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No Cheap Replacement For Hard Disks Before 2020

siddesu writes with disappointing news to anyone who'd like to see solid-state storage dominate in the near-term future. "A new study of storage technology by the former CTO of Seagate predicts that hard disks will remain the cheapest storage technology in the next decade and probably beyond."

346 comments

  1. Huh? by chuckymonkey · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So these people can predict the future now?! Really, you never know what is going to happen for sure. Look at current HDD tech, IBM made the GMR breakthrough and BAM! Huge storage capacity in drives. What makes people think that there cannot be another such discovery with solid state or some other yet unknown tech?

    --
    "Some books contain the machinery required to create and sustain universes."-Tycho
    1. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I would wager that because the memory used in solid state drives is old enough that a breakthrough at this point is more unlikely to happen, merely because it should have already.

    2. Re:Huh? by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Probably because manufacturing techniques often take at least 10 years to become mainstream. Even if someone invents something faster, smaller and more reliable than magnetic storage... you still have to conceive of a way to produce it in mass quantities to drive the price below that of established spinning disks.

    3. Re:Huh? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Well, the breakthrough is PCRAM, which is almost as fast as DRAM but non-volatile and rewritable per byte, unlike Flash, which needs (relatively large) cells to be deleted. Samsung are already producing 64MB PCRAM modules, but you can expect the capacities to increase quickly.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    4. Re:Huh? by cjfs · · Score: 3, Funny

      So these people can predict the future now?!

      Dude, the guy has his own Wikipedia article. I'm pretty sure that grants him all sorts of powers.

    5. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, the guy has his own Wikipedia article [wikipedia.org]. I'm pretty sure that grants him all sorts of powers.

      It's true. It happened to Jeff Merkey. One day he was an ordinary run-of-the-mill netkook. Then he got a Wikipedia article and it turned him into a kind of superhero; Netkookman or something.

    6. Re:Huh? by timeOday · · Score: 5, Insightful

      you still have to conceive of a way to produce it in mass quantities to drive the price below that of established spinning disks.

      Nope! Roast beef costs more than bologna, yet people chose to buy it every day. SSD drives don't need to be cheaper because they are better - silent, far less prone to shock damage, and ohhh so much faster. Morever, HDD's, though cheaper per megabyte for huge-sized drives, will be more expensive for the smaller sizes people actually need. You can get a memory stick for, what, $10? HDD's never touch that because of their complexity. Well before 2020 a 250 GB SSD will be $20, and will have ample capacity for most users, and will be cheaper than any HDD. Granted, a 50 TB HDD will still be cheaper than a 50 TB SDD, but most people won't care. About that time, HDDs will become specialty products, further crippling any remaining cost advantage.

    7. Re:Huh? by Kjella · · Score: 4, Informative

      Good thing we haven't been working with solid state storage in digital cameras for 10+ years then. Or the RAID controller technology which could make them kick-ass fast. Sorry, but SSDs aren't revolutionary in that sense, they're taking two rather mainstream technologies combined with the same process improvement you see in CPU/GPU/RAM and coming to whoop ass in all performance oriented markets. I have an SSD as my primary disk and I'd say it's the biggest revolution since dual cores. Almost no matter what I do, the machine remains very responsive under heavy IO load completely unlike hard disks.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    8. Re:Huh? by 0123456 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well before 2020 a 250 GB SSD will be $20, and will have ample capacity for most users, and will be cheaper than any HDD.

      Rather like the average user will ever need more than 640k of RAM.

      By 2020, 250GB will be as much of a joke for the average user as a 250MB drive would be today; 250GB will probably be just about big enough to hold one super-extra-high-definition video file.

    9. Re:Huh? by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      I suppose that explains the death of LTO to hard drives. Wait...

    10. Re:Huh? by DeadDecoy · · Score: 1

      I'm sure you could edit the wiki page and give him the ability to fly. With any luck, maybe he'll test out his newfound abilities on a tall building.

    11. Re:Huh? by tepples · · Score: 1

      You can get a memory stick for, what, $10?

      I can get USB drives and often SD cards for that price, but Memory Stick's higher royalties and lower economies of scale mean I'm not going to find cheap media in a big box store unless it's on clearance.

    12. Re:Huh? by tepples · · Score: 4, Insightful

      250GB will be as much of a joke for the average user as a 250MB drive would be today

      Nintendo DSi has the equivalent of a 256 MB microSD soldered onto the motherboard. It's enough to hold a few apps from the DSi Shop. If it were a joke, why would Nintendo have used it?

      250GB will probably be just about big enough to hold one super-extra-high-definition video file.

      For one thing, the eye has a resolution limit, so why would people need more than, say, 2560x1440 (quad 720p) in home electronics? For another, are you talking about the consumer's use (which would be streaming rather than storage if the movie industry has its way) or the movie producer's use?

    13. Re:Huh? by kenj0418 · · Score: 3, Funny

      With any luck, maybe he'll test out his newfound abilities on a tall building.

      I'm assuming you mean testing it from the top of the tall building. Because if you fail while trying to 'leap tall buildings in a single bound' its much less spectacular if you were starting at the bottom.

    14. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your mum has one, too. That doesn't mean she's in the position to predict anything. But she's quite flexible.

    15. Re:Huh? by maxume · · Score: 1

      Have you not noticed that the Blu-ray revolution is passing most of us by? People don't care too much about video quality, as long as they happen to have enough of it.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    16. Re:Huh? by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Nintendo DSi has the equivalent of a 256 MB microSD soldered onto the motherboard. It's enough to hold a few apps from the DSi Shop. If it were a joke, why would Nintendo have used it?

      And that has any relevance to the general computer market because?

      At the rate we're going, by 2020 Windows will probably need 500GB for a base install and the average PC game will be 1TB.

      For one thing, the eye has a resolution limit, so why would people need more than, say, 2560x1440 (quad 720p) in home electronics?

      In the near future you'll be able to buy a $3000 camcorder that can shoot more than 2560x1440 and burn through a gigabyte every 30 seconds or so; by 2020 you'll probably be able to shoot IMAX resolution on a $3k camcorder.

      Honestly, every time I've seen someone say 'the average user will never need more than this', they've looked incredibly foolish only a few years later.

    17. Re:Huh? by SECProto · · Score: 1

      2020-2009 = 11 years. In 1998, my computer had a 5 gig hard drive, and a 250mb drive was as much a joke then as it is now. you are maybe mixing up 2020 and 2030?

    18. Re:Huh? by scarboni888 · · Score: 1

      Most of the people I know are using from 20-30GB max out of a ridiculous 200-500GB storage space. Most people aren't watching movies on their computers or downloading tons of stuff they just want to get their work done & get the hell off the computer. For that 80GB is ample.

    19. Re:Huh? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Have you not noticed that the Blu-ray revolution is passing most of us by?

      My experience is that Blu-Ray finally seems to be taking off now that players are under $200, disks are typically only 1.5-2x the price of DVDs (sometimes even cheaper than the DVD and often cheaper than the same movie/TV show was on DVD when first released) and most people have HDTV.

      And given the number of HDTV torrents Google throws at me any time I go searching for information about a movie, I strongly suspect that HD video files are much more prevalent than Blu-Ray players.

      Also, more and more people are going to have to buy Blu-Ray if they want to be able to send their home movies to their relatives; I was visiting a friend a while back whose father bought a new HD camcorder and didn't understand that they wouldn't be able to burn it to DVD for their relatives to play in HD. Either they'll have to get their relatives to buy computers to plug into their TV, or a Blu-Ray player (or similar).

    20. Re:Huh? by StoatBringer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You severely underestimate future requirements for porn storage.

      --
      Cress, cress, lovely lovely cress
    21. Re:Huh? by Mprx · · Score: 1

      We can spend the bits on more than just resolution. Don't forget increases in frame rate (100fps+ needed for realistic fast motion), increases in color depth for more realistic dynamic range, and stereoscopy. And even if resolution on a conventional screen is bottlenecked by the human eye, dome screens need even higher resolution (or more practically, simulated dome screens using direct to eye projection). Also stereoscopy is an ugly hack that breaks when you change viewing position. A real 3D format would need a huge number of bits. This isn't even taking into account future upgrades to the human visual system, through cybernetics, gene therapy, or whatever.

    22. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well I still use my Datasette because cassettes are cheaper...Oh I see your point.

    23. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Maybe you could wait until he was few hundred feet up in the air, and then revert the edit?

    24. Re:Huh? by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Forget video. The real future is in photogammetry. Wander around a space with a small video camera for a few minutes and the computer infers all of the light, texture and surface properties of the entire room. Then if you want to take a picture the camera is saved as meta-data XYZ position,Quaternian rotation and FOV.

    25. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You severely underestimate future requirements for Internet bandwidth.

      Ftfy.

    26. Re:Huh? by epine · · Score: 5, Insightful

      At the rate we're going, by 2020 Windows will probably need 500GB for a base install

      Only if you install the Federation Font Pack and the holographic tridi layout engine. And that's supposing the SETI program makes an immediate break-through, like tomorrow, and Perl 7 ships on time.

      We've already passed the visual resolution where porn becomes gynaecology. Even lust has resolution limits.

      Or maybe Google decides it saves bandwidth to send out the entire public Internet encoded as a single quantum particle, but for some reason people don't disable their Mozilla page cache.

      Extrapolation is a valid exercise, but works better accompanied by graphs and data points rather than historical fat jokes. The last time Windows hung over its pants like a muffin top, I had a 6GB hard drive. Seagate hasn't sold anything smaller than a military surplus tent awning for years now. Hard to believe, times change.

    27. Re:Huh? by maxume · · Score: 1

      We live in different circles. I'm not currently aware that anyone I know even owns a single Blu-ray disc (that doesn't mean that no one does, it just means we haven't happened to talk about it).

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    28. Re:Huh? by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      I agree... It won't be long before SSDs offer two or three orders of magnitude more performance, and only cost two or there times more than traditional disks.

      At some point, the cost difference will simply become irrelevant because it will be small enough. SSDs don't need to cost less to take over the market.

    29. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Er, 256MB is a lot concidering it's an embedded (outdated) platform. Outdated in the sense that it's a small N64 version. Thinking in those terms, 256MB is a lot.

      Also, did you know, that with the latest developmens in 3D television (the ones that do NOT require shutter glasses) you need quad full HD panels? yes, thats quad 1920x1200 in quad. People will also want to store that on disks (dvd/blueray/hdd) to watch on their home entertainment systems.

      Don't think in terms of today, what we might need in the future, it's short sighted. Those Terabytes, will get used somehow.

    30. Re:Huh? by tepples · · Score: 1

      And that has any relevance to the general computer market because?

      The desktop PC market is a fraction of the computing market in general.

      In the near future you'll be able to buy a $3000 camcorder that can shoot more than 2560x1440 and burn through a gigabyte every 30 seconds or so

      Beyond a certain point, high resolution is most useful for cropping and zooming in post-production. Most consumers and even prosumers don't have an IMAX-class TV on which to watch higher-than-HDTV movies; they didn't even upgrade to HDTV until the 2000s when ATSC came about.

    31. Re:Huh? by reub2000 · · Score: 1

      Yes, we'll find uses for the extra for that storage space, but at the same time many applications will stop growing in terms of the needed storage space. Don't forget that higher capacity flash memory basically killed the microdrive. Pretty soon we'll see affordable flash memory with enough memory to hold uncompressed versions of a users entire music collection, and that'll be the end of hard disk based music players. See where this is going?

    32. Re:Huh? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      A better way to put it: "We've got all these hard drives to sell, so SSD's won't go mainstream for a few more years."

      It's a game of technological reverse musical chairs. The first company who sells cheap SSDs sits down, makes big money, and the music stops. Everyone else gets their clocks cleaned and you start seeing $100 raid arrays using 4 Seagate hard drives.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    33. Re:Huh? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      If it were a joke, why would Nintendo have used it?

      It's a question that answers itself.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    34. Re:Huh? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      by 2020 you'll probably be able to shoot IMAX resolution on a $3k camcorder.

      And by 1990, compact cars will have 2000 horsepower and be able to hover.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    35. Re:Huh? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      The desktop PC market is a fraction of the computing market in general.

      You understand that 9/10 is a fraction, right?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    36. Re:Huh? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      In 2020, we'll be able to watch handheld holographic displays while we stand in bread lines.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    37. Re:Huh? by Known+Nutter · · Score: 1

      This isn't even taking into account future upgrades to the human visual system, through cybernetics, gene therapy, or whatever.

      Remember, we're talking ten years here, not one hundred. I don't think it's a safe bet to say we're going to have cybernetic improvements to the human visual system in ten years.

      --
      Beware of the Leopard.
    38. Re:Huh? by tepples · · Score: 1

      Yes, technically, 9/10 is a fraction. But desktop PCs aren't 9/10 of new PCs, let alone new computers. Every mobile phone is a computer. Every game console is a computer.

    39. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've acutally met one of the people behind GMR in person, Dr. Lubomyr Romankiw

      http://domino.watson.ibm.com/comm/pr.nsf/pages/news.20010516_Romankiw.html

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubomyr_Romankiw

    40. Re:Huh? by sarahbau · · Score: 1

      I bought a 17GB drive in 1999 to add to the 4GB one that came with the computer I bought in 1997. I don't think 17GB was the largest at the time, but I don't think 250GB in 10 years will be like 250MB now. It might be more like what 20GB is like today. Maybe even more than that. I also think hard drive capacity is increasing faster than the need for bigger hard drives. You can get a 2TB drive these days, but very few people could even begin to fill that.

    41. Re:Huh? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      I routinely use 1600x1200 and I miss the days when I routinely used 1920x1440. Even then I wanted at least double that amount in both dimensions. Having several pages open at a time and being able to glance quickly from one to another can be an immense advantage. My understanding is that about 7000x4000 is the limit for human vision. This is for static images; there's less need for high resolution in video.

      Let's try 4000x2500 video, 60 images a second, for 2.5 hours, uncompressed, 3 bytes per pixel. 4000x2500x60x3600x2.5x3 = 16.2x10^12. Video compression might be good for 100:1, so that's 162 GB. 250 GB is not far off.

      --
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    42. Re:Huh? by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      He is only going 10 years out. I think that is probably a reasonable bet. Ten years just isn't that long. I doubt that you will see a new tech replace HDDs in less than 10 years. Even some great unknown tech will take time to bring market.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    43. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Samsung IS already producing.

      IS.

    44. Re:Huh? by Forge · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There is another factor.

      Flash is faster and more energy efficient than spinning disks. This creates a demand for flash which reduces the incentive of manufacturers to drop the price per GB.

      Also try to understand the gap we are dealing with.
      Flash is around $1.87 per GB while Hard drives are closer to 7c per GB.

      That's 26 times the price. Sure SSDs are getting cheaper every day but so are hard drives. I am sure they will get so close that the price gap becomes less important than all the other features which separate them. Some time after that, SSDs may even become cheaper, or both SSDs and hard drives will be supplanted by some other technology. It just won't happen right away.

      Is one more decade too pessimistic an estimate? Only time will tell. What I do know is that where SSD's advantages are more important the change has already started. You can buy a portable computer with only SSD storage today.

      --
      --= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
    45. Re:Huh? by Forge · · Score: 1

      Slashdot ate my 2nd link. I will have to be more careful.

      --
      --= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
    46. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if true 3D technology becomes mainstream, that will occupy a lot of space. 2560x2560x1440 is three orders of magnitude larger.

    47. Re:Huh? by billybacs · · Score: 1

      Internationally, companies are referred to in the plural because one consists of many people, rather than the fact that it is a singular group. Saying Are and Is are both correct.

    48. Re:Huh? by SilentSandman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Really? I've got 5 of them sitting on my desk right now, and they're all full... and I don't even pirate games/movies/etc... the interesting thing is, a good portion of my friends and workmates all have similar amounts of storage space -in use-. Sure we're all game developers and a good portion of us are artists as well, but it's not as rare as you might think. Especially when you re-include the pirates. :\

    49. Re:Huh? by Eil · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So these people can predict the future now?! Really, you never know what is going to happen for sure.

      If you want to see what's going to happen in regard to mechanical vs solid state hard disks, you don't need a crystal ball. Just look at the transition from CRT to LCD displays. It wasn't so long ago (seems like only a few years) that LCD monitors were horribly expensive and that fact (combined with their other drawbacks) made them an unattractive option for most people. I can recall many, many people right here on Slashdot saying that they would never give up their enormous, power-hungry, failure-prone CRT displays. Now, you can't even buy a CRT computer monitor because LCD quality caught up and surpassed CRTs for most purposes while price plummeted. The same will happen with mechanical disks and SSDs. Maybe it'll happen faster, maybe slower, but it will happen.

      Keep in mind also which company this "prediction" is coming from: Seagate lived a long and prosperous career engineering and manufacturing mechanical hard disks. They are a huge company whose entire operation is based around the concept of shipping hunks of metal with rotating platters inside. Since an SSD is just a bunch of memory chips duct-taped together, the memory companies (Transcend, Crucial, Corsair, Samsung, etc) were the first ones with SSDs on the market. The SSD thing likely hit Seagate by surprise and they can see that their run won't last long. It's not too late for them to start transitioning to manufacturing memory chips, but doing so would be brutal for many reasons. To start with, their decades of mechanical drive development experience, manufacturing facilities, engineers, trade secrets, R&D, etc are mostly about to be worthless. If they start selling this stuff off now while it's still fairly valuable, shareholders are going to do a huge "WTF?" and walk off. Second, the memory companies have a few years head start. Even if Seagate could enter the market and compete with them, the company would be leaving their position as a market leader to be a market newcomer, taking cues from everyone else. (Cue the sound of their last few shareholders stomping out.)

      Basically, unless Seagate can buy up a few of the leading memory companies making SSDs right now, they're screwed. Until (or unless) that happens, all they can do right now is appease their shareholders and put their executives up on stage to have them parrot the lie that their business is going to be viable for a good long time yet. Oh, and frivolously sue all the SSD manufacturers on broad patent infringement grounds.

    50. Re:Huh? by wiredlogic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is more a matter of dialectical usage. In North America it is typical to refer to companies in the singular whereas the plural interpretation is more typical for British English and those regions it has influence over. It is interesting to note that the term "company" is itself a plural word but "corporation" refers to a plurality of parts (share holders in this case) forming a single body. Then throw in that, in the US at least, companies are legally regarded as individuals and you have a recipe for confusion regarding proper pluralization for corporate entities.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    51. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A lot of people use the term "memory stick" to describe USB flash drives, or even SD cards. Those same people will likely have never heard of Sony's Memory Stick.

      I have absolutely no idea why this happens - I guess Sony just happened to pick the most obvious name.

    52. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2 TB? I could fill that in a week without even trying.

    53. Re:Huh? by xZgf6xHx2uhoAj9D · · Score: 1

      All the world must use American English, right?

    54. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At the rate we're going, by 2020 Windows will probably need 500GB for a base install and the average PC game will be 1TB.

      What? Games 10 years ago, or at least the ones I played, were 700-1400 megabytes. These days typical games are 4-6 gigs. I could see that going up to 20-30 gigs in some cases in 10 years, but up to 1 TB? And what makse you think that Windows installs are going to increase by that much in 10 years? Windows XP came out in 2001 and an XP install is what, 4.5 gigs? Compared to Windows 7, circa 2009, at 15 gigs.

    55. Re:Huh? by onefriedrice · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well before 2020 a 250 GB SSD will be $20, and will have ample capacity for most users, and will be cheaper than any HDD.

      Rather like the average user will ever need more than 640k of RAM.

      By 2020, 250GB will be as much of a joke for the average user as a 250MB drive would be today; 250GB will probably be just about big enough to hold one super-extra-high-definition video file.

      Actually, I don't think this is true. We are at the point of diminishing returns in so many areas. For example, we used to be okay with black and white. Then 4-bit color. Then 8-bit color. Now we're at 24 or 32-bit color, and anything more than that would pretty much be wasted because our eyes can't see any more colors. The same thing is happening with audio and video. There comes a point when adding more data won't make a difference. So while you're correct in saying that people use more disk storage space than they did ten years ago or even one year ago, you can't really extrapolate and say for sure that we're going to be using more and more at the same rate of increase we've seen in the past.

      Another thing to consider is this growing fad of putting everything on the "cloud." Maybe it is just that, a fad, but perhaps one day people will store all their photos, music, videos, documents, or anything that would take a lot of disk space today entirely on this cloud thing and not keep copies of anything on their disks. I hope not, but you never know.

      --
      This author takes full ownership and responsibility for the unpopular opinions outlined above.
    56. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      just like floppies cost what, about $.05? i don't see them flying off the shelf anymore. And a CD-RW has to be cheaper then that in bulk, yet those aren't selling as fast as they used to either. DVD's are way cheaper then Blu-ray, yet people are paying the premium for them.

      Storage mediums become outdated for reasons beyond cost. I'm thinking about SSD's in my next rig, if i can justify the cost.

    57. Re:Huh? by A12m0v · · Score: 1

      Metal Gear Solid 4 is on a dual layer blu-ray disk, I think we are already past 25GB.

      --
      GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
    58. Re:Huh? by A12m0v · · Score: 1

      IYou can get a 2TB drive these days, but very few people could even begin to fill that.

      I just did you insensitive clod!

      --
      GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
    59. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hate to break this to you, but the desktop PC gaming market is irrelevant these days. Go to any gaming store. You might find a shelf with a few PC games, usually a row dedicated to WoW and its expansions, perhaps a Blizzard Battle Chest. However, you are not going to find much else. Mainly because for every PC game sold, 100 to 1000 copies are pirated and are using game company networks, so the giants like EA have given the PC the middle finger and completely stopped bothering with the platform.

      Now in the same game store, take a look around. The next 10 rows down are all console games. Because piracy isn't an issue with consoles (PS3 has yet to be cracked even after this many years, and Xbox 360s are moddable, but get insta-banned the second XBL detects nonstandard hardware.)

      Even without the hemorrhaging of losses due to piracy, consoles are far more lucrative to game developers than PCs. In general, a console owner buys 10 to 100 times as many games for their device as a PC sees. With these stats, it is no wonder why the PC is irrelevant to gaming these days.

      Give it a rest; PC gaming is dead, other than going to a website and playing yet another Mario Brothers clone in Flash.

    60. Re:Huh? by davester666 · · Score: 1

      There is no other kind...

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    61. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I see people passing it by for four reasons, even though the technology is getting under the $199 price point:

      1: Yes, Netfix and others have Blu-ray movies, but people tend to not bother as a DVD is good enough.
      2: People are tending to stick what they have because of economic reasons. One of the reasons why DVDs caught on fairly quickly was that America was fairly prosperous at the time, and people could afford to move from VHS to DVD without it being a big part of the budget. Now with no end in sight for unemployment figures increasing (and a Congress totally disinterested in doing anything about it on either party), Americans are more focused on keeping a roof over their heads than upgrading to a new movie format.
      3: DVD media is compatible almost anywhere. There are utilities that allow people to rip DVD media to their iPod so on a long trip they have something to play. Blu-Ray media isn't going to allow this unless you have a utility made by a company willing to run the arms race with the BD DRM makers movie title by movie title.
      4: DVD media is "good enough". VHS tapes wear out, but unless one is very rough on handling optical media, a DVD will far outlast any player it is played on. Blu-Ray isn't that big an upgrade for most people from DVD unless they are spending a Christmas bonus and getting a player and TV that can handle the better resolution.

    62. Re:Huh? by galanom · · Score: 1

      In the near future the framerate is about to move from 24p to 48p. Just an example.

    63. Re:Huh? by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      Also, did you know, that with the latest developmens in 3D television (the ones that do NOT require shutter glasses) you need quad full HD panels? yes, thats quad 1920x1200 in quad.

      Why? How does stereoscopy have anything to do with resolution? We have a 1024x384x2 monitor at work that shows 3D just fine without any form of glasses.

    64. Re:Huh? by SpecBear · · Score: 1

      This is marketing, pure and simple. Seagate is a major player in the hard drive business, but not in the SSD business. All we have here is the CTO of a hard drive manufacturer saying that the technology that current looks like it's most likely to put him out of a job won't put him out of a job for at least a decade. So his customers certainly shouldn't consider SSD over hard drives at least until then. That gives them plenty of time to work on their own SSD solution.

    65. Re:Huh? by SpecBear · · Score: 1

      You ARE a dim-witted douchebag.

      ARE.

    66. Re:Huh? by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      Seagate lived a long and prosperous career engineering and manufacturing mechanical hard disks. They are a huge company whose entire operation is based around the concept of shipping hunks of metal with rotating platters inside.

      But can they get into the SSD market? surely the rapid progress of hard drives requires a complete replacement of most of the technology over 10 years anyway.

    67. Re:Huh? by gmrath · · Score: 1

      NO mod points right now, but I'd give you a +5 informative. . .

    68. Re:Huh? by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      That's 26 times the price. Sure SSDs are getting cheaper every day but so are hard drives. I am sure they will get so close that the price gap becomes less important than all the other features which separate them. Some time after that, SSDs may even become cheaper, or both SSDs and hard drives will be supplanted by some other technology. It just won't happen right away.

      Going by this website:
      http://lab-notes.blogspot.com/2007/05/historical-storage-prices-raw-data.html
      and harddrive prices verified here: http://www.mattscomputertrends.com/harddiskdata.html

      I took the sweetspot price of both HDD and flash for 2002:

      A 128mb flash module cost $147 making it $1176 per GB.
      A 60GB harddrive cost $275 making it $4.58 per GB.

      $X/GB, the flash price was 256.8 times the price of hard drive. So it dropped an entire order of a magnitude since then in 7 years. Assuming everything goes along as in the past, that another magnitude of an order drop would occur by 2016/2017. That would leave flash 2.5x that of a 3.5" HDD. Of course, that would make it a comparable price for a higher-capacity 2.5" notebook, which is the size of all SSDs as well.

      I don't think the wait will be until 2020. There will always be desktop computers and servers. But the growth market are small devices now. Unlike a decade ago, a notebook can be the primary machine for a great many people without much performance penalty on normal tasks, and that's what many people are buying in lieu of a desktop machine. The previous decade saw digital cameras, GPS systems, and iPods really grow the flash market, iPhone/smartphones are adding cellphones to that list. Who knows what will be next?

    69. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my experience the unresponsiveness of computers under heavy IO load is often more to do with bad memory management rather than storage technology. Not that an SSD isn't a perfectly workable route around those problems.

      Windows in particular likes to use the its page file on some occasions regardless of how much ram is sitting in the machine completely unused. Turning it off (disliked by many apps, which typically crash) or scaling it down to its very minimum of 2MB (forcing windows to use it much less) tends to improve performance under heavy load by surprising amounts.

    70. Re:Huh? by jez9999 · · Score: 3, Funny

      We've already passed the visual resolution where porn becomes gynaecology. Even lust has resolution limits.

      Maybe so, but we haven't reached them yet. I wanna know what bacteria and fungi she's carrying.

    71. Re:Huh? by jez9999 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Now, you can't even buy a CRT computer monitor because LCD quality caught up and surpassed CRTs for most purposes while price plummeted.

      Although I do now have a couple of LCDs sitting here on my desk, I still take issue with the idea that they have surpassed CRTs, qualitywise... I doubt that will ever happen. I'm not sure what the phenomenon is called (it's not the same as ghosting, I think), but fast-moving objects don't work well on LCDs. They darken. Try playing emulated Sonic The Hedgehog on a CRT (if you can find one) vs on an LCD and you'll see what I mean. It's virtually unplayable on the latter.

      *sheds a tear for the fall of CRTs*

    72. Re:Huh? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Honestly, every time I've seen someone say 'the average user will never need more than this', they've looked incredibly foolish only a few years later.

      The average user will never need more than a hundred yottabytes of disk capacity.

    73. Re:Huh? by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1

      No. There is English. Then there is American.

    74. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but go ahead and extrapolate the GB-per-dollar-curves and you'll probably find, depending on your assumptions, that disk drives will remain the cheapest storage at least until 2020. Which means that for the next eleven years we will have a data storage structure that looks something like this, where lower entries contain lesser used data:

      CPU registers
      L1 cache
      L2/L3 cache
      RAM
      SSD or disk drive
      Disk drive or SSD

      The SSD will contain data that is often read but not written as often. The oft-written data will go into the disk drive because of wear problem in SSDs.

    75. Re:Huh? by jimicus · · Score: 1

      I suppose that explains the death of LTO to hard drives. Wait...

      Don't. You'll have a torrent of 14-18 year olds on here in a minute telling you that you're a dinosaur for even continuing to acknowledge the existence of tape.

    76. Re:Huh? by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

      This has nothing to do with corporation vs company, "rights as an individual", etc.
      In the U.S.: The group of people is standing over there.
      In the U.K.: The group of people are standing over there.

      Collective nouns are plural in the U.K. (a collection of things)
      Collective nouns are singular in the U.S. (a collection of things)

      --
      -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    77. Re:Huh? by commodore64_love · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No. There is English. And then in 1066 the damn French invaded the island and polluted the language with their messed-up words. True English died with Beowulf.

      What exists today in both Britannia and America is a mongrel mess of Germanic and Latinate words. No wonder the spelling and rules make no sense. Damn French.

      (I'm chust joking. Put down the guillotine Mr. Frenchman.)

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    78. Re:Huh? by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

      "beyond a certain point, high resolution is most useful for something really really useful, therefore is completely useless"

      --
      -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
    79. Re:Huh? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hate to break this to you, but the desktop PC gaming market is irrelevant these days. Go to any gaming store. You might find a shelf with a few PC games...

      That's how you measure the world of computing? By what's on the shelves at the local GameShop?

      It's like measuring the state of the health care industry by what's in your medicine cabinet.

      Anyway, I wasn't trying to say that PCs are 9/10 of the computer industry, just that the term "just a fraction" doesn't mean what you think it does.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    80. Re:Huh? by Bob_Who · · Score: 4, Funny

      Saying Are and Is are both correct.

      Saying Are and Is are both correct, is correct.

      Both are, is correct. Are is both are saying is.

    81. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's a "tape"?

    82. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > For one thing, the eye has a resolution limit, so why would people need more than, say, 2560x1440 (quad 720p) in home electronics? For another, are you talking about the consumer's use (which would be streaming rather than storage if the movie industry has its way) or the movie producer's use?

      3D video.

    83. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For me it isn't cost, but size. I can't get a big enough SSD to replace my current hard drives. The biggest drive in my home is a 1TB so we're not talking a lot of space. Most are 500GB or smaller.

    84. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think this is the case. Today one can buy a 640GB hard drive for under $70. Sadly, there are no SSD's available for under $240 regardless of capacity.
          I would easily pay ~$100 for a 4GB drive as that's all the speed critical space I need.

    85. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      250GB will probably be just about big enough to hold one super-extra-high-definition video file.

      For one thing, the eye has a resolution limit, so why would people need more than, say, 2560x1440 (quad 720p) in home electronics? For another, are you talking about the consumer's use (which would be streaming rather than storage if the movie industry has its way) or the movie producer's use?

      Current digital cinema theather versions of films take around 200 gigs and their resolution is only 2048x1080 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Cinema_Initiatives). I think it would be quite reasonable to believe that this format would be preferred by serious home viewers also. The files already exist. Of course you don't have to use that big files, but why compress more if speed and size of the drives keeps evolving like it has. It all depends if there becomes reasonable 2k home projectors available.

      And for now videofiles are the ones that take the most space in home use, but they probably won't stay that way forever. The more space we have the more uses we will have for it.

    86. Re:Huh? by swilver · · Score: 1

      $10? I got 2nd hand HD's lying around that I give away free that are bigger than memory sticks.

    87. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      250GB will probably be just about big enough to hold one super-extra-high-definition video file.

      No, 250GB will be just big enough to install Windows 15.

    88. Re:Huh? by mitgib · · Score: 1

      Where's a mod point when ya need one?

      --
      Being a spelling & grammar Nazi is a sign you do not poses the intelligence to contribute to the conversation
    89. Re:Huh? by mitgib · · Score: 1

      By 2020, 250GB will be as much of a joke for the average user as a 250MB drive would be today; 250GB will probably be just about big enough to hold one super-extra-high-definition video file.

      Or the latest copy of Windows

      --
      Being a spelling & grammar Nazi is a sign you do not poses the intelligence to contribute to the conversation
    90. Re:Huh? by hazydave · · Score: 1

      If it even takes THAT long.

      Some companies are already working on post-HD displays for consumer electronics. Digital cinema is moving to 4K video (nominally 4096x2160 pixels).. high end consumer gear won't be far behind. NHK (Japan) is working on nearly 8K systems (7680x4320) for 2025 or thereabouts.

      Videophiles and home theater enthusiasts would buy this stuff today. And most of the pieces are already in place to enable this. The nice video DSP technology we have for upscaling DVD will be applied to upscale Blu-Ray initially, so a 4K display will actually produce a better picture from existing material than today's HD displays. The interfaces, like HDMI and Displayport, as well as most PC graphics cards, already support at least 2560×1600.. HDMI over type B signalling/connector can deliver 3840×2400, today.

      Consumer camcorders and DSLRs are headed that way, fast. Most of the top consumer video camcorders are already using much larger imagers; lots of 6Mpixel-8Mpixel camcorders went out this year. Sanyo already makes a $400 consumer model, the VPC-FD1, which can shoot at a full 1080/60p, twice the rate of Blu-Ray (however, already supported by more recent HDTVs). Many of this years' DSLRs are supporting 1080p video with 12-14Mpixel sensors.

      IMAX resolution? Don't know about that... or even just what that is, since it's film. Well, let's see.. a standard 35mm frame is 36mm x 24mm, that's from an SLR (the sensor in a "full frame" DSLR is the same size). Film cameras shoot half-frame, which is 24mm x 18mm , roughly (the "Academy" format, as delivered to theaters, is 21.95mm x 18.6mm... there's an optical audio track alongsize, but that's not present on the cameras themselves). I believe from my own film scanning that you can get an honest 20Mpixels out of a good 35mm image... as long as you're shooting something like Kodachrome 25. Today's best full frame DSLRs also top out in the 20Mpixel range. So that's a good basis. So you should expect about 10Mpixel per film frame.. which isn't a far cry from the 4K standard moving into theaters now, at 8.8Mpixels.

      An IMAX frame is 70mm x 48.5mm.. nearly 8x the area of a standard 35mm film frame. So call that 80Mpixels. I don't think we're going to see a consumer video camera shooting 80Mpixels anytime soon. Even in a handheld... you're going to start running out of space in a 35mm format... the sensors can only get so small. I think we're approaching that limit, but it's more that every time you shrink the sensor, you lose light sensitivity. So pixels will probably only increase as technology improves light sensitivity, unless there's a big push. In fact, in the big push to HD, pretty much every HD camera lost sensitivity over its SD predecessor. They're only now starting to catch up (the standard for low-light in prosumer camcorders in the SD days was the Sony VX2100....good video down to 1 lux).

      I think it's quite possible we'll see prosumer and then consumer video at increasingly higher resolution, going to 4K before you know it. This has already become crazy affordable for professionals, in the Red Camera. Between that and the push from the larger sensors in video-capable DSLRs, video is actually at a very interesting point in history. Even for consumer models, increased resolution is one of the only places for consumer video to go.. the quality is already getting crazy-good, and given the economies of things, significantly better optics, more buttons, many of these things will increase the cost of the gear, which, for the consumer and many pro markets, is fixed by tier (eg, since Video8, the top consumer camcorder models have been in the $1000-$1500 range, MSRP). Silicon features, including higher resolutions, while be among the lowest cost improvements to entice buyers to new models, probably within a few years. When every $400 camcorder can shoot a fabulous 1080/60i or 1080/24p or whatever, the $1200 models will have to offer something more.

      The eye has a resolution limit, certainly. Optically, you have about 6 million chr

      --
      -Dave Haynie
    91. Re:Huh? by hazydave · · Score: 1

      Well, sure, but unlike VHS and even DVD to an extent, porn wasn't necessary to push HDTV. After all, we all get it online, anyway, and it's one of the few video art-forms that, as you say, does not benefit in any way from higher resolutions.

      --
      -Dave Haynie
    92. Re:Huh? by hazydave · · Score: 1

      Yeah, he should have said "a small fraction". And getting smaller.. the digital revolution has, more than anything, been about turning every electronic device into a computer. So your cellphone, camcorder, camera, car, GPS, music player, music recorder, watch, video player, video recorder, TV, guitar, piano, toy, thermometer, oven, and even sometimes your frickin' sneakers are also computers.

      --
      -Dave Haynie
    93. Re:Huh? by hazydave · · Score: 1

      Whoops.. and certainly not for the $3K... but the Red "Mysterium Monstro" 645, already annouced, is nearly IMAX resolution. The "Mysterium Monstro" 617, on the other hand, is over twice that resolution (168mm x 56mm)... at least as far as image sensor goes (you can argue about the specific resolution of film, depending on the specific film involved). This is part of Red's DSMC system... crazy modular. So maybe it won't take until 2025 to see IMAX resolutions in the home :-)

      --
      -Dave Haynie
    94. Re:Huh? by hazydave · · Score: 1

      Frame rate is already on the rise.. the $400 Sanyo VPC-FH1 does 1080/60p recording (MPEG-4 AVC) already. It's not going to scare away $4,000 professional cameras, but it's actually delivering video only slightly lower in quality than this years' $1200-$1500 consumer models. This is a portent of things to come in the camcorder market. Most new higher end camcorders this year support xyYCC mode, which isn't higher bitrate, but a higher color mode that uses the full range of 8-bit YUV color, as well as the specs in HDMI 1.3 that support 10-bit, 12-bit, and 16-bit color (that's bits-per-channel, the usual way to speak of these things in digital video terms).

      I don't think anyone's talking about real 3D... all the 3D hype is about stereoscopic video. Stereoscopic video doesn't break when you move, unless you're counting on one of the weird no-glasses displays being played around with. It's just that stereoscopic isn't full 3D. Most people watching a television have no need for prespectives to change from one end of the couch to the next. Stereoscopic video needs about twice the bandwidth as monoscopic, maybe a bit less (eg, using differential encoding), certainly no more than that.

      I think we'll have to wait for real 3D until they perfect that direct brain interface. At that point, the bandwidth should drop dramatically.

      --
      -Dave Haynie
    95. Re:Huh? by hazydave · · Score: 1

      Most of us? Well, for new disc releases, it varies between 10% and 35% of the discs sold. So technically, yeah, that's "most of us", if you count everyone in the country. Somehow, I suspect it's not passing by "most of us" when it comes to /. users.

      Or Best-Buy customers.. they're making more money on BD than DVD already. Sure, BD titles are more expensive, but it's also true that much of the volume of DVD sales is in older stuff. Wal-Mart is the largest reseller of DVDs in the country, but that's boosted dramatically by their bins of $5 discs and racks of $10 discs.

      BD is already a win, and this Christmas will prove it, for those non-believers. BD players are hitting the $100 mark.. and not just on special deals. There are a number of new, basic units selling with an MSRP at $150, street price around $100. These have already filled this "high end" niche within the DVD player world (at $500-$1000, BD was unto itself... not really part of the DVD ecosystem). That's the $100-$150 market into which they push a new upscale feature every year or two. When 480p players hit the market (curiously, the first one had a 480i MPEG-2 decoder that fed a 480i->480p frame conversion device.. zero advantage over feeding 480i into the average modern TV of the day), they were in this price range. Next came upconverting DVD players.. despite the fact that your HDTV also has an upconverter.. at least, if you're tech savvy, you can figure out which is better. So this year, Blu-Ray is that niche in DVD players. In two years, it'll drop to the $50 player point.

      And even then, the HD-DVD fanboys will still reject it. But the world won't care if those 4,256 guys don't buy BD players...

      If you're into video, you already knew HD had won... it's difficult to find a camcorder for much over $400 these days that isn't HD. Last year it was $1000, next year, we'll be seeing SD start to vanish.

      --
      -Dave Haynie
    96. Re:Huh? by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      32 bit isn't nearly enough. You're looking at the Falacy of what consumers can see and care about. This is incorrect. This is what led video camera manufacturers to say "8bit video is fine, the eye can't really see more than 8 bits." This is what led the video camera manufacturers to say "4:2:2 color space is fine, the eye can't see blue very well." And what we got were cameras that were incredibly difficult to use, output which was substandard and all around mediocre video.

      8bits at ANY ONE TIME is the critical part of that statement that is true. But selecting those 8 bits per channel is the reason people will be storing 32bit per channel images by 2020. Take one picture and don't set your ISO. Don't set your focus. Don't set your aperture. Don't set your exposure length. Just capture a moment. In that moment your 2020 camera just captured the full dynamic range of the scene from the darkest shadows to the brightest highlights and 32bit high dynamic range. It also shot 240 of these frames during that second with a continuous shutter so that you can blend between them to adjust your exposure length in post. More motion blur.... less motion blur... whatever you want. Your sensor is actually now dozens of megapixel microlensed sensors which when interpolated allow you to adjust your depth of field in post or even choose a different lens's bokeh characteristics. And all of this is in a visually lossless codec. Combined it'll be in excess of 100MB per shot. Which will seem huge by our standards today but still fit a hundred or two photos onto a flash card.

      Which reminds me, camera flashes have gone the way of the dinosaur. No longer are photos ever underexposed, or over exposed, or too blurry, or out of focus. Every shot is salvageable inside even the most primitive program such as iphoto.

    97. Re:Huh? by hazydave · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I wish. I have 30% free on my 6TB RAID, 12% free on my 1.5TB boot drive, and 50% free on my auxiliary 1.5TB drive. Sure, some data can probably be archived, but that's real time involved. It might be cheaper just to drop a couple 2TB drives into the RAID. Ok, I do HD video, one of the big consumers of HDD space.. I don't have a single "ripped" video online. If you did, in HD, you'd need a system that dwarfs this.

      But consider this... in 1993, I was doing serious MIDI music, but I wanted to get into recording. So I spent the $1200 for a Seagate "multimedia capable" HDD.. 2GB. In 2008, I could buy a 2GB flash card for under $10.

      Thus, hopefully, in 2025, I'll be able to buy a 6TB flash card for under $5.. I only paid half that for the storage in the RAID (obviously, the RAID box itself cost something, too).

      --
      -Dave Haynie
    98. Re:Huh? by hazydave · · Score: 1

      It goes with money.. I can get a 2TB drive for about $200. In mid-1999, a 17GB drive cost about $350 (MSRP), give or take.

      250GB will definitely be joke in 10 years, just as 250MB is today. I mean, you can buy 4GB flash card for the price of a big Latte at Starbucks today. I designed a couple of R/C radio controllers (Nomadio), and put 512MB of NV storage in those... just for settings and stuff, several years back. Why is there only 256MB in the Nintendo DSi? Easy.. there's still a joke, it's just on you. They want to keep you dependent on the online site... there's enough flash to keep a few games, a couple MP3s, whatever, on the unit, but hardly enough to keep you away from their portal for long, if you're an avid user. The point of changing the model to online is to increase sales, and that only happens if they get you in the store on a regular basis.

      The cost of the HDD in your PC is pretty invariant... what changes is the capacity. And that can't change, because the cost of the parts remains pretty fixed, so HDDs can only get so small. Sure, flash drives can replace them, to an extent (eg, as long as you're a light user, otherwise, the SSD will wear out long before the HDD would have), for low power/low use situations. But that's going to increase, too, and certainly tape new NV technologies over the next 10 years.. flash itself will probably fail in the marketplace. But for the near future, HDDs will still be cheaper than SDDs, and so storage will rise, simply because that $40-$50 HDD (OEM price in quantity) is still the best option, whether its 40MB or 40TB.

      --
      -Dave Haynie
    99. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Smoke a lot of dope? SSDs are still slower, smaller and more expensive than standard hard drives.

    100. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      100GB quad layer Blu-Ray discs have already been demonstrated and they expect to get the capacity into the terabytes by adding more layers.

      A decade ago Windows 98 needed 200MB of space and the largest hard drives were only about 10GB. Now, Windows 7 needs 16GB of space and the largest hard drives are 2TB. I would say his prediction sounds very plausible.

    101. Re:Huh? by Eil · · Score: 1

      There are some CRTs with horrible latency. I don't recall the technical details, but some manufacturers do some kind of "cheat" in the hardware that improves image quality but makes latency suffer tremendously. Which is fine for web browsing, photo-editing, and word-processing, but is horrible for video games. (There are tons of gaming-related forum threads about this, Google if you're interested.)

      That said, modern LCDs without this defect have more than caught up with CRTs. For example, I'm running a bog-standard Acer X243W which, if the spec sheet is correct, has a response time of 5ms. The frame rate of an NTSC console like the Genesis has a maximum frame rate of 60fps, which translates to 17ms. As long as there is nothing funky going on in the video drivers, graphics adapter, or monitor, this monitor (and most any other on the market) is capable of playing Sonic just fine.

    102. Re:Huh? by sarahbau · · Score: 1

      I don't know. These days, the only thing that makes my computer feel slow is the hard drive. The capacity of hard drives has been keeping up with or exceeding demand, but the speed seems to be increasing much more slowly.

      I'm not sure why we're talking about a 250GB drive in 2020 anyway. SSDs are already that big (and bigger). They just cost a lot right now. While I will probably keep a disk based drive for storage for many years to come, my next boot drive will almost certainly be an SSD. The random access rate of my Raptor not only seems slow, but is very loud. I welcome the extra speed and silence of an SSD, even if it's more expensive.

      Like you said, the price basically stays the same. The point that TimeOday was trying to make wasn't that 250GB SSDs would be available in 2020, but that they would be the commodity keychain drives that 4GB flash drives are today, and could be had for $20. Today 256GB SSDs cost $600 or so. In two years, 256GB will probably be under $200, and 512GB and 1TB drives will be $400 and $600 or so...maybe less. The point he was making is that flash drives have the capacity to be reduced much lower in price than hard drives can, because they don't need the complicated mechanical parts in a disk based drive.

    103. Re:Huh? by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      With movies and high definition, we have already pretty reached the desirable resolution limit with DVD, maybe with the scenery channel you want more but with typical content, all those flaws, poorly expressed emotions, botox I see dead faces, plastic surgery and the reality of actual appearance versus PR=B$, kinda makes a lot of content un-watchable at higher resolutions.

      The reality behind this announcement, a lot of hard disk manufacturers trying to protect the share price of their companies stock, based upon that you should watch insider trading like a hawk on stocks with a highly bound to perceived long term value hard disk drive manufacturing.

      Why is it that announcements like this often herald a large number of shorts and stock trades, just before a major announcement regarding technology changes, with just barely enough gap between the two to prevent prosecution and imprisonment.

      Small usb memory drives are already approaching give away price and in terms of transport and shipping cost they are far cheaper to transport and more durable than a dvd. So not only and hard disk in trouble but optical drives are also looking down the digital gun barrel.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    104. Re:Huh? by fwarren · · Score: 1

      I live in Oregon and we are working on becoming a CRT free state. You can't buy a CRT anyplace other than a yard sale. You are not allowed to sell CRT monitors. Not at a used store, not at Comp-U-Hut, Staples, Comp-USA or Wal-Mart.

      So you cant buy a crt and $140 from amazon gets you a 19" flat panel. Right or wrong. Good or Bad CRTs are gone and LCDs are in.

      --
      vi + /etc over regedit any day of the week.
    105. Re:Huh? by MrNemesis · · Score: 1

      Don't know if it's just the shitty exchange rate here in the UK, but price-per-GB on SSD's has skyrocketed recently; about four months ago I paid £230 for my 120GB OCZ Agility; the same drive is now on sale here for £300. Other brands of SSD's show the same huge jumps (which is a shame as I'm waiting on 6Gbps SATA before I jump onto a new workstation) whereas everything else seems more or less static. Either the price of NAND has risen considerably, or demand is such that supply is low, or manufacturers have decided they can shaft us.

      Still though, I'm not buying another spinning-rust hard drive unless I really need the space. Affordable SSD's are the most important thing to happen to storage this decade.

      --
      Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat
    106. Re:Huh? by Chexum · · Score: 1

      Still - it looks like Clarke's first law could easily apply: "When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

      --
      "Ten years from now, they could do it in a few seconds." -- The Racketeer of the Hellfire Club, 1993, Phrack 42
    107. Re:Huh? by kthejoker · · Score: 1

      Oh, I'm sorry, is 256MB good enough for a gaming console / mobile phone these days?

      At least address the original point.

    108. Re:Huh? by kthejoker · · Score: 1

      So ... back to the original point (and the original article): for the most common of those "non-computer computers" (cellphone, camcorder, camera, GPS, music/video player) is 256MB sufficient?

      Will a 250GB drive be sufficient in 2020? Most likely not, except as a kind of portable drive. Bandwidth expansion, data preservation, increased resolution and fidelity, customer demands, and the increasing integration and synchronization between devices that you directly acknowledge will push us towards bigger and bigger drives.

    109. Re:Huh? by infinite9 · · Score: 1

      Saying Are and Is are both correct.

      Saying Are and Is are both correct, is correct.

      Both are, is correct. Are is both are saying is.

      That depends on what your definition of is is.

      --
      Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
    110. Re:Huh? by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      That's at the high end. But what if you only need 4GB? A solid-state drive will run you about $3.35/GB. Rotating media? Can't do that -- the smallest you can get is an 80GB drive for $35, which works out to $8.75 per gigabyte of used storage.

      (Before you object to my choice of solid-state drives, please note that the CompactFlash interface is parallel ATA with a smaller pin spacing, and adapters cost next to nothing.)

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    111. Re:Huh? by Deluge · · Score: 1

      So long as North American (and especially Canadian) ISPs continue to choke the upstream bandwidth on consumer 'net connections to the point of uselessness, no one will be replacing the HD with cloud storage anytime soon.

    112. Re:Huh? by The_Laughing_God · · Score: 1

      I don't know what "average user" you mean. You may be right, but a properly configured fast 250 MB flash drive at 4-8x the $/GB of HD would be no joke in many *nix systems today, compared with the choices of snails-pace HDD or pricey volatile RAM. I put a small flash in a multidomain host server I run, Even if it is only used for nonvolatile cache or certain OS elements, it offers performance benefits to become a valuable adjunct to current systems. Check the speed of your BIOS chip lately? Contemplate upgrading its size? I didn't think so.

      I also found it odd that people are projecting trends in Windows to 2020. The last I heard, MS itself wasn't even predicting ANY new "Windows" ca 2020. If that sounds outlandish, you have some back reading to do. Proprietary MacOS went away 5-7 years ago. OSX is a *nix kernel. For all its benefits and pitfalls, continued independent development of a completely proprietary Windows OS won't be viable 15 years after all its competition no longer has that solo burden, especially when MS apps/support, not MS OS has been their big profit center for a long time

      Don't take my word for it. Read MS's press releases on the subject over the past year or so. They say there *may* be an proprietary Windows 8, but not a 9. That's one reason they're moving to time-based licenses. Though I love using old hardware for specialty applications, Windows XP's perceived benefits will mean nothing to anyone but hobbyists and extreme geeks 19 years of processor evolution after XP's release in 2001. I struggle to find any use at all for my once-state-of-the-art 1990 486 machines, and frankly, that's an exercise in respect, not practicality, even for a hobbyist geek like me.

      I've been here before: I still own Apple II computers, ostensibly to retrieve data from the hundreds of floppies of my childhood, but realistically, any data I didn't port long ago is gone forever. The early CPU chips, like the 8008/6502 were meant as controllers, when a $20 Arduino would've been a mainframe. If you projected hardware forward from the Apple's 1978 48K (maximum) hard-soldered system RAM and floppies/cassettes to the HDD-based systems of 1988 you'd simply be wrong. I say that as someone who still runs 1999 PCs as specialty controllers

    113. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know I'm rather late to the conversation, but one of my biggest gripes about LCD manufacturers is the fact that they list very misleading figures of response time in spec sheets. From what I can tell, the number they quote is the absolute best they can manage, but it varies greatly depending on the situation. Grey to grey transitions happen much faster than one vivid color to another. If 5ms was the max response time, then you would probably be correct that ghosting doesn't happen...

      There are groups of people who hook up VGA or DVI splitters to their video card for side-by-side comparison of a good CRT to new LCDs, run a clock application showing hundredths of seconds, and take pictures with very fast camera... most LCD monitors (99/100) come out significantly behind (25-50ms... TVs are 3-4x worse) CRTs. There are a handful out there that manage to keep up, but they are very few. The two most popular ones for FPS gaming now are the true 120hz LCD displays that Samsung and Viewsonic released.

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824116402 is the Viewsonic one... I can't recall Samsung's model, but newegg is sold out of it at the moment anyway.

  2. So that means that by 2015... by John+Hasler · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...10 TB drives will be $10? More likely, 100TB drives will be $100 but you won't be able to get anything smaller. And they'll still crap out after a couple of years.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    1. Re:So that means that by 2015... by dgatwood · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Pretty much. And the Seagate folks are forgetting the fixed costs in their estimates. There are a lot of fixed costs that go into manufacturing hard drives. That's the reason prices on HDs aren't dropping. Instead, capacity is increasing, giving the perception that storage is getting cheap. It isn't, though, unless you really expect to use all of that 1 TB capacity. The average computer user uses maybe 1-200 gigs. For them, the effective price of HD storage hasn't changed significantly in about five years.

      The price of SSDs is going down because most of their cost can still be reduced by economies of scale. At some point---probably within a couple of years---the price of a SSD will drop to the point where you can get a 256 GB drive for $100. At that point, it doesn't matter how big the hard drive vendors make their drive capacity; they're through. Most people will buy the much more reliable SSDs over the larger HDs once the price is about the same. At that point, the tables will turn, HD manufacturing will be relegated to power users, and hard drive prices will skyrocket. I'd give them five years. At most.

      Their statement reads like a press release by a company that sees the writing on the wall and is trying to keep stock prices propped up as long as they can. Just saying.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    2. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      Drives can and do die prematurely, but the failure rate isn't so terribly high. Even when I get an SSD for my boot drive & applications, I'll still be using hard drives for the data for several years after that.

    3. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have 12 TB of storage (6 TB currently un-powered) and I am using ~80%

    4. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      In other words, the near future of home computer storage is looking bad as prices are going to significantly increase, with RAIDs of SSDs worth 200+ USD being the closest equivalent to a current 50 USD HDD. (500 GB HDD @ 50 USD vs. 2x256 GiB SSD + RAID controller @ 100 USD per SSD)

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    5. Re:So that means that by 2015... by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

      At some point---probably within a couple of years---the price of a SSD will drop to the point where you can get a 256 GB drive for $100. At that point, it doesn't matter how big the hard drive vendors make their drive capacity; they're through.

      Agreed. It doesn't really matter if the price per TB for magnetic hard drives is much lower than for flash. The question will be, can I get enough storage in my computer without breaking the bank?

      Of course it depends on what amount is "enough". Honestly, on my laptop, I'm only using 25 GB. It's not that I'm trying to keep my storage requirements down. I have 160GB to work with, I just don't store anything except my OS, a few applications, and some documents. My desktop is in about the same state, except add about 20 GB of music. I think the next time I buy a new drive (which may still be a couple years off) it will be SSD.

      On the other hand, I would probably still want something very high capacity for archiving/backup, and hard drives might still be suitable there. Also, it's possible that I could be prodded into collecting movies and TV shows at 1080p like I have MP3s right now, in which cases I might want several hundred gigabytes of video storage. That might be another suitable use for hard drives. So maybe you'll see more of a tiered approach, with smaller/faster SSDs used internally to store the OS and apps, and then bigger external HD for video, backup, and archives.

    6. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Hortensia+Patel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      unless you really expect to use all of that 1 TB capacity. The average computer user uses maybe 1-200 gigs. For them, the effective price of HD storage hasn't changed significantly in about five years.

      I dunno. I've recently noticed that the bigger disk capacities are being advertised as "nnn DVDs", in the same way that they used to be "nnn songs". It's not a given, but ripping DVD collections (and/or storing PVR recordings long-term) might well take off as a mass-market usage. I started ripping my own DVD library recently and believe me, it eats terabytes for breakfast.

    7. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Mr+Z · · Score: 1

      What you're saying is that HD makers need HD porn and lots and lots of torrents to remain relevant, eh?

    8. Re:So that means that by 2015... by coryking · · Score: 1

      The average computer user uses maybe 1-200 gigs.

      Where do you pull that figure from? How much disk space are you using *right now*?

      My desktop? about 600 gb in use now.
      My HTPC? About 3 TB in use now.

      I'd imagine the average disk space in use on a home computer is 400 to 500 gigs.

      Todays $120 1.5TB drives will probably be full by the time the $120 4TB drives come out two years from now.

      For them, the effective price of HD storage hasn't changed significantly in about five years.

      That is an interesting way to frame it provided you dont adjust for inflation, which would make the cost lower every year. But lets just say for the sake of argument that the effective cost has not gone down. There are other things new drives offer besides space. Power consumption is less. Less heat. And most important--less noise. My new drives dont make a peep while 5 year old drives are noisy as hell.

      In the end though, I think a new hard drive or SSD is always gonna cost $100 USD just like getting more memory is gonna cost about $150 or a new CPU is gonna cost $250. The performance or size will be more, but the price point will probably never change.

      Hard drives - if you build it, they will come.

    9. Re:So that means that by 2015... by selven · · Score: 1

      10 TB USB keys will be $10.

    10. Re:So that means that by 2015... by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      That is a lot of pornography.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    11. Re:So that means that by 2015... by coryking · · Score: 1

      So maybe you'll see more of a tiered approach, with smaller/faster SSDs used internally to store the OS and apps, and then bigger external HD for video, backup, and archives.

      And some kind of filesystem that abstracts the whole mess so that you don't have to worry about which bits of data go on which disk. Your computer probably knows which files should be on the fast disk better then you do.

      That said, I would imagine it would be structure in a way that *everything* gets written to the spinning disk so you can take said disk and plug it into another device. Only unlike RAID1 it would only need to mirror the SSD when the IO system is idle.

    12. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The average consumer doesn't keep ~10TB of porn on their computers.

      And doing the math. Wow, you're one sick little monkey. That's ~180 days of 24/7 full speed downloading.

    13. Re:So that means that by 2015... by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      One word you are not: average.

      At least in regards to your storage use.

    14. Re:So that means that by 2015... by coryking · · Score: 1

      Obviously :-) Most of my workstation's disk is full of virtual machine images. The HTPC, well that is obvious.

      Still, I'd be curious how much *data* is on an "average" computer. But even if you got a number, my guess the standard deviation would be quite high. Probably lots in the 750gb bracket and lots in the 10gb bracket.

    15. Re:So that means that by 2015... by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      My guess is that the average would be near 30GB, and the standard deviation fairly low – shit tons of corporate computers out there.

      My guess for home machines only would be close to 150GB at the moment, again with low standard deviation - people with VM images and lots of video files are *far* outnumbered by the masses with their mp3 collection and not much more on there.

    16. Re:So that means that by 2015... by coryking · · Score: 1

      Corporate use? Heck yeah. Probably even lower than 30gb.

      Either way, I agree that for the average user, a 320gb SSD is plenty of space. By the time they graduate to a bigger drive, the 1TB ssd's will cost the same and they can move on in.

    17. Re:So that means that by 2015... by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      But.. why would you do this? DVD's successor is *already* mainstream, and the successor's successor is already being hinted at.

      What you should be doing is trying to get as much for your second-hand DVDs as you can now, before their value drops even further, and just renting Blu-Rays on an as-needed basis. (no point in owning blu-rays, they're an interim medium to ease the adoption of HD and digital sets. I don't know what the longish term medium will be, but it won't be blu-ray.)

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    18. Re:So that means that by 2015... by camperdave · · Score: 3, Informative

      That said, I would imagine it would be structure in a way that *everything* gets written to the spinning disk so you can take said disk and plug it into another device.

      Why would I want my data on a flimsy, fragile mechanical device when I could keep it on a smaller, quieter, cooler, and far more robust electronic device?

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    19. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Hortensia+Patel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But.. why would you do this? DVD's successor is *already* mainstream, and the successor's successor is already being hinted at.

      Why do people rip their CD collections? Because they've got them, and they don't have any burning desire to buy them all over again, and dealing with huge numbers of physical discs is a royal PITA.

      DVD for me hits a "good enough" spot: cheap, reasonable quality, ineffectual DRM. Blu-Ray is higher quality, sure, but I gather the DRM is really obnoxious, and even if it weren't the filesizes are so ludicrous as to rule out all the possibilities that make digital formats a good thing. iTunes downloads and the like are OK for rentals, and I've used them for that, but I actually like owning movies, and that doesn't seem to be an option in the current marketplace. ("DRM that hasn't screwed you yet" is not "ownership".)

    20. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      meh, not impressed.

    21. Re:So that means that by 2015... by CAIMLAS · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I do computer service/repair for a "living" right now. The average user - which, I take it, at least contains the subset of users who are my clients - are using less than 10Gb on average - with many using a couple dozen megabytes, and one or two using 20-30Gb. I've yet to run into a client where I could not simply back up their existing data + OEM install data on a 120G external disk array.

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    22. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah, but due to deflation 10USD will be worth no more than a 1 kB HDD.

    23. Re:So that means that by 2015... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Most home computer users won't notice or care. The future of large quantities of storage for power users, however, is almost certainly much higher prices in the medium term until flash catches up in capacity. The Seagate person is probably right about that being 2020 or later....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    24. Re:So that means that by 2015... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Where do you pull that figure from? How much disk space are you using *right now*?

      It's basically a guesstimate based on what I've seen from my own use after excluding all the stuff I do that normal people don't (massive multitrack audio, large video editing projects, my servers, and so on). After a few searches, I've concluded that this estimate was actually high. Apparently, the real-world numbers are actually low double digits on average. I've seen estimates as low as 10 GB and as high as 30 GB. Your usage is very unusual, as is mine. The mere fact that you're posting on Slashdot pretty much automatically puts you into the "power user" category without further question. :-)

      That is an interesting way to frame it provided you dont adjust for inflation, which would make the cost lower every year.

      Negligibly, yes. And I think there has been a small drop in the base price as well, IIRC. The point was that the drop in flash prices has been much more precipitous.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    25. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Kjella · · Score: 1

      The parent is what should be modded up informative. This is what means SSDs make sense, cost/GB doesn't matter because you can barely get drives under 1-200 GB these days. Put a 32/64GB SSD in there and you cover many people, make it 128 GB and you cover most. And the rest only need 1.5TB+ discs to go with that SSD.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    26. Re:So that means that by 2015... by BikeHelmet · · Score: 2, Informative

      At that point, the tables will turn, HD manufacturing will be relegated to power users, and hard drive prices will skyrocket. I'd give them five years. At most.
      Their statement reads like a press release by a company that sees the writing on the wall and is trying to keep stock prices propped up as long as they can. Just saying.

      You're forgetting about some important factors.

      1) HDDs don't have excessive wear and tear from use. We don't know how long high end SSDs will last - but HDDs can go years of heavy read/write use.
      2) As prices of SSDs drop, companies will flock to the new market, shovelling out short lived crap. (Same thing happened to HDDs)
      2) HDDs will have superior capacity for a very long time. It will be hard to match that for the "best value" drives priced at around $100, or even the cheapest ones priced at ~$50.
      3) HDDs can ramp up the cache to have very awesome performance.

      There was an asian company that created a 3.5" hybrid HDD. It was a 2.5" 5400RPM drive with 1GB of DDR cache, and onboard power backup. That was a few years ago - it had a sustained write of around 145MB/sec, maxing out SATA1.

      Now picture a modern 3.5" drive with dual or quad heads from WD. Add in 4GB of cache, and make it 10000 RPM. Stick it in a DVD drive bay and include battery backup. The cost would literally be hundreds of dollars, but you'd have something like 8TB of space capable of almost maxing out SATA3. (500MB/sec for short bursts under 3 minutes long isn't unrealistic)

      HDD manufacturers aren't backed into a corner yet...

    27. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      ...10 TB drives will be $10?

      All kidding aside, I wouldn't trust any main storage device that costs less than $80, anyway. There are limits to the amount of craftsmanship a company will put into a cheap device, no matter how good technology gets.

      I love my SSD, by the way, now that I've found a good one. Even I'm surprised that 128GB for a coding and Photoshop workstation is plenty of space for my needs.

    28. Re:So that means that by 2015... by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      My guess is that the average would be near 30GB

      I have actually looked at this. On my corporate network, on average the computers have about 45 gig on them. Accounting for the average windows and software footprint, plus all the files stored on the servers that puts the per user average data size around 30-gig. So good guess!

      The average home user who doesn't download lots of video torrents, is probably not much all that much higher. Slashdot weenies who hoards lots of porn and download torrents 24/7 are obviously in a different category.

    29. Re:So that means that by 2015... by DigiShaman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's been my professional experience that a nice percentage of drive failures happen because of the logic board going out, not mechanical. Of course, it could be the heat that's killing them.

      It's too soon to tell, but I'm a little skittish regarding SSD technology. It's getting better, but I'll wait a few more product generations before using them in SQL servers. With HDD crashes, at least the data can be professionally recovered to some degree. But what about SSDs? If the controller dies and/or a PSU fries every chip, I'm afraid all the data would be lost forever!

      Only a historical record of this new technology will determine my level of trust in the future.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    30. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      It's getting better, but I'll wait a few more product generations before using them in SQL servers. With HDD crashes, at least the data can be professionally recovered to some degree. But what about SSDs? If the controller dies and/or a PSU fries every chip, I'm afraid all the data would be lost forever!

      The backup strategy that you are using on your database server is to have your data professionally recovered after a disk crash?

    31. Re:So that means that by 2015... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      ...or 3 years of spending the cost of a decent cable package with lots of channels and HD and buying DVDs instead.

      If not for MPAA stupidity, iTunes and WMP would be enabling it all and making it seem trivial and easy.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    32. Re:So that means that by 2015... by turing_m · · Score: 1

      It's not a given, but ripping DVD collections (and/or storing PVR recordings long-term) might well take off as a mass-market usage.

      What do you mean "might" take off? Who else do you think buys terabyte HDDs?

      --
      If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
    33. Re:So that means that by 2015... by jedidiah · · Score: 3, Informative

      There's a lot of stuff out there that will never be re-released in a
      "better format" because it wasn't created in one to begin with. There's
      50 years of TV and plenty of mediocre movies that don't benefit from
      Blu-Ray.

      The original Star Trek is a great example of this. Sure they had Film
      masters but then they started monkeying around with the original material
      and kind of ruined the whole point of the entire enterprise.

      Some of us already have MP3 collections that are more than 10 years old.

      The idea of decade old MKV collections should seem so odd.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    34. Re:So that means that by 2015... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      ...except Microsoft is trying to push MCE and Apple is trying to push Front Row.

      Sooner or later "normal users" will start using the applications that are being bundled with the 2 main commercial consumer operating systems.

      n00b users certainly like the end result even if the current state of the art (and law) might not allow them to populate their own jukebox.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    35. Re:So that means that by 2015... by turing_m · · Score: 2, Funny

      The backup strategy that you are using on your database server is to have your data professionally recovered after a disk crash?

      For a bonus point, name the RDBMS he is using to store his data (5 letters). For an extra two bonus points, name the small aquatic mammalian mascot of said RDBMS.

      --
      If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
    36. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Hortensia+Patel · · Score: 1
    37. Re:So that means that by 2015... by rolfwind · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I do computer service/repair for a "living" right now. The average user - which, I take it, at least contains the subset of users who are my clients - are using less than 10Gb on average - with many using a couple dozen megabytes, and one or two using 20-30Gb. I've yet to run into a client where I could not simply back up their existing data + OEM install data on a 120G external disk array.

      Not to be rude, but the person who knows more about computers won't be coming to you since they could do it mostly themselves or look it up and those are the types to fill up their drives. They also are probably the market that buy the more expensive drives/CPUs/etc (actually spend money on components up front).

    38. Re:So that means that by 2015... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Sounds more like.... for an extra five bonus points, provide the synonym for "risk" that is the former name of his company and/or the two concatenated adjectives meaning small and not hard that are the current name. :-)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    39. Re:So that means that by 2015... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Those power users are also the 5% case. The top 5% of users do drive the quest for more capacity, but the 95% provide the economies of scale that make it feasible by buying 250 GB drives when they really only need 30 GB. Without their support, the price per gig on hard drives will go up. It's pretty much inevitable.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    40. Re:So that means that by 2015... by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1) HDDs don't have excessive wear and tear from use. We don't know how long high end SSDs will last - but HDDs can go years of heavy read/write use.

      You're joking, right? One of the most common causes of hard drive failures is damage to the heads from the head ramp. That's mechanical damage every time the heads get parked. And in laptops, the rate of damage is even worse because when they get bumped around, the head arm slams itself against the ramp to protect the platters. And the second most common cause is data corruption of the control track, without which the hard drive becomes a brick; there's a theory from one data recovery company that fluid bearings cause vibration that leads to this corruption. And that's not even counting the fact that you have a head arm moving back and forth, bearings spinning, etc. There's plenty of mechanical wear and tear going on, and some of it can be quite catastrophic.

      SSDs have none of those mechanical failure modes. And even the risk of solder ball failure (a common cause of hard drive controller board failure) should be significantly lower because solid state drives generally don't dissipate as much heat as spinning drives. Thus, the failure of a SSD is likely to be fairly predictable in write count to the point that you could set your watch by it, and the exceptions are likely to be much fewer than with hard drives.

      To put this in perspective, ask yourself this: when is the last time you had RAM suddenly go bad? In my life, I can only think of one single time when I've seen RAM that worked from the factory stop working, and I'm not 100% sure even of that one. Hard drives? I lost four last year alone. So it's not a question of whether SSDs will be more reliable on average, but how many orders of magnitude more reliable they will be. My money is on either 2 or 3.

      2) As prices of SSDs drop, companies will flock to the new market, shovelling out short lived crap. (Same thing happened to HDDs)

      Maybe so, but this is what reviews are for. :-)

      2) HDDs will have superior capacity for a very long time. It will be hard to match that for the "best value" drives priced at around $100, or even the cheapest ones priced at ~$50.

      Again, though, if 95% of customers don't need that capacity, there's no reason for them to buy a less reliable technology. And there's little question, given the failure rates on hard drives, that even the most poorly built junk SSDs are going to be more reliable on average, assuming you ignore all drives that are DOA....

      3) HDDs can ramp up the cache to have very awesome performance.

      I'd settle for a tenth of hard drive performance to have avoided my four hard drive failures last year. It was a brutal year. As soon as I can move entirely to SSDs, I'm switching and never looking back.

      Now picture a modern 3.5" drive with dual or quad heads from WD. Add in 4GB of cache, and make it 10000 RPM. Stick it in a DVD drive bay and include battery backup. The cost would literally be hundreds of dollars, but you'd have something like 8TB of space capable of almost maxing out SATA3. (500MB/sec for short bursts under 3 minutes long isn't unrealistic)

      And the average computer user would use... pretty much the 4 GB of cache, and wouldn't ever read or write a single byte to the physical platter except for data reliability reasons.... Saying that hard drive vendors could increase space by fourfold doesn't matter. They could increase it a hundredfold and it wouldn't matter if 95% of the customers don't care. It's like the problem with selling software upgrades. If customers don't see enough value in upgrading, they won't.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    41. Re:So that means that by 2015... by BikeHelmet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wow, I don't know how I missed writing two 2's into that post. :O

      1) Some vendors have a lot better track records. The real question is when have I had a drive fail within two years?

      Well, Seagate 7200.10's were particularly bad. I had two of those start chirping loudly, and RMA'd before the trouble started. But now that I'm mostly WD it seems okay. All my WD drives(~6) have been doing fine for 0-9 years. I even have an old Raptor still going strong, and matching modern drives for performance. (But not capacity or noise)

      The thing is... I've had SD cards fail silently. I'm not so trusting of NAND until it proves itself, and all the reviews are good. I guess you could say, I'm waiting for third gen tech.

      2a) True, true. :P

      2b) Oh, usage will easily rise to 60+ GB for a light user. I mean, we're starting to see games between 10-25GB, and the OS is taking up more and more room, so 60-120GB for a light user is plausible.

      But I see your point about capacity.

      3) If you run Linux... go software RAID on multiple drives. If you run Windows... run a backup script at night - or go RAID-1 and make sure it works properly.

      I've been grateful for backups a couple times now.

      Your point about the value of upgrading is true - but I'm sure Microsoft will do something about it. After all, they helped AMD and Intel with that challenge. ;)

    42. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Their statement reads like a press release by a company that sees the writing on the wall and is trying to keep stock prices propped up as long as they can. Just saying.

      We have a winner. You have just spotted the submarine. Welcome to PR.

    43. Re:So that means that by 2015... by mlts · · Score: 1

      Most operating systems also support hybrid hard disks. I haven't seen many ReadyDrive drives, but I'm sure if there is a market impetus for them, drive makers will happily tack on some flash memory and sell them.

      I see hard disk capacity increases slowing down, but in order to remain competitive, HDD makers will start adding more useful features, such as hardware based disk encryption, additional steps for data integrity (multiple heads, multiple "drive-lets" for one drive that has two mirrors with separate platters/heads, more RAM for cache, etc.)

      There is one big advantage that HDD makers have: They can add flash storage to their offerings with relative ease, while the other way around is difficult to do for chipmakers. I can see not just hybrid drives, but drives that appear to an OS as multiple volumes. For example, a drive that has 16 to 64 gigs of flash storage for static binaries (OS files), and 2-4 TB of spinning storage for the rest of the data.

      HDD makers also have a lot more room to play with than a SSD company, so they can add special features on a drive just for certain tasks, be it enterprise RAID (and ensuring the drives stay in sync), A/V uses (to ensure streaming), encryption co-processers to have enterprise level encryption key management, and so on.

    44. Re:So that means that by 2015... by LordVader717 · · Score: 1

      D-M-C-A

      nuff said.

    45. Re:So that means that by 2015... by BikeHelmet · · Score: 1

      The "hybrid HDD" I described isn't a "Hybrid HDD (Flash)". It has a special controller that uses DDR as cache.

      You are correct about the options available to them.

    46. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      The latest Steam Survey puts 41.49% of PC gamers in the Less Than 250 GB Total HD Space catagory (by less than, that does not include those with 250GB of space.)

      Only 10.44% of PC gamers have over 1 TB of storage.

      I personally think that PC gamers likely have above-average storage available due to more-frequent new system purchases (landing a new HD each time), so saying that an "average" user probably has 200 GB or less is probably just about right on target.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    47. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop stealing movies.

    48. Re:So that means that by 2015... by shiftless · · Score: 1

      In the military, *everyone* under ~25 years old has a 750+ GB external hard drive filled with DVD rips and MP3s, especially in deployed locations where one can easily fill up a fresh 1TB drive in less than a day. I would imagine the same phenomenon is occurring in college dorms as well as any other situation where a bunch of tech savvy kids are living in close proximity. Hard drive manufacturers are putting out larger and larger drives for a reason, and the reason is people are buying them and putting them to use. This trend will continue. 20-200 GB usage might be the norm today, but it won't stay this way.

    49. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Courageous · · Score: 1

      What?!?! You mean RAID isn't backup?!!?

      *blink blink*

      C//

    50. Re:So that means that by 2015... by Courageous · · Score: 1

      Personally, what I think we are going to see is a collapse of the tier 1 high speed segment. Since the profits for the drive companies are very much locked up in that segment, they'll respond with something. That something will likely be an enterprise class drive, spinning at low speed, but with high mtbf (better quality parts), and something to give it performance, such as flash, ram buffer, or both. Pure flash SSD's will take over the entire IOPS segment of tier 1 within 2 years or so. The replacement "enterprise class" drive will not be so much IOPS oriented, as going down market a tad, to places that SSD's can't go (for capacity reasons), but where SATA isn't fully adequate.

      C//

    51. Re:So that means that by 2015... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      The thing is... I've had SD cards fail silently. I'm not so trusting of NAND until it proves itself, and all the reviews are good. I guess you could say, I'm waiting for third gen tech.

      I've had USB flash drives fail, too, but those failures were invariably caused by a solder joint failure at the USB connector. Devices that get constant plugging and unplugging see a lot more connector abuse than a hard drive mounted inside a machine with four screws. I wouldn't be at all surprised if SD cards had similar structural flaws, though I wouldn't begin to guess what they are.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    52. Re:So that means that by 2015... by hazydave · · Score: 1

      Cinematic film should be good up to about 8Mpixel scanning... that holds us though HDTV and into 4K video. Much of early television was done this way. Sure, anything that wasn't Kodachrome and was shot in the 60's is suffering color issues, but much of that can be repaired in modern editing.

      Star Trek-TOS looks better on Blu-Ray than ever before. Of course they did enhanced versions... George Lucas established this as mandatory. But you can turn that off, at least on the BDs. You can also listen to magically created 7.1 sound, or the original mono. Whether the enhanced video ruins it or enhances it is certainly an individual choice. I like the idea.. the series was generally strong enough in storytelling, that was the point. Improving the look makes it more accessible to newbies. I don't think the cheesy SFX were really any kind of "point" to the original series, they were simply part of the reality of NBC budgets convolved with the state of film-making technology back in the mid 1960s.

      MP3 itself has improved a bit, but sure, we have older collections. Mine's a bit newer.. my old, not-backed-up HDD crashed some years back, so when I re-ripped everything, I got to use LAME at 320Mb/s, rather than "whatever" at 128Mb/s. These days, I like FLAC for ripping... with that, I can transcode for any device I might have, now or in the future, without any additional quality loss.

      Decade-old MKV collections shouldn't seem odd, but rather, kinda the point. MKV is gaining popularity largely because it's an open standard, rather than closed standard like Quicktime or MPEG-4. It's not that everyone migrates to MKV because it's open.. it's the openness that delivers free tools that make it easier to use. That won't go away. Though there's a nearly 100% chance that the device you have your MKV files on today will be replaced before then. Open source is the best possible hedge against format rot... crazy consumer acceptance is the next best.

      --
      -Dave Haynie
    53. Re:So that means that by 2015... by hazydave · · Score: 1

      You almost certainly meant 10GB, not 10Gb (=1.25GB) . Not to be overly pedantic, but if you're doing this professionally, it matters.

      --
      -Dave Haynie
    54. Re:So that means that by 2015... by hazydave · · Score: 1

      SSD have a different problem.. flash cells are only good for a relatively small number of rewrites. Ok, maybe it's 500,000 rather than 10,000 (what you can expect from earlier generation dual-level NAND flash), but it's not even remotely comparable to the media life of an HDD.

      HDDs will grow in size entirely independently of consumer size. It's the old "because we can" argument. You can't make an HDD cheaper than a single platter unit, which will cost an OEM around $40 these days. The prices have fallen slightly over the last several decades, but not all that much.. the capacity changes. There is enough of a demand in the HDD market, outside of consumer products, to increase the density, that this will keep happening for the foreseeable future. That new technology will always be applied to the single platter consumer drives, to help establish economies of scale for the rest of the product line.

      The end result is that HDD size in consumer PCs will keep growing. There's a small market for SSD in laptops, but this won't translate to PCs anytime soon.. as much as Joe Sixpack doesn't need a 1TB drive, he also doesn't worry about 150MB/s vs. 75MB/s (or whatever).

      --
      -Dave Haynie
    55. Re:So that means that by 2015... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      The problem with screwing around with a classic is that the changes look out of place. Plus, if the changes are not done well technically they only become more of a sore point as they are already sticking out like a sore thumb. The new effects in Star Trek fit this description perfectly.

      Bad effects in an original get a free pass because they are a reflection of the times in which the original was produced.

      Bad effects in an altered version distract from the original work.

      They're much like the poorly done Jabba sequence from the special edition of Star Wars.

      Both are like colorization. Although the changes in Star Wars have some legitimacy since they were perpetrated by the original author.

      The Star Trek changes weren't. They're purely a Turner style shenanigan.

      They only distract from "the storytelling".

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    56. Re:So that means that by 2015... by MrNemesis · · Score: 1

      Last time I looked at the Intel X25 specs, you could write to them at their maximum rate 24/7 for something like a decade before the cells would start to fail writing (but you'd still be able to read them). I doubt you'd see such longevity from a spinning rust hard drive.

      --
      Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat
    57. Re:So that means that by 2015... by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Actually, in my experience, with mechanical drives, you're more likely to have a failure in a drive that gets less use and spins down frequently than in a drive that is being written to constantly. The drives I've dealt with that never spin down have excellent life (e.g. drives in TiVo hardware that write pretty much continuously). Flash is poorly suited for that particular workload, but in practice, it's a workload that you'll almost never see in the real world, with the notable exception of DVRs and high volume servers. :-)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  3. Maybe the cheapest - but does it matter? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Once SSD storage gets large enough for a reasonable price (and it seems that this will happen soon), why should I care if I can get 10 times the capacity for the same price?

  4. Define 'cheapest' by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you mean 'lowest cost per GB' then you're probably right. If you mean 'lowest cost per IOPS' then you're already wrong. And if we're talking 'lowest cost for something of adequate capacity and a low power consumption for a laptop' then you're also probably wrong too. When flash drives drop below about $1/GB (and it's already close) there will be little advantage in mechanical disks for most users. It doesn't matter if the disk is bigger if you're only using 10% of the capacity, and it's slower than the alternative and uses more power.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    1. Re:Define 'cheapest' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't matter if the disk is bigger if you're only using 10% of the capacity, and it's slower than the alternative and uses more power.

      Who the HELL runs at 10% of the capacity? I have as much data as I can afford storage space to save the data in.

      Granted, this isn't my grandparents' use profile, but the people who are entering college now? They've never lived in a world without the internet, and they're the ones who are going to define the future use profiles.

    2. Re:Define 'cheapest' by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Who the HELL runs at 10% of the capacity?

      Most of the non-geeks I know have under 10GB of data. They have cheap digital cameras that produce images in the 1-2MB range, so they don't take up much space, and they don't record video. Most of these people are in the 20-30 age bracket. And most of the 'Internet generation' don't bother storing stuff from the 'net. Why bother, when you can just download it again if you want it?

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:Define 'cheapest' by dkf · · Score: 1

      Most of the non-geeks I know have under 10GB of data. They have cheap digital cameras that produce images in the 1-2MB range, so they don't take up much space, and they don't record video. Most of these people are in the 20-30 age bracket.

      One of things that's known to be true is that people's usage changes as they get older. They get more expensive (higher resolution) gadgets. They take more pictures/videos, and these are of things that can't be downloaded again (e.g., of friends' weddings or children's first steps). Their usage will rise.

      Not at the rate at which storage capacity per $ is increasing though.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    4. Re:Define 'cheapest' by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Who the HELL runs at 10% of the capacity? I have as much data as I can afford storage space to save the data in.

      Almost all laptops at my company for example. There's a few exceptions in development but everyone else mostly runs Office or some equally small applications and work on files less than 10 MB in size. I'd say that's a considerable market that's prime to switch to SSD since they're paying a rather high $/hour cost on people, it doesn't take many seconds per operation to save the cost of a SSD.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    5. Re:Define 'cheapest' by countertrolling · · Score: 1

      Why bother, when you can just download it again if you want it?

      Don't count on it. Shit gets lost all the time. Like just now I discovered that Slashdot deleted all the comments from articles posted before 1999. There went a bit of history up in smoke.

      --
      For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
    6. Re:Define 'cheapest' by petermgreen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not at the rate at which storage capacity per $ is increasing though.
      Which is the key, I remember the time when even storing 128K MP3s ate up your hard drive in a hurry if you had a nontrivial music collection (hell at one stage I transcoded most of my MP3s to 64K mono and got rid of the originals). Nowadays even in uncompressed CD quality (the highest quality format most people bother to use) music takes up very little space relative to the size of hard drives.

      The same applies to the output from digicams, even high res ones in raw mode (and I doubt anyone except photography geeks uses raw mode).

      Video is the one common thing left that really clogs up hard drives so unless some big new application comes along I see hard drive space becoming less and less of an issue.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    7. Re:Define 'cheapest' by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>One of things that's known to be true is that people's usage changes as they get older. They get more expensive (higher resolution) gadgets. They take more pictures/videos, and these are of things that can't be downloaded again (e.g., of friends' weddings or children's first steps). Their usage will rise.

      Yes, very true. One of the obnoxious side effects of the megapixel race, besides providing no image quality difference and actually decreasing the amount of light that hits each sensor (on our tiny, tiny sensors already in the P&S world), is that it makes file sizes ridiculously large. I turned my 10MP camera down into taking 6MP shots. A 40% reduction in file size, and even on a 46" 1080p screen, the images it took were identical.

      But my new camera now also takes much larger videos than my older camera that I just replaced. VGA at 30fps means I can easily exceed 1GB for a longish shot.

      I also have 80GB of (non-porn, I should mention) photographs and videos on my computer, counting both 70GB of stuff I've taken myself, and 10GB of funny images and videos downloaded from the internet.

      I think that our current style of HDs will be the bulk storage medium of choice for at least a couple years to come. I'm toying with the notion of building a new machine with a RAID0 SSD setup (RAID0 Hard Drives are faster than individual SSDs) for the OS and applications, but even applications take up ridiculous amounts of space now. AION is around 10GB, my WoW directory around 20GB, some stupid 4X game that I bought that isn't 4X (Grand Ages: Rome) was 4GB or so, etc. etc. And a fair number of programs cause trouble if you don't install on the OS's hard drive. I remember using one of these digital download installers that insisted on downloading all its data onto C, even though it was full, and I had plenty of space on my other drives, for example.

    8. Re:Define 'cheapest' by hazydave · · Score: 1

      Thing is, non-geeks don't drive the market. They do enable it.. the technologies everyone gets in their PCs makes everyone else's HDDs cheaper. But there is always going to be the 1 platter rule... consumer PCs get an HDD with one platter, whatever that is. In order to make larger drives cost effective, the HDD makers need to leverage from the consumer market (as do any other companies serving a variety of markets in a very competitive field). The cheapest HDD made will always be based on the commodity technology of the day, the same stuff used in all but perhaps the crazy high-end.

      Also, there's competition. An OEM pays $35-$50 for an entry-level PC HDD, last I checked (I used to do this stuff professionally). That's fallen slightly over the last few decades, but slowly. You will never find, say, a Seagate claiming that 500GB or 5TB or whatever is "enough", simply because, if they did, in a year or so Western Digital or someone else would deliver a 1TB or 10GB drive at the same price, and the OEM wouldn't pause a femtosecond in deciding to go ahead with that.

      --
      -Dave Haynie
    9. Re:Define 'cheapest' by VoltageX · · Score: 1

      Why bother, when you can just download it again if you want it?

      Not all of us can. Download quotas in Australia are pathetic.

      --
      "Anonymous could not immediately be reached for further comment." - International Business Times
  5. Speed vs Capacity by cjfs · · Score: 2, Informative

    Although flash memories have also become popular - with advantages such as lower power consumption, faster read access time, and better mechanical reliability than HDDs

    So HDDs will still be tops in terms of capacity, but SSDs win in everything else. They're getting to the price range now that they're a viable replacement for high-end systems that don't need massive storage. I doubt I'll even have a HDD in the next system I build, SSDs provide enough capacity.

    1. Re:Speed vs Capacity by mwvdlee · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing the (near) future will simply be HDD in NAS for "third party" files like MP3's and movies and SSD in PC's for OS/apps/personal files.

      From what I hear, more and more people are using NAS and the scenario I describe above only seems logical when using NAS.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    2. Re:Speed vs Capacity by Krneki · · Score: 1

      Why choose only one storage option? I think I'll mix them, one for system performance and the other for storing my multimedia files, it's not like it needs much power if it is offline most of the time.

      --
      Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
    3. Re:Speed vs Capacity by Skal+Tura · · Score: 1

      HDDs won't always top on capacity.
      Right now Intel's X25-M 80Gb costs 289$ according to newegg.

      If moore's law hold true on SSDs aswell, like it should and has been for past, we are talking fast change here. As a thought:
      1½years, 80gb/145$
      3years, 160gb/145$
      4.5years 320gb
      6years 640gb/145$ still ... or 320gb for ~73$ or 160gb for ~37$ ....

  6. Prediction eh by xtal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The fact a major, respected, industry leader has predicted an upstart new technology will not surpass the incumbent technology is an indication it is almost certainly false.

    --
    ..don't panic
    1. Re:Prediction eh by jimicus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The fact a major, respected, industry leader has predicted an upstart new technology will not surpass the incumbent technology is an indication it is almost certainly false.

      An industry leader who runs a company that has sold off all the other parts of the company over the years and now produces nothing but hard drives.

      Let's be honest, he's hardly going to say "Disks are dead within 5 years. Unfortunately, we'd need to put in 6 years of R&D to catch up with everyone else in the solid state storage arena."

    2. Re:Prediction eh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not such a great argument.

      Seagate is not a stupid company. If they know of some new technology which is going to fare than hard disks as we know today, they can certainly invest in creating products around it.

    3. Re:Prediction eh by mark-t · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, it's a pretty solid argument... at least if you talk in terms of historical precedent. Every time that I can think of in the past that somebody in such a position has predicted some new technology not really taking off anytime soon, that prediction has been quite wrong.

  7. Uhh.... DUH by jhfry · · Score: 1

    Of course they will be cheapest, but only cheapest per/GB.

    As time goes on, SSD's will be the default in desktops and laptops... mostly because these systems don't need very large drives... especially as we move more and more data to the "cloud".

    Sure, per GB, magnetic storage will remain king when it comes to capacity, but they will only be used by those with extreme storage needs.

    --
    Sometimes the best solution is to stop wasting time looking for an easy solution.
    1. Re:Uhh.... DUH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can still remember the days when hard drives where optional, and dual-floppy drives where more than enough. And I'm only 31 yet.....

    2. Re:Uhh.... DUH by syousef · · Score: 1

      Of course they will be cheapest, but only cheapest per/GB.

      The very definition of cheapest.

      As time goes on, SSD's will be the default in desktops and laptops... mostly because these systems don't need very large drives... especially as we move more and more data to the "cloud".

      You've fallen for nothing but marketing drivel. The idea that programs and data are going to be more reliable and better (including better trusted) when one or more random organisations are in charge of it is just plain laughable. This is just data/software outsourcing at it's worst, with a bit of thin client drivel thrown in topped with meaningless buzzwords 2.0.

      Sure, per GB, magnetic storage will remain king when it comes to capacity, but they will only be used by those with extreme storage needs.

      My main machine runs with 4 Terabytes. I have over half a TB of photos, most going back 10 years, some scanned going back before I was born. I also have multiple backups on removable drives on and off site. I prefer still photography but if I were interested in video my needs would be more "extreme". I think you'll find lots of people have needs you'd define as extreme. There's nothing extreme about it. Liberating is what it is. People who do nothing but surf the web, read email, and spend their lives on social networking sites, with the very occassional need to produce a word document for work might not need lots of storage. Other people will.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    3. Re:Uhh.... DUH by chapstercni · · Score: 1

      And I hope it is RAID'ed...
      I have a mere 500GB storage.. but it is mirrored.
      Lots of data on one device without redundancy is scary.
      Harddrives WILL crash. EVERYTHING crashes.

    4. Re:Uhh.... DUH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am only 21 and I remember that!!!

    5. Re:Uhh.... DUH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The cheapest per GB are DVDs at about 3.5c per GB. Hard drives are about 8.5c per GB. You might find it more liberating keeping your 1000 photos of uncle ted from every side of your house on a spindle of DVDs packed in a box behind the coal shed.

    6. Re:Uhh.... DUH by syousef · · Score: 1

      The cheapest per GB are DVDs at about 3.5c per GB. Hard drives are about 8.5c per GB. You might find it more liberating keeping your 1000 photos of uncle ted from every side of your house on a spindle of DVDs packed in a box behind the coal shed.

      The time and effort to burn and read those DVDs makes the option impractical. 1 TB would require over 200 DVDs. Swapping them in to read them again later? No thanks.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    7. Re:Uhh.... DUH by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      I'm not so sure about that.

      Now what someone ought to do is get some historical data from pricewatch, and plot log(price/gb) vs year for all the data points, get some trendlines from the scatter plot and determine the likely intercept year.

      Someone did do a weak version of that a couple years ago, and guessed that the intercept would be fairly soon iirc. Within the next couple of years even.

      I don't know how accurate that estimate is, but I find suspicious that the 2020 estimate comes from a maker of hard drives...

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    8. Re:Uhh.... DUH by jhfry · · Score: 1

      I'm 32, and my first PC used ROM basic and I saved my programs to an audio cassette.

      --
      Sometimes the best solution is to stop wasting time looking for an easy solution.
    9. Re:Uhh.... DUH by jhfry · · Score: 1

      No, the very definition of cheapest is "the cheapest solution that meets your needs".

      Most of my machines are content with little more than enough storage to hold the OS and any data I am currently working with. Beyond that I use a large file server for the bulk of my data.

      So in my case, if I can buy a 2TB magnetic drive for $200, or for the same price buy a faster, quieter, lower power solid state drive I would opt for the latter. In my case I am more concerned about price/transfer rate, price/power requirements, and price/noise level.

      Finally, I never said that the "cloud" is the best place for data. Only that more and more people are moving to low powered devices that do little more than access internet resources... which further reduces the needs of having large storage devices on their workstations. Instead they want fast, quiet, low power, and portable storage.

      --
      Sometimes the best solution is to stop wasting time looking for an easy solution.
    10. Re:Uhh.... DUH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can still remember the days when hard drives where optional, and dual-floppy drives where more than enough. And I'm only 31 yet.....

      I'm only a couple of years older than you, and I can remember when the majority of home users were still using cassettes for storage!

      I don't want to sound like the Four Yorkshiremen, but dual-floppy disks would have been luxury, and hard drives not even an option for most people due to the cost.

      To be fair, I think in the US a lot more people had disk-based systems during the mid-to-late 8-bit era; here in the UK, they weren't common until the 16-bit systems took over.

      I had a floppy drive with my system, but that's only because one of the major UK chains was selling off Atari 800XL and 1050 drive combos at a very reduced price. People with the more popular Spectrum or Commodore 64 mostly didn't.

      "Dual-floppy drives where more than enough"? Dual floppy drives were a relative *rarity*, except possibly in business and in schools!

    11. Re:Uhh.... DUH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not betting on the cloud that much. Why? Bandwidth essentially hasn't been increased for average consumers since cable/DSL providers started with their products. I'm almost sure that in 2020, we will have essentially the same transfer rates from home to servers as we do now. So, cloud computing is useless as a primary storage medium.

      However, there is one thing which is starting to emerge as a market instead: Home servers. Because most people have relatively fast LAN connections via 100 base T, Wi-Fi, or gigabit Ethernet, and that the hardware to put out the relative high bandwidth for intranets is inexpensive. If one network segment gets saturated, dedicated individuals can either bond multiple 1000 base T connections, or have machines use different LAN fabrics for different tasks (a dedicated sub-LAN for backups for example.) I'd place bets that this is where a storage focus will be. Microsoft and HP have been dabbling in this market for a couple years now with small disk arrays and Windows Home Server. Apple tossed their hat into the ring with the Mac Mini that runs OS X Server and has two drives (eschewing the internal optical drive).

      Right now, Joe Sixpack isn't used to having a NAS at his place, but with some marketing, that can be solved. Apple's Time Capsules are a good example of this. Should someone make a similar item for Windows and every simple to deploy software to people can back their machines up to it, the unwashed masses will eventually get used to a home server.

      Next, add streaming media functionality to allow playing of movies and music files to both computers and TVs. Then, perhaps add some DVR capability, and a home server appliance would earn a permanent place in the home.

  8. Fragmentation by Sumbius · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I for one, just like many others, prefer hard disks over solid-state because of their more predictable lifespan. Solid-state drives tend to slowly lose parts of their usable sections. Even though the good old hard disks tend to break easily, at least I can defragment them without slowly starting to damage the disk. Yep, there are 2 different kinds of solid-state drives which handle this problem differently, but I still don't think the technology is matured enough yet. Perhaps in a few years. As for the mini laptops and such, solid-state seems to be superior though. Many of the first mini laptops used solid-state, but now only very few have them. Why this direction of development?

    1. Re:Fragmentation by Darkness404 · · Score: 4, Informative

      "more predictable lifespan"? I take it someone hasn't had a drive head crash... SSDs have wear-leveling and usually on sectors that go bad it is still readable, you just can't write to it. HDDs are more prone to cataclysmic failure compared to SSDs, a SSD usually won't break unless you manage to physically break the circuit board, compared to the fragile platters of the HDD, etc. SSDs fail nicely, HDDs do not.

      --
      Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
    2. Re:Fragmentation by 0123456 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      SSDs fail nicely, HDDs do not.

      Perhaps I'm out of date, but from what I've read on the subject I was under the impression that SSDs were far more likely to suffer catastrophic failures than HDDs. Certainly of the numerous hard disks I've owned, the few that failed before I replaced them showed an increasing number of read errors and then bad sectors, giving plenty of notice that it was time to copy the data somewhere else.

    3. Re:Fragmentation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're joking, right?

      Do you not understand the meaning of the word predictable?

      SSDs can and do wear out and lose the use of sectors, but only after a fairly well quantified amount of usage. It's a problem, but easily avoided with good wear leveling and read/write accounting by the controller firmware.

      HDDs tend to work one day, and the next random day not work (due to head crashes, dust, or sometimes just angry words).

      SSDs beat HDDs in every performance and reliability category

      A machine with moving parts will NEVER be more reliable than one without moving parts.

    4. Re:Fragmentation by owlstead · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or for some reason have a defective firmware, like I have on my Intel G2 SSD. Of course, that was maybe to be expected for any early adopter. Be aware though that this is a rather new technology. Some things are still developing like TRIM support and fast(er) writes.

    5. Re:Fragmentation by BikeHelmet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You're correct, but I have two nitpicks.

      First, don't confuse NAND used in SD cards and stuff with the same NAND used in SSDs. They're quite different qualities.

      I've had SD cards drop 1/8th their capacity after days of heavy use. SSDs, however, have higher quality NAND and wear-levelling controllers. For Linux, they have better filesystems, too.

      Second, up until the newest generation, most SSDs were susceptible to debilitating speed loss after some usage. To be safe, you had to half the benchmarked results. With TRIM and smarter controllers, this is mostly solved, but very heavy usage for extended periods will still result in speed loss. Remember, on an HDD deleting is basically a free operation, but on an SSD it has to physically erase. This would be most noticeable for say... a security camera box recording a dozen or more streams 24/7.

    6. Re:Fragmentation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      You do not defragment an SSD. Ever. Not only does it potentially wear the disk out, it has no performance benefit anyway, and the idea that your files are now defragmented is an illusion anyway, since SSD controllers do not write files in contiguous blocks. Fragmentation hardly hurts SSDs at all, as long as you have decent read-ahead (which all current OSes do), and NCQ (which all current OSes and SSDs do).

    7. Re:Fragmentation by LordVader717 · · Score: 1

      Solid-state drives are instantly block-addressable for the entire capacity, so why would you even worry about disk fragmentation?
      Having said that I've never used performance SSDs, so maybe you can enlighten me.

  9. Very old article by iYk6 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    today, a typical 500 GB hard drive costs about $100

    This article must be several years old. In present day, a 1TB hard drive costs about $80.

    October 23rd, 2009 By Lisa Zyga

    Doh!

    1. Re:Very old article by Suiggy · · Score: 2, Informative

      For a 5200rpm "green" drive, perhaps. But for 7200rpm enterprise-grade storage with RAID support, like Western Digital's RE3 and RE4 line of drives, you're still up at around $200 for a 1TB drive and $375 for a 2TB drive.

    2. Re:Very old article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're going by Best Buy prices, not Newegg.

    3. Re:Very old article by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Informative

      But most SSDs are designed for laptops because that's where hard drives are most at risk. A 500 GB laptop drive does cost almost $100.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    4. Re:Very old article by Carra · · Score: 1

      I wish we Europeans could buy it for that price. Closer to €100 here...

    5. Re:Very old article by masterzora · · Score: 1

      It's about $90-$100 for a 1TB WD Caviar Black which, quite frankly, is the only terabyte drive your average home user should even look at. For those of us looking for something enterprise-grade, then, yeah, an RE3 is a bit more, but we're certainly not average.

      --
      Remember, open source is free as in speech, not free as in bear.
    6. Re:Very old article by Rudeboy777 · · Score: 1

      Not for a 500GB drive in a fancy shrink-wrapped box (with plenty of useless software) which is what is being referred to.

      --

      From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc

    7. Re:Very old article by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Okay, this is off-topic. Mod down if you want.

      What do you get with an enterprise-grade HDD? I'm pretty sure I shouldn't get one, but I am curious.

    8. Re:Very old article by LordVader717 · · Score: 1

      You mean this?

    9. Re:Very old article by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Enterprise-grade is designed to be run continuously, and under heavy use. Generally, it's assumed that consumer drives won't be run 24/7, and when they're on most of the time they just idling.

      Furthermore, it's also assumed that enterprise drives are going to be in a RAID, so if they have a problem they'll give up a lot faster with the assumption that the RAID controller can better deal with the data loss. Whereas the consumer drive will keep retrying to read the data for a while before giving up. For that reason, you really don't want to use the drives intended for RAID as a standard desktop drive.

      Also, I wouldn't buy WD as the failure rates with WD drives are terrible.

  10. Wrong, because... by PalmHair · · Score: 1

    ... 7200 RPM should be enough for anybody.

    1. Re:Wrong, because... by pantherace · · Score: 1

      Lies! ...Though 15k should be. If only because of the noise and heat! ;)

  11. ROFLMAO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah right.
    Obviously this dude has his head stuck in the sand.
    Cheaper alternatives to hard disks will almost certainly be at hand by 2020. Probably by 2018, and possibly as soon as 2014.

    Lack of insight might be the reason why he is the _former_ CTO of Seagate.

    1. Re:ROFLMAO by glebovitz · · Score: 1

      His head is stuck somewhere, but I suspect it is not in the sand.

  12. I'm not about to trust this one... by Suiggy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I mean, both Intel and OCZ have said that once they get to tri and quad-state MLC flash technology, prices should drop considerably by 2012. I think Seagate just doesn't want to be relegated as a dying tech company.

    1. Re:I'm not about to trust this one... by imsabbel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And even if it would drop down to 1/4th, it would still be 10 times as expensive as hard drives are today.

      It will NEVER be cheaper to make chips than to put magnetic films on some metal / glass discs, at least if you are looking at large amounts of storage.

      Its just the fact that the performance gain will enable more and more uses.
      For bulk storage of Petabytes i will bet that you will go for hard drives even after 2020.

      PS: Tri /quad state (is really 8 / 16 state, as MLC already has 4 states to get 2 bits) will be fragile as hell. Those 3bit/cell chips availabe today are more like 100 write cycles...

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
    2. Re:I'm not about to trust this one... by Microlith · · Score: 2, Informative

      Tri- and Quad-state MLC NAND is basically DOA. The reliability of Two-bit-per-cell NAND is plummeting with each litho revision as fewer and fewer electrons are available for noting the state. As it stands, they're piling on more and more ECC to account for the incredibly bad quality of NAND as it is.

    3. Re:I'm not about to trust this one... by exley · · Score: 1

      ... as fewer and fewer electrons are available for noting the state.

      D'oh! Who could have ever predicted the Great Electron Shortage of the 2010s?

      Seriously WTF was that statement supposed to mean?

    4. Re:I'm not about to trust this one... by agnosticnixie · · Score: 1

      They're replacing laptop hard drives, which are 20-50c the GB. MLC drives are already about 2-3$ the GB.

    5. Re:I'm not about to trust this one... by vadim_t · · Score: 1

      Flash traps electrons inside the floating gate.

      For SLC it's easy, as there are two possible states for the cell: 0 and 1.
      For MLC you have 4 states: 00, 01, 10 and 11. Which means that there may be 4 levels of charge inside the gate and you have to measure it precisely to tell which value it has.

      As things smaller, less electrons fit inside the gate, and there's less margin for error. Since MLC needs greater measurement precision it'll bump into limitations first.

    6. Re:I'm not about to trust this one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And don't forget that Gates too claimed that 640 k memory should be enough.

    7. Re:I'm not about to trust this one... by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      It will NEVER be cheaper to make chips than to put magnetic films on some metal / glass discs

      I'm not a hard drive engineer, but I suspect that the magnetic film costs less than the read mechanism. Since there are no heads, stepper motors, etc., in SSDs, they can potentially get cheaper than HDDs.

    8. Re:I'm not about to trust this one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No he didn't. And just because people continue to repeat it doesn't mean it will ever be true.

    9. Re:I'm not about to trust this one... by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      Which means that there may be 4 levels of charge inside the gate and you have to measure it precisely to tell which value it has.

      Precisely?

      They just have to distinguish between the charges with high reliability, which is way different than precise measurement.

      This same concept has already been applied to just about every digital to analog communications strategy currently employed over the past 50 or so years.

      This is in effect a digital to analog problem until they start using single electron increments for charge differentiations, which is never going to happen.

      The fact is that MLC have two routes for improvements.. more levels per cell OR more cells per volume of space, and if you know a bit about information theory you know that these two seemingly different things are really the same thing. Cells can get a LOT smaller, therefore they can also handle a lot more levels at their current size.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
  13. SSDs will soon be "cheap enough" by Ritz_Just_Ritz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Most of my non-server machines only use about 40-50gb of disk space, even though the hard drives have gradually grown from 20 to 40 to 120 to 500 to 1500GB over the last few years. Each time I build a system, I tend to throw in whatever drive costs about $100-125 when I order my parts. So based on my past usage model, I'd have no problem switching over to SSD if I can get say...128GB of storage for $100-125. On those occasions where I need a big chunk of permanent storage, I'll just get some sort of external hard disk that will undoubtedly continue to plummet in price.

    1. Re:SSDs will soon be "cheap enough" by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

      On those occasions where I need a big chunk of permanent storage, I'll just get some sort of external hard disk that will undoubtedly continue to plummet in price.

      This is why I love eSATA :D

    2. Re:SSDs will soon be "cheap enough" by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't think we will have "disk drives" for much longer. My eeepc has flash soldered in. Desktop motherboard manufacturers will start to do that too. Laptop manufacturers will save space by eliminating drive bays.

      Its less flexible but that just promotes obsolescence, which the manufacturers love.

    3. Re:SSDs will soon be "cheap enough" by symbolset · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is a bad idea. Yes, the manufacturer gets a little more reliability - no contacts to corrode or lose contact. They save a few cents on the connector they don't use and a process on the insertion of the removable media. But SSD storage is doubling every year, so in the three year life span of a computer your storage would get 8x capacity - for the eeepc from 8GB to 64.

      I know they opt to save the pennies. They shouldn't because this is a feature that drives the long tail of sales.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
  14. Here's a Radical Idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The guy's absolutely right on this and there's nothing really to argue about.

    1. Re:Here's a Radical Idea: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The guy's absolutely right on this and there's nothing really to argue about.

      I disagree.

    2. Re:Here's a Radical Idea: by daninspokane · · Score: 1

      No one is ever right on /.
      No one

      --
      Slashdot is too nerdy for me.
    3. Re:Here's a Radical Idea: by Bai+jie · · Score: 1

      Even you? But that means...now I have a headache.

  15. Get both by ShooterNeo · · Score: 1

    Duh. New desktop PCs and full scale laptops should have 2 disks in them. An SSD, with the C: drive partition with the OS and Program Files folders. Nearly all software will install itself to the SSD by default that way. Also the swap partition should go here.

    "My Documents\Downloads" and the default download directories should go to the mechanical hard disk. The slightly complex part is that users should know to store small files to the SSD and big ones to the hard disk, unless the big files are something that needs to be accessed quickly (like a large pdf document).

    OS support would be the best way : a smart OS could 'cache' files to the SSD or automatically remove files from the SSD when it's getting full. The typical user isn't going to properly manage a divide like this.

    1. Re:Get both by pseudonomous · · Score: 1

      ZFS is supposed to do this (on solaris), and you're right, the best way to take advanate of this would be smart system software; on the other hand, simply creating two folders: Large_Files and Small_Files and doing the management yourself shouldn't be that bad... anyway, I think this is probably the not-so-distant future of storage; "smart storage" where often accessed files or files where fast read/write speeds are the most critical should be on an SSD while other files, are stored to conventional spinning platter drives.

    2. Re:Get both by coryking · · Score: 1

      OS support would be the best way : a smart OS could 'cache' files to the SSD or automatically remove files from the SSD when it's getting full

      Bingo. The file system would basically abstract out the fact there is a really slow but huge drive and a fast but relatively small drive. You'd have a "C:" drive and the file system would hide the fact that it would be using the SSD as basically a 300+ GB cache for your 4TB disk. Only unlike your RAM, it doesn't have to worry about what happens when it loses power as the SSD doesn't lose its contents. This means it might never have to write things out to a spinning platter.

    3. Re:Get both by ShooterNeo · · Score: 1

      No, it wouldn't be that bad doing it yourself. Personally, my future machines will have enough SSD storage to hold absolutely everything BUT video files, audio files, and pictures. That would be one intelligent way to decide what files to move to the mechanical disk : for the most part, any sort of video file or audio file can be safely put on a hard drive without losing performance. In both cases, the computer reads the file in a predictable, sequential manner when playing back that kind of file, and even high definition video files don't consume that much hard disk 'bandwidth' per second when playing.

      Windows Vista/Windows 7 already support a folder remapping technology where files can appear to be in one folder when they are actually secretly being stored elsewhere.

      The most trouble free way I can think of would be to have, by default, the SSD be the only "visible drive". As the user uses the machine, when the machine is idle or when there is a lot of spare disk resources, the OS would move files to the mechanical hard drive. It would move stuff that has metadata indicating it's a video or audio file, installation and restore files in the Windows directory (and many, MANY other useless windows folder files that never get accessed). Depending on free space available to the SSD, it would move a lot more stuff as needed.

    4. Re:Get both by Gothmolly · · Score: 1

      FAIL. You should not swap, period. What is this "My Documents" directory you speak of?

      --
      I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
    5. Re:Get both by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      FAIL. You should not swap, period.

      Oh, they're so cute when they're young and idealistic! Back in reality, I have a database server with 8 cores, 16GB of RAM, and 500+GB of RAID-10 storage. For all but an hour a month, that's abundantly sufficient for everything we ask of it. For that one hour, though, a bit of that RAID turns into swap while we run some gigantic monthly financial queries.

      Your ideal solution would be to spend a few thousand dollars in programmer time to make those queries run faster, or drop at least a thousand on a set of 4GB ECC DIMMs. My practical solution involves allocating 16GB out of 500 to swap for the one hour out of 720 that our normal resources aren't sufficient. Frankly, I like my idea better, and I know that my boss does too.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  16. I predict... by ProfMobius · · Score: 1
    I predict that when the cheapest SDD will be around the same price as HDD, people will switch to SDD whatever the capacity is.

    I also predict the death of internet porn at the same time.

    --
    EULA : By reading the above message, you agree that I now own your soul.
  17. Do they have a crystal ball? by 2.7182 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Seriously why waste time and energy thinking about this? It can't be predicted. Imagine in 1947: "There is no forseable way to improve computing speed for 20 years."

    1. Re:Do they have a crystal ball? by eric-x · · Score: 1

      Because the mind does two things very well:
      -thinking useless thoughts
      -thinking about the future

    2. Re:Do they have a crystal ball? by H3g3m0n · · Score: 1

      Really depends on what they mean by replacement.

      I would argue that SSD's have already replaced magnetic drives for situations where speed is the most important factor, although there arn't really too many situations like that (and many of those can use ramdisk).

      For desktops, laptops, netbooks and workstations a few GB are enough and the increase speed is much more useful. I have a 60gb OCZ Vertex SSD on my desktop. Spae wise its fine and I'm dual booting. I do have a 2ndry drive but its only used for games.

      Most people won't likely need 14TB in 2020. I have 4TB currently and am using around 3TB, but I'm not most people. Obviously data centres will need bulk storage too. And 14TB would probably last me until 2020.

      Another issue is that it's going to get harder and harder to cram bits magnetically (the superparamagnetic effect), I believe they are already running into some problems although there are alternative solutions such as a flat square bed that moves rather than the magnetic disk with arm for example. Flash on the other hand can just stack the chips and will likly follow Moore's law which won't be likely to run into problems until after 2020.

      We could see a large migration to cloud storage for home users (obviously the backend will still be magnetic). People will stream videos rather than save them for example.

      The price halving time for NAND Flash is 1.4 years, Kryder's Law says something similar: http://www.mattscomputertrends.com/Kryder's.html

      --
      cat /dev/urandom > .sig
    3. Re:Do they have a crystal ball? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is pretty shortsighted considering how large and complex data and software has gotten over the past couple of decades. By 2020, 14TB will be nothing, just as 14GB is nothing now and 14MB was nothing in 1999.

      I still remember when the first 1GB drives came out and I thought that there was no way that I could ever need more space. Boy was I wrong. Now I have a couple of 1TB drives and it is going to be exactly the same. I am almost 100% certain that by 2020 computers will come with storage capacities of at least 1PB as standard.

    4. Re:Do they have a crystal ball? by xOneca · · Score: 1

      -thinking useless thoughts
      -thinking about the future

      Aren't that the same?

  18. Depends on size by markdavis · · Score: 1

    Everyone knows that hard drives will continue to get bigger and bigger, and smaller drives will drop off the market and the "entry" price will remain around the same. But if you don't *NEED* such huge drives, then SSDD works just fine. My Netbook can attest to that. Sure- I can't store ALL my music and ALL my video and ALL my pictures, but I don't need to on that type of device. Linux seems to work just fine on SSDD, saves a bit of battery, seems a bit faster overall, and it is impervious to jarring and magnetism, and is smaller and lighter. And that is just 40GB (16 fast, 32 "normal"). I can't imagine that in the next few years that Flash won't continue to get faster, cheaper, and more dense- especially as more and more portable devices create an ever-increasing demand.

  19. Re:Pentagon to use cyborg flies to spy on people. by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2, Funny
    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  20. Futurama by Haxx · · Score: 1

        There has always been and will always be a 22% chance that 90% of the time, 45% of the people will only be correct 62% of the time when attempting to predict the future to 100% accuracy. Henceforth and seemingly only a partially untrue tautology.

    1. Re:Futurama by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which episode? This sounds awfully familiar, but a google search only brings up your post.

  21. Hybrid I/O well before before 2020 by Saeger · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Nobody with a clue has been arguing that SSD's would be cheaper per gigabyte than ye olde spinning-platter HDDs any time soon.

    What we're seeing now, and will see much more of, is the hybrid approach of combining a small-ish (80GB) SSD for the most-accessed OS & Apps, with a monsterously huge and relatively slow (array of) HDDs for bulk data archival and backup.

    With HDD I/O still the single biggest bottleneck today, it makes sense to start transitioning to SSDs, but it doesn't have to be all at once. The premium for SSDs -- ~$2.50/GB SSD vs ~$0.10/GB HDD -- isn't that much, but it will probably pay for most to wait another year not just for prices to fall more, but for all SSDs to finally support TRIM, and have efficient firmware that competes with indilinx and intel's. SATA3 will also be welcome as current SSDs have already hit the SATA2 xfer limit.

    (Oh, and please don't eat the "ZOMG SSDs have limited write-cycles!" FUD. In the vast majority of normal usage patterns, you'll never ever get close to hitting it, and even you did, the failure mode still allows you to READ your data off if you had no backup, as opposed to a HDD crash.)

    --
    Power to the Peaceful
    1. Re:Hybrid I/O well before before 2020 by Shadyman · · Score: 1

      "With HDD I/O still the single biggest bottleneck today"

      I still say it's PEBCAK.. I can't type those 0s and 1s nearly fast enough.

    2. Re:Hybrid I/O well before before 2020 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you cant store a SSD in a safety deposit box like we do with regular drive backups, because the charge fades away in a few years. dealbreaker right there

    3. Re:Hybrid I/O well before before 2020 by sukotto · · Score: 1

      When Linus does it... can his followers be far behind? http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/2008/10/so-i-got-one-of-new-intel-ssds.html I'm looking at doing the same thing for my next machine.

      --
      Come play free flash games on Kongregate!
    4. Re:Hybrid I/O well before before 2020 by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

      I'm sure that decade-long safety deposit box data sequestration is exactly what the average user is looking for.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    5. Re:Hybrid I/O well before before 2020 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you'll never ever get close to hitting it

      Tell that to my customers. Soldering it to the MB seemed like a good idea at the time...

    6. Re:Hybrid I/O well before before 2020 by raddan · · Score: 1

      We built a few server machines with SSDs, but we found that for many applications, they're not quite ready yet. E.g., SSDs seemed like the perfect application for the machines that run our backup jobs off of our SAN. Unfortunately, the heavy emphasis on writing large catalog files made SSDs unacceptably slow as compared with RAID arrays (to the tune of doubling or tripling running time). The SSDs looked good on paper, but it turns out that the actual performance was more complicated than the datasheets let on. For those machines, we moved them back to RAIDs.

      OTOH, we have been using CF cards with single-board computers in certain applications for a very long time, and with these machines, reliability is far more important than disk performance. SATA SSDs are very competitive with CF now, especially since it will ease a number of constraints that CF imposes on us, and so the next round of these machines that I roll out will probably have SSDs instead. We're very much looking forward to replacing disks in workstations with SSDs, but we'll see which thing happens first: virtualization and thin clients or cheap SSDs.

      As for the failure-mode part of SSDs-- I've heard this repeated numerous times, but I've never managed to locate a reference. Do you have one?

    7. Re:Hybrid I/O well before before 2020 by raddan · · Score: 1

      No, but someone might be surprised to discover that the data on their collection of thumb drives is no longer good. I had someone come to me recently because she couldn't read her WordPerfect files from her 3.5" floppies. She was quite surprised when I said that floppies were not a good archival medium.

      Which brings up an important point: what is a good archival medium for typical users? It's not like they're going to rush out and buy tape systems. Compared to an SSD, a floppy disk ain't so bad (aside from capacity).

      Furthermore, Seagate and other MFRs publish the latent error rate for their disks. So far I haven't seen anything like that for SSDs. I doubt that it is zero.

    8. Re:Hybrid I/O well before before 2020 by symbolset · · Score: 1

      I think you're looking for this PDF. Oh, and I found a web page with a long list of links. It's here. Some days it seems like that website has everything.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    9. Re:Hybrid I/O well before before 2020 by mlts · · Score: 1

      That is the issue right there: There is no good archival medium for typical users. Perhaps if you get the CD-Rs touted to have a 100 year lifespan and store those vertically in a climate controlled environment, you might have the best luck, but in reality, your best bet is storing the data in multiple archive formats and on multiple types of media. For example, a tar achive, a zip archive, and a winRAR archive with recovery records, then storing those files on a hard disk, burned to multiple CDs, stored on cloud storage, etc.

      The only medium I know which would have a truly long shelf life would be printing stuff out on acid free paper in black and white. However, something that can come close would be how one of the old IBM mainframes used to store WORM data. It had a roll of unexposed black and white film (same as what is used in cameras). Then, once the roll was "written" to by exposing it, it would be automatically developed, washed, then fixed, and moved to a library for permanent retrival of the bits. This likely could last a long while, assuming a safe environment, and no chemical issues with the plastic that would cause degradation.

    10. Re:Hybrid I/O well before before 2020 by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      When you are spinning a couple hundred TB of disk that is a *LOT* of money

      Which is why file systems like GPFS are so cool, with their policy based allocation to different classes of disk pools, so I can write a policy like to force all my MP3's onto SATA for example like this

      /* force MP3's and the like onto SATA storage forever */
      RULE 'mp3' SET POOL 'sata'
              WHERE LOWER(NAME) LIKE '%.mp3' OR LOWER(NAME) LIKE '%.m4a'

      Or I can migrate files that have not been accessed for a some time of the fast disk onto the slow disk

      /* migrate old files to SATA to keep the FC disks free */
      RULE 'mig' MIGRATE FROM POOL 'system'
              THRESHOLD(90,70) WEIGHT(weighting) TO POOL 'sata'

      where the weighting factor is a marco that depends on last time accessed and file size. I can also reserve specific disks for metadata, and allocate those to the fastest disks for I/O I have.

      I tell you all those ZFS fan boys have not the faintest clue how crap ZFS actually is for an allegedly all singing and dancing modern FS.

  22. Missing the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think that now we hit the TB point getting HDD with more space will be less and less of a concern. How much data does the normal user have and need space for? They will need to start the migration to SSD for speed than storage space. The short term answer for balancing the cost will be a hybrid of the two drives using the HDD for space and the SSD for speed.

  23. But will they record video later? by tepples · · Score: 1

    they don't record video.

    Yet.

    1. Re:But will they record video later? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Eventually, sure. But give it a couple of years and flash drives will be big enough that it won't be an issue. By the time rotating drives are 10TB and flash drives for the same price are 1TB, how many people are going to be producing more than 1TB of data?

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    2. Re:But will they record video later? by coryking · · Score: 1

      Depends on how quickly we move away from broadcast / cable TV and into so-called IPTV. Once people start downloading entire seasons of HDTV content (4gb/hr) a 1TB drive will seem awfully small. Especially if you have people in your house who never like to delete shows when done watching them.

    3. Re:But will they record video later? by tepples · · Score: 1

      Once people start downloading entire seasons of HDTV content (4gb/hr)

      Why download if you can stream?

      Especially if you have people in your house who never like to delete shows when done watching them.

      Satisfy them by transcoding anything they've watched to 864x480. They still have it for reference, just in EDTV.

    4. Re:But will they record video later? by coryking · · Score: 1

      Satisfy them by transcoding anything they've watched to 864x480

      Shhhh!!!! not so loud! you are spoiling my work!

    5. Re:But will they record video later? by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Why download if you can stream?

      Firstly, who offers 1080p video for streaming ?
      Secondly, because streaming is - for several reasons - very unreliable.

  24. huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152102

  25. HDD in 2020 = Tape drives in 1995? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Aren't tape drives still the least expensive per byte backup solution? (Or weren't they at least 10-15 years ago, well into the HDD era?) Just because something has the greatest cost per capacity doesn't mean it will still be the primary technology in use if something else is faster plus adequate in capacity for most purposes.

    1. Re:HDD in 2020 = Tape drives in 1995? by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

      You kids can say all you want about your fancy hard drives with their fast, non-sequential access, but believe me, you can have my 150MB QIC drive and the ISA SCSI card it's attached to when you can pry them from my cold, dead fingers.

      Seriously, though, you bring up an interesting point. I think it works best the other way around, however. Tape still has a huge install base in enterprise computing, if not in home computing, and it's likely HDDs won't leave the datacenter in the foreseeable future either, no matter what SSDs do.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    2. Re:HDD in 2020 = Tape drives in 1995? by symbolset · · Score: 1

      LTO3 Tape costs about the same for just the tapes as cheap SATA drives - without considering the cost of the tape drive ($1200?). I think it's the cheapest per GB today.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    3. Re:HDD in 2020 = Tape drives in 1995? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are three advantages of LTO3 tape over HDDs:

      1: Durability. Drop a tape, check for physical damage, replace on shelf. Drop a HDD, well, you don't know if anything might be retrievable at all.

      2: WORM. Newer DLT drives have functionality called DLT-ICE, where a standard tape can be put into write once mode, and the tape cannot be erased unless physically degaussed. This is definitely important when it comes to archival and standards like HIPAA, SOX, and other laws requiring retention.

      3: A simple switch to ensure the tape is marked read-only in hardware. This sounds basic, but if the box that the tape drive is attached to is compromised and has malware to erase tapes, this can mean the difference between a reinstall and restore, versus major data loss.

      Tapes have advantages over SSDs too:

      1: Long, proven archival life. SSDs have yet to stand the test of time on the order of years to decades. I can grab a DLT IV tape of one of the old RedHat boxes I used to have, and slam it into a drive for it, and I have a very high chance of retrieving the data I have.

      Of course, tapes are not perfect for every task. Modern tape drives require LOTS of sustained I/O, so a consumer class PC will chew up tapes due to "shoe-shining". Instead, one should have a dedicated box that has a lot of disks on it, that just sits there and can do disk to disk to tape backups and not much else.

    4. Re:HDD in 2020 = Tape drives in 1995? by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      Except there is now LTO4 with double capacity at the same price per media.

      The cheapest scalable storage is by far tape. Sure you can by 1TB disks cheaply, but it does not scale. When I need to store 1PB of data the costs of the disks goes up enormously. There is also the cost of the power required to run them. My tapes consume 0W when not being used. I can run a couple of PB of storage with a 1kW of power and as the power consumption is so low there is no requirement for air conditioning (well at least where I live).

      Sticking another frame on my 3854 library and filling it with LTO4 tapes is orders of magnitude cheaper than buying the same amount of disk in a usable form from anyone else.

    5. Re:HDD in 2020 = Tape drives in 1995? by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      I would add that LTO3 and LTO4 have WORM cartridges as well.

      I would also add that DLT-S4 and LTO-4 have adaptive tape speed, so that the speed of the tape is changed to match the incoming data rate to prevent "shoe-shining". Even at enterprise levels keeping the tape drives in my tape library streaming at full speed is difficult. I have six LTO4's in a library, and that requires 720MB/s of throughput to keep them happy. Even 8Gbps FC would struggle to keep up with that.

    6. Re:HDD in 2020 = Tape drives in 1995? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is exactly it. Disk has its uses, but nothing beats the reliability of DLT, LTO, or the other top tier tape formats. The problem is that because hard disks have become so cheap, people have started using a screwdriver like a hammer and using them for backup use (removable HDs in the Iron Mountain tub). To boot, most of the new tape drives out there support AES encryption right on the controller, where you can pass it an encryption key per session or per tape. Now if tapes are stolen, it doesn't mean that the decrypted information comes with them.

      Plus, unlike offerings from the disk companies, when doing a mass archiving of documents, once they are copied to tapes (2+ sets are recommended, preferably three), the tapes can just go into storage and be essentially forgotten about. With arrays of hard disks, to prevent stiction and other woes, said array of archived data has to remain on 24/7 draining power, or be powered up every so often. It is a good idea to periodically read through a tape set for errors, but tapes require zero power once dismounted and put on the shelf.

  26. And? by countertrolling · · Score: 1

    This just means that licensing costs are too high, and we have to wait till the patents run out.

    --
    For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
  27. Tagged Slavegate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder why there won't be any cheap replacements for hard disk drives until 2020? Could it be the fact Slavegate, the one making the claim, has and is actively trying to hinder the progress of all solid state based storage? Personally, I thing Slavegate is doing this as a measure so they can continue to influence their sheep to buy Slavegate HDDs every year to replace a drive that had experienced a head crash.

    "http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/15/1632232"

  28. To each his own. by Erikderzweite · · Score: 1

    HDDs are still much better for data storage -- it's a mature technology which is quite reliable and won't be replaced any time soon.

    However, SSDs are already replacing HDDs on netbooks, notebooks will follow: lower power consumption, less noise, immunity to bumps and shake make SSDs so attractive in that segment.

    SSDs use on desktops is somewhat limited -- they are much better as a system disk because of fast IO times, but most users won't really care about that extra speedup.
    Vendors might offer dual-disk configuration though where the OS is on SSD and user data -- on HDD. But that is rather something for power users, not for Joe the Plummers.

    1. Re:To each his own. by petermgreen · · Score: 3, Interesting

      However, SSDs are already replacing HDDs on netbooks
      Funny i've noticed things the other way round, all the early netbooks were SSD based but now lots of them have moved to a slightly larger form factor accomodating a hard drive.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    2. Re:To each his own. by c.r.o.c.o · · Score: 1

      I ride my motorcycle a lot, and I enjoy taking pictures while on the road. I thought the 4G EeePC would be great, since it was cheap, well built and except a fan, it had no moving parts. But I sold it mainly because of the tiny SSD capacity. Even after tweaking it, and combining the two partitions (2Gb Linux non-writable and 2Gb user partition), I still had at best 3Gb of space. So it was great for quickly checking email and light web browsing, but useless for pretty much anything else. My camera has a 4Gb Compact Flash card, so I couldn't even store the pictures I'd take on a regular trip.

      Manufacturers faced two options. Move to VERY expensive SSDs or cheap HDDs to satisfy consumer demand for large storage capacities. They opted for the second choice, which IMO was a good thing.

      SSDs are still too new and expensive. I've looked into installing one into my new laptop, and the smallest drive I could possibly live with is 128Gb for around $400. The savings in battery life and faster speed simply do not justify the costs for me. And since I don't abuse my laptop (it survived a 5000km motorcycle trip just fine), I also don't need the ruggedness of an SSD.

    3. Re:To each his own. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you also notice the other change in netbooks that correlates with the switch from SSDs to HDDs? That was the early netbooks mostly ran Linux, whilst nowadays they mostly run Windows. Windows (and it's applications) seem to desire more diskspace than Linux does for the most part, so the small capacities of the SSDs were less suited to Windows than Linux, plus Windows didn't tend to perform as well on the cheap SSDs which had slow write times and low IOps, where Linux performed reasonably well.

  29. Look, so do I! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_Coward

  30. not quite by slyn · · Score: 1

    http://www.mattscomputertrends.com/flashdiskcomparo.html

    ^ this guy disagree's, saying the transition will come as early as 2013-2014 (five years from march 2008) for 2.5" drives.

    1. Re:not quite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "disagree's"? What the fuck is the apostrophe there for? Do you really want to say "belonging to disagree"? You might as well have also said five year's and 2.5" drive's.

  31. Damn! Stop all work!!! by coryking · · Score: 3, Funny

    dealbreaker right there

    Holy shit! Anonymous Coward says current generation SSD's might not be able to be used for long-term backup! Clearly this means there is absolutely no use for Solid State Disks whatsoever!

    The game is over gentleman. Time to shut down production and throw in the towel.

    Thanks for saving our ass. Anybody reading this should know that Anonymous Coward is a smart cookie--he was also responsible for warning about the transition from perfectly sound MFM interface to the bloated, evil IDE interface. Whatever advice he gives regarding these untested, unsound Solid State Disks should be wisely heeded.

  32. You won't care by coryking · · Score: 2, Insightful

    but most users won't really care about that extra speedup.

    The hard drive has been a limiting factor in all kinds of things. Why were you taught to "always save your work"? Cause hard drives are slow and it was infeasable to have the application save data in real-time. With an SSD, most applications can probably save your work in real-time. Why does it take so long to boot? Cause the hard drive is slow. With an SSD you can probably afford to quickly dump all of your memory out to "disk" and shut the compute down in hibernate mode--none of this partial-sleep junk.

    Why does it take so long to load a program? Slow disk. Why does my computer lag sometimes? Probably slow disk moving around heads on a spinning platter.

    Why does it take so long to install things? Partially cause the OS has to set up a shadow copy so you can roll back. Why does my OS not have a shadow copy feature yet? Probably cause the designers thought it would be to slow to implement because of your slow-ass disk. Why does it take so long to search my filesystem or index it? Slow-ass disk.

    You think that extra speedup won't be cared about? Seriously? The fact we've delt with such a slow means of long-term storage has held us back for a long time. Remove the silly constraints forced by stupid mechanical devices and suddenly we can do a lot of creative, useful things that were not possible before. Surely even you can see that, right?

    Or am I forgetting this is slashdot home of the tech-Luddite and dog gon'nit a command-line and a green screen is good enough for me and should be good enough for anybody!

    1. Re:You won't care by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why were you taught to "always save your work"? Cause hard drives are slow and it was infeasable to have the application save data in real-time. With an SSD, most applications can probably save your work in real-time.

      Oh dear god no. So whenever I make a mistake, it's instantly made permanent - that's a terrible idea. I'm not the Pope, I'm fallible damn it.

      The simple two-version model of having the document being worked on in RAM, and letting the user save it to disk whenever he/she feels that it's in a good state, works fine for most purposes. When that's not sufficient, there are version control systems like SVN, which store many versions, with the costs of complexity for the user and a bit more disk space required. But you want to go the other direction and have just one version? Have you ever actually done anything important on your computer?

      Besides, technologically speaking, automatic saving is worse on a flash SSD than a traditional magnetic HDD. Limited number of write cycles. One save for every change made will run through them pretty fast.

      Why does it take so long to search my filesystem or index it?

      That's your punishment for not giving your files a sensible layout. I seldom have to actually search for a file on my own computer.

    2. Re:You won't care by coryking · · Score: 1

      So whenever I make a mistake, it's instantly made permanent - that's a terrible idea.

      Or you can stop being so damn dense and think for a second. You'd be saving all the history too. You'd be able to undo any change you made just like you do now.

      Limited number of write cycles.

      Yeah. True in the last generation and maybe true in this one but I doubt it will be nearly as true in future generations.

      That's your punishment for not giving your files a sensible layout

      Why the hell should I? I bought the damn computer to worry about organizing and searching my files so I dont have to! I gave up the whole "organize my music collection by hand" years ago when iTunes or Windows Media Player started doing it for me and it is about damn time I stop having to hand-organize the rest of my shit too.

      If anything, if your OS can't help you find your files easily, something is wrong with your OS. That is the job of the OS, not you.

    3. Re:You won't care by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      The current limiting factor of HARD DRIVES is platter/sector/head feature. SSDs have no such limit. Imagine a File System that recognizes a new additional drive space and just configures it for you, automatically, as a single contiguous unit.

      UNIX style Partitioning where everything is a single logical unit makes much more sense than the whole Windows C: D: E: drive paradigm.

      This is going to be a huge Paradigm shift in how we think about "drives", and storage. In fact, I would suspect that the fist "computer" which will take advantage of such a thing will be Apple Macintosh.

      This might require a whole new form factor or perhaps drive cage technology. And when it happens, people will buy the storage space they need, for the price they want, and when they need more, they just buy more.

      And My prediction is that by 2013-15 you'll start seeing the last of the Hard Drives, and the end of Seagate, maybe sooner.

      If the Linuxheads were smart, they'd start planning for this eventuality now, and start making it EASY to add Storage (we're not gonna call them drives much longer either).

      The end of spinning platters is coming, and anyone banking on them is going to be on the short end.

      And this is why I STILL don't have a BlueRay player. I'm waiting for the thing after BlueRay, some sort of Memory Card Movie player. I'm just wondering what is taking them so long.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
  33. Oh really? Could've fooled me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh really? You can buy netbooks with SSD storage for under $200 now; last-gen netbooks are available for around $100. They have SSD. That is damn cheap.

    No, we're not talking about 2Tb of storage at that price point. But most people, many geeks included, do not need or use that much storage. Most people have, at most, a gig or two of storage they want to preserve - and that's on the high end. Personally, I've been saving data for close to 15 years now (including quite a few ripped DVDs and CDs, audio and data ISOs), and 150G is still enough for me to create a complete backup.

    SSDs of 8 or 16Gb are quite common now, and more than enough storage for most people's needs - including OS and applications. You can get a 16G OCZ SSD for $50 or so. I -think- that's about a third to a fourth less than they cost as little as a year ago.

    No, those SSDs aren't cheaper per gig than a HDD, but they are more than enough capacity for most folks. I know several geeks who have gone all-SSD in their desktops and laptops, and only keep rotational media around for backup.

    In other news, the promised high-density hard drives - the ones which were supposed to surpass tape density and be cheaper per megabyte - still are not here yet. Surprise!

  34. Comcast killed the hard disk. by 7-Vodka · · Score: 1

    Hard disks will probably be the storage of choice for people with large data storage needs. However since bandwidth to the home is increasing at a SNAILS pace, most people won't have the need for so much storage and will buy the equivalently priced but faster, lower power, silent and reliable solid state stuff.

    Had the situation been different and bandwidth to the home been going through the same improvement rate as HD storage, the result might have been different. But in 1997 I had a comcast connection at 5Mbit down / 2Mbit up speeds for roughly the same price as I now have a 10Mbit down / 5Mbit up. In 1997 I also bought something like a 3Gig hard drive for a comparable price to the 2TB hard drive I bought last week.

    Hard disk storage has improved by 600+ fold. Pipes to fill the hard disk have improved by 2 fold.

    And don't forget that if you actually USE your bandwidth, many ISPs will hassle you or cut you off.

    --

    Liberty.

    1. Re:Comcast killed the hard disk. by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Not to detract unnecessarily from your point, but where were you living that a 5 down/2 up connection was available for $50-60/mo in 1997? Because at that point, living in an apartment complex with geeks in the next 2 units, we were all splitting a 56k connection.

    2. Re:Comcast killed the hard disk. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must have been very lucky to be among the first cable modem trial users in 1997. However, there were probably only a few thousand people in the country to get that kind of bandwidth. Most people were still lucky if their ISP could give you 56k.

      Regardless, Comcast isn't going to kill the hard disk -- that DVR that Comcast supplies won't be coming with an SSD for many years to come. Even if you're not filling up your DVR's disk now, just wait until you get more tuners, more high-def, and more people in the house all recording to the same disk. I don't know about the Internet pipe, but Comcast is streaming a couple new high-def movies to my DVR every day on HBO and Showtime. It could be decades before anything besides a hard disk is cheap enough to hold them all.

      dom

  35. Newer is not necessarily better by kheldan · · Score: 1

    Am I the only one who thought "Well Duh!" when they read this? Just because something is newer doesn't make it better, and it certainly doesn't make it cheaper either! In fact I'm still using paper tape for most of my data-storage needs. Granted, I need about 7-10 days prior notice before booting my copy of Windows XP from paper tape, but I only reboot about once a year anyway so it's not that big a deal.

    --
    Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
  36. Yes, well by ucblockhead · · Score: 1

    Hard drives never beat magnetic tape in dollars per megabyte. I guess that's why we still all use tape drives.

    --
    The cake is a pie
    1. Re:Yes, well by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 1

      Hard drives never beat magnetic tape in dollars per megabyte. I guess that's why we still all use tape drives.

      You win!

      You said what everybody else said but faster, more directly and with ample smirk value. My short attention span thanks you.

      -FL

  37. Why haven't we developed a fiber optic hard drive? by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

    Use DVD RW technology with more advanced lasers and more advanced media. I am sure that a fiber optic hard drive that uses rewritable media can be made cheaper than a solid state hard drive. Just use multiple platters like real hard drives and use lasers instead of magnetic read/write heads.

    Right now I have USB kits for ATA IDE hard drives to be used as external hard drives for my backups and sometimes I use DVD-R or CD-R disks for backup. I am sure that a multi-platter fiber optic hard drive would at least make a great backup device.

    I also use cheap SD cards and USB flash drives for backup of smaller documents. Mostly pictures that need to be developed in JPG format for photo developers.

    --
    Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
  38. video resolution? by alizard · · Score: 1

    I'm not that interested in Blu-Ray movies, but I've got 200G on my HD... as in a dozen DVD+R backup disks. I'm buying a Blu-Ray burner for disk archives ASAP and looking forward to TVDs.

    1. Re:video resolution? by maxume · · Score: 1

      Parent is implying that casual users will have tens of terabytes of data; for most people, very high resolution video is the most likely path to such a silly situation.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    2. Re:video resolution? by LordVader717 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Now this is a situation which is best left to hard drives. Blu-Ray discs have only a small multiple of space than DVDs. They're currently much more expensive than DVDs, and both a far behind the 5 cents/GB you get for hard drives these days.
      Then you have the added inconvenience of fiddling around with 40 discs vs. one single TB hard drive. If you want to be careful, you should also regularly check your backups for integrity, which is much easier for a single SATA hard drive.

    3. Re:video resolution? by hazydave · · Score: 1

      Well, a couple of things here.

      Sure, Blu-Ray is more expensive than DVD, and if you needed to be 10,000 DVDs versus 2,000 BDs, and either would do, sure, go for the DVDs. But below a certain point, the price isn't germaine.

      DVDs offer about 40GB/dollar, while with BDs, it's more like 10GB/dollar (in small cakeboxes, BD-R 25s cost about $2.50 right now.. I suspect some of you haven't really been paying attention). The cheapest external large drive I could find on NewEgg last week (1GB) ran me 11GB/dollar. I am writing of prices I actually pay... obviously, if you buy HDDs in bulk, you're getting a better price. Then again, they're not likely paying even $0.50 a disc for the glass mastered BD50s you find in most Blu-Ray retail boxes.

      Anyone with a source for HDDs of a modern size (eg, not firesale 100GB models that pretty much can't be sold) for $0.05/GB, quantity one, send me a link.

      --
      -Dave Haynie
  39. Seagate vs solid state chip companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You missed one very important point. Anyone so closely connected to Seagate as a former CTO of Seagate, is very likely to still have connections with that company and that part of the industry. Seagate and other hard drive companies don't want solid state to dominate, as their business is in conventional hard drives. Now we have solid state drives that means the chip manufacturers are now direct competitors with hard drive companies, which means a lot more competitors for hard drive companies.

    So any press release has to be considered very suspect at best. Seagate and other hard drive companies would totally loose out if solid state dominates the market so they are never going to admit they are in trouble or that they are in danger of becoming obsolite. No company would admit that.

  40. Cheapest on initial purchase != cheapest overall by Trerro · · Score: 1

    SSDs have a much longer lifespan, which means that they don't have to become cheaper than traditional drives, they just have to be cheap enough that when factoring in their lifespan, their extra cost is more than justified.

    Also, because SSDs don't rely on moving parts, the fact that you can't lose one because your laptop took a bump on a subway or you tripped over your tower is another selling point - not only in terms of lower the odds of needing to replace the drive early (and therefore the cost you're paying per drive), but because if what you're storing on the drive is far more valuable than the device itself, you are very much willing to pay extra to lower the chances of a dead drive. Even if you make daily backups, losing say... a day's worth of freelance work is going to cost you a lot more than the cost of the drive.

    With that in mind, I'd say even at double to triple the cost, they're worth it. Right now it's more like 10x, but but getting it down to 3x won't take more than a few years, even if getting it equal IS more of a 2020 thing - although I seriously question that number too. 6 years ago I bought a 1gb flash drive for something like $150. 1 year ago I bought a 16gb one for 30 bucks. If 5 years was enough to drop the cost per gigabyte 80-fold, and it's at a 10x multiplier now, I don't think it's going to be long at all before it gets equal, or damn close... and again, damn close is more than good enough with their much longer lifespan.

  41. Blame it on Adobe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Flash won't continue to get faster, cheaper, and more dense- especially as more and more portable devices create an ever-increasing demand.

    Indeed, slow Flash is what's holding back Linux on the desktop.

  42. Ignoring history again by LootBag · · Score: 1

    Sounds like somebody neglected to read The Innovator's Dilemma. Flash drives do not need to become cheaper than hard drives, they simply need to represent enough value for a demographic who are willing to pay a premium for them. This is already happening. There are many systems that do not need more storage space, but do require "lower power consumption, faster read access time, and better mechanical reliability". Builders of these kinds of systems will adopt the newer technology, won't care about the storage advantage of hard drives (it has no value for them), and will willingly pay the price premium for the desired features. Anyone care to estimate the cost of a service call on a failed drive? When you factor in the labour (not just the cost to send somebody, but also the cost of having them not available to do something else), the cost of an upset customer (taking up time calling in to complain, having endless meetings about what went wrong, etc), the damage to your reputation (a tough thing to measure, but potentially very expensive), and so forth, the actual price of the drive itself is not a significant part of the equation. Solid state devices have always tended to have a reliability advantage over anything with moving parts, and people will pay a premium for reliability, especially where said reliability will reduce costs overall. Hard drives also consume a lot of power, and in many cases aren't actually doing anything but sitting there spinning, since everything is happening in RAM. There are many PCs and servers out there that barely use their hard drive. It loads the relevant app into RAM, and it's job is done. Still, there it sits, spinning away, generating heat (that needs to be cooled), and eating power to no purpose. As the cost of electricity continues to climb, the long term costs of this may in fact prove the flash drive to be cheaper overall, despite the initial price difference. Ignoring flash altogether, there are a whole host of new storage technologies being explored that will produce neither flash drives nor hard drives. While prognostication is always dangerous, it seems not too much of a stretch to imagine that some of these will become reality in the next decade, rendering both hard drives and flash drives obsolete. Reading that article, I am left with the impression that those researchers give a strong impression of having their heads in the silicon . . . er . . . sand.

  43. in other news... by MrKaos · · Score: 1

    the 'Monkeys fly out of one's ass' association predicts that Monkeys flying out of one's ass will be the leading cause of Monkeys flying out of one's ass for the foreseeable future.

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  44. FUD by FatherDale · · Score: 1

    Yeah, it won't happen. Neither will non-Windows computers. Or 6 hour batteries. That's science fiction. --written from a 2.2 lb netbook running Ubuntu 9.10 on a 20gb SSD. --who pays people to write that crap?

  45. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  46. Where are you getting these numbers? by westlake · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    It isn't, though, unless you really expect to use all of that 1 TB capacity. The average computer user uses maybe 1-200 gigs.

    The pocket camcorder that sells for less than $200 generates 8 GB of 720p video in less than two hours.

    Is it really that difficult to fill a 1 TB hard drive?

    1. Re:Where are you getting these numbers? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      The cell phone camera that your average person (sadly) uses for video generates about eight megabytes of video in less than two hours.... :-D Okay, I'm purposefully exaggerating for comic effect here, but you get my point....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  47. Multistate flash has been three yrs away for 15 yr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Solid state does not keep up with Moore's Law. Magnetics are still passing it by. That won't stop SSD's penetrating markets from the bottom. Seagate really has to assume that they will stall out well before 2020 for SSD to catch up. Personally I would be surprised to see magnetics stall out before solid state.

  48. 40 years of work isn't really a breakthrough... by dlenmn · · Score: 4, Informative

    I wouldn't exactly call PCRAM a breakthrough -- people have been working on it since the 1960s. There are a host of new non-volatile memory technologies that claim to be read for prime time Real Soon Now. Just look at the list of upcoming non-volatile memory technologies in the right column at the wikipedia article. You can't go out and buy most of them yet, but any of them could be winners (besides PCRAM, MRAM is available from Everspin/freescale -- you can buy some on DigiKey if you want).

    I wouldn't hold my breath for any of these to replace hard drives, they've been a long time in coming and they're still not really here yet. Hopefully by 2020.

  49. They are way underestimating. by Jogar+the+Barbarian · · Score: 1

    I don't know where they're getting their numbers, but based on data I've been collecting for the past 5 years, theirs are way off. A 14 TB drive for $40 in 2020? My data says by 2020, $40 will buy you 342 TB.

    --
    3. Profit!
    2. ???
    1. On Soviet Slashdot, a Beowulf cluster of alien Natalie Portman overlords welcomes YOU!
  50. TCO of SSDs is already cheaper than HDDs by Software+Geek · · Score: 1

    The total cost of ownership of a storage device includes the purchase price, the cost of restoring/reinstalling after catastrophic drive failures, and the ongoing cost of electricity.

    For a home user, the reinstall cost from a single catastrophic failure is going to outweight both the purchase price and the electricity cost. SSDs have a significantly lower catastrophic failure rate, so they cost less.

    For a server, the electricity cost is going to outweigh the purchase price and the reinstall cost. SSDs use less electricity, so they cost less.

  51. slightly misdleading lead... by twoHats · · Score: 1

    Yes of course, if we are speaking of cheapest. That doesn't mean there won't be faster and better available...I mean, right now portable storage is less that USD0.10/Gig - and dropping daily it seems. Anyway, not so simple a proposition as nothing new until 2020.

  52. I don't want 20 TB by caywen · · Score: 1

    Are they taking into account speed increases? Maybe customers won't want a 20TB HD that runs 10% faster than today's HD. Maybe they'll want a 1TB solid state drive that runs 500% faster. I'll certainly trade 500GB for a 100% speed boost today.

    I have a feeling that there are no big speed breakthroughs left in spinning magnetic media, but there are huge opportunities still waiting in solid state.

  53. I don't believe it for a minute by bratwiz · · Score: 1

    I don't believe that. I think there will be a threshold effect driven by consumer demand. When the price threshold is reached that ordinary consumers will dig into their wallets, I think the pressure will be on solid-state drive makers to get the product out there and at the price the market demands. This is the kind of bogus/fud story that mfgrs float every once in awhile when they're feeling a little inadequate or under-prepared.

  54. Cheapest? Who cares? by Arancaytar · · Score: 1

    In a wide range of applications, solid-state already replaced rotating drives.

    They may have a higher cost per capacity, but where speed, damage resistance and energy consumption is more important than bulk, SSD beats HDD any day.

    My next laptop will have a 16GB flash drive, as opposed to the 160GB the old one has.

  55. Exclude PCs with Intel GMA by tepples · · Score: 1

    Even without the hemorrhaging of losses due to piracy, consoles are far more lucrative to game developers than PCs.

    Unlike PC development, console development typically isn't royalty-free or even under reasonable and non-discriminatory terms. What should a developer do before it can get a console license?

    In general, a console owner buys 10 to 100 times as many games for their device as a PC sees.

    Does this still hold even if you exclude PCs with only an Intel GMA from the equation?

  56. In spite of his market knowlege by Genda · · Score: 1

    I don't belive this prediction is going to be correct. The market will always be impacted unpredictably by breakthrough technologies. Already flash drives are making inroads into the market place, and I'm guessing there are start-ups out there at this very moment which will turn the market on its head in the near future. Remember the famous words of the Chairman of IBM, Thomas Watson, who in 1943 said "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.”

    1. Re:In spite of his market knowlege by maugle · · Score: 1

      Except that, back in 1943, there was a world market for maybe 5 computers.

  57. Look at small hard drives by grimJester · · Score: 1

    Flash is around $1.87 per GB while Hard drives are closer to 7c per GB.

    That's 26 times the price. Sure SSDs are getting cheaper every day but so are hard drives.

    If you look at 64-80G drives rather than the 1-1.5T sweet spot for HD prices, the SSDs are around 3-5 times the price. USB sticks are cheaper than any hard drive when you get down to 8-16G.

    Very soon, SSDs will be cheap enough that your choice is between a 100G SSD and a 1T HD at the same price. Unless you really need the space and using separate system and data drives would be too expensive, your computer will have an SSD. I'm fairly certain this is what we'll start seeing; every computer has an SSD with 64-128G space and those who need it add a 1T+ HD for videos and mp3s.

  58. Zooms in post-production by tepples · · Score: 1

    Beyond a certain point, high resolution is most useful for cropping and zooming in post-production.

    "beyond a certain point, high resolution is most useful for something really really useful, therefore is completely useless"

    A quad-720p (2560x1440px) camcorder is useful, but it's a niche that will probably be relegated to high-end equipment because most Internet streaming video is still 480p, or 720p at maximum. As I understand it, most end users don't do digital zooms in post-production, even when shooting in HDTV for an SDTV end product. I did one of my YouTube videos with some long continuous zooms that I composed using AviSynth and a Python program that I wrote. But from the "who was the cameraman?" questions I was asked, and the reaction to my answer ("it was on a tripod, and I zoomed in during editing"), the kind of zoom in post that you see in "Caught On Tape" reality shows and TV news isn't commonplace among amateur videographers. (Yet.)

  59. Video on demand by tepples · · Score: 1

    who offers 1080p video for streaming ?

    Who offers 1080p video for lawful download?

    streaming is - for several reasons - very unreliable

    Then how do cable TV companies stream video on demand to end users' set-top boxes? Look at Disney's Keychest proposal: eventually major label video will be available through what could be described as video on demand on steroids.

  60. /cheaper/, not "better" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you still have to conceive of a way to produce it in mass quantities to drive the price below that of established spinning disks.

    Nope! Roast beef costs more than bologna, yet people chose to buy it every day. SSD drives don't need to be cheaper because they are better - silent, far less prone to shock damage, and ohhh so much faster.

    Except neither the study, nor the GP, is talk about "better". Both are talking about cheaper.

    And if you have the right technology you can have both cheaper and "better":

    http://blogs.sun.com/brendan/entry/hybrid_storage_pool_top_speeds

  61. How better than Blu-ray? by tepples · · Score: 1

    Current digital cinema theather versions of films take around 200 gigs and their resolution is only 2048x1080

    What makes them better than Blu-ray Disc, which is 1920x1080 on a 50 GB medium?

    It all depends if there becomes reasonable 2k home projectors available.

    There are already 2K TVs; they're just called "1080p". Google found me plenty of results for 1080p projector.

    1. Re:How better than Blu-ray? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Datawise less compression, better bitdepth i believe.

      The DCI XYZ colorspace projectors can show colors that you can't produce on other screening devices (analog film a side maybe). They can make pretty decent projectors now to replace 35mm ones, they should be able to bring to the market pretty ok ones that can fill much smaller homescreen. The current 1080p projectors are not quite as good yet and the DCI stuff costs way too much for home use.

      Blueray is probably pretty ok for long time to come, but I wouldn't mind getting better format in the future when filesize is not the problem. If uncompressed film is around 1.2 TB, blueray is still 1:24 compression (you can see it. That's why they dont project blurays at cinema). I also like CDs even though mp3s are pretty ok and prolly can't hear the difference.

      I guess what I was trying to say is that, if future brings me more diskspace I sure think we can fill it.

  62. It used to be... by AaronPSU777 · · Score: 1

    that flash memory was so expensive it was only viable for applications where you only needed a little bit of storage, like storing your contacts list in a cellphone. Then it got to the point where it took over as the standard storage media for digital cameras and mp3 players, remember the microdrive? it's gone now, and hard drive based mp3 players are the exception not the rule these days. Now flash is beginning to move into the consumer pc space. This was first seen in cheap netbooks with 4-16gb ssds, but increasingly they are popping up as a high end option as well. It's pretty clear that rotating media is on the way out. I don't doubt that it will maintain it's cost/gigabyte advantage but it will likely be relegated to a role as low speed, infrequently accessed storage while ssds take over as the primary drive in laptops first and then desktops. It's possible a tipping point could be reached both as the performance delta between rotating and solid state media increases and as software companies beginning writing programs to take advantage of ssds until eventually the performance of rotating media is so abysmal they are no longer used and software companied forget about them entirely. It's important to note too that while rotating media has a cost/gigabyte advantage it cannot go below a certain price floor due to the inherent and unchanging costs involved in manufacturing a precision mechanical device. For example the cheapest you can get a new 2.5" hdd these days is about 50 bucks, however even if a manufacturer were to make, say an 8 mb hdd it probably still wouldn't be much cheaper than that just due to the costs in making a magnetic disk, precision enclosure, bearings, etc. However ssds can easily go below this price. What this means is that ssds could potentially take over the low end of the pc market by offering cheap low capacity drives that hdd manufacturers are simply incapable of matching in price. To better illustrate this lets look at the 64 Gb ssd, which is retailing for as little $150. As a quick back of the envelope calculation let's say that the cost/gigabyte of flash memory drops by half every 18 months, and working from that number lets say the cost of our ssd drops by 40% every 18 months. In 3 years then a 64 Gb ssd will be selling for around $50, the same price as the cheapest hdd available. In 3 years of course that low end hdd could very well be 500 gigabytes. But there are plenty of users who would likely take the ssd for its performance advantage, and once the cost goes below $50 it will suddenly be the cheapest option available. Keep in mind too that a 64 Gb ssd is perfectly capable of running Windows 7 with plenty of programs installed and some usable storage left over as well. It's perfectly viable for a lot of users and would provide much better performance than any other option.

  63. 7 years too late by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who cares what hard drive technology will look like beyond 2012?

  64. I tend to agree by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    I tend to agree, as I was looking at blueray dvds for backups, and saw that a 50gb dvd would cost me about 5$ to buy, what is the use, might as well just keep buying cheap hdd. The price of the new technology has to come way down before all this is affordable replacement, and blueray has been in the works (trying to come down in price) for about 6 years now....and it's still not here.

  65. Wii SSD is 512 MB by tepples · · Score: 1

    Oh, I'm sorry, is 256MB good enough for a gaming console

    It's enough for the DSi, and twice that is enough for a Wii. Wii has the equivalent of a 512 MB xD-Picture card on its mainboard.

    mobile phone

    It is for phones on the pay-as-you-go networks (e.g. TracFone, Virgin, Net10) that don't have an MP3 player in them.

  66. 10,000 5 1/4 inch by Cur8or · · Score: 0

    10,000 floppies might be cheaper, but not better. By next dive is a SSD.

    --
    Winkey shortcut mapping for 64bit windows. WinKeyPlus