Domain: fairtest.org
Stories and comments across the archive that link to fairtest.org.
Comments · 6
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Re:Correlation is not causation
The best I could find quickly were articles/summaries like this:
http://www.higheredmorning.com/and-the-best-predictor-of-college-success-is
http://fairtest.org/sat-i-faulty-instrument-predicting-college-successMostly they refer to the combination of grades & course selection. My own personal biased unscientific interpretation of these results is, kids who take easy classes to get good grades in high school continue to take easy classes in college. Kids whose grades aren't as good because they push themselves with harder classes in high school continue to take harder classes in college.
Also, with regards to college admission:
http://www.usnews.com/mobile/blogs/the-college-admissions-insider/2011/3/14/qa-on-high-school-course-selections.html
"The answer depends on the level of selectivity at the colleges to which your son is applying. Most selective institutions—and all of the most highly selective colleges—expect students to move to the next logical level of rigor each year and to perform well in those courses. At less selective schools, his course selection will be less consequential to the admissions outcome." -
Re:Weak
We brought accountability to the UK school system a while back. Children were tested (nationally) more often (age 7, 11 and 14, as well as the exams at 16). Schools were rated based on the children's results, and "bad" schools told to improve Or Else.
They do this here in the states as well with what they call proficiency testing. In ohio, if you don't pass certain ones, such as the 9th grade before your 12th grade year, you don't graduate high school. I remember there were weeks in school where all the teachers did was drum on about these worthless tests and telling us we needed to review for questions such as pointing where Washington DC was located. Thankfully, I had my Ti-86 to program on and kill time. On top of that, if you passed the test, there were weeks where you wouldn't have to show up to school until halfway through the day because they considered it "unfair" to those who didn't pass it to take it during non-school hours or to make up the work they missed.
Yeah, my school district sucked. Oh yeah, they also had computers that were running windows 2.1 and made in 1987 in 1997! This was also one of the top 10 largest districts in the state. You can pretty much gather I didn't learn anything about computers directly from pre-college public education
It hasn't worked (well, the government's agency sets the exams, and makes them slightly easier every year, so they say it's worked. But university professors get angry because they now have to teach science undergraduates maths that used to be taught in school).
Same here, many universities end up placing kids in pre 100 series classes just to bring them up to pace
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Re:AA
Let me give you an example. In a graduate program that I used to be in, I was familiar with the adminissions process. The way it worked was that a certain number of slots were reserved for a particular minority group. Lets say there were X "regular slots" and Y "minority slots". We wanted people with high grades and high GRE scores. So, for the regular slots, we took the X people with the highest grades and GRE scores. For the minority slots, we took Y minorities who had the highest grades and GRE scores among the minority applicants. What this resulted in was that to be admitted to the program you had to have GRE scores and grades about 20% better if you were not a member of the minority group than if you were. This does not mean that grades or GRE scores are not pertinent to the selection of candidates.
I think you just made my point for me. Did those Y minorities you brought in all fail out? If not, I'll be guessing that even though you wanted people with high grades and high GRE scores, the criteria was totally arbitrary and potentially discriminatory. However, your group was too lazy to come up with real indicative criteria and just dropped the bar just to make your quota 'Y'. That is why affirmative action is broken. It's because people are too lazy to take it seriously. I'll submit to you that grades and GRE scores above a certain level cease to be actual pertinant indicators of any type of success in the positions you are interested in, but your graduate program group's admission team was just jacking them as high as they could go so they could bask in the "after glow" effect of being "selective". How about all those "regular slot" folks your admission crew screwed over because they were too lazy to develop a more pertinent criteria? That's only epsilon better than professors grading reports by counting the number of words or grading computer programs by counting the number of comments or source code lines.
This is why most of these so-called tests for admissions are doomed. As a recent example, the University of California eventually shamed the ETS to develop a better test. Although many blamed the college for being political in their stance on testing, colleges have been running statistics on standardized tests for many years. The general conclusions are that after a certain score level (which was pretty low), they found they are not much better than random than predicting college performance. To toss in my own antecdote, when I was editor for my college newspaper, we did some reporting about the admissions department, during the course of the series, I found it interesting that admission only saw a small correlation on scores (sort of understandble because caltech applicants tend to self-select for higher scores). Although this is antedotal, the UC and other structured studies have found similar lack of correlation across a broader range of applicants.
The GRE doesn't fair any better in many of these comparisons.ETS guidelines specify: "A cutoff score based solely on GRE scores should never be used as the sole criterion for denial of admissions." Yet one ETS study revealed that only 10% of schools adhere to these guidelines, with almost 30% of those surveyed indicating they use a cutoff score and 10% recommending use of a cutoff. ETS has done little to curb such misuses.
Why people continue to put any weight into these test scores is totally beyond me.... -
Re:AA
Let me give you an example. In a graduate program that I used to be in, I was familiar with the adminissions process. The way it worked was that a certain number of slots were reserved for a particular minority group. Lets say there were X "regular slots" and Y "minority slots". We wanted people with high grades and high GRE scores. So, for the regular slots, we took the X people with the highest grades and GRE scores. For the minority slots, we took Y minorities who had the highest grades and GRE scores among the minority applicants. What this resulted in was that to be admitted to the program you had to have GRE scores and grades about 20% better if you were not a member of the minority group than if you were. This does not mean that grades or GRE scores are not pertinent to the selection of candidates.
I think you just made my point for me. Did those Y minorities you brought in all fail out? If not, I'll be guessing that even though you wanted people with high grades and high GRE scores, the criteria was totally arbitrary and potentially discriminatory. However, your group was too lazy to come up with real indicative criteria and just dropped the bar just to make your quota 'Y'. That is why affirmative action is broken. It's because people are too lazy to take it seriously. I'll submit to you that grades and GRE scores above a certain level cease to be actual pertinant indicators of any type of success in the positions you are interested in, but your graduate program group's admission team was just jacking them as high as they could go so they could bask in the "after glow" effect of being "selective". How about all those "regular slot" folks your admission crew screwed over because they were too lazy to develop a more pertinent criteria? That's only epsilon better than professors grading reports by counting the number of words or grading computer programs by counting the number of comments or source code lines.
This is why most of these so-called tests for admissions are doomed. As a recent example, the University of California eventually shamed the ETS to develop a better test. Although many blamed the college for being political in their stance on testing, colleges have been running statistics on standardized tests for many years. The general conclusions are that after a certain score level (which was pretty low), they found they are not much better than random than predicting college performance. To toss in my own antecdote, when I was editor for my college newspaper, we did some reporting about the admissions department, during the course of the series, I found it interesting that admission only saw a small correlation on scores (sort of understandble because caltech applicants tend to self-select for higher scores). Although this is antedotal, the UC and other structured studies have found similar lack of correlation across a broader range of applicants.
The GRE doesn't fair any better in many of these comparisons.ETS guidelines specify: "A cutoff score based solely on GRE scores should never be used as the sole criterion for denial of admissions." Yet one ETS study revealed that only 10% of schools adhere to these guidelines, with almost 30% of those surveyed indicating they use a cutoff score and 10% recommending use of a cutoff. ETS has done little to curb such misuses.
Why people continue to put any weight into these test scores is totally beyond me.... -
Re:SAT, ICT and Smoke Tests
Even more shockingly, computerized grading for essay tests is now being tested on several state tests.
You're assuming that human graders are actually doing a good job of scoring those essays. Are you sure? -
Re:Ok, even I have to cry "Lefty" on this one