Domain: tarnhelm.com
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Comments · 12
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Smart gun types
Unless the police and military adopt smart gun technology, then you arent going to get civilians to adopt it.
This is my stand on it. Thus far every 'smart gun' proposal has had even the most anti-gun police department lobby incredibly hard to make sure they were completely exempt from it. Despite police officers having a known rate for being killed by their own firearms taken away from them. It's something like 3 a year.
Personally, I figure that any criminal who manages to gain a firearm will also manage to unlock or rekey it to himself given time, if not bypass the system completely, so it's only useful in the 'immediate' time frame.
Anyways, I've done some research on this. Thus far, I'm familiar with 3 types of 'smart gun'.
First, the oldest. Known as 'Magna-Trigger', this system uses a magnetic ring worn on a finger as a safety. Advantages: Non-electronic, reliable, fairly cheap(~$500 for complete setup), works through gloves and such. Has actually saved officer lives. Disadvantages: Only available for a few makes of firearm, it's a retrofit. The 'keys' are actually universal - if you have a magna-trigger ring, you can fire any magna-trigger firearm. So if a criminal manages to disable an officer, take the firearm AND the ring, he can fire the gun. If you want to be able to fire with either hand without moving the ring, you need to buy 2 rings($60 each).
Second, RFID - either a ring or a watch. Substantially more expensive, I only know of models that fire .22LR, and that kicks a pistol that should cost under $400 up over $2,000, plus the watch is another $800 or something crazy like that. Upside - still generally reliable, you get a pimping watch. Downsides - from the description, if you're struggling for control of the firearm you've likely activated it. IE the criminal who has taken it from you can still shoot you with it as long as he or you doesn't move away quickly enough. If you're instinctively trying to grab the gun, your hand/wrist is likely close enough to arm the pistol.
Third - fingerprint. Just as expensive as RFID. Has the advantage that it doesn't require other equipment. On the other hand, the finger scanners tend to be fiddly - work about half the time per read even when clean, and if they're dirty, good luck. The reader generally mucks with the ergonomics of the pistol - it's no longer as comfortable to hold. Also only available in .22lr. Can't be used while wearing gloves, or when it's too cold/hot out.A note on the
.22lr thing: When I did some math, I figured that going to 9mm, the most common self-defense round, and about the lightest of the 'most common 5', I figured that the electronics of any 'smart' gun are likely to experience about an order of magnitude more shock with each firing - shock being a rapid change in acceleration. Combine this with a demand that the device would have to withstand tens of thousands of these shocks, and I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason they're only offered in .22lr wasn't that the maker has to start somewhere - but because anything heavier rapidly killed the electronics.Summary: No way in hell are the police, or anybody else interested in protecting things, voluntarily taking them anytime soon.
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Re:Movies are real!
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Re:what is a "gun safe"?
Well for a pistol the thing to have is one of those rings that lets you and only you shoot it. Those big gun safes I doubt any 3 year old could open but if you have a 3 year old about, keep the ammunition and the guns separate. If you have to keep one loaded get one of those ring safeties added.
http://www.tarnhelm.com/magna-trigger/gun/safety/magna1.html
Be safe with your gun or don't own one.
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What use is a gun that won't shoot?
And a similar system has been available since the 70's: The The Magna-Trigger Conversion is a ring that activates a firearm.
Costs about $350 + $60 for each ring.
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Re:Jon-Erik Hexum
A note of explanation -
In some states, CCW written tests can be given orally. This exception is meant to accomodate people who don't read or speak the language but blind folks can profit from it.
Shooting requirements are also not necessarily a big deal. If you've never taken a CCW range test, you may not realize just how incredibly easy some are. There's nothing to prevent someone blind from having a helper stand behind them and say "Higher" or "More to the right". I've proved it to myself. I once blindfolded myself and managed to shoot the first two distances of the Texas test without a miss. Only a few more hits are necessary to get a low (but passing) score. However, I must admit that I've only known one blind person who got a concealed carry license. He was "legally blind" and had no problem with the shooting test. He just shot for the center of the fuzzy target and got plenty enough hits to pass.
Finally, I do know one fully blind person confined to a wheelchair who carries a revolver. It's a chopped (almost Fitz-style, for the aficionados in the crowd) large-frame double action loaded with 5-in-1 blanks. He would never try to shoot someone across the room. But if someone were to lay hands on him violently, I feel quite confident that a blank to the chest would be a sufficiently devastating blow as to completely discourage the attacker. For those who fear that someone will just take the gun away from the stupid blind man and use it on him - I'll grant that you have a point. I think it would be hard to sneak up on the guy and the fact that he carries a gun is not something he advertises. He considers the probability of losing the gun to an attacker (who is highly unlikely to know the gun even exists until the first shot is fired) to be so low that he doesn't worry about it. I told him about the MagnaTrigger conversion and I know he considered it but I don't know if he went through with it.
Personally, if I didn't work with computers I'd definitely have at least one revolver with the MagnaTrigger.
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Re:Can you say "war dialing"?
The fingerprint system and the ID ring system are already working examples of "smart guns". One gun fingerprints you, the other makes sure you are wearing a uniqe ring with some sort of RFID tag in it. These seam to be as simple as an owner-fire-only system you can get.
I disagree. The fingerprint prototypes are vaporware. Believe me, you'll hear about it when they become viable commercial products because the state of New Jersey has put some really silly laws on the books that will mandate their exclusive use in certain situations three years (IIRC) after they hit the market. As yet, that hasn't happened.
I'm not aware of the RFID ring system. First, the NJ laws would be triggered by it. Second, I think you actually have in mind the MagnaTrigger conversion, a viable product for about the last 4 decades or more. You can look at the Tarnhelm web site for more information.
I like the idea, but the big problem I have with the MagnaTrigger is that wearing a powerful magnet on your hand all the time means you can't pick up a floppy without risking killing it. Ditto for the USB hard drives I regularly use. The MagnaTrigger works great if you never touch magnetic media, though. I think that rules out me and most Slashdotters.
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Re:Can you say "war dialing"?
Even worse, what if
...(various scenarios occur)Not a problem. The GP post got it wrong; they aren't RFID rings. He's thinking of the MagnaTrigger conversion, a viable product for about the last 4 decades or more. Replacement rings are available. You can look at the Tarnhelm web site for more information.
The big problem I have with the MagnaTrigger is that wearing a powerful magnet on your hand all the time means you can't pick up a floppy without risking killing it. Ditto for the USB hard drives I regularly use. The MagnaTrigger works great if you never touch magnetic media, though. I think that rules out most Slashdotters.
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Will it work when you really need it?
You are all assuming that the smart guns will work every time you need them to. I have had a "smart gun" since 1977. It is a Smith & Wesson modle 25, 45 auto revolver, modified with a trigger block released only by wearing a special magnetic ring. The weapon will only fire if the ring is worn on the proper finger of the firing hand (magnatrigger). http://www.tarnhelm.com/ However, the [positioning of the ring is very sensitive. Often, I have found the gun would not fire because the ring was a couple of millimeters out of range of the device's magnet. During rapid fire, only 2 or 3 rounds can be fired without repositioning the hand on the grip. As annoying as this is, it would be unacceptable in a "shoot or die" situation. In stressful situations, or during a hand to hand struggle, it is not pratical to double check your hand position on the grip. You just want it to work, and work everytime!!!! I dont think that this new smart gun would be any less sensitive to proper hand positioning. Dying because your hand was a few mm offposition is not acceptable.
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I got my smart gun 5 years ago.
Still works flawlessly. I carry it everywhere. I wear a $2000 ceramic vest. I hope I never, ever have to draw this gun in anger. But god help anyone who forces me to do so.
In other news, let me be the first to say "fuck new jersey".
/praying for the day when my fellow liberals understand that all civil rights are important. -
Re:Ring lock
I've used the MagnaTrigger conversion on an S&W revolver. That technology dates way back, to the 1960s iirc. It was always expensive but, from both my brief experience and everything I've read about it over the years, it was dead solid reliable.
I never actually bought a conversion, though. It was expensive (more than the cost of the gun, IIRC) and by the time I was old enough to buy handguns I was already into computers. Having to wear a ring that would corrupt any floppy I picked up was, for me, a flaw I couldn't overcome.
I don't think that the MagnaTrigger was ever all that widespread. Cost was an issue. Plus, by the time people were widely discussing locking firearms most cops had switched to autopistols. The MagnaTrigger was a revolver-only technology.
This new ringlock thing, though, arose out of different needs. It's designed to meet the legal requirements in jurisdictions where the law says your gun must be locked. It looks interesting and could meet a real need. I haven't seen published tests, though, and I haven't handled the technology so I can't offer an opinion on reliability beyond "Looks like it's worth checking out."
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It was called the Magna Trigger
Here's a link...
This explains it
this thing has been around for ages. Probably wouldn't be a good idea for the geeks in this forum... think about handling your floppies with one of those buggers on.
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Re:Ehhh...
At least three companies offer magnetic trigger locks.
Smartlock
tarnhelm
and Colt
The companies have all determined that there is a market for these devices and that they offer a low enough chance of being sued for it to be profitable. Colt also offers an electronic version to police officers, but I know my inlaws (both of which are police officers) would not want some battery powered thing determining if they can fire their weapon or not.