Slashdot Mirror

Go play with Python on...

http://ideone.com/

"Ideone is something more than a pastebin; it's an online compiler and debugging tool which allows
to compile and run code online in more than 40 programming languages."

Have a book...
http://www.swaroopch.com/notes/Python

Have two...
http://www.greenteapress.com/thinkpython/thinkpython.html

Have a link to the Python Learning Foundation site...
http://www.awaretek.com/plf.html

HTC makes perfect hardware, but the software it runs sucks big time. Yes, I talk about Windows Mobile. I am an owner of an HTC Universal, also known as Qtek 9000, which looks like a small laptop. The first problem I had with the device was that although the TFT screen is capable of displaying 640x480 resolution, Windows Mobile limit the output to 320x240, making the device unsuitable for the original reason I bought it (Slashdot, eh..., Internet surfing over 3G cellular networks, later also Python hacking and SSHing while on the road). Thanks to a little Russian hack, OzVga, I have an easy interface to switch between 640x480 and 320x240 anytime I want (ie never, as I only use 640x480). I really can't understand why MS stupidly sets 320x240 as th default resolution, without offering any interface to change it except through the registry. Windows Mobile crash very frequently, are very slow (even on Universal's 520MHz ARM CPU), have the most user-unfriendly and stupid interface I have ever seen since Spectrum's keyboard, and makes my life as a user very difficult. There is a project to port Linux on Universal but it is still in its infancy. I would really describe HTC's Universal as a device combining the perfect hardware with the most unusable software you could ever imagine. HTC really destroys its reputation by cooperating with MS. I am sure HTC could exponentially increase its sales by loading a non-MS OS, preferably open-source like Linux, on all its new PDAs. The best thing HTC can do is to open its hardware platform documentation and let Linux hackers create a Linux port on Universal or future similar device, then sponsor the effort and make Linux the default OS.

It really looks like a Flybook subnotebook, which is about the same size and has the same 1024x600 resolution. I own two of them. The good thing about Flybook is that it can connect to the Internet through cellular networks supporting GPRS (53 kbps), UMTS (384 kbps), and HSDPA (1.8 to 3.6 mbps) and that it runs on a x86 processor (Transmeta or Pentium M). The bad thing is that its standard battery has just 1-2 hour autonomy depending how you use it (but the extended battery has much more, from 3 to 4 hours depending on use) and it lacks an integrated DVD drive. I would like to point out that Flybook is designed to be usable while you walk, as the pointing device is located at the top right position (unfortunately there is no left-hand version!). I notice that this Palm Foleo machine has its pointing device on the centre, which would make it difficult to use it while walking. Palm's claimed battery life is 5 hours, which is too low for an ARM-based machine (my HTC Universal with the extended battery has 22 hours autonomy, and I'm able to connect to the Internet through cellular GPRS and UMTS networks from it, connect to my servers via SSH, code in Python, and browse Slashdot at 640x480 thanks to OzVGA. Actually I would say that HTC Universal would be completely perfect if it had more memory, wasn't based on Winblows, and could connect via HSDPA just like Nokia's E90 does). I also notice that the Palm Foleo's keyboard seems very well designed, while I can't say the same about Flybook's keyboard (try coding in C or another language with lots of brackets, or use any application requiring heavy use of PgUp and PgDown keys on a Flybook keyboard while standing up and you'll understand). There are many interesting mobile devices out there (see HTC's new toy or Sharp's Zaurus) and only time will tell whether Palm's new machine will be a hit in the mobile warriors's market. It's interesting to note that as x86 subnotebooks become smaller and ARM machines larger there are less and less differences between them, to the point where we may have difficulty distinguishing them at first glance.

If you 'invest' in a book, make sure that it covers at least python 2.2 ... You don't want a 1.6x book which will leave you in the dark about new style classes, scoping rules etc. (ie. if you get the O'Reilly Learning Python book, make sure it is 2nd Ed.)

Having said that I'm going to totally contradict myself by pointing you in the direction of Instant Python. (Actually I'm warning you that this is out of date, it's just such a quick hand up that it's still worth a look at.) More generally a list of on-line python tutorials can be found here.

Both TurboGears and Django are excellent. Furthermore, each has strengths for different kinds of projects, with TurboGears at its best for web applications and Django for big, industrial strength web content sites. Twisted and Zope are great too, but for most developers, Django or TurboGears is going to suit them best. Both are under rapid, well coordinated development and are proven solutions that will scale well over time. TurboGears' best of breed component approach is, in my opinion, a winning strategy, especially in the Python community since Python is blessed with so many great projects (some people think too many projects), giving a plethora of high quality, well maintained and best of breed components for TurboGears to choose amongst. There are multiple good tutorials on both frameworks here, http://www.awaretek.com/plf.html , as well as related podcast material about TurboGears and related Python material.

Oh, in that case,

I wish that for just one day
I could walk inside your shoes
Then I could see what a drag it is
To be you...
http://www.awaretek.com/

That's totally cool... I totally appreciate your lack of beligerance towards me despite my self serving tendencies.

Please pardon my regression into late 50's early 60's jargon..since I wrote that review of Rob Walch's book about the podcasting phenomenon, I have learned that it is a fact that Bob Dylan will release his latest album (first in almost five years---the last was released on September 11, 2001) and, for the first time I can personally recall, he has also released the name of the album in advance. It will be called Modern Times. That's ironic given Dylan's 5 decade long journey into the past prior to this release.

I'm happy.

...and just a little bit scared...

Ron Stephens http://www.awaretek.com/podcasts/index.html

is this serendipitously synchronistic, or what?

Hey hyfe, Well, I tired anyway ;-))) Ron http://www.awaretek.com/ the technology of beign human...one voice crying the wilderness... i don't feel like a politician...

There is a lot of difference between the spoken word and the printed word. Each has its good points, but they are different. I never understood this until I began podcasting and listening to podcasts.

Sometimes it helps to read about a subject, and then hear about it, to go back and forth. Universitiy professors have understood this for hundreds of years.

Counter-intuitively, it works extremely well for learning programming concepts. Read about the concepts, use the concepts, listen to a lecture about them, then read some more, then do, then read-listen do, read listen do.

It works. The human mind is not a static, works-best-only-one-way device. Maybe Marshual Macluhan was on to something after all.

Python411 learn Python, a podcast series

Hello to all. Interestingly enough I just installed TurboGears for the first time this weekend. To test how versatile it is, I installed it three times: on my main Mac OS X box, on a Windows laptop and on an old Linux box.

All three installs went flawlessly and I was up and running in less than half an hour. I must say that the installation of TurboGears is as smooth as I have ever seen, and the documentation is superb.

I went ahead and made a podcast recording my initial experiences, and I will continue to podcast about TurboGears as I go forward, as part of my Python411 podcast series that can be found here: http://www.awaretek.com/python/index.html or subscribed to here: http://www.awaretek.com/python/index.xml

Ron Stephens

Hello to all. Interestingly enough I just installed TurboGears for the first time this weekend. To test how versatile it is, I installed it three times: on my main Mac OS X box, on a Windows laptop and on an old Linux box.

All three installs went flawlessly and I was up and running in less than half an hour. I must say that the installation of TurboGears is as smooth as I have ever seen, and the documentation is superb.

I went ahead and made a podcast recording my initial experiences, and I will continue to podcast about TurboGears as I go forward, as part of my Python411 podcast series that can be found here: http://www.awaretek.com/python/index.html or subscribed to here: http://www.awaretek.com/python/index.xml

Ron Stephens

Python is the perfect first language for learning to program. It has a fast learning curve, teaches good programming practises, introduces powerful programming principles quickly and easily, and is fun for the students, allowing them to do real things, including graphics, games, web programming etc. Ron Stephens Python Learning Foundation

Kevin wrote:
Syntax (bad): Lack of a requirement to declare vars before use. I really would like the ability to require that all vars are explicitly declared before being assigned to. it would help coding reliability.

Actually, Guido von Rossum (the Creator of Python) is working on optional declaration of variables for a future version of Python. Although some Pythonistas are annoyed, it may give folks like you, Kevin, the best of both worlds. There is discussion on comp.lang.python about this from time to time, but it certainly appears as though Guido may take action soon;-))).

Ron Stephens
Python Learning Foundation
http://www.awaretek.com/plf.html

Actually, I, Ursus Maximus, the reviewer of the above book in question, *have* reviewed several "bad" books amongst the 35 or so book reviews on my web site ( I only tend to sumbit reviews of the best books to Slashdot, perhaps due to lack of the bashing instinct, perhaps out of my desire to share good books with others. But all of my book reviews, including 27 or so Python books, are available at www.awaretek.com/plf.html and are rated from one star to five stars...and I don't pull any punches on the ones I don't like. So, if you like negativity, go to my website. If you want to buy a good book, buy Text Processing in Python ;-)))

Now, what I want to know is - is that good or bad?

Also, there is no value checking on input for the program. Ugh.

The instructions say from 1-10, but a user can input 0, 11, or "a".

....Python: a*10 + b*10 + c*-10 + d*7 + e*6 + f*10 + g*10 + h*7
......Perl: a*6 + b*7 + c*-10 + d*10 + e*10 + f*10 + g*1 + h*2
......Ruby: a*5 + b*8 + c*-10 + d*6 + e*1 + f*10 + g*7 + h*10
JavaScript: a*9 + b*9 + c*10 + d*-10 + e*10 + f*1 + g*6 + h*6

where a = ease of learning, b = ease of use, c = client-side Web scripting, d = server-side Web scripting, e = popularity and installed base, f = graphics, g = readability, h = object model.

Or presented another way:

learnability: Python=10, JS=9, Perl=6, Ruby=5.
usability: Python=10, JS=9, Ruby=8, Perl=7.
client-side scripting: JS=10, all others=-10.
server-side scripting: Perl=10, Python=7, Ruby=6, JS=-10.
popularity: Perl=10, JS=10, Python=6, Ruby=1.
graphics: JS=1, all others=10.
readability: Python=10, Ruby=7, JS=6, Perl=1.
object model: Ruby=10, Python=7, JS=6, Perl=2.

Now I'm not sure I'd agree with all of these ratings (e.g. Python 10 times more readable than Perl? Seems pretty harsh...), but they're interesting to look at. They seem pretty off-the-cuff to me. Perhaps they say as much about the opinions of the Web site author as they do about the languages.

Recently, due to changes in the Python license, RMS Himself Certified that the Python license is now fully GPL Compatible, thus putting an end to this digression. Python has ALWAYS been open source and free software, now no one can ever again use this canard against this beautiful piece of work that is an ongoing arttistic and technological evolutionary miracle ;-))) Learn Python at Python City

PHP is a fine tool for web automation, an excellent tool. Python, on the other hand, is a general purpose language that can be used for anything (including web automation ;-))) Python stands alone. I also find it easier to learn than PHP; and oh, so much more powerful Learn Python at Python City

You (an Anonynmous Coward) wrote: (1) Python's dynamic typing is a major show stopper for writing *huge* programs. (Well, Ursus Maximuus finds that dynamic typing is the wave of the future. It speeds up the writing of code by a factor of 10. Anyway, Zope is a HUGE project, entirely written in Python using of course, dynamic typing, and it doesn't seem to have suffered. (2) Python is very slow compared to the fastest compiled languages. (Well, true as far as it goes. But with processor speed going up continually, Python is fast enough you won't notice hardly ever. If you do notice, there are easy fixes (embed a C routine for perfomrance sensitive routines, easily done, Python is made for it. Besides, if its fast enough for the nuclear scientists amnd fast enough for NASA, and for Indutrial Light and Magic to use for special effects, its fast enough for me. Thank God for Moore's Law; Its about time that we help out programmers with easy, quick to write code, and let the microprocessor do the fast drudge work; better to overwork the computer on drudgery, not me!!!) (3) Information hidding is not part of Python's OOP policy which is also making it a somewhat bad choice for big projects. (Well, information hiding can be done with Python through mangling.) Learn Python at Python City

Ahhhh, but one can always come back! ;-)))

One mistress is good, but two are better! ;-)))

Python City

I wrote "Python is perfect for large programs, because it is object oriented, modular, easy to read, especially easy to maintain, and powerful."

From which you quoted only the first part
(* Python is perfect for large programs, because it is object oriented *) and attacked it.

Well, it is the combination of qualties and characteristics that make a programming langauge good at large programs, not just any one part. I actually agree with you 100% that merely being object oriented does not guarantee that a language will be good at large projects. In fact, extreme purity that puts all emphasis on object orientation or any other one kind of programming leads to very poor languages, in my opinion.

Indeed, one can program in Python in a purely procedural way, or even a functional way, without ever even using classes or object orientation at all! Newcomers to programming often start out this way in Python and do just fine, creating wonderfully useful programs without classes or any notion of object orientation entering their brains, until they are ready for it. This helps to make Python a perfect first language for new programmers, and yet Python eventually leads them to a clear understanding of even the most advanced programming concepts, in a painless, enjoyable, and useful process.

Python is very practical, pragmatic, and takes a middle course. This middle way, the Python way, just happens to be a great way to program. And Guido's leadership of the development process is a shining example of open source development that really works well. Python is continuing to evolve into a better and better language all the time.

The evolution of the Python langauge is a great Work of Art in and of itself.

learn Python

Python is perfect for large programs, because it is object oriented, modular, easy to read, especially easy to maintain, and powerful. Zope is written entirely in Python. The Google search engine is written in Python. Python is used by Dreamworks, NASA, Disney, Industrial Light and Magic, Lawrence Livermore Labs, IBM, and Yahoo.
Python is used extensively in the most complex scientific computing applications, including nuclear accelerators and leading biological research labs. Dylan is a fine language; but the statement you made that Python is only a scripting language is 100% wrong. Python is so easy to learn and use that it is popular; but that doesn't mean it isn't powerful and suited to the biggest of programming jobs!

Your post illustrates a common mis-perception that needs to be corrected. You seem to equate "difficult and complex" with powerful; this is not always true. Sometimes, the apparently simple and easy tool is also the most powerful; and that is precisely Guido's genius and the crowning glory of his creation; Python is the easiest programming tool ever created, so much so that one can learn to program in Python in one day, but is also one of the most powerful programming tools on earth, enabling the creation of the world's greatest search engine, Google, and one of its most complex object oriented web servers, Zope.
In creating Python, Guido has advanced the state of the art in programming languages.

Ron Stephens
Python City Python City