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Iran Has Put a Satellite Into Orbit
Dekortage writes "'Dear Iranian nation, your children have placed the first indigenous satellite into orbit,' announced Iran's President Ahmadinejad yesterday. The satellite, named Omid ('hope'), was launched to coincide with the 30th anniversary of the Islamic revolution. Video shown on Iranian television shows a Safir-2 rocket rising into the sky, as a follow-up to a test firing last August."
If this is true and the satellite reached escape velocity you have just demonstrated that Iran can drop a warhead on any city worldwide.
Super happy fun times to come, good job on easing tensions.
"To any truly impartial person, it would be obvious that I am right."
I dunno, but I'd like to see some third party confirmation before I believe that Iran has a satellite in orbit. Launching a satellite and putting it in orbit is a tricky thing to do; only a few countries have managed it, and none the size or technology level of Iran, IIRC.
Honestly, look at this list. One of these things in not like the others.
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Number of wars started by Iran in the past couple hundred years: 0
Number of wars started by Israel...
Hopefully this advancement will help protect Iran from future acts of Israeli terrorism.
I don't recall Iran invaded any other country in recent history so I don't feel frightened by their satellites or missiles, nuclear or not. And before anyone starts hysterical comments on what this or that Iranian politician said (on USA, Israel, ...) , lets not forget what other politicians said and did to Iran (including supporting Saddam's attempt to invading Iran, open military threats by Bush, Obama, Sarko, ...).
839*929
The real achievement here may be that religion was instrumental in space flight.
iran doesnt invade any country actively, but they invade them through the religious terorrist organizations they fund. hezbollah, hamas, ibda-c, numerous groups trying to invade pakistan, afghanistan are just a few.
much more annoying and dangerous.
Read radical news here
The satellite, named Omid ("hope")
Omid for peace.
I'd take Iran at face value for everything they say. They are going to get a nuclear capability. They are going to get a delivery system. They are going to act to expand their values world wide. Israel is only the beginning.
We should not be surprised with this. The Western nations have been at odds with Islamic nations for 1500 years, and with Persia for nearly 3000. That Persia now Iran is acting up again is hardly a surprise. One might surmise that in the grand scheme of things, this is just a conflict between ideologies and peoples and no one side is right, but the thing is, since most of us are westerners, we would prefer that our side prevail.
To that end, I suppose that those who would argue that strategic missile defense cannot be built, or that militarization of space should be avoided, or that Iran is not a threat, need to rethink that. And similarly, those that would advocate war with Iran, might need to rethink that as well. This now a game where tens of millions of people might get killed, not just thousands.
This is my sig.
But the real test will be if the Iranians can launch a successor capable of flinging a shoe at an American satellite.
Or maybe your stereotypes are wrong? What one thing is not like the others? I don't see why India can launch a satellite in 1980, but Iran cannot 30 years later.
Lies about crimes
The mark of a civilised mind would be to celebrate this achievement. Those gripped by tribal paranoia, searching for ways to disparage the Iranians should take a good look at themselves (I'm mainly looking at you now Americans). Relax, I've played football with some Iranian guys seen for myself in the shower, their dicks are not significantly bigger than the average Western male.
before Israel gets all the fun and does it first
We also need to embargo movie special effects software and computers!
Isn't this the same group that got caught releasing doctored photos when one of their missile launchers failed to fire? Maybe they cut the video feed right before the satellite exploded.
from cnn:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/02/03/iran.satellite/index.html
"The United States has confirmed that Iran launched a low-earth orbit satellite on Monday night, two U.S. officials told CNN's Barbara Starr. "
And as you tread the halls of sanity, You feel so glad to be, Unable to go beyond. I have a message, From another time..
Satellite technology isn't interesting from a political standpoint. It's launcher technology that is interesting, because that's the tricky part in making ICBMs.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
Whatever you do, don't you DARE go to sleep at night feeling unafraid! That just wouldn't me American of you!
FEAR the terr'ists!
FEAR peanutbutter!
FEAR powdered milk!
FEAR barrack obama's muslim faith!
FEAR a friggin arabic TV satellite...
Once someone accepts that iran/usa/china/$dickwad/uganda could get anything small enough to fit on the back of a pickup truck to pretty much anywhere in the world if they -really- put their mind too it, it's a lot easier to not give a shit about this sort of thing.
The next 50 years or so are going to be a serious wake up call to the west and the US in particular I think. We have enjoyed a technological advantage over the rest of the world for a good while now but it is being eroded at a fantastic rate. That advantage has allowed us to push the rest of the world and I fear that will come back to haunt us. Back when the west was first launching things into space the knowledge, skill and equipment needed to build such machines was exceedingly difficult to come by. It's still not easy to launch a payload into space but the equipment required to build a launch vehicle is no longer hard to come by and the knowledge and skill can be fairly easily "bought".
I used to have a better sig but it broke.
I have never heard of a ballistic missile that could not be tracked back to its point of origin. That means if Iran ever launches a missile as a weapon it'll be her last.
"Acting up"? *Sigh* Why do I respond to trolls?
Go read a bit of modern Iranian history, before you fall back on stereotypes of Islam-vs-the-rest-of-the-world. If it hadn't been for our meddling (oh, overthrowing governments, oil grabs etc--none of this is controversial), Iran would not be in confrontation with us today. Twenty years after the revolution, they tried peace overtures, but Bush decided instead to dub them an "Axis of Evil" (wow, thank god our era of world-as-cartoon presidents is over). I can't understand your claim of Iran expanding its values into Israel.
We have no right to overthrow other people's governments, and even less right to act surprised when they get pissed over it. And speaking of Israel: when they behave all might is right, others are going to try to acquire might to counter that.
Lies about crimes
Iran now has the ability to nuke anywhere in the world.
If this is indeed the case it was to be expected after they way they've been treated. I mean; they signed the treaty which grants the signing party to perform nuclear research and development as long as its not going to be used for war purposes. The world watched it happening and even cheered them back then for doing so. Then, many years later, Iran actually started on the path to develop nucleair power and all of a sudden the signed treaty wasn't worth a dime anymore and they had to be monitored, stopped, belittled, etc. Ofcourse; some of this bullshit came from the former president of the US, someone who I consider to be a war criminal, but even so; the rest of the world once again stood there and watched.
Sidenote: and its not as if Iran solely started doing nuclear research for what they state to be research into new ways of energy gathering. For people reading the news they could have seen Iranian delegations all over the world looking into other and different ways to maintain and generate energy. You've had these people in Germany, looking into a small farmers village which managed to recycle all the doodoo's left by the animals. All that shit (phun intended) is gathered in a central "stove" after which the warmth is transported to surrounding buildings. We've seen delegates in Holland (which gave a small upstir) looking into the likes of wind energy. You've seen delegates informing and debating some of the recent accidents with windmills, etc, etc. There are dozens of clear cases where its obvious that Iran is looking into these things. And here, the arrogant West, struddles along ignoring all the facts and goes "no, you can't do that (researching nuclear power).".
So well, duuh. Isn't it sorta obvious that they'll be putting effort into other kinds of researches as well? Especially at this time where they can start putting some pressure onto the rest of the world. Do note that I'm not saying that I like it, but I sure can understand where this is coming from and why. Well, maybe not fully but the overall picture sure seems clear to me.
Best "remedy" for this (possible) "problem" is IMO to start treating these guys seriously for a change instead of labeling them as the "axe of all evil" no matter what they do. Its the only way to get things to settle down a little. You may not agree with them, but there are more (diplomatic) ways of showing that than by force or showing muscles. In fact; diplomacy is bound to give a much longer lasting effect. Just look at the middle east.. Clinton's diplomacy (at least 8 years back) managed to create a somewhat stable situation years after the moment. It only had to be maintained to last, but you-know-who didn't think that was a priority and as such we're in the same shit again. So... I'd say the time for diplomacy has come again.
That the US and the "west" isn't so special? That smart humans exist in other parts of the world? Yes, let us wake up indeed.
Ah, cool. Thanks for that. I didn't see any references like that when I was reading about it.
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Well aren't all man equal?
If so then all men have the right to defend them self using the same type of weapons.
So unless you are from a country without nuclear weapons and intercontinental missiles you have no right to talk.
And here I thought that US had a monopoly on Hope.
Reviewing just the first hour of video games.
A toast to Jimmy Carter on a job well done. Go ahead, mod me down - sigh -
Conservative, mod down for violating
Why they'd want to be on the U.S. and Soviet target list is beyond me though. Being a nuclear power today (even a nuclear superpower) is risky business, no matter how you slice it.
Respect. The USA does not treat countries without nukes with the same kind of respect as they do otherwise.
Over the years and especially after two Presidents with the name of "Bush" I have changed my point of view drasticly.
Those who warned about the "American Imperialism" had been right all along and if I became head of state somewhere I would terminate the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty right away.
Martin
... always trying to frame honest Iranian folk, just so they could find a casus belli so they could get their grubby little hands on their sweet, sweet oil.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/02/03/iran.satellite/index.html
The United States has confirmed that Iran launched a low-earth orbit satellite on Monday night, two U.S. officials told CNN's Barbara Starr. There were no indications of any weapons activity on the two-stage rocket, although the rocket is capable of launching long-range weapons, the officials said.
Do I need to point out that I am being sarcastic, or is someone just going to slap me with a flame/troll combo?
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/02/03/iran.satellite/index.html [cnn.com]
The United States has confirmed that Iran launched a low-earth orbit satellite on Monday night, two U.S. officials told CNN's Barbara Starr.
There were no indications of any weapons activity on the two-stage rocket, although the rocket is capable of launching long-range weapons, the officials said.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
They also constantly invade their neighbors with other religious terrorist organizations they fund: settlers, Mossad and IDF.
Oh, wait, that's Israel, and they have a huge lobby here. Nevermind, strike that.
Lies about crimes
Good for you guys on launching your first satellite. It marks your entry into an elite club of nations that coincidentally also consists of most of your enemies. Perhaps we could solve some of these diplomatic situations with a good, old-fashioned trade in technology?
They're not dear to me!
It's not a very difficult engineering problem.
Riiiight... That's why the term "rocket scientist" is used as a synonym for intelligence - because the engineering is so easy anyone can do it...
Oh wait, it requires expertise in (per wikipedia) fluid mechanics, structural mechanics, orbital mechanics, flight dynamics, physics, mathematics, control engineering, materials science, aeroelasticity, avionics, reliability engineering, noise control, and flight testing among other domains. Yeah, real easy.
Was being lazy...after digging a little
"Two objects from the launch, likely the Omid satellite and part of its booster, are circling Earth in oval-shaped orbits.
The orbits range in altitude from low points of 153 miles to high points of 235 miles and 273 miles. The orbital inclination is 55.5 degrees, according to U.S. military tracking data."
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sfn-090203-iran-satellite-launch.html
Watch one of our top secret military satellites blast it out of operation ;-)
teh funny, also those other latin terrorist groups, el old burrito and los chimichanga
Why mess with a launch and guidance system able to withstand launch and reentry stresses when you could just build a Fat Man and put it in the back of a van?
Because the missile is better.
It doesn't take more than a half an hour to hit the USA. It doesn't have any risks in transportation. You can't practically recall a ballistic missile after it has been launched. You can launch a missile ad-hoc, and finally, a missile launched high above the USA fries all of our electrical shit. Fatman in the truck can't do any of that.
The smuggled weapon in the back of the truck, on the other hand, requires every single person on the way to not notice, or actively participate in the delivery of the weapon. And, it's less effective militarily.
The thing about container ships, is that there are not that many of them, as they are so big these days, that stopping them and tracking them is actually pretty practical. You can monitor a ship as its sailing all the way from Iran or an Arabian port all the way to the USA. You can fly geiger counters over it and around it to look for neutrons coming out of it. There's just way more risk for the delivery and its not a good deterrent.
Defense is not the solution, and security theater is just a waste
If defense is not the solution, then why preach birth control? Defense doesn't solve everything, but it does increase the probability of failure to an attacker, so that he or she won't attack, and also reduces the likelihood of the attacker of spreading that attack to other parties. To put it another way, if Hitler had been stopped in France, do you think he still invades Russia?
This is my sig.
And, if Iran launches on Israel, the end. Of Iran.
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Some US Gov sources claim launch was a failure:
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN1927773920080819
Nowadays, I understand that tracking information on satellites is pretty much in the public domain. Anybody got a link for a track on this one?
What part exactly in "Tue Aug 19, 2008" didn't you understand? Yeah that's it, that's the date of the article you linked. Since you look a bit challenged I'll take the opportunity to remind you than we are in 2009...
From The Beeb: Mr Ahmadinejad said the satellite was launched to spread "monotheism, peace and justice" in the world.
Interesting. I wonder how the polytheist countries feel about this?
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hezboullah and hamas kill lebanese and palestinians regularly. after israel's last response in gazza, 150 palestinians who supported fatah were gathered and tortured. numerous were killed, or maimed by guns as an 'example'. it doesnt matter who are they fighting - a terrorist organization has a life of its own. its basically a fascist level rigid hierarchy ideological organization
Read radical news here
You shouldn't have slept through history class. The incident took place during Eisenhower's presidency.
has nothing to do with being pro-israel, or pro-western, or anti-muslim
suspicion of iran has to do with it being a theocracy. doesn't matter that it is a muslim or christian theocracy, or whether it is located in the middle east, or south america, or antarctica. the issue is it being a theocracy. begnning of valid concern about iran, end of valid concern about iran
if someone is concerned about iran, it very well could be for mindless ethnocentrism, religious bigotry, or tibal chest thumping reasons. it is very easy to be concerned about iran for the lowest and most disgraceful reasons
but someone can also be concerned about iran simply from a strictly globalist, humanist, universal, highminded reason:
a theocracy is a very bad thing
why?
we are talking about a government that has, ensconced in its constituion, a bunch of grumpy old men, who are above all law or ability to be questioned, who act in the name of god, and have a monopoly on interpretting the will of god, according to law. that doesn't bother you?
power in iran is not ahmadinejad. power is in the ayatollahs. ahmadinejad is a figurehead. he does not hold the final power. the ayatollahs can freely choose to disavow any candidate form office, and have done so exorbitantly in past elections to disallow popular reform candidates from running
would you consider it a problem if the pope could, without any ability to question or veto his decision, walk into the elections in germany, or the usa, or great britain, and simply cherry pick the candidates he wants to run?
again, the problem is not islam. the problem is not the middle east. the problem is not being anti-israeli. the problem is not being anti-western. all of these instincts are perfectly valid and defensible world views
the problem is with iran being a THEOCRACY. on that issue alone, is suspicion of iran perfectly valid, from either a pro-western or anti-western point of view
pay attention to the below text... this government is going to get a nuclear warhead:
http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-1.html
so these grumpy old men, with a monopoly on intepretting what the will of god is, are about to get control over a nuclear warhead
and people wish to say that if you are concerned about this, you must be some brain dead tribal pro-western muslim hater?
really?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Congratulations Iran! I wish you the best of luck in your scientific endeavors.
For those of us that worked in the Defense Industry, this is a classic. For those that are new, you can probably appreciate this.
This WAV is from a military training video on missile guidance.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
"Considering that you can deliver a ~1kt warhead from off of a satellite platform..."
Is that an actual explosive warhead, or is that just dropping an object from several miles in the sky? Seems to me that if you have a sufficiently massive object (which doesn't necessarily have to be very large - maybe 100 or 200 kg), and it doesn't burn up during re-entry, it's gonna do some substantial damage just from kinetic energy at impact. It'll probably reach terminal velocity before it reaches the ground, so we probably cannot use E = m g h for the energy of the projectile, but we can use E = m v^2 (if we knew the terminal velocity of the projectile). I don't know the terminal velocity, but I can guess it would be moving pretty fast if dropped from a satellite, so it's gonna have a pretty substantial v^2 value. It might not have the energy to destroy a whole city, but I bet it could take out a couple city blocks. . .
Of course, all this assumes that the Iranians have the materials science and engineering capability to actually build something that won't burn up during re-entry, and can be accurately delivered to a target from the satellite.
its their government thats the problem
concern about a theocracy having nuclear weapons is a perfectly valid concern
yes, many who are concerned about iran are blindly ethnocentric, or religiously bigotted
but its also possible to be concerned about a theocracy with nukes, without being pro or anti muslim, or pro or anti western, or pro or anti anything
that iran is muslim is not the problem
that iran hates israel is not the problem
that iran hates the west is not the problem
that iran is full of persians is not the problem
that iran is a THEOCRACY with NUCLEAR weapons is what bothers me
that doesn't bother you?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I don't see Iran going to the American with: "Hi, we would like to put our spy satellite in orbit. We want to know what you are up to in our region of the world. Can you help us?"
before u.s. ever thought about using them against ussr.
it started around in 1920s.
Read radical news here
That list is so redudant, A) every thing on the list is a subset of mathematics
I am an engineer and if you think engineering is nothing more than a subset of mathematics you don't understand engineering. There are many aspects to engineering that have nothing whatsoever to do with mathematics. With a little poetic license math could rightly be called the language of engineering but that does not make engineering a sub domain of mathematics. Math is indispensable to the study and practice of science and engineering but don't ever confuse the the tool with the discipline.
Why don't you tell us, assuming you're from the West somewhere? Islam doesn't regard Christianity as strictly monotheistic because of the whole son of god and trinity business. Monotheism is really just a code word for Islam. And it's not just a question for polytheists. Atheists aren't monotheistic either.
Riiiight... That's why the term "rocket scientist" is used as a synonym for intelligence - because the engineering is so easy anyone can do it...
I've heard that the pinnacle of intelligence is to become a "rocket surgeon"... a risky chimera of rocket scientist and brain surgeon! Although at the Urban Dictionary it can actually mean the exact opposite.
Interestingly enough, Iranians have educated some successful neurosurgeons.
"Sum Ergo Cogito"
All of those are just applied mathematics.
Actually most of them are applied SCIENCE aka engineering. Huge difference.
Ahmadinejad went on to say "Our satellites will block out the sun."
Nixon sold Chinese weapons to Afghanistan in 1979? Really?
You been hanging out with Phelps? Because it sure sounds like you been smoking something good.
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I think an openly theocratic government, that has called for the extermination of other religions' believers, and in possession of nuclear weapons, is exceedingly dangerous. I bet every nuclear power in the region is on Launch On Warning status right now.
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Before some nation blasts it out the sky?
- Dan
Strange times.
There was a time when remarks such as above would be called "racism". In 2009, you can claim that over a billion people support "really imperialist expansionist murderous ideology" that causes "constant massacres".
As if the western democracies never drop the odd cluster bomb, or as if Russians don't do any bad.
It's just a matter of propaganda... and the writer above is a scary brainwashed individual... and if there would be a button for it, I'd have reported it as unacceptable language.
At least put a fucking undo button there, so that when I screw up I don't have to undo it like this.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Oh, I know. Their pants are on fire.
to make the turban on the Satellite survive escaping the atmospehere?
And how'd they get the camel moving that fast anyway?
I just had to go there.
Pax Vobiscum
They have probably forgotten that we engineered a coup to overthrow their democratically elected government and replaced it with a dictator. I doubt they'll still be mad about that. We should be safe! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat
Im really excited about this news. It's nice to know developing nations are on their way to ICBM nuclear arsenals. I figure the more people with nukes the better because nuclear apocalpyse is awesome. I already got my sand goggles and tattered leather jacket ready.
Iran could have nukes anytime they wanted. May already have them. Has called, repeatedly, for the extermination of the Jews, and of various polytheists, plus certain Christians.
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OK, so NORAD has confirmed it. But how about NetCraft?
Historically, Canada is the only first world country to have given another (in this case, India), the means to create its own nuclear weapons.
Sure, it was 1974 when India first used a nuclear weapon, but that caused Pakistan to panic trying to make their own nuclear weapon. AQ Khan, the chief nuclear scientist of the Pakistani program, admitted himself that he gave nuclear weapons technology to North Korea and Iran. And, of course, we have the mess that we have today with Iran's nuclear program.
So please, don't sit there and tell me that Canada is innocent or responsible. In fact, it is widely acknowledged in the Eastern hemisphere that Canada giving a historically aggressive country like India a nuclear reactor capable of generating nuclear materials for weapons is the single most irresponsible international act since the start of the Cold War.
For all the bad things we hear about Iranians (most of which are very likely to be true), there is one fact that should stand out: Iran has never started a war in centuries, if not millennias.
Sure, killing gays is bad, stiffling freedom of speech is bad, beating women for not wearing the right clothes is bad, and I'm forgetting a lot of very bad things.
Still, on the evil-o-meter, for all the great buzzwords the United States and its affiliates such as Israel claim ("Democracy!" "Freedom!" "Capitalism!"), one thing stands.
War is the ultimate evil.
Murder is evil, rape is evil, theft is evil, deportation is evil, destruction is evil. But war's got it all, as judge Jackson pointed out during the Nuremberg trials.
Past performance is no guarantee that they won't, this time, start a war. But if I were to bet all my money on a pointless bet, I'd wage that the end of the world is to start when noted war criminal and all around right wing nutbag Netanyahou, as the most likely next PM of Israel, is going to start it all by attacking Iran. Not the scaaary iranian boogeymen.
hehe and the dictators they put in place in Africa and asia, the warlords in central asia, the de-stabilizing policies of funding both sides of the conflict then coming in and putting a military base isn't imperial ??? yeah your delusional !
as for 'fighting' world war 1.... yeah just came in at the end to take the credit but it is well knowen that usa had its rightful place as a back water before then
Not respecting international law - check.
Killing civilians - check.
Stealing land - check.
Killing UN observers - check.
Bombing UN buildings - check.
Using people as human shields - check.
You can't be speaking of Iran, because Iran hasn't made any threats to "wipe neighbors off the map". Its president, however, has expressed the wish that the "régime occupying Jerusalem vanish from the pages of time." That's the direct translation agreed on by non-partisan sources.
Wiping neighbours off the map? BS propaganda.
Hilariously disgusting. The Sandinistas were democratically elected. The contras are generally acknowledged as "death squads," and not just by "liberals" in MS.
Furthermore the US has been sentenced to pay $1 billion by the International Court of Justice in restitution, which it refuses to pay.
Stick that right wing murderous propaganda up yours.
nt means no text
We're not trying to fend off another superpower. No one says that. What we're trying to do is keeping an occasional nuke launched our way by a bunch of crazy mullahs from turning into casus beli for a genocidal retaliation. It's about, trying to keep a bunch of crazy mullahs from killing a lot of civilians and on -both- sides.
If Iran launches a nuke at us, and we shoot it down, there's no harm, and therefor, no foul. I mean, yeah, we might bomb them or something but its not like it would demand the same reaction as if they took out New York City.
SDI gives a President a chance to avoid having to order the retaliatory murder of millions of people. That's all its for. I think President Obama would rather be able to say that he shot down an Iranian nuclear missile, than, say, he ordered the destruction of Tehran in retaliation for the destruction of New York City.
SDI is expensive, but, its not like its bailout the bank money. But I think that, if it gives us even a chance to save millions of lives, then, we should take it. No tool solves every problem, but SDI can be a valuable tool for a President to have.
This is my sig.
there is this common belief that any motivation based on fear is wrong. but there really is nothing wrong with the emotion of fear. fear keeps you alive. fear based on IRRATIONAL beliefs is of course wrong. but my fear of iran is based on a RATIONAL determination: a theocracy with nuclear weapons is the last thing this world needs
seriously, if you are not scared of a theocracy of nuclear weapons, what are you scared of? i would go so far as to say that if you are not scared of a theocracy with nukes, there is something wrong with you
this doesn't validate all of the irrational fears people have in this world. but even for the most rational of persons, there exists a subset of considerations for which the emotion of fear is a completely valid response
there is something very wrong with someone who is afraid of irrational things. equally so, there is something very wrong with someone isn't afraid of anything. it's like not feeling pain: at first glance, not feeling any pain seems to have nothing but upside. until you consider the scenarios of picking up a hot skillet, or cutting yourself with a chainsaw: pain keeps you alive. likewise, having no fear seems like a good thing, until you consider all of the scenarios where fear keeps you alive
someone who goes through life afraid a lion is going to jump out of the shadows at any moment and attack them is not defensible. but being afraid when an actual genuine lion is actually jumping out at you is perfectly appropriate, valid, and preferable
the emotion of fear is not the problem, fear of irrational things is the problem, and the two concepts are different
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
North Korea's test explosion was most likely a fizzle yield, thus, they don't quite have this "atomic bomb" thingy quite down. And they fact that they haven't tested again tells you that they used up all their fissile material.
In reality, North Korea is heavily armed with *conventional* armaments. That, combined with their extreme close proximity to South Korea, a close ally, democratic nation, and prosperous country are a lot more compelling arguments for containment than a non-functioning atomic bomb.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
This is not going to be a popular opinion on a USA centric website, but as a Russian I sincerely congratulate Iran on their significant achievement. We have almost completed the Busher nuclear power plant for them and I have many friends among Iranian students studying over here, I hope they return home and help to continue the scientific advancement of the Islamic Republic. Iran, not the fucking backwards Saudi Arabia is a true leader and hope of the Muslim world. Keep it up, guys!
US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
Of course, there's no way Iran could have faked this (again). :-)
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Really, grow up. War isn't a game.
I think it is maybe perceived more so by the USA as the majority of their citizens have not experienced a modern war on their own mainland territory. For many people in other countries the experience of war is more direct and people are less likely to be so gung-ho about it. Mainland USA was untouched in the major conflicts of the twentieth century. While terrible events were unfolding the lights were on in Main Street, small town America and you could walk down that street eating ice cream as if nothing was happening. I honestly believe this has given Americans a profoundly different idea of what a war is from the majority of the rest of the world.
Don't talk lightly of wars, they are certainly not games.
You lied in the treaty of Prüm you want to rule over all of Europe, don't you?
-- A trench-digging German
it is of course, of questionable and dubious intermingling of church and state on a strictly symbolic level. but what the usa does have is a clear and explicit command to separate church and state, which has been bourne out by numerous judicial rulings for decades
i guess you could say that it is kind of like how north korea is officially called the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK)" when of course, it is a petty despotic dictatorship and doesn't have anything remotely democratic about it
or the fact that china is ruled by a communist party... that currently embraces the most capitalist philosophy in the world
all of which could go to show that surface level symbolism speaks very little about the actual substance of how a government works
no, the usa is not anywhere near a theocracy
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Oh shit! A Bomb-Satellite!
This notion that we must intervene in any government we don't like is exactly why we're in the position we're in now with the Middle East.
We don't like Mossadeq, we intervene to overthrow him, despite his being democratically elected. Khomeini replaces our hand-picked Shah, so we support Saddam Hussein in his ridiculously unjust war against Iran.
This is the most obvious example; but we've been through this in a half-dozen South American countries as well. We have no sense of time in this country. We don't take the long view of anything, anything at all.
And by the way, I do remember the Cold War. I've done a duck and cover drill. I've been afraid of the Russians. We acted with more measure and reason when we worried about the killing the planet. As it is now, we'll do anything if it just involves killing regionally.
Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
I can't understand your claim of Iran expanding its values into Israel.
I think the GP was tongue-in-cheek. Iran's government doesn't officially recognize Israel and Iran's president has publicly stated he desires Israel's government to collapse. Though he has also said pursing nuclear bombs is against his religion ... I think you'd agree turning Israel into a glass crater is one way to do so. There are of course less violent ways. But recent history has shown radical Islamists seem to prefer violence to emphasize their beliefs and have little regard to themselves or others.
They don't need ICBMs to nuke Israel of course ... they already have missiles that can hit Israel without difficulty. Iran has much to gain from political posturing though, and again, this launch is one way to do so. Whether or not they intend to actually create ICBMs isn't clear ... but what is definitely clear is that Iran intends to become a world player.
While the intent of Ahmadinejad's statement can still be debated, it is almost certain that it was mistranslated to some degree. This article covers the various opinions about what the proper translation should have been.
As a side note, I seem to recall Ahmadinejad not being particularly concerned with correcting the mistranslation, as it played well to his political base.
"I'm an atheist and a pretty cynical person and I seriously doubt that The Pope, Osama, or Iranian Ayatollahs actually believe in God"
serious reality adjustment needed: that you are cynical does not mean the world is cynical. this is some serious teenager level self-referential psychology going on here
there are a wide range of mindsets out there in the world. some of them, no, most of them, diverge radically from your worldview and your attitudes, for better or worse
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Ahmm - what about those 5 states you took from Mexico?
On dicovery channel I recently saw a report about one of our heads of state which had his election payed and fixed by the USA. No they did not fix the votes - the USA swamped us with advertising until we elected the Adenauer into office.
Pretty similar to what happened in Ukrania recently.
This doesn't seem to be an aggressive act, and it isn't directly threatening to me or mine, so I say way to go Iran, good job, etc. But this does raise a question I've been pondering, namely what direction would muslim astronauts face while praying?
whose political party is the christian democratic union
surface level symbolism versus social reality
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Iran is now up to speed with 1957 Russia.
"If Theocracies are so bad, why aren't you worried about Tibet?"
tibet as sovereign entity doesn't exist, and its theocratic structure has been outlawed by the chinese. but were tibet an independent theocracy with nukes, i would be equally worried about it as i am about iran. conversely, if iran were still a theocracy, but didn't have nukes, i wouldn't be nearly as worried about iran as i am
"Seriously, bigotry is the problem, not Theocracy"
this is like saying cancer is a problem, not heart attacks. they are both fatal problems
"While I think that there are better methods of administration, the types of democracy that we have in most western countries are not participatory nor representative... it is effectively a mediaocracy."
this is called self-disenfranchisement. your belief merely supports your own lack of accountability, and has no value when applied to the society you live in (assuming you live in a western country). you are projecting self-referential psychology like a teenager onto those aroud you. no, those around you are perfectly capable of believing and seeing the realit yof their vote mattering, and their opinion tyo be independent. this may not be true of you, but it is true of plenty in your society. i just voted for barack obama 3 months ago. where is my lack of participation or representation?
and what the heck is a "mediaocracy"? ultimate power rests in an editorial news room? a meaningless buzzword
in the west, i can choose to consume any media i like. this includes al jazeera or iran's mouthpiece, if i choose to. now, if i lived in iran, meanwhile, and i clicked on those links, and they pointed to the bbc or the new york times, i would be blocked, and perhaps even reported for unislamic activities, for not sticking with the governing parties official media. is that the "mediaocracy" you are talking about?
"Knowledge and culture sharing are a better solution that trying to stop nukes"
yes, and world war ii would have never happened if hitler and tojo were given hugs and kisses. pffft. man i need some of what you are smoking
"The whole clash of cultures idea is also patently absurd"
in some subsaharan cultures, they perform clitorectomies on female children. do you have a problem with that? congratulations, you are engaging in a clash of cultures
"it's clash of money and oil interests in the upper echelons of both so-called empires at the expense of their own peoples that is the real problem."
how did you get to work or school today? did you ride a car or bus? do you have a job or do you pay for school? in either case, you have money and oil interests. but you have this absurd idea that only the "upper echelons" are the ones gobbling up money and oil just because its cool in a hollywood bad guy sort of way. or, perhaps, governments are concerned with access to resources and the flow of capital, for the rightful reason of the well-being of their citizens. could that be it? nah...
"I, for one extend my hand of congratulations to the Iranian people and look very suspiciously at those who would tell them what to do/think/go to war over."
i agree with you 100%. i am glad you are finally ready to stand with me and condemn the ayatollahs and their constant war propagandizing of the iranian people
"Ditto applies to the American administration (and anyone else who is spineless enough not to sign the nuclear disarmament treaty),"
absolutely, we need to engage in nuclear disarmament. how does belief in that allow for iran getting nukes? iran should get nukes because the usa has them? ok, you can believe that if you want
but now you are expressing belief in nuclear proliferation. make up your mind, but you can't believe in nuclear disarmament and iran getting nukes at the same time. either you insist iran not get nukes and the usa get rid of them, or that the usa keep its nukes and iran get them too. but saying the usa
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Wow Iran demonstrated they have technology that's 50 years behind ours. "Way to go" to them. *one handed clap*
during the cold war the essence of MAD was that the russians loved their children too. and therefore, would not nuke the west. and visa versa
in iran's war with iraq, they gave children little wooden keys around their neck, and sent them out to clean minefields. the wooden keys were so they could get to heaven
now this makes perfect sense from a fundamentalist religious point of view that heaven is superior to earth, that death for the religious cause is the highest achievement. and so from that point of view, ther eis still ove for their children. every society has such relgious fundamentalists, but only in iran are such fundamentalists the ones with the finger on the nuclear trigger finger, the ultimate arbiters of power
how can MAD work against someone who believes death is superior to life? that killing one's children is a blessing for their children? this is the philosophy of suicide bombers. suicide bombers are celebrated as martyrs in deeply religious sects rather than condemned. or just look at ancient christian iconography: all the saints who died bloody deaths: these are the heroes. again, the problem is not islam, the problem is theocracy
all religions have a story about armageddeon. and with religious fundamentalists, you see actions that are self-fulfilling prophecy. if a cult believes the end of the world is coming, they all commit suicide: they self-fulfilled their own myths
so if some ayatollah believes in the rapture of the afterlife, that the mahdi will soon come when all is afire and aflame of wickedness on the earth, why not press the button to hurry all of us along to the final judgment and the much better place?
the principle of MAD does not work on religious fundamentalists
that's why a theocracy with nukes is so scary
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The Sandinistas were not democratically elected. Period. They took over after a bloody coup of Somoza, who was a right-wing scumbag dictator, admittedly.
That doesn't change the fact that you're a propagandist for a bunch of commies.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Lebanese friends of mine got bombed by Israel in 2006. They were'nt member of Hezbollah. There never was any Hezbollah anywhere near where they lived.
As far as I'm concerned, Israel is a rogue nation and no better than a terrorist organisation. In fact, I have more respect for suicide bombers who kill themselves for their cause, no matter how foolish, than for cowardly mass murderers dropping 1 ton bombs on innocent civilians from a F16.
Last, a relative of mine was officially a terrorist and a member of a terrorist organisation.
The year was 1943. That's how the Kommandantur qualified him on his arrest warrant.
Yes, I'm making a parallel between Israel and the Nazis. I'm not the only one. People who have experienced it first hand do it too. Look up Sir Kaufman or Andre Nouschi.
but I think one could certainly argue that the US used military means to interfere with the politics of other countries to the benefit of the US and without concern for the other country's citizens.
There are other means then military which an imperialitic country can apply. Sending off CIA propaganda specialist to make shure the "right" president is elected is sufficent.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=DAR20060821&articleId=3027
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1018815.html
I find your ideas intriguing and wish to subscribe your newsletter.
Ok, so now we're no longer worried about weapons grade uranium falling into terrorists hands via Iran, but instead we are afraid they will use a nuclear ICBM (just one to begin with) to attack the western world?! Or perhaps they will lend it to their terrorist friends?? Any country that is smart enough to send a satellite, not just a rocket, into space, is unlikely to be stupid enough to attack someone with an ICBM. This is not wargames! Doesn't the US alone still have more the 50'000 active nuclear missiles? It would be self-genocide! They are more likely to use an ICBM as a threat to keep western nations from meddling. This achievement should be celebrated. Think of the scientists working on this and how proud they probably are of themselves?
Keyword there is "launched".
The success of this launch is in doubt at the moment.
Not that I particularly care either way,
If the United States is perceived as relatively inactive in the world, it is because of American Isolationism.
If the United states is seen as relatively active in the world, it is American Imperialism.
Maybe one has to find some balance then. Preferly one which does entail invading other countries and propagandering the "right" head of state into other countries office.
get the same respect that you give a rabid dog.
And there some people wonder why the USA is not flavor of the decade any more?
Fixed.
Fair enough!
*ducks and hides*
but it is most certainly not a theocracy. if you don't understand that, you don't understand what the word means
and i agree with you, us support for israel should be stopped, it is a cold war leftover from when egypt and syria sided with the ussr
but you are insane: blaming israel for 9/11 is like blaming iraqis for the usa invading iraq: if they had overthrown saddam hussein in time, the usa would not have been aggrevated by his actions to justify an invasion. this line of thinking is of course, utterly stupid. the usa is to blame for invading iraq, al qaeda is to blame for 9/11. any other creative lines of thinking about blame on such issues is incoherent
if a wife gets beaten, who is to blame? the wife? or the husband? the wife could have done a million things that made the husband beat her, but he is the one who raised the hand, therefore, he is the one to blame, 100%. you have the ultimate responsibility for the choices of actions that come out of you. anything else is bullshit
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I offer up $100 to anybody who can shoot it down.
then i can pretty much equate any concept i want with any other concept, and mean not a damn thing
which is pretty much all your comment is: propaganda without substance
dude, you can hate the west and the usa all you want, please be my guest. my only demand of you is that your thoughts show some coherence. but currently, your comments are incoherent, without meaning. try again
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
and they are trying to overthrow the government
problem is, if they ever came close to overthrowing the ayatollahs, i worry about the ayatollahs bringing on the end times with a few nukes: "if i am removed from power, i wlll remove israel from the earth, for judgment day is upon us". a normal iranian would enver do that. a religious zealot, of any religion, would do that
it does no good talking about the basic humanity and goodness of the average iranian. for it is the nature of their government our criticism is confined to. i'm certain north koreans and zimbabweans are good people too. but what of their governments? what do you say about their governments? saying iranians are nice people and that someday the government will change is just a nice way of avoiding a problem. the current theocracy in tehran is a current real genuine problem, and they shows no signs of disappearing for awhile. so you need to deal with them as they are, and not merely wait for the day they are gone. that could be decades
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
has nothing to do with being pro-israel, or pro-western, or anti-muslim
Oh really? Which election were you watching?
Though, I actually agree with that statement on one level, but only because I happen to think you're barking at a symptom of which religion is just a convenient appendage.
But that too is beside the point.
Because what are you suggesting exactly? (That's a rhetorical, so I'll go right ahead and answer that one for you.)
What you are suggesting without coming right out to say it, is that it would be Good and Proper for the West to go to war with Iran.
--By throwing our god of Christian-Corporatism at their god of Allah.
Do you honestly think that if the tables were turned in the world power game that the level of human degradation, slavery and general body count would be any lower?
Stop fomenting stupidity. You're a creepy nihilist. Not so deep down, nihilists want to see the world burn, and if the best way to achieve that is by stirring up ludicrous divisions between people through semi-clever words, (you only have to be semi-clever these days to stir people), then so be it.
Go make your film. Low budget horror, is it? I'd comment on what that says if it wasn't such a bloody obvious cliche.
-FL
The more the merrier.
that you are the propagandized one? that you are the one who is blind and prejudiced?
i went to great pains to validate my comments as neither pro-western nor anti-western, that the concerns i am raising are equally apparent in beijing, or moscow, or caracas, or toronto. i repeated this sentiment multiple times
and, completely tone deaf, all you can think about is my apparent western bias
really? what if i actually have no such bias in my words here? and the only bias is yours, your complete inability to appreciate my words as completely without regional favoritism
you may attack my concerns about theocracy from a universal global humanist level of concern, please, i welcome that sort of criticism
but you may not, if you wish to retain a grasp on any sort of intellectual coherence, attack me on my so-called phantom western bias, that you perceive in me, some sort of secret insight in to my thinking, when i am completely aware of the concept of regional bias, and went to great pains to scrub out of my comments. but you still see it there huh? you're some sort of paranoid schizophrenic secret code reader then?
there is no bias in my words. really. it was scrubbed of regional bias. it was said as an appeal to universal human concerns. get over YOUR bias, your inability to appreciate an intellectual point based on principles and absolutely free and clear of regional favoritism
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Germany is in recession. Perhaps they should lose another war to get out of it.
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
t NK is not sending money to terrorist groups like Hamas and Al-Queda
There are suspicions that North Korea sent superdollars to the IRA.
I find no link between Al Qaeda and Iran in Wikipedia articles, but since Israel supported Hamas against Fatah, anything is possible.
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
in turkey, ibda-c had rented villas, tied the people who didnt cooperate with them with their hands and feet behind their back, and left them to die in basements. then they buried them in the villas' gardens. and these people who killed were islamists too, not even others. police cleanup operation lasted 1-3 months. we watched the raids and the following horrible discoveries live, from newscasts.
that's the iran type of thing.
Read radical news here
They are building these so called 'rockets' cheaply and in a retarded way in order to show to the population how great they are. As things in Iran are becoming very bad.
The Iranian people are getting more active and rebelling. More demostrations, more clashes with the police force. They want a regime change.
So the illegal, corrupt regime of Iran are doing these things to show that they care. Just like the Soviets did and in the end they failed.
The USA, along with France, UK and Germany was the countries who supported Islamic Republic in Iran and wanted the Shah of Iran gone in the 1970s. They created this monster.
And before you say no, please think about this:
Why did Air France with permission from the France President bring Khomeini, the murderer, the child killer, the satan to Iran?
Of course, France does not do such thing without UK and USA agreeing with it as it was their "playground" too.
Fuck the Islamic Regime in Iran.
Fuck the western countries who installed this shitty regime.
I'd say it is more like the fact their leaders would think nothing of nuking Israel even if it meant the deaths of 3/4ths of their populations.
MAD doesn't apply when the leaders don't give a crap about the people under them. Our entire strategy for keeping leaders with nuclear weapons in check is the utter certainty that their countries would suffer terrible retribution. I don't believe Iran is affected by this at all. I am equally unsure that North Korea's leaders care about the civilian population. It isn't like in either case there is a chance the civilian population is going to rise up in outrage and displace their government.
What is the point of attaining all of that power, only to have it all erased in a nuclear blast? Not caring about the people they rule is not at all the same as not caring if they have a people to rule at all! Do you think Stalin gave a flying rats ass about his people for their own sake? Ha, not a chance. He intentionally starved more than died in the Holocaust, and burned through more people on the Eastern Front than all the other Allies lost combined. And yet, we were able to count on MAD to keep him and his equally callous successors in check. Because while he didn't care at all about his people as such, he did care about the power they brought him. Having his country lain to waste would eliminate that power.
You can think of the leaders of Iran as similar. They aren't going to go through all the decades-long trouble of solidifying their control of the nation, staving off aggressive neighbors, jockeying with the U.S. and other international powers, in order to build the kind of industrialized nation that can actually build a nuclear deterrent, only to throw it all away by having the entire country bombed into oblivion in response to a nuclear attack. If one quarter of the people even survived, it would still be many decades more before they could return to similar levels of power, if they ever could recover at all. Sure, Israel may be gone, but that's hardly Iran's only enemy and those enemy's would find the post-nuclear-attack Iran an easy target.
Say whatever you want about them, the leaders of Iran are not dumb. If you said you thought they were blinded by religious zealotry, you'd be wrong but I'd at least understand why you think that. Why you think the Iranian leaders would "think nothing" of throwing away their entire power base and all the advantage they had struggled to gain by building nuclear weapons on a whim, I have no idea.
The enemies of Democracy are
American Imperialism?!?!
Yeah right....ok, how many new countries have we annexed in the past couple of decades...go ahead...I'm waiting.
I honestly don't recall us taking over foreign land, and making it a new state. If you're alluding to Iraq....we're on the way out of there. They just had free elections the other day. It isn't like that is now part of the US.
Do we have influence in the world? Sure...so do other countries. But it isn't like we rule other countries.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Welcome to the club, Iran!
but germany's nonreligious ruling party is called the christian democrats, the usa with its separation of church and state starts with "in god we trust", despotic north korea is officially called the democratic people's republic, and ultracapitalist china is ruled by a communist party
all of which goes to show that surface symbolism has nothing to do with substantative reality
if you showed me how israeli candidates were first vetted by a rabbinical council, you'd have a point. but no, sorry, israel is not a theocracy
again, please, by all means, despie israel if you want to. but do it for real reasons, not made up ones
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
What shell can do that?
Censorship is obscene. Patriotism is bigotry. Faith is a vice. Slashdot 2.0 sucks.
iran doesnt invade any country actively, but they invade them through the religious terorrist organizations they fund. hezbollah, hamas, ibda-c, numerous groups trying to invade pakistan, afghanistan are just a few.
much more annoying and dangerous.
So what? All it proves is that Iran has been playing the game intelligently, as opposed to the ham-fisted Israelis and Americans. This is how one plays the Great Game and Iran has thousands of years of history and experience to fall back on. They have masterfully benefited from your idiotic George Bush and should be admired because of this. The Iranian people are rightly proud of their heritage. I have had many Iranian science students at my University where I teach and they are adamant that they are not Arabs. They are Muslims, but they have their own history and cultural identity. With this launch, in my opinion, signals that it is now too late for Israel and her backers to staunch the re-emergence of Iran as a power in the Middle East, short of a long and bloody war that will not benefit both sides. A strong, nuclear Iran would actually bring balance back into the Middle East by moderating the excesses of the already nuclear armed Israelis. This is the real reason why Israel is so against a nuclear Iran. Not because Iran is a berserker country but because Israel will now have to tread more carefully in the region.
Space Track lists two new objects in orbit with a 56 degree inclination: 2009-004A and 2009-004B (catalog numbers 33506 and 33507, respectively). AFSK telemetry supposedly from Omid are on Wikipedia.
Here is a picture of Omid, it isn't very large.
But then again, the US and its allies spent seven decades and trillions of dollars defending themselves against the world-domination schemes of the Soviet Union that was officially athiest. Their official doctrine was that it was OK if 60% of the world's population died in the revolutionary struggle, as long as the remaining 40% was communist.
On the other hand, for many years the state of Utah was a theocracy before joining the Union. And they never bothered anyone. Your theory is, well, complete cr@p.
You do realize how absurd it is to complain about people who "fall back on stereotypes" only moments before you launch into a paint-by-numbers "if it hadn't have been for oil-hungry American meddling, everything would be just great!" rant, right?
And that's to say nothing of your conclusion which... falls back on a wholly un-nuanced stereotype of Israeli foreign policy.
Brilliant stuff, really.
"Cut word lines. Cut music lines. Smash the control images. Smash the control machine." - William S. Burroughs
How about we supply the iraq government with wmd and let them lose on iran ?
Black Sabbath in case your name reflects a good taste in music are you aware it would easily make you do the gallows if Iranian?
As for Iran not being belligerent you might want to tell that to its neighbors (Syria and Russia excluded), Iraq, UAE, and Saudi Arabia in particular.
Pretty much no one in the region except Hamas and Hezbullah likes the idea of a more powerful Iran, they have their reasons for that.
What the US did or did not do is seldom the most important issue no matter what the topic (understandably this is hard to accept for Americans and those who hate them).
Iran is now up to speed with 1957 Russia.
And 1959 Russia had nuclear armed ICBMs.
I'm not saying that Iran is evil; I'm not even saying that Iran shouldn't have nuclear weapons.
All I'm saying is that the change from LEO to ICBM is a matter of reprogramming the autopilot.
My brother Omid in NO satellite! How date you, launching him into space. /me hopes that he is not next.
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
But it isn't an improvement over current (inertial) compasses unless you get the receivers 300+ meters apart.
Should be:
But it isn't an improvement over current (gyro)compasses unless you get the receivers 300+ meters apart.
"KILL THEM ALL - LET GOD SORT THEM OUT" was a fairly popular bumper sticker back when I was in Texas 20+ years ago.
God help us all if Texas ever gets nukes.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
Iran so far away....
You can't take the sky from me.
And, um, you really think we DO that to ALL the containers arriving via ships in the US?
To those of you who wrongly modded my post as Flamebait, I will explain the thinking behind my points.
Firstly, the parent was making a point about the "existence of Israel" being a threat. I wanted to clarify that the existence of anything cannot be a threat. On the contrary government actions can. While you may disagree whether those actions do or do not constitute a threat (I obviously think they do), the point that "actions by governments" are what can constitute a threat is a valid one.
Secondly, I made the point that the wholesale tarring of massive segment of the earth's population with a single brush "the Islamic world", is just as bigoted as those for example, look at the Madoff case and make comments about "the Jews". Both are trying to imply guilt by association. Madoff was bad, Madoff is a Jew, therefore Jews are bad. Hamas are bad, Hamas are muslims, therefore muslims are bad.
My last statement about continuous expansion of settlement activity is an undisputed fact.
The fact that my opinions may slant a certain way do not make my post "flamebait" they make it a legitimate contribution to the discussion as where all the parent posters - Zancarius and JWallyR).
ive got a shit stain in my underoos that smells like hot grits.
attack me on my so-called phantom western bias
Are you kidding me? I wouldn't dare imply that you had a Western Bias! What I said was that you were a, Nihilist. (Maybe you confused the two terms because they sort of rhyme if you say them fast.)
Nihilists are not capable of holding any loyalties except to their own egos. (The last thing to go as people dissolve.) You'd sell out the East, West, North or South in a heartbeat if it meant winning a few quick self-esteem points. But in order to sell, you need a cardinal point upon which to set up your card table, -which is why you were indeed promoting the West's brand of human destruction. Come on. You're embarrassing yourself. --It's not like you haven't dragged this dead horse around the block before. Are you honestly suggesting that you have since become a tweedy student with nothing but a dispassionate interest in the affairs of human kind? Nobody mouths, 'America' 'Democracy' and 'Free-Speech' with quite the same self-serving timbre as you. Geezuz. A little self-respect, man! Do I have to go pull up all the frickn' links for everybody to see?
So don't waste my time with your dumb posturing and falsetto innocence. You know exactly what you're saying and the effect it has.
And the point is this: there's another shooting war in the offing, possibly nuclear this time, and I'll be damned if we're all helped even one inch closer to it because a vile little worm like you is skulking around the playground seeking cheap and selfish ways to look cool.
-FL
New Mexico, Arizona and all the rest back then please?
Thanks.
Yours
Mexico.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Anyway, how great of your country to offer to buy something while holding a gun to the head of the seller.
Really gracious.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I can find plenty of quotes of Blix saying Iraq didn't have WMDs and I have seen several interviews in which he says as much.
He was tasked to do that work and he delivered his opinion.
Bush decided to ignore that expert, as he did with many other issues, perhaps in one of those session in which god talked to him he was told to ignore any sound evidence.
And where are the long range missiles of Saddam btw? Anybody that remembers the First Gulf War knows that Iraqi missiles were less than ideal to fight a war locally, forget about long range attacks...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Engineering without mathematics is non existent. Period.
I don't know what point you are trying to make frankly.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
SInece the US has been financing Israel for donkey years against the local arab countries.
Israel would be bankrupt without the US aid it receives, so in very real terms the US is also in a proxy war against some Arab countries if we take what you say at face value.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
They lost power and transferred power peacefully.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
It is my right when I use the Enlish language if that clarifies things.
In Spanish we have a precise word to refer to people from the USA (estadounidense), it is not our fault that the term USians use in English is imprecise, unpolite and offensive for other people of the American Continent.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Those terrorists organizations are based in places where people are fighting invading armies or opressive regimes.
No, Iran is not a loving freedom country in the sense we understand freedom, but they have logical motivations that do not include support for terrorism (Iran hates Al Quaida for example).
Iran is playing the same geopolitical game the US has been playing since it became capable of doing so, but of course we get the propaganda that favours the point of view of Western countries.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
And Pinochet (he had tea with Maggie Thatcher when visiting London).
Don't throw stones in the crystal shop of world politics ...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
With the aid of Middle East's oil.
Honestly, you are pathetic...
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Was von Braun born in Montana?
Fermi in NY?
Dunno. Just asking.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Islam regards itself as a continuation of both Judaism and Christianity.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
By definition, if it transfers power peacefully per the elections results, it's not a dictatorship.
Doggamit.
he(Stalin) didn't care at all about his people as such, he did care about the power they brought him. You can think of the leaders of Iran as similar...
Sure, Israel may be gone, but that's hardly Iran's only enemy...
Say whatever you want about them, the leaders of Iran are not dumb. If you said you thought they were blinded by religious zealotry, you'd be wrong but I'd at least understand why you think that.
The only thing correct in all this mess is that Iran's leaders are not dumb.
Q.Are they blinded by religious zealotry?
A.They used children to clear minefields in the Iraq-Iran war, and the only protection they were given were wooden keys to get them into paradise.
That answer really does change everything, and a nuclear war is the gamble being taken if you answer it wrong. There is strong enough indication towards religious blindness to make it foolhardy to blithely wave such considerations away.
Israel may be gone, but that's hardly Iran's only enemy
But here is the ugliest and riskiest corner. Iran's leadership already has continually called for the death of Israel, and actively supports terrorist and suicide attacks on Israel. There is the very real possibility that even though Israel isn't Iran's only enemy that the removal of Israel is their only goal. Yes their hand has been stayed from a direct war because they would currently lose such a conflict. That may not be self-preservation though, it might also be dedication to the elimination of Israel. Support for suicide bombers suggests it is entirely possible that if it cost their nation to eliminate Israel Iran's leadership would consider a victory for Islam and pull the trigger.
Can you really in good conscience stand idly by and hope that a nation calling for elimination of one of it's neighbors won't use the nuclear arsenal it is building to do exactly what it says it wants to do?
Q.Are they blinded by religious zealotry?
A.They used children to clear minefields in the Iraq-Iran war, and the only protection they were given were wooden keys to get them into paradise.
That answer really does change everything
No, it doesn't change anything. That's a sign of cold-bloodedness, not religious zealotry. We're talking about what the leaders believe, not what they will use to manipulate the people. Leaders throughout history have used various rationales to motivate the people, rationales they themselves did not necessarily believe. In Stalin's day, the motivation was that if you left your post on the Eastern front, the Commissar would shoot you then and there. Callous use and abuse of one's people is the common theme here. That is not the same as irrational. In fact what Iran did was very rational, though cold blooded.
There is the very real possibility that even though Israel isn't Iran's only enemy that the removal of Israel is their only goal.
No, there is no possibility whatsoever that eliminating Israel is their only goal. What they want is more power for Iran and thus for themselves. Having Iran nuked into oblivion is the complete polar opposite of that goal, no matter which enemy they are able to eliminate in the process. Remember, we agree Iran's leaders are smart? Launching a preemptive strike against Israel would be retarded, not smart. The fear that they will do so is not in any way real, it is nothing more than propaganda.
Support for suicide bombers suggests it is entirely possible that if it cost their nation to eliminate Israel Iran's leadership would consider a victory for Islam and pull the trigger.
Call me when an Iranian leader becomes a suicide bomber, and then that will make a lick of sense. Nations all over the world send their own soldiers or proxy forces into certain death. Having one completely expendable footman -- often not even Iranian -- blow themselves up does not in any way even remotely imply that they would be willing to sacrifice their country just to strike at another. In fact, supporting non-Iranian proxy-force suicide bombers in attacks on Israel is exactly how they fight Israel without risking their own country.
Can you really in good conscience stand idly by and hope that a nation calling for elimination of one of it's neighbors won't use the nuclear arsenal it is building to do exactly what it says it wants to do?
I don't have to hope that they aren't suicidal idiots. That doesn't mean we should stand idly by, it means that MAD will work to fend off any Iranian missile threat. I'd rather that threat not exist, but there's no possible way to mesh the ideas "Iran's leaders are not retards" and "Iran could launch a preemptive strike".
The only way Iran would risk losing their entire country in a nuclear exchange is if their country was already effectively lost. As in, an invading force is on the verge of success. Which means that if they do acquire nukes, nobody will be able to invade them. That is essentially why they want them.
The enemies of Democracy are
They used children to clear minefields in the Iraq-Iran war, and the only protection they were given were wooden keys to get them into paradise.
That's a sign of cold-bloodedness, not religious zealotry... Callous use and abuse of one's people is the common theme here. That is not the same as irrational.
In all honestly, strapping wooden keys to paradise on children shakes my confidence in their rationality a little.
No, there is no possibility whatsoever that eliminating Israel is their only goal.
How can you possibly say "no possibility whatsoever" when their leadership repeatedly rallies crowds in chanting "Death to Israel", commissions art work refuting the holocaust, and routinely funds, trains and arms groups that actively attack Israel? I'll readily admit they may have other goals, but exactly what evidence do you see to be so confident they do? It's one hell of a gamble to bet on them not doing EXACTLY what they say they want to do but currently lack the means.
In fact, supporting non-Iranian proxy-force suicide bombers in attacks on Israel is exactly how they fight Israel without risking their own country.
And your not in the least concerned Iran's leadership might consider arming those same proxy-forces with something a little bigger?
Remember, we agree Iran's leaders are smart? Launching a preemptive strike against Israel would be retarded, not smart.
That depends entirely on their goals and priorities.
Which means that if they do acquire nukes, nobody will be able to invade them. That is essentially why they want them.
Already the majority of people in Iran HATE their leadership. Killing a populaces children as meat shields will do that. Your painting the 'best picture' here as Iran's leadership wanting nukes so that the can't be overthrown. That's one bleak future for the Iranian people as they can look forward to living the same crushing oppression enjoyed by the average North Korean.