But what about the rest?

[evilviper]

ECS isn't exactly the best, but they also aren't the worst. What about companies like ASUS, or companies at the other side of the spectrum like PCCHIPS?

I hate multi-page articles as much as anybody, but damn. In the SECOND SENTENCE it says in no uncertain terms:

After merging with PC Chips, ECS has recently started pushing into the retail market;

And for this, you got modded up. Wonderful.

Re:But what about the rest?

[whoop]

PCChips was the first motherboard manufacturer I ever barred from my house. Coincidentally, ECS was the second. They have been the worst I've ever purchased. Asus and Gigabyte haven't done me wrong, yet.

page 5 shows it well...

[YesIAmAScript]

http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-335-5.h tm

The surface mount components are installed by machine. Large components cannot be inserted by machine.

ECS is doing the same thing you see a picture of at that other site. They install some stuff by machine, some by hand.

The machines cost about $100,000 (I asked when viewing a line). But they can insert a lot of components the one in the pic is inserting at least 40 different components (you can see from the reels), probably 100+ total SM components in the same time as one of those women inserts their components. So, it replaces 100+ women, the women make $50 a month, two shifts a day. That's replacing $10,000 worth of people a month at chinese wages.

As you can see, they can't afford not to use these machines. And really, if you care about quality at all, you especially can't afford not to use these machines. These machines are far more accurate, so your yield goes way up.

It's true that the wages in China make labor-intensive assembly feasible. But you've picked a bad example of labor-intensive assembly. Any device that is sold with a tight-fitting case on it (like a cell phone) is going to have a lot more manual labor required, because attaching subassemblies, routing flexes and stuffing it in that case can't be done by machine. A motherboard is sold to you bare (not in a case), and thus can be automated a lot more.

BS!

[mangu]

Automated insertion machines put in the components, and transfer conveyors connect the machines. That's the way it should be.

You mean, like this? Do you think these people make less than $1/hour? Do you think this kind of work is done by robots in the USA?

Why don't you try to learn something about a subject before posting? You have no idea of how electronic manufacturing is done, either in China or US or Mexico or anywhere. Placing SMDs is never done by hand, no human being, regardless of salary, can place them with the needed precision in an assembly line. OTOH, there are many types of tests and inspections that need to be done by humans. Current artificial vision systems, for instance, are too unreliable to locate many types of failures that people see at a glance.

also from The Tech Report

[mako1138]

June 23, though.

http://techreport.com/etc/2006q2/ecs-factory/index .x?pg=1

Cell phone automated assembly

[Animats]

Cell phone assembly tends to be heavily automated, because the devices are designed for it. Here's a cell phone assembly line in Michigan. Cell phones are typically a stack of flat subassemblies sandwiched between the halves of the case, which makes for good automated assembly.

Surface mount components are almost always placed and soldered by machine, but it's quite feasible to insert most through-hole components by machine, too. Wiring harnesses remain a headache. You can design computers without them; the Macintosh IIci, with a power supply that slipped directly into tabs on the motherboard, was a nice example. But you have to integrate case and board design for that to work.

Dont worry folks, its gone

[Smoke2Joints]

Another server brought to its knees, crying. Well done slashdot!

wiring harnesses work...

[YesIAmAScript]

That's why they are used. If you use a hard connection in a portable device, when the user sits down, the connectors are stressed. And you can pop the connector right off the board. The IIci was large enough, rigid enough and didn't fit in a pocket, so it wasn't a problem.

Cell phones aren't made in Michigan. They're made in China. You've made a big mistake here:

Eimo Americas is a:
"Solutions provider specializing in prototyping, tooling and mass manufacturing of plastic products for various industries."

Eimo Americas makes plastic cases, not phones. You're showing an automated (probably prototype) line for making plastic parts, which is very easy. Putting the parts in the case ia manual labor-intensive job. Think of a flip-phone and how the flex from the top to the bottom gets through that hinge. It doesn't come that way, and it isn't done by machine.

Oh, and another problem with your example of this, Eimo is a division of Foxconn.

http://vicksburg.eimoam.com/default.aspx?content=c ontact

Foxconn is the company which was recently raked over the coals for making iPods with lots of low-paid employees in China.

It's possible to insert some through-hole components by machine, that's true. Others are too large to stay put when the board is moved between machines on the conveyor though, so they have to be placed and soldered at one station, something that isn't possible with a place machine. Additionally, some SM components cannot be placed by machine, and others could be, but they can't be soldered with the rest of the components, so they are placed and soldered by hand.

thousands of units would be no problem...

[YesIAmAScript]

True short runs might be done by hand, but thousands are done automatically.

These pick and place machines are very programmable.

When a PCB is designed, the type and location of each component is noted and saved in a file. When you want to manufacture that PCB, you send that file to the PCB maker. The PCB maker uses that file to make the silkscreen for the board, and then plugs that file into the pick and place machine. Then he just has to set up the machine to tell it which bin the 1K resistors (and other parts) are in. It then picks up the parts from the right bins and puts them on the board in the right locations.

The machine is then set up to make that board. It can be done in a few hours, including adjustments. And all you have to do is save the resulting config file to a disk, then load it again later and put the same parts in the same bins as before and it'll start stuffing boards again.

The pick and place machine is quicker to train and reconfigure than humans are.

He does less damage than a bankruptcy seeking Co.

[sethstorm]

Thanks to corporation friendly bankruptcy laws, his company wants to go bankrupt, but not count foreign assets as a part of tax evasion. Never mind that those operations are doing quite fine thanks to currency dumping and repeated union bashing.

  The damage that the janitor supposedly does is a heck of a lot better to take instead of the executive that can manipulate markets without any moral obstructions. When you screw around with your workers, this is what you get.

I'll gladly take any of the "$20/h Janitor) products (especially pre-NAFTA US/Non Globalized Europe based vehicles) any day over worker hostile economies such as any of the countries from India to Japan.

Come here to get your free "Buy America" endruns!

[sethstorm]

Toyota, Honda, Hyundai etc. are building factories here that employ Americans at low, non-union wages

Correction:

Toyota, Honda, Hyundai etc. are building factories here that employ Americans at low, non-union wages so they could get around the Buy America act by having a US presence.

There. Fixed that significant error for you.

It's easy to build factories in the US when you can manufacture union-hostile sentiment, circumvent regulation, and build vehicles that end up self-compacting and self entombing the occupants lest they get in a simultaneous front & rear or frontal collision. No thanks, I'll take a decently sized vehicle where human rights and jobs are respected at the non-executive levels.

Point yourself to NCR to see your folly.

[sethstorm]

-No. In other words, perhaps if workers did what they were paid for (high-quality output) versus simply throwing pieces together in a "screw the company" mentality to just get their paycheck at the end of the week, then everybody would see a benefit. Lower returns to the producer, happier consumer, lower prices, all that good stuff. My point is that workers aren't holding up their end of the deal.

Maybe you need to see the other side of the equation, where human rights in the workplace can generate profits.

Example - NCR, pre and post globalization are two different animals, the latter being only a shell of a profitable company.

NCR during the days of allowing human rights up until the early 1980s had performed well - without having unions, but actually promoting the welfare of the worker by providing nearly everything the worker needed, from housing(a bit extreme now, but in some ages that was a godsend) to a private university education (which can thwart the "Company Store" argument, and that the university was separate from NCR). These days, the corporation has been bought and spun off from AT&T, demolished the near entirety of their campus and sold nearly all of it to a university(part of it is thankfully in the hands of a newspaper) that now is nothing but an exclusive party school(with a pricetag that prices most of the 40k average out at 31k). What happened other than a major amount of toxic chemicals was the gradual phasing out of human rights that ran up to the grand finale in the 1990s with the health care/retirement controversy.

Now they're just reduced to a minor footnote of a company that once paralleled IBM with products that proudly matched the high quality of their workers(notwithstanding the health concerns). The only thing they do is repackage low quality products like ECS boards into expensive solutions, or breathe life into ATMs(which are ironically the highest quality construction of their products by intention).

Look across the nation and world(specifically the UK) and you'll see examples much like this, all with the same ironic downward spiral that began with Thatcher/Reagan up to today with the job nearly complete in worker rights reversal. I'm amazed that they did so in such short time.


When they perform quality work, they should be rewarded. When unionized workers slack off, think of how long it takes to fire one of these morons? Major example is with the police.

With lower paying jobs, the protection is needed, it's not like you can't come up with some workaround like y'all did with "Buy America" (*cough*New Flyer/AM General/MAN of Germany*cough*), requirements to hire US workers(as seen later on), and offshoring(the REAL slogan of Hewlett "Hurd's just as bad as Fiorina" Packard). The police in particular are guaranteed a job short of major law violations- would you rather have them worrying about job security more or enforcing the law more- there being not really any room for anything else?


Your argument for communism is totally out of whack. Specifically Marxism is the best form of theoretical government. But as we all know, 'it aint happenin'.

2006, 2008, 2010, 2012. It wont be Marxism taking over, but we'll at least correct the corporate imbalance on a more permanent basis this time.

America is America, money talks, bullshit walks, and I can speak as a business owner when I say that I will pay a worker his worth. I won't pay somebody 3x what they are worth. Nor will I pay them less. But you seem to leave out the business owners in your equation.

Yet your kind cares not to pay even the fair worth, uses such tricks as "requirements exceeding existence of skills" to get around regulation to hire foreign workers, drives companies into deliberate bankruptcy to attempt to void union contracts, and buys up legislation that defangs anyone that wants to unionize in even the most deser

Re:Point yourself to NCR to see your folly.

[Anarchy24]

Ethics doesn't mean paying bloated prices. WHICH I might add get passed on directly to the consumer and lead to inflation. Real wage increases are non-existant.

And "my kind"? You seem to portray me as some evil, rich, aristocratic snob who snubs his nose at the "poor working class". Know what I make right now? $9 an hour. Think I want to make more than that? Sure do. Think I'm worth more than that? Damn right. But you know what? The market says otherwise. So what do I do? I learn more, I improve, and I beat out the other guy. Economic safety nets don't work because not everybody puts forth equal effort. Lazy people drain the system while hard workers have to pick up the slack. And I will have you know that not all businesses have the corporate greed that you so love to paint us with. As I said, plain and simple - I won't screw anybody over with fancy language and legal tactics, nor will I myself be screwed over by heavy-handed union tactics (note: I am self-employed, but write this from the perspective of an employer).

At the end of the day, its either red or black ink. You can have your job and get paid what the market says you will get paid, or you can be unionized and screw the company over and not know if you have a job the next day. Like it or not, foreign countries have no regard for their workers. Thats the fact. Live with it. Companies reap what the market says they will get. Why should workers get an unfair share? They have free choice to move where there is work, to learn new skills, and to improve their lot.

I am shocked that there aren't more reasonable and business-savvy people trolling this discussion. I consider myself a liberal but this whole argument for subsidized-everything and communist economics is just blowing things completely out of the water. Face reality folks! The Chinese are here to stay!

This isnt new by a long shot.

[sethstorm]

If you've lived next to and/or worked for a multinational, you have seen this kind of factory buildup - examples being NCR and IBM (to name two random offenders amongst them all) that did the same thing as some have suggested - uproot and move to anywhere else that has the least ethical cost. Both examples had a major US presence, valuing the workers until Reagan and Thatcher reworded "corporate favortism" into "competition". That's when things went to countries such as China (that do nothing but keep themselves artificially cheaper, or have rubber stamped CMM-5's that cost companies more than domestic talent did).

  What you see in China will meet the same fate with even more dire consequences for a population that cannot even question the problem. If there are any benefits at the end for pulling these kind of stunts, I might as well sign up and be frozen for the next 500 years and maybe have a chance at seeing any perceived benefits.

GM Deathwatch series

[nido]

If every GM car was as good as a new 'Vette or Cad, perhaps they'd be making more profit? Perhaps if they stopped making ugly, shitty cars that get bad mileage they'd sell a few more? No, it's easier to blame the unions.

so true, so true. GM could be profitable even with their union labor rates. They'd just have to build cars the equal of Toyota's lineup.

GM Deathwatch, part 81

also see GeneralWatch

How do you think you get a DVD player for $100?

[Anonymous Coward]

1) kick people out of their homes and off their farms with the help of corrupt government officials and armed gangs - so the land for the factory is cheap. Promise compensation, but don't pay what you promised, or pay it late, or not at all. Bribe the local police to intimidate people who speak out.

2) Build the factory using itinerant workers. Pay as little as possible by using sub contractors who rip off their staff, run off with their wages, fine them for being 5 minutes late for work (never hear about people getting a proportionate bonus for 5 min OVERTIME do you?)

3) Staff factory with the people who lost their homes or businesses when the land was appropriated to build a new factory.

4) Institute demeaning, draconian work practices. Fine workers who turn up late. Offer them Housing and meals, but deduct that from their paypacket (even Nokia's factory was doing this) work them 12 hours a day. Turn the local police (who are now in your back pocket) onto anyone who makes trouble.

etc onward all the way to Walmart or wherever else you get a $100 DVD player. You people buying them (sipping your fairtrade coffee but snuggled up in your made in china Acrylic knitware) are placing yourselves at the end of a long chain of sufferring, exploitation and violence. www.theepochtimes.com and other people are risking their lives to try and inform the public in developed countries.

Don't worry when you're neutered by an exploding MBP battery - finding donors for replacement parts is no problem!

Ah - what the hell's the point? you people do care... but... $100... is just... so... damn... cheap.

Description of process is highly lacking

[dovgr]

The description of the steps of the production of the PCB is highly lacking. Here is a list of technologies used in the production of a motherboard that are not even mentioned in the article:

• Imaging: How the CAM patterns are transfered to the PCB. There are three different methods used in the industry:
  1. Plotter draws on film, conductor is coated with photoresist, pattern is copied from film to photoresist through UV light, photoresist is developed, washed, and the panel is etched.
  2. Direct imaging, which skips the step of using film and writes directly on a special photoresist. Precisition is much higher. Usually not used yet for computer motherboard, but only for high end mobiles.
  3. Build up. Instead of etching the material is deposited by electrolysis on top of the laminate.
• Drilling. Used for interconnections between surface layers of the motherboard. Old method was mechanical. Today the market is using laser drilling almost exclusively.
• AOI - Automatic Optical Inspection. Used at every stage of the production to find faults as soon as possible. It is much much cheaper to find a short on the bare PCB board, which can be repaired, then to find the same defect by a malfunctioning motherboard, which needs to be scrapped. Even the assambled boards are checked with AOI.
• Different chemical processes used for the build-up process.

On the other hand there were pictures from the cafeteria... ;-)

Labour intensive mfring not bad

[qaqa]

Havent any of you taken basic economics classes? 1 USD can buy a heck lot more in China than in the US. A wage of USD 2/3 might be ridiculous in the US, but quite sufficient in low wage countries like China and India. I'm from India, so I'll take India as an example. Last time I checked, the minimum wage in India was INR 48-52/day(USD 1). An income of INR 3000-4000(USD 65 - 86) is sufficient to maintain a family of 4. Costs of living are very low, especially in smaller towns. Points of reference? Doctors fresh from med school get around USD 65 per month in govt run hospitals. Expenses? Well, INR 1000 p.m. gets me decent 1 room accomodation in my somewhat small city. Schooling? Well, around INR 4000 per annum gets you a decent private school. Of course, govt run schools are free with free meals for the kids to boot.
End point - Labour intensive manufacturing is sometimes inherently cheaper in developing countries.

But automated manufacturing costs more or less the same whether in US or in say India. Power costs in India are significantly higher, capital outlay reqd for the machinery is more or less the same..

Why would someone throw away their competitive advantage? Automation is not necessarily "the way it should be".

Wage issues aside, I agree that working conditions in China are truly appaling and dehumanising. Atleast in India, most factory workers are unionised and are protected by a plethora of laws.

Most unions in India are unfortunately highly politicised.(Most unions are affiliated to the INTUC or the CITU, which are in turn very close to powerful Left parties) Union leadership is thus seen as a stepping stone into politics. Unsurprisingly, labour unrest is frequently stirred by union leaders trying to throw their weight around.