This is so ridiculous. If you had been at LinuxWorld you would not say that Gnome can't win.
I didn't say that; I said Red Hat can't win a KDE vs. GNOME war.
There is no need for either Gnome or KDE or "lose"
I didn't say that either.:-)
But Red Hat could lose by unnecessarily involving themselves in a KDE vs. GNOME war by chosing to promote one over the other. This is a "no win" situation for them; there is nothing to be gained but ill will.
There is nothing wrong with giving people a choice - that is what Linux is all about.
I agree. I am suggesting that Red Hat include them both in their next release let people chose the one they like best.
You still assume their move was caused by KDE license concerns?
In part, yes.
I'm sure part of it's got to do with the fact that they're well into the project and don't want to abandon it, as a previous poster noted.
I also think part of it has to do with internal issues at Red Hat. My perception (which is not based on any inside information) is that Bob Young would be much more open to adopting KDE now that the license is "fixed" than some of the Red Hat developers are. People really get emotionally involved with some of these issues, and it obscures their ability to make sound, unbiased decisions.
It would be nice if Red Hat included KDE 1.1 as the primary desktop for the next release, and gave the GNOME developers time to knock out a few of the remaining bugs. I know Red Hat really sticks to their guns when it comes to Open Source software, but I would think the new Qt license would be acceptable to them.
It would be bad if the 6.0 release was delayed waiting for GNOME, or even worse if it was buggy. A few folks in the mainstream media would love to see that happen.
Can you imagine that? 200 posts/minute. The combined force of MS and KDE in the same article would be enough to achieve critical mass -- there'd be a crator where Rob's sever used to be...
Anyway, it will never happen so long as Windows has any kind of market share at all. Office is the second part of Mixrosoft's one-two punch, and they're not about to compromise that by porting to a competing OS Like Linux.
Why would you say "it must really suck to be Caldera right now"
Well, it's not that you have a bad distro, it's that people are showing a strong tendency to 'follow the herd', and Red Hat is getting most of the media attention. As Bob Young would say, they're good at marketing catsup.:-)
I happen to use OpenLinux as my main distro simply because it's stable and it came with KDE. I also use Red Hat 5.2, and I'm evaluating SuSE 6.0. I was disappointed with the 60 page getting started guide that came with 1.3; hopefully 2.0 will include a more extensive manual, and more than 30 days of installation support. I tentatively plan to buy OpenLinux 2.0 to get the 2.2 kernel and KDE 1.1.
I don't have any real complaints with Red Hat; they have a good product and market it well. But I am concerned that the LSB is going to get run over in this sudden Red Hat lovefest.
SuSE automatically sends you the new versions when they come out. It's cheaper ($35 vs $50) and you can cancel anytime. Not a bad deal.
BTW, I assume 6.1 will have GNOME, since SuSE tends to throw in every window manager and desktop in existance. It will be nice to have a stable, tested distro with both KDE and GNOME.
I think SuSE and PHT will do okay, no matter how large and successful Red Hat becomes. People tend to be nationalistic (not always a bad thing), so SuSE will continue to do well in Germany, PHT likewise in Asia.
but it must really suck to be Caldera right now...:-|
I've got a SuSE subscription, so I got 6.0, but the release that I'm really waiting for is 6.1, which will have the 2.2.x kernel and KDE 1.1, and should be out in late April or May (my estimate, BTW).
I was never able to get WinNT to install on top of Linux; it always choked (and destroyed my boot manager in the process, requiring me to break out a boot disk).
To install Linux and NT on the same box you have to used the NT boot manager and keep lilo off the MBR. You also have to make a Linux boot image for NT. I've never actually tried it, so there may be more to it than that. I think I saw a mini HOWTO on the LDP that covers it pretty well.
I got a new NT PC at work last week -- the first thing I did was download VIM.:-)
It was the first time I've used Windows NT, and I was suprised how primitive the NT UI is. The "DOS window" doesn't scroll back, it uses an ugly system font, and it doesn't even resize. MS has got some catching up to do if they're going to compete with KDE and GNOME!
IMO This trys to clame a Unix legacy for NT that dose not exist.
I have to agree. From the article:
Many core members of the future NT design team left Digital in 1988 to join Microsoft, which released NT's first version, Windows NT 3.1, in 1993. Thus, NT and UNIX have been evolving since the mid-1970s,...
Claiming that NT is based on a Digital OS from the mid seventies because MS hired a few digital programmers is a huge leap. The author made it across the chasm, but he had to lighten the load and leave his credibility behind to do it. And claiming that both UNIX and NT date back to the mid seventies because of this is a further distortion of the truth; 1969 is _not_ the mid seventies. Lets go by ship dates: UNIX 1976; NT 1993. What we have here is a credibility gap of about 17 years.
until cave man grog can buy Linux preinstalled, or his half-clueful brother-in-law can mindlessly click on wizards, the Microserfs will have a credible claim that Linux is harder to install.
Okay, it's _slightly_ harder to install, but my point is most of the difficulty arises from having to repartition the hard drive. People who have trouble with Linux fdisk would have trouble with Windows fdisk, it just happens that Windows is already on the drive when they get the computer so most people never have to deal with it.
There's no easy way fix this either, since partitioning disks requires at least some knowledge of hard drives. I think Red Had Disk Druid does a good a job of this as anyone does. In fact, if someone were to install Red Hat on a raw drive (without Windows), all they have to do is select the canned workstation install and the drive is partitioned for them.
X is another matter, but there is some progress being made there too. SuSE's SaX is pretty good.
...of hearing about how "Linux is harder to install than Windows".
It's simply _not_ true.
For one thing, they're always installing Linux on a system with an existing windows installation, which means that they have to repartition the hard drive and set up some sort of boot manager (lilo or otherwise).
If they had to do that with windows they'd really have something to whine about.
TedC
I wonder what happened to SuSE and TurboLinux in their review?
G400? I read about a G300 several months ago with twin TMUs, but I haven't heard anything since. What info do you have on the G400?
I think the G200 is a good chip; it's only shortcoming is it's moderate 3D performance. A G200 core in.25 micron silicon running at 125-150 MHz. with twin TMUs would probably be very competitive with the RIVA TNT.
TedC
G200 info was posted on Linux Today
on
Friday Quickies
·
· Score: 1
...about 3 days ago, and several people posted about it in a Q3 story on/..
Coincidental that it just followed the release of gnome 1.0?
It seems logical for any company writing software that's in any way related to Linux to make announcements during the week of LinuxWorld Expo while the media is paying attention.
...to think "anything I don't understand must be easy". Hence the condesending attitude toward "suits" in a large number of/. posts. I don't suppose business people like to be called suits anymore than I appreciate being called a "code monkey".
Everyone is ignorant about something, but it's usually the people who are ignorant about nearly everything that do most of the flaming.
Slashdot Mirror
I think they plan to ship E as the default window manager for GNOME, but I'm not 100 percent sure. I might have made that up. :-)
TedC
I didn't say that; I said Red Hat can't win a KDE vs. GNOME war.
There is no need for either Gnome or KDE or "lose"
I didn't say that either. :-)
But Red Hat could lose by unnecessarily involving themselves in a KDE vs. GNOME war by chosing to promote one over the other. This is a "no win" situation for them; there is nothing to be gained but ill will.
There is nothing wrong with giving people a choice - that is what Linux is all about.
I agree. I am suggesting that Red Hat include them both in their next release let people chose the one they like best.
TedC
Maybe they will. I've heard that KDE 1.1 is in the "rawhide" release, so hopefully it will make it into 6.0.
The way I see it, the KDE vs. GNOME war is one that Red Hat can't win, so why fight it?
TedC
In part, yes.
I'm sure part of it's got to do with the fact that they're well into the project and don't want to abandon it, as a previous poster noted.
I also think part of it has to do with internal issues at Red Hat. My perception (which is not based on any inside information) is that Bob Young would be much more open to adopting KDE now that the license is "fixed" than some of the Red Hat developers are. People really get emotionally involved with some of these issues, and it obscures their ability to make sound, unbiased decisions.
TedC
It would be bad if the 6.0 release was delayed waiting for GNOME, or even worse if it was buggy. A few folks in the mainstream media would love to see that happen.
TedC
Anyway, it will never happen so long as Windows has any kind of market share at all. Office is the second part of Mixrosoft's one-two punch, and they're not about to compromise that by porting to a competing OS Like Linux.
TedC
TedC
TedC
Well, it's not that you have a bad distro, it's that people are showing a strong tendency to 'follow the herd', and Red Hat is getting most of the media attention. As Bob Young would say, they're good at marketing catsup. :-)
I happen to use OpenLinux as my main distro simply because it's stable and it came with KDE. I also use Red Hat 5.2, and I'm evaluating SuSE 6.0. I was disappointed with the 60 page getting started guide that came with 1.3; hopefully 2.0 will include a more extensive manual, and more than 30 days of installation support. I tentatively plan to buy OpenLinux 2.0 to get the 2.2 kernel and KDE 1.1.
I don't have any real complaints with Red Hat; they have a good product and market it well. But I am concerned that the LSB is going to get run over in this sudden Red Hat lovefest.
TedC
:-)
SuSE automatically sends you the new versions when they come out. It's cheaper ($35 vs $50) and you can cancel anytime. Not a bad deal.
BTW, I assume 6.1 will have GNOME, since SuSE tends to throw in every window manager and desktop in existance. It will be nice to have a stable, tested distro with both KDE and GNOME.
TedC
but it must really suck to be Caldera right now... :-|
TedC
TedC
Exactly.
Free speech without accountability is just noise.
TedC
I'm sure there's someone out there who will help you with that -- we're a diverse community, you know? :-)
TedC
What, UNIX doesn't have a graphical UI?
Since Microsoft has already sited KOffice as a potential competitor in court, we can only draw one of two conclusions from Mr. Muth's remarks.
1) He's incredibly unaware of the market in which his product is competing
2) He's dishonest and doesn't mind promoting falsehoods
I guess a company that will stand up in court and lie wouldn't think twice about doing it on the net.
TedC
To install Linux and NT on the same box you have to used the NT boot manager and keep lilo off the MBR. You also have to make a Linux boot image for NT. I've never actually tried it, so there may be more to it than that. I think I saw a mini HOWTO on the LDP that covers it pretty well.
TedC
It was the first time I've used Windows NT, and I was suprised how primitive the NT UI is. The "DOS window" doesn't scroll back, it uses an ugly system font, and it doesn't even resize. MS has got some catching up to do if they're going to compete with KDE and GNOME!
TedC
I have to agree. From the article:
Many core members of the future NT design team left Digital in 1988 to join Microsoft, which released NT's first version, Windows NT 3.1, in 1993. Thus, NT and UNIX have been evolving since the mid-1970s, ...
Claiming that NT is based on a Digital OS from the mid seventies because MS hired a few digital programmers is a huge leap. The author made it across the chasm, but he had to lighten the load and leave his credibility behind to do it. And claiming that both UNIX and NT date back to the mid seventies because of this is a further distortion of the truth; 1969 is _not_ the mid seventies. Lets go by ship dates: UNIX 1976; NT 1993. What we have here is a credibility gap of about 17 years.
TedC
Okay, it's _slightly_ harder to install, but my point is most of the difficulty arises from having to repartition the hard drive. People who have trouble with Linux fdisk would have trouble with Windows fdisk, it just happens that Windows is already on the drive when they get the computer so most people never have to deal with it.
There's no easy way fix this either, since partitioning disks requires at least some knowledge of hard drives. I think Red Had Disk Druid does a good a job of this as anyone does. In fact, if someone were to install Red Hat on a raw drive (without Windows), all they have to do is select the canned workstation install and the drive is partitioned for them.
X is another matter, but there is some progress being made there too. SuSE's SaX is pretty good.
TedC
It's simply _not_ true.
For one thing, they're always installing Linux on a system with an existing windows installation, which means that they have to repartition the hard drive and set up some sort of boot manager (lilo or otherwise).
If they had to do that with windows they'd really have something to whine about.
TedC
I wonder what happened to SuSE and TurboLinux in their review?
G400? I read about a G300 several months ago with twin TMUs, but I haven't heard anything since. What info do you have on the G400?
I think the G200 is a good chip; it's only shortcoming is it's moderate 3D performance. A G200 core in .25 micron silicon running at 125-150 MHz. with twin TMUs would probably be very competitive with the RIVA TNT.
TedC
TedC
It seems logical for any company writing software that's in any way related to Linux to make announcements during the week of LinuxWorld Expo while the media is paying attention.
In other words, they're not stupid.
TedC
Everyone is ignorant about something, but it's usually the people who are ignorant about nearly everything that do most of the flaming.
TedC