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Don't assume that things don't exist because you are not aware of them, the field of culture (like most other worthwhile ones) is deeper and wider for any one person to explore fully. Like in the other reply I wrote, I will just mention the first thing that comes to mind: Plunderphonics

http://www.plunderphonics.com/xhtml/xplunder.html

Also check out the Wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plunderphonics

Well, I guess this is one of the cases were the ultimate truth will never be known, and probably lies somewhere in the murky middle.

I don't have the Negativland U2 book, but I do appreciate their work (plug: buy the plunderphonics book/cd they thankfully released).

But from the limited information that is available to me, I tend to stand in SST's camp in this case. I searched, but can't find anymore where I read that SST or Greg Ginn claimed that they had warned Negativland that Negativland were free to use any cover they liked, but that in the case of a lawsuit, SST would not be able to protect the band for lack of resources.

SST had always been short on money for various reasons (stranglehold of the majors on distribution and indie distributers going bankrupt all the time and consequently not paying SST, a - in hindsight - stupid release policy from 86 or so onwards). How Negativland could think that SST would be willing and able to support them in a lawsuit against a major (when over the years many many bands had claimed that SST owes them money), is beyond me.

As for "rolling over", Ginn truly is the man whom everybody left alone in the end. I'm sure he contributed to that, but still. If you read up on the early Flag history, those guys payed so dearly for what they gave and still give to people. Why should Ginn risk what was left of SST (and an income to provide a healthy life for him and the cats he now shelters, or so I read) for a stupid prank by Negativland, however interesting/important it might be.

Personally, I'd rather have a healthy and functioning SST (with a complete back catalogue of tens of bands in vinyl, not the sorry scrap shop it now is) than this one record by Negativland.

All of which doesn't take away from the prime topic at hand: knowingly or unknowingly (even more lame when the latter), letting your label sue the guy who played 100+ shows a year with Black Flag, traveling in a van, to plant the seeds of what later became (much to the dismay of Greg Ginn I guess) the very "alternative" rock your own band lives on. Lame.

By way of introduction, I pay attention to at a lot of grafitti and know several taggers.

> There are two kinds of graffiti. I'll call the
> first one 'artcrime' since I'm not sure what
> other people call it. The second is tagging.

You're trying to made a hard and fast distinction between something that's purely aesthetic. It just ain't so easy.

Compare your argument to: "I call it 'hip hop' if it's socially conscious. I call it 'rap' if it's all 'cash-money-hoes'." Things that fall in the first category nonetheless can be terrible. And things that fall in the second category can nonetheless be inspired.

And to reply to someone else's argument:
> Nice sounding words, but unless you have permision
> by the owners, all you are doing is damaging the
> property of others. Using property you did not pay
> for. It's not art at all, it's just vandalism.

Okay, this is just crap. Just becase something is illegal, anti-social, and bears no respect for property rights doesn't mean it can't be art. I suggest you check out John Oswald's Plunderphonics album, which he composed solely out of misappropriated samples. (e.g. The Beatles, Michael Jackson, &tc.)

FWIW, most of the taggers I know just don't give a fuck. Indeed, they relish in the subversive aspect of the activity.

Now, the question of whether it's "good" or not is an entirely different matter, and one that cannot be easily answered based upon a simple definition or trivial distinction.

The canonical example of illegal music

John Oswald's entire "Plunderphonics" album, which was as far as I remember is also not able to be legally sold, is available for download in wav and mp3 format here. Fascinating stuff -- also check out Oswald's "Plexure" album on John Zorn's Tzadik label if you're interested in this kind of music.

~jeff

To buy the new Plunderphonics box set!

I don't think you'll get away with that quite that easily. Ask John Oswald. Same situation, different "license".