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Life on the Moons of Jupiter?
bcrafts writes "The ecological conditions in which microbes were found by researchers near the Antarctic underground freshwater Lake Vostok, have sparked more discussion inside of NASA, on a CNN report, other scientific groups,as well as other online sites about possible life on Jupiter's moon, Europa. "
life exists no where else in this universe, and in a few decades, it won't exist here either. who cares.
ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS, EXCEPT EUROPA. ATTEMPT NO LANDINGS THERE.
--
grappler
Vidi, Vici, Veni
How long so you think it would be before we can play a baseball game against their team?
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They should be pouring money into probes of Jupiter, because at least that planet and it's moon have at least some activity. Mars for all it's worth seems to be a dead planet. I'm not saying we'll find intelligent life in our own solar system, but it would be nice to try and find some life on a planet or moon that might be more capable of sustaining life than Mars?
Good is never enough, when you dream of being great!
Scientific American ran this as its cover story in its October 1999 issue. You guys should have picked it up from there, they write better stories than CNN.
One of them has to go
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In one of the Oddessy books (either 2010 or 2061, I don't remember which) by Arthur C. Clarke, didn't he put life on Europa? Some kind of plant things that lived under the frozen surface of the oceans, I think. I just thought I would point that out...
This space intentionally left blank.
but I think it bears repeating, so I'll say it again.
The discovery of life on Europa would more or less confirm the ubiquity of life. If microbes were found on Mars, they could have originated on Earth and moved to Mars (or vice versa), but the chances are low indeed (although admittedly not zero) of Earth and Europan life having a common origin.
Having said that...
The Vostok life forms show only that life can exist in such environments; it says nothing about life forming there. It may well be possible for existing life to adapt to a shitty environment (from our POV), but it would, to my untrained eye, be far more difficult for life to start there.
or else we might have some genocidal aliens commin into our solar system. i duno how those cute little microbes would handle being so close to a new sun ;)
Life exists on Jupiter's moons because we sent it there. "Clean rooms" do not keep _all_ microorganisms off of our space probes. Of course they could survive the journey there and maybe even start to reproduce.
Well, lets look at it that way. If life indeed somewhere else, which, it could accorind to theory, we could be reached very soon. Conditions for life to exist have been spotted throughout the evidence recently. Since the time it takes for life to develop is relatively small, in proportion to time the universe has existed and time it takes from the begining of a civilization to the time the civilization is able to reach other planets is relatively small too. Then, if all goes to theory we would be contacted by `aliens` and since no evidence exists that we have been, I think its not all this simple. Here's my $0.02
P.S. - this is borrowed from an intersting article I have found in a Russian scientific journal some time ago. Excuse spelling marks. Oh ya, this is one of the first posts too!
The problem is that our views on life a formed from what we see on Earth. In reality, the number of different conditions and ways that life can be formed is probably vastly higher than what we currently understand.
If they do find life there (and I am sceptical), it does make it a little more likely that ET life exists. Foolish comments above notwithstanding... I hope they find something more interesting than bacteria.
Ah yes, the fine line between "unravelling the mysteries of the cosmos, affording Man a greater understanding of the origins of life... itself!" and "incompetent bastards who repeatedly slam your tax dollars into distant planets"...
Europa has always been a possibility as Jupiters 2 outer moon. Europa is a world of ice basically. Its outer shell is that of ice clear of impact craters due to resolidifying ice after heated impact and it's inner is that of a vast ocean with a inner rocky ice core. Because of the water and a good bit of warmth caused by tidal forces for jupiter, Io, and Ganamede, it has good potential of sparking simple life such as single cell bacteria or algae. I think this will be most intersting in the years to come. From what I understand, there is a mission to land on Europa sometime soon. Anyway, we'll find out soon
January 17, 1997
Web posted at: 11:00 p.m.EST
btw...
This link (jpg 44K) shows a closer view of the moon Europa orbiting Jupiter.
I'm not impressed. Every spot on this globe has been through dramatic climactic changes over geological time. At more than one point, Lake Vostok was swamplike, teeming with life.
But life surviving inhospitable environments is very different from life evolving in such places. Has anyone a theory that Europa was once warmer, with sufficient sunlight? Or maybe ejecta from Earth impactors has transported life elsewhere?
-- Robert
Hmmm, the season finale should be coming up soon, the last one took place 2000 years ago in the Jerusalem area.
If life goes there, the ratings are going to soar!
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It has all the water you could possible want! Ever! And its closer, and thus not as cold.
The way I see it, having a base on Europa would be quite similar to having a base on antarctica (I just *know* I spelled that wrong :o) , except its a lot harder to get to. And you need to bring your atmosphere with you. And there isn't as much gravity. And, um... Jupiters gravity could screw you over a little bit (Don't even get me *started* on Io...) And... actually it isn't all that much like having a base on antarctica at all.
But my point remains valid, as soon as I actually remember what it was...
Shawn Poulsen (Fruan)
"On Slashdot, many obvious things are insightful." - Annonymous Coward, 2000/7/9
Hmmm, the season finale should be coming up soon, the last one took place 2000 years ago in the Jerusalem area.
If life goes there, the ratings are going to soar!
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Whether or not we find life on Europa, I think we should carry out a mission to "infect" Europa with genetically engineered microbes and let evolution do its work. Why not infect Venus, Mars, and lots of the moons of Jupiter and Saturn? Earth is a fungi and we should be spreading the spores.
Do we all not remember when we discovered micro organisms on Mars? I don't believe we cared. I wouldn't think we'd see anything special at this time, Earth is the only terraformed planet in this Galaxy, but if life exists elsewhere, it may be a clue that it will happen again, soon (being a few billion years). Until then, how about we try and get something far into another universe for research?
-FweE-
life isn't a miracle, its inevitable...
Which I beleive to be true. Are there micro-organisms in Europa's oceans? probably... Does it really matter?... I don't think so.
It is clear to me that there are no planets in our solar system capable of supporting macro-cellular life...
Having said this, it *will* be interesting to see how life formed on other planets.
It is also useful from a historic point of view: very little is known about the Earth's early history. Europa's planetary conditions may mimic conditions on Earth 4bn years ago, in which case this could teach us about life on Earth.
Across the Universe
Words are flying out like endless rain into a paper cup,
They slither while they pass, they slip away across the universe.
Pools of sorrow waves of joy are drifting through my open mind,
Possessing and caressing me.
Jai Guru De Va Om
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world.
Images of broken light which dance before me like a million eyes,
That call me on and on across the universe,
Thoughts meander like a restless wind
Inside a letter box they
Tumble blindly as they make their way
Across the universe
Jai Guru De Va Om
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world.
Sounds of laughter shades of earth are ringing
Through my open views inciting and inviting me.
Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns,
It calls me on and on across the universe
Jai Guru De Va Om
Nothing's gonna change my world
Nothing's gonna change my world.
Okay, people, this is pretty cool. These microbes can survive at conditions similar to those we expect on Europa, assuming the presence of water, which seems extremely likely now. But what difference does it make if we humans never manage to get further than the moon? This is just another reason we should get off our butts and start taking space travel seriously. The study of life from another planet would be so valuable to mankind that no expense would be unwarranted -- imagine the advances we could make in understanding our own life forms, if Europan life had significally different genes or followed a different genetic code, with the unique ribosomes required for it's reproduction, we may be able to understand life on a completely different level.
--
"Why, oh why didn't I take the blue pill?"
Sunlight is not a requirement for life, the rich life surrounding underwater volcanoes proves that.
:)
If Europa has seas (of liquid water) and volcanic activity, I would bet my money that it has at least bacteria. But is it warm enough?
"Scientists say Europa's surface may be as warm as 0 degrees F.,"
"Located 5 times farther from the Sun than Earth, Europa is too cold, measured at -230 degrees Fahrenheit (-145 degrees Celsius), to support life as we know it."
So, in short, we don't have a clue.
I think it would be incredibly cool to discover geothermal vents at the bottom of the lake. Similar vents (black smokers) exist in the open ocean and support entire ecosystems that live independant of the sun's energy.
I'm not sure how much energy a typical black smoker puts out. It might be too much to account for all of the ice surrounding Lake Vostok. Anyhow, I think it would be incredibly cool to find any kind of life down there. How about sending down an ROV with cameras? Photographs from the bottom of Lake Vostok, wooh!
This is exactly why "faster, cheaper, better" is a good idea. The failure rate does not change, and they lose less each failure. But of course "faster cheaper better" does not apply to manned spaceflight. (n.b. I'm not flaming you, you probably agree, but I want this message to go out...) cheers...
--
I am quite civilized, and I should be brought a beer immediately. -- Bruce Sterling
We've known for decades that life can develop in some of the most hostile environments known to man. From the hottest, driest desert, to the deepest depths of the ocean, and even in sulfur-laden and extremely "toxic" areas by undersea lava vents, there is life. And not just the odd creature or two. Every environment on earth (with perhaps the exception of the interior of active volcanos) is TEAMING with life. Fifty years ago, suggesting life existed in some of these places made you a crackpot. Now that we've found life in almost every imaginable environement on earth, why does thinking that equally complex and sophisticated ecosystems have developed in not just a few places in the Universe besides Earth still make you an extremist? I think it's time for the establishment to encourage a little more free-thinking among the scientific research community. There is NO environment on Earth that is truly lifeless. Why would any other planet be much different?
--- --- --- Don't just do something! Sit there!
Read 2010: Odyssey Two, Chapter 11: Ice and Vacuum.
He describes a very interesting creature uniquely adapted to the harsh cold and explains how it could have evolved there.
Yes, it *is* science fiction, but remember that this is Clarke, who loves throwing facts and theories into the writing. It does make it that much more interesting. Try reading "Ghost off the Grand Banks", where he describes a lot about offshore oil drilling and the Hibernia rig only recently completed near here, the Mandelbrot set including the history of it with some very good explanations, plus a lot of discussion on ways to possibly raise the Titanic.
Asimov is good like that as well. I remember reading his retelling of "The Goose That Laid Golden Eggs" from a chemist's point of view. That one fictional short story made chemistry make so much sense that I really started getting interested in it. Now I have a bit of a chemistry lab here sharing space with electronics and computer equipment.
Oh yeah, highly recommended Asimov non-fiction: "The Relativity of Wrong." It's a collection of essays on a myriad of topics. They're quite witty, too. He exhibits a bit of a Dave Barry-ish style in a couple of places. I learned a lot from that book, and the title essay, "The Relativity of Wrong," is very cool.
Ok, got a little off-topic there, but these books were, I think, some of the most important I have ever read.
Nature has a way of surprising us - after all, who thought that we'd find life forms which could survive in nuclear waste, extremely toxic chemical environments or extremely high temperature environments? It's not much of a stretch to imagine something like existing anaerobic bacteria with greater radiation tolerance...
Heck, the Chicago Cubs might actually have a fighting chance against against fledgling microbial life forms.
January 17, 1997 Web posted at: 11:00 p.m. EST This isn't the first time this has happened heh :P
At least that's what the Dutch people call this continent.
Europa may be cold on the surface but it
is possible that in the core it's much hotter due
to the gravity of Jupiter "kneeding" the water and
heating it up. On earth we have tides from the
moon's gravity. On Europa the tides could be
strong enough to actually heat up it's core by
friction. The heat caused by that might be enough
to allow life, however primitive, to survive.
does anyone seem concerned about the financial prospects for a mission, given nasa's recent success rate? or would this be the time for a private company to stand up to the task? maybe someone could tell bill gates that europa doesn't have windows yet.
If microbes were found on Mars, they could have originated on Earth and moved to Mars (or vice versa), but the chances are low indeed (although admittedly not zero) of Earth and Europan life having a common origin.
I couldn't help but read that last sentance as "[T]he chances are low indeed of Earth and European life having a common origin."
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
Didn't you read the theory of Deep life earlier on /.?
And how about underwater vents? I haven't seen a chain of thought of how those got colonized.
Underwater vents would be very plausible on Europa.
And this is old news, plenty of fiction stories have been written on this theory. I haven't seen big advances in our knowledge, stuff that would prove/disprove it. Sulfuric life on Io, and underwater vent worms on Europa. And possibly stuff on Titan (lots of air cover to keep us from seeing them).
-- Ender, Duke_of_URL
Some people here seem to think that we should explore Jupiter's Moons rather than Mars. I agree that the prospects of finding something interesting (life ?) on the moons seem to be, right now, much higher. But keep in mind that this is only a single discovery, which highlights the possibility of life in strange environements which Europa might or might not have.
:) I don't think that the budget of NASA can sustain focused exploration of both planets..
However, I believe that there are several advantages to the exploration of Mars first. Remember that Europa is 100 times smaller than the Earth. Europa could not possibly support human life. Mars could. Therefore, it would be much more interesting to have a base on Mars than to have a base on Europa.
Mars is also much nearer to us - it takes what, 3 or 4 years at full speed to get to Jupiter. Our technology is much closer to allowing us to do productive exploration of Mars. I'm not against exploring Europa and the other moons of Jupiter in the future, but right now we should focus on what we already begun: the Exploration of Mars.
What do you think ? Or should we just scrap the Mars project and go to Jupiter right away
how would it get there? I doubt Earth life could have come from rocks, or from an extremely cold lake. It had to arise somewhere where there was lots of water, energy, and nutrients. It is possible that life could have arrived there by meteor, though. (In fact, some argue that life on Earth probably comes from space because it is so difficult for a planet to create life on its own)
The shareholder is always right.
we, on the other hand, decided to change the definition because basing all "life" in the universe on our planet would be self centered. ;-)
we decided to use the idea of entropy. as entropy increases (disorder), heat is given off (general thermodynamics). if one could measure heat changes in a sample of space material from the planet in question and somehow filter out heat given off by exothermic chemical reactions, one could establish a criteria for finding life on other planets that doesn't have to follow the "cell as the basis of life" theory. of course, this was a trivial highschool idea, but it seems to make perfect sense. living things have to utilize environmental energy to survive, and one of the by products of that usage should be heat (or a positive entropy). why couldn't this work? and its less limited than saying all life has to have cells, uses water, and is made of some formation of carbon .... comments?
saugar maripuri
saugar@yahoo.com
fat-time charlie wobbled down the street with his lubricating midget rapid fire pellet gun tucked comfortable under his arm. with his large, sausage of a free hand he reached behind him and pulled up his oversized pants.
ahead, he noticed a tall, thin man with long blonde hair waving a book in the air. fat-time approached him, "howdy, whatcha got there?"
"this is the oldest open source book known to man, brother. it's the holy bible. king james version."
"gee!" fat-time's eyes widened, "what's in it?!"
"it tells the story of all man kind, brother. it says we are the center of the universe and god created the world for us. we are his only children. rejoice, brother!"
a tear rolled down fat-time's fleshy cheek, "god bless you sir!"
"and god bless you, brother," the man yelled, as fat-time ambled on his way.
"when can we get some cheese, charlie," the midget begged.
"hang on a sec, lubie, let me stop and buy a paper from this gentleman here. maybe i can find a superhero adventure in there."
fat-time shuffled up to the newspaper salesman standing on the street corner, "what's happenin' in the world today, sir?"
the newspaper salesman adjusted his hat to shade his eyes from the glare of the morning sun, "why, they've gone and found life on another world! europa... a moon of jupiter!"
fat-time's face grew red, like a giant ball of uncooked hamburger, "you blaspheming bastard!"
fat-time grabbed the legs of his lubricating midget rapid fire pellet gun and unleashed a torrent of death pellets onto the saleseman.
the salesman crumpled to the ground in a quivering heap of unviable flesh.
fat-time tucked a newspaper under his free arm, "now, let's go get some cheese."
thank you.
Ever since the common 'holy' spirit has begun to fade, people forgot the whole universe is life in itself.
;-)
Earth is alive. Sun is life. Moon too. Different tho.
Ever tried to send a spaceship to mars to check out the hood?
Every ancient Roman could have told you it is the planet
of war and death, which is part of life as well.
It's all life. Isn't it nice
So, let's cut these stupid programs which bring forth nothing but wasted breath.
"Scientists at the Oversea Laboratory, in Glurgleplic's Crater, have long been researching the question of whether there is life on the third planet from the Sun, Arret. Now, their latest findings suggest that there may indeed be life, but that it's probably very simple. Studies by the group have found that bipedal life can survive such harsh conditions. Radio astronomers have detected modulated radiation from the planet, but discount it's significance. 'There is no intelligent content in any of the radio emissions', one of the scientists said."
"Not all scientists agree, though. 'A very highly amplified EMR scan shows the occasional image of a clearly aquatic life-form, with a white belly, yellow feet and a yellow mouth. This image is usually near the symbols TUX. That some life there is clearly capable of seeing the majesty and excellence of aquatic life of this form is a clear sign of some measure of intelligence."
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Okay. Just... ummm... don't land there. Last thing we need is another disease. :\
I too can write an article that has so many obfuscated links that you are almost guaranteed to be confused. And make sure you follow all the links, otherwise you are sure to be lost at sea.
If I lived in a place like Europa, I'd want to leave. That's probably why all the microbes moved to earth. Do you have any idea how *cold* it is out there?!
On the next fantastic episode of Rocky and Bullwinkle, "Life on the Moons of Jupiter?" or "How to distract the media from your failures - A NASA publication"..
--- Stampede linux for me! I play with fire to break the ice..
If you are willing to accept the possibility of earth and mars haveing a common life origin, presumably via impact crater ejecta, then you believe that life could survive the freezing vacuum of space and the ionizing radiation from the sun.
It then follows that life-containing material ejected from earth could have landed on europa.
If you accept this line of thinking then it is likely that all life in the solar system could have a common origin in being derived from ejecta from planets in distant solar systems and thus may not have arisin on earth in the first place.
We are aliens!
no sig.
Earth all-stars baseball tac team vs. slimy 35-cm-in-diameter tin-foil-wearing heptapods from Europa! A fight of the century! Stay tuned! Stay alert! Watch out for those gooey curveballs!
-What, you didn't bring your space suit with you?
-No, I thought I was going to France...
-Oh well, hold your breath then.
-Whaa
(sound of airlock opening, a distant "pop" and many tiny red globules floating around)
-
What's the matter with Slashdot? Life on Europa? That's old news, I have shows from years ago on this, sure maybe it's a new article on CNN or whatever but it's still old news and we should all know about it by now... This isn't the first article either, this week alone there have been at least 14 articles containg information at least 1 month old. I say everyone on /. should watch Discovery/TLC channel 24x7 then we wont post such old news. Speaking of Discovery channel, remember March 2000, they are airing the raising of that frozen mammoth!
I BE RAISING THE ROOF FOOL.
everyone is implying that life started on earth and got ejected onto mars/europa - clearly, it is the other way around. life started on europa, and got spewed all over the solar system.
--
;)
i browse at -1 because they're funnier than you are.
The hell with probes to Mars, Jupiter is a much better planet:
1) Bigger target to hit
2) Fewer Martians
3) More gravity, so our probes can crash faster and we don't have to go through that long, painful "it might be in safe-mode..." period.
All in all, I think it's the only reasonable choice.
So I say write your Congressman: Mars is old hat, we want our probes crashed into Jupiter!
Is sending probes and suchlike to Europa really a good idea? Consider:
If Europa can sustain life, it's quite possible there is life there. Possibly some sort of dolphin-like species? With several billion years of time, there's no reason that intelligent life couldn't have developed. Just look at Earth. If Europans are on a par with or more advanced than us, then they will probably understand what those bizarre contraptions drilling holes in the sky are. But if these hypothetical life forms are less advanced than us, or more superstitious, we could have a drastic effect not only on their technological advancement but on their society and mythology.
Wouldn't it be great to visit Europa in several hundred years and find them all worshipping the great messiah NASA...
No...Star Trek flashbacks...argh...
===
-Ravagin
Karma: T-rexcellent.
All is one, here and now.
Actually I believe that lake Vostok is a lake of melted ice completely encapsulated inside of a glacier. The pressure of being under 4 km of ice causes it to melt at that depth. Therefore it would have never be "swamplike, teeming with life". Any life there would have had to have been deposited on the surface ice and then been covered over with layer after layer of ice for eons. Surviving the whole time.
Actually, Titan is FURTHER from Earth than Europa is. Titan is a Saturnian moon, and it has liquid ammonia, not water. And since it's further, it's also colder - especially considering that it doesnt benefit from the gravitational warming that Europa does (Saturn's gravity is much weaker than Jupiter's). Yes, Titan has an atmosphere, but it's mostly ammonia as well. Any life that may exist there would be radically different from life as we know it.
life exists no where else in this universe, and in a few decades, it won't exist here either. who cares.
Are we having a bad day today? (-:
We have not seen life anywhere else in the universe. This does not mean that there is none, even though the odds against any life forming anywhere in this universe given any number of billions of years are just ridiculously high (we're talking at least tens or hundreds of thousands of orders of magnitude against).
Have we the arrogance to say that something doesn't exist simply because it doesn't do what we expect it to?
Of course we do!
Many people say that God doesn't exist simply because He won't submit Himself to scrutiny at our pleasure. This involves ignoring truckloads of not-so-subtle hints observable in nature. But what use would a pocket God whom we control be? Shall the creation control the Creator? The tail wag the dog? Not mine.
As for who cares, I do. Enum, there is a life out there waiting for you. Go get it!
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
As long as chemical reactions can take place, there is probably a chance for some sort of life (says the non-biologist who has merely read a book or two :) ).
Let's make the entire universe out of the 20 universal useful amino acids, one for each atom. Thats 10^80 molecules. Ignore the effects of distance, so that every molecule can "see" every other molecule. Assume that they've got correct chirality (twistedness). Assume that there is no decay process, that the aminos only bond the right way around, and that non-useful bonds instantly break. Interact these molecules a billion times each second for the last 20 billion years.
Stop and think about how favourable to life our assumptions are. For example, the universe is 99% hydrogen, distance exists, and decay does happen. Never mind - press on!
Let's take this bloody huge "warm pond" and make a single, extremely small 100-mer protein in it (one only, with means of support or reproduction). On yer marks... get set... go!
20 aminos ^ 100 bonds = 1.26E141 interactions to make a protein, on average; 20 GA = 6.31E17 seconds to interact in; * 1E9 interactions per second (wheeeee...!) * 1E80 molecules interacting = 6.31E107 interactions total.
Dividing interactions needed by interactions total yields: 2E23 universe lifetimes under ridiculously favourable conditions to get even odds of one small protein molecule by accident. Would you bet on a horse against odds like that?
Let's not talk about a whole DNA string, shall we? The novelty of playing with bc wears off after a while. (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Animals are multicellular. They only unicellular animals I know about are zygotes and other immature forms.
You should have written "Bacteria count as life." "Bacteria" is a plural word.
They did not find bacteria from Mars. They found little formations in the meteorite that they claimed looked bacterial. Find the pictures. From my viewing, the photographs do not show bacteria or their remnants.
I can imagine a bacterium surviving a long period of time in a vacuum, especially if it was encased in rock or a chunk of ice.
But I'm not sure how many hours or weeks a bacterium would survive cosmic rays. And when you consider the millions of years that most meteorites require to find their way between planets, I'd be willing to hedge my bets that anything falling from the sky will be sterile.
Taking that into account, any life found on a planet likely originated on that planet.
My 2 kopecks.
Could somebody moderate cow's... err... intelligent post down, please? I haven't got any moderator points today, but posts like that don't deserve to stay at 0.
-jacob
Sounds like college to me...
Actually, the data I have says Europa is tidally locked to Jupiter. Much like our own moon is to us. So there is no longer any tidal "kneeding" to provide heat on Europa. Of course, there still could be radioactive decay.
-- Robert
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast10dec 99_2.htm
-Aerowolf
I think I've been watching too much scifi lately. I thought this was an advertisement to actually live on the moons of Jupiter.
Well as you can imagine, many news sources the next day reported about the newly discovered life on Europa, and the JPL people had to do another quick press conference straightening things out.
Even though it wasn't JPL's fault, scientists do need to be careful with what they say and how they say it. While is was clear to me then that he was only talking about his personal belief, he should have realized that some reporter only 1/2 listening was bound to get it wrong, as so many (practically ALL) reporters do when reporting on matters of science and technology.
And much like that scientist from JPL, I have a suspicion that life exists beneath the ice.
Ignore Alien Orders
Bah humbug
.. maybe Australia!
Crazy kids thinkin it would be great to get to Europa.. back in my day we didn't have these fancy shmancy spaceships to do our interplanetary and intergalactic travelling. We had to do it the old fashioned way -- walking, or riding our bikes.
Why, with all of your airplanes and rocket ships you should be able to make it at LEAST to Andromedda, if not
Kids these days..
Jupiter and its moons are always a fun telescope target. Tonight we had unusually clear and steady skies, which make it easier to clearly see surface details such as the latitudinal cloud bands, the Great Red Spot (or more appropriately for the amateur observer, the Great Pale Spot), and cloud festoons in the temperate belts. Saturn was also magnificent as well, with its moons Titan, Rhea, Tethys, Dione, and Iapetus clearly visible. Mimas and Enceladus were near the visual observation limit, though I managed to briefly glimpse them using averted vision. Uranus and Neptune, both currently in Capricorn, now set too early to allow serious telescopic observation, but when they're available, they're fun to look at too. On good nights, their largest moons (Titania and Triton) are resolvable from my backyard.
I know I'm not the only amateur astronomer that has a planet fetish. I spend about as much time looking at the planets in the solar system as I do looking at everything else combined(galaxies, open/globular clusters, nebulae, supernova remnants, etc.) While looking at Jupiter, Europa, Io, Callisto, and Ganymede tonight, I was reminded of the things that Arthur C. Clarke postulated in 2010: Odyssey Two, and lo and behold, when I check Slashdot, there's an article about possible life on Europa along with comments that reference Clarke's work.
Anyway, to get this more on-topic, I've always wondered what sort of experiments could be performed to test for life on Europa. The type of life that is postulated by current theories would reside far below the icy surface of the moon, near the theoretical surface vents fueled by the tidal kneading of Europa's parent and neighbors. I haven't read up a whole lot on the details of the future Europa missions, but it would be interesting to find out exactly what sort of scientific experiments are being planned.
We're going down, in a spiral to the ground
Also, "Fly Like An Eagle" was written by a man named "Seal."
I'll get flamed for this, but maybe if you people devoted a little bit more of your time to Jesus and a little bit less of your time to pie-in-the-sky things like the "moons" of Jupiter, the world would be a better place. There are better things to spend money on. (Hint: sending billion-dollar spaceships to other planets only to have them crash is not a good use of money.)
Had to be said.
This is an interesting idea, but it has a few flaws that need to be worked out.
:), but a lot of the captured solar radiation is used to do things like grow the roots, branches, leaves, and seeds. Doing these things are all increases in local entropy. This is energy which will never make it back into the universe.
:) (It's not in their textbooks :)... you needed Steve Wozniak as a teacher :)
:)
Just to clarify that I understand what you're saying: you state (correctly) that life increases the entropy (orderliness) of an open system, and heat can measure this increase in entropy.
First problem: you can't use heat to measure entropy in the way that you say.
What actually happens is that a life-bearing planet will give off *less* heat than a similar planet without life.
When plants capture the sun's rays and use that energy to photosynthesize, they are not *not* bouncing that energy back into space. Eventually, a chunk of that energy is radiated back out (body heat
Give it to highschool teachers not to pick this up
HOWEVER, this does lead to an alternate testing method: what if the planet is radiating *less* energy than expected? We could conclude then, that the rest of the energy is being trapped by life-as-we-know-it, or something other process which uses solar energy to increase entropy (because, what else are you going to do with energy?
This might work (pardon me if this is what you were suggesting), but it won't work for Europa. Why? Two reasons:
First, we already know life is *not* widespread on Europa (more on this below). This means that Europan (heh) life doesn't use very much energy - maybe small enough not to be detected using current technology.
Second, the kind of enery Europan life is beleived to use is volcano (internal) energy rather than solar energy.
We have to look for other methods. One method for checking entropy is rather easier than looking at the amount of heat radiated. It's the method that also tells us that life is not widespread in Europa.
This method is looking at the atmosphere. Most planets have a "chemically balanced" low-entropy atmosphere. Earth does not. Our atmosphere is >20% oxygen - a highly reactive gas. Were it not for trees replenishing the O2 in the atmosphere, the amount of O2 would decline rapidly.
This is not to say that we must look for O2 atmospheres for life as we know it, but rather, just look for any high-entropy chemically unstable atmoshere... this might be easier to detect than looking for heat radiated.
But this can only show us planets that are *teeming* with life. To find a few specks of life on Europa, we'd probably have to wait until we visit it....
If they play baseball, we should exterminate them. ;)
America will destroy itself and fall appart like the roting pile of shit that it is... AMD!
molniya means lightning in Russian
Mars has almost no water, except perhaps around the poles or deep-underground permafrost.
Europa probably has oceans full of water.
So Europa is probably friendlier in one important way. Lots colder, but maybe fusion energy will be available by the time we're finally ready to send people there.
With this in mind, could these be ways to detect life? Either to look for pockets of matter that are highly ordered amidst pockets of matter that have high disorder, or to look for phenomena that are at steady state, not at equilibrium?
Anyways, how do you even define a lifeform? News websites say they require water, but that lacks imagination and strikes me as a statement to please masses.
If I remember my 9th grade science correctly a lifeform is defined as a collection of matter that consumes, grows, reproduces, eliminates waste and dies. Though I suppose each of those verbs are open to interpretation, it's a fairly straight forward definition.
Hit water at 500 mph. It's as giving as concrete. Same applies to gas. Especially gas under pressure, how do you think we lost the last probe? And there is solid stuff in the middle of Jupiter, just no way for us to get to it until we develop forcescreens.
-- Ender, Duke_of_URL
They should be pouring money into probes of Jupiter
I respectfully must disagree. I think they should be pouring money into probes of Uranus!