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that's easy. by jetpack · 1999-12-11 05:11 · Score: 1 · on Life on the Moons of Jupiter?

I too can write an article that has so many obfuscated links that you are almost guaranteed to be confused. And make sure you follow all the links, otherwise you are sure to be lost at sea.

that's easy. by jetpack · 1999-12-11 05:11 · Score: 1 · on Life on the Moons of Jupiter?

I too can write an article that has so many obfuscated links that you are almost guaranteed to be confused. And make sure you follow all the links, otherwise you are sure to be lost at sea.

Not *just* the 60s, the same principles are true by lazarusL · 1999-12-01 05:20 · Score: 1 · on Anti-WTO Riot, State of Emergency in Seattle

"I cannot help but smile at the naivete that you show in lamenting that these protests turned "violent". This kind of thing happened in the '60s all the time,"

Yes in the '60s and in the '70s and in the '80s and in the '90s.

The last public protest in I was involved (a "peace" protest, ironically enough) also experienced attempts to inject violence. (A particular counter-protestor with a "USMC" t-shirt covering his beer belly comes to mind. heh) BTW, this was in 1999.

"with the cops instigating the violence at least as often as the protestors."

The fact that many of my fellow protestors have had specific training in de-escalation of violence is extremely significant in my eyes. While I must agree that the police are frequently the instigators of violence (perhaps because of their training, perhaps not) they are by no means always the "bad guys" in this regard. Yes there were men in suits and dark sunglasses photographing us that day (with no connection to the news media, also present.) Yes there were police present that day, and yes the tone changed as the police numbers increased significantly. But with proper training on the part of the protestors, such a presence does not need to end badly. AFAIR, the only arrest made that day was of a counter-protestor who had assaulted a "peacenik" protestor (and also apparently damaged some of her property.) Regardless of the individual or collective desires of the police, with the media cameras rolling and sufficient people taking notes, they will usually restrict themselves to legal actions.

Mind you, not all protestors are sufficiently aware of the underlying principles of course. (I had to remind one that the counter-protestors had every right to speak their minds and had to tell him that if he had attempted to disrupt the news media's attempt to interview one of them, I would feel obligated to switch to protesting his actions, rather than the original issue. Voltaire, anyone? :-) )

The point here is not that I'm such an enlightened person, (heh) but rather that, with proper training, problems can be averted.

...

"Perhaps this is our generation's "baptism of fire". Most of us have never seen a large-scale demonstration, let alone one that turned into a riot. A lot of people here are either shocked by the violence--like you--or disbelieving and blindly trusting in the police. In my opinion, both of these reactions are naive."

I'm not sure what "our generation" you refer to here, but perhaps you've just not exposed yourself to the right persons. I have many friends of all ages who are well-aware of the issues involved, through first-hand experience. But I do agree that speaking out against atrocities via public protest is much less prevalent than it was a few decades ago. Perhaps it is time for that to finally change?

The (frequently extensive) training for Non-Violent Civil Disobedience is extremely useful, not just within the context of CD, but also in settings such as the protest I mentioned above (which obviously was not intended to be an action involving CD.) I strongly encourage anyone to consider such training if they anticipate being involved in scenarios which have the potential for violence.

"As I say, perhaps this is our generation's baptism of fire. Perhaps, too, it will be a turning point in what has so far been general Dilbert-esque grumbling or just plain lying down over the abuses of corporate America. I hope so."

While I agree that "waking up" is in order ...

"Let us remember among the inevitably positive effects of greater protest that riots, too, are inevitable."

...I must disagree here. Training can (at the very least) minimize the likelihood. "Inevitable" is inaccurate, imo.

"Insofar as each of us is committed to peaceable conduct,"

Commitment to nonviolence is indeed important. Advance training is a good means of acting on that commitment.

BTW, was that tear gas comment the voice of experience speaking? ;-)