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I'm not being sarcastic.

However, burning a fossil fuel and dumping it into the atmosphere is something that coming up with a reasonable approximation of the cost of the externalities is something we can do with current knowledge and current math.

The methods I've seen for computing the "true cost" of gas vary wildly. Here's an example: http://www.icta.org/doc/Real%20Price%20of%20Gasoline.pdf

If you read that paper you'll surely agree with me that it's ludicrous. Maybe you have a more rational example in mind.

There are going to be severe problems with any analysis though. If it lumps health care costs into the price of gas, the question becomes "well why are health care costs so high anyway?" If some arbitrary value is attributed to "aesthetic degradation/loss of cultural sites" due to increased suburban sprawl (see linked paper), the question is obviously "uhh, what?"

Most reasonable guesses at this say that gas should cost something like 5 or 6 bucks a gallon once you include these costs. If this is true, that means society as a whole DOES PAY THAT COST even if it doesn't show up at the pump.

That's true, but the question is can that cost truly be tied to gasoline?

Also, is it taking into account the subjective benefits of burning gas? For instance if I say "well I like sprawl, I think adding sprawl adds a trillion dollars per year to my perceived value of this country" then magically the "true cost" of gas plummets. In fact we should be paid for burning gas.

But if you have a paper or something that you can link to I'd like to see where the $5 - $6 cost comes from. Maybe it's not so bad.

Market price is not the *true cost*.

This report by the International Center for Technology Assessment (CTA) identifies and quantifies the many external costs of using motor vehicles and the internal combustion engine that are notreflected in the retail price Americans pay for gasoline. These are costs that consumers pay indirectly by way of increased taxes, insurance costs, and retail prices in other sectors. The report divides the external costs of gasoline usage into five primary areas: (1) Tax Subsidization of the Oil Industry; (2) Government Program Subsidies;(3) Protection Costs Involved in Oil Shipment and Motor Vehicle Services; (4) Environmental, Health, and Social Costs of Gasoline Usage; and (5) Other Important Externalities of Motor Vehicle Use. Together, these external costs total $558.7 billion to $1.69 trillion per year, which, when added to the retail price of gasoline, results in a per gallon price of $5.60 to $15.14

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http://www.icta.org/doc/Real%20Price%20of%20Gasoline.pdf

That is only one example. Feel free to Google "true cost of gasoline."

How did you come up with that figure and what sorts of hard data can you use to back up that claim?

I read estimates like this (total per gallon price of $5.60 to $15.14.) and this (a total price of $5.28/gallon if only foreign policy costs are accounted for) and this ($1 to $6 a gallon in subsidies).

I'm not married to the $5/gallon figure specifically; the specifics are, as the range of figures shows, debatable. But it seems about right to me, and it's what was put on the table upthread.

The only reason you are suggesting to "gradually" implement a tax of this nature is that you know full well that if it was introduced at once that enough people would be so ticked off that any politician suggesting something this bold would be voted out of office immediately.

No, I'm saying that people have made choices based on cheap gas, and we need to give them time to make better choices.

I'm talking about what's necessary, not what's politically expedient. If we want to avoid catastrophe, we have to move off of fossil fuels; sadly, it seems the odds are good that my fellow Americans will continue to elect politicians who will tell them that everything is just fine, that they need not make the slightest changes in their gluttonous lifestyles, that all our problems are caused by brown-skinned people and can be solved by pointing more guns at such people.

You also haven't accounted for already existing taxes of close to a dollar a gallon anyway,

A few seconds with Google can often keep you from looking like an ass. The federal tax is only 18.4 cents per gallon, and the average state tax is 27.2 cents, a total of 45.6 cents a gallon. State fuel taxes are generally a way to collect a road use tax anyway, and don't enter into this issue.

That shiney new SUV likely is way more fuel efficent than a 20-30 year old car.

How many 1976 cars do you seen on the road, compared to recent SUVs? But yes, I have no problem with also removing older cars from the road. (With an exception for maintained antique cars.) Indeed it has been suggested by some that a targeted buy-back of old cars would be a great way to reduce pollution, but I haven't examined that proposal.

As gas is almost 1/3 tax WTF more do you want?

Current gas taxes pay only for roads. The ecological costs are not factored in; nor are the foreign policy and military costs required to keep oil cheap, nor the costs of subsidies and tax breaks to oil companies.

Estimates of the true price of gasoline come in between 5 and 15 dollars a gallon.

Gas prices are cheap in the US purely because of gasoline subsidies paid for through your taxes. Without these gasoline subsidies, gas would run you more than $15/gallon.

International Center for Technology Assessment

I don't even have a car, and I pay for gasoline.

The real cost of gasoline [http://www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm]

From their estimates, it is between $5 - $15 per gallon.
I think this article is a couple of years old, but it still just as relevant today as it was then (perhaps more so...).

As a side thought, how much does gas cost outside of the US, and what impact does this seem to have?

www.nytimes.com/2001/05/27/business/27DIES.html
www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle / rchive/2001/05/23/MN110637.DTL
journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html
www.greasecar.com
www.lupo80days.com/route_en.html
www.a-car.com/index.html
www.biodiesel.org/
lowtech.bigstep.com/
www.veggievan.com
www.americanbiodiesel.com/
www.icta.org/projects/trans/rlprexsm.htm
news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1309000/ 1309201.stm
www.wired.com/news/technology/1,1282,31920,00.html

Wow, are you indicating that the US government should lower gas tax to counter the rise in gas prices by the oil companies??

Do you not realize the true cost of gas?

For every gallon of gas the you put in the your shinny SUV, the U.S. tax payer has already paid $6-$18 for that gallon (depending on it's location and if you are counting military funding required for that oil field). This is why gas is so cheap in the US.

Read this for more information The Real Price of Gas (note this paper doesn't cover military cost of gas).

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