Fair enough, but don't forget that the Arena will be on a three-month timer. To me that means "must play Arena solidly for three months to achieve good gear from it." Thats pretty intense, and not much different from grinding reputation for the top stuff in the battlegrounds as the system currently works.
I agree. There just isnt a grindless MMOG. Truth is most MMOGers love to grind thats why they play this genre. True PVPers enjoy games like FPS where playing skill is all that matters, not gear character level/skill trained.
Guild Wars is a game that most closely resemble grindless but it totally took itself out of the MMOG genre.
PvPers aren't going to go to Vanguard. Vanguard has promised that they will be about huge raids. In fact, they keep saying that is the whole point of their game. I haven't seen Darkfall, but my bet is that PvP junkies will either check out WoW again after the expansion, with its promised changes to PvP, or will go to WarHammer until it is decided that WarHammer is a bust too.
There is just too much exploit going on in Planet Side, Eve, Shadowbane, et al. to have a true geniune PVP game. Its a major turn off espeically when you have your game hours on stake as opposed to your usual FPS where you can just join a different room if you dont want to play with cheaters.
Am I the only self professed "majority opinion" that fail to see the point in PVP under the MMOG genre? The fact that data is persistent is nice and all but most MMOG tries to focus PVP on your gears and character skills trained rather than true playing skill. In a lot of those it is too much of a numbers game. Whoever can amass the most number of high end toons wins. There is no limit on the number of people you can bring to a fight besides the obvious lag monster which ironically serves as a soft limit. There is also too much exploiting going on trying to take advantage of lag and ping time in most of these games as rampant in a lot of FPS. Planet Side is a good example of exploiters taking advantage of and breaking a good conceptual MMOFPS.
Eve is an example of MMORPG games being heavily exploited thru player induced lag in PVP. For example, in Eve people will copy bookmarks or coordinate log ins to lag out the other warring parties so they can get pretty much free kills. PVP isnt also much about playing skill but the number of people you can bring and the type of uber faction gear they can afford to lose.
There just isnt enough pie to go around in MMORPGs that PVP. Guild Wars is largely successful because they broke away from that genre and focus on tactical group play where your playing skill (dont confuse with character skills trained) actually does matter. Most others fail and fall into the classic WoW top gear and numbers wins it genre.
Shadowbane and Eve both suck. Eve is one of the most stupid games around. Eve to me is a game that fails to deliver. You wait months to train up skills for what. The huge time gap between acquiring new skills after newbie content is what drove me to cancel my Eve account. Eve loves to brag about its automatic skill training system (works on a timer) and how the game has no grind, which is untrue. Cost of skill books (required to train a skill) goes up astrometrically as you progress which forces you to grind for money in game on hours to no end. It could take you about 40-50 hours of grinding just to buy a mid level skill book. The best ones can take hundreds of hours.
After you grind for money to buy skill books you have to grind to buy equipments which can be destroyed in an instant by some 13 year old kids who apparently has more time on their hands to camp for money than you do. Grinding itself is doing the most stupid things you can think of in an online game. That to me is work not fun. PVP you say it is broken in the core. There is no hard player cap in number of people you can bring to fight but the game is lagged and broken beyond recognition by even the mildest size battles. The core flux of PVP is pretty stupid tbh. There isnt much variety in what you can do besides ganging up on each other DAoC style. I really dont see a point to play Eve other than having a space sim GUI to look at.
Talk about gold farmers, Eve has a bunch of macro running bots running on free accounts purchased with in game money. Parent company makes absolutely no effort to ban macro gold farmers unlike Blizzard. Another reason I quit the game.
Thanks to Eve, I really learned to appreciate WoW's 40 man raids after I tried Eve.
Clearly he did not mention lag in Eve. It is like 100 players sitting on the same table sipping tea while waiting 10+ minutes for the next card to be dealt. Some of these guys are even playing WoW cardgame on the side.
This couldnt be further away from the truth. Macro farming or macro mining in Eve-Online is as rampant as ever if not more. CCP has never massively banned macro miners because according to an official statement they do not have the man-power required to monitor user activities and enforce banning. Their counter argument to macro farmers is that the pvp nature of the game leaves policing to the hands of players. Why would paying customers have to deal with macro farmers on their own instead of the game company if not for their incompetience with such manner?
CCP's rationale for complacency regarding macro farmers is inherently flawed. In WoW macro farmers sell in game gold for real life money. While Eve Online has its share of such problems, a majority of ISK (game mony) to real life money or vice versa can be accomplished by purchasing Game Time Codes from authorized CCP resellers which can be in turn sold for ISK to other eve players. A practice that is protected by CCP against scammers. They will refund your ISK if you purchased a fake time code or one that doesnt work. A large amount of Eve players simply stayed in the game because they can use their ISK to puchase game time without ever having to pay real life money. This makes a lot of people who are already dis-interested in the game stay because they have ISK to spare and would care less if they log on or not.
Macro Farming in WoW can be viewed as a way to generate real life income. In Eve Online, macro mining specifically is used to generate advantage for alliances against each other. If you have played Eve you will get to learn that mining is an incredibly boring activity especially for people who do not own multiple accounts or have access to the best available mining belts. Alliances are player created entities (such as Guild) that can compete with each other in fighting. However, alliances often have problem competing with each other because everything you use to fight in Eve requires building materials and having a greater supply of these materials means alliance domination.
Thus in Eve the alliances that dont macro farm die off while the ones that macro farm excessively maintained their edge since beta where a few player run manufacturing corps dominated the game since then. The problem with their blueprint distribution (required to build the best equipments) is the subject of another story. This game is inherently broken and is run by a few UO/DAoC guilds that moved on to Eve that dominates both the economy and the fighting aspects of the game where new players have little or no ground to stand on unless you enroll in one of their noob training corps and become a slave to their agendas where you have little or no say. Many players have simply quit the game after they are done with the typical newbie materials.
Slashdot Mirror
Fair enough, but don't forget that the Arena will be on a three-month timer. To me that means "must play Arena solidly for three months to achieve good gear from it." Thats pretty intense, and not much different from grinding reputation for the top stuff in the battlegrounds as the system currently works. I agree. There just isnt a grindless MMOG. Truth is most MMOGers love to grind thats why they play this genre. True PVPers enjoy games like FPS where playing skill is all that matters, not gear character level/skill trained. Guild Wars is a game that most closely resemble grindless but it totally took itself out of the MMOG genre.
PvPers aren't going to go to Vanguard. Vanguard has promised that they will be about huge raids. In fact, they keep saying that is the whole point of their game. I haven't seen Darkfall, but my bet is that PvP junkies will either check out WoW again after the expansion, with its promised changes to PvP, or will go to WarHammer until it is decided that WarHammer is a bust too.
There is just too much exploit going on in Planet Side, Eve, Shadowbane, et al. to have a true geniune PVP game. Its a major turn off espeically when you have your game hours on stake as opposed to your usual FPS where you can just join a different room if you dont want to play with cheaters.
Am I the only self professed "majority opinion" that fail to see the point in PVP under the MMOG genre? The fact that data is persistent is nice and all but most MMOG tries to focus PVP on your gears and character skills trained rather than true playing skill. In a lot of those it is too much of a numbers game. Whoever can amass the most number of high end toons wins. There is no limit on the number of people you can bring to a fight besides the obvious lag monster which ironically serves as a soft limit. There is also too much exploiting going on trying to take advantage of lag and ping time in most of these games as rampant in a lot of FPS. Planet Side is a good example of exploiters taking advantage of and breaking a good conceptual MMOFPS.
Eve is an example of MMORPG games being heavily exploited thru player induced lag in PVP. For example, in Eve people will copy bookmarks or coordinate log ins to lag out the other warring parties so they can get pretty much free kills. PVP isnt also much about playing skill but the number of people you can bring and the type of uber faction gear they can afford to lose.
There just isnt enough pie to go around in MMORPGs that PVP. Guild Wars is largely successful because they broke away from that genre and focus on tactical group play where your playing skill (dont confuse with character skills trained) actually does matter. Most others fail and fall into the classic WoW top gear and numbers wins it genre.
very infomative
Shadowbane and Eve both suck. Eve is one of the most stupid games around. Eve to me is a game that fails to deliver. You wait months to train up skills for what. The huge time gap between acquiring new skills after newbie content is what drove me to cancel my Eve account. Eve loves to brag about its automatic skill training system (works on a timer) and how the game has no grind, which is untrue. Cost of skill books (required to train a skill) goes up astrometrically as you progress which forces you to grind for money in game on hours to no end. It could take you about 40-50 hours of grinding just to buy a mid level skill book. The best ones can take hundreds of hours.
After you grind for money to buy skill books you have to grind to buy equipments which can be destroyed in an instant by some 13 year old kids who apparently has more time on their hands to camp for money than you do. Grinding itself is doing the most stupid things you can think of in an online game. That to me is work not fun. PVP you say it is broken in the core. There is no hard player cap in number of people you can bring to fight but the game is lagged and broken beyond recognition by even the mildest size battles. The core flux of PVP is pretty stupid tbh. There isnt much variety in what you can do besides ganging up on each other DAoC style. I really dont see a point to play Eve other than having a space sim GUI to look at.
Talk about gold farmers, Eve has a bunch of macro running bots running on free accounts purchased with in game money. Parent company makes absolutely no effort to ban macro gold farmers unlike Blizzard. Another reason I quit the game.
Thanks to Eve, I really learned to appreciate WoW's 40 man raids after I tried Eve.
Clearly he did not mention lag in Eve. It is like 100 players sitting on the same table sipping tea while waiting 10+ minutes for the next card to be dealt. Some of these guys are even playing WoW cardgame on the side.
This couldnt be further away from the truth. Macro farming or macro mining in Eve-Online is as rampant as ever if not more. CCP has never massively banned macro miners because according to an official statement they do not have the man-power required to monitor user activities and enforce banning. Their counter argument to macro farmers is that the pvp nature of the game leaves policing to the hands of players. Why would paying customers have to deal with macro farmers on their own instead of the game company if not for their incompetience with such manner?
CCP's rationale for complacency regarding macro farmers is inherently flawed. In WoW macro farmers sell in game gold for real life money. While Eve Online has its share of such problems, a majority of ISK (game mony) to real life money or vice versa can be accomplished by purchasing Game Time Codes from authorized CCP resellers which can be in turn sold for ISK to other eve players. A practice that is protected by CCP against scammers. They will refund your ISK if you purchased a fake time code or one that doesnt work. A large amount of Eve players simply stayed in the game because they can use their ISK to puchase game time without ever having to pay real life money. This makes a lot of people who are already dis-interested in the game stay because they have ISK to spare and would care less if they log on or not.
Macro Farming in WoW can be viewed as a way to generate real life income. In Eve Online, macro mining specifically is used to generate advantage for alliances against each other. If you have played Eve you will get to learn that mining is an incredibly boring activity especially for people who do not own multiple accounts or have access to the best available mining belts. Alliances are player created entities (such as Guild) that can compete with each other in fighting. However, alliances often have problem competing with each other because everything you use to fight in Eve requires building materials and having a greater supply of these materials means alliance domination.
Thus in Eve the alliances that dont macro farm die off while the ones that macro farm excessively maintained their edge since beta where a few player run manufacturing corps dominated the game since then. The problem with their blueprint distribution (required to build the best equipments) is the subject of another story. This game is inherently broken and is run by a few UO/DAoC guilds that moved on to Eve that dominates both the economy and the fighting aspects of the game where new players have little or no ground to stand on unless you enroll in one of their noob training corps and become a slave to their agendas where you have little or no say. Many players have simply quit the game after they are done with the typical newbie materials.