It might help if most of you weren't redneck, nascar, trailerpark idiots who elected the worst President in our history TWICE. It would also help if you didn't equate stealing elections with getting someone you didn't like elected.
Um, theres a difference between people who speak objective facts from a partisan viewpoint (RFK, occasionally Franken, Keith Olbermann, Stephen Colbert, John Stewart etc...) and people who blatantly lie in order to convert those with no understanding of the issues to their viewpoint (Limbaugh, Moore, O'Reilly)
Is capitalism a new concept for you or something?
If that offends, you, go start a business that adopts different practices, until then, this is how they want to run it.
Not saying I like it but they were the ones succesful enough to end up in these positions to begin with, they can let in whomever they want.
I really don't have the inclination to search the depths of the net for specific examples, but suffice it to say that not only are Lockheed Martin products superior to British ones in all respects (which is why the Brits are buying the LM JSF instead of developing an indigenous carrierborne aircraft), but America in general posses both a technological and numerical superiority over Britain in every aspect except perhaps personal sidearms. Also, would someone explain to me what Saratoga, Trenton, Yorktown, and various other engagements were if not victories?
Last time we defeated you with a deficiency of both numbers and sidearms, this time you are OUR vassal, by your own PMs choice, so shutup about American inferiority. While I am a vocal opponent of both our idiotic president and the brain dead media in our country, pretending Britain is superior for blindly following America into the breach in a state so much weaker as to be laughable in any military comparison is utter foolishness, now shut up.
The reason we're calling for revolution is that those of us that are active have already tried (and failed) to break that veil of indifference, but being unable to do so, still feel we need action to change the course of events. You need only a few committed people to break the back of a government through protest, while you need 60% for democratic change, with todays indifference, which do you think is more likely?
The judicial branch got that power in the early 1800s, it isn't anything new, and it works pretty well for us in my opinion. I think it adds to the checks and balances, not detracts from it.
If you think terrorists didn't already know their conversations were liable to being tapped by the US government, you're both a fool and underestimate our enemies. The fact that the US Government might be listening in is taken for granted, which is the very reason most terrorists forego the use of most landline phones, and swap cell phones regularly.
What matters isn't who they're listening to, its that they have a SECRET spying program in the first place. If this were exposed to FISA and the appropriate congressional authorities as it was supposed to be, the issue would be much more minor. If the government can SECRETLY spy on calls that include american citizens, however, why can't they do it between citizens. Who is going to know? The danger is giving the government the power to conceal surveillance from the American public, they need warrants to get those things, warrants given through a completely secure and largely obligatory court, no less.
You are right, terrorism is the real threat to our civil liberties, but not through its own actions, it is our response to those actions, to constrict liberties in the name of safety, that destroys such important values of our country.
I thought we'd been over this, they ALREADY abused the power. It is possible to do more to ensure terrorism doesn't strike without violating the personal liberties of ordinary Americans, and in fact most of the things that DO violate those liberties serve only to harass innocent citizens because terrorists can easily avoid them. Whatever we do, terrorists will find a way to strike, there are thousands of ways to do it and all it requires is sufficient organization on their part. In the meantime, we should be vigilant, but that does not include sacraficing an ounce of liberty in the name of security. It's not being self-centered, it is upholding the words and ideas that made this country what it is, and its not about cherishing the phones, its about holding us off a slippery slope to tyranny, open your eyes man, for christs sake.
1st: I was admittedly being melodramatic for effect, but while it was after the establishment of the British parliamentary system, that system still answered to a King if not in practice then in spirit and in technicality. Also, the French Revolution happened after the American revolution and was in fact partially inspired by it, so I don't understand your point there. In addition, slavery was something that many of the founders opposed but were force to keep for political reasons, and it in any case is a shameful institution which the United States has thankfully long since abolished. The point of my comment was to highlight that America was the original place where all (admittedly and unfortunately) whites were created equal before the eyes of the law, and where the rights of average americans were supposed to be irrevocably protected by the Constitution.
2nd: Nope, you're confusing "founders" a very select group devoted to freeing our land from the shackles of monarchy and creating a nation built on the concepts of liberty with the expansionist portion of the "colonists" who took matters into their own hands in dealing with the natives, an activity which was repeated with equally brutal force in every land conquered by Westerners. While this is, of course, wrong, you can't blame the founders for the actions of people who had little relation with them or their values.
3rd: I don't see how that matters, though it is a fact that I am sickened by and acknowledge. While China does not "own" us yet, it is certainly well on its way. Despite this, currently America is still supposed to be a free nation in every sense of the way until China starts pulling in the reigns and we choose to accept them or *hopefully* break them at all costs. While the United States controls its own destiny, it should not voluntarily shuck its freedoms.
4th: Sadly, this is true, and so few people understand it. In any case that is not a consolation, just a bitter reminder that more than words may be neccesary to overturn these tragic events eventually.
I welcome debate on anything I saw though I'd ask you to take the parts that are obviously melodramatic for what they are, as some parts of what I said were intended to convey a message of my emotion rather than to display facts, and I thought I represented them as such. In any case, go ahead and reply back if you have any further questions, though your thoughts I'm afraid I can't adjust;)
The phone isn't a priviledge or a right, its a commercial service, which means all data passing through the system is subject to the protections enumerated in the bill of rights. I'd rather the terrorists kill many innocent people, myself included, than us letting ourselves be terrorized by them. We must stand strong at great cost, for the prize is liberty.
Also, by monitoring calls in the United States involving US Citizens without notifying FISA or getting warrants (both of which would be easy to do) the government has already overstepped the legal boundaries on wiretapping, and with rulings like this there is no incentive for them to stop.
er, those charges were brought against him for exposing programs that were *not* illegal, and we are talking about a program that might *be* illegal. You obviously have to prosecute people who reveal technical documents to the enemy, but that doesn't mean a lawsuit about whether Americans have been spied on has to be rejected, seeing as the fact that an activity goes on reveals no technical secrets to any enemy.
Moderate Afghans are like reasonable Nazis, they're still pretty damned conservative, and the nazis are still pretty damned bad. Look at other parts of the Islamic world like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, finally moving to recognize womens rights and allowing women to vote in municipal elections for the first time ever. These people aren't crazy, their leadership is. Also, lets not forget that the goal of Western society was once to destroy or convert all Muslims. You, sir, are a bigot and a coward, and regardless of what you say, you haven't refuted the simple statement that Bin Laden wanted to spread terror in Western society and succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.
Americans shouldn't have to fear being tapped without a warrant no matter who they talk to, if the government thinks I'm talking to terrorists they can come up with a warrant saying so, it isn't difficult and the requests are almost NEVER denied. Next time it will be "Don't wanna dissapear, don't disagree with the government" and that is exactly the kind of activity America was created to oppose.
I think the methods that you outlined as (and I understand this is what it is) examples are unrealistic, but I happen to agree with you. I do think that before we can do something like that a group has to be created to organize such things. The protests needn't be violent as long as they won't be forgotten, in my opinion creative vandalism would be a useful start, but we would have to decide that. In any case, there needs to be an organizing force for things like this, or it will fall through, as any other calls for action would. Also, supporting those parties is ridiculous because while they stand for progressive ideals on some things, in some places extreme liberalism is uncalled for, such as the fact that we do need the defenses that the greens would be so quick to scrap, just not for combatting terrorism.
Never has a damage of such permanence been done to the foundations of our country, with the possible exception of the Alien & Sedition Acts. Even then though, they were only two acts which could easily be repealed. Now the bredth of our legislation is so wide that it will become increasingle impossible to hunt down and remove all violations of our liberty from federal code. Our government has gotten so corrupt that only a thorough restructuring and cleansing will cure its evils.
The point is America should be better than everyone, we pioneered the modern concept of "freedom and democracy", and owe it to the founders of this nation who spilled blood in the name of liberty to retain leadership of the "free world". These rulings aren't the first step on the slippery slope to tyranny, its well into the tumbling phase.
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Um... Where the hell do you live? I've rewired things in my house countless times.
It might help if most of you weren't redneck, nascar, trailerpark idiots who elected the worst President in our history TWICE. It would also help if you didn't equate stealing elections with getting someone you didn't like elected.
Um, theres a difference between people who speak objective facts from a partisan viewpoint (RFK, occasionally Franken, Keith Olbermann, Stephen Colbert, John Stewart etc...) and people who blatantly lie in order to convert those with no understanding of the issues to their viewpoint (Limbaugh, Moore, O'Reilly)
Is capitalism a new concept for you or something? If that offends, you, go start a business that adopts different practices, until then, this is how they want to run it. Not saying I like it but they were the ones succesful enough to end up in these positions to begin with, they can let in whomever they want.
It probably just pinged off the charts, get a new one.
I really don't have the inclination to search the depths of the net for specific examples, but suffice it to say that not only are Lockheed Martin products superior to British ones in all respects (which is why the Brits are buying the LM JSF instead of developing an indigenous carrierborne aircraft), but America in general posses both a technological and numerical superiority over Britain in every aspect except perhaps personal sidearms. Also, would someone explain to me what Saratoga, Trenton, Yorktown, and various other engagements were if not victories?
Last time we defeated you with a deficiency of both numbers and sidearms, this time you are OUR vassal, by your own PMs choice, so shutup about American inferiority. While I am a vocal opponent of both our idiotic president and the brain dead media in our country, pretending Britain is superior for blindly following America into the breach in a state so much weaker as to be laughable in any military comparison is utter foolishness, now shut up.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
The reason we're calling for revolution is that those of us that are active have already tried (and failed) to break that veil of indifference, but being unable to do so, still feel we need action to change the course of events. You need only a few committed people to break the back of a government through protest, while you need 60% for democratic change, with todays indifference, which do you think is more likely?
The judicial branch got that power in the early 1800s, it isn't anything new, and it works pretty well for us in my opinion. I think it adds to the checks and balances, not detracts from it.
If you think terrorists didn't already know their conversations were liable to being tapped by the US government, you're both a fool and underestimate our enemies. The fact that the US Government might be listening in is taken for granted, which is the very reason most terrorists forego the use of most landline phones, and swap cell phones regularly.
What matters isn't who they're listening to, its that they have a SECRET spying program in the first place. If this were exposed to FISA and the appropriate congressional authorities as it was supposed to be, the issue would be much more minor. If the government can SECRETLY spy on calls that include american citizens, however, why can't they do it between citizens. Who is going to know? The danger is giving the government the power to conceal surveillance from the American public, they need warrants to get those things, warrants given through a completely secure and largely obligatory court, no less. You are right, terrorism is the real threat to our civil liberties, but not through its own actions, it is our response to those actions, to constrict liberties in the name of safety, that destroys such important values of our country.
I thought we'd been over this, they ALREADY abused the power. It is possible to do more to ensure terrorism doesn't strike without violating the personal liberties of ordinary Americans, and in fact most of the things that DO violate those liberties serve only to harass innocent citizens because terrorists can easily avoid them. Whatever we do, terrorists will find a way to strike, there are thousands of ways to do it and all it requires is sufficient organization on their part. In the meantime, we should be vigilant, but that does not include sacraficing an ounce of liberty in the name of security. It's not being self-centered, it is upholding the words and ideas that made this country what it is, and its not about cherishing the phones, its about holding us off a slippery slope to tyranny, open your eyes man, for christs sake.
1st: I was admittedly being melodramatic for effect, but while it was after the establishment of the British parliamentary system, that system still answered to a King if not in practice then in spirit and in technicality. Also, the French Revolution happened after the American revolution and was in fact partially inspired by it, so I don't understand your point there. In addition, slavery was something that many of the founders opposed but were force to keep for political reasons, and it in any case is a shameful institution which the United States has thankfully long since abolished. The point of my comment was to highlight that America was the original place where all (admittedly and unfortunately) whites were created equal before the eyes of the law, and where the rights of average americans were supposed to be irrevocably protected by the Constitution. 2nd: Nope, you're confusing "founders" a very select group devoted to freeing our land from the shackles of monarchy and creating a nation built on the concepts of liberty with the expansionist portion of the "colonists" who took matters into their own hands in dealing with the natives, an activity which was repeated with equally brutal force in every land conquered by Westerners. While this is, of course, wrong, you can't blame the founders for the actions of people who had little relation with them or their values. 3rd: I don't see how that matters, though it is a fact that I am sickened by and acknowledge. While China does not "own" us yet, it is certainly well on its way. Despite this, currently America is still supposed to be a free nation in every sense of the way until China starts pulling in the reigns and we choose to accept them or *hopefully* break them at all costs. While the United States controls its own destiny, it should not voluntarily shuck its freedoms. 4th: Sadly, this is true, and so few people understand it. In any case that is not a consolation, just a bitter reminder that more than words may be neccesary to overturn these tragic events eventually. I welcome debate on anything I saw though I'd ask you to take the parts that are obviously melodramatic for what they are, as some parts of what I said were intended to convey a message of my emotion rather than to display facts, and I thought I represented them as such. In any case, go ahead and reply back if you have any further questions, though your thoughts I'm afraid I can't adjust ;)
Now THAT is a good analogy!
The phone isn't a priviledge or a right, its a commercial service, which means all data passing through the system is subject to the protections enumerated in the bill of rights. I'd rather the terrorists kill many innocent people, myself included, than us letting ourselves be terrorized by them. We must stand strong at great cost, for the prize is liberty. Also, by monitoring calls in the United States involving US Citizens without notifying FISA or getting warrants (both of which would be easy to do) the government has already overstepped the legal boundaries on wiretapping, and with rulings like this there is no incentive for them to stop.
er, those charges were brought against him for exposing programs that were *not* illegal, and we are talking about a program that might *be* illegal. You obviously have to prosecute people who reveal technical documents to the enemy, but that doesn't mean a lawsuit about whether Americans have been spied on has to be rejected, seeing as the fact that an activity goes on reveals no technical secrets to any enemy.
Moderate Afghans are like reasonable Nazis, they're still pretty damned conservative, and the nazis are still pretty damned bad. Look at other parts of the Islamic world like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, finally moving to recognize womens rights and allowing women to vote in municipal elections for the first time ever. These people aren't crazy, their leadership is. Also, lets not forget that the goal of Western society was once to destroy or convert all Muslims. You, sir, are a bigot and a coward, and regardless of what you say, you haven't refuted the simple statement that Bin Laden wanted to spread terror in Western society and succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.
Americans shouldn't have to fear being tapped without a warrant no matter who they talk to, if the government thinks I'm talking to terrorists they can come up with a warrant saying so, it isn't difficult and the requests are almost NEVER denied. Next time it will be "Don't wanna dissapear, don't disagree with the government" and that is exactly the kind of activity America was created to oppose.
I think the methods that you outlined as (and I understand this is what it is) examples are unrealistic, but I happen to agree with you. I do think that before we can do something like that a group has to be created to organize such things. The protests needn't be violent as long as they won't be forgotten, in my opinion creative vandalism would be a useful start, but we would have to decide that. In any case, there needs to be an organizing force for things like this, or it will fall through, as any other calls for action would. Also, supporting those parties is ridiculous because while they stand for progressive ideals on some things, in some places extreme liberalism is uncalled for, such as the fact that we do need the defenses that the greens would be so quick to scrap, just not for combatting terrorism.
Never has a damage of such permanence been done to the foundations of our country, with the possible exception of the Alien & Sedition Acts. Even then though, they were only two acts which could easily be repealed. Now the bredth of our legislation is so wide that it will become increasingle impossible to hunt down and remove all violations of our liberty from federal code. Our government has gotten so corrupt that only a thorough restructuring and cleansing will cure its evils.
The point is America should be better than everyone, we pioneered the modern concept of "freedom and democracy", and owe it to the founders of this nation who spilled blood in the name of liberty to retain leadership of the "free world". These rulings aren't the first step on the slippery slope to tyranny, its well into the tumbling phase.
That was a beautiful speech, now can you stand by it with more than words? It's a hypothetical, but this country needs action.
How about some regime change closer to home?
The government asking to look at your conversations without a warrant or reason to suspect wrongdoing is an "unreasonable search"
already succeeded, congrats :-/