Oh, well, I've tried Azureus and it's a steaming pile of crap UI-wise. So I guess that settles that: No SWT doesn't change my mind. Also since Azureus was mentioned in my first post, this was all a huge waste of time for everyone involved.
Azureus and Limewire are slow because of Azureus's and Limewire's code, not Java's. You cannot criticize the behavior of an entire programming environment based on the performance of two applications alone.
So what program should I use to form an opinion with?
Single-sided, POSIX comes out to less than 16 feet,.NET System to 40 feet. (Check my math.) And, again, the POSIX spec contains a lot more than just the kernel interface, and includes commentary and design rationales.
And.NET System contains System.Windows.Forms (i.e. pretty much everything you need for a GUI app in Windows), it includes an XML parser, it includes all kinds of web libraries.
POSIX has none of those. It is truly an unfair comparison.
1) Development and distribution for Linux are much harder. There are no real killer GUI development tools like Visual Studio or XCode/Interface Builder, and even if there were you'd have a bunch of mostly equivalent but different APIs to choose from. Distributing a commercial non-open source app is a big pain because all the repository systems are designed for open source apps. If you distribute your app on CD, it's likely the installer you write to go with it will do something the repository doesn't know about and hose up the system.
2) Linux users don't pay for software. If they like the program, someone will just make an open source clone the next day and you'll be out of business again.
Wow, are you seriously that self-delusional? You honestly think a 16x16 pixel mouse cursor is good enough on a 1680x1050 17" display? (Oh sure you can zoom in on it, but it doesn't do any smoothing so you end up with a hideous pixilated cursor.)
OS X badly, badly needs resolution independence. And unlike Windows and Linux, there's no way to manually change the DPI or fontsize for most text.
1999 called, and they want their Java criticism back. Besides, its not like C# will be any faster. Both C# and Java are JIT compiled languages that are run inside a virtual machine (JVM for Java vs..Net CLR for C#).
Both Azureus and Limewire, again the two 'flagship' Java apps I've used to a large degree, are much laggier and perform much worse than native applications, at least on OS X. Period. That Java criticism from 1999 still applies today in 2007, and until it's fixed I don't expect that to change.
What amazes me more is that you don't realize that Java apps perform worse... either it's some kind of self-delusion, or an amazing lack of observational skills. Or maybe they're just bad on OS X and good on every other platform. I dunno.
C# apps might run inside a virtual machine, but they run quickly inside a virtual machine and it's impossible for the end-user to notice the difference between a native app and a C# app.
I honestly have no idea. I'm not a software developer and programs don't generally advertise that they use "SWT." So maybe I've tried it, and maybe I haven't.
Why don't you link me to a Java program that uses SWT so I can evaluate the quality of the program and answer your question?
Ditto Bungie's Marathon series. It came out after Doom (96, IIRC), but it was also designed for modding from the start with easily swappable and editable level, art, and sound files. (And the Physics file, that was a hoot.)
Are you joking? Daggerfall was a giant bug disguised as a videogame. It was impossible to navigate any of their fancy-schmancy auto-generated dungeons without falling through the floor. Stores were a complete joke, since you could just go into one, rest until the shopkeeper goes home, then take all you want with no consequences. After all the patches, it MIGHT be considered a passable game, but the dungeon bugs remained. (They just patched in cheat codes to get past the places where you fall through the ground.) Also: the graphics kind of sucked, but they were average for the time I suppose.
Meanwhile, the entire POSIX spec, suitable for fully implementing a POSIX system including the utility apps, with commentary and rationales for design decisions, fits in about two and a half feet of binders.
The entire Windows API compared to POSIX? Talk about an unfair comparison.
Try comparing the entire Windows API with (for example) the entire OS X API. Or Linux including POSIX *and* GNOME. POSIX on its own may be fine for writing a simple CLI program, but it can't do a fourth of the stuff.net is doing.
Java is fine for CLI/Server apps, but for desktop apps it doesn't have a native look-and-feel on any platform, and it lacks integration with the OS.
I'm an OS X user, and on my computer Java apps can't use the built-in spellchecker, they can't use the Services menu, they can't interop with other applications using AppleEvents/AppleScript, the user can't drag&drop objects into or out of the application, etc. There are tons of shortcomings to GUI Java apps.
That aside, the "flagship" Java apps at the moment appear to be Limewire and Azureus. Both have overly complex hard-to-use GUIs and flaky behavior. (Not redrawing parts of the window correctly, opening windows in strange places and not where you expect, opening dialogs on a different monitor from the main app, etc.) If there were a few better examples of truly great Java apps out there, I'd probably be more able to recommend it.
(And notice I didn't even mention that they're molasses-slow.)
Also, a completely-open-in-the-FSF-sense iPhone would allow people to broadcast garbage over the GSM/WiFi antennae if they wanted to. It might not take down AT&T's entire west coast network, but it can make life difficult for people in the neighborhood.
It would also get it banned in many countries by using frequencies it's not supposed to be using, if the local version of the FCC caught one of those hacked iPhones in the act. It's not worth the risk to Apple.
Well, the license allows forking, so if that hypothetical situation occurred, they would be complying with the license. So what you're saying and what the parent is saying isn't mutually-exclusive. Which makes me wonder why you have an 'if' there.
Of course, it's all moot anyway, since Apple already has forked KHTML. It's called "Webkit", ever hear of it? It's even available on Windows now.
Who marks this stuff Insightful? Seriously? My cat is more insightful.
Slick Willy got a blowjob and it was the end of the world,
Uh, no. Slick Willy LIED UNDER OATH (it's called "perjury") and that was the end of the world. I don't know what crazy world you live in, but I think it's a pretty big deal when the President lies under oath, regardless of how petty the thing he was lying about.
Ok; but that's hypothetical. They aren't doing that. So still, nobody is being hurt by this and it's really not a big deal at all. And even if it was true, potentially losing a few sales is not the same thing as kicking someone in the ribs. I still say this entire story is overblown. It's a teeny license dispute, it's not newsworthy.
It's why so many of us only play PC games, you stupid ass.
Yes, but that's not relevant to the comment you were replying to. I posted that Microsoft's already implemented such a system for their Xbox console, and you replied with a list of reasons you play PC games instead of console games. That's a fine post, but it has NOTHING TO DO with the comment you were replying to, and it has nothing to do with Intel's new hardware designed to prevent cheating. It was entirely off-topic, especially ironic from someone with a link to posting guidelines in their sig. Thus my reply.
The only reason people were contributing was because of the license? Seriously? And now that the license is "under threat" people are going to stop contributing? Seriously?
Sorry, I'm not buying it. This is a minor, minor, license issue and nobody is being hurt. It's not newsworthy.
I think that was the origin of "Do not want," but it's in regular use on a ton of websites now, especially Fark.com where it's often used in comment threads and sometimes headlines. Also, a lot of "LOL Cat" images have incorporated it. It's just a popular meme at the moment.
... good for you? How is this relevant to anything?
Also, the mad dash to get new video cards is at least as bad as the mad dash to get new consoles and, if anything, happens far more often than new consoles come out. All you're saying is that you're no longer interested in being bleeding edge. That's fine, but don't make it sound like some holy mission from God or something.
Let's say I start beating the shit out of you, and you tell me to stop. Should I stop, or should I call my lawyer and wait a week for him to tell me it's OK to stop (during which time I'm still kicking you)? The correct answer is I should stop, and for that matter, I should never have started. My lawyer should have told me not to kick you in the first place.
Oh shut up. Distributing a very slightly modified version of a freely-available code library is about a 0.02 on the Scale Of Injustive. Kicking someone in the ribs is about a 7.4. It would be hard to come up with a more pointlessly absurd analogy.
Look, maybe they screwed up, maybe they didn't. If they did, well, guess what? Nobody's being hurt! Give them a few weeks and it'll get straightened out, and nobody will need orthopedic surgery. If they didn't, then this is a whole big stick about nothing (the Slashdot specialty.) The LGPL license is confusing and vague, and it's not a done deal that they're in violation of it.
Slashdot Mirror
Oh, well, I've tried Azureus and it's a steaming pile of crap UI-wise. So I guess that settles that: No SWT doesn't change my mind. Also since Azureus was mentioned in my first post, this was all a huge waste of time for everyone involved.
Azureus and Limewire are slow because of Azureus's and Limewire's code, not Java's. You cannot criticize the behavior of an entire programming environment based on the performance of two applications alone.
So what program should I use to form an opinion with?
I really have no use for an IDE. Is there any actual applications that use it?
Because I like windows and buttons?
Single-sided, POSIX comes out to less than 16 feet, .NET System to 40 feet. (Check my math.) And, again, the POSIX spec contains a lot more than just the kernel interface, and includes commentary and design rationales.
.NET System contains System.Windows.Forms (i.e. pretty much everything you need for a GUI app in Windows), it includes an XML parser, it includes all kinds of web libraries.
And
POSIX has none of those. It is truly an unfair comparison.
It's countered by two factors:
1) Development and distribution for Linux are much harder. There are no real killer GUI development tools like Visual Studio or XCode/Interface Builder, and even if there were you'd have a bunch of mostly equivalent but different APIs to choose from. Distributing a commercial non-open source app is a big pain because all the repository systems are designed for open source apps. If you distribute your app on CD, it's likely the installer you write to go with it will do something the repository doesn't know about and hose up the system.
2) Linux users don't pay for software. If they like the program, someone will just make an open source clone the next day and you'll be out of business again.
Or if you don't mind using a VB-alike language, you can license RealBasic which supports the same three platforms for, what, $550 a developer now?
Wow, are you seriously that self-delusional? You honestly think a 16x16 pixel mouse cursor is good enough on a 1680x1050 17" display? (Oh sure you can zoom in on it, but it doesn't do any smoothing so you end up with a hideous pixilated cursor.)
OS X badly, badly needs resolution independence. And unlike Windows and Linux, there's no way to manually change the DPI or fontsize for most text.
1999 called, and they want their Java criticism back. Besides, its not like C# will be any faster. Both C# and Java are JIT compiled languages that are run inside a virtual machine (JVM for Java vs. .Net CLR for C#).
Both Azureus and Limewire, again the two 'flagship' Java apps I've used to a large degree, are much laggier and perform much worse than native applications, at least on OS X. Period. That Java criticism from 1999 still applies today in 2007, and until it's fixed I don't expect that to change.
What amazes me more is that you don't realize that Java apps perform worse... either it's some kind of self-delusion, or an amazing lack of observational skills. Or maybe they're just bad on OS X and good on every other platform. I dunno.
C# apps might run inside a virtual machine, but they run quickly inside a virtual machine and it's impossible for the end-user to notice the difference between a native app and a C# app.
I honestly have no idea. I'm not a software developer and programs don't generally advertise that they use "SWT." So maybe I've tried it, and maybe I haven't.
Why don't you link me to a Java program that uses SWT so I can evaluate the quality of the program and answer your question?
Ditto Bungie's Marathon series. It came out after Doom (96, IIRC), but it was also designed for modding from the start with easily swappable and editable level, art, and sound files. (And the Physics file, that was a hoot.)
Are you joking? Daggerfall was a giant bug disguised as a videogame. It was impossible to navigate any of their fancy-schmancy auto-generated dungeons without falling through the floor. Stores were a complete joke, since you could just go into one, rest until the shopkeeper goes home, then take all you want with no consequences. After all the patches, it MIGHT be considered a passable game, but the dungeon bugs remained. (They just patched in cheat codes to get past the places where you fall through the ground.) Also: the graphics kind of sucked, but they were average for the time I suppose.
Meanwhile, the entire POSIX spec, suitable for fully implementing a POSIX system including the utility apps, with commentary and rationales for design decisions, fits in about two and a half feet of binders.
.net is doing.
The entire Windows API compared to POSIX? Talk about an unfair comparison.
Try comparing the entire Windows API with (for example) the entire OS X API. Or Linux including POSIX *and* GNOME. POSIX on its own may be fine for writing a simple CLI program, but it can't do a fourth of the stuff
Java is fine for CLI/Server apps, but for desktop apps it doesn't have a native look-and-feel on any platform, and it lacks integration with the OS.
I'm an OS X user, and on my computer Java apps can't use the built-in spellchecker, they can't use the Services menu, they can't interop with other applications using AppleEvents/AppleScript, the user can't drag&drop objects into or out of the application, etc. There are tons of shortcomings to GUI Java apps.
That aside, the "flagship" Java apps at the moment appear to be Limewire and Azureus. Both have overly complex hard-to-use GUIs and flaky behavior. (Not redrawing parts of the window correctly, opening windows in strange places and not where you expect, opening dialogs on a different monitor from the main app, etc.) If there were a few better examples of truly great Java apps out there, I'd probably be more able to recommend it.
(And notice I didn't even mention that they're molasses-slow.)
Also, a completely-open-in-the-FSF-sense iPhone would allow people to broadcast garbage over the GSM/WiFi antennae if they wanted to. It might not take down AT&T's entire west coast network, but it can make life difficult for people in the neighborhood.
It would also get it banned in many countries by using frequencies it's not supposed to be using, if the local version of the FCC caught one of those hacked iPhones in the act. It's not worth the risk to Apple.
Well, the license allows forking, so if that hypothetical situation occurred, they would be complying with the license. So what you're saying and what the parent is saying isn't mutually-exclusive. Which makes me wonder why you have an 'if' there.
Of course, it's all moot anyway, since Apple already has forked KHTML. It's called "Webkit", ever hear of it? It's even available on Windows now.
Who marks this stuff Insightful? Seriously? My cat is more insightful.
Slick Willy got a blowjob and it was the end of the world,
Uh, no. Slick Willy LIED UNDER OATH (it's called "perjury") and that was the end of the world. I don't know what crazy world you live in, but I think it's a pretty big deal when the President lies under oath, regardless of how petty the thing he was lying about.
With that explanation it's slightly relevant. But the original reply, sans that explanation, still has nothing to do with anything.
I say "slightly" because I never claimed that PC games don't need anti-cheating technology, so you're replying to an argument I didn't make.
Ok; but that's hypothetical. They aren't doing that. So still, nobody is being hurt by this and it's really not a big deal at all. And even if it was true, potentially losing a few sales is not the same thing as kicking someone in the ribs. I still say this entire story is overblown. It's a teeny license dispute, it's not newsworthy.
It's why so many of us only play PC games, you stupid ass.
Yes, but that's not relevant to the comment you were replying to. I posted that Microsoft's already implemented such a system for their Xbox console, and you replied with a list of reasons you play PC games instead of console games. That's a fine post, but it has NOTHING TO DO with the comment you were replying to, and it has nothing to do with Intel's new hardware designed to prevent cheating. It was entirely off-topic, especially ironic from someone with a link to posting guidelines in their sig. Thus my reply.
You stupid ass.
No.
The only reason people were contributing was because of the license? Seriously? And now that the license is "under threat" people are going to stop contributing? Seriously?
Sorry, I'm not buying it. This is a minor, minor, license issue and nobody is being hurt. It's not newsworthy.
I think that was the origin of "Do not want," but it's in regular use on a ton of websites now, especially Fark.com where it's often used in comment threads and sometimes headlines. Also, a lot of "LOL Cat" images have incorporated it. It's just a popular meme at the moment.
... good for you? How is this relevant to anything?
Also, the mad dash to get new video cards is at least as bad as the mad dash to get new consoles and, if anything, happens far more often than new consoles come out. All you're saying is that you're no longer interested in being bleeding edge. That's fine, but don't make it sound like some holy mission from God or something.
How are they being hurt?
Not physically, we can all agree on that.
Not monetarily, they give it all away anyway.
So how are they being hurt? Seriously.
Let's say I start beating the shit out of you, and you tell me to stop. Should I stop, or should I call my lawyer and wait a week for him to tell me it's OK to stop (during which time I'm still kicking you)? The correct answer is I should stop, and for that matter, I should never have started. My lawyer should have told me not to kick you in the first place.
Oh shut up. Distributing a very slightly modified version of a freely-available code library is about a 0.02 on the Scale Of Injustive. Kicking someone in the ribs is about a 7.4. It would be hard to come up with a more pointlessly absurd analogy.
Look, maybe they screwed up, maybe they didn't. If they did, well, guess what? Nobody's being hurt! Give them a few weeks and it'll get straightened out, and nobody will need orthopedic surgery. If they didn't, then this is a whole big stick about nothing (the Slashdot specialty.) The LGPL license is confusing and vague, and it's not a done deal that they're in violation of it.