Slashdot Mirror
Breaking Gender Cliques at Work?
An anonymous reader asks: "No-one likes finding themselves being the 'odd one out' of a clique, and gender barriers make them harder to break. The question is simple: what can a girl in IT do when she finds herself on the outside of those cliques of boy coworkers? Or inversely, what should groups of boys at work be doing to be more welcoming for that lone girl in the IT office?"
...nothing breaks down barriers like hearing someone from the opposite gender breaking wind.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
Get the guys castrated so they don't wet themselves and yell "OMG B00bIES!"
Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country did to you
I can already foresee the "Quit being nerds and actually try to talk to her" posts already.
:o
She won't bite.
Registered Linux user #421033
I would suggest getting a lawyer because you should be able to have several sexual harrassment suits on your hands, you won't need to work there much longer.
All kidding aside, I have worked several times where there was one girl who joined the crew. It never really made a difference to me, I didn't sit there with my other male co-workers and talk about how she didn't deserve to be here and had to prove herself worthy or anything crazy like that. I never did anything special to make her feel welcome, nor should I have had to.
I have been on the other side of it though, when I was hired as the only in-house developer for a company and I was pretty much the only guy in an office environment with about 10 ladies. I never really felt out of place, but I had to put on headphones to get any work done because all they did was yak and gossip all day...
I'd suggest throwing out random Monty Python quotes. The best one for this would be walking up to the guys and saying, "Nudge nudge, wink wink, know what I mean, know what I mean, say no more..."
This guy's the limit!
Another question is what kind of age diffrences are we talking about here? That could make a big diffrence.
I think you will find most people don't try to exclude others, but are most cofortable with people they already know or share similar intrests with. If it doesn't affect your ability to work effectivly I would say don't worry about it... coworkers should respect hard work and dedication, and if they don't find a more proffesonal work place.
I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way.
Mark Twain
If you want to be social with the guys, talk about cool technology, fun video games, military hardware, or the latest in high horsepower vehicles. (Come on, if you're in technology, you should be interested in at least some of those topics?) That should allow the guys to relax a bit and forget that you're female. Worst case, stay on the job long enough and they'll get to know you.
What? I wasn't going to say anything. (AKAImBatman tries to look innocent.)
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
I work for a pretty large customer service/financial services company, and there's a fairly large group of us that go out on a regular basis that is mixed between men/women and various ranks too. The bottom line is A) treat everybody the same, and B) accept the fact that you will be treated the same (i.e. no different whether boss or subordinate, man or woman; at least outside the office on the former) If you want to be included in a group with "unwritten rules" like a clique, you have to go to them, not the other way around and expect them to change their values and beliefs to accept you. If you don't want to do that, then you don't want to be a part of that clique (which is neither good nor bad, it just "is")
The question is simple: what can a girl in IT do when she finds herself on the outside of those cliques of boy coworkers?
Your male coworkers know that "shag the boss" (double points if she's a woman too), or "occasionally go topless" would actually be good tips, but their value is probably lost in the blazing glare of stereotype-validation. (shrug)
-Styopa
there's only 1 thing anyone can really do to break through cliques no matter what the gender boundries... be friendly. If you want to incorporate yourself into a boys only group, just be friendly and courteous. Try to find opportunities to make conversation and joke around. IT and computer people are usually introverted and aren't used to conversing with people of the opposite gender (and lots of times with people of the same gender) so it will be usually up to you to break that barrier.
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
I'd suggest you start talking to the guys. Or, dress like a slut and show off your tits.
For the gals: Just show up. Us guys in IT will be more than happy to have some women around.
For the guys: Dont try and hit on the women, and they will hang around more often and for longer.
This all seems pretty obvious.
Perhaps there really is no clique. I mean, are they telling you they don't want to talk to you? Do they completely ignore you whenever you try to talk to them? Or is it just that they have completely different interests, and don't talk about the same things as you. If all the guys at work talk about the previous night's baseball game every day, then try to watch it, or at least the highlights, or at least figure out who played and what the score was. They're not going to stop talking about the game, or start watching Star Trek instead, just because one employee doesn't like baseball. Where I work, most of us have kids, and talk about them. However there's people who don't have kids, and probably feel left out of the conversations, but that doesn't mean the rest of us are going to change our conversations just to suit them. However, if they start up an interesting topic, there's no reason we won't join in.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
In-groups and out-groups can form along racial, ethnic, religious, etc. lines as well as along gender lines. In all cases the goal is to find common ground between the two and build from that. Both sides have to look for it; the out-group needs to find ways to make themselves familiar, while the in-group needs to avoid doing things that may portray a hostile attitude or environment.
It's a hard problem, actually, so asking for surefire things to do isn't likely to generate much that's helpful. It's a little easier to integrate new hires in than resolving existing lines of division. The latter case often requires some leadership from management.
Geek guys are intimidated by women. The really odd thing about it is that geek guys are more intimidated by women they are attracted to, but that their attraction does not match the general population. In other words, the women that geeks are most intimidated by are the ones that "normal" guys would be less intimidated by.
But as for the fix, be human. You won't be able to pull that one off without work. Find what they play, practice it, then invite everyone to a LAN party. If you don't want it at your house, it's perfectly acceptable (socially, check with your boss for employer rules) to have the LAN party at work after hours. If you host a LAN party of the game that everyone likes best with delivered pizza, you will go a long way towards being "one of the guys." And, I don't know how to say this, try, but don't look like you are trying. And yes, it is hard to integrate into any existing group, especially if there is something that identifies you as different.
Learn to love Alaska
At our workplace, we have a small-but-dedicated group of lunchtime gamers.
;-)
Over time, some of our female co-workers have joined us from time to time to play the games. They're usually nice and simple table-top games with straightforward game play and the like. The girls frequently enjoy themselves, as the games are not overly geeky, so even the non-tech females join in and play. We've had a few who could win some of the games fairly often.
Every game seems to develop it's own slang and silly sayings which correspond to some of the game events, which adds to the overall fun of the game for all involved.
We game because it's more interesting than having to actually have conversations which go much beyond the superficial. =)
I would definitely say table-top gaming can be a good way to include people -- though it kind of depends on having at least one board-game-geek to be the provider of the games. One of our member is constantly finding new games to play, and finding ones which fit well into a lunch-hour and have good game mechanics. I suggest Board Game Geek as a good starting point as it has a lot of resources and reviews. Some of the non-geek female co-workers have actually gone out and bought some of the games, and other gamers have started buying copies of them to play with their families on the evenings and weekends.
As far as how a guy breaks into a mostly female clique, I suspect most Slashdotters would desperately love to know that one. So if anyone has more insight into that general conundrum, tey should post it.
Cheers
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Screw joining the clique. Start reading some management books and drive right over them. Any moderately talented, somewhat ambitious woman can make management in a year. If someone is blocking your progress, call them out and/or get another job. You don't have to sit still and you don't have to pander to a bunch of IT geeks.
Easy, if you don't mind the odd job.
In any cliche to be "part of the group" you need to be interested in what they're interested in. That's probbably going to vary even in different workplaces. It doesn't always have to be something specific, but can often be just having similar world views. If you can't be interested in at least some of the same things the group is interested in, you may never be part of "the group". Don't try to fake it, it's way too obvious when you do. If they all go out to lunch, get yourself invited along. If they meet after work and drink, try to get invited along. Start slowly, listen a lot and try to contribute to conversation. Don't get all offended if they start talking about porn-stars or fart jokes. There's still some people that may not accept you, but then that's always the case no matter what gender you are. As long you're in with "the collective", you're fine.
Maybe you won't be interested in being part of "the group" because you aren't interested in the same things. That's fine, try to develop friendships with individuals then. People have widely different interests outside of a cliche.
AccountKiller
Cut off your hair and tape down your boobs. For supplemental camoflage, try quoting the simpsons, family guy, and various slashdot cliches.
They'll mistake you for one of their own and no longer be incapable of making eye contact or simple conversation with you.
Nothing says nice work like a nice firm pat on the ass
Ugh, there's no need to focus on "gender issues". There are all kinds of "cliques" in this world and they aren't necessarily gender-based. (PS: why "boys" and "girl", is this kindergarden? How about "men" and "women").
Maybe you're just new, or you're smarter than them, or you're a different race, or you speak with an accent, or you have different skills, or maybe, you're just shy. Conversely, they might be scared of you! Sometimes guys in IT just have pretty bad social skills.
The first thing to keep in mind is that YOU are responsible for everything that happens to you. I know, this is kind of a foreign concept in our society, but bear with me here. If you want to be friends with your co-workers, you can. If you don't like your co-workers and you want a different job, you can make that happen too. If you want to change the culture in your office, become the CEO, or anything else, you are capable of it. Once you have this kind of confidence, making friends is easy. No need to blame something outside yourself ("gender clique") when you're perfectly capable of achieving whatever you desire.
I know that's a "big" answer to a "small" question, but there was a point in my life when I had a revelation along those lines and these kinds of "problems" just stopped happening to me.
For a specific answer, the best way to make friends with someone (or a group) is to to treat them like they are your friends and have been for a long time. Pretty easy!
So, let's assume these folks are your best friends. What do you do when you see them, say, together at lunch? You join them. You sit down and act as if it's totally appropriate to sit down and say hello, and you've been doing it for years. You have genuine interest in what they say, and you're eager to learn from them and appreciate whatever differences they have from you. You don't care what gender they are, and if they're cold or unreceptive, it's because you need to be a little more patient or try a little harder.
If for some reason they won't accept you as part of their social group, then that's fine too. You can just do your job the best you can, or better yet, leave and get a better job.
Think of some ideas along these lines, ways you can connect with your co-workers. Write them down, and then tomorrow, put them into action.
As for them, well, if they want advice they can Ask Slashdot themselves. You are the one asking the question.
How many comments yet to be posted can be summarized with simply "put out"?
rooooar
They're not getting laid at home. As a woman, you probably are. Really.
But more relevantly, don't worry about the clique. Do your job and collect your paycheck. The good old boys' networks in the average workplace won't last long. I've been in two workplaces like that and both went bankrupt. They'll have their comraderie, but you'll have your actual achievements on your resume, and maybe you'll even decide to run your own business later on; women-owned businesses statistically do better, anyway.
Now I manage a fairly egalitarian workplace where guys don't crap themselves over women coworkers. We judge people by their skill and not their gender. I know this is anecdotal, but hey, I don't see us going down any time soon, so my theory of egalitarian employers doing better, is... unshaken.
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
Right now, it's just me and my manager. I'm surrounded by nontechnical 50+ females all day who do user support for an application I know nothing about, so they have almost nothing in common with me. :-) Not that it's a bad thing, but it's different from what I've experienced in the past.
:-)
In a way, I'm kinda in the same position as the original poster.
To address the original question, though: Do you have anything in common with the folks you work with? Are you into PCs, or tunes, or sports, or movies, or something that would open up some common ground?
How important are these cliques you're talking about in your workplace? In some offices, there are teams delineated by the work area in question, but "cliques" per se don't really exist outside of those teams.
I guess I've spent so much time working with technies in their 30's/40's/50's that I've never run into the issue of "cliques" before, so it's an interesting question for me, too.
Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
Our team has a message board on our intranet with a forum dedicated to social events. Once in a while a social (usually either going out to the bar, a LAN party, team picnic, etc.) thread is created and everyone on the team is invited. The only way you would be the odd (wo)man out in this situation is by choosing not to go.
Try setting up a social outing like this and choose something the guys are interested in (drinking, board/card gaming, LAN party, etc.). It may take a few tries to get a good number of people to go but once you do it can really help break any barriers that had existed prior.
Erik http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~rattles
This is the important question. A group of friends shouldn't have to change to accomodate someone - if someone wants to be a member, that person has to be the one to change.
I have found that girls mesh very easily with the boys, provided:
1) The girl isn't ditzy or an airhead. Now, a girl in IT is highly unlikely to be this way, but smart guys tend to like to be around other smart people.
2) A lot of guys don't like the girls around because they feel really uncomfortable that they might say "the wrong thing", and the next minute they are having a "sensitivity training" session with Human Resources. Don't be emo. Please. Take a joke for what it is - a joke - instead of taking it personally. Bonus points for telling a few yourself, it will help us relax.
3) Give it some time. Like anyone new to a group, there is going to be some discomfort while everyone figures out what kind of person you are.
4) Feminism is okay - Feminazi-ism is not.
5) If someone does something totally inappropriate - you know what I mean - feel free to follow the chain of command and get the other person in trouble. Don't go overboard though. There is nothing worse than someone who takes every little thing out of context in an attempt to be the victim.
At the last company I worked, there were two females hired in an otherwise all male IT department. One was something of a tomboy and she was instantly accepted as part of the group. GREAT sense of humor. The other was one of those types that would whine to HR the minute she thought something "inappropriate" was going on (and, honestly, it never was - we were pretty well behaved there). She ended up being the one noone talked to unless it was necessary - but, somehow, it was OUR fault.
That said, boys and girls ARE different. I don't see anything inherently wrong with single-gender groups. It's natural.
Love sees no species.
That's always worked.
when you hear them talking up about this and that, try to engage (ambush, whatever) them and ride with the punches. If you get in their face long enough, they'll either accept you as one of the crowd or think you're amazingly annoying. Either way, you know if you'll ever be accepted. Since you're in an IT-type discipline, the best times to approach are when they're on general technology topics.
Don't let gender related humor fly. Guys love to raz each-other and if/when tey take pot shots at vaginas, don't just let it stand. It sets a bad presidence. If they take a shot at you, comment on their small member, or something as asinine. This is often how the guy work circle behaves. Its not necessarily as nurturing as the female side of the equation. If you want to break down those barriers, you have to learn to be 'kinda' a guy.
Maybe after all of that and you've effectively broken into the clique, you find that they're not really the kind of people you wanted to hang out with anyway. Its though being the odd one out, but sometimes it's for the best.
PS: This is from a man, so this is the perspective from my side =/
Bye!
if your a lotus notes admin, sleeping with the linux admins helps
Though I'm not a computer scientist I am a mathematician, another field inhabited by nerds with a large ratio of men to women. While there are definatly tensions created by this ratio I have never seen the men try to exclude girls or form a clique and not let them in. However, often shyness or lack of social skills will be interpreted by a more socially competent girl as a form of exclusion.
So if you are a girl I sugest just going up to them and being friendly. Likely what seems like exclusion is really just fear of talking to a girl or fear of looking like they are trying to pick you up. Often the prettier the girl the more she will intimidate the guys and the less likely they are to initiate conversation. Also remember that many nerds dispense with conversational niceities and tend to just launch directly into subjects they are comfortable with in conversation.
Going the other direction the big thing to avoid doing is glooming the girl, that is making yourself overly friendly and following her around in the hope that she will like you and start dating you. It won't work and it will make her uncomfortable around her. If you want to pick up a girl in this sort of situation be friendly but do so in reasonable doses and don't push yourself on her. Leave when the conversation naturally dies and if she seems to be recipricating your interest you can ask her out but don't follow her around just because she is nice to you.
In other words treat the girl as just another one of the guys. Don't worship her and don't ignore her.
Unfortunatly the biggest reason for gender tension I have seen is the catch-22 many tech girls find themselves in of wanting to be polite to nice but clueless nerds and fending off advances. Often this can make girls feel like they are under seige and make spending time with their male colleagues feel like walking through a mine field. Most nerd girls just want to be one of the guys (figuratively) and not have to worry about akward advances.
If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:
There are certain No-Nos when it comes to IT guys.
1. Don't dress like a skank. It will remind them of girls they've seen in pornos, and they will be unable to speak (let alone think) in your presence. They also won't take you seriously or want to be your friend because you have presented yourself as out of their self-esteem league.
2. Don't talk about their interests if you don't want to hear their opinion. Don't start a conversation about Dungeons & Dragons unless you've brought your dice and have your character already started. Don't bring up William Shatner unless you want to talk about the differences between Star Trek III vs. Generations.
3. Don't pretend to know something you don't. If you try to debate the pros and cons of Linux when you've never even used it, these guys will know. These guys are the ultimate IT-lie detectors. It only takes one question to discover you know nothing about something you claimed to.
4. Don't take on the nerdiest guy and try to "break his shell." That shell has taken years to build up: years of bullying and swirlies, years of pirating software and music, and years of being pushed and locked in lockers. Puberty has destroyed their self-esteem, and you pushing to get to know them is going to make them crazy.
The big yes's:
1. Be yourself. The age-old adage rings true once again. The more exposure they get to a normal girl the better they will be with other girls.
2. Be approachable. Put a nice sign on your door reminiscent of the websites they frequent. "Come in and get to know me." "Send me an email if you want to chat." "Hi, I'm Audj."
3. Bring food. Cookies, pizza, and caffinated soda will make instant friends.
4. Be nice. If they're annoying, take a deep breath and say kindly, "Oh really?" Continue the conversation and remember that you're doing women around the world a favor by introducing them to the female gender.
The most effective thing the lady should do is immediately file a sexual harrassment complaint against one or more of the guys. This will break the ice with them and lead to acceptance.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
hmm ... ok, i'm a female in programming and, as such, generally the only female programmer where i work. i've occasionally worked places where there's been one other female. anyway, i've never noticed any discomfort or "clique-ishness" in getting along, really. just the normal "i'm the new 'guy' and we're all a little shy" thing. since we're all geeks, we all tend to have at least some interests in common and so have things to talk about/bond over. now, when i worked game dev it was less comfortable being the girl, for some reason, but maybe it's just harder being the new guy there and not a gender thing at all. generally (in 'normal' software dev) i've never felt any issues from my coworkers. places where we're likely to not hit it off tend to be around politics and stuff like that, not gender differences.
i will say, though, the one annoying thing i've encountered is management. for some reason every place i've worked where there's been another female programmer, management seems to think the two of us would just LOVE to sit next to each other. every. single. time. "let's put the girls together!!" sheesh. like we'd automagically be bff and braid each other's hair or something. i usually don't even get along all that well with other girls (we don't seem to have much in common), so this chafes.
I suggest breaking the ice with a good joke, like:
Q.) What's the definition of a macho man?
A.) Someone who shaves his balls with a weed wacker
or for the opposite gender:
Q.) What's the definition of a macho woman?
A1.) She suck-starts her Harley.
A2.) She kick-starts her vibrator.
A3.) She rolls her own tampons.
or my personal favorite, always a hit with a ladies:
Q.) How many feminists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A.) (preferably delivered interupting the other party) That's not funny!
These jokes are gauranteed to make an impression on the opposite sex.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Men and Woman just don't realize how differently we view the world sometimes.
Well, ok, Woman don't understand how Men view the world sometimes. Men on the other hand do have a vague instinctual understanding of how to not piss a woman off and number one on that list is "Keep your distance until you get a signal."
and boys should bathe once a week, even if they don't need it, to welcome the IT chick.
Show them ur tits?
For the males: Think of her as just another co-worker with a different interface to the human reproductive system. If it is "normal" to say shit or whatever then say it. Don't change language. For the females: Stop trying to prove this or that. Prove your competence because you are a techie not because your are of the opposite sex.
I had been looking at it in a trance for about 8-9 minutes, trying to step through it in my head. At one point the office cleaner, who had been tidying up the room, emptying waste-baskets etc, walked over to my desk, reached in front of me, and turned off my monitor! I turned around startled and looked at him, and he jumped and gave me the most shocked look I've ever seen in my life. Apparently he'd thought I was a prop or office toy of some kind. =(
I didn't tell anyone, but this is just one example of the kinds of challenges some of us have to face each and every day. Frankly, getting invited to the bar after work is the least of my concerns.
Because all Linux admins are gay and love to have their poopers reamed out.
I had woman co-worker who insisted everyone goes out to lunch and sit together at the same time. That was cool. After she left for a job closer to home, everyone went back to their old ways.
...to add to this comment. You should rarely attribute malice to a lack of male interaction. It typically only occurs in those groups which are "girlie" men - those particularly proud of their looks or physical prowess (ie - those which act more like females in their social interactions). As Batman said, find some common interests with your coworkers. Look for an excuse to go out to lunch with the group, even if you don't say much. Personal connection is all you need to make to be accepted most of the time. If you must, bring in some "trinket" that you feel might be a common interest - novel, magazine without "orgasm" or a photograph of any hollywood star printed on the cover, electronic item with "geek" quality. iPods don't count.
A word of warning, though - do not go outside your comfort zone. If you're not a Monty Python fan, don't quote them. If you don't get jazzed over hot rods, don't discuss 'em. Don't take up golf just to get in the mix if you're not an athelete.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I'm the only girl (and the team lead) in an all-male IT department. I've honestly never had any issues; it really does tend to be the women who are more cliquish than the men. In my experience, the best bets are:
1) Never flirt. It's just bad news all around,and encourages the office males to view you as a sexual being instead of a coworker. Not good.
2) Be friendly and just hang out. Go for coffee if they ask, invite everyone out for after-work beers. Ask if anyone's going out for lunch so you can all go somewhere together.
3) Be good at what you do. Do your work with care and deliver what you promise. Nothing helps break down barriers in the office like proving your worth.
4) Don't try to bullshit your way past someone who knows more about a given area than you do. One of my team members runs circles around me when it comes to java, I kick his ass at perl; it's all give and take, and we both know it. I give him the respect he deserves for that and don't try to pretend to know more than he does about java, and he does the same for me. Though, I think this goes regardless of gender.
Having said that, there are still areas of discrimination out there. The most telling comment I got was from the HR rep that hired me for my current contract. Her comment was something along the lines of "When I ask the guys if you're any good, they just say 'Yes, she really knows her stuff. She's good at what she does.' I knew that meant you were exceptional, because they didn't qualify it with 'Yes, she's good, for a girl.'"
The fact that there's still that kind of mentality in some places is just disheartening.
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo - H. G. Wells
But not all nerds/IT guys are socially incompetent. Some of them are actually fairly normal people. They just enjoy working with computers. Just because they're not socialities doesn't mean they can't handle human interaction. Be a nice person, and they'll probably be nice to you. Sure, you might get a Mike every now and then, but most people are fairly nice. As has been mentioned before, don't expect people to change. Just take part in the conversation, and be yourself.
Cynical Idealist
I'm probably going to get modded down for this, but how do you know it's a gender clique? Perhaps your coworkers simply aren't interested in you, specifically.
How competent are you, technically-speaking? If these guys are geeks, it's quite possible that they're actually being completely non-sexist, which means they're going to be just as harsh, critical, and obnoxious with you as they would be with any man. Of course, women tend to take such criticism a lot more personally than men do, so it might seem worse than it is really intended to be. If that's the case, the best thing to do would be to be a little more assertive, rather than crying to Slashdot. ;)
On the other hand, it's also possible that these guys are misogynist jerks who therefore aren't worth your time.
It could also be somewhere in between, i.e. there is some sexism but the guys are mostly unaware of it, and would probably be willing to change their behaviour if you pointed it out. In that case, proceed to point out an individual's sexist behaviour, BUT:
Finally, if nothing works, then just quit your job and go someplace more deserving of your talents. Don't make a big stink (or, at least, think very carefully before doing so) because that is guaranteed to isolate you, and it'll also have the effect of getting yourself labeled as a "troublemaker", making it harder to find a job at the aforementioned place that is more deserving of your talents.
http://outcampaign.org/
I think I must break something to women readers (I know, all two of them ...):
... complicated, isn't it?
;)]
You will *never* be "one of the guys".
The men may find you attractive. They may not find you attractive. They may or may not do anything with either reaction (other than mentally note it) but a reaction *will* be there.
There will be potential awkwardness and problems (and, of course, potential joys) that simply don't exist between coworkers of the same gender. That's just how it is.
None of this, of course, means that you can't be great friends and coworkers, have a great working relationship, etc. But that phrase ("one of the guys") always worries me. If the guys at work are telling dirty jokes to you / with you (and you are going along with because you want to be "one of the guys") they aren't experiencing it the same way as when they tell dirty jokes with the guys. They're getting an extra thrill out of talking dirty with a woman. Bonus points because she doesn't even realize it. Extra bonus points if you are unavailable or married.
Of course, the ones who seem the least uncomfortable or awkward, *by the "one of the guys" standard*, are the ones smoothest at fooling you
But what do I know, I'm just an old-fashioned fossil who thinks that women should be treated with extra decency and respect. It's precisely because of that that I am not going to pretend that they are "one of the guys".
[Now a bunch of guys are going to post that this is bunk, it's just me, that *they* can see you as just one of the guys. Take careful note - they're the ones you need to watch out for!
No Seriously. This will break the ice and relieve tension.
Nothing says "IT fellow" like a nice case of Bawls.
I F**ING HATE people being able to talk only about cool technology, fun video games, military hardware, or the latest in high horsepower vehicles regardless of their gender. I'd better quit my job if I had to spend over 33% of my life surrounded with these assholes.
Additional information: I'm male, software engineer.
Golf... Athlete?
Deleted
Do what I do when unfairly shut out of sorority sleep-overs: dress in drag.
I've been on a couple of projects where there was a lone woman (either developer or QA), and they were always treated as just another team member. OTOH, both times we were all on new teams, so there was never that awkward "new kid on the block" phase.
Just junk food for thought...
Grow a penis.
Give head.
Honesty is the best medicine.
You cannot (legally) be accused of sexual harassment for asking a co-worker out, whether its with a group or for a private date.
Actually, asking co-workers out on dates is forbidden by many corporate anti-harrassment policies. Sometimes the policies specify that multiple requests for dates is an act of harassment; other places that I've worked just mentioned that liasons between co-workers are frowned upon as a matter of professionalism.
So, you might not go to jail, but you might be fired for it. Adherance to HR's policies is usually a contractual obligation, after all; and they all frown upon dating co-workers.
I've been that one woman in the office of men before and from what I've learned you are probably not nearly the outsider you imagine you are. Most geeks whether male or female share a lot of interests, so just be patient and be yourself. Probably the biggest thing they want is reassurance that if someone slips and says something "off-color" it won't result in some sort of "clamp down". If you can just be a geek among geeks everything will be fine, but it takes a little time to establish that.
Caveat Utilitor
Start smoking. It's the 'insta-clique'. And that is where all the best tech gets hashed out.
1. Take your 9mm to work with you.
2. Find clique.
3. Put yourself into FPS mode.
In my IT shop of eight males and one female, there is constant sex jokes, references, and whatnot going on. Basically, male boasting and sex chatter. Knowing people makes these seem innocuous, but when someone new comes on board, there is always a look of shock on their faces. No one here is sexist, but the comments alone regarding sex could be grounds for a harassment case, even if someone over heard the comments which were not intended for their ears.
There is a chance that the men at your IT shop feel threatened, that they cannot continue their current lifestyle of sex talk because you might be too "sensitive" to it. If you're not, then break the ice with some off-colour remarks and see what happens.
I hope that you don't lose your job, though, since you might not know what the culture was like before your arrival. Larger IT shoppes will have more "policies" in place to prevent adults from discussing adult things, so tread lightly but be aware that the guys are probably used to being guys, and making them comfortable to do so will help them accept you.
Just have a sex change already.
Sheesh.
P.S. Just kidding. Sort of. In another fifty years, if humans are still meat-based, I expect we'll at least have access to a nanotech gender-change booth. Walk in, swipe your card, and boom. :)
FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
She should lose weight and dress sexier.
The only excercise they get is doing a lot of good old 12 ounce curls. Now, if that makes you an athlete, someone owes me a trophy.
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
Where? That sound like somewhere I'd like to work.
Then it's very easy. Reroll on their server.
The perfect sig is a lot like silence, only louder
You haven't known many psychos, have you?
--MarkusQ
First, stop refering to men as "boys" and women as "girls". I, as a man, don't hang around "girls" or "boys", as I prefer people in my own social age group.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Sleep with the slightly nerdy but cool SysAdmin
-H
on your boobies, that should work.
har har har
For the woman working in a mostly male office, I'd say: 1) focus on kicking ass as far as the work goes, 2) be friendly, perhaps going and asking people questions in person a bit more than you normally would so you actually get to know the people in the office, 3) make sure to speak up in meetings, as that will demonstrate that you have opinions and care enough about the work to express them
For guys working in a mostly male office, I'd say: 1) If this is really a problem for you, you need to solve it. 2) She's your coworker, treat her like any other coworker, except without the dumb sports jokes and inappropriate comments
That this was posted by a friend of one of their co-workers?
If you aren't going to use gender against them -- say, by flirting -- just treat it like any other clique. To a certain extent, by approaching it with "They're leaving me out because I'm a girl", you're creating that reality. Don't be shy, they won't bite, and you always have that mace and that HR department to slap them with sexual harassment if they try anything. I'm not encouraging you to use that, just remember that you can.
Don't be afraid to tell off-color jokes, and don't take any such jokes personally.
Remember, you asked a question about "how can boys be more welcoming"... Well, I'm sure there are plenty of ways, and you probably know them better than we do, but that's not going to help you. You cannot change the guys, you can only change yourself and the way you act towards them. That's not to say that you're in the wrong, just the practical reality of how to change any kind of relationship.
Maybe try walking up to one and asking the same questions. You may be surprised.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Pffft..
this PROVES slashdotters are not all 14 year old teenage boys!
p r m t h s
Stop assuming there is a generalized behavior due to group inclusion, and conversely that there is a counter behavior to be directed towards it.
There are individuals, acting independently, interacting with each other. Discern the individual behaviors exhibited by the individuals which create a problem in interacting with them, and talk to them about it, one on one. Or one on one one one... until all are included in purposefully interacting with the intent of improving the communication and relationships. You've all get faces. Use them. Face them at each other and talk.
Leaving it as a group effect leaves it in the abstract, where lots of social psychology gets conducted, but few real problems get solved.
"All we really need to do it keep talking." -- Stephen Hawking doing vocals on Pink Floyd's "Talk To Me"
"I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
breaking into social circles should be a very low priority. if a worker, male or female, has in the back of their mind that they are going to acquire a social circle, friends, approval, validation, any of that kind of thing, at work, they are setting themselves up for disappointment and a short job tenure.
i would suggest adopting a spartan kind of mindset with yourself and focus on work. the outer shell should be pleasant and cooperative but inwardly you know you're only there to work.
smile, be pleasant to everyone, say good morning, offer to pick up the take-out lunch orders for the others, and if you see an opening to say a little about the things the guys are interested in... tech, cars, sports or whatever, and you're authentically interested and informed about this kind of stuff... then go ahead, it may break the ice. but you don't want your sense of acceptance or any internal values dependent on how chummy you are with your co-workers.
Let me get this straight... you essentially shun co-workers BECAUSE they are female? Re-read your post you prick, then condsider the fact that your behavior as described is tantamount to a confession.
Orgy.
If you open your mind too wide, people will throw trash in it.
BOOBIES!!!!1!!0ne1!
Yes, and it's exactly the kind of mentality that's promoted by sexist ("affirmative action") hiring practices. I mean, the entire basis for affirmative action is that certain identifiable groups are inherently disadvantaged when it comes to performing certain jobs, and that those groups require "help" from society.
To support affirmative action while criticizing the mentality that is its rationale is hypocritical. (I'm not accusing you specifically of this.)
http://outcampaign.org/
I work with a small team of developers all guys and one girl. Gender is not a issue imo. I don't actively think of her as a girl when we do our day to day thing. She is just another coworker. That is how you have to approach it. A woman who sees a group of guys and think its a gender click are actually making the barrier themselves. Once you show up and start talking and working as a regular part of the team you become just a coworker.
Personally I think your best bet is to break the ice through work related contact. Your new, ask them about how stuff works at your workplace, get advice from them on projects. This lets them get to know you without having to do it through idle chat(which is uncomfortable for many people), and the comfort level will be raised quickly. The non work friendly stuff will come naturally after that if A) they aren't jerks and B) you aren't either.
I don't think there's any one particular difference between men and women in the workplace just because it's "IT", and the department is all guys and one girl, or vice versa. I've been in both situations, and in both situations it only matters whether you can suck it up and be a person and get over your own machoism or feminism enough to just relate to other *people*.
So, if you're the only girl in a group of guys at work, stop whining and worrying about what they must think of you. You're a girl, and as such you need to realize that most dudes really don't overanalyze every word, smirk, and tone of voice used in conversation. You girls tend to do that, generally, but us guys don't tend to do that, so stop worrying so much about it!
If you're the only dude in a group of females at work, don't try to worry about who said what like your female coworkers will tend to do. Don't be a flaming a--hole with your machoism, but instead realize that you're gonna have to be a bit more empathetic, a bit more caring, and a bit more nurturing than you would around your buddies while playing poker.
And to all the others that say "be friendly", I agree, but take it one step further - be-friend others. Don't just act nicey-nice to others to "break in" to their group. Actually be their friend.
A good way to break the ice is to invite the coworker to lunch with a group of employees. This is certainly less likely to be seen as an attempt to hit on or pick up the woman.
We have a female employee who works in web development and IT basically just invited her out to lunch to get to know her. Of course it helps that she's a bit of a geek herself - gives us stuff in common to talk about.
Although it was the point when she played Gwar's "Fucking an Animal" on her playlist that I knew we would get along.
Sometimes my arms bend back.
I look like Tom Brady, so I can pretty much walk up to female coworkers and grab their breasts without fear. :)
that they have to go out of their way to let you in?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
...what is even more interesting is that the question was posed to slashdot users who are the very people that are seemingly incapable of having valid "normal" relationships. I mean, after all, most of the people here work in the IT/Computer Sciences industries and therefore would be the exact demographic the poster is referring to when questioning the social motivation of similar personalities in a group.
Anyway, irony aside, the problem is not limited souly to gender differences. People are intimidated and fearful of what they don't understand. If you are new to a group/department, you are not understood by existing members of said group. Therefore, it is not unreasonable at all to expect to be met with a certain level of trepidation towards interaction on a non-professional/work related level.
That being said, there are certain stigmas related to sexual harrassment in the work place and many guys have either experienced the short end of that stick first hand or known someone who had that luxury. The stigma comes from many of those incidents being unjustified or unfairly accusatory. The bigger problem lies in the fact that many, many guys out there have no confidence in HR or managements ability to decipher the clues as to what really happened and treat those involved fairly. What ends up happening is some poor schlub gets shafted because some girl turned on the waters works and put the fear of lawyers into management. So they do what they think they need to do to avoid an embarrassing public display which could affect the bottom line. Said guy goes down in flames and his co-workers hold a vigil for him at a local bar and one more chapter of G.R.O.S.S. forms and the stigma of girls in the workplace expands.
Is it fair? No, not necessarily but you can't blame people who are often pegged as being "annoying" or "socially inept" or "misunderstood" for being gun-shy in the face of such a situation. I have seen it happen and unfortunatly the good, talented and skilled girls pay for the poor behavior of the less desireable co-workers.
What can you do to get past that stigma? No need to be crude and discuss genitalia of either gender. You're defintly not a guy so don't act, dress, talk or behave like one. Don't even have any silly ideals, crusades or over-bearing group building efforts.
Simply be yourself. You want to be part of "the guys" then understand this. The only thing "the guys" are is a group of friends with common interests. The comfort zone doesn't come from those common interests but rather from the fact that they have been working together longer and have probably had some high stress situations where they had to put out a "fire" so to speak or meet an impossible deadline that required long hours. Those periods of high stress really show who's worth what and create bonding experiences because they all know they can rely on each other. It's got nothing to do with whether you have twigs and berries or not so don't make it about that.
Do what they all did. Be yourself, behave the way you would with your female friends. Certainly don't go with the gender specific stuff but when you are all talking about a song you like or a car you like or a restaurant you like, you are doing what the guys are doing. They just use different words and mannerism. Also, being yourself is important. Don't blend in, group dynamics thrive on diversity, not similarities. You bring something to the table that no one else can, YOU! So be you, you're the best one at being you. If you try to be someone else, you will never be as good at that.
Lastly, step up, learn your job and do it the best you can. If they ask for people to stay late to help with a project, volunteer. If they have a difficult project that no one wants to do, volunteer. If you see a problem that you have experience with fixing, get with someone, share your ideas and make it work. If you make yourself part of the professional team you will become part of the non-professional team...whether you like it or not.
Above all, HA
There shouldn't be any trouble asking her to go out if it's a group thing. If it's just you and her, sure, but if you go around asking everybody "Hey, want to go to lunch? Some of us are headed over to the deli" then you're not ostracizing her, you're including her in a group that she is part of, the IT team or whatever team it is. Just remember that she's your co-worker, not some sex object, you have every right and reason to invite her to any work related gig.
you never talk to the opposite gender at work! you need to treat them like they have some sort of disease and stay as far away from them as possible or you'll get hit with a sexual harassment suit! oh crap.. if you do that you might get hit with a discrimination suit! hmmm.. have to talk to them or its discrimination, cant talk to them or its sexual harassment.. cant talk, must talk, cant talk, must talk......
the only way to win is not to work at all.
Every day at lunch, you see 15 guys surrounding 1 girl walking their way to a restaurant. The girl(s) seem to be doing just fine in such cliques.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
It's those damn jealous wives at home that wouldn't understand...
;)
They make our lives as female techies at the work level "lonely" because the guys get into trouble if they talk to us.. and *gasp* if we happened to go to lunch with the lot of them, we MUST be sleeping with them.
We, the female IT Personnel, are forbidden territory.
ESPECIALLY since we understand what the guys do and their wives have NO clue.
I mean, what guy wouldn't want to be able to talk about their job and be understood for once!!
We are just plain dangerous to all the females in their lives...
Even if we are married or have a SO.
Kris
(bitterly aware of this issue from numerous experiences)
Remember when Windows were washed, mice were trapped and UNIX guarded the harem?
and take off your shirt.
It was Twain that said "Golf is a good walk, ruined".
To allow the girl to have a pink computer with fluffy bunny ears on the side.
Many men here are not hearing what you have to say. I wouldn't sweat it.
I've been able to break into the small circle here at work, as the only female. I did it by making friends with one person, not outside of work, just while at work, and slowly easing my way around to the other fellow co-workers of interest. I don't like one or two of them, honestly, and I don't pretend to either. However, I do enjoy about 5 of them quite a lot. With some, I like to hear them talk about their children. That is when they are the most endearing. With others, I talk about the latest gadgets out, especially on gizmodo / gizmodiva and often recommend cool new gadgets for their wives. With one, I'm just plain silly with, which is sublime and altogether unusual. He's absolutely the most fun to have around here at work. I didn't start with him though. I just started with the guy who sat in the cube right across from me.
Good luck, honey, and don't be afraid to wear skirts, heels, or take compliments with a wink, strut, and zealous 'Thank you!'
I'm not sure if the parent post was being sarcastic, or if he was being dead serious, but either way... there are definately people who think like this in the (business) world.
;)
Whenever I come across someone like this, I always recommend that everyone do their best to sabotage and/or destroy them.... out of a sense of sheer self-preservation.
Seriously, if you allow this type of total farkwad to get ahead, then everybody in the organization will suffer. People (who hold the attitudes expressed by the parent poster) who derive pleasure from exercising petty authority in an arbitrary way, and who think about work as a place to "drive right over" or "call out" their co-workers are dangerous. Like a wolf nosing around the hen house, looking to see who it can eat first.
Best to screw them over as quickly as possible... before they get a chance to do it to everyone else in the organization. Heck... businesses go down in flames when they get too many people in them with the attitude expressed by the parent post, so best to weed them out fast.
Unless, of course, the attitudes expressed by the parent poster belong to someone in Sales or Marketing... in which case they'd fits right in over there, and that attitude is normal within those departments.
The Credit Union enviroment I work in, is actually 90% women. The IT department is 4 men, 1 woman. But the I.S. side (software and programming) of things is actually 6 women no men. I know that my experiences are vastly different than the "normal" realm but I haven't had any "normal" problems breaking the gender cliques... but I do have the wrong plumbing for a vast majority of the clique-esque conversations! Maybe I'm just better off.
Two things are going to determine female exceptance and rule female interactions with a primarily male team. The first applies to any co-worker. The second occurs exclusively with a female co-worker.
1. How competent and easy to work with is this person? If a female is not up to the skill-set or professionalism that her job description entails she will never be accepted because she can not be depended on by her teammates. She is taking up a headcount that could be filled with a contributing member of the team. The same expectations and standards apply for any guy on the team. Same thing with the attitude and personality of the female. If the female complains about duties and tasks that are handled with no complaint by others on the team or grumpy and snippy in personality she will never be accepted in the group. Same goes for any guy on the team. Last, if the female has differing policical or social views then the majority of the team and rarely passes an opportunity to get on her soapbox about them, she's sunk just like a guy would be.
2. What kind of relationship standards to the guys on the team have? If the guys making up the team or even part of the team are in committed, long-term relationships (i.e married, engaged, steady girlfriend) they may not feel comfortable with non work-related conversations, social situations, or even work lunches that envolve other females due to standards of behavior and appearance they they hold for themselves or are expected of them by the woman in their lives. Affairs start with social conversations and connections with people in the workplace all the time and men who take their relationships seriously try to avoid appearance to others of any such things developing. Additionally, when a male appears in public with any female no one can tell if they work together, are related, or are in a relationship. When a woman is seen with an entire group of guys on a regular basis and the relationships are not known it may also appear that she is desperate for attention. The next time you see a man with a wedding ring on having lunch with an attractive female without a ring about the same age examine what the possiblities are...
In short, a female on a primarily male team will gain acceptance and respect by being competent, hard-working, and easy to work with, but for many men, she can never be "one-of-the-guys" because their standards of behaviour don't allow them to be comfortable with her in the same way that they can another male. The same thing applies for a male in a female dominated workplace. If there is too much comfort with the oposite sex any any situation someone (male or female) usually is perceived to have another agenda in play by the other sex, or at least by the casual observer.
but if she did start her own IT business/consulting gig, she would have the advantage of having better social skills, thus better marketing skills, and if her skills are equal to her competitors, she can out compete men. There are clients who would be put off by tech savvy women, but are they worth doing business with?
--- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
I've had the odd, but pleasant experience of being on teams with an equal mix or a majority of females during my IT career. It has *never* been a problem for me or my coworkers. For those who cite sexual tension / avoiding the wrong signals / lawsuit susceptibility, etc... the approach to avoid that is reallllly simple: do the lunch invites, etc... as a group. Guys: "Hey, we're thinking about Benihana for lunch, you in?" The "we" part of that makes it decidedly not an attempt at romance. Gals: an undirected, "Who's up for lunch?" question when "the boys" are gathered in some kind of conversation / after a late-morning meeting will acheive the same thing. Try it!
:-)
That sort of interaction has led to some good lasting friendships with coworkers from previous departments... overt paranoia over this topic would have prevented that. On the other side of the coin, if you *want* to start some more romantic relationships, the best I can suggest is that this is an arena for women to break tradition and voice the idea first... While guys like me are behaving ourselves and taking friendly behavior as just that, it serves as blinders to any other cues you might intend to send. And those blinders are in place for reasons others have already explained. Call it statistics, tradition, or sexism, but obviously making the initial approach is a bit riskier for the male these days. That's sad, but as with most tradition, the solution is to break it.
You mean not all techies are Python fans?!?!?!?
Oh NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh wait.. I haven't run into anyone like that yet. I must still be in the right universe...
Remember when Windows were washed, mice were trapped and UNIX guarded the harem?
There is no problem with women and IT, there is a complete lack of understanding, on womankind's part, of male geeks.
Observe:
Female geek enters department.
"Is that LDAP server your installing OpenLDAP or fedora directory services?"
The male geeks just stare at her till she leaves.
She is thinking, in a huff of post-feminism: "Oh my god, they don't respect a thing I say because I'm a woman".*
They are thinking, in a huff of asthma: "OH MY GOD, IT IS A REAL WOMAN TALKING TO US! PINCH ME, PINCH ME, PINCH ME!"
*if she is really a female geek her first thought will be of Carters speech from SG-1 about her genitals being internal...
in a bold departure from the OMFG S3xu4l h4rr4$$m3nt!!!1one posts, i would like to share an anecdote about a woman who exploited the typical male instincts of the North American IT Nerd.
i have worked with only a handful of women in IT in the past 10 years (thousand of female clients, less than half a dozen co-workers) and the weirdest situation i have seen was when i was on a team of contractors (typical geeky white guys) lead by this very attractive asian lady.
it made us a very productive team, as everyone tried their best to impress her with their ability to deliver results and dudes would stiff-arm eachother volunteering to come in on saturdays. it was pretty pathetic, but it got serious results.
sarcasm:
-noun
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
Which is that all that has to happen is the person has to "feel uncomfortable" -- that's it. It doesn't matter why they felt uncomfortable, whether misunderstood something they overheard, or even if their reaction makes any sense. When you set the bar that low (and we're approaching the Orwellian "thought crime"-level here in the States) a guy has every reason to avoid any interaction with women in the workplace.
I myself go out of my way to avoid eye contact with female employees when walking down the hallway. I do not attend group social events where women will be present, nor will I sit at a table in the breakroom where women are sitting.
They may feel ostracized or unwanted, but that's their bad luck. I have a family to support and a life to live.
Its been my experience that the lone IT chick will be flooded with attention as long as she is even moderately attractive and has good hygiene. All the geeky boys want to go to lunch with the girl. I'd say the more frequent situation is the lone chick receiving too much attention.
In a situation where a female struggles to get enough attention from IT guys she must be ugly, smelly, bitchy, or some combination thereof.
Seriously, it sounds like you have the most socially degenerate bunch of folks in your IT dept ever.
>> Don't dress like a skank. It will remind them of girls they've seen in pornos,
No, it'll make me think you're a skank I don't want anything to do with.
>> Be yourself. The age-old adage rings true once again. The more exposure they get to a normal girl the better they will be with other girls.
Yes, but it has nothing to being exposed to a normal girl and everything to do with them not being annoyed with another fake person.
>> Be approachable. Put a nice sign on your door reminiscent of the websites they frequent. "Come in and get to know me." "Send me an email if you want to chat." "Hi, I'm Audj."
Can you do this and still seem like a normal person? I don't think I could pull it off.
>> Bring food. Cookies, pizza, and caffinated soda will make instant friends.
Oooh! Food! Couldn't agree more. This is something normal people do. You will come off as a friendly, normal person.
>> remember that you're doing women around the world a favor by introducing them to the female gender.
I hope you're trying to be funny. I hope.
Best advice I'd give? If they're worth knowing, they'll talk to you as long as you:
1) Be a little outgoing
2) Be friendly
2) Be a well-adjusted, normal person
No IT geek I know wants to be treated like a social pariah who has never talked to a girl in his life. I've known maybe 2 people EVER who were like that, and it is extremely obvious who they are.
If something annoys you, tell them (jokingly at first, then seriously in private so as not to embarass them). Save the sexual harassment / going to management guns until they're needed.
The standard is that the female just has to "feel uncomfortable." That's it. If she "feels uncomfortable" then you're guilty of sexual harrassment.
With the bar set that low, you can't blame guys for going out of their way to avoid the women in their workplaces.
Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
Try reading Douglas Coupland's "JPod: A Novel"
-pop-culture-damaged twentysomething misfits flailing, foundering, and occasionally succeeding in the high-tech sector-
That's so sad.
I come right out, when I start, and say that if anyone gets in trouble for sexual harassment, it will probably be me. I was a military wife for 8 years and although the army is harsh on sexual harassment, the boys will still be boys, and when they realize it is safe to be comfortable around me, they generally are. In fact, I taught THEM a few things (not like that, get your mind out of the gutter) and sometimes even had THEM blushing. *veg*
So, I start off being open and forward (no, I do NOT jump their bones) but I speak my mind, and my mind is in the gutter, and before long I fit right in. At least in the work place.
Wives and girlfriends never like me.... I'd hate to hear what ole hubby / boyfriend say about me when they are home.
Kris
PS
No. I have NEVER slept with another programmer / IT person that I met at work.
Remember when Windows were washed, mice were trapped and UNIX guarded the harem?
It's a bit dated, and written for MBAs rather than geeks, but Games Mother Never Taught You is still an interesting book. Not always accurate, even in its day, but still insightful.
...I'm not trying to talk to her.
Nothing initates you into a social group like a good ol' fashion naked romp in the server room with the alpha male. If you're attached and monogamous, (or they're ugly) then perhaps you should go for (or set up) a happy-hour or play dungeons and dragons or whatever the "clique" does. IT guys are typically nerds with poor social skills, have a party at your house with some of your single friends.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
I'm a woman who works as UNIX Systems Administrator. Just tell a few fart jokes and the guys'll loosen up. Promise.
She wore very short skirts and garterbelts. People naturally assumed she was just an airhead and kept trying to sneak peeks under her skirts while she fixed their macs. Over time people started to realize she knew what the fuck she was doing and started *requesting* her for tech support. She got a raise.
There was one guy, you know the kind who leaving 100 empty mountain dew bottles around his cube and wont let anyone near it? That guy with the long unix hipy hair? He wouldn't let her near his computer. It took the head of IT telling him to either let her work on his computer or he'd personally come and take the computer somewhere she could work on it to get him to let her open the case. He was affraid she'd "break something."
But you were looking for advice. My advice? Be good at what you do. Nothing else will matter.
After all, everyone fits in at Mardi Gras.
Game... blouses.
I've been that one guy in an office of about 15 ladies and it was okay...for the most part. Women like to go on and ond about how guys don't make them feel welcome. Thay may be true but at the same time women don't exactly pull out the red carpet for guys either.
When a women talks "openly" (i.e. dirty or off-color) around a bunch of women with only one guy they don't care and will laugh if its good joke. But woe is the poor guy that says something like that around a bunch of women. They will try to implse double standards when it comes to talking that way like its okay for them to talk like that but its "inappropriate" for guys to talk like that in front of women. I say if you're mature enough to use talk that then you should be mature enough to listen to the opposite sex talk like that no matter how mixed company is.
According to Ms Magazine, nothing breaks the ice for a woman at work like wearing a halter top, an ass tat, and short-shorts.
It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
Want to get along with "the boys", then act just like one of the boys. I've seen this work for my old girlfriend, who was fairly outgoing and not too attractive. It might not work if you are overly attractive, as geeks tend to be nervous around really good-looking members of the appropriate gender. I also worked with a very attractive software engineer at Intel (Hi Stacy!) who made a point of mentioning her boyfriend whenever we got into non-technical discussions; it helps to put others at ease if they know you're already spoken for. Other than that, if you're not fitting in, it's probably because you're holding yourself apart from others, not because they don't want to be your friend.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Good advice but some of it is a little overthought.
If you are the guys then when y'all are going to lunch someone says, "Hey, we're going to lunch. Want to go?" If you end up with a sexual harrassment suit against multiple guys over lunch then you probably deserve it.
If you are the gal then when you see the "gang" heading to lunch just say, "Hey. Are y'all going to lunch? Mind if I join?" Now this is important. When you are at lunch don't feel that you have to fill in any silences. Not unless you are genuinely curious about something. The IT groups I hang out with don't talk to hear themselves and if you do that's a very good way to get lunch organized and gone to right before you get out of that meeting your in. Also be aware that just talking to geeks will convince some of them that you would go out with them. If they ask you out and you don't want to go don't crush our... their pathetic little egos too hard.
And a final thought for the folks that haven't had to take Managing Within the Law. Sexual harrassment is a pattern. The victim must bring up the issue to management. Management is required to investigate. A sexual harrassment lawsuit can only occur (ok. Anyone can bring one but it won't be won without...) if management allowed the situation to continue once it was brought to their attention or the situation was so blatent that a reasonable person would have felt the workplace itself was harrassing and management should have been aware of the situation.
-CZ
Is it just me or has every single post that started out similar to "I am a female working in IT..." posted by an anonymous coward.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Incidentally, refusing to participate in a relationship is not harassment. It is merely antisocial.
Forcing him to participate in a relationship that he doesn't feel comfortable in would be harassment.
There was a time when companies kept antisocial employees "in the back room" or away from customers. As our workplace evolves, there is less room for people with behavioural quirks such as this. Eventually, he will likely find himself out of work and will have difficulty finding employment in his field, as the majority of tech-recruiters are female.
While I wouldn't hire a person with this type of behavioural anomaly, it's unfair to force him to adopt a social stance. He requires counseling, not insults.
"Active Mental Groping" - That was the term for merely looking at a female at my previous place of employment.
You can't have a mixed gender working environment in that atmosphere. At an up-tight large corporation, a female can forget about becoming buddies with the boys. Even if a friendly female were to be accepted as a non-threat by the male group, another female could become jealous of the social setting and complain to HR about the "hostile" clique.
Complainer females are the bane of a relaxed social environment in a corporation. I saw one supervisor sent into "early retirement" because a complainer female was assigned to him. Few managers are flameproof enough to get rid of a complainer female. One manager did the only wise thing he could do - he promoted a complainer female to a different department.
Until the sexual harassment revolution cools down, that's that way it is.
easy!!!
send them all an email saying you need them in the conference room asap for an important meeting.
when they all show up, drop to your knees and show them what a good team player you can be.
at least that's how this 1950's office manual i'm holding says : )
A lot of posts have mentioned thing about worries due to sexual harassment problems. The 2 most well adjusted females in our IT department have managed to fit in pretty well pretty quickly. Whether intentionally or more likely just because of their nature they made it very obvious where they stood on sexual harassment issues. Some dirty jokes, lots of hanging out and BSing and it became pretty evident what you could or couldn't do.
Make it obvious, or even flat out state it. I will be annoyed and speak with you first if you do ??? and if you don't stop, I'll bring it up with management. If you do ??? It's going to management right away. Draw your line in the sand on what you will and won't accept. Some people think boundaries were made to be broken, but most of us are pretty content as long as we know where we stand and what we can get away with safely.
On a similar note, never date a co-worker, especially in the same department. I've seen it happen many times, and only once it didn't end very badly for everybody involved. It can hurt your career.
On a more general note, just be yourself. Find out what the cliques are, I'm probably in the gamer, geek, jetskiier & IT guys who have been around a long time cliques (each one has at least 1 female that I'd include as part of the clique). In each of the cliques, I have something in common with the other members, and more often than not we end up talking about stuff relating to the clique.
You may or may not end up having anything in common with the cliques, and it's probably best to not force yourself into them. If people are a gearhead clique, and your not at all into automotive stuff, trying to hang out with them will just end up making you feel like a 3rd wheel to both sides.
Find people who have something in common with you, often just being a fellow IT person can be enough. Be yourself, and let people know who you are and where you stand.
There aren't cliques here people. The fact is, in my opinion, that men and women aren't going to be friends unless they're courting. Personally, I have no interest in forming a "friendship" with a woman unless I'm attracted to them. I'll be personable and try to make them feel comfortable, but in actuality, they're simply the other gender. I suppose the exception here may be sexuality. Dan
Anything can, could, and will happen.
Kanga: That's not a fish, that's a bird.
Pooh: Yes, but is it a starling or a mackeral?
Oddly enough, I've had to deal with this as well, but not in the way one might expect.
I have a daughter who is (from a viewpoint that could be accused of bias) brilliant, but she was having trouble fitting in at school. She would isolate herself with books (even during recess), and then wondered why nobody would talk to her.
My wife and I recognized the symptoms and acted on it - we had her start watching (oh, %DEITY%) "American Idol," because it gave her something to discuss with the other kids. It broke the ice, though -- and in a much less harmful way than, say, taking up glue-sniffing.
So, yes, finding something that the group is already doing and trying it oneself is better than moping on the sidelines.
Strike while the irony is hot! -- The Freethinker
There are some people that are afraid of sexual harassment, and I suppose that some people are deathly afraid of it. (Like the friend of mine who is convinced that any woman on the street will accuse him of being her baby-daddy to get child support.) These people are afraid of everything and you don't want to hang out with them anyway...
... about how she felt about the day, about how so-and-so would look better in nicer clothes, etc.
Most likely though, you've just got to learn that male bonding is different from female bonding...
At my office, my goal for the day is to get as much work done with the least amount of communication with others as I can get away with. Unless the interaction is about something cool they found. Even then, tell the story and then get the hell out of my office - I got stuff to do.
When my wife started a new job last week, she complained that she now had an office (as opposed to the cube farm) and didn't have anyone to talk to anymore. So now she comes home and talks to me
We are both engineers, and both like similar things (she is a big SciFi fan) - we just talk about different things. I talk about things (which bores her to tears), and she talks about people (which bores me to tears).
I would simply assume that they aviod you because they avoid everyone not immediately needed for their current task. If they aren't talking about work, my bet is they are telling stories about getting too trashed at a LAN party. My suggestion is to simply understand these differences and play off of them.
#1 - Don't be offended by their stories.
#2 - Don't interrupt them when they are busy
#3 - They don't even know what feelings are, much less how to talk about them
#4 - Realize that 99% of non-informational conversation between men are dick size conversations... ie. this new Video Card makes my dick [n] larger than yours - my car has 50 more HP than yours - etc. Ok, not technically comparing dick size (I wouldn't recommend that conversation) but just male posturing to see how much cooler you are than he is.
#5 - The other 1% of male conversation is about Greedo shooting first. So know your Star Wars trivia. Wikipedia means you don't even have to watch it...
Problems like this exist in most segments of society. Jealousy is a very common phenomenon, wherever men and women mix. It is part of the DNA imperative for people to worry about this. For that matter a certain amount of cheating probably helps people propogate, so the worries are rational.
:)
Deal with it. If anything this is less of a problem in IT because of the predominance of only one gender.
But don't tell my wife I wrote this
I realise in hindsight that the reason I'd stop sexually harassing if my peers dissaproved is possibly part of the reason that I wouldn't start sexually harassing to begin with (the other part being my unreconsilable fear of anything with ovaries), so it might not be that useful. Would someone in the sexual harassment community care to comment?
When Argumentum ad Hominem falls short, try Argumentum ad Matrem
Let me get this straight... you essentially shun co-workers BECAUSE they are female? Re-read your post you prick, then condsider the fact that your behavior as described is tantamount to a confession.
Um, yeah. I shun coworkers because they're female, and it's not harassment at all. It might be discrimination, but it's certainly not harassment. Even if it is "discrimination", it's personal discrimination, which isn't against the law. If I refused to hire someone because they were female, that's illegal. (Thank goodness I'm not in a situation to make that choice; I don't want to be sued for not hiring an under-qualified woman, or being sued because a did hire a qualified woman and she thinks it was only because she looks good in a skirt.) If I choose to avoid a certain group of people in a way that violates no laws, that's my personal choice. Does it make me a prick? Possibly, but at least I'm a prick who still has a job.
It's funny you should bring this up in this manner. I've never seen a group of male IT's keep a female IT out. Quite the opposite, actually. I'm that way myself, I'd rather help them than alienate them. Well, unless they are manipulating me... Thats another point.
Why is this always a problem, see some group you want to be friends with, ask if you can join them for lunch, and chat. Do this every so often as long as you feel there's a chance in.
See someone you want in your group invite to a group lunch or what ever. If they so no ask again. Don't ask more then 3 times a week, and don't ask for a 1 on 1 style lunch (especially if it's the opposite sex) at least at first.
This isn't rocket science but it is human dynamics and believe me that's a challenging issue even for the smartest people. The simplest thing is to involve them, but don't talk around them. Don't change your topic because your in mixed company (though try not to start the "who was hotter Lori Loughlin or Tiffany Amber Thiessan. Because Tiffany always wins") but also be sensative to who's there. Ask opinions if they are shy, if they are a soft talker listen closely.
Over time you'll learn about them, talk to them about shared interests, after a while an offtopic won't hurt if they seem to enjoy talking about them for what ever reason then it's an open door (don't devote the lunch to the who's hotter though)
Just remember joining a clique isn't a daily thing, or something that happens over night, but at the same time just because a member is in a clique doesn't mean they'll always hang out. Having two cliques that hang out at times is good too.
The whole thing is to start a communication system and at least help it grow at first, but remember two people may never become friends, there just might be nothing there to foster friendship, so if it fails the best thing to do is be friendly and let it be. Something might spark a friendship later, like you wearing a football shirt for the Patriots and you find out you both grew up in Boston... you never know.
Way to get all of the chicks to post!
/. chicks... Yeah...
Yeah....... Hey there,
The really odd thing about it is that geek guys are more intimidated by women they are attracted to,
...and the Ring of Power: He desires and hates it at the same time.
My precioussssss!!!!!
If you're a woman in an all guy enviroment, just be the first one to tell an off-color joke. That usually breaks the tension enough that it's pretty easy from there on out.
My biggest complaint with my female co-workers has been a total unwillingness to put in any overtime, work on any extra projects, etc. The usual excuse always has something to do with their kids - picking them up, taking them to practice, etc. Seriously, is it going to kill your husband if he has to be the one to take Suzie to band practice one night out of how many months? Since they don't really carry their share, they are seen as second string contributors by most of my male colleagues. I have to admit that in many ways I seem them in the same light.
Then when they get passed over for promotions, plum assignments, etc. they get bitter and resentful. Since I've always been willing to do what needs doing to get the job done, I get a lot of respect from my male counterparts and superiors. If something's broken, I'm staying until it's fixed. I work pretty hard to make sure that nothing's going to be broken, but hey, stuff happens. Patches don't always perform as expected. Maybe the router needs to be rebooted. It doesn't really matter what the problem is, but if it's genuinely mission critical, I'm not going home until it's back on line.
Because of this, I'm a frequent recipient of bonuses, very positive performance appraisals, interesting projects, etc. I've had to deal with some female colleagues who were unhappy because they got passed over and I didn't. They would have liked to be able to file a complaint with HR that they were being discriminated against because of gender, but since so many of the things they wanted went to me, they could not. I actually got into a shouting match with one of them because I got an assignement she wanted. She made some accusations about favoritism and had no idea that her turning into a pumpkin promptly at 3pm, no matter what else was happening, was costing her. She thought that it was because I went outside and smoked with all the guys. That had very little to do with it. I got invited to go out and smoke with the guys precisely because I was "one of the team" and not "one of the candya$$&$". I tried to explain to her that if she'd just stick around or work an overtime assignment once in a while, it would go a long way toward smoothing things over for her, but she didn't want to hear it.
Instead of her own bad behvior, she made a bunch of accusations that ended up with her getting fired. She complained that I was getting favorable treatment when she was just a competent (which she wasn't - she made a lot of high profile mistakes including knocking out our external connection), doing the same work (which she wasn't - system operator vs. network administrator), and doing just as good a job (which she wasn't - HR said that the performance reviews were "no comparision"). After a few interviews with our co-workers, HR decided that she was the one with the problem and asked me if I'd like to file a complaint about her creating a hostile work environment (the whole incident where she cornered me in the women's bathroom and screamed at me - so loudly and so long that several other employees came into the restroom to find out what was going on). After consulting with my boss, I decided that it was probably best that I file the complaint. You cannot imagine how surprised she was when she was the one that got fired. Sadly, it only got worse from there because I started getting threatening phone calls from her husband. I called the police, filed a complaint, and they got arrested.
Frankly, a lot of the women I work with really make me angry because they give the rest of us a bad name. They want all the gravy, but they don't want to pay the dues to get it.
2 cents,
QueenB
HDGary secures my bank
Easy: Give them cookies.
Men really are that easy : )
You can't take the sky from me...
bah. too easy... but I'm 35, and I should be mature for /.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
Really, "boys and girls"?
If you're all old enough to be working full time, they deserve the title of "men", and you really need to start thinking of yourself as a woman. If I had a co-worker who called me a boy, I'd probably be flattered, but that's only because I'm fifty years old. When I was in my twenties, "man" would have done a lot more for my self-esteem.
---- "XML is like violence. If it doesn't fix the problem, you aren't using enough."
"The question is simple: what can a girl in IT do when she finds herself on the outside of those cliques of boy coworkers? Or inversely, what should groups of boys at work be doing to be more welcoming for that lone girl in the IT office?"
;)
I am one of those IT rarities - a female. And from my experience, this is my attempt to answer the question.
If you are a woman on the outside of the clique you are there for one of two reasons: Either these are men that don't believe a women can't perform in this field or they simply don't know how to respond to women, seeing as they are so frequently (sarcasm) working with them. If you are on the outside for the first reason, chances are you won't win them over at all, but if you do, it will be by showing them you know what you are doing and that you are not a bumbling, ditzy 'girl' hired to fill a quota. In this day and age though, I would hope it is the latter. Don't try to join the clique just to join the clique; do it because you have common interests and could actually have conversations with these guys on the same level. If you are trying to get in, maybe you should approach the group about doing lunch. If you feel isolated, then try to do something about it. If it fails, well at least you tried. You can't rely on them to approach you.
To the men - if she is an IT 'girl,' chances are she is not like most women anyways. I have actually found that I share more opinions with men than I do women. I myself tend to see many women as annoying, and ditzy and overtly obsessed with shopping and with whom I have nothing in common. However, the women I have met in my field, tend to be different. They are less petty and easier to talk with and who actually know their s***. If you get any impression she is like me, she should be easily approachable and easy to include in the group. Despite many previous posts to the contrary, chances are she wants to be treated as "one of the guys". And you may be suprised to find out, that its not that hard to do.
On the other hand though, being women in a male-dominated field does put some on the defensive (as the lawsuits would imply). I would have to agree with most of the previous posts about approaching her as a group or sending out the e-mail to do lunch. Lunch is a great ice breaker. If I was worried about being hit on, I would feel less intimidated by this approach. And to women in this position - calm down. Not every guy who approaches you is trying to get in your pants. Even though I am sure the thought may have crossed their mind at least once.
People on both sides of this gender thing just need to lighten up. Learn to relax. Thats probably a key thing to trying to include yourself/'the girl' in the group.
She was agressively social, was she. Bet she made you exchange photos and shit like that. Women...
t -charges kind of embarrasment. All communication will take place out of necessity and thus will be devoid of tension.
On a sidenote, segregation is the ideal solution for these problems. Take a few gals, put them in a group, isolate them from the males as much as possible and this will eliminate any I-don't-want-to-talk-to-you-for-fear-of-harassmen
All the slashdotters telling us that you should just treat the chicks "neutrally" are clearly losers. You can't treat a girl "normally" because normal for them entails entirely different meanings, in most cases. Just be normal. Oh never mind.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I've worked for a big paternalistic company where things were far different - this was the phone company ~1980, which looked a lot like academia. Dating coworkers was just fine, marrying them was just fine, having your kids join the company was just fine - as long as you didn't have one person in a couple able to influence the salary and work assignments of their partner (or one person in an ex-couple influencing the salary of their ex-partner.) There were lots of group social activities - music, dancing, outing club, ski club, softball, etc., and a group that wasn't *officially* the singles club. There were still lots of issues with the old sexist and racist cultural values, and we were doing a lot of affirmative action things to deal with diversity values, and some of our customers were old-style companies (one 25-year-old female coworker found it really strange doing a project at a company where the engineers were all over-fifty white-shirt-wearing men and having to get them to take her seriously.) But we got through it. (Boy, times have changed - I haven't had a male boss in the last decade, except for a month when were were reshuffling territories, though occasionally my bosses have had a male boss.)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The question is simple: what can a girl in IT do when she finds herself on the outside of those cliques of boy coworkers?
As has already been pointed out, but let me reiterate, the key is sexual harassment. There are a few women here that go to lunch with the four guys and I who usually go to lunch together. They have made it clear that they are OK with baudy humour. Bad baudy humour. Bad baudy humour that is clearly offensive. And objectifying women when we drive through the campus of the nearby college.
I'm not a bad person. I don't believe that women are objects. The women I am most attracted to are those who are smart and career oriented. But I am a mammal, and I like nice racks too. And likewise, if one of the girls is ogling college boys, or talking about what insensitive pricks men are, we're cool with that.
It works because we all respect one another, and ourselves, enough to know that jokes are just jokes, and purely physical attraction is perfectly normal.
Unfortunately in our society, being mature and comfortable with oneself is optional, and kowtowing to those who are not is mandatory.
A couple of thoughts, probably reiterating other posts...
- I doubt that what you are seeing are cliques; it may be worthwhile reevaluating your ideas about female and male social behavior. (In fact, just observing around the office should show you the difference.) In general men don't have the "chick clique" approach to socializing and probably don't assess who they talk to in the office as much as women do. It always looks to me like men just go up and talk to each other.
- Be professional. Know your stuff and do a good job. Ask questions and learn from your coworkers. This will help identify any possible issues such as fear of sexual harassment, fear of women, shyness, preoccupation, or introspection (a.k.a. "I'm a serious nerd but just because I dodge eye contact and act socially retarded doesn't mean I can't have a conversation when the topic is relevant.") The more you learn about people the better you can determine whether you even want to hang out with them in the first place.
- Be clear on what you want from your coworkers. Are you looking for new friends? Do you just want them to say hi to you in the morning? Do you need to network/gossip to familiarize yourself with the workplace culture? Do you enjoy technical banter? Are you trying to figure out what all the different positions and departments do? Different people have different responses to these interactions, and likewise what you would like from them may vary widely.
I find that for offices the idea of anyone being "welcoming" to new employees is really a factor of the office policies, culture and politics. In some places I have been given tours and introduced to everyone; in others I worked for years and nobody knew who I was. Honestly, I like to just sit and plug away at my work so my social circle at work is usually very compact and limited to the folks I interact with to get tasks done. I realize I have been very fortunate but the men I have worked with have shown good camaraderie which over time extended to the occasional obscene yet relatively tame joke (much tamer than the ones my uncle sends me on a regular basis) and beers after work.
I'm not sure that men should do anything special to welcome a woman to the workplace; regardless of gender, people should be courteous, introduce themselves to each other and explain what their position entails when they are going to work together.
Science is about what is, not what we believe or hope. -- Dr. Lonnie Thompson, glaciologist, Ohio State University
Invite them over to your place for an evening of "mastrubating to internet porn together".
You'll be the most popular person in the clique for sure.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I think this whole thread is silly. All you need is an ice breaker. Just put on some bright red high heels, a tight pair of jeans, and a tee shirt that says, "I'd do me." I positively guarantee immediate acceptance from the men on the team and amusing comments like, "Me too!" and "I like your hair today!" and "OMG, girl! You have got to tell me where you shop."
Any time you're the newbie in the group, it takes a while to figure out the social situation and build relationships with people, and while we should have gotten over this as a society, I suppose that's still harder if you're female. Sigh. Working with more mature people usually helps, and working with geeks can be ok if you're the type that shares geeky interests. Fortunately, as a newbie in an organization, there are *lots* of things to initiate conversations with people about if you need an excuse to do that, ranging from what's going on with your projects to where the staplers are to how the bureaucracies work to where people go out for lunch.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
While you engaged in "geek bonding" via anecdotal posting on Slashdot. Vive la Difference!
May the Maths Be with you!
Of course the girls should make a calender! That's what was done in Australia to show that women in IT are just as hot as any other women.
Why do today what you can put off until tomorrow?
No, not mean or sarcastic. I'm dead serious. You are projecting a percieved prejudice which doesn't exist. If you told me you were discriminated in any other industry, I'd more likely take your word for it. Women in IT are such a novelty and there are so many geeks screaming for sexual diversity in the geek community that you should have them laying a red carpet in your path. If you haven't been accepted, there may be a number of reasons from social to professional inadequacy or even something stupid like the guys don't even get along that well with each other. I very seriously doubt that you have found the only four women-haters in the industry.
Sadly, the more this advice applies to you, the less likely you will be to take it. I hope you don't turn out to be like a manager I had once, who "paid back" all of her fantasized discrimination of her sex by becoming a ruthless persecutor of men as soon as she was promoted, and even bragging about it. That person was a monster, shunned by men and women alike. I don't know how you can go through life at war with half of the human race.
I came in late into this discussion. It seems that there is an easy, elegant solution: wait for the female to initiate communication. Perhaps they'll lonely and 'get it'. If not, then nothing lost.
Official Pi Ambassador -- inquire for details!
From reading a lot of the posts here, I get the impression that a lot of guys are so completely terrified of being slapped with sexual harassment law suits that they will not even talk to women at work. Some of the guys posting in this discussion apparently have absolutely no clue what kind of behavior constitutes sexual harassment. This is totally ridiculous. Interacting with female co-workers isn't all that difficult. I honestly think this is just an excuse for excluding women from the normal socialization between co-workers. It is NOT sexual harassment when a group of men who frequently go to a pub after work invite a female co-worker to join them.
On the other hand, it is sexual harassment to repeatedly ask a female co-worker out on dates even though she refuses every single time you ask. It is sexual harassment to deny a woman a promotion or pay raise because she refuses to go out on dates with you or refuses to have sex with you. If a female co-worker does agree to go out on a date with you, it is sexual harassment to tell your male co-workers the details of your date or to spread rumors about her sexual relations at work.
If a group of men ask a female co-worker to join them at their weekly after work visit to the pub, they need to behave in a respectful manner towards her. When they go to the pub, they should treat her with the same consideration that they do at work, even though they are not technically at work anymore. For example, sexually explicit jokes or comments with graphic descriptions of bodily fluids, sexual organs, sexual intercourse, rape, or a woman's menstrual cycle are not appropriate. Making derogatory comments about women in general is also not appropriate. If you wouldn't talk that way to your mother, then you probably shouldn't talk that way in front of a female co-worker.
I realize that among adults it is impossible to completely avoid all sexual innuendo. Every once in a great while it is probably okay to share a slightly off-color joke or comment with both your male and female co-workers. Sometimes off-color remarks just pop up in casual conversations between adults, with no malice intended. This is not sexual harassment. If you offend someone, they should tell you right away. You should then immediately make a sincere apology: "I'm sorry for offending you and I will do my best not to make remarks like this in the future." Do not get defensive or be sarcastic in your response and say something like: "Gee, take it easy lady! It's only a joke. Don't get your panties in a bundle!" It's also really irritating when guys make catty "meowing" noises when a woman takes offense at something or expresses a strong opinion. Those kinds of responses are certain to get you into trouble.
So in other words, just be polite and you will be fine. Give your female co-workers the same respect you would give the other women in your life. And if you ever hear one of your male co-workers making an inappropriate sexual comment to a female co-worker, think about how you would feel if he had said this to your mother, your wife, your sister, or your daughter. Then tell him to apologize to the victim of his insensitive remarks. She will be most likely be glad someone was there to intervene.
women have to be the initiators because the dudes can't see anything but their sex?
How is this modded "informative"?? Where is the information? I see an AC story with no names, places, or otherwise informative content--just a bullshit yarn that anyone with training in HR, management, or the law can see is exagerrated or made up entirely.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
This is not an issue. Where the HELL do you get this crap? How about posting something worth discussing?
There are deeper-rooted problems here. At one place of employment, I was told various things in sexual/regular harassment training.
#1 - It's up to the female to decide what sexual harassment is. If they feel you said hi in a sexually harassing way, that's what you did. There is no "judgement" of your action by an external panel or anything, it is completely in the female's hands.
I thought to myself - no problem - I'll just completely avoid the females at the workplace. This brings us to the second point.
#2 - It's considered harassment to avoid particular people at work. If they feel out-of-place, or rejected by you, then they have a valid harassment claim. Once again, it is at their discression, no outside panel reviews their "feelings".
#2 applies equally to men/women (although from what I've seen, women get the upper hand.) #1 SOLEY applies to women. They say it's equally biased to male/female, but that's ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. Women get away with all kinds of things, even when men report them they get told to quit being hyper-sensitive. It doesn't work that way the other way around. Guys get canned for saying goodbye before they leave. I've seen it happen.
I'm not even going to get into the "big picture" view concerning society as a whole, but the problem goes much further than simple workplace issues. It's deeply rooted in today's society.
I have a wonderful and, thus far, apparently foolproof system: I'm from another culture.
Them: "We think you interacted inappropriately with that female."
Me: "In my culture, that's entirely appropriate. Is this a race thing? Are you singling out my very respectful 'English' behavior as inappropriate in your American workplace?"
Them: "Oh, shit. We could get sued for that, couldn't we? Pretend we said nothing."
It's much like patent law. Companies patent stupid crap they don't really need to patent simply so that when the next company sues them, they have something they could counter sue over and they know they'll both agree to back off in exchange for shared patents.
As I am of a different race, so long as I'm basically polite, cases where fear-of-getting-sued prompts people to freak out over my being male and talking to females can be just as quickly quashed by their equally over inflated fear of an English employee suing over cultural insensitivity and racism.
99% of sexual harassment stupidity isn't motivated by actual lawsuits so much as fear of lawsuits. If I genuinely commit sexual harassment, I expect to get disciplined for it. On the other hand, if people want to freak out about possibilities, I'll give them other possibilities that are just as scary to push them back the other way.
Talk about being brought up with stereotypes, look at yourself.
:)
HR policies and corporate liability lawsuits have made all women persona-non-grata at the office in the 90s. Didn't you hear? It's the new age of sexual discrimination. Women are too much of a liability to be treated as human in the workplace, and as such they no longer will be treated as such. So it's blinders and monitors until further notice. Welcome to the 21st century's new objectification program.
This topic wasn't raised - the very notion that cliques are only men and only men hold the power of social groups is ridiculous, and detracts from the merit of the question.
As a woman in IT, i can't say I've had any trouble with male "cliques". I'm also surprised by those stories about sexual harassment accusations which is something I've never encountered or even heard of over here in Europe.
/msgs to do so as opposed to suffering the humiliation of having a girl tell them how to debug their C progams in public. Approximately the same thing happens in the workplace. The main problem with people not talking about your skills publicly is that, this way, you're getting little public credit for your achievements.
One thing that is true is that guys usually view their female co-workers as less competent. They go to great lengths to explain simple things to you over and over again as if they doubted your ability to comprehend basic technical matters. In general, males also tend to be over-helpful, trying to do things for you they assume to be too complicated for a woman. "This part is tricky, it needs to be written in assembley language, we'll give it to someone else" combined with a knowing smile isn't something most male programmers would hear very often.
My usual reaction to this is to turn down the entire contract offer.
On a positive note though, once you've worked together for some time, respect for your abilities does eventually turn in. However, it is rarely shown in public. It's more like <whisper>hey, you're good</whisper>. I'm a long time regular on various technical IRC channels, and while guys on those channels do seek my help with tricky problems, they mainly use private
Show some leg.
I never did anything special to make her feel welcome, nor should I have had to.
It's just sad that you feel that way about your lone female co-worker. I think this is a big part of the reason why more women do not go into science and engineering. If a new man had joined your crew, would you have made an effort to welcome him and help him become part of the team? If so, you should do the same for your female co-worker. Of course, if your idea of making a new co-worker feel welcome is taking him out to a strip club, then you've got problems. On the other hand, what's the harm in asking your lone female co-worker to join the rest of the crew for lunch or drinks after work so she can get to know everyone?
I don't know the details of the office environment where you were the lone man with 10 women co-workers, but it doesn't sound like a good place to work. Being surrounded by chatty, gossipy women who can't talk about anything other than shoes, nail polish, who their friends are dating, or baby pictures can be miserable even for other women. I often feel out of place at social events where I'm the only women there who works in a technical field, or the only woman who is not a housewife or does not have kids. I can sympathize with your feeling uncomfortable being the only man in that office. However, the tone of your post suggests you may have some general issues in dealing with women in a professional setting.
You should really think about whether or not you are treating your male co-workers differently from the female co-workers. Women just want to be treated with respect and fairness in the workplace. None of us want to be given special treatment just because we are women. Unfortunately, it sounds like you are going out of your way to ignore the women who work with you. You are illustrating the exact problem that the person who posted the original message is trying to overcome, and seem determined to perpetuate the exclusion of women from socialization with their co-workers in male-dominated environments.
1. Many (NOT ALL) IT guys are socially awkward. A female with techie skills being around them for more than mere moments is unfamiliar and scary. They will like you being around, probably fall head-over-heels in love with you if you comment that you like the top they are wearing today, and will generally be awkward around you.
2. The remainder of IT guys who do possess basic social skills will be wary. They know if they say the wrong thing around you and you are mean spirited then they don't have a chance fighting the peer and HR assault afterwards. When confronted with a situation like this, most people will just avoid the problem, by avoiding YOU.
3. Some of the IT guys will be working on the assumption that you are probably incompetent. Smarter IT people are often annoyed with incompetent people, but are disproportionately annoyed by female incompetent IT people.
4. A small number of IT guys will throw caution to the wind and hit on you because you are a novelty in their world. If you scorn their advances, they will try to save face by making you look like the bad guy (er... girl?).
Sucks huh?
What to do? Be aware of it. Don't complain about the sky being blue, it just is. Figure out where each person is coming from and react accordingly.
For group #1, chat with them. Show common interests and talk about geeky topics. Change the subject if it gets onto awkward attraction-based stuff. The first instant you get, invite as many of these people out for lunch/drinks at once as you can, together. Don't ever catch up with them on their own outside of work until they are comfortable with you in normal social situations. They will get the wrong idea, they will get hurt, and they will lash out.
For group #2, just say an off-colour joke, and swear once. As soon as you give the impression that you are not an uptight prude who will scream "sexual harassment" for saying "hi" to them, this group will love you. Be one of the guys and you will be one of the guys. You don't have to change anything you do, just show that you're not going to cost them their job.
For group #3, just be competent. Show your knowledge. The instant you show you've got brains you're sweet with this group. Don't humiliate anyone, but do show you've got a working brain. If someone talks down to you, do correct them. If you have an opinion and you're confident you're right, offer it. This group will test your knowledge. Be ready. You pass those tests, and they'll grudgingly accept you. Show you're brilliant and they'll worship the ground you walk on.
For group #4, avoid. Say that you're not really interested if they persist. This group will be the minority so mesh with the others and you'll be safe. Peer pressure will take care of them. Just remember that you don't have to be friends with everyone.
Expect to get hit on eventually. Say "I'm flattered, but no", change the subject immediately, and noone gets their pride wounded.
For starters, referring to them as girls and boys is not a good start. Shows an unprofessional bias on the part of the submitter.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
"what can a girl in IT do when she finds herself on the outside of those cliques of boy coworkers?"
;-)
One word; strip!
Libertas in infinitum
"The question is simple: what can a girl in IT do when she finds herself on the outside of those cliques of boy coworkers? Or inversely, what should groups of boys at work be doing to be more welcoming for that lone girl in the IT office?"
Simply, cross dressing!
Cross dressing is fun, cheap (go down to your local charity/thrift shop), provokes conversation. And best of all, it should be compleatly legal, and thus discriminatory if you get fired for doing it!
(Spelling, grammer? Fuck me dead with a large chook.)
I wank in the shower.
With a knife and a bit of artistry you could eliminate the gender issues. Of course, you'd have to teach your (formerly male) colleagues how to pee properly.
(ducks)
"Guys usually interact with others they feel comfortable with rather than explicitly ostracising others. "
That's how the worst high-school Heathers usually describe their own ostracism of others; they just aren't comfortable with the losers. Hell, it's how the British Raj and the East Coast WASP establishment usually described their chokehold on power: they just chose to interact with those "like us" rather than "not like us". Having this view of one's group doesn't prove anything about the group.
It does suggest that the group has enough power to not have to think about how power is divided, though. It's comfy to be the default case, like being IBM when "no-one was ever fired for buying IBM."
------
Incidentally, note that three of your four social topics (which I agree would work in most places) have not just techie content but I'm-aggressive content: they're useful for showing that the speaker is masculine-by-our-current-standards. If the social flow was just about proving how techie one was, pure science would be just as useful as a 'geek marker'. It isn't (we apparently think of scientists as asexual). Medical tech is pretty amazing, too, but doesn't have that locker-room flava.
In my kindly, forgiving moments, I assume that this sekret boyz club is due to pallid desk workers' worry over their own health and masculinity. When aggressive, I suspect that it's there exactly to make women "not like us", just as talk about polo and yachting can be used to shut newcomers out of the upper class.
One word: BLOWJOBS!
It can be even more challenging for a man to "break" a clique of women at the workplace.
If a woman wants to hang out with the guys after work, that's considered ok. But it's harder for a man who wants to join the girls.
The double standard rears its ugly head again!
-Michael
Proof-read the body, not the subject. Doh!
Okay, maybe Tom Duff doesn't deserve that, but that's the kind of crappy code that's not even worth looking at for more than 10 seconds for 21st century code running on a processor designed after 1990...
This is a total and utter red herring. Your gender is irrelevant. I've seen males and females not fitting in, because they didn't fit in. This is an issue of culture.
No, I'm actually serious.
Don't come off as 100% nice and friendly. Don't try and be kind and giving (off the bat). Be 80% rude, demanding, and heartless.
Once you've achieved that image, crack lots of jokes. About yourself, about others, about politicans, about whatever.
Honestly, the women I've made friends with in the workplace have taken this approach. The bitchiness immediately scares away lovesick puppies, but a good sense of self-deprecating humor will eliminate any barriers (bitchiness-based or gender-based) between yourself and your coworkers.
Obviously, this will require a thick skin, and furthermore, it requires a degree of self-consciousness, and an element of manipulation. I recommend reading The Art of Seduction. It's very important to establish a balance; you want people to be interested in hearing what you have to say, whether it be humourous, cruel, or serious. At the same time, a bit of evil makes it quite clear to all around you that you're not interested in love/sex.
Oh, and when you end up going out to drink with coworkers, leave before people get totally trashed (if they do that). Insenstive, sexual, cruel things come out of groups of drunk men, and no amount of threating/training/manipulating is going to change that. It's a part of many men's lower psyche that has simply not evolved out of the human brain yet, and large amounts of alcohol lower the sociological barriers surrounding this dark morass.
WhiteWolf666 an exBush supporter. All you new-school,compassionate,save the children Republicans can rot in hell
...and hang out with him. He won't be worried about harassment charges because his orientation makes such charges hard to bring, and you won't have to worry about him hitting on you. Of course don't hit on him or you might find yourself on the other side of the HR department.
I think the only way for you to break down the barriers is to sleep with all of your coworkers.
I'm in the opposite situation... I'm a science/technology teacher at middle school that has 44 teachers. Only seven are male. Fortunately, they accepted me pretty quickly (I have sisters, so it wasn't that hard to be "one of the girls"), and I've gotten to like being the only male around most of the time. Once I got used to it, it's a pretty good situation actually. Lots of dating advice from lots of big sisters...
...Just ask them what server they play on, then roll up a druid.
Simple, they should do nothing.
Equality is not about "affirmative action" or "special treatment". They should do exactly what they would do the the "lone guy in the it office" Which would be exactly nothing.
Women wanted equality, unfortunately the ridiculous laws they demanded make them a real threat to every male co-workers career. Its legally risky to even acknowledge them at work. Saying "Good Morning" in a freindly tone, or even making eye contact, can get you fired. It's ludicrous, but true.
Because of this risk, Women are a royal pain in the ass to work with as you never know when they are going to feel ignored or have a bad hair day, or PMS, or something and go running to HR with some made up story about some guy.
No, this hasn't happened to me, yet, but I have seen it happen to a good colleague, a normally ok woman simply had a bad hair day and complained. He got called to HR and just decided the damage was done already to his reputation, best to quit, the injustice of the whole situation really pissed me off. She got over her period or whatever and carried on like it was all ok, which was bullshit.
I concluded it was best to ignore female co-workers as much as possible, at least until the stupid laws that discriminate against men this way get changed. Which aint never gonna happen. Its simpler and safer to befreind and date women from outside of wherever you work. Let the ones where you work be lonely and feel ignored, so what, thats what bars are for!.
Women brought the (ignored and lonely at work) problem on themselves by demanding bizarre and discriminatory laws that effectively allow them to damage any mans career simply by lying.
Thats the real discrimination and prejudice, in my opinion. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned, and no one can trust any HR department to make a rational decision about a complaint, its always easier to fire the guy and appear to be politically correct.
So, why should any guy risk his livelihood this way?, its simpler to make freinds with and date women outside of work. It's also simpler to avoid hiring women into the group, as that also removes the risk. Certainly any woman with an "attitude" has got zero chance of getting hired into any post i can influence.
And no, I don't like it either, frankly this situation sucks as women are excellent at their jobs, especially in IT. But why increase the chances of getting fired?. Guys sure as hell didn't make up these stupid rules, but while they exist it's a matter of protecting our careers against a discriminatory and biased legal system.
IANAL, but usually the rationale for the criteria being set lower is that the criteria are not actually indicative of or required for the performance of the job and are often used to artificially discriminate. Generally this is true, companies set artificial minimum criteria for jobs which have no bearing on the job performance and they can (intentionally or unintentionally) cause discrimination. The minimum criteria bar isn't lower for affirmative action applicants, they are lower for everyone and additional non-discriminatory comparative criteria are supposed to be used. Under Affirmative Action, ties will generally go to the affirmative action applicant.
The reason affirmative action is broken is because companies are too afraid to really set any comparative criteria above the minimium critera (e.g., B.S. required, M.S. or equivalent experience preferred, PhD, a plus, just becomes B.S. required, equal opportunity employer) and the presense of job requirements tweaking by affirmative action advocates in HR departments generally discourage any over-qualified applicants (e.g, they won't hire me because I have PhD and they would think I'm too expensive or they are giving it away to someone else) or at least suggests that they are tailor making a position for a specific affirmative action candidate that already technically has the job and they are just going through formalities (and of course that happens many times).
Companies usually aren't very good at coming up with job hiring criteria anyhow (I remember all the ads during the dot-com boom for minimum 20years of Java coding experience, yeah, right). To expect a company to do this and still correctly interpret the law and spirit of affirmative action is just too high a bar (a sad state of affairs). Mostly, companies just chicken out and just lower the bar as far as they can and hire the first affirmative action candidate that walks through the door and then raises the bar after their imaginary quota is filled out of fear and goading by affirmative action advocates in their HR departments. Unfortunatly, this unspoken quota system does a disservice to everyone involved.
Hiring is generally a crap shoot anyways unless you are hiring someone you know (and that's called either neoptism or favoritism or just good-old-boy-ism). Sadly, it's one of those situations, where neither companies nor people can win without taking a risk, and the lawyers and affirmative action advocates have taking all the fun out of risk by making the punishment so high that there's no joy in mudville.
There's no requirement that they accept you, much less take you into their clique. Get some friends outside of work and do your own thing.
too bad - it's a good company from a stockholder's perspective.
>what can a girl in IT do when she finds herself on the outside of those cliques of boy coworkers?
Stand up to pee
My tip? If you're a guy working in a group with all guys and one female, DON'T use your meeting time to show your groupmates some porn you thought was "really awesome." I wish I could say I was joking, but this actually happened to me (the only saving grace is that this happened when I was still in school, not at work, but still).
Fitting in when you're a girl in an all-male environment can be tougher than a lot of guys would think, especially if you're not used to being "one of the guys." In my experience, it's easier to be "one of the group" if you eat lunch with your co-workers or go to happy hour with them. If they don't invite you directly but you hear them talking about it, then fish for an invitation. Be friendly and social.
The bonus is that there usually are other girls present at happy hour unless it's just your group going, so you don't get that weird "I'm the only girl here and they're all acting weird because of me" feeling. Be prepared that you may have to subtly move the topic of conversation away from sports.
Guys: be friendly to the new hires, whether they be female or male. Despite what you may think, you can say "hi" to your female co-workers without quaking in fear of a sexual harassment lawsuit. Just stay away from the porn, and you're good.
The first clique you have to break are the racial cliques. Then, you'll be able to break the gender cliques, because chances are the CEO is a white male.
Cliques are difficult to break, it's still possible to break them, but this requires that people start their own tribes, their own cliques, and not base them on gender, race, or any appearance. When are we going to have character cliques?
>I've beaten off clueless geeks once or twice before, and I haven't found a good way to do it.
Slowly, with baby oil.
BWAHAHAHAHhahahahaha couldn't resist.
The secret of success for a woman in the workplace is really very simple. Just remember: When you are at work, you are not a woman, you are an *employee*. And those guys over there? They're not really guys. They're employees too.
That's it.
If someone snubs you, assume that it has something to do with how you behave, not your sex. If you get passed over for a promotion, assume that it has something to do with your performance, not your sex. Never allow yourself the luxury of thinking that you've bumped up against some "glass ceiling." If you're not invited to hang out with the others, assume that it has something to do with how you've come across to them, not your sex.
Don't believe anyone who tells you that you need to talk in sports metaphors, or any of that $99 seminar garbage.
If you're in an organization that has special programs to help women "succeed in the workplace," you need to know that they are the kiss of death. My own workplace has special "mentoring" programs for women. They have a "leadership development institute" that is meant to help women "break into" management. Women who complete this program are given preference when the organization is hiring managers. Would you like to guess how much esteem these women have among their male counterparts? Among the men who report to them? They might as well tie a millstone around your neck and toss you into the ocean, because most of the guys you work with consider such programs to be fluff, and won't take you seriously if you participate in them. For crying out loud, they even have book clubs where women read books and talk about "the special challenges of being a woman in the workplace." These are *not* the sort of thing that you want to do if you want to be taken seriously in the workplace.
Most guys will tell you that women are far more sex-aware than men are. I once had a female manager, in a job interview, ask me if I "would have a problem reporting to a woman." That immediately told me that I was suspect as a result of my sex, and that anything that I did would be interpreted through the prism of "gender politics." Imagine if a male interviewer had asked a female applicant anything so obviously sex-oriented.
Your question reflects a 1960s mindset. Welcome to 2006.
At WB we have hired typically very junior female IT workers and have been starting them at senior salaries and titles. This is the WB direction and helps to meet our diversity goals.
What I am seeing happen in more than half the cases of hiring females in IT jobs they are just not capable of doing what is asked because they were given positions that were beyond their abilities. There are long periods of productivity lost due to training when hiring a qualified person would have been the right choice for the company.
My IT department actually has an awful lot of women working in it. Most of the upper management is women. And part of it is that the upper management has a knee-jerk reaction to there not being a lot of women in IT, so they are more likely to higher women overall. Actually, at one point, when we were hiring additional student workers (I work at a University), we were told point blank that if any women applied we were to hire them, even if they weren't qualified.
Because it shouldn't be. Do your thing, be yourself. Computer nerditry is predominantly male, but being a geek is a gender-neutral lifestyle. There will always be some work environments that are better able to handle the "not like us" members of the team, whether gender-wise, or age-wise, or race-wise. What i've seen, though, is that teams that treat women poorly treat almost everyone poorly, and it's usually a sign to get the hell out.
It's not like there is some magic bullet for female geeks. A woman in IT may just as likely be a fish out of water with the Cosmo-reading stereotype that is outlined by our esteemed cohorts here, and totally able to relate to the dorkiness of whatever band of computer misfits might be around. It's not like every woman born onto this planet is replete with all of the social graces just because she's female. So, be a dork. Or dorque.
If you're looking for other women in computer-related fields to chat with, try Systers, Linuxchix, search meetup, whatever. Practice talking to other tech people like colleagues, regardless of gender, and it will become easier to interact with your coworkers. And there are thousands of conversation topics for IT people that have nothing to do with ribaldry or innuendo. Don't become the office cruise director, the instigator of dumb things like "let's celebrate birthdays each month", or crochet cozies for the headsets (unless they're amigurumi). I'm guessing those sorts of things don't come naturally to you anyway. I'd want to punch someone who wanted to make a thing out of celebrating birthdays and it showed up on my calendar. Spontaneous confectionary combustion is another matter.
For the posters here who complain about being afraid of being hauled to HR for naughty jokes, you should be. It's a workplace, not a locker room. Remember the locker room? Where the football player peed on you and laughed? Yeah. Keep your lame jokes for some other time.
So, essentially, meet them halfway. Be friendly, start conversations, don't judge their social shortcomings. Don't act like a victim, and don't take any crap either. It's a big world out there, there are a lot of jobs, there are a lot of assholes, and there are a lot of good people. The good ones will make you want to stay at a job that essentially sucks and the assholes will drive you out of your dream job. The trick is to know which is which, and not lose sight of what got you into IT in the first place. One batch of self-involved coworkers does not a career make.
Good luck
--mandi
my birthday is in october. i put it on your calendar
People smell fear.
If you are nervous, you project, subconsciously, the message that you think you're doing something inappropriate. Other people, also subconsciously, hear that message. There's a hint of sweat on the palms or stutter in the speech that you might not be conscious of, but which, if you're nervous, you will undoubtedly have.
If you're nervous, guys, she'll get nervous, and that's when the HR-calling trigger finger gets itchy. If instead you are relaxed, she will be relaxed. Attitudes are contagious.
(This applies everywhere! Cop pull you over? In a job interview? Everybody runs on instinct!)
I'm making fun of IT guys notorious juvenile humor and lack of tact with the ladies. I am not seriously suggesting you use these aweful jokes to impress your female co-workers. So don't sue me when you get fired for sexual harassment. Just saying...
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Then again maybe some men need to move the center of their attention from their groin to their brain.
It's funny how much I hear this from women who have no idea what it's like to be men. Did you know that, unlike you who become sex-craving (to be frank but polite about it) during a biological cycle or due to emotional stimuli, men's hormones flow all the time. Many of us would really prefer our eyes not be drawn away by the sight of a woman's torso, but that's the way our biology works. We're programmed to seek out and recognize possible mates. We only view women as sex objects if they appear to want us to view them that way, or if we truly are unusually chauvinistic.
Now however, I shall turn the onus back upon you. Dress to work, not to arouse! If you don't, you have no excuse with which to blame us for our captivity to biology. How can you dress for work? I have a simple heuristic definition for you: if the average male can look at you without losing his concentration to your body or becoming sexually aroused, you're decent. No need for ankle-length dresses or burquas.
I've heard women say that showing cleavage is just what makes them comfortable. I for one call that feminine wankage and won't put up with it. I shouldn't be looking at your body, because it shouldn't be exposed.
1) This isn't highschool, and the group you're talking about isn't a bunch of genders, its a bunch of people. The sooner you stop generalizing, and start thinking about the individuals, the better. Some people may be determined to not like your race, creed, gender, sex, politics, religion, music, hairstyle, clothes, body piercing, tatoos, choice of recreational drugs, etc. It isn't your job to change those people. As a professional, you can reasonably expect people to work with you, but they don't have to like you.
The again, you may find some lifelong friends within the stereotypical introverted group of social IT miscreants. You're likely to spend more time with them than with your S.O. anyway.
2) Be thouroughly competent at something. Preferrably something three quarters of the group isn't already good at. If there is a unavoidable conflict on skill A, and you're the more versatile person of the two, consider building up skill B. Some people will assume you got the job in preference to someone more capable, but less diverse. Make sure they're not right.
3) No matter how personable, charming, or charismatic you are, mooching time and energy from everyone in the group isn't an option. People will go to lengths to help you, but they won't like you for it.
4) Don't make a semi-public phone call to your girlfriend every monday at lunch time, to talk about how your underwear-model boyfriend banged you so much over the weekend that you have a bladder infection. One, because it just TMI. Two, just because you can get laid any given weekend, doesn't mean that everyone else can. Even if the marrieds are having just as much sex as you are, they may be liking it less.
5) The same goes for politics and religion. Unless your name is Jessica Hawn, or Monica Lewinsky, keep that shit to yourself.
6) Somewhere in your organization, there is typically a butch CIO or IT director that periodically makes life hell for half the floor. Don't become fast public friends with this person just cause you both have tits. (Or if you'd prefer to get into managment, do it. But be ready for every hardcore geek to hate and silently sabotage you for it.) The same applies to department heads from the other business units.
7) Find some de-sexualized physical expression you're comfortable with. If you or someone on your team does something kick-ass, then you need a high-five, fist bump, boo-yah yell, happy dance, or something to let everyone know that you're celebrating with them. The fact that impersonal contact is not a big deal will help keep you from being a sex goddess in everyones minds. Limp handshakes are right out.
8) If you're a clothes horse, please occasionally wear something as plain and frugal as the median. People gradually get resentful if its obvious you spend two people's income on clothes.
9)If you do go out with the group, and the group orders a pizza, eat a freaking slice. Save the salad for sometime when you eat with the salad eaters. And if you're not alchohol averse, drink half a light beer, it won't kill you. If you want a cosmo, drink it as the second drink.
> I have no idea where you guys work, but I am having serious trouble believing any of those stories.
...
I worked as a clerk for a store that sells ice cream. In other words, minimum wage-ville.
We worked in groups of two, or at most three (only on busy weekends). One of my coworkers was female, and also pregnant. We worked in a small space behind a counter and constantly had to run back and forth to serve customers. Apparently I managed to brush against said coworker or bump into her. I'm not honestly sure when I did this, which tells me that I couldn't have ever bumped into her very hard. However, I still got brought in for a meeting with the manager and it was treated as "sexual harassment"
Just in case you're thinking that I somehow planned this or something, please know that I'm pretty much the quintessential Slashdot geek. That is, I'm straight, have never kissed a girl, and would have to stretch to come up with any interaction that could rightfully be considered a real date. I avoided every school dance, especially the senior prom. I have never asked anyone on a date, ever. I have few, if any, close friends--I've lost touch with most everyone since moving. I live with, and care for, my Grandmother. I have no social life to speak of. I avoid looking at porn or even rude jokes, although I make no claims of perfection. I naturally avoid nearly every social situation possible. I go through the drive-thru and eat my meals in the car. I haven't had a birthday party in years because I never tell anyone when it is. Basically, you wouldn't have any trouble ignoring me unless for some reason you cared that I existed. And I'm perfectly happy with my life; I don't mind being a nobody.
Given that I do nothing even remotely sexual most of the time and that I was still brought in on "sexual harassment" you have to admit that there's a bit too much paranoia over it out there. I know that there are good reasons for the laws, but companies are completely risk-averse and they would rather fire you than take any chance at all.
1) Have something good, mildy interesting, and not controversial to say about each of the members of your group. "This is Brian, he has two young children, his hobby is sailing; he is our manager." "This is Steve. He is an accomplished latin-guitar player, and is the senior admin on our team." "This is Joy. She is an avid hiker, recently adopted a Welsh Corgi, and is in desktop support." This kind of banter leaves the new person some clues of what they can talk about in later conversations.
2) Educate youself on the shit-stupid phrases our language is mined with. Use "guidelines" intead of "rules of thumb", etc. Read a bit about languages, cultures and the like. People are much less uncomfortable when you have a rough idea where they are coming form.
3) Preconceptions about poeple are usually wrong, and are often less interesting than reality. You're better off without them.
4) If things went well, say something. "You did an excellent job on this." "We have a great team." "You rock." etc.
5) In my experience, there are still appropriate times and ways to say: "I like your dress." or "Those shoes are cool." or "I like your new haircut." or "You look sharp in that suit." If you're genuine, people will know you're not being a prick.
6) Misery loves company. If you happen to get an IT-gal in your group, keep the door open for a second. People play off of each others strengths, and people who are less isolated do better. This isn't survivor, you won't end up with an axis of evil or anything.
7) Help people outside of the old boys network. Doing so will make you flexible, build personal networks, and make for a strong position. And when unimaginative managers go looking for poeple to sack, you won't fit an easy category. If you do get sacked, you'll be in better shape to work a diverse customer base as a contractor.
8) Don't be afraid to work with a hottie. In a week you'll know at least one thing you hate about them, and then they won't intimidate you anymore. Besides, if they're on your side of the table, the people on the other side will be distracted and easier to maneuver.
9) If you don't know the gender of a name, ask a third party ahead of time.
10) Don't make assumptions about wanting, having, being able to have, or liking children. Not everyone wants to, is, is able to be, or likes being a breeder.
I say Bullshit. You don't want to be accused of sexual harrasment? More like you're afraid of the embarassment of being rejected. Grow a fucking pair. Everybody's telling you don't do this, don't do that. And you obey. You listen. Is it making you happy?
I say fuck that. I say I do whatever I feel like, whenever I feel like it, all the time. You gonna get fired if you hit on some hot blonde? They gonna ostracize you? You gonna be disappeared? Instead of you being afraid of everyone, they should be afraid of you.
As for you lone IT girl.
Are you hot? Didn't think so. You're of no use to me or anyone else. "Please help me everyone! I don't know how to make friends." You're pathetic. If you did a little exercise, and dyed your hair blonde maybe people would notice you. But you can't. That's why you are who you are. But hey, these people that you want to be friends with, they're probably assholes anyway. Don't sweat it.
Well, a good start would be using "conversely" when it's what you mean. If you can't be bothered to say what you mean, none of the geeks with grammar nazi tendencies will warm up to you. ;-)
I said ONLY, but of course it can be read "mainly". Either way.
Realize how interactions work in male-dominated society. Read up on the Alpha-male, the Omega-male, and such. Basically, if you can demonstrate that you are in some way better than "the guys" they will accept and respect you. This doesn't have to be work related. As a bonus you get to boss them around. Beware that they might like it.
I remember a female co-worker of mine who was having trouble adjusting to the team when she joined. We went go-karting for a teamwide morale event. She made it to the final round, out-driving most everyone there. She didn't win the go kart race but she did run one guy into the wall during the final lap as he tried to overtake her. I'll never forget the look on his face, and after that it was hard to not like her. Also it gave the geeks some topic of conversation which was neutral enough to not be misconstrued.
Understand what constitutes respect among team members and do it. Usually this is just as simple as excelling at your job, but since you are interested in making an extra effort, find out what else the guys are into that you (that you can stomach) and meet them on their own terms. Beware after hours video-gaming is sacred unless you have done some at-home practice first.
Many of us geek guys are actually reasonably adjusted so this may be overkill. Just give us a chance.
I initiate conversations, take a no-shit stance when meeting someone I haven't met before, and have no problem calling department meeting. I can talk sports when the topic's not work, and throw out bitingly sarcastic remarks with the best of 'em. In other words, I don't act like a meek little girl standing in a corner with my toes pointed inward all shy and waiting to be noticed. I basically act like a more feminine version of one of the guys without sacrificing my femininity. I dress very girly and am a lady in manners, though more masculine in mannerisms. It's a balancing act all but perfected by years of growing up in dresses while spending a lot of time with a dad who coached sports and played baseball himself and a brother who played sports, as well as studying martial arts with a group of guys. I am not afraid of guys (unless I'm attracted to him, in which case I'm the biggest wuss in the world). Simply being timid is probably the best way to become the one overlooked. Confidence gets you in the club.
It's a girl!
Working in a UK IT office as the only woman and as an out lesbian :-) ). However once they saw that I
hasn't caused any problems at all and the guys seem to be able to
cope just fine. I think that is was slightly awkward at first but then
I'm cute and so is my partner ('natch
was competent, could make the odd IT related joke and could carry my
own weight of work they relaxed.
I think they sometimes they get a little uncomfortable when it gets a
bit girlie when she phones, but hey. I was the first to suggest going
to the pub after work which did help to brake the ice, and since I've
attended the odd BBQ with my partner.
It definitely helps to brake the ice yourself and not wait the men,
they IMHE just can't handle those types of situations.
Most women in IT realize they are, in fact, female, but that doesn't mean they want to be treated any differently than your average civilized guy. If you're all going down to the pub to catch Babylon 5 reruns, just say, "Hey Cindy, we're all going down to Moe's Tavern to catch Babylon 5 reruns and have some chili fries. You're welcome to join us if you want, and if not, that's cool too." That is very unlikely to be construed as harrassment.
Conversely, if a woman is outside of a group and wants in, she could strike up conversations about stuff on the desks ("Neat lightsaber! Reminds me of that battle in Episode 99 where Yoda's ghost form kicks Darth Luke's butt. Say, which was your favorite Star Wars movie?") or tattoos ("What made you decide on Cartman over Stan? And why in $diety's name did they decide to REALLY kill off Kenny?") or T-shirts or books ("Sweet! They came out with the 9th book in the Chronicles of Foreverland? How is it, so far? Is it better than 'Shadow-stalker's Journey' or should I just save my money for the new Neal Stephenson novel?" or "Cool Penny Arcade shirt, man. I really like the Armadeaddon storyline, but they're all pretty funny in their own way.") or talk about your hardware at home ("Well, the serious gamer really wants a Zorchware, of course, 'cause the rendering is superior with their algorythms, but I'm using ZilchCo's knockoff until I can afford the Zorchware pricing. I think it works just as well for Zombie Stompers but I wouldn't want to try Neverwarriors with the ZilchCo. The elves tend to lose their ears when you run with the ZC-12, unfortunately!").
So, ultimately companies may need to analyse which is cheaper/less detrimental, sexual harassment suits or discrimination suits. Leading to many companies not hiring women at all if they find the cost/benefit analysis makes harassment suits too expensive, or that the threat of harassment suits scares away the best candidates (male or female) while also making a bad working environment for EVERYONE. This legal environment is not helpful to women at all
I've worked it IT for more than 10 years as a developer and team lead and have had a range of different experiences based on the job, very much influenced by the level of social competence amonst my co-workers. In most cases, I've had no problems. In some cases my male co-workers would socialise together and never ask me along. I agree with previous posters that for men this doesn't necessary mean that they are deliberately excluding you - it can mean that it didn't occur to them to ask you or that they were scared to. But it takes some time to learn that and not be hurt by it, because from a female perspective it can look like deliberate exclusion. In one case, I did have a bad experience with a real clique formed by the rest of my team (all-male). They were already friends before I arrived and didn't take too kindly to my presence in spite of my efforts. This extended to my boss (head of the clique) not giving me credit for work I had done well, never giving me good projects, etc. I later moved to a team with a fantastically competent female lead, the best boss I have had, and shortly afterwards was promoted to a lead myself. I think that as the lone female you do have to make an effort as sometimes your male colleagues just don't know how to treat you, especially if they are young and you are the first woman they have worked with. But in some environments you just have to accept that you are never going to really socialise with your co-workers, for whatever reasons, and just settle for at best a cordial professional relationship. This sometimes by choice as even though my job is technical and I enjoy it I don't necessarily want to spend my downtime talking about Linux. In summary, being an outsider is always difficult and as a female engineer you will have to deal with it to some degree and make an effort with your co-workers. It would be nice though if all the responsibility for integrating into a new group of male co-workers didn't always lie with the new girl.
If it was a bloke (whether the group is male or female), there wouldn't be a need to work it out: you'd just ask. However, sexual harrasment means that you're told to *think* whether you can offend someone (and if you look hard enough, you'll find offence). So it's easier not to bother.
...when a society promotes job performance as an almost absolute value over every other aspect of life. First, you de-humanize your working environment with over-regulation about what people are and are not supposed to do - mostly in order to attain performance goals - then, when people start breaking over pressure and overreact or start abusing other people, you try to cure these symptomps with even more regulation.
I live in Europe, and I always get amazed by some cultural differences between Europe and US people. You sometimes seem to be overreacting, get extremely sensitive, or taking extreme approaches at several subjects (on the other hand, I also understand that we Europeans may seem to US people as lazy and indifferent).
Our societies were mostly constructed around our basic needs - and these involve amongst others companionship, friendship, creativity, love, sex, survival, laziness, emotional and physical security, etc etc. Try to severely fiddle with these needs and you GOT to have problems.
In *every* close man-woman relationship, there exists an underlying erotic/sexual aspects, whether it is expressed or not (you get these even in same-gender relationships, though we mostly suppress them). We are just built by nature to like each other, and this is crucial for human survival. You are going to eventually like a boy, or girl, usually a multitude of boys or girls, and you have the need to express that. And, conversely, you also have the need to be admired.
When you start over-reacting trying to show your affection, or being over-sensitive to the affectionate reactions of other people, and try to externally regulate these over-sensitivities rather than trying to internally manage your feelings and emotions, you get the mess you Americans are currently in with sexual harrasment practices.
Here in the other side of the Atlantic, we seem to get a more relaxed approach on these subjects. I work on a usual IT shop - mostly males with a relatively small number of females. Our interactions are mostly free. You get the occassional chat with everybody. You get to hear or tell jokes, even tasteless ones. We sometimes go for lunch all together or in small groups. You get to invite somebody out or get invited. You sometimes comment the outlook of others, or get commented at, positively or negatively.
You even get to have a light flirting sometimes, and that is mostly regarded as normal from both sides. If you try to break the barrier of what the other person considers annoying, you get politely reminded of that, directly or indirectly, and this is sufficient for the vast majority of people. When you start to feel harrased by others, you get to show them just that, and most people stop being annoying. There is no need for external regulation or written-down practices for human interaction.
People often form friendship relations in workplaces, and they manage them so they don't heavily interact with their jobs. The occassional mishappen is always there, but that's life. It's usually a bad move to have romantic or sexual relationships with coworkers, but people even have these with no serious problems - it only gets really bad when you break up and still have to interact with your ex at work, but people sometimes successfuly manage even that.
On the other side, real sexual harrasment can happen, and it sometimes happens. Sometimes people abuse their position or power to gain advantage over others (sexual, monetary, or whatever). This is ofcourse considered wrongful, and gets dealt with. The occassional wrongdoer sometimes gets away with it (as it happens sometimes with all wrong-doing or illegal behaviour, but, again, that's life).
in the workplace. Either do as you are or leave and find a place that will see your extra work as yours. Your problem with the credit being taken is an easy, simple and obvious scenario and is really just an example of an effing stupid management culture. Men get the same problem because they aren't married, or the wrong race or don't suck up or some other reason. The workforce you have are just assholes and it isn't because you're a woman but because you don't fit. OK, the not fitting is the woman issue, but other groups would treat an Indian male the same or single 40-year-old.
Generally male geeks are intimidated by females. No, it doesn't make sense. Even if they are rude and talk down to you, it's because they are scared by what is different. I do have some suggestions. -Talk about this one time when your party ran the Temple of Elemental evil with no Fighter. -Proclaim that since you got your 3rd horde alt to level 60 you just really are bored with the server you are on. -Build an insane computer that is housed in one of those old Master cheif displays. Bonus points if you can modify the guns to "shoot" in time with keystrokes on your keyboard. I know this sounds utterly insane. But part of the work environment is bonding with your coworkers so that you truly become part of the team. Executives use golf, HR uses cake and Ice cream socials, Warehosue workers use bear and bitching about executives. Geeks use Geek activities. Be yourself and be honest. Good luck.
What's it to do with Americans? You've never heard anything more stupid? Well, I am in the UK, and you can hear it from me too : Men in many workplaces are so worried [...] that we ignore women and avoid eye contact.
Not for legal reasons here so much, but social ones. Western women have become so arrogant, and are so accustomed to the luxury of being out-numbered by men in general society, that they will react to any approach at work (platonic or otherwise) with contempt at best and a hand-bagging at worst. Unless you happen to have the looks and charm of at least Pierce Brosnan, or the entertainment value of at least Jasper Carrot.
Btw, what are "normal people"? Like you, I suppose.
I've never really had a problem - but then, I'm *not* politically correct.
:) thought it was a "woman's job" to do menial tasks such as make the coffee for the rest of us, despite the fact that their job description was just the same as theirs. I pointed out that *I* made the coffee when it was my turn, I also treated the females exactly the same as I did the males (I *really* don't care), so what was their excuse? They decided to do their share of coffee duty. (OK, saying that the boss should make their coffee, but not the other way round is not a good career move).
:-(
I run two companies; one a computer consultancy and the other is a Biotech research lab (don't ask). Both of them have a mix of male and female (ratio ~ 1:1 and 6:4). My recruitment policy is very simple - "Can you do the job?". I don't care what colour you are, what race you are, what your religion is, what your sexual orientation is, what sex you are, etc. I tell my staff that when they're on the job they're Engineers/Scientists/Whatever - NOT male/female or jewish/christian/muslim or any other thing. And I expect them to behave like professionals. This means I *do* care about friction in the workplace and I enforce the professional approach.
A trivial (but good) example was the issue of who made the coffee. In the early days of the computer consultancy, some males of a "certain ethnic background"
Others have mentioned that going to the bar together is good for team spirit - and so it is! There isn't any problem when the boss says "Time to close up shop. Who wants to go to the pub? I'm buying the first round." And off we went. BTW; in the pub (bar) I'm not the boss anymore.
We have a good, friendly working environment. We don't need nosey, fanatical agencies with incomprehensible (and unworkable) agendas to help us work together. We do that ourselves quite nicely, thank you. All it takes is strong leadership (not just me) and peer pressure to say what is out of line. We're not perfect - the usual rivalries arise, but they don't destroy the team spirit.
It's not "sterile" either. A few years ago two of my employees got married and we were all invited to the wedding. I wasn't asked to be the Best Man though
I always like to leave the option open for any person to join our group at the pub, but I don't ask directly by saying things like "just to let you know, we are all going down to the pub for a few drinks; it should be fun since we leave an open invitation for anyone to join us". Of all the companies I have work for, even the most stringent sexual harrasment policy wouldn't be effective against that. How can you be sexually harrassing someone when you have an open invitation to everyone in the company? Am I guilty of sexually harrassing every employee at once?
I don't mean to sound cold and cynical - but I am, so that's the way it comes out.
I have been the only woman many times in an IT department. You learn to talk sports (guy talk) and not take offense at things that are not sexual harassment.
But quite a few of these answers show why there is sexual harrasment rules.
Treating any co-worker like a person is a good start. You don't have to be a jerk.
An easy way to think about what you are saying is would you say this to your Mother or Grandmother and not get your mouth washed out with soap? Or how would you feel if someone said that to your girlfriend or boyfriend or your mother?
As a manager, I found the perfect solution. Only hire fugly ogre-like women with thick ankles. It makes for a very scary but productive environment.
What should the girl do who is not able to fit into the gender cliques? QUIT. Leave the workplace to go home and cook and clean. Make sure the meals are nice and hot before your man gets home. If your not married, then get a nice secretary job to support yourself. Some man always wants his faxes printed and handed to him by someone else. You should also learn how to properly screen a mans calls so that he is not interrupted when trying to do important work. It should be a woman to do that. What can the guys do to help the new IT girl? I'd suggest they be mean and cruel by making statements referring to where the kitchen or cleaning supplies are located in the building. If IT issues arise, just say "Oh, I'll get that, we don't want to confuse the little lady with technical stuff". Make her feal unwelcome. As long as there is the opposite sex in the workplace, she will always envy the mans corporate position. With having a woman in the workplace you will not be able to make comments about other women. You will not be able to have pictures of naked chicks or ones of them displaying the finest of shoelace bikini's. The women will also bring thier lies and gossip that no one really cares about. I also know that women ask for opinions and never like the answers they get. Women will also complain about drinking on the job. They don't think it is professional. Remember to articulate. A good four letter work or extremely foul phrase will keep them away from your desk/office/you, and you will be able to enjoy a productive day. If you want to ruin a good workplace, keep her around. If you want a ruined workplace to get better, help them make the decision to quit (it also aides in women not recieving unemployment).
Or really just Drinking. Simple.
There's no "i" in team but there is a "u" in slum.
quite right ...
and use CVS so no bloke will be able to put the blame on the cute-head for a screwed release.
It can be a little daunting initially, but that (at least for me) has been more because I'm starting a new job rather than the gender of my co-workers. Also don't forget you have the novelty factor, use it wisely as it does wear off! :)
My main bug-bear was I wanted to be treated as an equal rather than special treatment just because I was a girl like when boxes of servers had to be carried or placed in the racks. It was sweet of the guys to offer to do it for me, but I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself & after a while it just became annoying. :)
The easiest way I found of dealing with this is to spend a day or two just listening to the general office chat that goes on & try to raise a topic/join in the chat with a few comments (don't forget to give as good as you get), duck out for a cup of tea or cigarette when someone else is doing it to initiate a quick chat about something social or work related.
Either invite or accept an invite to the pub and puh-lease guys email an invite if you're that worried about sexual harrassment claims, but I think you'll find the majority of women are reasonable. Personally I like a bit of banter round the office, it makes working a lot more fun.
Other than that just be good at what you do. If you don't know something don't just go running to the lads, research the problem, take it as far as you can go then, unless it's urgent, while on a break (ie when it won't interfere with their work) say I have this issue, I've done this, this & this, but that hasn't fixed it. I've checked these sites/areas, but am still unable to find a fix, do you have any ideas on where else I can go? That will earn you respect because at least you tried first & you're not asking them to do your job you're asking them to point you in the right direction.
As ever the best way to deal with men is to flatter their ego so even if they are talking about paint drying try to look like you're taking an interest. ;)
OMFG! Do you guys ever bother to listen to yourselves?
Some of the comments in this thread have been helpful and interesting, but the level of misogyny is shocking.
I am probably more introverted than most of the people around here, and that is really saying something. As such, I have zero prospects for getting a date. I will live, grow old, and die alone. I would like nothing more to have a wife and kids but that does not appear to be an option. Those aspects of life which other people seemingly take for granted are read-only for me.
That said, I do not fear, loathe or hate women the way some of you guys seem to. Women are indeed different from men. However they are not an alien species, nor are they infected with cooties. All this talk of feminazis and suggestions that all women are manipulative and would not hestitate to use bogus sexual harassment claims to get ahead is truly offensive.
We are all adults here (biologically, if not emotionally) and some of you guys need to start acting like ones. (Queue obligatory you must be new here comments). We have all got mothers , grandmothers, sisters, aunts and cousins who are female. Unless your family is truly dysfunctional, I doubt that you would claim that all of your female relatives are scheming, manipulative feminazis. As such, I find it hard to understand how you can generalize the behaviour of a few individuals to an entire group.
Gents, the office is not a locker room. We are supposed to be professionals and pr0n, inappropriate comments and behaviour have no place in a professional environment. The server room is not a private tree-house with a "no girls allowed" sign on the front door either.
I have found that if you treat people with the same degree of politeness and respect that you would like to be shown, they will respond accordingly. As a very shy person, it takes a long time for me to get to know and trust strangers to the point that I can be friendly with them, but I can always be polite. Good manners cost me nothing at all, and people tend to respond in kind.
Some of the misogynist comments are certainly attempts a humour or overt flamebait, but I get the impression that some of you are serious. You are giving fellow nerds a bad reputation.
I cannot get a date because I am socially inept, but I can take some solace that I am in better shape than those of you who fear and hate women.
(BTW - I posted this anonymously because I moderated some comments in this thread)
It is a relief to know I'm not the only one! ;) I also find I have more in common with men I just can't get interested in coversations about curtains as for shopping I hate it! Now talk to me about the court cases surrounding SCO & Linux at the moment, motor racing, the lastest gadget, games etc & I'm interested.
I have been the only female in an IT department for some time in the past & to be honnest the parent has hit the nail on the head. Sexual harrassment doesn't even cross my mind, in fact I prefere a bit of banter & a laugh round the office it makes the whole day a lot more enjoyable & if a guy did push it too far I would feel comfortable enough to let them know without complaint or being nasty.
As for actually integrating into the group generally email an invite round for people to join you for lunch, earn their respect by trying to work issues out on your own. If you become truly stuck tell them what you have done & ask them to point you in the right direction rather than for the answer (9 times out of 10 they'll give you the answer anyway).
everyone just takes a turn at it
once you've got money and power,
the only thing left is screwin
Seriously, who cares? Get your job done, and go home and socialize with your friends who exist outside the office. I don't understand this whole trend of people wanting to be buddies with everyone at work. It causes a decrease in productivity, and causes employees to worry about crap that they shouldn't be worrying about (ie, how to socialize better with their opposite-sex co-workers).
Its silly really. No I'm not management, I am 100% techie, I sit in a dark corner cubicle like all the rest of you. I often times have co-workers asking me to play cards at lunch, to go outside and chit-chat about mindless pointless stuff that has no meaning or relevance to work. I tried to play along in the past, going and chatting on "breaks" outside, playing cards at lunchtime, etc. All I found is that it wastes time, time which I could be spending getting my work done so I don't have to work until 9pm that night.
Save socializing for social environments. At work, do whatever you can to make management notice how much better you are than the group of other-gender techies so you can get a promotion, and be their manager.
In my department we have a bunch of hot women, and they're always hanging out around me. They're started to tell me dirty jokes when they're with me. I suspect most of them want to have my children.
My resolve is beginning to crumble.... HELP!
This is probably going to get lost in the jokes and jibes, but I have honest and serious advice from someone who's been on the opposite side of that (the only guy in an all-female department), and now in a department with a few women but mostly guys.
First, don't try too hard. Just be yourself. Honestly, out of the two women in my directly interfacing departments, one of them fits in well with the guys because she's just herself. She doesn't put on airs and graces, doesn't pretend to be better than the guys... but also doesn't go out of her way to be one of the guys either. The other tries to be one of the guys, and as a result she actually ends up being excluded from the guys going out to lunch because she's become somewhat branded as "the office bike". Maybe that's just because she joins in with a lot of the bawdy jokes, maybe that's just her personality in general coming through. But to be honest I like hanging out with her sometimes... but her personality can grate quickly.
A lot of the problem of women joining in with guys is actually a mindset that's encouraged by the places we work. Sexism didn't disappear; it just changed form. Today's American workplace is an incredibly sexist place. All of these classes about "tolerance" and "working well with the opposite sex"... not to mention the constant reminders to avoid "sexist jokes" and "sexist remarks" in the office space just continue to remind everyone that we're different. That's a bunch of horse hockey in my opinion; we're all human and most women I know outside of work enjoy a good joke even at their own gender's expense... just so long as it doesn't go too far. The attitudes that are forced onto us at work just serve to reinforce the differences between the genders and thus reinforce that we should all view the opposite sex as a foreign country. I'd say the larger the corporation, the worse it is because they're so afraid of lawsuits that they become reactionary and thus as I mentioned earlier constantly reinforce the idea of difference.
Sure, women and men are different... but we're all still human. Until we can get out of the mindset that we're all different countries that need to be treated differently we'll never get away from the sexism that I see every day. As I said, it's still there; we're still living in 1950... just the form has changed. It's more covert than overt, but it's definitely there and is reinforced every single day.
Myself, I plan to get out of the Corporate world soon... start working for myself because I am so sick of the attitudes that are prevalent in the Corporate world.
Sorry I got off on a bit of a rant... but the upshot is to be yourself. Don't try to be something you're not... and don't bend over backwards to fit in. Friends you make in the workplace will be your friends regardless of whether or not you're male or female. You don't want to break into a clique because by the evidence that the clique exists they have already shown you and everyone else that they don't want anyone else to join. Cliques are usually formed by selfish and self-motivated people who you probably don't want to hang out with anyway.
Find friends with whom you have something in common; male or female. Make friends with their friends and remain open to the idea of inviting others in and letting others invite others in, even if you personally disagree with that decision. Some of my best friends today I considered complete jackasses when I first met them... only after getting to know them (and in some cases giving them a dose of humility) did we become friends... and now I've made some lifelong friends (I hope) who are good people.
Hope this helps.
How could you possibly view switching from a culture of abuse of women in the workplace to a culture of alienation and fear of women in the workplace as moving in the right direction?
Men have always been aliented from and fearful of women. Creating a workplace that is no longer abusive to women is a good thing.
That America has overcorrected the problem of harassment is unsurprising.
Now we are slowly heading toward the middle. It's always a bumpy ride.
My Heart Is A Flower
Being an ee major meant I was typically the only girl in my class. Also, I got used to being the only one. When I stumbled into IT from engineering, I found there to be plenty of women in this space. However, whenever we run into each other, we always tend to keep to ourselves like similarly charged particles.
When it comes to tbe boy's club, I've almost never been or felt left out because of my (sad) ability to outgeek someone. On those rare occasions where I felt shut out, it was mainly due to the predefined mindset of a specific individual and not the group as a whole.
Now when it comes to the non-technial wives of the boy's club...that's a whole other story. Those folks typically are threatened by our kind.
Treat them like people rather than an alien species, and they'll do the same to you. As a woman who has spent much of her life as the "token chick" in IT jobs, gaming groups, and social groups, I've learned that basic friendliness can go a damn long way. Don't make assumptions about the people you work with, avoid making fundamental attribution errors, and pull your own weight.
Actually, I've found it much, much easier to establish rapport with male co-workers at IT jobs than in almost any other field. Maybe it's because of the pre-existence--or likely pre-existence--of common ground. Maybe it's because I've been lucky enough to work with guys who didn't usually fit the stereotype of macho men and so didn't have as many gender-based assumptions about me. Regardless, remember that you're all people. Start there, and the rest will usually follow.
Do you go for the guy with the biggest gut and the strongest breath/BO?
Yeah, that should keep most everyone away from you!
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
What do you expect, given the levels of misandry in the US and the UK? Piss people off enough and they get mad, and begin saying things they wouldn't otherwise say. Even reasonable people will say unreasonable things if they've been provoked enough.
What kind of IT shop talks about sports?
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
I am a geek of the female persuasion, and honed my skills for hanging with the boys in college and grad school (Physics). By the time I got to The Workforce, it was natural for me: just don't be a girlie girl. Sure, be feminine, but don't talk about girl stuff with the guys (the fastest way to clear a room of guys is to say "tampons - period"). Also, they expect you to do girl things like cry when you're stressed, be "moody" every 28 days or so, [INSERT STEREOTYPE HERE], etc... which basically freaks them out. Just don't do it. On the other hand, don't turn into Queen Bitch From Hell - sure, be strong, just don't be a bitch. They'll accept you if you don't scare them, and they'll come to respect your work PROVIDED you do a damn good job. And, make sure you listen and don't balk at the "guy-isms". They are so darned predictable and cute in their insecure guy way... but sure, give them good natured crap about it :-D They do to each other. And if you give it, be ready to take it.
So in other words, you're saying that when only men are around, you can goof off instead of actually working. That probably doesn't go over too well with your boss. Some men also find the type of "locker room" behavior you described offensive and do not tolerate it at work.
I don't think you should be worried about some woman coming along and spoiling the fun you have with your buddies at work. You should be worried that she might do a better job than you, because she actually spends her time at the office working instead of horsing around like you and the boys.
THe entire discussion is based in US. India as we all know is like the BIG IT hub. Lots of work gets offshored there and the scenario in IT offices for females is nothing less than a casting couch in hollywood. There is hardly any law and order in the country, people don't care about it either. Sexual harrassment is seen as much as a right as is nepotism, red-tapism and bueracracy. For a reference point of understanding, the scenario is pretty much like slave labour in sweatshops in china/vietnam, except this is in the sense of gender.
In order to obtain better projects, raises, conferences, etc etc, females generally have to sleep with their bosses and this is in really HUGE/well-reputed american/indian software corporations. Appraisals are NOT based upon job performance but specifically on sexual performance as was/is perhaps common in hollywood and in the modelling industry. The current marital/relationship status/ the numebr of kids they have, of either party doesn't really matter. Since its more like do it or have your career totally trampled upon, most females don't have much of a choice and they don't have much data to try and file a Public Interest Litigation either. In fact, most people are not even aware of something happening since co-workers hardly interact so much, and nobody cares.
THe reason that these companies don't mind it, is because usually the boss is more important to the company as an employee than the workers. Hence, most companies don't bother to follow their own policies on harassment even. Indian government does not do anything about it, well simply because nobody bothers to bring up the problem, nobody is going to believe it happens, and they are worse than VOGONS when it comes to taking action.
Universities, colleges, etc never bother to address this issue along with numerous other student issues, coz they don't think its worth spending time over either.
Ofcourse, just as the casting couch, there are lots of females who do take advantage of this no work heavy pay situation in a "untraceable socially acceptable" scenario and are damn happy.
THe entire discussion is based in US. India as we all know is like the BIG IT hub. Lots of work gets offshored there and the scenario in IT offices for females is nothing less than a casting couch in hollywood. There is hardly any law and order in the country, people don't care about it either. Sexual harrassment is seen as much as a right as is nepotism, red-tapism and bueracracy. For a reference point of understanding, the scenario is pretty much like slave labour in sweatshops in china/vietnam, except this is in the sense of gender.
:D
In order to obtain better projects, raises, conferences, etc etc, females generally have to sleep with their bosses and this is in really HUGE/well-reputed american/indian software corporations. Appraisals are NOT based upon job performance but specifically on sexual performance as was/is perhaps common in hollywood and in the modelling industry. The current marital/relationship status/ the numebr of kids they have, of either party doesn't really matter. Since its more like do it or have your career totally trampled upon, most females don't have much of a choice and they don't have much data to try and file a Public Interest Litigation either. In fact, most people are not even aware of something happening since co-workers hardly interact so much, and nobody cares.
THe reason that these companies don't mind it, is because usually the boss is more important to the company as an employee than the workers. Hence, most companies don't bother to follow their own policies on harassment even. Indian government does not do anything about it, well simply because nobody bothers to bring up the problem, nobody is going to believe it happens, and they are worse than VOGONS when it comes to taking action.
Universities, colleges, etc never bother to address this issue along with numerous other student issues, coz they don't think its worth spending time over either.
Ofcourse, just as the casting couch, there are lots of females who do take advantage of this no work heavy pay situation in a "untraceable socially acceptable" scenario and are damn happy.
Disclaimer : THis is NOT an isolated freak rant. Its pretty much emergent behavior. If you'd like, just as the casting couch/sweatshops its here to stay. Next time you see the new version of your commercial software, know that some female lost her virginity to get it on schedule
Ever hear of a blowjob?
In all fairness, I've never worked with a bunch of guys who seemed to be anti-female or anything. Usually, when I start a new job they're kind of cautious around me until they get to know me, then when they realize I have as twisted a sense of humour as they do and that you have to push me *far* to piss me off, they relax a lot and we do all the silly bonding stuff that makes a good team work. I am watching it happen right now at work where someone who seemed to have been a drag on the department has left...now all of a sudden everyone's talking more, joking more, playing harmless pranks more...and contributing to a 'team spirit' that was a bit lacking before.
I managed a team of three women on one of my little contracts. I learned that their modes of communication are vastly different from mine. They don't see the world the same way as I do. At the same time, some confuse sensetivity to this as a preferential treatment or form of discrimination. Some find talking to men to be very easy and I don't mean that in a sexual way. Some are quite intimidated by us and making a little chit chat with them before dropping that big bomb of a technical question can make the conversation more productive. Some are just mean and maybe its not all my fault, personally. I know plenty of men who are assholes, so why not? But I can tell you this: Should you be so fortunate as to have a woman on your team, set yourself an outlook reminder for her birthday right now. If you don't know what her birthday is, talk to someone in HR about it. She loves cards. I can't promise that flowers from you personally won't cross the line, but a little something from the whole team can't hurt. Oh, and: Don't leave dishes in the sink in the break room. Especially after a party. I just have a gut feeling that this is a bad idea on par with "rm -f /" as far as having female co-workers is concerned.
Just do a good job and not worry about it?
Im sure you have friends on the outside, if co-workers dont want to be friends and accept you for who you are ( regardless of what that means ) its of no great loss.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I'm not sure if this is really true, but I strongly suspect that while most of these would get a guy fired, I'm trying to imagine how you'd fire a female for being misogynistic.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Interesting and ironic. At the last round of sensitivity training we had where I work, we were told that excluding people from activities conducted during non-working hours, like going to happy hour after work, could be considered to be exclusionary, creating a hostile environment for the excluded, if the group going out consisted of only one identifiable group like all guys.
So invite her and get in trouble for harassment, don't invite her and get in trouble for excluding her.
As Mr. Miyagi said, "sometimes better just stay home"
Understanding is a three edged sword. - Ambassador Kosh Naranek, Babylon 5
Q. How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A. Four! One to change the bulb and the other three to make a documentary about it.
Even trying to "score" as you put it should not be a problem.
"Hi, would you like to have a coffee" or something of the sort, in a respectful way is not, and can;t be, construed as harrasment.
Now, if you get a parnaoid-schizophrenic coworker, nothing you do will prevent her imagining that she's being harrassed.
For bunnies sakes, enjoy life, be human and trust the good judgment of others.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
In companies worth their salt there are very specific situations and proceudres to deal with these incidents.
If you HR department is not familiar with them you should really ask them to get a clue.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
That analogy was like a shark