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Oh, boy. Either I missed the humor, or you are clueless...

Have you ever tried to bzip an audio file and compare it to an MP3 encoded version? The MP3 file will always be smaller, because the encoder throws out data that it doesn't expect people will actually need to hear.

Even for lossless compression, [b,g]zip sucks on audio. Codecs like Shorten and FLAC work really well for that purpose.

Show me *any* compression format that does a better job in this scenario.

Every non-lossy compression format. FLAC, Shorten, LPAC, Monkey's Audio, WavPack, etc.

I don't think you get it. I'm saying the quality is also relevent when converting to other formats, and when buying music, I absolutely demand non-lossy formats, as lossy formats are inherently low-quality when transcoding.

Here's a little meat for you:

2. RESTRICTIONS. Notwithstanding any provisions in this agreement to the contrary, Licensee may not (a) make, use or load into temporary memory any unapproved copies of the Licensed Materials without the appropriate license(s) for use on additional CPUs; (b) distribute the Licensed Materials; (c) modify, transmit, rent, lease or sublicense the Licensed Materials; (d) reverse-engineer, decompile or disassemble the Licensed Materials, except to the extent required to be permitted by applicable law; (e) disclose any source core or performance characteristics of the Licensed Materials to any person or entity; (f) use the Licensed Materials in a service bureau or "application service provider" environment or for the benefit of third parties; or (g) at any time do or permit to be done anything which shall adversely affect SoftSound's right, title or interest in the Licensed Materials. If the Licensed Materials are used within a country of the European Community, nothing in this Agreement shall be construed as restricting any rights available under the EC Council Directive 14 May 1991 on the legal protection of computer programs.

Emmett Plant
CEO, Xiph.Org Foundation

Furthurnet is probably my favorite that runs on OS X. Bands that allow taping (and they're more numerous than you'd think. Phish, The Dead, and The Black Crowes are there, but so is everything from Louis Armstrong to the Beasties) are traded freely on this app, and I've grabbed more than 35 gigs of tunes. Most serious traders use Shorten format (.shn), which is a lossless compression format that brings that patch from the soundboard right down onto your Mac's hard drive, no questions asked. You can translate these into aiff or wav files pretty easily, and burn CDs right from iTunes.

Furthurnet's UI and search protocol (borrowed originally from Gnutella, I believe) could use a little spiffing up, but it's a GPL'd, ad-free application that works great once you're used to it. I haven't gotten online yet and failed to find at least one show within a few minutes of searching for whatever artist strikes my fancy (though admittedly Doc Watson is about as esoteric as I get).

Course if you're just looking for warez, I haven't helped at all, but if you want some great tunes for free via your new-found love of the Mac, you can't get any better than Furthurnet.

"PS" If Limewire is running too slowly, it might be a "Java problem". Make sure your app has an Aqua look & feel to take advantage of Apple's JVM's hardware accelerated GUI widgets. Having a video card that supports Quartz Extreme would help a bit as well.

"PPSS" In what little spare time I find I have (when I'm not writing this post), I've been trying to port Furthurnet to Mac OS 9-. Had some luck, but nothing to release just yet. So if you're not using OS X, upgrade. :^D

They're going to be a very busy department. How many people do you know that don't have illegal mp3's on their machine?

I agree.. but the problem arises when people who have all legal mp3s on their machine get busted. There is such a stigma on mp3s, and how they are illegal just because they're in that format.

Should they be afraid to keep 100% legal live music in SHN format on their computer, just because the common belief by the "powers that be" is that any audio on ones computer is illegal.

Offer it in multiple different formats. Some Monkey's Audio for a lossless copy, some VBR MP3 encoded with LAME using the --r3mix tag, some Shorten lossless audio for those that prefer it, some OGG Vorbis for those that prefer the ultimate in open-source audio, and perhaps an AIFF. Makes sense to me.

handy links:
Winamp plugin

XMMS plugin

other windows shorten software

SHN FAQ

You didn't mention which version you tested with. The recently released RC3 (jan 1 2002) is improved over RC2 in the treble area, so if you encoded with RC2, give RC3 a try.

If you want a lossless compression format for audio, check out shorten. It's not as drastic as mp3 or ogg, of course, but it does cut file size in about half.

Btw, the 'way it was meant to be enjoyed' format for Rachmaninov is live performance, not CD, mp3 or ogg.

_KhlER3L

The technology is there but the media prices are ridiculous. DVD-R prices hover at around 15 to 25 bucks. The drives are not too bad, the HP drive goes for around $560 street but until the media comes down to earth it doesn't seem worth it for me. Now if I had an interest in video, I would pick it up in a heartbeat.

• Some people say that Yamaha's VQF has better quality than MP3 given the same bitrate: http://www.yamaha-xg.com/english/xg/So undVQ/, http://www.vqf.com/
• AAC had some popularity for a while but I haven't heard much about it lately: http://www.mpeg.org/MPEG/aac.html
• Many people use shorten for lossless compression: http://www.softsound.com/Shorten.html
• Some proprietary formats:
• Windows media: http://www.mi crosoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/en/download/defau lt.asp
• Liquid audio: http://www.liquidaudio.com/
• Realplayer G2: http://www.real.com

If you are concerned primarily with archiving your sound, there's a program I've seen being used by people trading bootlegged CD's called Shorten. It's a non-lossy compression that displays around a 2:1 ratio (there's also a lossy version but I don't know much about it, the ratio is less than MP3 though). There's a company called SoftSound that markets a commerical version for Windows/DOS but I believe there's other version.

I also came across the comp.speech FAQ which has a specific section regarding audio compression standards.

I've said all along that MP3 is interim technology ... it's opening up new markets, but it isn't the end-all, and lossy compression is NOT the future of audiophile music.

While the MPAA and MP3.com battle it out to determine the future of music files degraded by lossy compression, those on the cutting edge have moved on.

Check out: www.softsound.com for instance. They have a LOSSLESS compression scheme called "shorten" that can reduce a sound file 2:1.

It isn't 10:1 like MP3, but considering that most people have written off audio data as uncompressable, a 2:1 ratio isn't too shabby.

Audiophiles have quietly switched over to this format for internet music trading. As the internet bandwidth grows, the file size advantage of MP3 will become less important, and lossless compression such as shorten will replace lossy compression schemes, such as MP3, and the current crop of SDMI compression schemes that the recording industry is "betting the farm" on.

Plus, a CDR loaded with .shn files can hold up to about 110 minutes of music on a data CDR! Doing so gives you the more reliable error correction of CDR data vs CD audio, which makes ripping errors a thing of the past.

If the recording industry was SMART, they would position MP3 as a "preview", or streaming format, like FM radio and advertise it as a lower quality, more convenient format at a lower price, or even give it away for free. Then they would be in a position to sell their uncompressed tracks at full price as a "premier" product, and interest in MP3s would diminish.

However, the recording industry isn't smart.

Instead, they are positioning their own flavors of inferior lossy compression as their "premier" product. In a year or so, people will realize that there are non-SDMI products that offer SUPERIOR sound quality to the industry "premier" product, and the recording industry will have once again painted themselves into a corner.

- John

I still can't believe there's so much hype and hooplah surrounding the mp3 audio format. I'm surprised that the RIAA isn't more worried about lossless compression formats. You'd think that formats with no generational sound quality loss, or any loss of information for that matter, would really get some panties in a bunch.

Mark this offtopic if you want, but here's some info I've never seen on Slashdot about a lossless compression format called Shorten.

SoftSound, the developer of the format, sells a Windows encoder/decoder. There are also FREE versions available for Windows, Linux, and Mac. The HOWTO for the format is located here. There's also a great guide located here. Shorten for Mac and Linux is over here.

Anyone interested in the lossless compression of audio should definately give this a look-see.