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Er...this will probably get me modded down (Score:-1, greedy) and e-gold isn't just a currency for micropayments, since big payments work better too....but there's a company with what's been called an "offbeat scheme" by the clue-impaired and "just a currency" by me, which has been in the black for more than a year, and has been around since 1996. From the looks of things, we're doing ok, despite very little hype. We store plenty of metal for our customers (of all sorts, in many nations) these days.

Of course, the filthy yellow metal occupies the most emotional spot on the periodic table (see some past replies to my rants) and so far major artists haven't yet set up tipjars, but I'm not giving up. Fairtunes has the right idea, if artists insist on someone else doing it for them, but I think that by using the internet artists should connect more-directly to fans. Some of them already do (I'm thinking of Ted Nugent and Todd Rundgren, among others). Scott Adams gets plenty of great ideas for Dilbert by reading his email, and the same is probably possible for songs.

I think the key is to make payments preferably-voluntary and small, and I think there's certainly space for more than one payment system and more than one currency-flavor. Of course, what do I know? I also think Slashdot-like sites should try to sell mod-points.
JMR

Speaking ONLY for me!

(at least in Salon's case) is that they refuse to even consider alternate ways of getting paid. Needless to say, I'm not going to be nearly as sympathetic as Mr. Katz if/when they die but they don't even bother to ask for tips...

Synopsis of e-mail conversation (not direct quotes) is below...

Salon: "We're losing money on this banner-ad thingy, so now we want $30!"

Me: "Maybe Salon shouldn't lock people into a $30 relationship for wanting to read ONE article, when reading one article can easily be paid-for with e-gold."

Salon: "Sorry, we don't want to think about that right now."

(Who knows? Maybe when Salon runs ALL THE WAY out of money they'll try something new?)
JMR

Speaking once-again only for myself -- nobody else around here is quite this annoying! :)

(I'm not the tech -- and especially not the wireless web tech -- at this company; and as usual I'm speaking only for myself, but I have "some experience.")

We need a bill-presentment mechanism for the wireless web. I can do an e-gold spend on a mobile phone, but it's a pain in the ass, because there's no way for a merchant to send my phone a short e-mail with a URL that includes the target account number and the requested quantity of e-gold (in whatever units, but ultimately for us everything's grams) to spend (or not). Once my phone gets that mail with the URL, I should be asked whether I want to go from email to the wireless web (yes, otherwise auto-delete the mail) and if I log in correctly I should be previewing a spend on the next screen so all I have to do is click "confirm" if I actually want to pay.

Unfortunately, the telephone companies (see the vaunted, moneylosing "G3") are much better at wasting gobs of money than they are at taking advantage of something useful if they don't own 100% of it. (And frankly, I would NOT trust any phone company to do a currency right, they're too clueless and insecure IMO.) Right now, I should be able to pay my damn phone bill with my phone (even without e-mail bill-presentment) and http://pcs.e-gold.com SHOULD be an easy to find URL on ALL wireless-web enabled phones (IMO, flame me for my constant-greed if you want, but e-gold is one of the only actually-useful things I've found on that tiny, crappy interface).

Phone companies have resisted all attempts at a clue-implant for what-works-now, and instead they singlemindedly focus on wasting their stockholders' loot at an even faster rate than moronic late-'90s dot.coms did! (See "G3" again.) Whatever these huge companies do, we'll keep chugging along and adapt. I like the wireless web, and I'd like it to be more-useful, but I don't need it. I could rant-on, but I won't. :)
JMR

(I'm not the tech -- and especially not the wireless web tech -- at this company; and as usual I'm speaking only for myself, but I have "some experience.")

We need a bill-presentment mechanism for the wireless web. I can do an e-gold spend on a mobile phone, but it's a pain in the ass, because there's no way for a merchant to send my phone a short e-mail with a URL that includes the target account number and the requested quantity of e-gold (in whatever units, but ultimately for us everything's grams) to spend (or not). Once my phone gets that mail with the URL, I should be asked whether I want to go from email to the wireless web (yes, otherwise auto-delete the mail) and if I log in correctly I should be previewing a spend on the next screen so all I have to do is click "confirm" if I actually want to pay.

Unfortunately, the telephone companies (see the vaunted, moneylosing "G3") are much better at wasting gobs of money than they are at taking advantage of something useful if they don't own 100% of it. (And frankly, I would NOT trust any phone company to do a currency right, they're too clueless and insecure IMO.) Right now, I should be able to pay my damn phone bill with my phone (even without e-mail bill-presentment) and http://pcs.e-gold.com SHOULD be an easy to find URL on ALL wireless-web enabled phones (IMO, flame me for my constant-greed if you want, but e-gold is one of the only actually-useful things I've found on that tiny, crappy interface).

Phone companies have resisted all attempts at a clue-implant for what-works-now, and instead they singlemindedly focus on wasting their stockholders' loot at an even faster rate than moronic late-'90s dot.coms did! (See "G3" again.) Whatever these huge companies do, we'll keep chugging along and adapt. I like the wireless web, and I'd like it to be more-useful, but I don't need it. I could rant-on, but I won't. :)
JMR

You make a very good point when you say, "Maybe what's needed are moderation systems that better encourage, um, moderation." If I'd had (or could have bought) mod-points, I'd have rated your comment "Insightful," but I don't, so I'm going to post this semi-off-topic rant instead.

The question is, how do "we" get there from here? Moderation of the kind we both seek requires that one value what's being used to moderate things. I consider mod-points a short-lived currency, and a potential revenue stream that has been unfortunately-ignored by sites like this one. Slashdot may not need an additional revenue stream, but other sites need both better moderation and a way to support themselves if they're going to take on the "mainstream" media like AOL/Time-Warner.

Take it from me, if you mint a currency, you should NOT constantly give it away. You need to sell it! (Insert blatant self-interest and total-greed disclaimer here. I want them to sell mod points for -- among other things -- e-gold. OTOH, I offer to give the stuff away below! Go figure.) I have a way that they could easily do this. Because e-gold payments are instant and "pushed," and irrevocable, it's unlikely that script-kiddies with credit-card fraud programs would be able to attack the system as they would if payments were delayed and "pulled."

Still, it's also likely that things would not be perfect in /. moderation-land if Cmdrtaco suddenly began selling mod-points along with giving them away. Things are not perfect here NOW (that's what meta-mod is for, though). Perhaps meta-mods on a user that indicated abuse could result in higher prices for future mod points sold to that user? Should insightful/funny commenters get discounts on mod-points? Should meta-mod -- if done correctly, whatever that is -- lead to discounts? I don't know how it would all work, but I'd like folks to think about the way we treat free vs not-free things. For me (I'm cheap) not free encourages moderation, in the "thrift" sense of the word. I treat free things more like they're worth less (but not worthless). Oh well, rant over.
JMR

PS
I will reiterate my offer of 10 grams of e-gold to anyone who hacks the slashcode to make this easy for site-owners to do, along with my offer to click a bit to programmers for free so you can test it (just send me an account number). Surprisingly-few of you have taken me up on this offer, so far. Thanks for listening.

[Most of you already know what greedy-ol' Jim Ray is going to say, but I have to say it anyway and I don't care if I'm moderated down.]

I can show artists a system that (largely) cuts out any middleman right now, and will lead to (and become the base for) systems that completely do it, like (but not limited-to) ecoin, digigold, and maybe even PayPal (if they're ever profitable, that is...). The demise of Napster, if it happens, will mean very little if I'm right, but it's going to require some new-thinking on all sides.

IMO, to get the full benefit of happy consumers, musicians are going to have to do as Courtney Love said and go to a worldwide-tipjar model that relies on voluntary payments from honest listeners. There will be enough honest listeners to make this worthwhile, even if everyone's not perfectly-honest. For example, I leave nice tips while traveling, even if I know I'm never returning to a place. Part of this has to do with having once had a job that relied on tips, but I think most folks do the same (dare I say it's "good karma" to tip?).

People are used to getting something now for free, and that means the days of $15 CDs' profits sending promoters to Scores while only giving the artists a pittance are over. Fans will voluntarily pay (less, but not nothing) only for non-crappy music, so the days of getting away with bundling it with crappy music are also over. Artists are about to see an age of VERY direct feedback from fans, whether they like it or not. For me, it can't happen soon enough. There will be winners and losers, of course, but overall joe sixpack is going to benefit along with joe musician, while joe promoter busily looks for another sinecure-job and the RIAA bites the dust (good riddance!). The variety of music listened-to will probably VASTLY increase over the next few years, as AOLers discover what more technically-proficient users already know.

Will this all be perfect and utopian and theft-free and wonderful? No. Will it be a better deal than everyone's getting right now from the RIAA quintopoly? Probably so, at least I think it will, but I'm obviously biased-as-hell on this issue, and I'm (as always) speaking only for myself, YMMV, etc.
JMR

PS. Once again, any /. reader can obtain a free click of e-gold from me by sending me an account number. It benefits me for programmer-types to play with my favorite currency so I don't mind. Thanks.

[Most of you already know what greedy-ol' Jim Ray is going to say, but I have to say it anyway and I don't care if I'm moderated down.]

I can show artists a system that (largely) cuts out any middleman right now, and will lead to (and become the base for) systems that completely do it, like (but not limited-to) ecoin, digigold, and maybe even PayPal (if they're ever profitable, that is...). The demise of Napster, if it happens, will mean very little if I'm right, but it's going to require some new-thinking on all sides.

IMO, to get the full benefit of happy consumers, musicians are going to have to do as Courtney Love said and go to a worldwide-tipjar model that relies on voluntary payments from honest listeners. There will be enough honest listeners to make this worthwhile, even if everyone's not perfectly-honest. For example, I leave nice tips while traveling, even if I know I'm never returning to a place. Part of this has to do with having once had a job that relied on tips, but I think most folks do the same (dare I say it's "good karma" to tip?).

People are used to getting something now for free, and that means the days of $15 CDs' profits sending promoters to Scores while only giving the artists a pittance are over. Fans will voluntarily pay (less, but not nothing) only for non-crappy music, so the days of getting away with bundling it with crappy music are also over. Artists are about to see an age of VERY direct feedback from fans, whether they like it or not. For me, it can't happen soon enough. There will be winners and losers, of course, but overall joe sixpack is going to benefit along with joe musician, while joe promoter busily looks for another sinecure-job and the RIAA bites the dust (good riddance!). The variety of music listened-to will probably VASTLY increase over the next few years, as AOLers discover what more technically-proficient users already know.

Will this all be perfect and utopian and theft-free and wonderful? No. Will it be a better deal than everyone's getting right now from the RIAA quintopoly? Probably so, at least I think it will, but I'm obviously biased-as-hell on this issue, and I'm (as always) speaking only for myself, YMMV, etc.
JMR

PS. Once again, any /. reader can obtain a free click of e-gold from me by sending me an account number. It benefits me for programmer-types to play with my favorite currency so I don't mind. Thanks.

[Most of you already know what greedy-ol' Jim Ray is going to say, but I have to say it anyway and I don't care if I'm moderated down.]

I can show artists a system that (largely) cuts out any middleman right now, and will lead to (and become the base for) systems that completely do it, like (but not limited-to) ecoin, digigold, and maybe even PayPal (if they're ever profitable, that is...). The demise of Napster, if it happens, will mean very little if I'm right, but it's going to require some new-thinking on all sides.

IMO, to get the full benefit of happy consumers, musicians are going to have to do as Courtney Love said and go to a worldwide-tipjar model that relies on voluntary payments from honest listeners. There will be enough honest listeners to make this worthwhile, even if everyone's not perfectly-honest. For example, I leave nice tips while traveling, even if I know I'm never returning to a place. Part of this has to do with having once had a job that relied on tips, but I think most folks do the same (dare I say it's "good karma" to tip?).

People are used to getting something now for free, and that means the days of $15 CDs' profits sending promoters to Scores while only giving the artists a pittance are over. Fans will voluntarily pay (less, but not nothing) only for non-crappy music, so the days of getting away with bundling it with crappy music are also over. Artists are about to see an age of VERY direct feedback from fans, whether they like it or not. For me, it can't happen soon enough. There will be winners and losers, of course, but overall joe sixpack is going to benefit along with joe musician, while joe promoter busily looks for another sinecure-job and the RIAA bites the dust (good riddance!). The variety of music listened-to will probably VASTLY increase over the next few years, as AOLers discover what more technically-proficient users already know.

Will this all be perfect and utopian and theft-free and wonderful? No. Will it be a better deal than everyone's getting right now from the RIAA quintopoly? Probably so, at least I think it will, but I'm obviously biased-as-hell on this issue, and I'm (as always) speaking only for myself, YMMV, etc.
JMR

PS. Once again, any /. reader can obtain a free click of e-gold from me by sending me an account number. It benefits me for programmer-types to play with my favorite currency so I don't mind. Thanks.

(Warning, I've ranted about this before, so if it seems familiar it probably is.)

Between musicians & fans involves fans being able to directly-pay musicians, bypassing the inefficient layers of "corruption" inherent in the current system. e-gold (among other options) now makes this possible in ways un-dreamed-of in the days of Alan Freed, and it's going to lead to good things for artists and fans (greed-disclamer -- and me!). Slashdot readers are free to contact me for a free spot of my favorite currency if you want to play with our Shopping Cart. e-gold works for this because e-metal payments are pushed, rather than pulled, and settle instantly and internationally. Yes, I'm a greedy self-interested capitalist, but we've been ignored for a long time in favor of failed systems that try to be a real currency but can't, for a variety of reasons. e-gold, in either a tipjar or pay-per-listen model, is what will work today. e-gold has been in the black for over a year, and is not a typical overhyped dot.com (in fact, I'm pretty-much the entire hype-department, in many ways!).

I happen to prefer the tipjar idea to pay-per-listen because I like voluntary stuff, and I have enough faith in what's left of human nature to think that most of us will leave tips. I also have enough faith in the greed and inefficiency of the RIAA to think that tips will end up benefitting artists more than the present system, but I have no proof (yet!). I'm giving e-gold away because it's in my interest for programmers to try and play with e-gold. Thanks for listening, as always I speak only for myself -- since nobody else would claim these opinions anyway.
JMR
AKA Cassandra, among other names...

(Blatantly-self-interested message follows, mod down at will.)

One has to have a WAY to pay with micropayments. Aside from e-gold (everyone who knows me knew THAT was coming!) there's ecoin, whose site is apparently down right now, but they show a lot of promise for simplicity compared to DigiGold, even though there's even less of an exchange market just yet.

IMNSHO, YMMV, etc. Contact me if you wish to try e-gold. Thanks.
JMR

At the risk of being modded down into oblivion, I'll say a couple of things here.

First, I've already mentioned this idea, as I think mod points are an ideal thing for owners of slashcode sites (if not Slashdot) to sell. Selling banner ads has not been the road to profitability for sites like Yahoo, and it's unlikely to work for /. either (I'm sure not buyin' one at today's rates!). Yes, I'm self-interested here, and a venal greedy-capitalist, etc. so mod me down if you like.

Second, there is a way with --or two -- using e-gold to do paid-email with pushed payments using a superior (and fun to play with!) currency. My usual offer to /. readers still stands, if you want a little of the filthy yellow metal to play with, contact me. Hopefully my email will finally start working again (has nothing to do with this message, my ISP is experiencing problems due to the Earthlink-borg taking them over clumsily). Thanks for listening.
JMR

I'll leave the details on e-gold to your search engine.

The idea that interests me is the possibility of micropayments as low as 5 cents (possibly smaller) with a lot more convenience than PayPal and some of the other electronic payment systems. The transaction cost is 1/2 of a percent, with a maximum transaction fee of fifty cents no matter how large the transaction.

This could allow payment for content without the need for a twenty or thirty dollar subscription when you only want to read one article or only want one-time access to the site.

I'm curious as to whether anyone else has considered this specific payment mechanism. At first glance, it seems that it allows a number of new business models that actually work.

People who say Gold is volatile, should say what is it volatile towards. If you look at real world value such as power of purchase, gold has historically been a lot more stable than the dollar. So the question is, Is Gold volatile to the Dollar or is it the Dollar that's volatile towards Gold.

E-Gold says that they are backed by gold and they are. The gold is controlled by a trust with the E-Gold account holders as benificiaries. The gold is handled physically by an escrow agent under the following terms.

The amount held in reserve as well as the amount in circulation can be viewed realtime on their Account Examiner

Their most recent audit of the gold storage by Ernst & Young is also publically available.

The reason the gold is owned by an offshore trust, is to keep it secure for the owners in case of a court case.

All of these documents are freely available at their site and they are verifiable offline as well.

I am not affiliated with E-Gold, but have been using them for a couple of years now as a convenient means of transfering and storing money. They have come to be known as the most popular payment scheme for Multi-Level marketing scammers, but that is only because it is easy and cheap to interface with. Most people use it for legitimate payment means as well as a recession proof storage of value.

-Pelle

People who say Gold is volatile, should say what is it volatile towards. If you look at real world value such as power of purchase, gold has historically been a lot more stable than the dollar. So the question is, Is Gold volatile to the Dollar or is it the Dollar that's volatile towards Gold.

E-Gold says that they are backed by gold and they are. The gold is controlled by a trust with the E-Gold account holders as benificiaries. The gold is handled physically by an escrow agent under the following terms.

The amount held in reserve as well as the amount in circulation can be viewed realtime on their Account Examiner

Their most recent audit of the gold storage by Ernst & Young is also publically available.

The reason the gold is owned by an offshore trust, is to keep it secure for the owners in case of a court case.

All of these documents are freely available at their site and they are verifiable offline as well.

I am not affiliated with E-Gold, but have been using them for a couple of years now as a convenient means of transfering and storing money. They have come to be known as the most popular payment scheme for Multi-Level marketing scammers, but that is only because it is easy and cheap to interface with. Most people use it for legitimate payment means as well as a recession proof storage of value.

-Pelle

People who say Gold is volatile, should say what is it volatile towards. If you look at real world value such as power of purchase, gold has historically been a lot more stable than the dollar. So the question is, Is Gold volatile to the Dollar or is it the Dollar that's volatile towards Gold.

E-Gold says that they are backed by gold and they are. The gold is controlled by a trust with the E-Gold account holders as benificiaries. The gold is handled physically by an escrow agent under the following terms.

The amount held in reserve as well as the amount in circulation can be viewed realtime on their Account Examiner

Their most recent audit of the gold storage by Ernst & Young is also publically available.

The reason the gold is owned by an offshore trust, is to keep it secure for the owners in case of a court case.

All of these documents are freely available at their site and they are verifiable offline as well.

I am not affiliated with E-Gold, but have been using them for a couple of years now as a convenient means of transfering and storing money. They have come to be known as the most popular payment scheme for Multi-Level marketing scammers, but that is only because it is easy and cheap to interface with. Most people use it for legitimate payment means as well as a recession proof storage of value.

-Pelle

People who say Gold is volatile, should say what is it volatile towards. If you look at real world value such as power of purchase, gold has historically been a lot more stable than the dollar. So the question is, Is Gold volatile to the Dollar or is it the Dollar that's volatile towards Gold.

E-Gold says that they are backed by gold and they are. The gold is controlled by a trust with the E-Gold account holders as benificiaries. The gold is handled physically by an escrow agent under the following terms.

The amount held in reserve as well as the amount in circulation can be viewed realtime on their Account Examiner

Their most recent audit of the gold storage by Ernst & Young is also publically available.

The reason the gold is owned by an offshore trust, is to keep it secure for the owners in case of a court case.

All of these documents are freely available at their site and they are verifiable offline as well.

I am not affiliated with E-Gold, but have been using them for a couple of years now as a convenient means of transfering and storing money. They have come to be known as the most popular payment scheme for Multi-Level marketing scammers, but that is only because it is easy and cheap to interface with. Most people use it for legitimate payment means as well as a recession proof storage of value.

-Pelle

E-gold is a metals storage service and a payment system. It is not a mutual fund. It deals in metal, not securities (shares or obligations of companies).

Gold-age could not pocket your money without your finding out right away. Gold-age's business was buying and selling gold. They were an E-gold customer which means they stored gold in E-gold's vaults. Then if you bought gold from them on your credit card, they delivered the gold to you by spending from their E-gold account into yours. That meant you now owned that amount of the gold E-gold Ltd. was storing. You would know that Gold-Age had actually transferred the gold to you because you can check your holdings in real time at E-gold's web site. They consolidated small trades from random customers into larger trades with E-gold Ltd.

So yes, Gold-age was a broker, but it was a metals broker, not a securities broker. Securities brokers have to be licensed, to make sure they follow the regulations about misrepresenting the prospects of companies they sell shares of and stuff like that ("XYZ Corp. is just an email spam joint now, but they're working on a secret deal to take over Microsoft next week!"). IANAL but I've never heard that metal brokers have to be licensed. It's hard to misrepresent the prospects of an ounce of gold.

E-gold Ltd's attitudes about money and banking are a little bit eccentric, but they're legit and have been known in the electronic payments crowd for quite a while. Their web site is quite informative. Please check it out before making unfounded assumptions about what they do.

Hi Michael, thanks for changing the headline to reflect reality.

click on "market makers" at http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/links.htm and you'll see the description "independent exchange providers" -- which hopefully clears things up. I can send anyone who wants it info on becoming one, it's an interesting job, and was even before Parker's SS troubles, which didn't begin with the SS but with trying to accept plastic (see his words at: http://www.themestream.com/articles/310965.html?pi d=002401000001). The News section at http://www.e-gold.com/news.html might also be interesting to some of you. Thanks.
JMR

Hi Michael, thanks for changing the headline to reflect reality.

click on "market makers" at http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/links.htm and you'll see the description "independent exchange providers" -- which hopefully clears things up. I can send anyone who wants it info on becoming one, it's an interesting job, and was even before Parker's SS troubles, which didn't begin with the SS but with trying to accept plastic (see his words at: http://www.themestream.com/articles/310965.html?pi d=002401000001). The News section at http://www.e-gold.com/news.html might also be interesting to some of you. Thanks.
JMR

Oh gods. What a day/week to be slashdotted (finally). Also, I wish that wired and /. headline writers respectively would either read the actual story they're referring to, or share their drug stashes with everyone else. *sigh*

Ok, I'll start with my standard offer of a small spend to any slashdotter interested in creating an e-gold account & sending me the number (goodbye promotional account balance!). I'll also try to answer any questions sent to me (but please poke around on the site and find out about us first, the concept of grams as money can be a bit strange but it's fun to discover). Alright...

So far, law enforcement AFAIK (and I'd know....) has not contacted either e-gold or OmniPay regarding this case. I am in touch with Parker, and he has set up an e-gold account with a publicly viewable balance at: http://www.e-gold.com/pub-bal.asp?pubid=280478

I doubt the SS will do anything like what you say, the experience of my friend, the artist J.S.G. Boggs (who is the yin to e-gold's yang, IMO) speaks to that, although Parker's isn't a counterfeiting case (and neither was that one IMO). Both are political. It's sad, frankly.
JMR

The numbers in the e-gold database are connected to real pieces of gold that they (claim to) have stored in actual vaults.

This kind of gold trading has gone on for longer than most currency systems. 500 years ago if you owned a few kg of gold, storing it at your house would have been crazy. So you'd normally buy the gold from a goldsmith but leave the physical metal in the goldsmith's vault, and he'd give you a piece of paper saying you owned it. At that point if you wanted to sell the gold to someone, it was enough to just sell them the paper, so they could use it to claim the gold from the goldsmith. The e-gold website is pretty informative about this.

E-gold by the way was trying to be more of a general web payment system than a way to really stash big quantities of money. Later systems like PayPal operated with normal bank accounts and credit cards and fit better into conventional expectations, so e-gold became sort of silly.

I mean, couldn't a Web page be put up anonymously (someplace like Russia) and an anonymous e-gold or similar account be established to accept donations to pay its bills?

Interesting thoughts. I frankly would not trust South Africa as much as I'd trust e-gold Ltd. (aside from being biased as hell because I get paid in the stuff) because governments are more likely than corporations to get into wars or enact unrealistic social programs than corporations are to violate contracts (and any currency is, in the end, simply a contract IMO) but having said that...

e-gold is kind of the older, more-secular branch of the e-metal family of currency. You see, it turns out that if one actually READS the Bible, the Torah, or the Koran, gold and silver get mentioned all the time in all these books. Well, some folks decided to take things seriously, so now we have e-dinar. (It turns out the Prophet used gold and silver coins which were somewhat standardized by weight, and these folks are using the e-gold database and the old version of the system, with different terminology, to bring it back.)

These folks (thank God!) also started with minting coins, which brings me further from the bullion coin business (we like bars now, not coins, so it's advantageous to have folks selling bullion coins for e-metal as not everyone has 400 ounces to redeem). I've met them, and they're quite serious businessmen who have established ties with the governments of both Indonesia and the UAE (Dubai). There's more on their pages, and I even have some of the Dinar & Dirham coins.

All of this makes a pretty-good news story IMO (there's more, too) but for the fact that we don't spend much of anything on advertising (I'm an exception) and instead rely on viral marketing (combined with hiring much-smarter nerds, our secret weapon). The news media are not too thrilled with our stinginess, I've gathered, but occasionally we're covered (albeit not in proportion to the quantity of business we do compared to the overhyped & in-the-red). I guess it's also strange for them to cover an ecommerce company that not only eschews hype, but also has the temerity not to locate in any of the "hot" (read: expensive and not-worth-it compared to central Florida) internet startup areas like the Bay area of San Francisco.
JMR

Yes, money used to be based on physical assets. It is no longer that way because people in "government" are afraid of the responsibilities of gold - if you're a politician and you need an extra $100 million for your project, you can't just call up the fusion reactor people and tell them to cook up some gold coins like you could fiat currency from the printing press.

This article talks about the creation of a computerized bater system to enable local economies to strengthen themselves. Such a system would enable your "environment where money is irrelevant," but for a different reason.

I'm (gradually) moving away from using fiat currency myself. E-gold presents a viable alternative to government fiat money systems of the world, and is my payment medium of choice. E-gold isn't perfect, but at least I don't have to rely on the belief that others will find my pieces of paper worth trading for.

---

Well, not ALL capital is based on imaginary stuff. There's a small but growing market for the real thing, too. (And just so this doesn't descend into absolute-shameless-plug-land, e-gold just got some competition, called Goldmoney that's also based on grams of the filthy yellow metal). I've spent the last few years of my life studying the subject of Money pretty closely, and I'm still learning a lot. I think that electronic privately issued currencies (not just gold-backed ones, either) will change the world rapidly, and I hope Mr. DeSoto is right about helping the poor.

As more folks get used to it, I predict "grams of gold" will be the currency of the future on the internet if-and-when the dollar ever falters. As usual, anyone on Slashdot who wants can contact me and try a small spot of e-gold, as I want to encourage programmers to play with it (and the competition, even, but I can't give theirs away!). Thanks.
JMR

(The same way as since 1996, but nobody wants to notice fundamentals in an age of Internet hype) is by using good ol' e-gold. I can prove it to anyone who sends me an account number and says they saw this on /.. Someday, the music business will notice our growth, I hope...
JMR

(The same way as since 1996, but nobody wants to notice fundamentals in an age of Internet hype) is by using good ol' e-gold. I can prove it to anyone who sends me an account number and says they saw this on /.. Someday, the music business will notice our growth, I hope...
JMR

(The same way as since 1996, but nobody wants to notice fundamentals in an age of Internet hype) is by using good ol' e-gold. I can prove it to anyone who sends me an account number and says they saw this on /.. Someday, the music business will notice our growth, I hope...
JMR

I'm not sure Bush and Gore really want musicians paid (but I found both of their answers to the Napster question pretty evasive). I'm not sure what they want to do, besides use government power to please large political contributors -- a set of people more likely to include RIAA members than musicians, IMO.

What I want to see is a "pot of gold" that helps musicians via a tipjar. There's plenty of talk of "cutting out the middleman" between consumers & musicians, but precious little gets done about it. e-gold isn't perfect, but it works. Now. I encourage /. readers to try it out, email me and I'll provide a bit to start. Thanks.
JMR

I'm not sure Bush and Gore really want musicians paid (but I found both of their answers to the Napster question pretty evasive). I'm not sure what they want to do, besides use government power to please large political contributors -- a set of people more likely to include RIAA members than musicians, IMO.

What I want to see is a "pot of gold" that helps musicians via a tipjar. There's plenty of talk of "cutting out the middleman" between consumers & musicians, but precious little gets done about it. e-gold isn't perfect, but it works. Now. I encourage /. readers to try it out, email me and I'll provide a bit to start. Thanks.
JMR

...Lends more credibility to the disposable credit card concept.

That's not the only concept that should be considered (and neither is e-gold, I'd just like to see better/deeper thinking on payment options here).

Western Union has objected to e-gold-selling market makers in the past, ostensibly because some interesting sites use the currency for gram-based gambling. Of course, Western Union is owned by First Data, a giant credit-card payment processor, which I'm sure would NEVER process payments related to plastic-using-gambling on the internet, since I'm convinced that they're the very model of moral decorum compared to venal exchange-providers using the filthy yellow metal as a currency. (smirk!)

I want folks to play with our system, especially Slashdot readers, so my usual offer to click a bit to any /. readers who create an e-gold account and send me the number applies, as does my usual "I don't care if you moderate this comment down because you think it's 'spam' because I'm self-interest personified," and "my opinions are mine alone" attitude(s). Thanks.
JMR

...Lends more credibility to the disposable credit card concept.

That's not the only concept that should be considered (and neither is e-gold, I'd just like to see better/deeper thinking on payment options here).

Western Union has objected to e-gold-selling market makers in the past, ostensibly because some interesting sites use the currency for gram-based gambling. Of course, Western Union is owned by First Data, a giant credit-card payment processor, which I'm sure would NEVER process payments related to plastic-using-gambling on the internet, since I'm convinced that they're the very model of moral decorum compared to venal exchange-providers using the filthy yellow metal as a currency. (smirk!)

I want folks to play with our system, especially Slashdot readers, so my usual offer to click a bit to any /. readers who create an e-gold account and send me the number applies, as does my usual "I don't care if you moderate this comment down because you think it's 'spam' because I'm self-interest personified," and "my opinions are mine alone" attitude(s). Thanks.
JMR

...Lends more credibility to the disposable credit card concept.

That's not the only concept that should be considered (and neither is e-gold, I'd just like to see better/deeper thinking on payment options here).

Western Union has objected to e-gold-selling market makers in the past, ostensibly because some interesting sites use the currency for gram-based gambling. Of course, Western Union is owned by First Data, a giant credit-card payment processor, which I'm sure would NEVER process payments related to plastic-using-gambling on the internet, since I'm convinced that they're the very model of moral decorum compared to venal exchange-providers using the filthy yellow metal as a currency. (smirk!)

I want folks to play with our system, especially Slashdot readers, so my usual offer to click a bit to any /. readers who create an e-gold account and send me the number applies, as does my usual "I don't care if you moderate this comment down because you think it's 'spam' because I'm self-interest personified," and "my opinions are mine alone" attitude(s). Thanks.
JMR

...Lends more credibility to the disposable credit card concept.

That's not the only concept that should be considered (and neither is e-gold, I'd just like to see better/deeper thinking on payment options here).

Western Union has objected to e-gold-selling market makers in the past, ostensibly because some interesting sites use the currency for gram-based gambling. Of course, Western Union is owned by First Data, a giant credit-card payment processor, which I'm sure would NEVER process payments related to plastic-using-gambling on the internet, since I'm convinced that they're the very model of moral decorum compared to venal exchange-providers using the filthy yellow metal as a currency. (smirk!)

I want folks to play with our system, especially Slashdot readers, so my usual offer to click a bit to any /. readers who create an e-gold account and send me the number applies, as does my usual "I don't care if you moderate this comment down because you think it's 'spam' because I'm self-interest personified," and "my opinions are mine alone" attitude(s). Thanks.
JMR

...Lends more credibility to the disposable credit card concept.

That's not the only concept that should be considered (and neither is e-gold, I'd just like to see better/deeper thinking on payment options here).

Western Union has objected to e-gold-selling market makers in the past, ostensibly because some interesting sites use the currency for gram-based gambling. Of course, Western Union is owned by First Data, a giant credit-card payment processor, which I'm sure would NEVER process payments related to plastic-using-gambling on the internet, since I'm convinced that they're the very model of moral decorum compared to venal exchange-providers using the filthy yellow metal as a currency. (smirk!)

I want folks to play with our system, especially Slashdot readers, so my usual offer to click a bit to any /. readers who create an e-gold account and send me the number applies, as does my usual "I don't care if you moderate this comment down because you think it's 'spam' because I'm self-interest personified," and "my opinions are mine alone" attitude(s). Thanks.
JMR

The currency is growing like crazy, besides not having been funded by VC's and largely ignored by the press. I think I just read on the mailing list that there is now over 1 ton of e-gold in circulation today.

While this is still small fish, it's the most succcessfull attempt yet of any online currency, thats backed by real value. Beenz may have more users, but it's essentially backed by air. You wouldn't accept a pay check in beenz, but I know many people that are getting paid in E-Gold.

Some group in the Isle of Man also just announced they were going to create a similar system.

There is a lot of work being done by various mainly opensource groups already on technology for Sovereign Individuals.
Check out my own project Neudist.org for example, where we are trying to create an online replacement for Legal Entities. Others such as WebFunds and E-Gold are creating Gold backed digital currencies a'la Cryptonomicon (They were actually doing it before Cryptonomicon). FreeNet is creating an uncensurable infrastructure and HavenCo are doing Offshore web hosting.
I'm sure I've forgotten quite a few, but these are the technologies that will enable or inspire the Sovereign Individuals. I loved the book, but the writers are very much involved with the really high end of the market, and when it comes down to it would probably feel a bit left behind by all this free software creating real Sovereign Individuals.
-Pelle

• I like PayPal because it has millions of users. The only worrisome thing about PayPal is: what is their business model? Right now they are buying marketshare with their $5 giveaways, and they are also suffering the costs of being based on credit cards, but they are not passing on those costs to their users. I hope they have a good plan for going profitable without losing their attractive features. Also PayPal is specifically disinterested in anonymity, which is a very interesting feature to me.

  But in the meantime I love PayPay because they have millions of users and they are a peer-to-peer payment system, so there is nothing to stop PayPal users from using PayPal to buy another currency like e-gold or Mojo. :-)

• E-gold, I like because it has been around a long time, it is peer-to-peer, allows micropayments, and it is dead simple technically. (That's a feature!)

  Also, the e-gold company really sets a high standard for being in-the-open about their business, including the automatically generated, WWW-accessible auditing information on this page. E-gold doesn't smell of that tricky e-business baloney about living off of gullible venture capitalists until that glorious day when they dominate the market and then they'll somehow figure out how to extract a tithe from their customers.

  I really hope that the e-gold on-line statistics page is the forerunner of the next generation of auditing technology.

• Now Mojo Nation I like because it allows really small micropayments ("nano-payments"?), and it can be unconditionally anonymous in the Chaumian sense (although the current version doesn't use that feature since we don't have a license to use Chaum's patent), and it is integrated into the Mojo Nation globally distributed data haven.

  Oh yeah, and I because I helped write it. :-)

  Mojo Nation is not yet at version 1.0 -- the next version that comes out will be 0.9 -- so it still has performance issues and bugs. You'll hear about it when 1.0 comes out, believe me. :-)

In sum, each of these payment systems have unique features, and I hope that we can link them all together to make the overall digital economy bigger and more fluid. I know that there are already several independent market-makers who will buy or sell e-gold in exchange for other kinds of money. E-gold is older than PayPal and the e-gold company encourages such people and gives them publicity on e-gold.com and so forth.

Regards,

Zooko

digital money enthusiast

Chief Hunchback, Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow

• I like PayPal because it has millions of users. The only worrisome thing about PayPal is: what is their business model? Right now they are buying marketshare with their $5 giveaways, and they are also suffering the costs of being based on credit cards, but they are not passing on those costs to their users. I hope they have a good plan for going profitable without losing their attractive features. Also PayPal is specifically disinterested in anonymity, which is a very interesting feature to me.

  But in the meantime I love PayPay because they have millions of users and they are a peer-to-peer payment system, so there is nothing to stop PayPal users from using PayPal to buy another currency like e-gold or Mojo. :-)

• E-gold, I like because it has been around a long time, it is peer-to-peer, allows micropayments, and it is dead simple technically. (That's a feature!)

  Also, the e-gold company really sets a high standard for being in-the-open about their business, including the automatically generated, WWW-accessible auditing information on this page. E-gold doesn't smell of that tricky e-business baloney about living off of gullible venture capitalists until that glorious day when they dominate the market and then they'll somehow figure out how to extract a tithe from their customers.

  I really hope that the e-gold on-line statistics page is the forerunner of the next generation of auditing technology.

• Now Mojo Nation I like because it allows really small micropayments ("nano-payments"?), and it can be unconditionally anonymous in the Chaumian sense (although the current version doesn't use that feature since we don't have a license to use Chaum's patent), and it is integrated into the Mojo Nation globally distributed data haven.

  Oh yeah, and I because I helped write it. :-)

  Mojo Nation is not yet at version 1.0 -- the next version that comes out will be 0.9 -- so it still has performance issues and bugs. You'll hear about it when 1.0 comes out, believe me. :-)

In sum, each of these payment systems have unique features, and I hope that we can link them all together to make the overall digital economy bigger and more fluid. I know that there are already several independent market-makers who will buy or sell e-gold in exchange for other kinds of money. E-gold is older than PayPal and the e-gold company encourages such people and gives them publicity on e-gold.com and so forth.

Regards,

Zooko

digital money enthusiast

Chief Hunchback, Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow

e-gold is still alive and kicking. (There's a refer(r)er-id in that link, if you don't want it chop it off. You have been warned.

But on the subject: e-gold is managing fine, and at least they don't have problems with people not from the US.

http://www.e-gold.com

(Not that any of the news media has much noticed, preferring either vapor or companies that bleed a sea of red ink.) My usual offer to click a bit to ./ readers who want to actually try it still stands.
JMR

Is that the user is almost-certainly using plastic at the site he's objecting to here, and I have my doubts as to whether many folks here have read through credit card user agreements. Whether or not the cat food store has it for sale, AFAIK the plastic companies still own and sell the information about you. They're too smart to sell it in a way that leads you to seeing that they sold it, but they sell it still.

Of course, there are many payment alternatives, and my usual offer to slashdot readers of a spot of the filthy yellow metal if they try mine still stands.
JMR

(Go ahead, mod me down as 'spam' -- see if I care!)

yeah, but isnt she really stupid?

Well, I don't think so (although it's been alleged-not-proven that her fine rant in Salon may have been lifted from another person's work). For one thing, she didn't OD or kill herself, and for another, I liked her performance as Althea Flynt in a recent movie.

If she isn't stupid, what's the problem? I think it's her webmaster being swamped with mail, and perhaps mistaking mine for spam even though it referenced holemusic.com and Courtney Love's rant repeatedly. At this point, I've given up on her webmaster and hope to get through to her by luck and persistence and other means.

When I first read the rant in Salon (which has another...um...int eresting article about gold in general, not e-gold!!! ) I felt her scream for a person to person payment system between the lines, and e-gold -- imperfect as it presently is -- fills the bill much better than the theoretical stuff the media loves to hype so much, despite absent fundamentals. *sigh* Anyway, my point is that I don't think she's stupid, and I'll refrain from comment about her webmaster. :)
JMR

I graduated with "Summa Cum Laude" honors from the Ferengi school of business ethics. ;^)

Actually, I'm willing (Argh! Charity!) to click /. folks who manage to send me email with an account number a small spot of e-gold to play with, but only because there are lots of programmers who do cool stuff still hanging around here despite the trolls (whew, barely pulled naked self-interest out of that one!).
JMR

In my experience, small amounts of cash + Visa = skimming.

You're correct, but not because of the nature of administrators IMO. Even honest administration can't get around the fact that Visa makes very small transactions un-economic, and makes person to non-merchant-person transactions impossible.

Fairtunes is interesting, and anything's better than the RIAA as a middleman, but if Courtney Love would ever-in-hell listen to me about e-gold some really interesting things could happen. Yes, if e-gold is the tip jar, there's a small spend fee & storage fee, and you have to get used to a market with lots of merchants who have different bid/ask spreads. If Fairtunes uses e-gold properly, it should be good for both artists and me (just a guy who likes art).

It's easy to do things like my Dutch friends did with "The Plant" by Steven King even if artists have never even heard of e-gold (Thanks for covering only hype, instead of fundamentals, news media of the planet!).
JMR
(Ok, I'll try to stop posting on this subject.)

In my experience, small amounts of cash + Visa = skimming.

You're correct, but not because of the nature of administrators IMO. Even honest administration can't get around the fact that Visa makes very small transactions un-economic, and makes person to non-merchant-person transactions impossible.

Fairtunes is interesting, and anything's better than the RIAA as a middleman, but if Courtney Love would ever-in-hell listen to me about e-gold some really interesting things could happen. Yes, if e-gold is the tip jar, there's a small spend fee & storage fee, and you have to get used to a market with lots of merchants who have different bid/ask spreads. If Fairtunes uses e-gold properly, it should be good for both artists and me (just a guy who likes art).

It's easy to do things like my Dutch friends did with "The Plant" by Steven King even if artists have never even heard of e-gold (Thanks for covering only hype, instead of fundamentals, news media of the planet!).
JMR
(Ok, I'll try to stop posting on this subject.)

In my experience, small amounts of cash + Visa = skimming.

You're correct, but not because of the nature of administrators IMO. Even honest administration can't get around the fact that Visa makes very small transactions un-economic, and makes person to non-merchant-person transactions impossible.

Fairtunes is interesting, and anything's better than the RIAA as a middleman, but if Courtney Love would ever-in-hell listen to me about e-gold some really interesting things could happen. Yes, if e-gold is the tip jar, there's a small spend fee & storage fee, and you have to get used to a market with lots of merchants who have different bid/ask spreads. If Fairtunes uses e-gold properly, it should be good for both artists and me (just a guy who likes art).

It's easy to do things like my Dutch friends did with "The Plant" by Steven King even if artists have never even heard of e-gold (Thanks for covering only hype, instead of fundamentals, news media of the planet!).
JMR
(Ok, I'll try to stop posting on this subject.)

In my experience, small amounts of cash + Visa = skimming.

You're correct, but not because of the nature of administrators IMO. Even honest administration can't get around the fact that Visa makes very small transactions un-economic, and makes person to non-merchant-person transactions impossible.

Fairtunes is interesting, and anything's better than the RIAA as a middleman, but if Courtney Love would ever-in-hell listen to me about e-gold some really interesting things could happen. Yes, if e-gold is the tip jar, there's a small spend fee & storage fee, and you have to get used to a market with lots of merchants who have different bid/ask spreads. If Fairtunes uses e-gold properly, it should be good for both artists and me (just a guy who likes art).

It's easy to do things like my Dutch friends did with "The Plant" by Steven King even if artists have never even heard of e-gold (Thanks for covering only hype, instead of fundamentals, news media of the planet!).
JMR
(Ok, I'll try to stop posting on this subject.)

Because most people don't yet have a bit of e-gold to give, yet. :) I know Fairtunes has an account (and I could even make the balance publicly-viewable if any owner wants).

I have repeatedly tried to get Courtney Love (or any musician) to notice that we've been able to do micropayments or macropayments efficiently, cutting out the middleman and saving people money even if they keep using plastic. Wanna buy an animated gif (hey! it's PUSSY! WooHoo!) for ten cents worth of e-gold? It has been possible for over a year... Try it.

Step back and think about gold logically, even though it's the most emotional element on the periodic table. The stuff makes damn good money, and this e-gold bunch (me included) are NOT going away. We'll keep doing, keeping promises made about the internet and its possibilities instead of hyping the theoretical. Journalists interested in fundamentals (if that's not an oxymoron anymore...) should contact me. Thanks.
JMR