Domain: julianjaynes.org
Stories and comments across the archive that link to julianjaynes.org.
Comments · 8
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Question: Mind state transition...
In human evolution Julian Jaynes - http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php recognized a transition that took place from functioning in a subconscious or bicameral mind state to that of a conscious state capable of introspection and solving increasing complexity of societies problems due population growth, in essence, the creation and use of higher level abstraction in thought and language. During this transition those who had transitioned to a conscious state would employ "oracles" to return to the subconscious state for information, such as coming drought or flood, etc.. The sort of information many animals today are in touch with. i.e. crabs know to move inland prior to a huge storm making landfall at their location. Today we still have some who do "readings" and some in our past who have become well known i.e. Edgar Cayce, Nostradamus, etc.. There are also techniques like PSYCH-K http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4cV9cVa5sc that enable one to establish a communication link between their conscious and subconscious. Clearly from these we can know that religion was born out of this subconscious/bi-cameral to conscious transition. The differences being nothing more than different translation or interpretations (tower of babel fall) of what we all know subconsciously but have created belief filters (religions) for our lessor capable conscious functioning ability. We also all know higher level abstractions can be misused, innocently or more often intentionally (deception) and today we have a world wide level of protest happening against those who have done so against the majorities best interest where often religion is being used as an excuse to activate conflict..
So the question: Richard, do you recognize our current state of transition (as indicated by the wide spread protests) to the next, so to say, level? Please elaborate if you will answer.
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Re:Oh its deeper than a comic book
Primate deception in actions and basic level abstraction (sounds) but not with high level abstraction which also brought introspection and the first suicide.
Primate deception is something humans can easily overcome, but up to now, deception via high level abstraction is clearly a world wide problem leading to the current transition. And oh how things are going to change.For more on the transition of human transition to higher level abstraction see: http://www.julianjaynes.org/
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Population growth pressures society change.
This will be the third time population growth caused a major change in society.
The first time happen when population grew larger than the bicameral mind state of man could handle. We created Consciousness, the ability to create and use higher level abstractions. Higher than the base level animals share. In doing so we gave up the benefits of the bicameral mind in its ability to be in touch with nature (i.e. how crabs know to move inland before a hurricane makes landfall, Monarch butterflies every fourth generation know to go back to one location in Mexico, from the three generations before them traveling as far a Canada, etc..) But there was effort of man to keep a connection to the bicameral mind state via the job of oracles. The Tower of Babel is more a metaphor for an event that happened around the world of this population driven breakdown of the bicameral mind movement to the creation and use of higher level abstraction (consciousness) than it is a religious event. From it came introspection, the first recorded suicide and by error or intent we discovered deception and how it can be used for advantage of oneself at the possible disadvantage of another. Julian Jaynes work covers this transition of mind state Origins of Consciousness through teh breakdown of the bicameral mind
The second major change in society population growth drove was of mathematics, the abstract tool set used. The Roman Numeral system did not lend well to accounting after the population grew beyond the limits of roman numeral mathematics. The Hindu-Arabic decimal system with its zero place holder (Only a fool would think "nothing" could have value) took three hundred years to overcome the roman numeral system, though it was much easier and more powerful to use. Population growth was the motivating factor. Today the Hindu-Arabic decimal system is the universal language of society, for it defines economy.
The build-up of population pressure today is doing what? Well its become very clear our numerical abstractions which are supposed to represent value in the economy, as a tool of trade called money, have become far to manipulated and distorted to anymore be an honest representation of value. For it to be an honest representation it would be required to be able to show the less than zero real value existing for which the massive negative numbers around the world are suggesting.
Recap: we created higher level abstractions to overcome growing problems in society due population growth. Then we created a specific set of abstraction to again deal with society issues caused from growing population.Today we again are dealing with population growth issues, but this time its the breakdown of the honest use of the abstract tools we have created.
The breakdown of these abstract tools, money and language and society really beginning to fight back has and will continue to be in the news. Bank bailouts, real estate bubble burst, the trillion dollar bet, 9/11 (world trade center), Tunisia, Egypt, Wikileaks, Anonymous, Rupert Murdoch etc.
Society has gotten tired of the crap of the LESS THAN 1% screwing the rest of us... 7 BILLION.... Things are going to change...
We Do NOT Forget, We Do NOT Forgive, Expect US!
The Anonymous of a 7 billion Society...I suspect we'll find the honesty of the bicameral mind and honest advantages of the tool of abstraction...
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What he is refering to is our ability to create ..
... and use higher and higher levels of abstraction so to communicate and develope more and more refined technology that will someday allow us to advance beyond where we can see ourselves going today. To the point of enabling us to create a black hole for the purpose of its rebound effect of creating a galaxy so as to continue on the expansion of the universe for the insurance of the continuation of conscious life.... to repeat the process.
One of the things I have noticed about our evolution is that it seems to be related to population growth. As our population grows we face new problems that we must adapt to and this generally leads to advancements in social development. One recorded event is the story of the tower of Babylon and how the population growth and specialization grew to the point of a bicameral mind break down that lead to expansion and now so long after, we have come back together in population growth with further advancements.
Another interesting analogy or extension of this process is that of open source software where branching projects off to eventually bring the best of the branches back together.... and its all based on, in essence, Abstraction Physics of code development. Where the difference between human to human language and human to machine to human, is automation of human created abstractions...
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An Alternative to the DSM IV
http://www.sidis.net/nervousillscontents.htm
http://www.julianjaynes.org/index.html
If we are going to challenge the sanity of the mental health establishment, it would behoove us to employ better tools than they use. I recommend the above links. The first is a book published in 1923 by a scientist who wished to popularize his lifetime of work exploring the use of talk in curing mental illness. His name was Boris Sidis, and his ideas were apparently overshadowed by the Freud camp, so you are unlikely to know who he was. The second is a site devoted to the radical ideas of a psychologist named Julian Jaynes who presented the bulk of his ideas in a book called The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. If I am not mistaken, Jaynes' ideas are today supported by the likes of Daniel Dennett, Steve Pinker and Michael Persinger. -
Pfft. Not just thought
Even consciousness http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php
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My ListIn no particular order:
- The Selfish Gene
- Vehicles: Experiments in Synthetic Psychology
- Chimpanzee Politics
- Getting to Yes
- In a Different Voice
- The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind
- Consilience: The Unity of Human Knowledge
- The World's Religions
- Life 102: What To Do When Your Guru Sues You
- Zen Flesh, Zen Bones
Note that I don't necessarily believe everything in these books, but all of them provided me with important insights. Also, props to my 6502 assembler manual, long since turned to dust. -
Re:Religion and Belief
If I hear voices in my head, is it because of my deranged brain chemistry? Or because God is speaking to me?
Maybe you're just an earlier type of human.