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> You're going to have to point to a verifiable study saying 10% of the population is homosexual.

Meh,it's been years since I've been actually active in the movement, but that's the ballpark figure that gets thrown around mostly, and it comes from Kinsey. However, I just did some quick looking around for more recent numbers, and found http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRI_AIM_Talk.html . This is a summary of a number of studies, and since it's by Paul Cameron of the FRI, notable for not being very gay-minded, I doubt that he'll be overstating the numbers.

Numbers, as expected, vary wildly, from 0.6% (Kurdeck & Schmitt, 1987) to 10.7% for males and 7.4% for females (FRI-Dallas, 1984). Cameron's interpretation is to average 35 studies, and this points him to a number of less than 5% for both men and women, still not an unimportant number.

One of the major problems in getting accurate numbers, is the inherent fluidity of sexuality - you're not either gay or straight, and even adding bisexual to the list doesn't clear things up. At what point does a straight person become a gay man ? When, in a drunken stupor, a guy picks up a broad that turns out to have a surprise for him, and he's so drunk and horny that he fucks it anyway ? When a woman is happily married and even has children, but when they go swinging she happily gets it on with women ?

It's not an easy thing to determine, but I'll agree that Kinsey's estimate was very probably on the high side.

> I know hundreds of people, but very few of them are homosexual. I simply don't believe that one in ten people is homosexual.

I also know hundreds of people (hey, we both have a life) and you'll not be surprised to learn that well over 10%, probably a lot higher, are gay. In my first-name alphabetized phone book, out of the 20 first people there's 6 gays.

Your personal experience will obviously be strongly related to your personal environment. You've already admitted to an 'aversion to homosexuality', so obviously you're not going to have a lot of gay friends.

And yes, btw, I do go out in straight clubs as well - I'm even a member of the board in one of the major local youth centers.

> same reason you occasionally get horribly deformed animals

Why, thank you :-)

I'd nevertheless like to point out that, unlike the random mutations (and probably well below 1% occurence) of horribly deformed animals, homosexuality is a rather consistent mutation. The debate about nature vs. nurture is still on, and will probably be so for a long time to come, but most everyone agrees that it'll probably turn out to be a bit of both.

However, if *you* have some verifyable studies saying that I'm a horribly deformed animal, I'll happily oblige. Don't go asking for studies, and then start throwing around totally groundless numbers and theories.

Just as a matter of curiosity, btw, I wonder if you enjoy anal sex with your other-sex partners? If you do (and a lot of surprisingly straight men *and* women do), you might want to reconsider that "yuck"-factor of yours. Just saying :-)

Maybe he stated that because it's true.

If you can produce a reputable, peer-reviewed study to the contrary, please share. Articles by Dailey and Cameron do not qualify.

Google search skills are your friends -- reprint.

As far as I can see, the article makes no reference to the need for strong role models per se for both genders. Rather, the emphasis is on the disproportionate impacts on the children for single parents, divorced parents, and the effect of stepparents, as opposed to a stable two-parent household. The first two groups are irrelevant to the question of gay marriage-- although definitely relevant to the larger social debate. I freely concede that a two parent household has major advantanges over single or separate parent households for the raising of children.

The stepparent impact is a more analogous situation, and a more reasonable concern. The case of Gay couples, however, may be somewhere between this and adoptive heterosexual parents who are otherwise unable to have children. A comparison study on how children adopted in infancy turn out versus non-adoptive children might be a useful counter-reference-- and if such a study hasn't been done yet, every sociologist on the planet should be taken out and shot. Now.

In turn, I can't provide an on-line citation, as my recollection was of coverage from a Nightline or similar news show segment on a study about children of gay parents. I suspect the study it covered was either Rafkin or Saffron -- probably the former, from my recollection of the timing. However, the main Google references to these are by various right-wing to a re-analysis by the less-than-impartial "Family Research Institute" -- who were recently classified by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a "hate group". However, even the excepts given from their respin are not inconsistent with my impressions from that way-back news program, to wit...

First: a stable two parent family is more important than the gender of the parents. Single/divorced parents mean more problems.

Second: yes, children of homosexuals will have to deal with problems from society at large as a result of their parents' homosexuality. I consider bigotry, prejudice, and intolerance to be a problem with society, not with a family per se; saying homosexuals should not marry for this reason is easily analagous to saying interracial couples should not marry for such reasons.

Third: once you factor in economic brackets, the kids turned out much the same as their peers. Homosexuality and bisexuality were more common than with their peers, but still a minority result-- maybe 20%? (Consideration of orientation was universal.)

The legal foundation for discrimination instead of equal protection is "compelling state interest"-- Bradwell v. Illinois, IIR. If reasonably conclusive evidence can be obtained that children of gay marriages turn out worse than hetero marriages, all other factors equal, then a legal foundation can be made to prohibit gay marriage. Lacking that, 14th amendment protection on liberty makes such prohibition... problematic.

Fortunately (?), Canada legalized gay marriage a few years back (2000?). So, there will probably exist an opportunity for better data gathering in a decade or so. In the meanwhile, everyone gets to keep screaming at each other.

Google search skills are your friends -- reprint.

As far as I can see, the article makes no reference to the need for strong role models per se for both genders. Rather, the emphasis is on the disproportionate impacts on the children for single parents, divorced parents, and the effect of stepparents, as opposed to a stable two-parent household. The first two groups are irrelevant to the question of gay marriage-- although definitely relevant to the larger social debate. I freely concede that a two parent household has major advantanges over single or separate parent households for the raising of children.

The stepparent impact is a more analogous situation, and a more reasonable concern. The case of Gay couples, however, may be somewhere between this and adoptive heterosexual parents who are otherwise unable to have children. A comparison study on how children adopted in infancy turn out versus non-adoptive children might be a useful counter-reference-- and if such a study hasn't been done yet, every sociologist on the planet should be taken out and shot. Now.

In turn, I can't provide an on-line citation, as my recollection was of coverage from a Nightline or similar news show segment on a study about children of gay parents. I suspect the study it covered was either Rafkin or Saffron -- probably the former, from my recollection of the timing. However, the main Google references to these are by various right-wing to a re-analysis by the less-than-impartial "Family Research Institute" -- who were recently classified by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a "hate group". However, even the excepts given from their respin are not inconsistent with my impressions from that way-back news program, to wit...

First: a stable two parent family is more important than the gender of the parents. Single/divorced parents mean more problems.

Second: yes, children of homosexuals will have to deal with problems from society at large as a result of their parents' homosexuality. I consider bigotry, prejudice, and intolerance to be a problem with society, not with a family per se; saying homosexuals should not marry for this reason is easily analagous to saying interracial couples should not marry for such reasons.

Third: once you factor in economic brackets, the kids turned out much the same as their peers. Homosexuality and bisexuality were more common than with their peers, but still a minority result-- maybe 20%? (Consideration of orientation was universal.)

The legal foundation for discrimination instead of equal protection is "compelling state interest"-- Bradwell v. Illinois, IIR. If reasonably conclusive evidence can be obtained that children of gay marriages turn out worse than hetero marriages, all other factors equal, then a legal foundation can be made to prohibit gay marriage. Lacking that, 14th amendment protection on liberty makes such prohibition... problematic.

Fortunately (?), Canada legalized gay marriage a few years back (2000?). So, there will probably exist an opportunity for better data gathering in a decade or so. In the meanwhile, everyone gets to keep screaming at each other.

which has strong evidence against it (i.e. the fact gay rats can literally be manufactured and there is data from WWII-era German births providing a link to the same phenomena in humans).

I'd like to see some links to where the research you mention was conducted. I've seen evidence to the contrary.

They also somehow believe people wake up one morning and say "I want to be a member of the most vocally hated minority in the US." and such.

Why do kids become Hari Krishnas? Not many people want to be around a person who wears yellow robes, shaves his hair, and goes around chanting and ringing bells. Why do people become motor cycle gang members? Few wish to befriend or be around a person who wears leather clothes, sports a beard and long hair, guzzles beer, and wears tattoos. Why do people dye their hair blue, wear nose rings, get their belly buttons pierced, or get tattoos at all? If you look around, perhaps 10% or so of the population is 'different by choice' (and among adolescents, the percentage is certainly higher).

Why would this be? Doesn't everyone want to be like everybody else? Not really.

It can be exciting to stand out in a crowd. Having the only blue hair in school gives you an identity. You can stand out with relatively modest effort. You don't have to be a great athlete or do well academically, you can be talked about and get noticed.

Likewise, you can 'be someone' if you declare yourself to be 'gay' -- everyone will talk about you. Suddenly you'll have an 'identity.' You used to be just another nerdy W.A.S.P. -- suddenly you're a member of a beleaguered minority. You now have purpose and comradery (with other gays).

"11.5%....a user is just as likely to be gay as to use a non-MS browser"

Ha! Your gay percentage is sorely mistaken--no doubt a brainwash from the gay-friendly media: This article dispells the myth with reputable sources.

The percentage is closer to 2%.

... unrepresentative samples, like 10% of us are homosexuals (based on a self-reporting study of inmates defining homosexual as having had a sexual situation or thought dealing with the same sex--IN PRISON)

I've heard the 10% number over the years and believed it, so out of curiousity I did a little little google search, and whattaya know, the #1 result was this 10% myth page from the Family Research Institute.

Also featured today on the Family Research Institute home page:

• Homosexual rape is 5-10% of all rape and is increasing
• Story of Jim, homosexual sex offendor
• Link between pedophilia and homosexuality
• Children raised by homosexuals have "childhood difficulties"
• Special Study on Homosexuality (realaudio "lessons", I didn't bother listening to it)

You can also check out their " educational pamphlets", such as " Medical Consequences of What Homosexuals Do" ... utter homophobia (and a lot of hetrosexual couples have oral sex, anal sex, kinky S&M play, but the text is pure FUD, mostly Fear) I wonder if their pamphlets are made by the Chick Tract guys.

Later on the same google result is this paper which at first appears to be based on some honest research which claims 5% and goes on to say "On the basis of the Bagley et al.(1994) sample data, it is now known that the recent studies producing 1%(90) to 3% estimates for gay males, or for males who are homosexually active, are seriously flawed." Turns out this one is hosted by the Queer Resources Directory, but the author appears to be dedicated to helping troubled homosexual teens (more google searching)

So I guess I learned something new today. The gay population numbers are in a lot more dispute than WorldCom's traffic growth due to the tension between homosexual communities and homophobic right-wing groups, the 10% number I've always heard before does appear to be a bit high. Hmm. Personally, I'm het, but I'd much rather be around people who are homosexual than people who are homophobic. Fortunately, repressed homophobics are a lot easier to spot.

Very off-topic, someone please mod me down, if for nothing else other than wasting time on this instead of what I should be working on....

... unrepresentative samples, like 10% of us are homosexuals (based on a self-reporting study of inmates defining homosexual as having had a sexual situation or thought dealing with the same sex--IN PRISON)

I've heard the 10% number over the years and believed it, so out of curiousity I did a little little google search, and whattaya know, the #1 result was this 10% myth page from the Family Research Institute.

Also featured today on the Family Research Institute home page:

• Homosexual rape is 5-10% of all rape and is increasing
• Story of Jim, homosexual sex offendor
• Link between pedophilia and homosexuality
• Children raised by homosexuals have "childhood difficulties"
• Special Study on Homosexuality (realaudio "lessons", I didn't bother listening to it)

You can also check out their " educational pamphlets", such as " Medical Consequences of What Homosexuals Do" ... utter homophobia (and a lot of hetrosexual couples have oral sex, anal sex, kinky S&M play, but the text is pure FUD, mostly Fear) I wonder if their pamphlets are made by the Chick Tract guys.

Later on the same google result is this paper which at first appears to be based on some honest research which claims 5% and goes on to say "On the basis of the Bagley et al.(1994) sample data, it is now known that the recent studies producing 1%(90) to 3% estimates for gay males, or for males who are homosexually active, are seriously flawed." Turns out this one is hosted by the Queer Resources Directory, but the author appears to be dedicated to helping troubled homosexual teens (more google searching)

So I guess I learned something new today. The gay population numbers are in a lot more dispute than WorldCom's traffic growth due to the tension between homosexual communities and homophobic right-wing groups, the 10% number I've always heard before does appear to be a bit high. Hmm. Personally, I'm het, but I'd much rather be around people who are homosexual than people who are homophobic. Fortunately, repressed homophobics are a lot easier to spot.

Very off-topic, someone please mod me down, if for nothing else other than wasting time on this instead of what I should be working on....

... unrepresentative samples, like 10% of us are homosexuals (based on a self-reporting study of inmates defining homosexual as having had a sexual situation or thought dealing with the same sex--IN PRISON)

I've heard the 10% number over the years and believed it, so out of curiousity I did a little little google search, and whattaya know, the #1 result was this 10% myth page from the Family Research Institute.

Also featured today on the Family Research Institute home page:

• Homosexual rape is 5-10% of all rape and is increasing
• Story of Jim, homosexual sex offendor
• Link between pedophilia and homosexuality
• Children raised by homosexuals have "childhood difficulties"
• Special Study on Homosexuality (realaudio "lessons", I didn't bother listening to it)

You can also check out their " educational pamphlets", such as " Medical Consequences of What Homosexuals Do" ... utter homophobia (and a lot of hetrosexual couples have oral sex, anal sex, kinky S&M play, but the text is pure FUD, mostly Fear) I wonder if their pamphlets are made by the Chick Tract guys.

Later on the same google result is this paper which at first appears to be based on some honest research which claims 5% and goes on to say "On the basis of the Bagley et al.(1994) sample data, it is now known that the recent studies producing 1%(90) to 3% estimates for gay males, or for males who are homosexually active, are seriously flawed." Turns out this one is hosted by the Queer Resources Directory, but the author appears to be dedicated to helping troubled homosexual teens (more google searching)

So I guess I learned something new today. The gay population numbers are in a lot more dispute than WorldCom's traffic growth due to the tension between homosexual communities and homophobic right-wing groups, the 10% number I've always heard before does appear to be a bit high. Hmm. Personally, I'm het, but I'd much rather be around people who are homosexual than people who are homophobic. Fortunately, repressed homophobics are a lot easier to spot.

Very off-topic, someone please mod me down, if for nothing else other than wasting time on this instead of what I should be working on....

... unrepresentative samples, like 10% of us are homosexuals (based on a self-reporting study of inmates defining homosexual as having had a sexual situation or thought dealing with the same sex--IN PRISON)

I've heard the 10% number over the years and believed it, so out of curiousity I did a little little google search, and whattaya know, the #1 result was this 10% myth page from the Family Research Institute.

Also featured today on the Family Research Institute home page:

• Homosexual rape is 5-10% of all rape and is increasing
• Story of Jim, homosexual sex offendor
• Link between pedophilia and homosexuality
• Children raised by homosexuals have "childhood difficulties"
• Special Study on Homosexuality (realaudio "lessons", I didn't bother listening to it)

You can also check out their " educational pamphlets", such as " Medical Consequences of What Homosexuals Do" ... utter homophobia (and a lot of hetrosexual couples have oral sex, anal sex, kinky S&M play, but the text is pure FUD, mostly Fear) I wonder if their pamphlets are made by the Chick Tract guys.

Later on the same google result is this paper which at first appears to be based on some honest research which claims 5% and goes on to say "On the basis of the Bagley et al.(1994) sample data, it is now known that the recent studies producing 1%(90) to 3% estimates for gay males, or for males who are homosexually active, are seriously flawed." Turns out this one is hosted by the Queer Resources Directory, but the author appears to be dedicated to helping troubled homosexual teens (more google searching)

So I guess I learned something new today. The gay population numbers are in a lot more dispute than WorldCom's traffic growth due to the tension between homosexual communities and homophobic right-wing groups, the 10% number I've always heard before does appear to be a bit high. Hmm. Personally, I'm het, but I'd much rather be around people who are homosexual than people who are homophobic. Fortunately, repressed homophobics are a lot easier to spot.

Very off-topic, someone please mod me down, if for nothing else other than wasting time on this instead of what I should be working on....

... unrepresentative samples, like 10% of us are homosexuals (based on a self-reporting study of inmates defining homosexual as having had a sexual situation or thought dealing with the same sex--IN PRISON)

I've heard the 10% number over the years and believed it, so out of curiousity I did a little little google search, and whattaya know, the #1 result was this 10% myth page from the Family Research Institute.

Also featured today on the Family Research Institute home page:

• Homosexual rape is 5-10% of all rape and is increasing
• Story of Jim, homosexual sex offendor
• Link between pedophilia and homosexuality
• Children raised by homosexuals have "childhood difficulties"
• Special Study on Homosexuality (realaudio "lessons", I didn't bother listening to it)

You can also check out their " educational pamphlets", such as " Medical Consequences of What Homosexuals Do" ... utter homophobia (and a lot of hetrosexual couples have oral sex, anal sex, kinky S&M play, but the text is pure FUD, mostly Fear) I wonder if their pamphlets are made by the Chick Tract guys.

Later on the same google result is this paper which at first appears to be based on some honest research which claims 5% and goes on to say "On the basis of the Bagley et al.(1994) sample data, it is now known that the recent studies producing 1%(90) to 3% estimates for gay males, or for males who are homosexually active, are seriously flawed." Turns out this one is hosted by the Queer Resources Directory, but the author appears to be dedicated to helping troubled homosexual teens (more google searching)

So I guess I learned something new today. The gay population numbers are in a lot more dispute than WorldCom's traffic growth due to the tension between homosexual communities and homophobic right-wing groups, the 10% number I've always heard before does appear to be a bit high. Hmm. Personally, I'm het, but I'd much rather be around people who are homosexual than people who are homophobic. Fortunately, repressed homophobics are a lot easier to spot.

Very off-topic, someone please mod me down, if for nothing else other than wasting time on this instead of what I should be working on....

How about the fact that silence encourages persecution and discrimination.

So does endless annoyance.....

How about the fact that unless people realize that 1 in 10 are gay, they'll consider it freakish.

yeh, right.The kinsey's report is way, way, off. If you belived that number, you'd also find out that in the first 10,000 histories, %15 were convicted sex offenders and %12 were prostitutes.

I'll admit that it's tacky, but I'll continue to be loud and proud for as long as neccesary.



Amber Yuan 2k A.D