Continuing the tangent, I've always thought that if you could ascertain the state of the entire universe and everything in it at any given time, you could use that data to extrapolate the future to an unlimited degree.
I was explaining this idea to my father once, when he said "But only God could have such knowledge." I was going to object, but if you think about it, he was sorta right. If you did have perfect knowledge of the present, and could then extrapolate the future, you'd be all seeing and all knowing.
1. Why do you consciously try to deliberate over any choices?
I see it as just "doing the math." If someone asks me to make a choice, I don't always automatically know the answer. Sometimes I have to crunch the numbers.
2. The next time you blame your girlfriend or boyfriend or boss for anything, why bother? After all, they have no freedom in what they do. It was all determined from the beginning of time (if not before). So why not just give it up?
If a bowling ball falls off a shelf on to your foot, yelling at it won't stop that from happening again. On the other hand, if your boss likes to pee on the table in the middle of a meeting, yelling at him might help.
Why give up? No free will doesn't mean that you will get up and go to work despite your best efforts to stay in bed. Whatever you end up choosing, is what you will do. It just so happens that your choice was a simple, deterministic weighing process.
3. When others of us say that we believe - no, we know that we are free agents, in ways that are beyond Newtonian causal physics (although not beyond some interpretations of quantum theory, e.g. Henry Stapp's or Roger Penrose's), it is absolutely determined that we will be saying these things. You could not possibly persuade us to freely change our minds through conscious deliberation on these questions. So why not just give it up?
Nope. It was determined that you would be saying those things. Then I come along and argue against them. Your brain would weigh my argument against your beliefs and life experience, and either you'd keep thinking I'm a crackpot, or you'd accept my idea and chance your mind.
If you really think you are Free, then consider the following:
If you went to buy a car, and picked by pulling keys out of a bag while blindfolded, would your choice in cars be an example of free will? No, it would be a random selection.
If you made any kind of deliberate choice, would that be an example of free will? No. Any choice will be made for a reason, be it color, engine, whatever. You simply pick what has the most weight. To suggest otherwise would mean that sometimes you buy a car you don't like, or think is inferior, for no reason at all. At best, that would be random selection. Where is free will?
Slashdot Mirror
Continuing the tangent, I've always thought that if you could ascertain the state of the entire universe and everything in it at any given time, you could use that data to extrapolate the future to an unlimited degree.
I was explaining this idea to my father once, when he said "But only God could have such knowledge." I was going to object, but if you think about it, he was sorta right. If you did have perfect knowledge of the present, and could then extrapolate the future, you'd be all seeing and all knowing.
1. Why do you consciously try to deliberate over any choices?
I see it as just "doing the math." If someone asks me to make a choice, I don't always automatically know the answer. Sometimes I have to crunch the numbers.
2. The next time you blame your girlfriend or boyfriend or boss for anything, why bother? After all, they have no freedom in what they do. It was all determined from the beginning of time (if not before). So why not just give it up?
If a bowling ball falls off a shelf on to your foot, yelling at it won't stop that from happening again. On the other hand, if your boss likes to pee on the table in the middle of a meeting, yelling at him might help.
Why give up? No free will doesn't mean that you will get up and go to work despite your best efforts to stay in bed. Whatever you end up choosing, is what you will do. It just so happens that your choice was a simple, deterministic weighing process.
3. When others of us say that we believe - no, we know that we are free agents, in ways that are beyond Newtonian causal physics (although not beyond some interpretations of quantum theory, e.g. Henry Stapp's or Roger Penrose's), it is absolutely determined that we will be saying these things. You could not possibly persuade us to freely change our minds through conscious deliberation on these questions. So why not just give it up?
Nope. It was determined that you would be saying those things. Then I come along and argue against them. Your brain would weigh my argument against your beliefs and life experience, and either you'd keep thinking I'm a crackpot, or you'd accept my idea and chance your mind.
If you really think you are Free, then consider the following:
If you went to buy a car, and picked by pulling keys out of a bag while blindfolded, would your choice in cars be an example of free will? No, it would be a random selection.
If you made any kind of deliberate choice, would that be an example of free will? No. Any choice will be made for a reason, be it color, engine, whatever. You simply pick what has the most weight. To suggest otherwise would mean that sometimes you buy a car you don't like, or think is inferior, for no reason at all. At best, that would be random selection. Where is free will?