Slashdot Mirror

theodp writes "The weeklong Hour of Code kicks off tomorrow, with Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates doing their part to address a declared nationwide CS crisis by ostensibly teaching the nation's schoolchildren how to code. But a recent NY Times Op-Ed by economist Paul Collier criticizing Zuckerberg's FWD.us PAC as self-serving advocacy (echoing earlier criticism) serves as a reminder that Zuckerberg and Gates' Code.org and Hour of Code involvement is the Yin to their H-1B visa lobbying Yang. The two efforts have been inextricably linked together for Congress, if not for the public. And while Zuckerberg argues it's 'the right thing to do', Collier argues that there are also downsides to the tech giants' plans to shift more bright, young, enterprising people from the poorest countries to the richest. 'An open door for the talented would help Facebook's bottom line,' Collier concludes, 'but not the bottom billion.'"

Dave Hansen, the IBM programmer who organized this interview (questions were posted on May 28), says, "Perhaps I didn't make this clear enough during the call for questions, but myself and my group are kernel programmers. But, we were able to dredge up some responses for answers that we couldn't do ourselves. We haven't been able to get an answer to the ViaVoice question yet, but if there is real interest, I'll make sure that we do get some kind of answer back to Slashdot. IBM Kernel Hackers:

A note: we answered these questions individually, but in the interests of Slashdot's disk space, we decided to coalesce the answers into a single, unified one. You might say we "became one voice". (the IBMers in the audience will get that one) These were edited by management, but they mostly corrected our spelling mistakes and cleaned up our dirty language :)

Remember, if you're interested in Linux on large systems or if you have more questions, be sure to check out the LSE site, find us on LKML, or look for us at OLS (we're giving lots of talks).

1) Multi-CPU Scalability
by morbid

Now that Linux has been ported to run on high-end machines under virtualization, when will we see a kernel tuned for (e.g.) scalability to 64-128 processors natively?

IBM Kernel Hackers:

Assuming you're talking about single systems running one instance of Linux, we are focusing on 8 way scalability this year, 16-32 scalability next year. After that, we'll do whatever the hardware people can produce ... there aren't many 64-128 processor systems around.

The open source community is tackling the complexities in getting multi-cpu systems to scale well, and with that understanding also comes a realization that sometimes entire subsystems are bottlenecks. Major rewrites of some of these are underway in 2.5 (not just by IBM people mind you). The scheduler is being wrestled to the ground, the I/O subsystem is being dissected, and virtual memory implementations are creating rhetoric worthy of the Cold War. All of these efforts have had contributions from IBM people in Beaverton and other parts of the Linux Technology Center.

2) OS Blending
by 2names

As Linux developers inside IBM, do you get to see the AIX source code? If you do, are you allowed to "steal" some ideas from AIX and implement them in Linux? If not, why not, and what's the IBM official line?

IBM Kernel Hackers:

First of all, before any of us were allowed to contribute to Linux, we were required to take an "Open Source Developers" class. This class gives us the guidelines we need to participate effectively in the open source community - both IBM guidelines and lessons learned about open source from others in IBM.

We are definitely not allowed to cut and paste proprietary code into any open source projects (or vice versa!). There is an IBM committee who can and do approve the release of IBM proprietary or patented technology, like RCU.

That covers "stealing" code, but what about ideas? We might talk to an AIX programmer and comment we're seeing performance issues in Linux in this area or that area and she tells us they discovered that they really needed to profile the network routines when they saw that. Having solved the problem once, our non-Linux peers can help steer us without spelling it out for us, allowing us to still develop solutions that can then be open sourced.

It's a fine line to walk, especially as an engineer who just wants the answer :)

3) The Open Source model
by larry bagina

IBM will be using linux to help sell their hardware. Other companies have tried this (VA Linux, which owns Slashdot, once had linux hackers on their payroll). Obviously, IBM's hardware is in a different league as an x86 clone, but do you have any thoughts on Open Source business models and their validity? Once the kernel is running smoothly, will you be disposable since the "Open Source community" can continue development for free?

IBM Kernel Hackers:

We think the Open Source business model is more than just valid, it is revolutionary. Linux has become a real "killer app"; the ability to run Linux on IBM hardware is increasingly high on customer's lists. Being able to run it doesn't really hurt AIX or VM, but not being able to run it would cost hardware sales.

As far as our disposability: don't get too concerned on our behalf, Linux will always have bugs and there will always be room for improvement.

4) Getting your changes accepted?
by korpiq

Is Linus accepting your changes well? How directly do you submit patches, and what are your experiences on the overall Linux kernel development style?

IBM Kernel Hackers:

Linus himself is wonderful about accepting patches on technical merit alone. He doesn't "grade" them differently if they come from ibm.com or mit.edu. We submit patches the exact same way that everyone else does: append the patch, mail to Linus and CC linux-kernel. If it's good, it gets in. If it sucks, you get flamed.

However, the submission process can be more complicated than first appears. Often, you need to figure out who is maintaining a particular area of code, followed by talking to them to gauge if someone else is already working on the same thing. Once you submit your code to them and the appropriate list, (isn't always lkml..) you may not get a response. This can be discouraging, but you have to find out why, or just simply resubmit, over and over and over. But, once you have a reputation, it does get easier to get quicker responses.

Sometimes it's frustrating when you've put a lot of effort into something that doesn't get accepted, but there's normally a good reason for it. Even work that doesn't get accepted can influence other people's thinking and development in the future. On the flip side you can also just point out problems and other people fix them for you, so in general you win more than you lose ;-)

5)linux on thinkpads
by Olinator

IMHO, IBM makes some of the best mobile hardware out there -- one of the professors I support raves about his ThinkPad 600, that went with him into the Israeli desert for several months and is still running strong, no service required -- but the linux support for that hardware has been, um, erratic at best. Yes, we've been occasionally been able to purchase the odd model with linux preinstalled (usually it's more expensive than the comparable model with MicroSoft preinstalled, grr) but an awful lot of the hardware (mini-pci modems, etc...) is rather difficult to drive with a penguin behind the wheel. Why does IBM's linux enthusiasm fade so quickly at the small (physical) end of the hardware scale? Is there momentum underway to change this?

IBM Kernel Hackers:

All of the people in our group and most in the LTC have Thinkpads for their daily development and run Linux on them (I'm writing this on one as I sit in my apartment). There may not be as much corporate support there as you want, but there is plenty of grass-roots support. We had to learn all the quirks to get Linux installed and get all of the little things working (just like you). I've always wished that we shared more of this information, but there are usually people who are farther ahead than we are. I've uploaded the meager information that we put together during a meeting once. If you're curious, take a look: http://www.sr71.net/slashdot/thinkpad/linux-desktop

People don't buy many small computers just because they will run Linux (the geek population just isn't that large). People do, however, blow large chunks of cash on big machines just to run Linux. Mom-and-Pop can almost always undercut IBM on prices for small machines, and geeks are thrifty. You don't have to sell many million dollar machines to justify being involved in Linux development.

6) Issues with middle management
by Consul

When you were starting out as a group, did you encounter a lot of friction and resistance from middle and/or upper management about your wanting to work on Open Source projects for IBM? If so, what did you do to overcome the objections and become the team you are now? I think the answer to this would help a lot of other people in other companies get mainstream acceptance of the idea of OSS in corporate environments.

IBM Kernel Hackers:

The management chain from engineer up to VP has been surprisingly a non-issue. We believe this is mostly because of the way the Linux Technology Center was founded. You might think the LTC evolved "up" from renegade engineers, but the truth is that our first Linux corporate strategy in 1998 called for the creation of a team, composed of some our best OS engineers, that would join the community to

1. Learn from doing,
2. Grow Linux skills
3. Give back to the community
4. Help make Linux better.

The LTC was founded then with full corporate backing already in place. Boring!! The early funding story for the LTC did involve renegade behavior and a table outside the BOFs at LinuxWorld in 1999, but that's a different story. Our director, Dan Frye, is owed much of the praise for the LTC's existence and smooth operation within IBM. The critical thing here is that engineers shouldn't be fighting corporate political battles, you need management that will go to bat for you on those issues (and win ;-)) We have that, and they do a good job of keeping that stuff off our backs. On the whole, our only work in this arena is to inform the management of what we need, and to feed them with the ammunition they need from a technical standpoint to fight these battles for us.

7) When do you estimate Linux can surpass Solaris?
by wytcld

Solaris 9 is getting great reviews. Between the strengths of the traditional open source community and IBM's resources, do you see a point in the next several years where you expect Linux to surpass Solaris in all of its core strengths? Or does Solaris have some unique values which will allow Sun to continue to position itself to advantage, at least for some applications? Please answer this as a technical rather than marketing question.

IBM Kernel Hackers:

We don't have a Solaris machines to back up any claim we may make, nor do we want to stir up another epic Linux on mainframe battle. It is safe to say, however, that today Linux/x86 is able to outperform¹ Solaris/Sparc in many areas that Sun has a long history of success. If your core business was threatened, wouldn't you make some serious changes?

¹ I know, I know, outperform is a very vague term. Just think price, performance, stability, etc...

8) OS/2 Developers
by reaper20

I'm one of the few people who really enjoyed the OS/2 desktop and its features. Have any of the former OS/2 developers been contributing to Linux?

Specifically, the user interface and accessibility people - OS/2 was very polished - does IBM see a benefit by offering this expertise to the GNOME/KDE projects?

If so, how does this tie into IBM's vision of Linux of the desktop, if you have one? :)

IBM Kernel Hackers:

Yes, there are a number of former OS/2 developers in the LTC including the majority of the teams working on: JFS, EVMS, and Print, as well individuals contributing in the areas of networking, security, RAS, performance and other projects. Remember, OS/2 had JFS support and EVMS supports the OS/2 partitioning scheme.

While IBM is not actively contributing code from the OS/2 user interface, we are supporting and sponsoring both the GNOME and the KDE projects through our involvement in the KDE League and the GNOME Foundation. And as you mentioned, we place a high level of importance on accessibility and so are participating in the community efforts in that area as well.

10) IA64
by sabre ...

Do you think that IPF64 line will see any kind of broad industry adoption? Will it become just like rest of the (non-embedded) processor architectures designed since the x86 -- constantly fighting for 5% of the market? Do you think the AMD Hammer architecture will be a meaningful player in the field?

IBM Kernel Hackers:

Quite possibly, never underestimate the importance of being able to run the huge installed base of ia32 apps natively, and at high speed. But IA64 has lots of industry backing as well. The good news is that Linux runs well on both, so we the community don't have to choose. The market will do that for us.

Additional questions and answers:

What features do you find linux most lacking in? (If we don't examine our weaknesses, we will be crippled)

Linux on the desktop still doesn't really cut it for some of us (though we do use it). Applications are not nearly as robust as they should be, and though we are perfectly capable of configuring X, we'd rather spend the time coding. Though it's fun to throw stones at Windows and the Linux OS is more stable than the Windows OS, as a whole desktop package with the apps, installation, usability and everything rolled together, Linux is not always preferable.

There are thorns in our side daily because of the lack of debugging and profiling ability in the kernel. We're always patching kernels for kernprof or lockmeter and porting them around to new kernel versions. Although Linus has pretty much said that debuggers are for sissies, the built-in facilities are much better than they were during the old days (think readprofile). So, there are advances being made.

...I'm not surprised that your responses have to be vetted by management. But, I'd love to know what guidelines IBM has for hackers' interaction with the rest of the GNU/Linux/Internet community. Are you allowed to criticize IBM management, or other IBM products, for example?

This is the Internet. We are hackers. Our management has been great allowing us to resolve many of our own problems involving certain email systems and desktop OS rules. Working in the kernel group of the LTC we have free reign to do our work on the kernel in the Open Source community.

There's no day-to-day vetting of anything we post or say, they trust us to be sensible. We would not say "IBM product X sucks, and you should buy competitor's product Y instead" in a public forum, but if we don't think something works well, I'm not going to endorse it either. We're engineers who get paid to work on Linux by IBM, not IBM corporate drones ;-)

From the brief bios, and Sequent pedigree, it looks like there is a lot of focus on high-end features like NUMA, async I/O and the like. Other commercial organizations, notably SGI, are also putting forth effort in those areas. There is actually quite a bit of overlap.

Since these are "open source" projects, do you collaborate with your traditional "enemies" such as SGI and Sun on Linux? What is your management's attitude toward that type of collaboration? If not, do you "look" at the work \ the others are doing in comparison to what you are doing?

We have been working smoothly with engineers from HP, Intel, SGI and many other companies through the Linux Scalability Effort Open Source Project. Whatever legal issues there might be within each company, it appears to me that the engineers who are working on open source are allowed to do their work with no problems. Hanna runs the bi-weekly LSE Conference Call and can say the biggest percentage of attendees are from either IBM, SGI or Intel every time. This is nice, but we want more members from the Open Source community to join: (http://lse.sf.net/mtg).

Management doesn't really care too much who actually writes the patch at the end of the day, they want to see Linux work well in their focus areas. Persuading other (external) developers of the correct approach or solution to a problem is just as important a part of our jobs as writing code.

Why isn't IBM making more of an effort to recruit developers directly from the Linux community, as opposed to hiring people who have very little if any working familiarity with the platform?

IBM has hired lots of existing Linux developers such as Rusty Russell, Greg Kroah-Hartman, and Ted Ts'o. There are also others that post to LKML and don't even use their IBM email addresses because they were firmly established community members (with those email addresses) before they were hired. We do have a site where you can view many of our patches, or a list of developers. Keep in mind that there are still developers who don't submit patches here.

What are your opinions regarding the shrinking number of women in the industry? (actually I believe the numbers are rising again in schools)

This is a tough field and many young women are discouraged from sticking it out through all of the math and science classes, as are many young men. Companies, like IBM, help by hiring bright women who move up the technical chain. This shows the less experienced that there is a future for women in engineering.

Shrinking? The numbers seem to be increasing based on what we see at work every day. IBM is active in programs that introduce young women to engineering in an attempt to get them interested in pursing careers in engineering. An example of these programs is Camp EXITE, check this site out for more info: http://www.ibm.com/ibm/ibmgives/grant/education/camp.shtml

An interesting interview regarding the number of women in industry is available at: http://www.nspe.org/etweb/16-02viewpoint.asp

Questions Rick Lindsley liked that didn't make the top 10, plus answers:

Best way into the Professional Linux world?

As many people here, I am a huge Linux fan, but I am so much so that I am trying to figure out how to get into the professional Linux world when I graduate.

I attend Clemson University and am in the Computer Information System (CS + business) program (and doubled in Political Science). My goal is to become a Linux sys admin, or perhaps some other Linux guru type job. The work that IBM is doing with Linux is also very appealing to me.

So, how did you get your job, and what would you recommend as the path to follow for us geeks just getting started in the professional world as to how to get into Linux? How can I become as entrenched with Linux as the professionals at IBM? I have had two internships (not with IBM, nor with Linux, but with other CS stuff), but how can I get an entry-level job in a Linux intensive environment like IBM? How can said job lead me into a career where I can be deeply involved in the Linux world?

Rick:

First: I've done recruiting at a "significant Big 10 university whose mascot's name is Bucky" so let me tell you what I look for in a college candidate.

Knowledgable -- your resume should reflect what you know, but don't puff it. Just because they make me dress up when I'm on campus doesn't mean I can't tell perl from shell scripting. Accentuate your strong points. You gain points for knowledge, but you lose them for lying or "overstating."

Communicative -- a person who cannot talk about what they know might as well know nothing. Seriously consider taking a public speaking course your junior or senior year. Also: it's ok to say "I don't know."

Grade point -- Personally, I really don't care so much about your GPA as you might think. Unfortunately, you will be judged by it by far too many people, right or wrong. So if you're not 3.9 or 4.0, you might be ready to spin it a bit. "Yes, it's 3.2, but I've buckled down and have 3.84 in the last three semesters." "Yes it's 3.1, but you'll note it's 3.6 on courses in my major." Don't get surreal but make that number say something good about you.

Work experience -- you get a big edge for doing something other than a teaching assistant. Internships, co-ops, and summer jobs can help you more than you think in the end.

Second, how did I get my job at IBM? Luck, in part. Right place, right time. Sometimes it really does work for you. Along with that luck, though, was the fact that I'd established a reputation as a smart coder and a fast learner. While I knew far less about Linux then than I know now, that reputation made managers believe that "coming up to speed" would not be a problem, and they judged right. Your reputation, as reported by your colleagues and not yourself, will be your greatest ally (or enemy.) This is never more true than in the Linux community.

Third, advancing? Once you get your foot in the door, work at interacting. Nobody really advances very far without interaction. At first this is with your cubie neighbor or office mate, but pretty soon it's chatting with people down the hall, and then in other projects. Eventually, you have opportunities to help organize informal seminars with the local user's group, and then it's helping out with conferences, and then you're writing papers, and chairing sessions, and before you know it you're standing puzzled in front of a thousand people, wondering how troubled their life must be that they would want to listen to <em>you</em> speak.

Dave Hansen's answer -

Purdue University's Computer Science program. I went to one of the CS job fairs where someone in the large IBM booth saw "Linux" on my resume. I handed my resume off, had a nice chat, and got a sit-down interview a couple of days later. That was followed soon by a plant trip and a job offer. The moral of the story: if you want a Linux job, put Linux on your resume! Make it bold. Make it half the page if that is really want you want to do. Most importantly, you have to learn to walk the walk before you can talk the talk. Engineers usually have better BS detectors than most people and you won't fool them for long.

Advancing - This is probably evident to anyone who has gone through an engineering program at a large school, but the most successful engineers are those who can teach others. You'll notice that there are lots of brilliant engineers and lots of teachers, but those who can do both are a rarity. Learn as much as you can from your colleagues then share as much as you can. The more people who know your name and come to you for help, the more visible you are. There is probably a fine line between getting noticed and being annoying and I have the feeling that a Slashdot interview may be WAY beyond the line :)

ben writes "Reuters just ran a story about the increasing number of calls for liability on the part of software developers, with a not-too-suprising focus on Microsoft and its uber-fallible IIS webserver. Given that many other engineering disciplines have some sort of accreditation and licensing body to enforce codes of professional ethics, I'm curious what impact the demand for such a creature in the software industry could have on Open Source developers, especially the part-time hobbyist ones. That is, establishment of some sort of Software Developer's license means the developer is potentially liable for whatever havoc his bugs may wreak, and traditionally the only environment with legal resources adequate to deal with such liability has been the megalithic corporate one."