Slashdot Mirror

Look, if you want them to listen to you, then calm down and don't use CAPITALS or "????!!!!" all over the place. It makes you look like a zealot with emotional problems.

Anyway... a large part of the slowness over the network are caused by the toolkit and the apps, not by the protocol itself! QT and GTK do not use the X protocol efficiently.
Until the toolkits and apps are fixed, use NX compression. I heard it does wonders and makes Mozilla usable even over a modem.

Hey harikiri, I've got a solution for your X problems: NoMachine/NX. You can see their details in their webpage where they explain them very well.

A story about it have already been posted in Slashdot and I've tried it myself with their testdrive, where they allow you to connect to a test NX server.

The core of the app is open source and you can use it freely, but their helper apps are closed source. But this is a problem being solved just now, because KDE is going to ship NX server and client support in the near future. In fact, it seems that they closed their config helper apps because it was a need for them, but they want to develop open source software.

PD: I apologise my bad english.

Hey harikiri, I've got a solution for your X problems: NoMachine/NX. You can see their details in their webpage where they explain them very well.

A story about it have already been posted in Slashdot and I've tried it myself with their testdrive, where they allow you to connect to a test NX server.

The core of the app is open source and you can use it freely, but their helper apps are closed source. But this is a problem being solved just now, because KDE is going to ship NX server and client support in the near future. In fact, it seems that they closed their config helper apps because it was a need for them, but they want to develop open source software.

PD: I apologise my bad english.

Hey harikiri, I've got a solution for your X problems: NoMachine/NX. You can see their details in their webpage where they explain them very well.

A story about it have already been posted in Slashdot and I've tried it myself with their testdrive, where they allow you to connect to a test NX server.

The core of the app is open source and you can use it freely, but their helper apps are closed source. But this is a problem being solved just now, because KDE is going to ship NX server and client support in the near future. In fact, it seems that they closed their config helper apps because it was a need for them, but they want to develop open source software.

PD: I apologise my bad english.

SSH compression is about 12:1, and pretty poor for most purposes.

There's an Open Soruce X compression scheme from NoMachine that can do 60:1 compression and benchmarks well against Citrix. Check out the Freedesktop.org X server mailing lists from last month for more info/discussion.

My school runs Citrix MetaFrame XP. It works nicely -- until something crashes. If a client crashes and reboots, you have to wait 10 or more minutes before you can login again. Internet Explorer crawls when scrolling. If you encounter one of those sites with animated ads, you're doomed - the client will freeze in an infinite loop trying to redraw the ad over and over. And the most annoying thing of them all: YOU CAN'T ALT+TAB BETWEEN WINDOWS!

Have you tried X with NX compression? It makes X usable even over a modem connection.

Nomachine makes a really awesome point-and-click X client thing for windows with a caching, compressing, X proxy on the back-end *NIX box. There's also *NIX clients, AFAIK, but the performance is supposedly similar to or better than Terminal Services. I tried it with their on-line demo Red Hat 9 machine and it worked pretty good over DSL. (On their end the machine is connected by a 256k DSL connection, last time I checked)

It's not free; but the components are GPL'd with the exception of the pretty client software, so if you're really cheap (and it's not that expensive) you could kludge something together..

There was a Slashdot article on it...

Check out NoMachine's X compression system. Performance is comparable to ICA. Its also Open Source, including clienbts for Windows. Get it here.

X is simply not useable over a low-bandwidth link such as a cell phone, compression technology or not.

A lot of the deficiencies of X over remote links lies not with the protocol, but the general suckiness and datedness of the surrounding infrastructure. NX is a framework that allows usage of the X protocol over *extremely* low-bandwidth links. It does advanced caching and compression to make X usable over links as slow as 9600bps.

"much more efficient than the very basic RFB protocol."

You're softening your own statements, because you probably know too about tightvnc (the exentions of which I believe are also supported in tridiavnc). Or maybe you don't know about it, since you seem to believe that RDP is better than RFB.

And we haven't even talked about NX yet.

In case anyone is fooled by the baseless criticisms of X given by the regular troll above, here is a brief rebuttal.

• "1.Too much focused on 2D user interfaces, no native transperency for multimedia, low level and optimized applications."

Most major computer operating systems have 2d user-interfaces, but this doesn't matter because applications provide their own 3d user-interface if they really need one. Another reason may be that there are very few genuine 2D users who can satisfactorily project themselves onto a 3d user interface. Transparency is not a major requirement for X because those rare applications which require it can implement it themselves e.g. using GIF or PNG transparency. There is also going to be a transparency extension for X

• "2.Too little scalability between devices with varing performance and ability."

Not true. X runs fast, and much faster than Microsoft Windows 95, on my old i486 PC with 8MB RAM.

• "3.No sufficient support for disabled user enhanching devices."

This is a problem not of X itself but of the hardware manufacturers not writing device driver modules for XFree86. When enough people run Linux desktops in the opinion of the hardware manufacturers, device drivers for XFree86 will be written.

• "4.Severe security issues in the protocol. Especially no encrypted operation at NATO standard SECPROT level 4."

This has been nominated for Top 10 Absurd Comments on Slashdot. With a properly configured firewall, this is irrelevant because nobody on the internet can attack your computer's X display. By using ssh for securely forwarding X11 connections most attackers will be unable either to watch or to disrupt your X session.

• "5.Network protocol too bloated and complicated."

Very few people ever use the X11 protocol over a network, firstly, because most people who use X are using it for X applications running locally on their desktop computer, and, secondly, because anyone wanting to run X applications on a remote computer would use an X11 protocol compressor. The X11 protocol is complicated because it is powerful and easily extensible. As an aside, most intelligent people don't seem to have much trouble understanding the X11 protocol or the various extensions.

• "6.No smooth integration into the operating system."

That would be a very bad idea. Increasing the complexity of the interfaces between vital system components such as the kernel and X is a recipe for worse security, worse compatibility, and worse maintainability.

• "7.No smooth integration of the window managers."

Integration with what? X? The whole point of separating window management from X is to give you the freedom of choice to use whichever window manager you like. You can even change the window manager without having to reboot the kernel or re-start X. Otherwise, if you don't like using window managers, use GNOME, or KDE, or return to MS-Windows.

• "8.No stream compression in the protocols."

You don't seem to have heard of NX for real-time X11 protocol compression which typically achieves a 1000:1 compression ratio, of the ancient LBX, or of Differential X Compressor

In case anyone is fooled by the baseless criticisms of X given by the regular troll above, here is a brief rebuttal.

• "1.Too much focused on 2D user interfaces, no native transperency for multimedia, low level and optimized applications."

Most major computer operating systems have 2d user-interfaces, but this doesn't matter because applications provide their own 3d user-interface if they really need one. Another reason may be that there are very few genuine 2D users who can satisfactorily project themselves onto a 3d user interface. Transparency is not a major requirement for X because those rare applications which require it can implement it themselves e.g. using GIF or PNG transparency. There is also going to be a transparency extension for X

• "2.Too little scalability between devices with varing performance and ability."

Not true. X runs fast, and much faster than Microsoft Windows 95, on my old i486 PC with 8MB RAM.

• "3.No sufficient support for disabled user enhanching devices."

This is a problem not of X itself but of the hardware manufacturers not writing device driver modules for XFree86. When enough people run Linux desktops in the opinion of the hardware manufacturers, device drivers for XFree86 will be written.

• "4.Severe security issues in the protocol. Especially no encrypted operation at NATO standard SECPROT level 4."

This has been nominated for Top 10 Absurd Comments on Slashdot. With a properly configured firewall, this is irrelevant because nobody on the internet can attack your computer's X display. By using ssh for securely forwarding X11 connections most attackers will be unable either to watch or to disrupt your X session.

• "5.Network protocol too bloated and complicated."

Very few people ever use the X11 protocol over a network, firstly, because most people who use X are using it for X applications running locally on their desktop computer, and, secondly, because anyone wanting to run X applications on a remote computer would use an X11 protocol compressor. The X11 protocol is complicated because it is powerful and easily extensible. As an aside, most intelligent people don't seem to have much trouble understanding the X11 protocol or the various extensions.

• "6.No smooth integration into the operating system."

That would be a very bad idea. Increasing the complexity of the interfaces between vital system components such as the kernel and X is a recipe for worse security, worse compatibility, and worse maintainability.

• "7.No smooth integration of the window managers."

Integration with what? X? The whole point of separating window management from X is to give you the freedom of choice to use whichever window manager you like. You can even change the window manager without having to reboot the kernel or re-start X. Otherwise, if you don't like using window managers, use GNOME, or KDE, or return to MS-Windows.

• "8.No stream compression in the protocols."

You don't seem to have heard of NX for real-time X11 protocol compression which typically achieves a 1000:1 compression ratio, of the ancient LBX, or of Differential X Compressor

You probably shouldn't be blaming the "network code" for slowing your computer "in some cases".

Do you know that if you run a Linux desktop with the X Window System and GNOME/KDE, you are not necessarily using the networking features of X?

To use the networking features of X on your computer, you would need to login, over a network such as the internet, from your computer, which is running an X server like XFree86, to a remote computer, and, on that remote computer, start an X application, like xv , which would be displayed on your computer's display by having the remote computer communicate the graphics over the network to your computer's display. That's an example of actually using the networking features of X. That would also be slow unless you use a protocol accelerator/compressor for X which makes X completely usable even over a slow 28kbps network connection.

>> What ever happened to LPX?

It became NX and is usuable now at last....

NX ebuilds for Gentoo have been made available by Stuart Herbert. A NX client version also exists for the original Linux distribution that comes bundled with the Sony Linux Kit.

NX ebuilds for Gentoo have been made available by Stuart Herbert. A NX client version also exists for the original Linux distribution that comes bundled with the Sony Linux Kit.

The GPLed work by NoMachine looks very promising. Here are some cross-platform screenshots showing what's possible. Apparently a paper is going to be presented at Linux-Kongress

However, X11's network transparency is just as creaky and obsolete as the rest of the beast. [...] the bandwidth and latency is just obscene when compared to Citrix Metaframe.

See my previous comment on NX compression. I'm typing this on Galeon running at work, displaying on my home computer over a 56K modem, because it's faster web browsing like this than running the browser locally. NX has to be seen to be believed.

The interesting thing is, this level of compression is only possible because of the high-level nature of X's network transparency - Citrix / RDP / VNC doesn't run anywhere near as fast.

If they're trying to include useful third party contributions, they could do worse than include NX, a revolutionary new compression and proxying technology that makes it possible to run an X session over a 9600 modem at a useable speed. But I didn't completely understand their policy on licences (the NX infrastructure is GPLed, whereas X is under the MIT licence).

Someone could also port NoMachine (GPL), it already runs on Zaurus and iPAQ Linux:
http://www.nomachine.com/documentation.php
It runs really nice on slow links.

They have even some digicam shots on their website:

http://www.nomachine.com/news_read.php?idnews=47

There are digital photos available about this
unique premiere:

http://www.nomachine.com/news_read.php?idnews=47

http://www.nomachine.com/

I even saw Windows XP Professional on the X-box!

Well, it was the new NX client for embedded Linux systems, which worked like "out of the box" on the X-box.

It allows you to connect to any Linux or Windows system over the internet, and display that workstation's screen locally. It can use RDP/rdesktop (for Windows), or RFB/tightVNC (for any platform) or the NX server (on Linux). The NX server is the fastest, allowing even for a full KDE session running over 9600 Baud modem connection. X-box "developers" suffered the shock of their life when had turned their backs to the toy for a minute and this was enough to install NX client and connect to Rome/Italy and display the WinXP Prof screen from there fullscreen.... ;-)

I think, NX was the absolute innovation highlight of the show. The excellent CUPS talk was even held using a remote NX log-in into a Linux/CUPS server from a WinXP client. Performance was excellent and not distinguishable from a locally run Linux session. I have now downloaded NX (the server is freely available for testing) and I am very pleased with the results.

> seeing Linux on X-box ;-)

Hey -- this is old news. But I even saw Windows XP
Professional on the X-box!

Well, it was the new NX client
for embedded Linux systems, which worked like
"out of the box" on the X-box.

It allows you to connect to any Linux or Windows
system over the internet, and display that
workstation's screen locally. It can use
RDP/rdesktop (for Windows), or RFB/tightVNC (for
any platform) or the NX server (on Linux). The NX
server is the fastest, allowing even for a full
KDE session running over 9600 Baud modem
connection. X-box "developers" had the schock of
their life when had turned their backs to the toy
for a minute and this was enough to connect to
Rome/Italy and display the WinXP Prof screen from
there fullscreen.... ;-)

I think, NX was the absolute innovation hightlight
of the show. The excellent CUPS talk was even held
using a remote NX log-in into a Linux/CUPS server
from a WinXP client. Performance was excellent and
not distinguishable from a locally run Linux
session. I have now downloaded NX (the server is
freely available for testing) and I am very
pleased with the results.

You can do this already. As others have said, you can just use tightvnc/vnc or NoMachine.

You can also detach individual windows by using a pseudoserver such as Xmove, though it doesn't support applications that use X extensions (most gtk+ apps won't work).

The downside to using any of these programs for user switching is that you loose any sort of acceleration, XRender or glx/opengl wise.