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That's the price category you really have to look at. Laptops around 900EUR. A quick search of one of the online shops I use gives me this: Lenovo Ideapad 520s-14IKB: Intel Core i7-7500U Processor // 8 GB RAM // 256GB SSD // 14" at 1920x1080 for a whopping 849EUR.

Sure, it's a normal laptop and it runs Windows 10, but the resolution is okay, it's got enough RAM and a decent processor. I also understand that the iPad Pro 10,5" comes with a 2224x1668 resolution, so that is indeed better than the Lenovo I picked. Personally, I'd pick the Lenovo any day over the iPad Pro.

My point being: You cannot compare an iPad Pro to the sub-400EUR laptops. If you are in a sub-400EUR budget, you don't buy new. You buy refurb, and get yourself a business class laptop. A Lenovo X220 can be had for less than 200EUR, with a Sandy Bridge i5, 4GB RAM and a spinning disk. Add in another 200EUR to upgrade the RAM and get an SSD and you get much better value for that 400EUR that anything new on the market... or any iPad... for the matter. Granted, you are stuck with 1366x786 on most of those refurbs, but you wouldn't get anything better in the 400EUR budget class any way.

Well, you could look into Chinese brands, but they are a whole different kettle of worms (even though I would recommend them in some use-cases)

The A series have terribly slow cores that aren't much better than Atom cores.

Citation needed. The cores are based on the Mobile Phenom II architecture Llano. In Benchmarks the A6-3650 ranks around a Phenom II X4. While this is not top of the line, it's pretty decent power.

Atoms aren't even in the same ballpark. Perhaps you are thinking of the E-350, which is in the Atoms league but with better graphics? Try even finding Atom motherboard supporting SATA3, USB3 and 16GB RAM (many of the FM1 motherboards support up to 64GB RAM!)

FM1 is a dead end

So what? Intel switches sockets more often than its underwear. In this price category, upgradeability doesn't matter much. These kind of machines get built, used, and replaced. Never upgraded.

Even the i3 stomps the A8's wimpy cores.

... but you'd have to buy a graphics card. Intel isn't exactly known to have snappy graphics. Depending on your workload, more cores might be better. I was surprised, though, to see that motherboards for Intel CPU have become much cheaper. Last time, I checked most motherboards for Intel CPUs were massively more expensive. Coupled with a more expensive CPU, this made the platform uninteresting for budget computers.

A year ago, the competing i3s were slower too and the price of the motherboards were higher. Back then the An series were much better bang/buck.

The modern i3s are much faster (especially per core). Still, the cheapest i3 I can find (i3-2120) is 112.90€. That's 26€ more expensive than the A6-3650 I quoted. To have an equivalent motherboard, I'll stay within brand (Gigabyte) and set as conditions 4 RAM slots (as 4x4GB is cheapest today), SATA3, USB3. The cheapest here is GIGABYTE GA-B75M-D3H at 83.90€, which admittedly is 16€ cheaper and 2x8GB kit RAM DDR3-1333 from ADATA (67.98€) which is identical to my original quote. Overall cost of the i3 platform is thus indeed just 10€ more expensive. As said, this is mainly because motherboard prices became much lower than in the past. So, yes, you pay 4% more, for a 17% CPU power increase (based on passmark value). In the graphics department, the view is much less rosy (again, according to passmark values): the HD 6530D in the AMD A6-3650 delivers more than double the performance of the Intel i3 HD 2120. You'll have to compensate that with a graphics card, which costs money and east power and most likely has an additional fan and is thus louder.

One needs to look at the complete platform and decide what is more important. I guess the budget conscious gamer would be better off with the i3/Graphics card combo. The budget conscious occasional gamer, is probably better of with the AMD An processors. The budget conscious office dweller: i3 with integrated graphics.

a lot of buyers were very disappointed in the performance once purchased.

I wasn't and most reviews I read were actually quite positive. You don't expect i5 or i7 performance from these kind of CPUs. What I got was silence, enough power to have headroom and decent graphics all for a decent price.

AMD A8 (and A6 and A4) have a graphics core on board. Those graphics cores even are quite sufficient for non-hardcore gaming. I'm a fan of the FM1 platorm, and think it is way underrated. It has decent processing power, decent graphics, is very quiet (even with stock cooler) and not expensive at all. Example: A6-3650 (86.90€), 2x8GB kit RAM DDR3-1333 from ADATA (67.98€), motherboard GIGABYTE GA-A75-D3H (99.90€). That's quite some power for 254.78€ (including taxes, excluding shipping -- prices taken at Alternate). Like many of us, we just reuse the disk and the case we already own. There is no need for a graphics card in such a system, unless you're a hardcore gamer.

Try buying a Atom D5xx based machine and see if it comes with DVI. Yes, HDMI, if you're lucky... Intel D525MW is the "top of the line Atom" (okay, I know, you know what I mean). VGA-out only.

Many lower-end motherboards with integrated graphics ship VGA-only... Got a Dell last fall for work and of course there was no budget. Skimped everywhere... VGA-only...

Celerons are their extreme budget brand. $40-50 (only sold to OEMs).

Sounds incorrect. I can get a Celeron here. Not that I'd ever buy a Celeron or a Pentium. Those names are tarnished for me.

Yes, but I have to clarify. We are talking about Intel boards. While they have a reputation for great stability, their motherboards on the low-end are definitely under-featured. You can't find Intel Atom boards (I'm talking boards from Intel that feature an Atom processor, not as in "Intel Atom CPU") with more than two SATA ports, and the VGA issue, of course. I think they are scared shitless about the Atoms eating in their low-end Core i3 segment. Sure, the i3 is much more powerful, but an Atom D525MW can be had for 65€, add in two sticks of 2GB RAM at 18€. That's 83€, add in a small form factor case, a small harddisk or tiny SSD and you've got yourself a nitfy dual core desktop that suffices entirely for normal desktop activity. The cheapest i3 CPU, I could find was 75€ on itself.

To put a (modern) Atom-based machine in perspective. An Atom D525 performs just a bit worse on benchmarks (like Passmark) than the "beast" I built in 2003: an Athlon MP 2400+: Atom D525 versus Athlon MP 2400+

. Just note that the MP still makes a quite worthy desktop, at least for my needs.

I haven't seen an E-350 without DVI either (motherboards, laptops/netbooks are a different story), but they really can't be had as cheap as what Intel delivers with the Atoms.

You can get Atom-based motherboards with DVI and/or HDMI, but they won't be Intel boards.

Yes, but I have to clarify. We are talking about Intel boards. While they have a reputation for great stability, their motherboards on the low-end are definitely under-featured. You can't find Intel Atom boards (I'm talking boards from Intel that feature an Atom processor, not as in "Intel Atom CPU") with more than two SATA ports, and the VGA issue, of course. I think they are scared shitless about the Atoms eating in their low-end Core i3 segment. Sure, the i3 is much more powerful, but an Atom D525MW can be had for 65€, add in two sticks of 2GB RAM at 18€. That's 83€, add in a small form factor case, a small harddisk or tiny SSD and you've got yourself a nitfy dual core desktop that suffices entirely for normal desktop activity. The cheapest i3 CPU, I could find was 75€ on itself.

To put a (modern) Atom-based machine in perspective. An Atom D525 performs just a bit worse on benchmarks (like Passmark) than the "beast" I built in 2003: an Athlon MP 2400+: Atom D525 versus Athlon MP 2400+

. Just note that the MP still makes a quite worthy desktop, at least for my needs.

I haven't seen an E-350 without DVI either (motherboards, laptops/netbooks are a different story), but they really can't be had as cheap as what Intel delivers with the Atoms.

You can get Atom-based motherboards with DVI and/or HDMI, but they won't be Intel boards.

Yes, but I have to clarify. We are talking about Intel boards. While they have a reputation for great stability, their motherboards on the low-end are definitely under-featured. You can't find Intel Atom boards (I'm talking boards from Intel that feature an Atom processor, not as in "Intel Atom CPU") with more than two SATA ports, and the VGA issue, of course. I think they are scared shitless about the Atoms eating in their low-end Core i3 segment. Sure, the i3 is much more powerful, but an Atom D525MW can be had for 65€, add in two sticks of 2GB RAM at 18€. That's 83€, add in a small form factor case, a small harddisk or tiny SSD and you've got yourself a nitfy dual core desktop that suffices entirely for normal desktop activity. The cheapest i3 CPU, I could find was 75€ on itself.

To put a (modern) Atom-based machine in perspective. An Atom D525 performs just a bit worse on benchmarks (like Passmark) than the "beast" I built in 2003: an Athlon MP 2400+: Atom D525 versus Athlon MP 2400+

. Just note that the MP still makes a quite worthy desktop, at least for my needs.

I haven't seen an E-350 without DVI either (motherboards, laptops/netbooks are a different story), but they really can't be had as cheap as what Intel delivers with the Atoms.

You can get Atom-based motherboards with DVI and/or HDMI, but they won't be Intel boards.

Sorry, for the double post. I see now why you pitted a Netbook against a P-IV which vastly outclassed it. This stems from my statement:

The CPU power of even these crappy-low-end-cheap Atoms beat most P-IV CPUs

That statement was pretty clumsy. I actually meant that all current Atoms are crappy-low-end-and-cheap (compared to anything else you can buy these days), not that the crappiest Atoms would match a P-iV. They definitely can't, especially not the single-core ones present in Netbooks. My mistake for stating it that way.

As for my "desktop", I bought it in Germany: Alternate ECO-BOX 320/2G. Luxembourg is one of the worst EU countries to buy stuff online, so I usually resort to Germany but many companies don't ship to us. Oddly enough, some tech companies have their HQ here but still don't ship here. *sigh*

Now I had my coffee, I might shed some light on why the way of looking at computers changed. I'll use as a reference PC-Specialist, which is pretty close to what you'll get as a "mom 'n pop" store. First things first, from their website, I can gather that a virus-removal is 79€, hardware upgrade is free (provided you buy the hardware with them) Now, you have an old crusty P-IV that is virus infested and you'd like to have 2GB RAM instead of the 512MB it came with. Two 1GB DDR sticks will set you back around 44€ (Online shop in Germany, but prices won't differ that much). This means, you're looking at a 123€ bill to get an old machine running again and probably the person working at the shop will tell you it's not worth it. Thing is, he's most likely right. From the "Angebote" PDF at PC Specialist, you'll find on the first page a laptop for 379€ with a Core i3 and 3GB RAM that'll kick your old machine at any task conceivable. Want no laptop and reuse your old screen, keyboard and mouse? See page 4 for a 249€ desktop, Pentium E5700 , 2GB RAM or page 349€ for a Core i3 with 4GB RAM.

That means that for a mere 126€ more (took the page 4, 249€ desktop for the calculation), you get a significant upgrade that is trouble free from the start, with warranty. Sure, you pay more, but you definitely get more too and are going to be fine with the machine for at least a couple of years, which is not guaranteed with your old P-IV (the powersupply might blow two days after repairs and that will set you back again).

Look, I'm a dumpster diver. I take what people throw out and try to get it working again. Mixing and matching components to make out of two or three PC, one that is good. It's a hobby and when I give away a PC, I don't ask anything for them. However, considering the age of the machines, I couldn't even ask 100€ for them. It's hard enough to give them away for free and it takes a lot of time to get them running (depending on the find and the mix-and-match I can do) I only do it because it's a fun hobby, but it definitely has no economic sense.

plus AMD does not sell the Energy Efficient (EE) any longer except to OEMs; at least in this country.

What is "this country"?
In Germany, you can still get some "Energy Efficient" models, although they have a small "e" instead of the "EE" now. For instance the Athlon_II_X2_240e:
http://www.alternate.de/html/product/CPU/AMD/Athlon_II_X2_240e/137074/?tn=HARDWARE&l1=Prozessoren+(CPU)&l2=Desktop&l3=Sockel+AM3
2 x 2.8GHz at 45W TDP, for 65 Euros. That is pretty nice.

I don't think old CRT SDTVs are the kind of system future development will be aimed at.
For starters, those old clunkers tend to have such a poor resolution that you cannot display much text without filling half the screen with huge letters. There goes any game that wants to have a chat window...

Hardware side, a more realistic target system would be
-any HDTV with at least 1366x768 pixels and HDMI interface (looking at my preferred online shop, http://www.alternate.de/, most LCD TV sets offer at least these two features)
-plus a PC with at least 2GByte RAM and at least a midrange CPU and GPU. Detailed specs open to discussion ;-)

Which leaves questions of usability and choice of operating system.
The easiest choice would be Windows, and I doubt Activision could make people move to an Activision Linux or whatever. But that means Activision has to work with what Microsoft hands out.
So it comes down to setting some reasonable minimum specs and a lot of marketing.

I see what you're trying to do there.

First you get it from eBay, probably second hand. If you go to a repair shop, it won't be and you pay new... If they have second hand stuff, it's unlikely the part you need will be there unless it's very generic. Those 30€ ain't going to cut it in the "normal user goes to repair shop" case. Let's be nice and count "only" 50€ for the part. For a new LCD screen very unlikely.

Second, you did that yourself... You have the skills to do so and you estimate the repair 50€. I agree, sounds like a fair price for the labour done. Just hope that you find a fair repair shop if you're a normal user.

Now the "normal user goes to repair shop scenario" spent around 100€ to get his 300€ netbook repaired. Presumably this netbook already is at least a year old and no equivalent is sold anymore. Netbooks, including Windows XP start at a frigging 229€ (not affiliated, I'm just a happy customer. For about the double of the price the customer gets a better, new, under warranty netbook.

In certain technological sectors repairing makes no sense. I remember when buying a new battery for a cellphone made sense. Years later, the battery of my trusted Siemens S35i (a great phone for its time) died. I wanted to buy a new battery. 60€ they asked... For 120€ I had a brand new cellphone with more features.... What would you have done? The netbook example, from the viewpoint of the non-technical user who cannot do repairs himself, is exactly the same.

I know that from your perspective you did the right thing and from an environmental point of view too. So, more power to you. I'd have done the same.

Problem is almost all the cheap computers are in netbook format.

Huh? What are you talking about? My favourite hardware online store has an Atom-based motherboard for a whopping 58.90€. Add in a 1GB stick (if you don't already have some lying around, like I do... from dumpster diven machines) for a 23.99€. You can most likely reuse your cases and power supplies (I have an Atom ION 330 motherboard living of a 300W powersupply and that overkill). That's your base system for less than 85€! Matches your "below £100" no?

If I just want the motherboard, or a box without a screen, they assume you're in the embedded/industrial market, with prices to match

Ever heard of Soekris? Sure, they are not *that* cheap and not that high-performance but you were talking "home servers". I have a net5501-70 and it handles pretty much anything I throw at it for home server usage. Of course, that's not in your given budget range...

Now, I admit that these are all x86 machines but currently your machines are too.

Perhaps you can base something on this. Based on XScale processors, but they seem to be out-of-budget too.

Perhaps you might start reavaluate your £100 requirement. I haven't seen any netbook at that price either. £100 ~= 115€. Cheapest netbook I have seen was 199€ and was Linux based. So, I ask you the reverse question; Where can I find a £100 netbook?

Problem is almost all the cheap computers are in netbook format.

Huh? What are you talking about? My favourite hardware online store has an Atom-based motherboard for a whopping 58.90€. Add in a 1GB stick (if you don't already have some lying around, like I do... from dumpster diven machines) for a 23.99€. You can most likely reuse your cases and power supplies (I have an Atom ION 330 motherboard living of a 300W powersupply and that overkill). That's your base system for less than 85€! Matches your "below £100" no?

If I just want the motherboard, or a box without a screen, they assume you're in the embedded/industrial market, with prices to match

Ever heard of Soekris? Sure, they are not *that* cheap and not that high-performance but you were talking "home servers". I have a net5501-70 and it handles pretty much anything I throw at it for home server usage. Of course, that's not in your given budget range...

Now, I admit that these are all x86 machines but currently your machines are too.

Perhaps you can base something on this. Based on XScale processors, but they seem to be out-of-budget too.

Perhaps you might start reavaluate your £100 requirement. I haven't seen any netbook at that price either. £100 ~= 115€. Cheapest netbook I have seen was 199€ and was Linux based. So, I ask you the reverse question; Where can I find a £100 netbook?

You mean this?

Acer is one of the 'big name' Laptop producers that actually sell Laptops with Linux preinstalled that are generally available and visible and don't require placement of a special order at headquarters overseas. And they let you notice the price difference to the same models with Windows on them.
Solution to this 'bug': If you buy an Acer, by one that comes with Linux.

Problems with marginal RAM can be hard to detect, if the memory fails only occasionally. Think one or two crashes per day, in an environment where it might as well be the software.
I have seen this before, and it lead to a long search for the problem. Upon buying new brand RAM the situation improved, so I am pretty sure the problem was with the old RAM. But we still had no real proof, because the defects could not be reproduced in a short demonstration. A recalcitrant vendor could have refused replacement and gotten away with it. So even for a private user, the value of the wasted time can easily exceed the premium for brand RAM (and you might still end up paying for the latter).
Besides, quality RAM is not that expensive. In my own computers, I run Kingston Value RAM with ECC. Right now, the difference to the cheapest no-names without ECC is 18 Euros per 512 MByte module (DDR 400, CL3) at my preferred reseller:
http://www.alternate.de/

true.
Actually the software is Windows XP Home and StarOffice in the link in the first example.
This is a better link: PC Builder, Software
It shows the price for software added to a complete system at a big german store.
Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition, System-builder 79 EUR
Microsoft Office 2003 Basic (just preinstalled) 177 EUR
(IANAL yadda, yadda, but as a sidenote: OEM restrictions to software are not enforcable in germany)