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this is the country you want to play nice with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%932010_Iranian_election_protests

and this:

http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/government/constitution-1.html

Article 2

The Islamic Republic is a system based on belief in:

1.the One God (as stated in the phrase "There is no god except Allah"), His exclusive sovereignty and the right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
2.Divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;
3.the return to God in the Hereafter, and the constructive role of this belief in the course of man's ascent towards God;
4.the justice of God in creation and legislation;
5.continuous leadership (imamah) and perpetual guidance, and its fundamental role in ensuring the uninterrupted process of the revolution of Islam;

it is a THEOCRACY. a bunch of grumpy old men, who believe they have a monopoly on the word of god... with nukes?

no fucking way

it's not about islam, i'd feel the same way if it were a jewish or christian theocracy

and no, israel and the usa are not the same. even if the leader is devout and religious, the only valid parallel is if the pope decided on who could run in us elections and retained final authority on all us govt matters

i don't trust a theocracy with nukes. you may, but as far as i am concerned you are a deluded naive fool in your approach to world affairs

it would hasten the return of the the mahdi, the hidden imam. if you are promised salvation at armageddeon, and you are a true believer, maybe you can hasten salvation by hastening armageddeon. you have to kill some people to save them right?

if that sounds like religious fundamentalist self-fulfilling prophecy kookery, well yes, yes it is

you do realize that iran is a theocracy, right? power is invested in a bunch of grumpy old men who somehow have a monopoly on interpreting the willpower of god. that's their government. that bothers me. not because its muslim, but because its FUNDAMENTALIST. a fundamentalist christian theocracy with nukes would bother me too (and this is where some of you call the usa that, and reveal yourselves to be complete morons unworthy of commenting on world affairs)

Article 1

The form of government of Iran is that of an Islamic Republic, endorsed by the people of Iran on the basis of their longstanding belief in the sovereignty of truth and Qur'anic justice, in the referendum of Farwardin 9 and 10 in the year 1358 of the solar Islamic calendar, corresponding to Jamadi al-'Awwal 1 and 2 in the year 1399 of the lunar Islamic calendar (March 29 and 30, 1979], through the affirmative vote of a majority of 98.2% of eligible voters, held after the victorious Islamic Revolution led by the eminent marji' al-taqlid, Ayatullah al-Uzma Imam Khumayni.

Article 2

The Islamic Republic is a system based on belief in:

1.the One God (as stated in the phrase "There is no god except Allah"), His exclusive sovereignty and the right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
2.Divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;
3.the return to God in the Hereafter, and the constructive role of this belief in the course of man's ascent towards God;
4.the justice of God in creation and legislation;
5.continuous leadership (imamah) and perpetual guidance, and its fundamental role in ensuring the uninterrupted process of the revolution of Islam; ...

http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/government/constitution-1.html

you can say all you want about the usa and israel. they both do plenty wrong in the world and the middle east. but regardless about how you feel about the usa and israel, do you really want a THEOCRACY armed with nuclear weapons in this world?! does that somehow neutralize or make up for the sins of israel and the usa? how's that work?

there's a lot of strange people out there, who, in their hatred of the usa and israel, will embrace and excuse the behavior of far worse entities. i don't understand that thinking. and when i say "far worse entities," don't take my word for it: a few years ago some people in iran voted, and their votes were ignored, and they protested, and they were brutally crushed. ask an IRANIAN what they think of their government, that freely ignores them, they whom the government is supposed to represent

so in your hatred of the usa and israel, don't move to embrace entities far worse

do you know its actually possible to dislike the usa, israel AND iran at the same time? try it. then you will find yourself adhering to actual principles, rather than moronic chest thumping tribalism. its not a football game. you don't have to pick sides. you can actually reject all sides. just don't be a complete moron and embrace and defend the murderer because you dislike the rapist

i don't care about israel. israel doesn't matter: iran shouldn't have nukes because it is a theocracy. it believes in power invested in some grumpy old men who are believed to have a sort of monopoly on the interpretation of the will of god. this is not the kind of person i want with a nuclear weapon

this is the constitution of iran:

1- General Principles
Article 1

The form of government of Iran is that of an Islamic Republic, endorsed by the people of Iran on the basis of their longstanding belief in the sovereignty of truth and Qur'anic justice, in the referendum of Farwardin 9 and 10 in the year 1358 of the solar Islamic calendar, corresponding to Jamadi al-'Awwal 1 and 2 in the year 1399 of the lunar Islamic calendar (March 29 and 30, 1979], through the affirmative vote of a majority of 98.2% of eligible voters, held after the victorious Islamic Revolution led by the eminent marji' al-taqlid, Ayatullah al-Uzma Imam Khumayni.

Article 2

The Islamic Republic is a system based on belief in:

1.the One God (as stated in the phrase "There is no god except Allah"), His exclusive sovereignty and the right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
2.Divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;
3.the return to God in the Hereafter, and the constructive role of this belief in the course of man's ascent towards God;
4.the justice of God in creation and legislation;
5.continuous leadership (imamah) and perpetual guidance, and its fundamental role in ensuring the uninterrupted process of the revolution of Islam; ...

http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/government/constitution-1.html

you want a government who believes these things in possession of a nuclear weapon?

and please, don't get me wrong: i don't have any problems with islam. if this document was centered on christianity or judaism i would have the same repulsion. i have problem with religious power structures, period. some religious kooks who think some invisible mahdi dude will reappear at armageddeon, with freaking NUCLEAR BOMB?! self-fulfilling prophecy? hello?

no, no fucking thanks, no nuke for iran

again: i don't care about israel. i have no problem with islam. i simply have a major serious problem with religious kooks possessing a nuclear bomb. NO THANK YOU

and please, i don't want any asshole lecturing me about false equivalency: that it's the same as pakistan, or israel, or the usa, or whatever: no, it isn't really the same. iran is EXPLICITLY a theocracy. A THEOCRACY. do you understand that? it really is different than saying "well gw bush is religious". yeah, good for him. but the fucking government he is part of isn't based on the fucking pope or some rabbi holding all ultimate power. that difference is real

you didn't happen to notice the military suppression of democracy activists exactly a year ago in iran?

the usa does plenty of evil in the world, and is full of bible thumping assholes, but this is its first amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/estabinto.htm

meanwhile, this is the beginning of iran's constitution:

Article 1

The form of government of Iran is that of an Islamic Republic, endorsed by the people of Iran on the basis of their longstanding belief in the sovereignty of truth and Qur'anic justice, in the referendum of Farwardin 9 and 10 in the year 1358 of the solar Islamic calendar, corresponding to Jamadi al-'Awwal 1 and 2 in the year 1399 of the lunar Islamic calendar (March 29 and 30, 1979], through the affirmative vote of a majority of 98.2% of eligible voters, held after the victorious Islamic Revolution led by the eminent marji' al-taqlid, Ayatullah al-Uzma Imam Khumayni.

Article 2

The Islamic Republic is a system based on belief in:

1.the One God (as stated in the phrase "There is no god except Allah"), His exclusive sovereignty and the right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
2.Divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;
3.the return to God in the Hereafter, and the constructive role of this belief in the course of man's ascent towards God;
4.the justice of God in creation and legislation;
5.continuous leadership (imamah) and perpetual guidance, and its fundamental role in ensuring the uninterrupted process of the revolution of Islam;
6.the exalted dignity and value of man, and his freedom coupled with responsibility before God; in which equity, justice, political, economic, social, and cultural independence, and national solidarity are secured by recourse to:
1.continuous ijtihad of the fuqaha' possessing necessary qualifications, exercised on the basis off the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Ma'sumun, upon all of whom be peace;

http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/government/constitution-1.html

and this is a country where democracy has just been trumped by the revolutionary guards, where now you can wonder whether the country is a military autocracy or a theocracy. either way, officially, a bunch of grumpy old men interpret the will of god, somehow, and they now have their fingers on nuclear bombs. i don't care if you love the usa, hate the usa, love israel, hate israel, but a nuclear armed theocracy cum military autocracy should bother the hell out of you

but instead we have fools like you, who so hate the usa or israel, that they are willing to embrace an entity far far worse

friend: why can't you hate israel, hate the usa, AND hate iran?

why does your hatred of the usa and israel so blind your faculties that you wind up embracing a nuclear armed theocracy?

holy men who say they have a monopoly on interpretting the will of god, with nuclear weapons, isn't something that bothers you? no matter what the usa or israel does?

has nothing to do with being pro-israel, or pro-western, or anti-muslim

suspicion of iran has to do with it being a theocracy. doesn't matter that it is a muslim or christian theocracy, or whether it is located in the middle east, or south america, or antarctica. the issue is it being a theocracy. begnning of valid concern about iran, end of valid concern about iran

if someone is concerned about iran, it very well could be for mindless ethnocentrism, religious bigotry, or tibal chest thumping reasons. it is very easy to be concerned about iran for the lowest and most disgraceful reasons

but someone can also be concerned about iran simply from a strictly globalist, humanist, universal, highminded reason:

a theocracy is a very bad thing

why?

we are talking about a government that has, ensconced in its constituion, a bunch of grumpy old men, who are above all law or ability to be questioned, who act in the name of god, and have a monopoly on interpretting the will of god, according to law. that doesn't bother you?

power in iran is not ahmadinejad. power is in the ayatollahs. ahmadinejad is a figurehead. he does not hold the final power. the ayatollahs can freely choose to disavow any candidate form office, and have done so exorbitantly in past elections to disallow popular reform candidates from running

would you consider it a problem if the pope could, without any ability to question or veto his decision, walk into the elections in germany, or the usa, or great britain, and simply cherry pick the candidates he wants to run?

again, the problem is not islam. the problem is not the middle east. the problem is not being anti-israeli. the problem is not being anti-western. all of these instincts are perfectly valid and defensible world views

the problem is with iran being a THEOCRACY. on that issue alone, is suspicion of iran perfectly valid, from either a pro-western or anti-western point of view

pay attention to the below text... this government is going to get a nuclear warhead:

http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-1.html

The Islamic Republic is a system based on belief in:
1.the One God (as stated in the phrase "There is no god except Allah"), His exclusive sovereignty and the right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
2.Divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;
3.the return to God in the Hereafter, and the constructive role of this belief in the course of man's ascent towards God;
4.the justice of God in creation and legislation;
5.continuous leadership (imamah) and perpetual guidance, and its fundamental role in ensuring the uninterrupted process of the revolution of Islam;
6.the exalted dignity and value of man, and his freedom coupled with responsibility before God

so these grumpy old men, with a monopoly on intepretting what the will of god is, are about to get control over a nuclear warhead

and people wish to say that if you are concerned about this, you must be some brain dead tribal pro-western muslim hater?

really?

if you can frame your opinion about iran having the bomb or not without mentioning the usa or israel at all, then you have a valid opinion. if you are unable to do that, then you only have a poisonous tribal, nationalist chest thumping bias. simple as that

i'm glad you do not have a problem with iran having a bomb. i await your response to me for your rationale for that without mentioning the usa or israel. if you can't do that, i consider your opinion incoherent. until you give me your opinion for iran's right to have the bomb, only mentioning iran and its qualities, not the usa or israel, then you don't have a valid opinion. as the issue with iran having the bomb or not, has to do with iran. and only has to do with describing iran's capacities. do you get that? or are your biased blinders completely blocking out any logic and reason?

since i am not hypocrite, i will explain my rationale to you for me opposing iran having the bomb without mentioning the usa or israel. fair enough?

The form of government of Iran is that of an Islamic Republic, endorsed by the people of Iran on the basis of their longstanding belief in the sovereignty of truth and Qur'anic justice, in the referendum of Farwardin 9 and 10 in the year 1358 of the solar Islamic calendar, corresponding to Jamadi al-'Awwal 1 and 2 in the year 1399 of the lunar Islamic calendar (March 29 and 30, 1979], through the affirmative vote of a majority of 98.2% of eligible voters, held after the victorious Islamic Revolution led by the eminent marji' al-taqlid, Ayatullah al-Uzma Imam Khumayni.

Article 2

The Islamic Republic is a system based on belief in:

1.the One God (as stated in the phrase "There is no god except Allah"), His exclusive sovereignty and the right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
2.Divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;
3.the return to God in the Hereafter, and the constructive role of this belief in the course of man's ascent towards God;
4.the justice of God in creation and legislation;
5.continuous leadership (imamah) and perpetual guidance, and its fundamental role in ensuring the uninterrupted process of the revolution of Islam;

that's the constitution of iran

it describes a theocracy

now, all other countries with a nuclear weapon are not theocracies. of course, religion holds a vast sway in many countries with a nuclear weapon, but they are still republics. some countries with the bomb are run by people who are religious. but their power is curtailed by the rules of their country's constitution, which is not overtly based on religion. if you wanted to say, erroneously, that other countries are generally equivalent to iran in terms of religious influence, you would have to give me something like: the pope has to approve of all presidential candidates in that country's ballot, or they are denied the right to run for office (this is how it works in iran, if you didn't know)

it does not work this way in any other nuclear armed country. if a president of another country woke up tomorrow, and said god told him to nuke iran, he couldn't do that, as he does not hold the ultimate power to do that in his country

but in iran, the ultimate decision to use nukes rests with grumpy old men who claim a monopoly on their ability to interpret the will of god. these same grumpy old men are the ultimate power in iran, they trump ahmadinejad

you don't see a problem there? you don't see something intrinsically different there than any other country? iran, having nukes, is genuinely different than every other country that has the bomb

the principle of MAD (mutually assured destruction) works because the leader of a country doesn't want to see children from his country dead in the street, which is what he would get, if he nuked another country with nuclear weapons

meanwhile, iran is a theocra

The form of government of Iran is that of an Islamic Republic, endorsed by the people of Iran on the basis of their longstanding belief in the sovereignty of truth and Qur'anic justice, in the referendum of Farwardin 9 and 10 in the year 1358 of the solar Islamic calendar, corresponding to Jamadi al-'Awwal 1 and 2 in the year 1399 of the lunar Islamic calendar (March 29 and 30, 1979], through the affirmative vote of a majority of 98.2% of eligible voters, held after the victorious Islamic Revolution led by the eminent marji' al-taqlid, Ayatullah al-Uzma Imam Khumayni.

Article 2

The Islamic Republic is a system based on belief in:

1.the One God (as stated in the phrase "There is no god except Allah"), His exclusive sovereignty and the right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
2.Divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;
3.the return to God in the Hereafter, and the constructive role of this belief in the course of man's ascent towards God;
4.the justice of God in creation and legislation;
5.continuous leadership (imamah) and perpetual guidance, and its fundamental role in ensuring the uninterrupted process of the revolution of Islam;

etc.

that's the constitution of iran

it describes a theocracy

now, all other countries with a nuclear weapon are not theocracies. of course, religion holds a vast sway in many countries with a nuclear weapon, but they are still republics. the usa, for example, is currently run by a devout southern baptist. but his power is curtailed by the rules of his country's constitution, which is not overtly based on religion. if you wanted to say, erroneoussly, that the usa was generally equivalent to iran in terms of religious influence, you would have to give me something like: the pope has to approve of all presidential candidates in the us ballot, or they are denied the right to run for office (this is how it works in iran)

it does not work this way in pakistan. it does not work this way in israel. it doesn't work this way in any other nuclear armed country. if gw bush woke up tomorrow, and said god told him to nuke iran, he couldn't do that, as he does not hold the ultimate power to do that

but in iran, the ultimate decision to use nukes rests with grumpy old men who claim a monopoly on their ability to interpret the will of god. these same grumpy old men are the ultimate power in iran, they trump ahmadinejad

you don't see a problem there? you don't see something intrinsically different there than any other country? iran, having nukes, is genuinely different than every othe rcountry that has the bomb

pro-usa, or anti-usa, the facts about iran, because it is a theocracy, should scare you about iran having nukes, and give you special pause, unlike when you consider any other country with a nuke

we are talking about a theocracy, with nuclear weapons. no matter WHAT your ideological attitude, towards any country in the world: doesn't this fact give you pause, and doesn't it worry you uniquely?

so yes, i say, not as a pro-american, or an anti-american, but simply as a human being wary of the influence of fundamentalist religion in this world, that iran having the nuclear weapon is something especially worrisome, and stands out as especially dangerous, than all countries with nukes. simply because they are a theocracy

1- General Principles

Article 1

The form of government of Iran is that of an Islamic Republic, endorsed by the people of Iran on the basis of their longstanding belief in the sovereignty of truth and Qur'anic justice, in the referendum of Farwardin 9 and 10 in the year 1358 of the solar Islamic calendar, corresponding to Jamadi al-'Awwal 1 and 2 in the year 1399 of the lunar Islamic calendar (March 29 and 30, 1979], through the affirmative vote of a majority of 98.2% of eligible voters, held after the victorious Islamic Revolution led by the eminent marji' al-taqlid, Ayatullah al-Uzma Imam Khumayni.

Article 2

The Islamic Republic is a system based on belief in:

1.the One God (as stated in the phrase "There is no god except Allah"), His exclusive sovereignty and the right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
2.Divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;
3.the return to God in the Hereafter, and the constructive role of this belief in the course of man's ascent towards God;
4.the justice of God in creation and legislation;
5.continuous leadership (imamah) and perpetual guidance, and its fundamental role in ensuring the uninterrupted process of the revolution of Islam;
6.the exalted dignity and value of man, and his freedom coupled with responsibility before God; in which equity, justice, political, economic, social, and cultural independence, and national solidarity are secured by recourse to:
1.continuous ijtihad of the fuqaha' possessing necessary qualifications, exercised on the basis off the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Ma'sumun, upon all of whom be peace;

Article 2

The Islamic Republic is a system based on belief in:

1.the One God (as stated in the phrase "There is no god except Allah"), His exclusive sovereignty and the right to legislate, and the necessity of submission to His commands;
2.Divine revelation and its fundamental role in setting forth the laws;
3.the return to God in the Hereafter, and the constructive role of this belief in the course of man's ascent towards God;
4.the justice of God in creation and legislation;
5.continuous leadership (imamah) and perpetual guidance, and its fundamental role in ensuring the uninterrupted process of the revolution of Islam;
6.the exalted dignity and value of man, and his freedom coupled with responsibility before God

Fine, have it your way. Text from the BofC website, links from elsewhere, unless too numerous to list, so I default to Michael Moore's page, full of links from government sources and the like.

1953: U.S. overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran. U.S. installs Shah as dictator. Declassified CIA report, same uncensored report linked from a slashdot article.

1954: U.S. overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala. 200,000 civilians killed. CIA documents from 1954 pertaining to Guatemala as well as book excerpt and newspaper article.

1963: U.S. backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem. President Johnson once called him "the Churchill of Asia" in 1961. Wikipedia and two books

1963-1975: American military kills 4 million civilians in Southeast Asia.

September 11, 1973: U.S. stages coup in Chile. Democratically elected president Salvador Allende assassinated. Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed. 5,000 Chileans murdered. Common knowledge, its in a ton of books (excerpt)and movies

1977: U.S. backs military rulers of El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorans and four American nuns killed. (Chomsky) and full reports (another), and a piece by William Blum

1980's: U.S. trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets. CIA gives them $3 billion. --Reagan invited Afghani leaders to the white house, and said they were like the US' "founding fathers."

1981: Reagan administration trains and funds "contras". 30,000 Nicaraguans die. --Orchestrated by Oliver North from the White House

1982: U.S. provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians. Sworn affadavits by members of National Security council. Photo of Tariq Aziz at White House with Reagan. More evidence.

1983: White House secretly gives Iran weapons to help them kill Iraqis. --Part of Iran-contra

1989: CI