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Obama Orders Feds To Study Smart Gun Technology (cnet.com)

An anonymous reader writes: Today U.S. President Barack Obama rolled out a set of executive actions aimed at reducing gun violence. The most controversial of the provisions requires licenses for those who sell guns at gun shows and on the internet, and forces background checks on buyers. There are also a number of measures dedicated to making background checks more foolproof and universal. Less controversial but more on-topic for Slashdot is that Obama is requiring the departments of Defense, Justice, and Homeland Security to investigate smart gun technology. This can include RFID chips, fingerprint scanners, and other bits of technology. Their goal will be to "explore potential ways to further its use and development to more broadly improve gun safety." The new gun measures include a proposal for a $500 million investment into providing care for people with serious mental illnesses.

935 comments

  1. RF? by ebonum · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Give me the frequencies. I'll have jammers made in China within a month.

    1. Re: RF? by slasher999 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exactly, this will simply waste tax payer dollars and add complexity to a safety device adding to the likelyhood it will fail to perform when needed.

    2. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What they need are DNA readers like the guns in Escape From Butcher Bay. If your DNA isn't in the master database and you try to use the gun, it kills you with an electrical discharge.

    3. Re:RF? by zieroh · · Score: 5, Insightful

      TFS says "explore". Importantly, it also says "other". Rather than hysterical shrieking designed to encourage doing nothing, maybe you could suggest alternative approaches.

      Because "nothing" is no longer an option.

      --
      People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
    4. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly, this will simply waste tax payer dollars and add complexity to a safety device adding to the likelyhood it will fail to perform when needed.

      So instead let's just not have safety devices because they might fail.

    5. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      TFS says "explore". Importantly, it also says "other". Rather than hysterical shrieking designed to encourage doing nothing, maybe you could suggest alternative approaches.

      Because "nothing" is no longer an option.

      The critics of gun "control" don't want any solution. Their strategy is to ask for pie in sky solutions or perfect solutions, and absent that ask that no regulation be legislated. As a well known aforism says, the perfect is the enemy of good. Gun control critics spout this mantra at every turn. Time to shove their stupidity up their asses.

    6. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are already safety devices on guns. Its called a safety, or 3 piece trigger, or you know the mother of all safety features... KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE FUCKING TRIGGER.

      Unless the police and military adopt smart gun technology, then you arent going to get civilians to adopt it.

    7. Re: RF? by thoughtlover · · Score: 1

      So instead let's just not have safety devices because they might fail.

      It's called a gun lock... every responsible owner has one for each gun or rifle they have. Gun lockers/safes are good options, too. Most gun owners that get their gun used on them have zero experience using firearms. Tech can always be circumvented so it's not gonna work on guns anymore than the administration so desperately wants.

      --
      No sig for you! Come back one year!
    8. Re:RF? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Why?

      I mean suppose you are in a school or other gun free zone and someone opens fire. They shoot the only other armed person in the building which is the off duty sheriff working the security detail and you all scatter. You unfortunately get trapped between the dead cop and a wall with no way out. The active shooter is not headed towards you but an attempted escape would bring you right in his path.

      So do you really want to risk death by grabbing the dead cop's gun- even if you do not use it and keep it as a last resort to protect yourself and the other few trapped alongside you should the shooter come back your way (which I think many people would do rather than stare death in the face and go after the active shooter), I mean seriously, you don't have to be a hero or anything, but your one chance of possibly living should he line people up and ask their religion just before killing them and turning to you like what happened in Washington state, might be the ability to shoot him dead while he thinks he can kill others unimpeded.

      So your hypothetical choices would be to die by the shooter or die trying to save yourself from the shooter should your DNA lock idea become a reality. And No, this isn't some strawman remark.Just replace you with your friends, family, or any other person. Do you really think that call would be prudent- to endanger their lives over some ill thought out concept? Presumably you are worried about people taking other people's guns and shooting people so this scenario is part of what you are worried about.

    9. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gun locks are for people who don't have gun safes. From the locksmith perspective: most of them are terrible locks that are easily bypassed/picked.

      If you have a CCW permit: you don't need a gun lock for your carry gun because it's always on your person.

    10. Re: RF? by daninaustin · · Score: 1

      It's pointless. There are already 400 million (or more) guns in the US. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

    11. Re:RF? by vel-ex-tech · · Score: 1

      Hey, let me throw this out there. I've just started researching where I want to get my concealed carry training (apparently there are more advanced self defense courses available so I might take those as well), but if I haven't purchased a weapon by the time "smart" (read: dumb, unsafe, script kiddie friendly, and rapist and other violent attacker-friendly) guns are mandated, I'll make it my project to crack the "smart" lock.

      I don't need no damned "smart" shit getting in my way if a Christian jihadist wants to get violent with me and wants to send me to my supposed master, Lucifer. The last thing I need is for things to escalate to the point I've begun getting my gun out just to point it at the bastard, have him make a move that has a very real threat of disabling me (read, rendering unconscious and possibly fatally injured if lack of emergency treatment--remember, I'm a little, tiny person and the prospect of a jihadist with three times the body mass of me taking swings at me is... unnerving), and have it refuse to fire because the humidity is wrong, my heart is racing, or one of the other millions of reasons it won't recognize my fingerprint or whatever the hell screwball scheme they're thinking of implementing.

      tl;dr Hell no, and I will hack/remove/disable it if my pistol has such a thing.

      Disclaimer for European readers: please take me in as a refugee!!!!

    12. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Of course it's a fucking option. To do NOTHING is exactly how I interpret the 2nd amendment. How the fuck do you interpret SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED?

      I don't want a goddamn gun with batteries that fail. I have a revolver as my home defense weapon because I want something that has proven itself reliable over the last 150+ years. Not some pile of crap with a chip that gets to decide whether or not it will fire depending on my fingerprints or combination code or some other factor.

      SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. How much clearer could they have made it? We've already given up machine guns (fully automatic), large clips (over 10+ here in California), supressors (silencers). What else should we consider to be reasonable? The 2nd amendment is about defense against the GOVERNMENT. The Federalist Papers make that pretty clear. I think it's pretty reasonable to say that to defend myself against the Feds, a machine gun in not unreasonable tool to have.. But fuck.. we gave 'em up...

    13. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why is nothing no longer an option? moral panics often lead to poor policy because of this reasoning. doing nothing may very well be the best option here.

    14. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But wow, we since we already have all this toothpaste all over the place, why don't we just stop squeezing?

    15. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Might also be why the US is the only country to have true freedom of speech.

    16. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like when your toddler picks it up and decides to pull the trigger?

      Or better yet, why even worry about trigger safety? So what if a pistol discharged in a crowded store because nobody at the manufacturing facility could be bothered to check things?

    17. Re: RF? by dywolf · · Score: 0

      they said the same thing about semiauto firearms 100+ years ago.
      what happened?
      they worked on the engineering until now no one even questions their reliability, and semiautos are the preferred weapon type for a lot of folks.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    18. Re:RF? by dywolf · · Score: 0

      exactly.

      they either figure something that works, or they dont.
      (and in fact there are already a couple smart guns that do work reliably, they just dont get sold here because certain segments of the gun rights crowd have repeatedly made death threats again the makers and sellers......the irony kills me)

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    19. Re: RF? by roc97007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Exactly, this will simply waste tax payer dollars and add complexity to a safety device adding to the likelyhood it will fail to perform when needed.

      So instead let's just not have safety devices because they might fail.

      Nod. Ok, let's field test them with patrol officers, (because officers having their gun taken and used against them is apparently a real thing) and then gradually make them a requirement for all branches of government. When the secret service adopts them, (according to the news, a secret service agent lost his gun just recently) I'll be right behind.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    20. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      same thing applies to market adoption: it will either be a commercial success (darring said death threats), or it wont.

      chances are it will though. the idea of a gun that cant be used against you, or accidentally by your children, two things that are statistically more likely to happen than you actually needing your weapon.

    21. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I mean suppose you are in a school or other gun free zone and someone opens fire. They shoot the only other armed person in the building which is the off duty sheriff working the security detail and you all scatter. You unfortunately get trapped between the dead cop and a wall with no way out. The active shooter is not headed towards you but an attempted escape would bring you right in his path.

      Well if the solution was implemented as suggested the active shooter would never have been able to pull the trigger either. Look, you make policy decisions based on real problems not movie plots. Thus far active shooters in schools and public places have become an actual problem. Your Die Hard fantasy has yet to eventuate.

    22. Re:RF? by grcumb · · Score: 1

      How the fuck do you interpret SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED?

      That depends. How the fuck do you interpret A WELL REGULATED MILITIA?

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    23. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      same thing applies to market adoption: it will either be a commercial success (darring said death threats), or it wont.

      chances are it will though. the idea of a gun that cant be used against you, or accidentally by your children, two things that are statistically more likely to happen than you actually needing your weapon, is a definite advantage.

    24. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It blows me away that your (and presumably many American's) mind works this way.

      What the heck is wrong with you people?

    25. Re:RF? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      Reality misses you

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    26. Re:RF? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Why not? The shooter in Newtown stole the guns from his mother after killing her. His DNA would most likely have been in the database. The guy in Washington state purchased them legally, and the recent ones in California all were purchased by a neighbor and given to them..

      It's more than likely that in any of those situations the gun's master database would have allowed the mass shootings.

    27. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Europe, Australia, Canada would all like to have a word with you, about reality.

      If that thesis were true, you would expect the US to have a stronger more resilient democracy than our peer nations.
      We dont.

      Ergo, his conclusion isnt worth a warm bucket of spit.

    28. Re:RF? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      I like Bill, and Bill may like the guy, but that doesnt mean the guy has drawn a valid conclusion.
      And Bill doesn't always make the best choices.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    29. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You don't need gun locks on every firearm to be responsible. I don't own a single gun lock, keep all of them loaded and have never had a problem.

      You need things like locks if you have kids and fail at parenting.

      Guns sat loaded in the non-locking gun cabinet growing up and never had any issues either. Difference ? We were taught what they were and to give them the respect they demanded.

    30. Re:RF? by dywolf · · Score: 1, Troll

      No, that is the most dangerous myth about the 2nd Amendment.
      It was never about being able to stop a rogue government.

      The citizenry would find a way to do with with or without hte 2nd Amendment (indeed, with the overwhelmingly conservative (and anti-government) nature of the majority of military and police, just who the flying fuck do you think a rogue government is going to get to enforce its will???)

      Reality is the 2nd amendment is about the ability of the militia to exist and be capable of fulfilling its mission of assisting in national defense.
      The early nation did not have sufficient army to provide for the defense. the idea being that they would be reinforced with citizen militia.
      The army then provides the knowledge and experience, and heavy weapon such as cannon, and the militia provides the bodies.
      The army lacked the equipment to supply every militia though, so it was necessary for the militia to be able to supply its own arms.

      Today, with the militia now being hte National Guard, and the National Guard having no trouble supplying its members with gear, its safe to say needs for providing for the national defense have changed.

      Some light reading to correct your ignorance:
      http://www.slate.com/articles/...
      http://www.slate.com/articles/...

      If Gun Massacres Are the Price of Liberty, We Need to Reconsider What Liberty Means.

      If constant gun massacres are an inevitable result of American liberty—if we cannot be truly free without letting every madman, abuser, and hothead with a grudge get guns, if we cannot send our children to school without fearing they may be slaughtered in a hail of bullets—we need to reconsider what liberty truly means.

      And you should also not pretend that we dont regularly restrict or limit the rights in the constitution over various greater public interests.

      Freedom of speech has its limits: cant yell fire in the movie theater.
      So does religion: you dont get to impose your religion on others even if its what your religious expression or observance calls for
      Assembly: cant block public streets, or you must get a permit to do so

      So dont pretend that the 2nd Amendment is any different, or any more sacred and inviolate than the others. There are times and places to limit it. By imposing background checks, on ALL sales. By requiring training to prove your anret incompetent and a threat to others. By requiring proper storage, so that unauthorized persons, such as children, get access.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    31. Re:RF? by XXongo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He seems to be clueless. Guns are ubiquitous in Somalia, which has no functional government at all, much less a democratic one. While England seems to get by just fine with handguns banned.

    32. Re:RF? by XXongo · · Score: 1

      Of course it's a fucking option. To do NOTHING is exactly how I interpret the 2nd amendment. How the fuck do you interpret SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED?

      I interpret it as meaning "the government can't forbid citizens from owning arms."

      What it doesn't say is "the government can't look into whether is is possible buy safer guns for their own use."

      Are you actually an idiot, or just pretending to be one?

    33. Re:RF? by Woldscum · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Regulated" as in well trained. Not as in governed by laws. A "well trained militia".

      The 4th definition of "Regulated".
      4. To put or maintain in order: regulate one's eating habits.

      "Militia" = All able bodied males 18 to 45 years of age.

      How do you think the Selective Service and Draft are legal? Every male 18 to 45 IS the militia.

      SO this is how the law sees it.

      "Males aged 18 to 45 well trained in using guns, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

      Reply to This Parent Share

    34. Re: RF? by Ksevio · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Unfortunately it's more likely for a gun to shoot someone in an accident or a kid getting a hold of it than for it to be fired "when needed". A good number of the times it's "needed" is for suicide too.

      This is like the people that are afraid of seat belts because if they fall in a river they won't be able to get out of their car fast enough when the reality is they are more likely to be in a crash where the seat belt will save them.

    35. Re:RF? by kheldan · · Score: 1

      Never mind jamming anything. Do they really think that anything like this is going to prevent criminals from firing stolen guns? Bet you that within a month or less there'd be a hack to disable the lock and make the gun fire for anybody. Stupid, stupid, stupid! What's wrong with trigger locks? Just make tougher trigger locks!

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    36. Re:RF? by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 0

      How long do you thin slavery would have lasted in the US had the slaves been able to own guns?

    37. Re: RF? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      Tech can always be circumvented so it's not gonna work

      Are you making an argument that tech doesn't work anywhere or is it only in the magical realm of guns that tech doesn't work "because it can be circumvented"?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    38. Re:RF? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      Doesn't really tally with history though, does it? Democracy often comes either when the common people rise up with overwhelming numbers, like the French Revolution, or when they form an army, or when they convince the existing army to turn against the government.

      If what this guy says were true then countries like China are screwed, since the people will never get better weapons than the state. Yet China seems to be getting more democratic...

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    39. Re:RF? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0

      As long as we're talking about Carroll Quigley, you know that he was a conspiracy nutter, don't you?

      One distinctive feature of Quigley's historical writings was his assertion that secret societies have played a significant role in recent world history. His writing on this topic has made Quigley famous among many who investigate conspiracy theories.[2]:96, 98 Quigley's views are particularly notable because the majority of reputable academic historians profess skepticism about conspiracy theories.[21]

      I had a few bughouse crazy professors that had a positive impact on my thinking, but that doesn't mean I'm going to quote their horseshit in a Slashdot discussion.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    40. Re:RF? by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1
      Well, the guy was a respected historian and pent his life studying the subject so probably has more credence than some randm internet guy who judges based on tv viewing.

      It's kinda like when there hundreds of climate scientists are given equal weight on tv to some guy who read a book and works in a gas station.

    41. Re: RF? by sumdumass · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Do you want to guess who else minds likely work that way? I'll give you a hint. They might be the victims of previous mass shootings. I can only guess but i would wager that most of the dead in France's terrorist attacks and at the mass shootings all around the world wished they had the means to save their own life shortly before being killed by the shooters. Do you think they sat there and said I'm anti gun so kill me and get it over with? Of course you don't. But outside of wishing the killers would leave them alone, don't you think they wished for anything that could help them? Even anti gun people wish someone with a gun (likely the cops ) would show up in time to save their lives.

    42. Re:RF? by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Because "nothing" is no longer an option.

      But it used to be an option? Because violent crime of all kinds, including that conducted with a firearm is way down. Down over 40% since the 1990's, even as millions and millions more people have purchased guns. It's almost as if owning guns generally doesn't actually cause people to commit violent crimes. Funny about that.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    43. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too bad in your example no gun was used. Where, exactly, in that example was the part about Christian Jihad? The next time you want to blame a demographic for your problems, try giving an accurate example. Like this, "I need to protect myself from all these violent gays! This one link I give will prove that all gay people are cruel violent individuals." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer

    44. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sigh. If you're going to use the Somalia thing, at least do a little research. First, they now have a so-called government. Second, during the wild anarchy period with no government, the standard of living in Somalia grew faster than when there was a government and that of the surrounding governmented countries. Sure, it's still a giant shit hole compared to any industrialized country, but that has nothing to do with it's former lack of government. Actually, the reason western countries are so industrialized is because they adopted liberal democracies a few years back, while most African countries live under corrupt totalitarian rule. It should be no surprise that people did better without a single dictator ruling over them all. But I understand, you like to feel warm and fuzzy with a big government watching over you with a total monopoly of force

    45. Re: RF? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      If you have a toddler in the house, and you're not a complete fucking idiot, you would at the very least not keep a round in the chamber. The less idiotic would at least have it out of reach, or use a locking container or trigger lock.

      Of course, if it's a revolver, the "don't keep one in the pipe" part is a bit harder, but the rest still applies.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    46. Re: RF? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      I still don't buy the suicide angle - if someone is serious about ending their life, they're going to find a way. A gun might be convenient, but I don't see a huge call for razor blade control due to suicide incidents.

      It's seems like a convenient pile-on.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    47. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Move to America friend - we still have standard capacity magazines, silencers, and SBRs (granted the NFA sucks, but at least it's possible at the moment). Made the move from the People's Republic of NJ a few years ago, best decision I ever made. It's too bad so many people get their firearm education from the movies so things like silencers are so heavily regulated.

    48. Re:RF? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      What's wrong with trigger locks, is that they aren't used enough.

      I say that as an owner of two handguns, so I'm not some gun control shill.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    49. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please read the US Supreme Court rulings in Heller and Miller and correct your ignorance - I don't care what some rag says when the highest court in the land has firmly stated that you are wrong. The National Guard is not the militia, well regulated means "to know how to shoot a fucking gun", and the ownership of firearms is a protected individual right. But I guess if you get your news from such a biased piece of infotainment, it's not surprising you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

    50. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's a lot more likely for a gun used in self defense to deter the attacker *without* being fired.

      Lots of household appliances and items kill both adults and children by accident every year, but we don't ban those.

    51. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good luck with your freedom to speak on Nazism in Germany.

    52. Re:RF? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Because "nothing" is no longer an option.

      Gun ownership is up, gun crime is down in spite of the popularization of mass shootings in the media. Nothing seems to be working, albeit slowly. Maybe we should do nothing. It would be better than doing the wrong thing.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    53. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your suggested limits on rights are not limits at all - they're merely the rights of others - ie the right of the theater owner to discourage false panic in his theater. (I never understood the crowded theater thing, it has nothing to do with the 1A) Same thing with not being allowed to force your religion on others - you can't force another person to do shit, religious or otherwise. And obviously you can't block roads since they belong to the state and you just can't fuck with other people's things. The only analogy to guns here is you don't have the right to go around shooting people. These are only limits to rights in the sense of 'where your nose ends, mine begins'. We don't put preemptive limits on other rights out of fear of preventing some corner case - why would we do it with guns? The fact is firearm ownership in the US has exploded in the past decade, but violent crime (including gun clime!) is way way down. The majority of gun crime is related to the drug war, with overly hyped mass shootings and young children accidentally shooting themselves or others the rare case. If you want to reduce gun crime, end the war on drugs - any other suggestion is total crap.

    54. Re: RF? by Theaetetus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So instead let's just not have safety devices because they might fail.

      It's called a gun lock... every responsible owner has one for each gun or rifle they have. Gun lockers/safes are good options, too.

      One of the major points in the Supreme Court's decision in DC v. Heller was over trigger-locks - Heller, the allegedly "responsible gun owner" didn't want to use a trigger lock, which DC required. SCOTUS held by a narrow majority that the requirement was unconstitutional because it made it "impossible" to use the gun for self-defense.

    55. Re:RF? by tsotha · · Score: 1

      The hell it ain't. Doing nothing is, in fact, the best option.

    56. Re:RF? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      One distinctive feature of Quigley's historical writings was his assertion that secret societies have played a significant role in recent world history.

      I had a few bughouse crazy professors that had a positive impact on my thinking, but that doesn't mean I'm going to quote their horseshit in a Slashdot discussion.

      It's a proven fact that secret societies have played a significant role in recent world history. What percentage of US presidents have belonged to one of these creepy school/alumni clubs where they dance around naked in the woods once a year after being dicks all year to people who dance around naked in the woods all year? Granted, these societies are losing their secrecy as they are infiltrated, as members speak up, etc. The extent of their influence remains secret. I'm not claiming that any of these groups of self-entitled welfare queens are pulling all of the strings, there is never anything so formal nor controlled as that. It's just the Old Boys' network writ both small and large, and one feeds the next.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    57. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This is only true if include suicides (60%+ of all gun deaths) as 'being used against you' while excluding defensive gun uses where no shots are fired (90%+ of all defensive uses). This stat has been so thoroughly debunked I can't believe people still use it.

    58. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should go google up the articles about the public in Austria and Germany buying up all of the weapons they can get their hands on, now that they're being flooded with criminal immigrants.

      It's sad to see people play the holier-than-thou card against Americans without realizing that when the tables are turned and they feel that their safety is endangered, they will do the exact same thing.

    59. Re:RF? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      "Regulated" as in well trained. Not as in governed by laws. A "well trained militia".

      WRONG. Nice try, though. That's not what it meant. It meant "to control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc.:", in this case, that standing armies are injurious to freedom. It meant "to adjust to some standard or requirement, as amount, degree, etc.:" and "to adjust so as to ensure accuracy of operation:", and "to put in good order", as in, to do the will of the people. It had nothing to do with training. It had to do with the direction in which it was pointed. If you read the writings of the people who wrote and supported the thing, it is clear that this was the purpose, and not for providing for the national defense.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    60. Re: RF? by RightwingNutjob · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not the government's job to protect you from your own bad decisionmaking by taking away everyone else's freedoms. Suicide is sad. So is drug addiction and alcoholism. Government has no business solving those problems at the margins with a wrecking ball to the middle. I don't want my behavior conditioned by you on other people's sad stories.

    61. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know there are only about 100 cases of children shooting themselves a year? Any inflated number you see is because 'child' is being defined to include older teen gang bangers (aka not an accident). Your kids are far more likely to drown yet you don't try to close all the pools in your neighborhood. Why is that? Why do you need a swimming pool?

    62. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Middle east disagrees.

      Or maybe that is gunocracy.

    63. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Be on your guard, because the traitors in power are looking to destroy that right as well.

    64. Re: RF? by Ksevio · · Score: 0

      Suicidal thoughts can come and go - most other methods of suicide require a lot of work, are painful, or are slow enough that the suicidal person can change their mind and get help. Guns are different in that they're fast (no time to stop once the pain hits) and potentially available.

      Aside from the suicides, there are lots of gun accidents every year - if there were razor blade accidents, you can bet we'd be implementing better safety standards for them.

    65. Re: RF? by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Are you making an argument that tech doesn't work anywhere or is it only in the magical realm of guns that tech doesn't work "because it can be circumvented"?

      He's saying DRM doesn't work, even when you apply it to guns, because of the same principles that apply in every other situation. Don't be disingenuous, it's boring and does nothing to move the debate forwards.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    66. Re:RF? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Guns are also ubiquitous (mandatory, even) in Switzerland - and it has a very strong republican-style of Government. Maybe it's not the presence or absence of guns that's the problem - it's the culture of the citizens.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    67. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. It is already common practice to disable what are seen as superfluous safeties like magazine disconnects. I carry a weapon every day and I would never carry a weapon with a mechanical safety, much less an electronic one. To the unknowning this may seem crazy, but is actually the normal - most modern pistols have no mechanical safety or offer one only as an option.

    68. Re:RF? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Per the Supreme Court - it means well functioning. The right to keep and bear arms applies for personal protection (DC v Heller) and is incorporated across the States (Chicago v. McDonald). The right to own - and carry - a firearm in defense of oneself is the crux of the 2nd Amendment.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    69. Re: RF? by Ksevio · · Score: 0

      But no one's losing freedoms in this case except the freedom to hurt others. Just like we don't let you have the freedom to drive in the opposing lane of traffic.

    70. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I know man. Same with me and soup. When I'm hungry I want soup *fast* so I leave my stove burner on all the time, with an empty pot waiting for incoming soup. I refuse to see any correlation between this practice and the daily house fires that occur in my kitchen, because the second amendment protects my right to bear assault soup.

    71. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's some George Mason quotes for you. I would take this fellow's words on the subject over some recent, revisionist claptrap any time:

      To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.

      Who are the militia, if they be not the people of this country...? I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers.

      That the people have a Right to mass and to bear arms; that a well regulated militia composed of the Body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper natural and safe defense of a free State...

      You keep advocating that we focus our efforts on fighting symptoms while ignoring the root problems to great peril. Any time someone tries to bring up the root issues of violence, they get screamed down by the PC-police. This is why the problem continues. It has nothing to do with "guns", and everything to do with societal, cultural, and economic issues.

      Don't be fooled, the government doesn't care about gun violence between citizens, only that the violence cannot be against themselves. If they gave the slightest care about this issue, they wouldn't be shipping guns en-masse to terrorists in other countries to overthrow governments who don't bend over for US policy.

    72. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It turns out there are laws against shooting people just like driving in the wrong lane.

    73. Re: RF? by RoccamOccam · · Score: 1

      Accidental moderation removal.

    74. Re:RF? by Shompol · · Score: 2

      Thus far active shooters in schools and public places have become an actual problem.

      You are confusing "evening news material" and "an actual problem".

    75. Re: RF? by stooo · · Score: 2

      You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, but you can force it down the drain.

      --
      aaaaaaa
    76. Re: RF? by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      But no one's losing freedoms in this case except the freedom to hurt others. Just like we don't let you have the freedom to drive in the opposing lane of traffic.

      No one currently has "the freedom to hurt others". Taking away firearms does nothing to that freedom because it currently does not exist.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    77. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You'd be surprised what would happen over 2 generations or so.

    78. Re:RF? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      No, that is the most dangerous myth about the 2nd Amendment.
      It was never about being able to stop a rogue government.

      No. It was about preventing a rogue government. The purpose was to avoid the need for a standing military, which was already known to be dangerous to the populace. That's why it's supposedly illegal to use the military against the people, except they do that all the time. The National Guard is part of the Army. It's regularly used against the people, even to suppress protest. THAT was the purpose of the second amendment — to avoid tyranny by avoiding a standing military. That all went out the window, and it's part of the current condition. We have a standing military. It is harmful to freedom. The need for the second amendment is illustrated. Sadly, it was not made sufficiently clear when written.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    79. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop with the lame arguments.
      Firstly it's legal to talk about nazis in Germany. The law bans being a nazi or encouraging people to follow their ideology.
      Secondly, that's not an argument against democracy. It's a law the public wanted to improve international relations, basically saying "We know we had a war over this, but we aren't like that now" to the world.

    80. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When the secret service adopts them, I'll be right behind.

      Amen brother. If "safe" guns aren't fit to protect the President and the first family, why should I be forced to rely upon them to protect my family? What's good for the goose is good for the gander as the saying goes.

    81. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The suicide rate in Japan is much higher than the US, and they have very few guns.

    82. Re: RF? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      You've never actually looked up the meaning of that phrase, have you? I suggest you do so.

    83. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd call over 260 mass shootings in the past year an active problem.

      Your own fucking president has told you that you have a gun problem. When are you going to admit that you have a gun problem?

    84. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And I'd wager most of the dead in America's mass shootings are thinking last thoughts along the lines of "oh shit I wished it would have been harder for this crazy fucker to have got a gun".

    85. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jdjdd

    86. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get back to me when your neighbourhood watch has tanks, drones, mass surveillance and nuclear warheads.

    87. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't call the most minimal of harm reduction measures a moral panic.

    88. Re:RF? by ElKry · · Score: 1

      If they were allowed to own things, they wouldn't be slaves. Slaves were owned, not owners.

    89. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So? Violent crime conducted without a gun is less harmful than that with. Getting rid of guns would mean fewer people killed by violent crime, even as the rate of violent crime reduces because of other factors.

    90. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even though suicidal thoughts come and go, it's not like the same person won't just grab the bleach or pills and drink them down. This is evidenced by the cross-country suicide rate with all methods. The US is quite average. Are you suggesting that getting rid of guns would magically make us have way more of those people alive?

    91. Re:RF? by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      I mean suppose you are in a school or other gun free zone and someone opens fire. They shoot the only other armed person in the building which is the off duty sheriff working the security detail and you all scatter. You unfortunately get trapped between the dead cop and a wall with no way out. The active shooter is not headed towards you but an attempted escape would bring you right in his path.

      You've clearly spent a lot of time thinking about this. It's a very... detailed scenario.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    92. Re:RF? by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      Might be why the US leads the world in molesting travellers, secret mass surveillance of its citizens, bombing countries on flimsy pretexts, and legal corruption in high office.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    93. Re:RF? by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 2, Informative

      Gun ownership is up and gun crime is down has to be the most single dimensional means of thinking I've ever heard of. As if there's a single variable involved... add more guns and less will be used.

      1) It's likely the methods we used for measuring gun crimes has changed. ... minor impact to shift
      2) Law enforcement has in fact gotten much better
      3) The US has placed a measurable percentage of their population into prisons during this time.
      4) The criminals are more afraid of getting caught because of mass surveillance, better forensics, etc...
      5) Gas stations now have thick bullet proof glass surrounding their cash registers... only in America haha
      6) Cash is becoming less common. There is also less than $50 in a cash drawer anymore. The risk vs. the gain doesn't add up
      7) The guy in the nice suit one the street has change for a parking meter in his pocket. The teenager with the Nike Airs has a credit card. There's no money to be had anymore from a hold up.
      8) Banks have buttons under every counter to call the cops in an emergency.
      9) It's easier to simply steal money in large sums through other forms of fraud... why use a gun?

      I can go on for a long time... but your argument about more guns = less gun crime is pure stupid. I honestly have no problem with people owning guns for hunting and sport shooting. I do have issues with idiots who think guns are the answer for protection and also think it's really idiotic when people think that if they have enough weapons at home, they can overthrow a tyranny run by a guy with luxury bunkers, armored tanks, drones, etc... it would be like a hoard of flies trying to knock over an elephant.

    94. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the U.S. is not very democratic then? Seeing that citizens are usually only allowed 'assault rifles' or less - while the governments have cannons, grenades, tanks, mines, flamethrowers, submarines, aircraft carriers, nukes . . .

    95. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, no one is saying more guns == less crime, the point is that more guns != more crime. The only reason gun control is even talked about is because of a few overly hyped minority cases that leads people into believing there is actually a problem with gun crime. The simple fact that there isn't really a problem even though ownership is way up should at least suggest that doing nothing is a viable option. As far as why crime is down, probably has more to due with an increased standard of living and reduced birth rates - there's plenty of solid data that guns have no bearing on crime since the main limiting factor in crime is *gasp* criminals.

    96. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doesn't really tally with history though, does it?

      Aaaaand you're about to refute yourself...

      Democracy often comes either when the common people rise up with overwhelming numbers, like the French Revolution,

      "Overwhelming numbers" will get access to everything the government has, by the very definition of "overwhelming". To use your own example, "storming the Bastille" gave your "overwhelming numbers" access to the weapons stored in the fortress...

      or when they form an army, or when they convince the existing army to turn against the government.

      Forming an army has nothing to do with weapons capable of confronting government power? And convincing the army to turn against the existing government just couldn't give the masses weapons as good as the government's, now could it?

      If what this guy says were true then countries like China are screwed, since the people will never get better weapons than the state. Yet China seems to be getting more democratic...

      Seems?

      Seems as if you made GP post's point.

      Why don't YOU study the history of totalitarian regimes? The first acts of many totalitarian regimes when they come to power often include some form of weapon confiscation. An act that Obama sure seems to want to carry out...

    97. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In order for a safety device to be effective it's kind of necessary to figure out what you're trying to prevent. Guns already have devices to prevent them from unintentionally firing. Yes, some people don't use then right but unless your goal is to keep the weapon from firing at all ever, more of that won't help.

      Maybe you're trying to restrict guns to 'authorized users'. In that case, yes, that the tech might fail is a very good reason to not have it. Guns are mechanically simple. That's kind of the point. This isn't like your RFID building key where if you don't get a good read you try again. Take that time in some situations and you're dead. Who in their right mind would want a 'safety system' that has a probable failure rate greater than that of what you're allegedly trying to make safe? Never mind that guns are mechanically simple. Any such thing will be easily bypassed by those who won't trust their lives to it, and unlike other modifications, this kind would be undetectable by the casual observer. Meaning that smart cops, smart soldiers, and smart people generally won't allow themselves to be bothered by this crap.

      So yeah, it's useless, and frankly given who's proposing it under what circumstances the whole point is for it to BE useless. This president comes from a city with a long history of gun grabbing. Ineffective gun grabbing I might add. So you'll forgive those of us who disbelieve the notion of any of this is to make people safer.

    98. Re: RF? by sumdumass · · Score: 2

      You mean like a law that wasn't enforced? Like the navy yard and Georgia tech shooters who were diagnosed with mental illnesses but no one reported it so they could go ahead and purchase guns? Or the Newtown guy who killed his mother and stole her guns? Or the staw puchase for Santa Barbara? All of which is and was illegal.

      But i see you limited your comments to in America. Is that because it was already hard to get the gun in both of France's terrorist attacks, Denmark, the Philippines, China and the many other places in 2015 alone?

    99. Re: RF? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      A gun locker, much less a gun safe, is a much much better option than gun locks. Back in the day consumer reports checked a number of them - they managed to fire approximately half the guns with the lock still on. For two of them, they found that pulling the trigger was easier with the 'trigger lock' on.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    100. Re:RF? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      History doesn't even tally with that I'm afraid :( The vast majority of times when there has been a popular uprising, the resulting government has been far from democratic, often resulting in fragmentation, oppression and violence.

      Even the governments installed into Iraq and Afghanistan by external forces are not truly democratic because certain political view points are not allowed, certain parties are banned from standing, and often elections do not include disaffected groups.

    101. Re: RF? by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      Exactly, this will simply waste tax payer dollars and add complexity to a safety device adding to the likelyhood it will fail to perform when needed.

      RFID is more likely for identification of the device not for authentication of a user of that device

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    102. Re:RF? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2

      I really dont think your founding fathers had pictured a time when American society was so dysfunctional that you have a situation where gun ownership is akin to worship, people collecting guns as if they were beanie babies, gangs turning inner cities into essentially war zones, and that each and every year there are the more than twice the number of homicides from gun violence than the US lost during the entire American Revolution.

    103. Re:RF? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      now that's just an absolutely idiotic argument

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    104. Re:RF? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      I see the gun nuts have mod points today, modding every rational person down.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    105. Re: RF? by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      Do you want to guess who else minds likely work that way? I'll give you a hint. They might be the victims of previous mass shootings. I can only guess but i would wager that most of the dead in France's terrorist attacks and at the mass shootings all around the world wished they had the means to save their own life shortly before being killed by the shooters. Do you think they sat there and said I'm anti gun so kill me and get it over with? Of course you don't. But outside of wishing the killers would leave them alone, don't you think they wished for anything that could help them? Even anti gun people wish someone with a gun (likely the cops ) would show up in time to save their lives.

      Let's compare the number of Americans killed by gun deaths on US soil (406,496) vs. the number of Americans killed by terrorism globally for the same period 2001 to 2013 (3,380), and then consider if easy availability of guns for self defense is realistic or just a nice dream.

      http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10...

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    106. Re:RF? by rally2xs · · Score: 1

      "[The] governor [is] constitutionally the commander of the militia of
      the State, that is to say, of every man in it able
      to bear arms." --Thomas Jefferson to A. L. C. Destutt de Tracy, 1811.

    107. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > might fail

      This isn't a seatbelt. If there is a method to remotely disable a gun, then that gun sucks, and the "safety device" is killing the owner of the gun.

    108. Re: RF? by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately it's more likely for a gun to shoot someone in an accident or a kid getting a hold of it than for it to be fired "when needed". A good number of the times it's "needed" is for suicide too.

      The only loaded firearm in my house is by my bed and does not have a round chambered. Hard for it to accidentally discharge if the pin can't hit a primer. No kids in the house currently, but when we do until they are old enough no firearm will be kept where the kid can reach it (thinking about getting those new shelves that have hidden dropdown storage for firearms), and when they are old enough they will be taught how to use one properly. As for suicide, well, I don't believe in it, my wife is Catholic and she will raise any potential kids Catholic so no need to worry there.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    109. Re: RF? by MitchDev · · Score: 1

      No mod points to mod you up when I need them.

      These techno-safety measures are a waste of time and money

    110. Re: RF? by MitchDev · · Score: 0

      Good luck with that...,fascist

      The only people who want to get rid of guns are the cowards and those who want to take power over others...

    111. Re: RF? by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 2

      If you have small children it is best to keep firearms locked up in a proper firearm safe. When mine are not in the safe but not being used they have their locks on them (I personally like the cable locks that you can thread through the receiver). Also as kids get older you do need to remove the curiosity about guns and also teach them proper handling and usage of firearms. Then again I am not one of those people who feels the need pack heat when going grocery shopping.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    112. Re:RF? by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      How the fuck do you interpret SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED?

      That depends. How the fuck do you interpret A WELL REGULATED MILITIA?

      It says a well regulated militia is needed for the defense of the country. As the US was not intended to have a large standing army it was intended that any military action on US soil would involve the assistance of local militias. Now, what is a militia? Some would have you believe the National Guard is a "well regulated militia", and while it is certainly "well regulated" it is most definitely not a militia as it is armed and supplied by the US government. In a militia the members are armed with personal weapons. You have to look at the whole text "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Note the comma I bolded. That is essentially breaking up the amendment into 2 separate clauses. A simple rereading of the Amendment would be "Because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms should not be infringed".

      Now, I also believe a militia can only be called up by a goverment official (whether local, state, or federal) and that you can't just declare yourself a militia. So for all you armed wackos camped out in federally owned buildings in a wildlife refuge in Oregon, you have occupied federal lands by force and are now at best domestic terrorists, worst case you have officially declared war against the US government. Think Whiskey Rebellion. Or maybe Jon Brown and the Harper's Ferry Armory would be a better example, minus the hostages.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    113. Re:RF? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      Yeah, if only those first graders in Newtown had been armed....

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    114. Re: RF? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      the difference is the attacks in France are an outlier.
      an Aberration.
      a rare occurrence.
      That's the primary reason it was so shocking, particularly within France.

      In the US those attacks would just be another regular Wednesday night.
      More than 3000 people have died in the US to firearm violence since the Paris attacks.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    115. Re:RF? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      the Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited, absolute right any more than does the First Amendment.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    116. Re: RF? by stooo · · Score: 1

      And the rest of the world outside the US.

      --
      aaaaaaa
    117. Re: RF? by bfpierce · · Score: 1

      We don't have the military power to force it back down the drain, hate to break it to ya.

    118. Re: RF? by MitchDev · · Score: 1

      Like I said, cowards

    119. Re: RF? by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      You don't need gun locks on every firearm to be responsible. I don't own a single gun lock, keep all of them loaded and have never had a problem.

      You need things like locks if you have kids and fail at parenting.

      Guns sat loaded in the non-locking gun cabinet growing up and never had any issues either. Difference ? We were taught what they were and to give them the respect they demanded.

      Exactly. If there is a home invasion, the last thing you want to be fumbling with is finding the key to the lock and then loading your firearm.

    120. Re:RF? by bfpierce · · Score: 1

      That's what the prohibitionists said.

      Failure to compromise is what screwed them, it'll screw you too.

    121. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      then your argument is pure stupid too. If more guns do not equal more crime, then maybe guns aren't the problem!

    122. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You aren't using the gun locks correctly if the firearm can be still fired...

    123. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Says the man with a mod point.

    124. Re:RF? by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Because "nothing" is no longer an option.

      Given the massive fall in violent crime over the last couple of decades that we achieved by "doing nothing" about gun control, and given that gun control has never been shown to cause a reduction in violent crime, "doing nothing" seems like a good option.

      Rather than hysterical shrieking designed to encourage doing nothing, maybe you could suggest alternative approaches.

      Sure, there are several things we can do to reduce violent crime further: end the war on drugs, stop subsidizing single motherhood, end racist policies by the federal government, among other things. Obama was elected to do many of those things, and the fact that he has failed to do anything meaningful about these issues means he is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of Americans. His current gun control efforts and his crying on TV are cosmetic and hypocritical.

    125. Re:RF? by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      They will lose over cost and the fact that enough people have enough distrust of government enforced electronic/software for no one to want to rely on them.

      How many articles do you read on slashdot that countries are refusing to buy US programs due to being afraid the US government is forcing forced backdoors in security?

    126. Re:RF? by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      It's a safe bet. It's illegal to buy a fully automatic (non semi-automatic which the left seem to think is the same thing) gun but it is pretty easy to get a kit to convert your gun to fully automatic.

    127. Re:RF? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Give me the frequencies. I'll have jammers made in China within a month.

      Really? All he is calling for is research into technologies that could possibly be used.

    128. Re: RF? by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Exactly, this will simply waste tax payer dollars and add complexity to a safety device adding to the likelyhood it will fail to perform when needed.

      Is the anti-Obama sentiment (or maybe it's the guns above all else sentiment) so strong on slashdot that even research related to improving gun safety is now a problem?

    129. Re:RF? by ooloorie · · Score: 1
      He didn't say that weapons availability is "necessary and sufficient" for democracy to emerge. In fact, he didn't even postulate a causal relationship. What he is really saying is that if a society meets the pre-conditions necessary for democracy, then it will also trust its citizens with guns. Availability of weapons is an indicator of the state of society and politics, with free and democratic societies having more availability than non-free societies.

      As for Somalia, your example fails on several fronts, in addition to your confusion of "necessary" and "sufficient". First, the guns available in Somalia aren't legally available, which is what Quigley used as the indicator. Second, Somalia was a creation of European imperialism and colonialism, so it is doubtful that having a "functional government" for the entirety of that particular piece of Africa is ever a good idea; below the "national" level, Somalia still have government. Third, creating a democracy takes decades or centuries, and Somalia just started. Fourth, Somalia is economically and politically better off now than it was under "scientific socialism".

    130. Re:RF? by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      If what this guy says were true then countries like China are screwed, since the people will never get better weapons than the state. Yet China seems to be getting more democratic...

      Quigley didn't argue that gun availability is part of the democratization process or that it precedes it; what he is saying is that availability of weapons to common citizens is an indicator of free and democratic societies. (Also, in what way is China getting "more democratic"? There seems to be some economic liberalization, but not much in terms of politics or individual liberties.)

    131. Re:RF? by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      And that has what to do with Quigley's observation? His main point isn't that "guns are necessary for revolutions", but rather "free and democratic societies tend to trust their citizens with guns".

    132. Re: RF? by stooo · · Score: 1

      Your problem.

      --
      aaaaaaa
    133. Re:RF? by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      So from that wikipedia article, democracy peaked in the 1880s because everyone in the US could afford the same guns the government had?

      It obviously depends on your definition of democracy, but I'm pretty sure that at least if I were black, female or poor I'd rather have today's democracy than that of the 1880s.

      I think we all realise that life was probably great if you were a rich healthy WASP male in the Nineteenth Century. The point of democracy is what it's like for the other 99%.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    134. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And anyone who honestly and rigorously looks at the statistics will understand you can't draw generalizations from the per country data. It is currently an emotional argument with anecdotal evidence. Attempts to use data are entirely skewed by any one's particular point of view and are usually dishonest and almost always unsound.

    135. Re:RF? by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      All this detective work on the meaning of the Second Amendment is pointless. The right to be free from federal restrictions on gun ownership or carry is part of the original Constitution, which doesn't list such restrictions as part of the enumerated powers of the federal government. Originally, any such restrictions were left to the states and local governments, and that's probably still the best place to impose such restrictions.

    136. Re:RF? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Yeah. . To bad there weren't any adults around all those first graders either. You know, someone should make a law about that. Maybe something like a teacher or maybe a principle or dean. You know, like they treat older kids in high school or college.

    137. Re: RF? by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      Well for people like you that use guns only as decorational pieces, there's not so much of a problem. It's the ones that carry loaded guns or use them to shoot people entering in the middle of the night that end up being a family member that have the accidents.

    138. Re:RF? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      It's just the Old Boys' network

      But their aims and methods are far from secret. They're feeding and controlling the military-industrial complex.

      Secret society conspiracies only make sense if they are doing something hidden. It would only be news if there was a worldwide conspiracy to abolish wars or poverty or something.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    139. Re: RF? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      What is your point?

      The majority of those US deaths are suicide. But even if you want to count them you are purposely ignoring the fact that gun deaths still occur even when there are laws making guns hard to get. But you are also ignoring the entire points made in order to spout something. Having a gun that would kill you if you needed to use it is a extremely stupid idea and can be the cause of your death either by attempted action or inaction. It would resign you to death with absolutely no chance of changing that unless someone with a gun shows up first

    140. Re: RF? by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      Guns aren't digital content though and this technology doesn't affect your rights with the gun. DRM isn't applicable in this situation.

    141. Re:RF? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      This is why I always wear full body armour and carry a couple of light machine guns and RPGs with me when I go shopping. You never know when you're going to have to be "that guy" who has to save the bus full of orphans from terrorists.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    142. Re:RF? by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      Gun ownership is up, gun crime is down

      Gun ownership is also down as a percentage of people that own guns. The reason some stats show gun ownership to be up is they calculate number of guns divided by number of people when many gun owners have multiple weapons.

    143. Re: RF? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Do you want to guess who else minds likely work that way? I'll give you a hint. They might be the victims of previous mass shootings. I can only guess but i would wager that most of the dead in France's terrorist attacks and at the mass shootings all around the world wished they had the means to save their own life shortly before being killed by the shooters. Do you think they sat there and said I'm anti gun so kill me and get it over with? Of course you don't. But outside of wishing the killers would leave them alone, don't you think they wished for anything that could help them? Even anti gun people wish someone with a gun (likely the cops ) would show up in time to save their lives.

      OK, so everyone has to walk around like a soldier on patrol in Iraq or Afghanistan 24/7?

      Talk about the terrorists winning.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    144. Re: RF? by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      So? Violent crime conducted without a gun is less harmful than that with. Getting rid of guns would mean fewer people killed by violent crime, even as the rate of violent crime reduces because of other factors.

      Oh, I see. So you're all about the numbers. Well then, why not go after things that are FAR, FAR more likely to be involved in violent death? Like, cars operated by teenagers? Or, where are the "executive actions" aimed at the more than hundred thousand people who die unnecessarily every year because of simple errors and sloppy work in hospitals every year?

      If you ARE fixated on, for example, rifles that have "military-looking" features on them (black plastic! OMG!) so that they fall into the meaningless but media-favorite category "assault rifle," then why aren't you focused on knives? Because people use knives to kill their murder victims thousands of more times every year than they do with any sort of rifle, or shotgun or any long gun.

      If you really are of the "if it saves only one life..." type, then you need to re-evaluate your priorities and focus on the things that would really save more lives. Like, say, keeping the known felons who actually do most of the criminal killing behind bars.

      As for your "violent crime without a gun is less harmful" nonsense, keep in mind that the "mass shooting" statistics frequently bandied about include ANY time that more than three people are at least wounded during a single event. So when some gang member drives by a street corner in Chicago and lets loose with a .22 at a group of rivals, and three people get minor flesh wounds or even a scratch, we have a "mass shooting" statistic. But when, as we see in places where guns are severely restricted or completely banned, we get incidents where - for example - a violent guy walks into a school with a knife and kills several kids in moments (Japan, where multiple killings with knives are distressingly not unheard of), it's just a case of very effectively lethal mental health problems combined with a deadly instrument, so sad, very unfortunate ... and the focus correctly goes to mental health where it belongs in the first place. But that gang member who tries (and fails) to kill a bunch of people he wants to see dead? Gun violence! We must control guns!

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    145. Re:RF? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      I'm replying to someone elses comment, so why the hell does my comment have to do with Quigley at all?

    146. Re:RF? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Switzerland's murder rate is lower than all in Europe save those three tiny countries of Lichtenstein, Monaco, and Iceland. OTHER countries may illegally smuggle those guns out and use them - but the culture in Switzerland is different, they don't seem to have an issue with murder, even with the mandatory ownership of guns. It's the culture, not the inanimate object that leads to violence.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    147. Re: RF? by Montezumaa · · Score: 1

      Those people should have armed themselves, as it is the individual's responsibility to provide for one's own protection/security. It isn't, and has never been the job of law enforcement to protect others, or provide personal security to the citizenry. Hence the name: "law enforcement".

      Does that many that everyone carrying a firearm will be able to protect themselves successfully in every encounter? No. If that were true, there would never be an instance of death among law enforcement, except when the death is self-inflicted intended by said law enforcement( i.e. suicide). One needs to prepare as best as possible, and hope for the best. Regardless, I will take my chances and carry a firearm(I carry more than one every day, everywhere I go), than not carry and hope that someone else around me has a firearm and will protect me.

    148. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's not equating more guns with less crime. He's stating that even with more guns on the streets, the crime has gone down.

    149. Re: RF? by thoromyr · · Score: 1

      flamebait, really? Someone must be uncomfortable with the number of deaths each year due to unsafely housed firearms...

    150. Re: RF? by thoromyr · · Score: 1

      It is extremely arrogant for you to put thoughts in the minds of people who are being killed to suit your political agenda. That is low, base rhetoric.

      Do you believe "the other side" uses incidents for base rhetoric? Rise above them, don't stoop to their level.

    151. Re:RF? by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      And you should also not pretend that we dont regularly restrict or limit the rights in the constitution over various greater public interests.

      Yes, over the 20th century, the federal government has increasingly imposed legislation that places the so-called "public interest" ahead of constitutional liberties. Because we have made these mistakes in the past doesn't mean we need to continue making them; a lot of those laws should be reversed.

      Freedom of speech has its limits: cant yell fire in the movie theater. So does religion: you dont get to impose your religion on others even if its what your religious expression or observance calls for Assembly: cant block public streets, or you must get a permit to do so

      While there are examples of the federal government putting the "public interest" ahead of constitutionally guaranteed rights, none of those are.

      Reality is the 2nd amendment is about the ability of the militia to exist and be capable of fulfilling its mission of assisting in national defense.

      Even if that interpretation of the Second Amendment were true, it wouldn't matter. It's not the Second Amendment that grants Americans the right to own and bear arms; rather, it is the lack of a delegated power in the Constitution that establishes that right. The Bill of Rights is merely a clarification of some powers, in particular, that the federal government lacks. Hence "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

      So dont pretend that the 2nd Amendment is any different, or any more sacred and inviolate than the others. There are times and places to limit it. By imposing background checks, on ALL sales. By requiring training to prove your anret incompetent and a threat to others.

      And what "public interest" would such ineffective policies serve?

      By requiring proper storage, so that unauthorized persons, such as children, get access.

      And how do you imagine that is going to work? Do you seriously think that any penalty the state can impose on parents for improper gun storage is worse than losing a child? The problem with the policies you want is that, even if we adopted the principle that the "greater public interest" justifies intrusions into individual liberties, those policies simply don't make much sense.

    152. Re:RF? by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      AmiMoJo made an argument against Quigley, and you expanded his argument. Your observation is factually correct (so would have been the observation "the sky is blue"), but it fails to support AmiMoJo's argument against Quigley and is hence irrelevant to the point we are discussing. Hope I cleared that up.

    153. Re:RF? by Montezumaa · · Score: 1

      What you said would be funny, if you weren't apparently so serious, about calling out someone's alleged "ignorance", when you are exuding it in such great quantities. I believe we have nice instance of irony here. Just because government(US, State, and/or local) has been violating our(US Citizens) US Constitutionally-protected rights for "long periods"(over years, decades, and in some cases, centuries; in fact, Abraham Lincoln was one of the biggest violators in history) doesn't magically make it legal or right. Of course, from your comments, I don't expect you to grasp this.

      If a "right" can be restricted, controlled, or taken away, then it isn't a "right"; it's a "privilege". I should also state that "requiring" a "permit" to assemble in a group is also a violation of our(again, US Citizens, and those within the jurisdiction of the United States) First Amendment protections, among other violations you mention as, apparently, "proper use of government authority(and I say authority, because no government has "rights").

      I also must point out that, given the heavy restrictions on firearms in the United States, among all of the states, that "the militia"(which is still all "able-bodied males, and even females, from 14 to 45, and older; because it was, for a long time, 14, not 18 years old. Also, "the militia" isn't the National Guard; it never has been, and it never will be) cannot execute its job effectively. Select-fire firearms("machine guns, "full-autos", etc) are effectively banned, or artificially priced too high due to the Hughes Amendment to the Firearm Owner's "Protection" Act of 1986, and then there is the NFA'34/GCA'68, Title II(National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968, Title II(specifically), which also create artificial and wholly unnecessary roadblocks to arms ownership and, at the same time, violations of the protections of the Second Amendment to the United State Constitution.

    154. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Somalia is a strawman constantly trotted-out by the clueless, for reasons that don't matter to those who trot-out straw men.

    155. Re: RF? by mishehu · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you should be asking the question of "why". And I don't mean the one that leads you to the overly simple answer of "guns are easy to get". We have higher ownership than in the 1990's and half of the overall homicide rate in the USA that we did in the 1990's...

    156. Re: RF? by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      What is your point?

      The majority of those US deaths are suicide. But even if you want to count them you are purposely ignoring the fact that gun deaths still occur even when there are laws making guns hard to get. But you are also ignoring the entire points made in order to spout something. Having a gun that would kill you if you needed to use it is a extremely stupid idea and can be the cause of your death either by attempted action or inaction. It would resign you to death with absolutely no chance of changing that unless someone with a gun shows up first

      The point is that the number of people killed by terrorism is so ridiculously low compared to gun related deaths that to use self protection from terrorists as a justification for unregulated gun ownership is therefore beyond ridiculous.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    157. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't like what you're saying, so you should shut up.

      What's that? You want to claim that the First Amendment protects your right to say those things?

      I'm sorry but in this instance it does not. See, thanks to your insistence that we ignore what the Second Amendment says because "no one's losing freedoms in this case except the freedom to hurt others", I now have a backdoor into violating your First Amendment rights.

      We're all able to agree that backdoors on encryption harm everyone. Why can't we agree that backdoors on laws also harm everyone?

    158. Re: RF? by pnutjam · · Score: 0

      Unless you tucked it in the glove box, dropped it on the nightstand, or set it by your PC while your working. You'd never walk away from it accidentally or leave it in the car with some kids while you grab something you forgot.
      You also won't get tired of carrying it after afew years and leave it in a box in your storage unit.
      Never happened, never will
      ---I've seen all these examples.

    159. Re: RF? by pnutjam · · Score: 2

      Yeah, why not just blast blindly into the dark, it worked for Pistorius.

    160. Re: RF? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Who is arguing for unregulated gun ownership? Do you normally invent strawmen just to shoot down? Does that somehow allow you to justify your beliefs?

      The only thing i argued is how stupid it is to have a weapon that kills unauthorized users and that people being assassinated likely wished they had a means to stop it.

    161. Re: RF? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Have you ever considered that you might be a bigot?

      When you lump an entire group of people up, then take behaviors of a small number of them to be behaviors of the whole group, you are the one who is delusional, not them.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    162. Re: RF? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Gun safes aren't so safe either, http://www.thesidebar.org/inse...

      You really need a lock that passes through the firing chamber if you want to store your gun safely.

    163. Re: RF? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Why?

      For the most part - just knowing someone will shoot back is enough to deter shootings. If only 10% of the law abiding population of legal age carried a concealed weapon at their leisure not only would most gun crimes likely not happen but a good majority of them would be stopped before they became mass shootings.

      How many mass shootings have taken place inside a police department? What is so magical about the police other than they have guns?

    164. Re: RF? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Listen idiot. I have been in a situation or two where i was almost killed. I have seen others die in front of me. I do have some insight to this but i did preface the comment with they might and that i can only guess. I did not put thoughts into anyone 's mind and stated what i thought they "might " be thinking.

      Do you think they welcomed being killed or something?

    165. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, every responsible gun owner has a drawer full of gun locks they never took out of the package. Every gun comes with one but nobody uses them. If you need to keep your gun ready to go you don't want a lock on it. If you don't need it to be ready, it's locked up in a safe. For those who need quick access but need a way to keep from children, there are many good options of quick access pistol safes that can be opened easy by an adult but not a child.

    166. Re:RF? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Integrated trigger locks would be a neat addition. Like a keyhole in the area behind the trigger that physically blocks the trigger from moving from inside the gun.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    167. Re:RF? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      But their aims and methods are far from secret. They're feeding and controlling the military-industrial complex.

      In broad terms, yes, everyone knows this. The extent of their illegal activities remain generally unknown, by obvious design.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    168. Re: RF? by AC-x · · Score: 1

      None of those safety features will stop someone else from putting *their* finger on the trigger of your gun though. I mean, sure, you could keep your gun locked in a safe separate from your ammo, but then the gun isn't exactly readily accessible for you either.

    169. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      China may be getting more capitalistic but, it isn't getting more democratic. Let's not confuse economic systems with political systems.

    170. Re: RF? by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      Who is arguing for unregulated gun ownership? Do you normally invent strawmen just to shoot down? Does that somehow allow you to justify your beliefs?

      The only thing i argued is how stupid it is to have a weapon that kills unauthorized users and that people being assassinated likely wished they had a means to stop it.

      Your post had nothing to do with "how stupid it is to have a weapon that kills unauthorized users". Do I need to copy and paste what you wrote or can you go back and remind yourself?

      I addressed the one point that you did make but that's obviously not sinking through so just forget it. Or reread what I wrote and try and understand it but I'm not going to bother writing it again.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    171. Re: RF? by AC-x · · Score: 2

      "I've not once backed up my data and have never had a problem"

    172. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It says 'emerge', not 'exist', though, so you're not even arguing the same thing.

      You'd have to argue that democracy will not emerge in Somalia, for example.

    173. Re: RF? by AC-x · · Score: 2

      But if there is a home invasion do you want to present them with a nice open cabinet full of loaded firearms?

    174. Re: RF? by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      That really depends on the style of lock. I guarantee you that no one is going to be able to fire any of my firearms while they have the cable lock looped through the chamber. That said, I'm sure some bolt cutters (or possibly even a screwdriver and a pair of pliers) could remove the cable locks pretty easily sans key.

    175. Re:RF? by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      5) Gas stations now have thick bullet proof glass surrounding their cash registers... only in America haha

      That's most definitely not an only in america thing. Also, I've yet to see a gas station here with thick bulletproof glass surrounding its cash registers.

    176. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gun control advocates aren't willing to compromise either. If they were interested in creating the safe ownership of firearms, then a "properly checked" gun owning population would not be any more dangerous with currently controlled items than with the currently allowed items, and all their proposals for "proper checking and education" would make a uniform state of ownership responsibility. So, any gun control advocates who really just want to better vet who has firearms should be more than willing to offer up repeal of the NFA and implementation of universal CC reciprocity in exchange for universal background checks and education.

    177. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But Obama was a member of weather underground. And his mentors were known members of weather underground.

      So what now? What anti-obama sentiment ...

    178. Re: RF? by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      There is a middle ground. Mine is well out of sight and out of reach of my 2 year old but where I can get it if needed.

    179. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah?
      Go and talk in German media about the Großgermanisches Reich Deutscher Nation good monetary politics, or about that states good running. And look whats going to happen to you. You dont even need to be a NSDAP sympatizer. You dont even need to be a revisonist to get a "special" treatment.

    180. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe there should be, I don't know, something like an armed representative of the law present at school campuses. Maybe more than one.

      Seems dubious that our government will require us to have over our children to them for education, 8 hours a day, and then declare with signs and law enforcement that they will, in no uncertain terms, remove and prevent any and all protection of your children from harm perpetrated by firearm wielding assailants.

      Feels more like a hostage situation combined with a self fulfilling outcome. We take your kids, advertise to everyone that we aren't protecting them, then wait for some wacko to come kill them. Perfect scenario to generate support for gun control. Makes it appear as if our dead children are merely fodder for news organizations and presidential speeches designed to remove our second amendment rights.

      I think if we are going to have "gun free zones" where our children are kept, we should have "gun free zones" where our politicians are kept.

    181. Re:RF? by Woldscum · · Score: 1

      WRONG. Nice try, though. That's not what it meant. It meant "to control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc.:", in this case, that standing armies are injurious to freedom. It meant "to adjust to some standard or requirement, as amount, degree, etc.:" and "to adjust so as to ensure accuracy of operation:", and "to put in good order", as in, to do the will of the people. It had nothing to do with training. It had to do with the direction in which it was pointed. If you read the writings of the people who wrote and supported the thing, it is clear that this was the purpose, and not for providing for the national defense.

      BULLSHIT.
      "that standing armies are injurious to freedom". 100% correct. Which is why the MILITIA MUST BE ARMED. Who would make up the army then? Do you know anything about the history of the US? Read about the Civil War. They had actual militia Artillery units with cannons all privately owned. Just like a volunteer fire department today. They drilled every month. No government approval needed. How do you think both sides raised armies? Read up on Teddy Roosevelt and the rough riders. How did the roughriders happen? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    182. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fingerprints and RFID data would be stored digitally, and then a processor determines your rights to fire the weapon and manages the internal safety accordingly. It is DRM.

    183. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A fucking men. Preach it.

    184. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who needs to pick one? Squeeze it with a pair of pliers and completely bypass the lock. The plastic-coated ones are better, but they just take pliers and scissors.

    185. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't want my behavior conditioned by you on other people's sad stories.

      This could be the motto of my entire life, from gun control, to treatment of refugees, to my ability to eat peanuts on a plane, all the way down to people telling me some mythical dog bit some equally-fictional kid, so my well-behaved dog can't join me at a public street fair.

      -LaurenC

    186. Re: RF? by Calhune · · Score: 2

      According to the CDC, in 2013 there were a total of 505 accidental deaths due to firearms. A total of 69 deaths for ages 0-14. Are you arging that there are less than 505 defensive uses of firearms in the US per year that saved a life? And you are also arguing that gun locks will stop gun owners from committing suicide?

    187. Re: RF? by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      Depending on time to the ER, knife wounds can be just as deadly as gunshot wounds.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    188. Re:RF? by Calhune · · Score: 1
      You do realize that the murder rate in the USA is now at almost an all time low from the last 115 years? Except for 3 years in the 50's where it was fractionally better, the US has fewer murders per 100,000 than any time prior to this.

      The idea that America has "war zones" is purely propaganda.

    189. Re: RF? by david_thornley · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Many suicides are impulse actions, and the person often regrets the action very quickly and never tries again. Given that, having a handy reliable way to kill oneself is going to increase the number of actual suicides. Razor blades at least normally don't kill that fast, giving time for changing one's mind or intervention from others.

      Now, if a person is determined, having a gun is good because it's fast and, if done right, relatively painless.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    190. Re: RF? by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      Christians are never jihadist. If you're trying to be sensational, the term is "crusader".

      There are still countries where the death penalty is in force for homosexuality:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      But none of them are Christian nations. In fact, all are Muslim*. Why so much concern over Christians? You don't need to make up a nonsensical term like "Christian Jihadist" when actual real jihadists exist, have states, and some will kill you if you set foot there.

      *Countries with the death penalty for homosexuality:
      -Sudan = 97% Muslim, has law based on Islamic tenets
      -Mauritania = 100% Sunni Muslim
      -Nigeria = Split between Muslim northern states and Christian southern states. Homosexuality is punishable by death in the Muslim states only
      -Iran = 99.4% Muslim
      -Quatar = 80% Muslim
      -Afghanistan = 99% Muslim

    191. Re:RF? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You're missing the point. Gun ownership is up and gun crime is down (which is part of the general decrease in violent crime). It wasn't an assertion that more guns means less crime, but rather a claim that the current system is showing less gun crime in any case.

      I also believe that people who have guns with the intention of potentially overthrowing the government are idiots. Partly because the Army will tear through any number of armed civilians, partly because you can't get modern infantry rifles anymore, let alone anti-tank weapons, partly because if you've got that many people opposing the government you just vote it out next election.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    192. Re: RF? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Gun safes aren't so safe either,

      Oh darn it, forgot about that little definition problem - I don't consider those safes. They're 'residential security containers'. This is an actual gun safe.

      You really need a lock that passes through the firing chamber if you want to store your gun safely.

      No you don't. You do realize that the same 'simple tools' used to open the RSCs in that article can also be used to remove cable locks and such, right?

      Indeed, it's one of the problems with most actual 'gun locks' that attach to the firearm - because they're smaller, they're easier to defeat. A bit harder if you don't want to scuff up the gun, but if you're using that somebody can pick the lock of an RSC, or use 'simple tools' to force one open, as a reason you need an actual gun lock, then you're committing a fallacy because equally simple tools can be used to remove the gun lock. For example, most that pass through the chamber are really only using a simple cable of smallish gauge, and those aren't that hard to cut through.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    193. Re:RF? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      From my personal studies, I'd say that used to be true. I don't think it applies anymore, since armed civilians are no longer a potential threat to a military.

      I've heard that one reason that France didn't impose a longbow culture like the British had was that it would disrupt their social order too much.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    194. Re: RF? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Yeah, people who think that 'gun locks' are safer than even 'residential security containers'* haven't really examined what it would take to get one off.

      Other tool options include pry bars, dremels, etc...

      Short of a safe, gun locks are more for protecting children than preventing thieves.

      *IE those small gun 'safes' that I don't consider to actually be a safe.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    195. Re: RF? by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      > Just like we don't let you have the freedom to drive in the opposing lane of traffic.

      It's already against the law to drive against the flow of traffic, and it's against the law to murder people (with a gun or otherwise). Grabbing the guns makes less sense than removing all traffic going "the other" way by law.

      The bad uses of guns are already restricted. That's good enough.

    196. Re: RF? by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      So the speech is legal, as long as you say what is permitted and do not participate in the illegal speech. Good fucking grief.

    197. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, this will simply waste tax payer dollars and add complexity to a safety device adding to the likelyhood it will fail to perform when needed.

      So instead let's just not have safety devices because they might fail.

      Yes. You're catching on. Keep your guns away from kids and others. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot (1 of the 4 rules) . Simple tool. Simple safety.

    198. Re:RF? by tsotha · · Score: 1

      No it won't. Americans are more pro-gun than they've ever been. Anyway it's a bad analogy - we're on the side of more freedom, whereas the prohibitionists were on the side of less.

      And it's not like gun control people are actually compromising on anything. Gun grabbers just view any new gun control as the first step on the road to an eventual ban of all guns. Realizing that, we're going to stop you here and not after you've been allowed to whittle away our civil rights.

    199. Re: RF? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Try reading up in the thread and you will see the context.

      And you are right. Your point is lost on me because i was arguing something more specific than you apparently saw. Might have something to do with the moderation system and your settings. But I was speaking of a specific situation.

    200. Re: RF? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      There's a very large difference between wanting a gun yourself and wanting a police officer with a gun to show up, or between carrying a gun all the time in case you're in a mass shooting and carrying a cell phone all the time in case you want to call the police. Now, if someone were to teleport guns to the potential victims, some of them might be able to use them, and that might possibly help. (I have no faith in untrained and unpracticed people with guns.) Of course, the person with a gun is now target number one, and isn't likely to survive.

      You're also projecting your attitudes on dead people, which I consider disrespectful.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    201. Re:RF? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Your murder rate is still ridiculously high, even if this is an all time low...

    202. Re:RF? by Calhune · · Score: 1

      I guess it's a matter of perspective. The average person would live to be something like 26,315 years old before being murdered in America - and if you aren't a drug dealer or gang member it's probably closer to 70,000 years. In fact, the murder rate for a law abiding American is probably equivalent to the murder rate for a law abiding Englishman.

    203. Re: RF? by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately it's more likely for a gun to shoot someone in an accident or a kid getting a hold of it than for it to be fired "when needed". A good number of the times it's "needed" is for suicide too.

      A vast majority of the time when a gun is "needed", it does not have to be and is not fired. Just its presence is sufficient to stop an attacker. This complicates any official tally even if one was attempted since any individual reporting it would face procecution; they have nothing to gain by reporting it to law enforcement.

      Your statistic is further complicated because any self defensive use of a firearm which does result in the attacker getting shot is just another homicide whether justified or not.

    204. Re:RF? by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Is this the same England that conceals their rising violent crime rate by manipulating how it is reported? In the US if someone robs multiple apartments in one building, it is multiple robberies; in England it is just one.

    205. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah?
      Obama is weather underground schooled terrorist. And that person should be a leding voice in gun talk?

    206. Re: RF? by labnet · · Score: 1

      What crazy logic you are using.
      Guns are dangerous. They make suicide easier, accidental shootings easier, anger shootings easier, and who says your little handgun is any match for a body armor wearing human with an assault rifle: It takes a lot more effort to use fists, knives, or clubs to kill someone vs a gun.
      The trouble is, you have SO MANY GUNS, it would take 50 -100 years to reduce your gun levels back to sane amounts, in which time criminals would have the advantage.
      I'm afraid your gun lobby has made you a servant to the gun for your lifetime.

      --
      46137
    207. Re: RF? by Ksevio · · Score: 1
      If that's the case then it doesn't even matter if the gun works properly!

      . So we have the cases:
      1. Majority of time: Gun not used, safety device prevents accidental shootings
      2. "Vast majority of time gun is needed": Gun used, but presence is all that is needed, safety device irrelevant
      3. Minority of minority of time: Gun fired, safety device must work as intended

      Seems like a no brainer since it's only the minority of time the is used, the minority of the cases the gun needs to be fired, and the minority of times the mechanism malfunctions (stats are unknown on this one - could be similar to current cases for all we know).

    208. Re: RF? by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      Evidently it's not good enough since we have the highest murder rate from guns of all advanced countries.

    209. Re: RF? by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      Are you arging that there are less than 505 defensive uses of firearms in the US per year that saved a life?

      That sounds about right - defensive uses of firearms are pretty uncommon. We'd know more if the NRA didn't block studies like this. Also have to factor in stolen guns used against their owners (or others).

      A gun lock would prevent people using a family member's gun for suicide (those numbers are separate from accidents).

    210. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lotta qualifiers ("murder rate FROM GUNS" and "advanced countries") to get to your predetermined point. Skip out on all those nasty demographics things, how murder is reported, and are you less dead if you get stabbed to death than shot? Plenty of nations have way higher murder rates than the US, but twist dem stats!

    211. Re:RF? by Zaiff+Urgulbunger · · Score: 1

      Give me the frequencies. I'll have jammers made in China within a month.

      I suspect this is *part* of layered approach to preventing the vast number of unnecessary deaths that occur in the US every year. So this bit *might* be useful in preventing children using improperly secured weapons and inadvertently killing themselves/friends/family.

      Whether it's practical or not, I suppose is what the study will establish.

      But it's like adding safety features to anything - it likely increases the cost a bit and may result in more product failures... but on the other hand, everyone *may* be safer as a result, and less innocent people die.

    212. Re: RF? by Agripa · · Score: 1

      If that is the case, then why have the loaded firearm or even a firearm at all? An Airsoft should be just as effective, right? Fire extinguishers are unlikely to ever be used to stop a fire so inspections are unneeded. How many people are likely to ever be in a traffic collision where seat belts or air bags make a difference?

      The problem with this is that the deterrence of firearms is predicated on their reliability. Individuals using a firearm for self defense may hope that mere threat (*) or brandishing is sufficient to deter an attacker but the safest course of action is always going to be to plan on shooting the attacker immediately and without warning. The training which goes along with that is that you do not draw or reveal that you have a firearm until the situation already justifies the use of deadly force. Doing so with a known to be unreliable firearm, and all smart gun implementations so far have been unreliable, will significantly change that calculation making the firearm useless for self defense which is part of the plan for some who advocate these technologies while excusing law enforcement from using them. Would law enforcement put up with using a firearm which was known to be less reliable based on most law enforcement officers never actually having to shoot someone?

      (*) As the Kansas supreme court case from a couple of years ago shows, threatening to use a firearm without using it can entail significant legal risks. In Kansas until recently when their legislature changed the law, threatening lethal force was unlawful in a self defense situation while actually using lethal force was not and there are other US jurisdictions with the same problem whether it is caused by statutory law or overzealous prosecutors.

    213. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I addressed your points one at a time.

      Gun ownership is up and gun crime is down has to be the most single dimensional means of thinking I've ever heard of. As if there's a single variable involved... add more guns and less will be used.
      It's called correlation, it does not equal causation, but shows a possible link.

      1) It's likely the methods we used for measuring gun crimes has changed. ... minor impact to shift
      Maybe.

      2) Law enforcement has in fact gotten much better
      Better in what way?

      3) The US has placed a measurable percentage of their population into prisons during this time.
      Any recent (last 30 years or so) increases in our prison population is largely due to drug offenses.

      4) The criminals are more afraid of getting caught because of mass surveillance, better forensics, etc...
      While this may deter some, many criminals aren't bright enough to consider theses things.

      5) Gas stations now have thick bullet proof glass surrounding their cash registers... only in America haha
      I've lived in the USA all my life in several states, and never seen this bullet proof glass.

      6) Cash is becoming less common. There is also less than $50 in a cash drawer anymore. The risk vs. the gain doesn't add up
      I agree.

      7) The guy in the nice suit one the street has change for a parking meter in his pocket. The teenager with the Nike Airs has a credit card. There's no money to be had anymore from a hold up.
      Modern parking meters accept debit/credit cards. No need for cash here.

      8) Banks have buttons under every counter to call the cops in an emergency.
      You've worked at a bank, or seen this in movies?

      9) It's easier to simply steal money in large sums through other forms of fraud... why use a gun?
      This requires some knowledge that many criminals simply don't have.
      At this point 3/9 of your points can be summed up as less cash = less gun crime, 4/9 as criminals can't win, 1/9 as so many have been caught, and 1/9 we maybe changed definitions. Yes, I simplified a bit.

      I can go on for a long time... but your argument about more guns = less gun crime is pure stupid.
      The idea here is if more people are carrying guns, and the criminals don't know who, they are less likely to commit crimes against another person.
      Why is this not reasonable?

      I honestly have no problem with people owning guns for hunting and sport shooting.
      Neither do I.

      I do have issues with idiots who think guns are the answer for protection
      What is the answer then? When criminals use guns, what is the defense?

      and also think it's really idiotic when people think that if they have enough weapons at home, they can overthrow a tyranny run by a guy with luxury bunkers, armored tanks, drones, etc... it would be like a hoard of flies trying to knock over an elephant.
      Yet we have insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan that our military is regularly attacked by.
      Also, if you read some documents by our founding fathers, you might notice they seemed to think that was pretty important.
      Would it be easy? Not at all.
      Would it be possible? Yes.

    214. Re:RF? by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Give me the frequencies. I'll have jammers made in China within a month.

      What do you need the frequencies for? Just cut an electric cord and scrape the ends against each other rapidly while plugged in. White noise across the entire spectrum.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    215. Re:RF? by strikethree · · Score: 1

      He seems to be clueless. Guns are ubiquitous in Somalia, which has no functional government at all, much less a democratic one. While England seems to get by just fine with handguns banned.

      Guns are ubiquitous to WHO in Somalia? The general population? I think not.

      While England seems to be descending into an Orwellian hell with handguns banned. Go Go Gadget GCHQ!

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    216. Re:RF? by dave420 · · Score: 1

      You type pretty well with one hand...

    217. Re: RF? by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Why? Because you are giving up your life anyway - by having to be "on duty" all the time. Always looking over your shoulder. Never having a drink. Having to coordinate shifts with your SO (otherwise you'll be unprotected while you sleep, negating your vigilance at all other times), and so on. What is so magical about the police? They are connected to thousands of other police officers, all with training. Some out of shape accountant with a concealed weapon, little to no training, and fuck all support, is clearly not the same thing. Not to mention that having armed people all over the place will just raise the likelihood of accidental "he looked a bit brown and scary" shootings, requiring more people to have guns to protect themselves from those people, and so on. The solution you paint requires everyone to be vigilant and ready 100% of the time, meaning everyone has ceased living their lives, and are cowering in fear.

      You are scared. It's OK, just don't let your fear poison the well for everyone else.

    218. Re:RF? by dave420 · · Score: 1

      So give everyone in the US mandatory weapons training before they can get a gun, and require periodic testing to demonstrate proficiency. Problem solved.

    219. Re:RF? by dave420 · · Score: 1

      So much guesswork, so few figures. You're going to have to do better than that...

    220. Re:RF? by dave420 · · Score: 1

      But gun control does lead to fewer shootings, which is something that has been demonstrated time and time and time again. "Stop subsidizing single motherhood"? So you want more poor people desperate to survive, thinking that's going to decrease crime? You really haven't thought this through at all, have you?

    221. Re: RF? by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      No it isn't.

      The per country data shows a clear (although not perfect) correlation between the death rate from guns and number of people who own guns. The only reason people say you can't draw generalisations is because the data unequivocally support the case for restricting access to guns and they don't like that.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    222. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can stop at "let's just not have safety devices" and leave it at that.

      All you morons who are for "gun control" just don't fucking get it, do you?

      Gun Control Laws will "ONLY" affect law-abiding citizens.

      Criminals and mentally unstable people will buy or build weapons that don't "comply" with the law.

      So no you're in your house in the middle of the night, a break-in occurs and the asshat who's broken in is holding a gun with NO safety controls and you're spending precious time trying to get your panic'd grip on your "safe" gun correct to defend your children.

      Guess what happens.

      You FAIL.

      Now, to what the Government really is trying to do, which isn't to make its' citizens safer.
      The government is trying to place "smart" or "safe" guns into our hands so that when they send in their storm troopers ala SS into our homes to ensure that "we are compliant" with their fascist rules and controls, that we won't have an effective means to resist their home-grown terrorism.

      That's what they are shooting for (pardon the pun), and that is what we cannot allow them to do.

    223. Re: RF? by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      If that is the case, then why have the loaded firearm or even a firearm at all?

      Good point!

      Fire extinguishers are unlikely to ever be used to stop a fire so inspections are unneeded. How many people are likely to ever be in a traffic collision where seat belts or air bags make a difference?

      I haven't checked the numbers, but I'm pretty sure injuries from fire extinguishers and air bags are pretty low, and higher when they aren't in use. They also are recalled when they kill people, so if you think that's a good analogy, I guess we better get some recalls going.

      Do you have evidence that smart guns are unreliable? What percentage of the time to normal guns fail? What percentage do smart guns fail?

      How many times are guns used to kill people by those that aren't owners?

      We absolutely should be giving these to law enforcement since police guns do occasionally get stolen and are used in crimes.

    224. Re: RF? by Yunzil · · Score: 1

      As opposed to having it work perfectly when you don't want it to?

    225. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Smith and Wesson, Ruger, Taurus, and probably others have done this on some models for years. You can read reports of S&W revolvers breaking their locks at the range and not being able to fire. Sometimes they have to go to a local gunsmith because they can't even be unloaded. Unsurprisingly, many people remove it from their self defense guns.

    226. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the bill does do something about the elephant in the room no one talks about. In EVERY case of mass shootings the person doing the shooting was on some kind of pycho-active drug. We don't need stronger gun control but more control on the LEGAL drug market. Guns don't kill people but drugs will sway the mind into doing stupid things like killing a room full of people.

    227. Re:RF? by Calhune · · Score: 1

      Guesswork? Fine. According to FBI stats the murder rate of 3.8 per 100,000. Simple math shows this is 26,315 years on average before being killed. Different studies show 70%-90% of murder victims have an arrest record, so that means the murder rate for law abiding citizens ranges from 1.14 to 0.38 per 100,000 for law abiding citizens, which means a range of 87,719 years to 263,158 years on average before being murdered. Since the murder rate in England is about 1.8 per 100,000, it's very possible that the rates are comparable to England's. No studies I know of for England saying how many murder victims are already felons, but considering they have a much lower gang problem than the inner cities of America I presume it's lower. So yeah.. that part is guesswork. Feel free to start a study.

    228. Re: RF? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      The real point of this type of lock is that the gun is not stored ready to shoot. Bad locks and ready to shoot guns don't go together.

    229. Re:RF? by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      I picture the chiefs of the DoD getting his memo, rolling their eyes, and dumping it in the trash where it belongs.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    230. Re: RF? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Omg.. are you serious? Do you really think someone with a concealed carry permit has to have the weapon 24/7. Ffs, get real. At least actually read what was said before projecting your irrational fears. Do you need "at their leisure " definedor something?

      And no. There will not be accidental he looked brown shootings. No state with CC laws allow that in the first place. Why don't you actually look into the shit before respouting stupid nonsense that you likely weren't even original enough to imagine yourself.

    231. Re: RF? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      If they get through my safe lock, I don't think any locks on the individual guns are going to slow them down.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    232. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing is absolutely an option. Doing "Something" for the sake of appearing to almost always has bad repercussions.

      This subject has been explored. It will never work. I will even use that word, NEVER. EVER.

      If you think it can be made to work, you don't know enough about guns to have an opinion.

      Like President Teardrops, who really isn't sure what full auto is. Or, for that matter, what mileage a car gets when he started his Fuck the Environment, The Poor And The Industry, Let's Crush Cars program.

    233. Re:RF? by XXongo · · Score: 1

      He didn't say that weapons availability is "necessary and sufficient" for democracy to emerge. In fact, he didn't even postulate a causal relationship. What he is really saying is that if a society meets the pre-conditions necessary for democracy, then it will also trust its citizens with guns.

      Yes, I know that's what he's saying. He is wrong. The data doesn't show any correlation whatsoever between democracy and availability of guns. None.

      Availability of weapons is an indicator of the state of society and politics, with free and democratic societies having more availability than non-free societies.

      That is an assertion. There's no real support for it in the evidence, unless you go with the circular argument.

      You go on to then assert that Somalia is a special case. OK. I'll accept that: Quigley's statement is correct except for those places in the world where it is not correct.

    234. Re: RF? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Are you making an argument that tech doesn't work anywhere or is it only in the magical realm of guns that tech doesn't work "because it can be circumvented"?

      He's saying DRM doesn't work, even when you apply it to guns, because of the same principles that apply in every other situation. Don't be disingenuous, it's boring and does nothing to move the debate forwards.

      Digital rights Management? Hell no, that won't work in guns. Them pointy things that come out the business end don't pay heed to no digitals.

      But in a related incident, many years ago, I went out plinking with a friend on his farm. My rifle was at home, so I borrowed a .22 of his. Semi auto. I was walking with it in th ecrook of my arm, and it went off. Holy shit! I checked it, thinking I had the safety off and wanting to kick myself in the ass. So I double checked the safety. Than I turned toward him, and the goddamned thing went off again. I came very close to getting my first human killshot.

      I quickly unloaded the thing, and was done for the day.

      But in the world of "It might fail, so don't ever do it, I hope no one is arguing for removing safeties .

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    235. Re: RF? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      But if there is a home invasion do you want to present them with a nice open cabinet full of loaded firearms?

      That's why I always carry an Anti-Tank rifle with me. You never know when Kim Jong Un is going to come down the street in a Pokpung-ho.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    236. Re:RF? by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      But gun control does lead to fewer shootings, which is something that has been demonstrated time and time and time again.

      Nope, sorry, there is no evidence that gun control causes fewer shootings. Gun control may case a modest reduction in "gun deaths", but that's due to suicides, not shootings.

      "Stop subsidizing single motherhood"? So you want more poor people desperate to survive, thinking that's going to decrease crime?

      If you subsidize solar panels, more people get solar panels. If you subsidize public transportation, more people use public transportation. And if you subsidize single motherhood, you get more single motherhood. So, what I want is less single motherhood and more intact families. You evidently want more broken families and the cycle of poverty and violence that follows.

    237. Re:RF? by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Yes, I know that's what he's saying. He is wrong. The data doesn't show any correlation whatsoever between democracy and availability of guns. None.

      No, you don't know what he is saying. He isn't saying that there is a "correlation between democracy and availability of guns", and neither was I saying that.

      That is an assertion. There's no real support for it in the evidence, unless you go with the circular argument.

      The data is on the web, you're welcome to check it for yourself.

      You go on to then assert that Somalia is a special case.

      No, I assert that his (and your) understanding of what Somalia is and how it is governed is fundamentally wrong.

    238. Re:RF? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Many States already do that. For example, in California, you have to pass a written test every 5 years to buy a firearm.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    239. Re: RF? by vel-ex-tech · · Score: 1

      I didn't have use for such a term as crusader or jihadist to describe people in my own community up until December last year. The only person who had come close to being violent with me was the owner of a Diary Queen over in South Haven, MI. Even then, that situation did not require a gun on my part, even though he thought it required men in uniform with guns.

      Fortunately, the men in uniform with guns weren't nutters. That was also about 6 years ago before gays were "enslaving" straights into making them cakes or somesuch. I mean, personally, if you make ice cream for a living, but you don't want my money, just tell me and I'll leave! Sheesh! No need to make a scene.

      That was before yelling MERRY CHRISTMAS at somebody one suspects of being gay became a thing last year.

      I don't know exactly what's going on these days. That's why I thinking that perhaps I do need a gun. There are people right here in flyover country who do think being gay should have a death penalty. They're frustrated that they can't implement their goals in law, and that frustration grows every time there's an article about Caitlyn Jenner in the news or every time there's some advance to allow gay marriage.

      They also have guns. I don't want to start a fight. I just want to be able to survive should one of them become violent with me due to a belief that it's what god wants. You can't talk sense into somebody who's become convinced that god wants them to kill or maim you. A revolver is more eloquent in those situations than I could ever hope to be.

      I want things to go back to the way they were 10 years ago, when it didn't matter if I was gay or straight or whatever.

    240. Re:RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He didn't say guns require democracy, he said democracy requires guns.

    241. Re:RF? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      A smart gun is intended to prevent accidents and incidents where stolen guns are used immediately. Like a trigger lock. A smart gun IS an inferior solution, but it allows people to engage in the fantasy that they need a ready to fire gun to hand for self defence.

    242. Re: RF? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I still don't buy the suicide angle - if someone is serious about ending their life, they're going to find a way.

      Most people aren't. The vast majority of suicides are linked to heavy state of depression which puts people on the edge while they try and fight it. Survivors of suicides nearly always state they immediately regret what they were trying to do. This hits most severely jumpers who survive as they have a moment to think about what ultimate action they just took. It's a different reaction from people who cut themselves or shoot themselves as the pain itself is a snap back to reality.

    243. Re: RF? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      It's not the government's job to protect you from your own bad decisionmaking by taking away everyone else's freedoms.

      Suicide is rarely about bad decisionmaking. The fact that you thinks show speaks wonders for how your government and your society is dealing with the problem of clinical depression.

    244. Re: RF? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      They might be the victims of previous mass shootings.

      Yep I love this train of thought. If everyone had a gun everyone would be safe. Spoken by someone who has a gun and lives in the nation with the highest number of guns per capita, and also the highest gun death, and highest number of mass shootings in the western world.

      Yay America!

      The people sitting in a cafe in Paris are statistically very unlikely to die in a gun related death, the same can not be said for Americans.

    245. Re:RF? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Wait what? You don't have slaves anymore? How! They weren't allowed to own guns!

      How did a functioning democracy work in the favour of a group of people without guns! This is unheard of!

      ! Exclamation mark for EXTRA EXCLAMATION!

    246. Re: RF? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Depends what the gun is for. Hunting or sport? Yes, it can be kept locked up. But what about guns for self-defence? When someone has just broken into your house, a gun is useless if you need to spend two minutes fiddling with a key or combination lock in the dark and trying to load it - the gun needs to be ready to grab in seconds, ideally stored loaded in a draw beside the bed. There's a fundamental contradiction between the need for restricted access for gun safety and the need the instant access for defence.

    247. Re: RF? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Your gun will still work as a club.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    248. Re: RF? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      It worked really well for his girlfriend. She felt so safe.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    249. Re: RF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm definitely not an anti-gun nut (I even own my very own shotgun), but I am very much opposed to universal carry rights. Of course there are scenarios in which you'd like everyone to have a gun, not just the bad guys. However, having a society permeated with guns leads to more deaths overall, because everyone has access to a gun whenever they feel like going on a spree. The psychological barrier to kill someone with a gun is lower than to do the same killing with a knife or a bat (I won't bother to link to research confirming that, but there are lots. Google it). Also, it's way more efficient to kill several people with a gun than with melee weapons.

      In Norway anyone who's not blatantly ineligible (i.e. insane, or with a significant criminal record) can get a gun licence after taking a Hunter's licence. You can get a licence for a sidearm with a recommendation from a sports shooting club after being a member for a few months. Illicit guns can of course be obtained had for as little as a grand if you know where to look, so basically everyone can get one. Still shootings are rare, and mostly limited to inter-gang quarrels. This might also be because we have fewer gun-fetishists who have wet dreams about being able to kill someone legally with their guns (google for home defense guys (they're always guys) hoping they get a chance to try out their latest tacticLOL setup in a real-life "situation") than you guys, but I believe that the basic screening being done in Norway helps keeping those maniacs away.

      However, there was a period in which every member of the "Home Defence Force" reserve forces (a kind of National Guard in which everyone having served in the military could be enrolled, based on a lottery system) were required to keep a fully functional, fully automatic AG-3 7.62mm assault rifle and 100 rounds of ammo in their house at all times. There were an inordinately high amount of shootings with those service rifles, because... they were available. Those kinds of killings have gone way down after the store-at-home weapons were functionally disabled.

      So, in a society where everyone can carry a gun, it would mostly be the wrong kind of people who would actually want to. Shooting episodes would increase to the sky. In the really, really few-and-far-between situation where spree killers (terr'ist) are on the loose they would adapt by entering with even greater firepower, explosives, situational awareness and an irreverence regarding their own lives that would *still* put them on top of the situation. Nothing gained.

  2. Mental Illness Reporting by slasher999 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One point not made above is that health care providers are now able to report to the FBI the names of patients who are mentally ill. Considering the other new actions are for the most part redundant this is really the most concerning point.

    1. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's misleading because not all gun owners are mentally ill, mostly just the ones you see on TV.

    2. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A much bigger reason it's misleading is because the underlying assumption that "mentally ill = likely to be violent" is complete bullshit. The mentally ill are much more likely to be victims of violence than aggressors.

    3. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      So you're advocating for the right of the mentally ill to by guns?

    4. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by charyou-tree · · Score: 4, Interesting

      How could a federal database of people with mental health problems (instantly searchable during the background check) possibly be in compliance with HIPAA?

    5. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because HIPAA doesn't apply to the federal government when they don't want it to. Like most laws actually ...

    6. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HIPAA only applies to covered entities, and the government is not one. This is completely legal, and it's just common sense to make that information public to keep those guns out of the hands of more people and to enable police to confiscate those things.

    7. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      If true, it means someone with mental illness conditions will be much more reluctant than before to seek for health care provided his/her file can be transfer to the FBI. That is a silly measure that will cause more harm than good on the long term.

      About two thirds of the fatalities by firearms are suicids. If the goal is to protect the population against mass killings, it will have some effects on the people needing help if they are suicidals.

      This seems to me like a lot of bullshit and not well designed measures.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    8. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by khasim · · Score: 2

      Worse still will be when companies run checks on prospective employees using that database.

      And yes, it will happen.

      Ever sought medical help for depression? You're flagged. Good luck getting a decent job after that.

    9. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Go set your straw man on fire...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    10. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      While it is good in theory, In practice it is bad, What kind of mental illness are they going to fail a background check for ?.

      in practice it is going to cause a lot more people who SHOULD be seeking help with mental illness to not get help.

    11. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      since the VAST VAST majority of people shooting others with guns don't go through legal channels to get firearms How is it going to help ?

    12. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      How could a federal database of people with mental health problems (instantly searchable during the background check) possibly be in compliance with HIPAA?

      First off, thanks for getting the acronym right. Second, the answer is "easily". Only doctors, hospitals and similar medical firms, and insurers, and their agents, are bound by HIPAA. It doesn't constrain actions in tracking and sharing health information by anybody else.

    13. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      The only suicides it will help prevent are those by firearm, and the ones that cant do it by firearm will find another way. Any place that has banned firearms saw no change in overall suicides.

    14. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Kohath · · Score: 3, Informative

      How about if we give people due process before we start taking away their civil rights?

    15. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by bobbied · · Score: 1

      The problem here is that we have a legal principle in this country that you cannot preemptively take away people's rights. Government must ALWAYS show cause before it can take away somebody's rights. It's why we require a judge to sign search warrants and cannot just throw somebody in jail indefinitely for no reason.

      Owning firearms is something the government MUST allow, just like freedom of speech and the right to not testify at your own trial or give the police information. These rights can be suspended under specific circumstances, but the government is required in each case to show cause.

      Who's to say some person with mental illness is unfit? I don't know, but I do know that in order to suspend one's second amendment rights the government must show cause and having mental issues sometime in the past which may or may not be currently manifested seems to be a pretty thin bit of cause...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    16. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by TigerPlish · · Score: 1

      This. This is the point where the slope just became very slippery.

      Why stop at loons with guns?

      There's no stopping it now. We're in freefall.

      --
      The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
    17. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by tpjunkie · · Score: 1

      Surprise! Healthcare professionals have ALWAYS been able to (and in fact, are required) to report mentally ill people who express a plan to hurt themselves or others, even if they are not known to have access to firearms. Source: I am a physician, and have taken multiple, mandatory, work related "mandatory reporter" courses

    18. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      You have to remember, gays were considered mentally ill just a few decades ago.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      It should not be public information. It should be only as needed for law enforcement checks and only on mental illnesses that have a proven tendency of violence or actually incapacity to control one's self.

      I have to ask, Shall not be infringed. What if they started creating mental illnesses classifications based around political or whatever the fad of the day might be and deny free speech rights to those involved? Make no law and shall not be infringed seem to carry the same merit if you ask me. Is one acceptable and the other not?

    19. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by TigerPlish · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If this isn't checked it'll go beyond loons with guns. I think we, as a country, gun-friendly or not, just lost a great deal of protection with this connection between the medical profession and FBI.

      What's next? Getting a knock on the door at 3 am because they found THC in a lab sample taken for something entirely medical in nature? (As opposed to a deliberate drug screen)

      --
      The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
    20. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      What do you consider mentally ill ?

      We would all agree that a Paranoid Schizophrenic, with Violent tendencies is mentally ill and should not own guns.

      Would you say a Husband that is suffering from depression because he cant find a better job to make his families life better and went to the Dr about it. is he mentally ill ? i would say no. would the government ?

    21. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by bonehead · · Score: 1

      So you're advocating for the right of the mentally ill to by guns?

      If they're not prone to violence, absolutely.

      Are you saying that the life of a mentally ill person has no value, and they should not be allowed to defend themselves?

    22. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is like my friend who did 3 tours in Iraq in the Marines. He's actually pretty good PTSD-wise, if there's a loud bang or something he jumps like 3 feet, but he's quite stable otherwise. He thinks that he won't be able to get a pistol license because of his "mental illness".

      This is why so many of them refuse to ever be treated for it and suffer silently.

    23. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      And who will have access to this Broad Background check ? Just when people buy firearms ? or maybe when you want to get that new job ?

      What will they put in there for mental illness ? mild depression ?

    24. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by bonehead · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Which is exactly the reason why these new rules will only serve to aggravate the situation. They provide strong incentive for people who need mental health treatment to avoid seeking it.

      If the goal was really to save lives (it's not), then what you would do is make privacy in regards to mental health treatment iron-clad and airtight.

      If the goal is to simply circumvent the constitution (it is), then you do exactly what Obama is doing.

    25. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by bonehead · · Score: 1

      Only now they are also required to report people who have no inclination to harm themselves or anyone else.

    26. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by just+another+AC · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you want to decrease "gun deaths" - Yes.

      If he is severely depressed, owning a gun makes suicide too easy. If you want to have a significant impact on "gun deaths", one of the largest % groups is suicide.

      Will they still find another way? Possibly, but if you make it harder they are more likely to reconsider (especially if there is a long setup period for final method chosen or final method is not "clean").

    27. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This seems to me like a lot of bullshit and not well designed measures.

      How is that any different than any other Obama administration initiative?

    28. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by just+another+AC · · Score: 2

      citation?

      Because most things I read say the exact opposite:

      http://www.nytimes.com/interac...

    29. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Kohath · · Score: 2

      What will they put in there for mental illness ?

      "Anonymous informant reported odd behavior"

    30. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by tpjunkie · · Score: 1

      Care to show any shred of evidence about that?

    31. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      You do realize that banning guns or making them harder to get changes the suicide statistics in no way ?

      Australia had no change in Total suicides after their gun buy back.

      And no, Mild Depression is not a reason to ban people from owning a firearm. If that were the case, they should be banned from drinking alcohol, or driving for that matter, as it makes it to easy for them to drive into a crowded street corner.

    32. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by quintessencesluglord · · Score: 1

      Better- once you get tagged as mentally ill, do you ever have a chance to make it off the list again?

      I'm sure putting people in the position of giving up their right to self-protection or seeking treatment will do wonders for reducing the stigma on mental illness. Does Obama have any clue how many SSRIs are prescribed monthly?

      As it is, restricting weapons from felons has been a dismal failure, often stripping entire families of their constitutional rights due to one bad actor, or making reintegration strained even more with the lack of social support.

      Adding to that clusterfuck with the mentally ill, and possibly reducing social support to them is just plain fucked-up. The mentally ill make up less than 5% of perpetrators, and are 2.5 times more likely to be victims of violent crime.

      Way to go.

    33. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but mass shootings do not count as the VAST majority of people shooting others. in fact actual mass shootings in the united states accounted for less than 100 people.

    34. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      I call cherry pick on several different fronts. 1) "legally purchased" is counted even if the weapon is stolen (like Lanza from his mother), 2) "mass shooting" excludes the vast majority of gun crime

      http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub...

      They have some good data there on stolen guns (which by definition, is illegal). So when an article says "legally purchased", they don't necessarily mean "legally purchased by the shooter" (although certainly, there are examples of that in mass shootings).

      Also see:

      https://d3uwh8jpzww49g.cloudfr...

      "*Our respondents (adult offenders living in Chicago or nearby) obtain most of their guns from their social network of personal connections. " (that's called "illegal")

    35. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the logic is along the lines of....more barriers means fewer guns obtained, which means fewer guns produced, which means fewer guns available to steal, which means less availability of guns to people who would abuse them.

      The logic is very specious.

    36. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      Exactly, I read a study on exactly that and the conclusion is it doesn't change anything to the suicides rate. However, this regulation will even have harmful effects on those who may had decided to consult and will not in the fear their records will be shared with the FBI or someone else.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    37. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you idiots keep repeating this.

      Okay, how about we make a deal. You find any proof that banning firearms has any effect on suicide rates and I'll apologize for calling you an idiot. There is NO correlation between gun availability and overall suicide rates. If there was any, then South Korea wouldn't be the country with the second highest suicide rate on earth and Japan wouldn't be near the top as well. Now of course, I realize I'm speaking in facts and not feel good bullshit, so I'm unlikely to sway you, but for fucks sake, quit spreading lies.

    38. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HIPAA provides zero privacy from the government.

      Summary of the HIPAA Privacy Rule

    39. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      But all that seems to matter to these people on their conquest is that they aren't killing themselves with GUNS. and when that drops off (as seen in England) they will want a Knife registry. because GOD forbid someone kill themselves with a knife. because it is all those chefs killing people with knives.

    40. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So now that depressed people know that they will have their guns confiscated if they admit that they are depressed, they will not seek treatment. These untreated people will then possibly kill themselves. Congratulations, gun-grabber, your plan has cost more lives than it saved.

    41. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Okay.

      If i'm depressed I can just gulp down a few Oleander leaves that grow around here as landscaping. Doesn't get much easier than that.

      Don-t even need a background check either :|

    42. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      How could a federal database of people with mental health problems (instantly searchable during the background check) possibly be in compliance with HIPAA?

      When public health is at risk, HIPAA laws have certain limitations. For example, in the case of an Ebola outbreak, state and federal government can share patients' medical records.

      An argument could be made that psychopaths buying guns represents a clear public health risk.

      http://www.toledoblade.com/ima...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    43. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      Who's to say some person with mental illness is unfit?

      This guy agrees:

      http://img03.abroad.imgcdc.com...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    44. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are vastly wrong. Most shooting are with legal guns.

    45. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by khasim · · Score: 1

      That's why I prefer to use "preventable death" instead of "gun death". The method of suicide should not matter.

      Anyway, here's the stats for the world:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rateAs you can see, Australia has very few guns but almost the same suicide rate as the USofA (12.1 v 11.5).

      Suicide is an important issue. But people should not be trying to use it to bolster anti-gun statistics. It is a separate issue.

    46. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      What if they started creating mental illnesses classifications based around political or whatever the fad of the day might be and deny free speech rights to those involved?

      And what if Saturn started spinning really really fast and it's rings got loose and spun towards Earth like a giant frisbee with razor blades and cut our planet clean in half? Then what, huh? And then because the Earth had been cut in half, Obama said, "Everyone left alive has to lean to the left to keep the half-world from wobbling" and then all the guns slid out of our pockets and off into space?? You fuckers didn't think of that, did you?

      Checkmate, liberal bitches.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    47. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's OK under HIPAA because it's not just a psyche doctor reporting your personal records. In order to be disqualified from owning a firearm you have to be adjudicated (legally judged in other words) as incompetent by an actual judge. That becomes part of a legal record, not a mental health record. When your mental health issues become legal issues that SHOULD be plain evidence that they're public record but some states aren't clear on that. I don't get why.

      After the VT massacre, worst school shooting in US history, it was found that Cho should have been denied by NICS but Virginia wasn't reporting mentally incompetent adjudications like they should have.

    48. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Would you say a Husband that is suffering from depression because he cant find a better job to make his families life better and went to the Dr about it. is he mentally ill ? i would say no. would the government ?

      I would say, "abso-fucking-lutely". The husband suffering from depression because he can't find a job and goes to the doctor and is prescribed anti-depressants should absolutely be prevented from buying a gun.

      Let him find a way to kill himself that won't involve him shooting up his family, his ex-boss and maybe several neighbors and cops. Dude doesn't need guns, he needs to take his meds and get back to work.

      What the fuck is wrong with you?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    49. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by ScentCone · · Score: 2

      Go set your straw man on fire...

      Which straw man? The one that's telling the truth?

      When you buy a gun, you assert on the federal paperwork that you're not under psychiatric care, on meds - the usual stuff. It doesn't ask if you are suicidal or thinking of hurting someone. You understand that, right? So Obama wants doctors to report psychiatric care/medication to the FBI pre-emptively. So that when a person is thinking of a purchase, it's no longer the honor system when they're filling out the paperwork. Their doctor's government reporting will prevent the background check from going through. Your doctor is now going to be involved in prior restraint and loss of a constitutionally protected right without due process. Thanks, Mr. Obama! At least you're consistent.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    50. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      (especially if there is a long setup period for final method chosen or final method is not "clean")

      Do you really think that someone shooting themselves to death is in any way "clean?" Have you ever so much as shot a squirrel to make stew?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    51. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All firearms were legal from the point of manufacture forward, so unless every firearm used to commit a crime is a stolen firearm, your assertion is so illogical that it is not even wrong.

      Any criminal can walk in to any gun show anywhere in the united states and can walk out with a firearm without question. It might not be 'legal' in that if they have a prior conviction they might be restricted from buying/selling/owning but it is most certainly 'a legal channel' that many firearms are purchased through to commit a crime, specifically because of the lack of paper trail.

    52. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      You do realize guns can be made relatively easily right? Look at what Israel did with the Uzi. Right now it is far easier to just buy them. But the cat is already out of the bag.

    53. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      what the fuck is wrong with you ? Prove that mild depression is going to make this person kill himself or others. There are thousands upon thousands of people across the united states suffering from mild depression that never have any thoughts of killing themselves or others and are just, depressed.

      So unless you can show that this person is a danger to others why would you take away his right to own a firearm ?

    54. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by tsotha · · Score: 1

      If true, it means someone with mental illness conditions will be much more reluctant than before to seek for health care provided his/her file can be transfer to the FBI.

      This. People will no longer seek treatment for things like depression and PTSD.

    55. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Dude doesn't need guns, he needs to take his meds and get back to work.
      What the fuck is wrong with you?

      What the fuck is wrong with you, sucking corporate cock like this? It's quite uncharacteristic. His job is probably meaningless, and soul- and biosphere-destroying, and a big part of the reason why he wants to kill himself. Get back to work, indeed. Go turn the screws, peon.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    56. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The mentally ill have the same rights as everyone else, so yes. As I said, mentally ill does not imply violent.

    57. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let him find a way to kill himself that won't involve him shooting up his family, his ex-boss and maybe several neighbors and cops

      Right, because depressed equals suicidal, suicidal equals homicidal, and owning a gun magically prevents you from taking medications.

      Or you're a lying scumbag. Yeah, that's the one.

    58. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      You forgot to say crying manbabies and accuse him of being bitter just because he can't (find a job/get laid/make a friend) or some other made up thing :-)

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    59. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't constrain actions in tracking and sharing health information by anybody else.

      Any organization or individual bound by HIPAA, by virtue of their necessary access to protected health information or PHI, cannot release that information to any other organization or individual unless it's both necessary to facilitate the provision of healthcare and that organization or individual is likewise bound by HIPAA. Any sharing outside of that is a breach and can result in fines or criminal prosecution. HIPAA is no joke and it's taken very seriously in the healthcare industry because the government can and does levy massive fines every year for violations. No hospital, doctor, insurance company or any other organization that handles PHI is going to knowingly breach HIPAA short of a court order.

    60. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      in order to suspend one's second amendment rights the government must show cause and having mental issues sometime in the past which may or may not be currently manifested seems to be a pretty thin bit of cause

      It could also be argued that a person deemed mentally unfit is entitled to an open court hearing to challenge that. Otherwise, they're being denied their right to due process. This shouldn't be like the "no-fly" lists where those who somehow got on them had no legal means to contest it.

    61. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Prove that mild depression is going to make this person kill himself or others.

      You just added "mild" to the statement, thinking nobody would notice.. You know the warning label on medicine? The one that goes, "Avoid operating motor vehicles..."? If you're depressed, best to stay away from guns.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    62. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      His job is probably meaningless, and soul- and biosphere-destroying, and a big part of the reason why he wants to kill himself.

      Good reason to stay away from guns, I'd say.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    63. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      How could a federal database of people with mental health problems (instantly searchable during the background check) possibly be in compliance with HIPAA?

      When you apply for a gun permit no doubt you are giving permission to the feds to be able to search your relevant medical records.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    64. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by dwillden · · Score: 1

      Because two or three such individuals per year or heck even per month is a national health epidemic worthy of trashing the privacy rights of the millions of citizens who suffer from the many various forms of mental illness, yet don't go on psychotic rampages.

      Sorry but the incidence is so low as to be a statistical anomaly not a clear public health risk.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    65. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by dywolf · · Score: 1

      It's misleading because not all gun owners are mentally ill, mostly just the ones you see on TV.

      This is true.
      It's also misleading because most of homicide with a firearm also don't involve mental illness.
      Mental illness, which is generally an unresolved problem in this nation outside of the gun debate, does however make a convenient scapegoat to prevent any action on gun control.

      Truth is both problems need solving, and using one to stall the other is despicable.

      ( http://www.salon.com/2015/06/1... )

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    66. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Any organization or individual bound by HIPAA

      Incorrect. Quoting from Health and Human Services own website on HIPAA: "The HIPAA Privacy Rule establishes national standards to protect individualsâ(TM) medical records and other personal health information and applies to health plans, health care clearinghouses, and those health care providers that conduct certain health care transactions electronically."

      HIPAA is no joke and it's taken very seriously in the healthcare industry because the government can and does levy massive fines every year for violations.

      Indeed they do, and those in the health care industry do take it very seriously, as it applies to them. But not to those outside it.

    67. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      it's just common sense to make that information public to keep those guns out of the hands of more people and to enable police to confiscate those things.

      It's just as much common sense to post a list of those who have AIDs, Herpes, etc that people can check before having sex with someone.

      Doing so would save at least 1 life and that seems to be the bar on whether we should be able to take away a right from someone.

    68. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by penandpaper · · Score: 1

      Glad to see that you are so quick to dismiss a persons civil liberties without due process because they were depressed.

      I think we should extend this to the press. Rush Limbaugh was popping pills; he shouldn't have the ability to speak on the media any more. I see Glenn Beck crying on TV, that means mentally unstable that means he shouldn't have the right to speak. Thinking about it, someone "mentally unstable" doesn't need a lawyer; they need to be put in a hospital. They don't need a jury trial of their peers; they need a psyche evaluation by a panel of "experts".

      You are the type of gun control prick that scares me the most. You turn any excuse into a scapegoat to undermine the rights and liberties guaranteed to us all. When will that excuse be used to circumvent other rights?

      Who cares about innocent until proven guilty. Listen and believe amiright? Someone at one time who was depressed did something bad therefore all depressed people are bad. Hitler had a mustache and Stalin had a mustache... Therefore Tom Selleck is a murderer.

      Fuck you prick.

    69. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Worse still will be when companies run checks on prospective employees using that database.

      And yes, it will happen.

      Ever sought medical help for depression? You're flagged. Good luck getting a decent job after that.

      In that case, your society has more worrying problems than a few idiots having guns.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    70. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by thoromyr · · Score: 1

      mod +1 insightful, -1 depressing

    71. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Except for the part where your crazy example is supposed to argue the nonexistence of something that regularly and repeatedly happens throughout history.

      P.S: Wat

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    72. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      PTSD from being attacked and raped? Nope, can't own a gun, even though it would help to reduce the panic attacks and would make you feel safer.

      Mentally abusive husband twists your mind constantly making you feel like you have no power, you finally get away from him, and are prevented from owning a handgun to protect yourself from former abusive husband.

      http://www.theblaze.com/storie...

      The proper response to an abusive ex is to own a gun, would he dare break in if you had a firearm pointed at the door?

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    73. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or charging someone with terrorism for using a fire break to protect their home and crops from a wildfire.

    74. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Personal sales of firearms require no background check. If I buy a handgun and sell it on to you, I don't even have to ask if you are a gangbanger. It is actually not illegal, nor is it addressed by Obama's gun control changes.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    75. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Boy, you just don't get it and keep stuffing that sack with straw...

      You where claiming the previous poster was advocating that all mentally ill folks should be allowed to buy guns, when in fact, he/she wasn't. That is the essence of a "straw man" argument. I was pointing out the logical fallacy.

      Now grab that match and stop jumping to your own conclusions...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    76. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any criminal can walk in to any gun show anywhere in the united states and can walk out with a firearm without question.

      That's not true. No state eases restrictions for gun shows. If you can buy a gun without an oppressive amount of hassle in the parking lot of a gun show, then you can buy the same gun in any parking lot in the same state.

      The problem is that NICS, the gun background system, has been prevented from doing background checks for private sales by the Democrats. If the Democrats would allow NICS checks, then private citizens could do background checks to verify the buyer. Instead, the Democrats are blocking background checks, and Obama said this week he wants to even further limit the number of people that can do background checks on gun sales.

    77. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PTSD from being attacked and raped? Nope, can't own a gun, even though it would help to reduce the panic attacks and would make you feel safer.

      Guns aren't the only weapons. They're the easiest, but aren't the only ones. Tasers, mace, baseball bat... How about taking up self defense and martial arts? The exercise would be good for the body too.

      Mentally abusive husband twists your mind constantly making you feel like you have no power, you finally get away from him, and are prevented from owning a handgun to protect yourself from former abusive husband.

      Two wrongs don't make a right. "You" choose your partner poorly the first time. Running away and getting a gun so the consequences don't catch up to you is just another mistake.

      The responsible thing to do, the "proper response", is confront the dude and sort out your relationship. Maybe you can fix the marriage. If not, ends the marriage amicably so he won't hound you (nor you him). If the dude's so crazy and abusive that he can't be reasoned with without the presence of guns, the proper response would be to get him some help or lock him up (but considering you choose him, you might need some help yourself)

    78. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But it is the doctors, nurses and other medical professionals who have to report the mental health state to the NICS system, which isn't a healthcare system. So the medical personal have to violate HIPAA to report someone in the first place.

    79. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      IIRC, the Soviet Union recognized a mental illness that amounted to opposing the government. It's been done.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    80. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Personally, I'm on antidepressants, and expect this to continue for the rest of my life. Would this stop me from buying a gun? In what way would I be more dangerous than any other random person with a gun?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    81. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Agripa · · Score: 1

      What's next? Getting a knock on the door at 3 am because they found THC in a lab sample taken for something entirely medical in nature? (As opposed to a deliberate drug screen)

      They do not even need that much. Just having a state issued medical marijuana card is sufficient to have your name added to the federal database and your background check denied.

    82. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Actually, straw buyers *are* illegal.

      That being said, you're right, nothing Obama has done has anything to do with prosecuting straw buyers (gangbanger mothers and girlfriends most often).

    83. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Australia had no change in Total suicides after their gun buy back.

      The rate of increase in suicide rates levelled off after the 1996 gun buy back --since you don't have an alternative Australia to compare what the suicide rate would have been without that buy back you cannot claim it affected "suicide statistics in no way" --and the suicide rate dropped after the 2003 buy-back (which is not to claim any causal relationship).

    84. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The no-fly lists shouldn't be like the no-fly lists. Just because a 3-year-old has the same name as some other wackado somewhere else doesn't mean the 3-year-old is a threat.

    85. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ifhe is severely depressed, owning a gun makes suicide too
      easy.

      What's wrong with that, coppertop? To suggest that people have a right
      to live but not a right to die constitutes nothing less than a failure
      of logic.

    86. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      someone who is depressed over a low paying job and not being able to find another one i would call a mild case of depression, they have no one to project on other than themselves, they have no reason to kill their wife or kids.

      now someone going through a divorce where their SO is taking everything. then there may be cause for alarm.

      Do you know the reason to stay away from a motor vehicle ? its because it causes drowsiness, and poor motor skills. not because its going to make you deliberately drive into a group of people. Having a gun in the house while on these meds is not going to be an issue.

    87. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      Total suicides or suicides by firearm.

    88. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      so you think a small woman with a knife is going to fend off a determined rapist. a firearm does a much better job of 1) making someone feel safer. With that feeling comes being more calm and level headed. 2) works much better than a knife one swing of a knife and thats it, you re done, person steps inside your attack and you are trapped. knives are very poor defensive weapons.
      Other options of pepper spray, are situational, can cause just as much harm to the user, and commercial pepper spray is not much better than pepper mixed with water. it is not the same strength as police pepper spray.

    89. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      Having a gun in the house while on these meds is not going to be an issue.

      Of course it is. Privately-owned guns are more likely to be used to commit suicide, kill a spouse or accidentally shoot someone than to prevent a crime or defend a family.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    90. Re: Mental Illness Reporting by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Do you know the reason to stay away from a motor vehicle ? its because it causes drowsiness, and poor motor skills

      Wait a minute. You think it's OK for someone with "poor motor skills" to own a semi-auto weapon?

      That's as stupid as the guy who gets his wife an AR-15 because "she has bad aim".

      Fucking gun-goofs, honest to god.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    91. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Why keep speculating about what impact changes like this will make? There are dozens of modern countries around the world with orders of magnitude (several orders) less gun deaths than the US. Surely we can examine them and see what works and what doesn't?

    92. Re:Mental Illness Reporting by bonehead · · Score: 1

      Why focus on "gun deaths"? That's stupid.

      I would take all of you gun control freaks much more seriously if you simply wanted to lower the murder rate as a whole.

      Focusing on just one kind of murder betrays your true agenda, which has nothing to do with saving lives, and everything to do with denying people their constitutional rights.

  3. Only good guys should shoot guns by gavron · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The regulations would hope to create a firearm that only is
    a) Shot by good people, and
    b) Is only able to shoot at bad people
    That way nobody ever needs to worry about guns.

    This is as misguided as "encryption that only good people can break"
    or "cars that can only hit bad pedestrians" etc.

    Smarter guns in the hands of equally stupid bad guys will do equally
    stupid bad things.

    E

    1. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by zlives · · Score: 1

      as long there is a back door to the smart gun that law-enforcement can use to disable the smart gun when appropriate i am all for it...

    2. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by theIsovist · · Score: 1

      Or this is an attempt to stop the scourge of baby assassins. You have to worry about those kids, they are the terrorists from within: http://forward.com/opinion/176...

    3. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by zieroh · · Score: 1

      Your summary of the situation is your own. It's also unnecessarily defeatist, and more than a bit reductionist. Perhaps you'd be willing to engage in an actual intelligent conversation on the topic, rather than just stupid rhetoric?

      --
      People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
    4. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by sims+2 · · Score: 1

      Best case scenario:
      Gun that doesn't shoot you when it's taken from you.
      Worst case scenario (most likely) :
      Gun that doesn't shoot when you need it to.

      Still yet I like the idea. I just don't think I will like the implementation.

      In gun's defense most of the time you don't need to shoot all someone has to do is see it to de-escalate the problem.

      Still you wouldn't carry around a toy pistol and just hope you could could scare an off an attacker before they realised would you?

      --
      Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
    5. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea...that works well doesn't it?

    6. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or after a few months, a bad guy can use to disable all the police guns.

    7. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as long there is a back door to the smart gun that law-enforcement can use to disable the smart gun when appropriate i am all for it...

      Enjoy the gulags when they finally come for you.

    8. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Is a straw man really the best argument you can come up with? At least put some effort into it, there are plenty of legitimate ones to pick from.

      The goal is to create a gun that can only be used by its lawful owner. The real concerns are will the technology be reliable enough to be a net benefit, and will there be any logging of users and shots fired?

      It's like a seatbelt. 99 times it of 100 it saves your life, 1 time it kills you... Seems like it would be worth having, as long as it doesn't log if you used it or not.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    9. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heck, maybe even you would, instead of saying that with no counterargument whatever.

    10. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The goal is to create a gun that can only be used by its lawful owner.

      It's a good goal. The problem is that our technology is not sufficiently advanced. If it were, we'd be using all electronically ignited firearms, because they are superior in every way other than reliability. You would think eliminating some moving parts would improve reliability, but it doesn't. The point at which you involve electronics in your firing decision path is the point at which they are necessary, like if you had an energy weapon. If you're making a slug-thrower, you're going to make it work without batteries, because you don't need to introduce unreliability.

      Someday, it will make sense to do this. Not today.

      It's like a seatbelt. 99 times it of 100 it saves your life, 1 time it kills you... Seems like it would be worth having, as long as it doesn't log if you used it or not.

      Actually, every time a seatbelt actually saves your life, there will be a record of the event, at least in a modern car; an airbag will deploy, and then the black box will record the event, and the PCM will also save an OBD-II freeze frame as well as some historical data (at least 30 seconds before and after activation.) But more importantly, seatbelts don't really kill people. If being stopped by a seatbelt would kill you, then flying out of the car and coming to a sudden stop against something else would probably kill you as well. Having your gun not work when you want it really can kill you, and moreover, it's taking control out of your hands. The device manufacturer will not want to be responsible for doing that, because when they do, they will be taking control and they will be responsible for the weapon not firing.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    11. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      You are right, the tech isn't there yet, which is why Obama asked for it to be investigated. Defining the problem and weaknesses of existing systems, and what an acceptable system looks like, is the first step.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    12. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by khallow · · Score: 1

      If it were, we'd be using all electronically ignited firearms, because they are superior in every way other than reliability.

      Which makes them a bit far from superior in the firearm world, though I get that is your point. Ease of manufacture is another big inferior BTW.

    13. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      I never thought I'd see the day when regulars on /. argued for DRM.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    14. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by jhol13 · · Score: 1

      The regulation, as I understand it, would try to keep (functional) guns from bad guys.
      Will it succeed 100%? No. Can it? No. But even 1% (less deaths) would be huge improvement, right?

      As I am a foreigner, I probably should not give advice, but as an egoistic asshole I still give:
      1: Remove the right to own guns from everybody. Give it back to those who register their guns. (get a better wording for same effect as this would never pass)
      2: Penalise people who mishandle their guns (store/carry inappropriately, etc.) by revokin their gun permits. Or more. (ref: kid who shot neighbor kid: the owner of the gun should be severely penalized, IMHO).
      3: Guns can (legally) be sold only to persons with a permit (for that particular gun). There needs to be easy and relatively cheap way to get the permit. "Bad" guys don't get one.

      Something like this works, to a degree, in EU. It is by far not perfect, but better than nothing.

    15. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      do you have a rebuttal, other than stupid rhetoric?

    16. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by thoromyr · · Score: 1

      If you added in a couple of points to cover hunting and recreational shooting, I think that pretty much sums it up and illustrates nicely why there cannot be a technical solution to the problem.

    17. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait what?
      I hope this isn't from personal experience. You have done this before? Was it road rage?
      How many times have you been attacked and scared them off with your big gun you big man you?
      None? You are so full of shit.

    18. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know this is a prime example of an edge case, but when I worked on the ambulance in Laurence, MA, my partner had to dive into a river and cut the seatbelt off of a corpse. The cold water actually helped her in this case and we managed to revive her, but she was technically dead when he pulled her out of the water.
      (Partner was a certified rescue diver.)

      However, that is the ONLY time I've ever seen a seatbelt be anything other than helpful. From my experience working on an ambulance, seatbelts save lives.

    19. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by KGIII · · Score: 1

      It is certainly not a toy but, more often than not, the firearm I choose for my daily carry is chambered in .22 LR. No, I have no intention of stopping an active shooter and a bunch of his friends - I am not Rambo. I like the deterrent nature and, if needed, I can always use more rounds and keep them on-target.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    20. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gulag means - - General Directorate of Camps

      So you should soon enjoy your cencentration camps under General Directorate of FEMA

    21. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Bad guys dont get one"? Do you know how easy it is to buy a military weapon or a ordinary pistol from a mexican cartel? Or from a bad FBI, FEMA human? Bad guys will always get the guns. And when good sitizens cant own guns like you propose, then te shit hits the fan. Government will stomp all dissidents.

    22. Re:Only good guys should shoot guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I never thought I'd see a slashdotter mistaking a safety for DRM. This device is no different from a lock THAT YOU OWN on a device THAT YOU OWN that you use to lock the items away so that SOMEONE ELSE can't take it for themselves. DRM is SOMEONE ELSE putting a lock THAT THEY OWN on a "device" that YOU PAID FOR to allow SOMEONE ELSE to say whether you can use what you bought or not.

  4. smart gun technology by zlives · · Score: 4, Funny

    my gun is stuck on "Please do not power off or unplug your gun. Installing update 1 of 106"

    1. Re:smart gun technology by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      A new device has to be connected to your smart phone. Before every new operational cycle is allowed to be released an EULA has to be understood and a few questions clicked on. The EULA is long and a lock out time is allowed so the user can get each question correct. Only then will the device release control for exactly one operation. 5 requests result in a a short time out function.
      All usage events are logged with gps and phoned home.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    2. Re:smart gun technology by bobbied · · Score: 1

      You left it on overnight on patch release Tuesday with auto update turned on eh? Buddy you got problems... BSD

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    3. Re:smart gun technology by raind · · Score: 1

      How about Smart People Technology?

      --
      Get up!
    4. Re:smart gun technology by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      I installed gentoo on my smart gun. It's constantly compiling the latest updates. emerge failures only occur on 25% of any given period of time.

    5. Re:smart gun technology by supremebob · · Score: 1

      I used to have this fancy holographic sight on my home self defense gun, and forgot to take the batteries out during winter storage. Not only did the batteries die, but they leaked and destroyed the sight. If I needed to actually use that gun to protect myself, I wouldn't been able to properly aim the damn thing.

      Now, imagine that happening with a "Smart Gun" lock. Forget not being able to aim the gun, you won't even be able to shoot it at a time when the bad guy might be pointing a gun at you.

      So, yeah... I learned a LONG time ago that you do NOT want a device with a battery in your self defense weapon. It WILL die at the most inopportune time, leaving you defenseless.

  5. Sure! by therealkevinkretz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'll bet my life on a smart gun working as soon as law enforcement (and, for that matter, the Secret Service) is confident enough in them to use them too.

    1. Re:Sure! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course they'll use them... with the smart part disabled.

    2. Re:Sure! by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      We should get smart shooters too. Most of them seem to keep hitting stop signs and electricity transformers.

    3. Re:Sure! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll bet my life on a smart gun working as soon as law enforcement (and, for that matter, the Secret Service) is confident enough in them to use them too.

      Doesn't matter how smart the gun is when it's in the hands of an idiot.

    4. Re:Sure! by zAPPzAPP · · Score: 1

      Shadowrun has taught me a different definition of the term 'smart gun'. You know, link up to my cyber-eyes, mind-triggered, auto-aim-adjust...

      Where did this new definition come from? It does not seem nearly as cool.

    5. Re:Sure! by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      Id like to see your reasoning for the "Most shooters" part. MOST shooters are law abiding citizens that don't go around shooting street signs. With the number of gun owners in the united states if MOST went around shooting street signs and hydro transformers then it would be a mess out there as there wouldn't be a single sign you could read, and everyone would be without power.

    6. Re:Sure! by PPH · · Score: 1

      No problem. We've already got Lennart Poettering working on the drivers.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    7. Re:Sure! by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      Don't you meant a backdoor installed?

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    8. Re:Sure! by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      It's a joke, sheesh. Calm down and lower the gun. These are usually kids doing this anyway to test out the .22 they got for christmas.

      Besides there are parts of the country where it's hard to find a stop sign without a hole in it, and power utilities have said a common reason for transformer failures is from bullet holes and sensor devices can help monitor this (this includes capacitor or inductor banks or anything else that sits up on a pole).

    9. Re:Sure! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The most bullet ridden sign that I have ever seen was the "Hometown of President Bill Clinton" sign on the way into Hope Arkansas.

    10. Re:Sure! by DogDude · · Score: 0

      You bet your life on a gun? Where do you live, Somalia?

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    11. Re:Sure! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Much like "hoverboard" and "drone", the term has been coopted by its retarded distant cousin.

    12. Re:Sure! by therealkevinkretz · · Score: 1

      I hope never to have to. Statistically, I probably won't. But if it's ever needed, that's exactly what I'd be doing.

    13. Re:Sure! by DogDude · · Score: 1

      That's good. I walk around with a lightning rod in my hand. Statistically, I'll never need it, but if it's ever needed, I'll have it.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    14. Re:Sure! by therealkevinkretz · · Score: 1

      That's an ignorant comparison. There were 26 lightning fatalities in the US last year.

    15. Re:Sure! by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I'll bet my life on a smart gun working as soon as law enforcement (and, for that matter, the Secret Service) is confident enough in them to use them too.

      That's funny. In the rest of the civilised world we simply bet our lives on law enforcement using their guns (if they have any) and us getting by without.

    16. Re:Sure! by therealkevinkretz · · Score: 1

      That's nice. Do they tuck you in at night, too? I don't know where you live, but go find one of the people you're entrusting your life to who does carry a gun and ask them if they'd trade it for a "Smart Gun".

      It's really a separate discussion but in the US, our highest court has affirmed that the police don't have an obligation to respond promptly to a call or prevent crimes in commission when they're reported.

    17. Re:Sure! by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I don't know where you live, but go find one of the people you're entrusting your life to who does carry a gun and ask them if they'd trade it for a "Smart Gun".

      A lot don't carry guns so I think this is a moot point. They are starting to introduce tazers though.

      It's really a separate discussion but in the US, our highest court has affirmed that the police don't have an obligation to respond promptly to a call or prevent crimes in commission when they're reported.

      Likewise. There's no legal obligation. Funny enough even in what must seem like absolute chaos to you (no laws forcing police to protect you, no constitutional right to free speech, guns are all but banned and citizens don't have any) our civilisation hasn't imploded, our democracy appears to work as good if not better than that in the USA, and we are also don't walk around thinking "if I shout abuse at that person, or cut him off in my car, will I get shot?" (actual thing which happened to an American friend of mine, just a flesh-wound though).

      You may feel safe in your country openly waving your gun around, but quite frankly statistically I'm much safer and much less likely to be locked up by the government in mine.

    18. Re:Sure! by therealkevinkretz · · Score: 1

      If you live in a place where even most law enforcement doesn't carry weapons, then it must be nearly free of violent crime.

      I don't "feel safe in [my] country openly waving [my] gun around" because 1) I don't live in a state where ordinary people are allowed to carry them and 2) if I did it would be concealed carry.

      "statistically I'm much safer and much less likely to be locked up by the government in mine" - no argument here, the USA locks up more people per capita than anyone, IIRC. And that's mostly due to out stupid War on Drugs, which is also where a lot of the violent crime comes from.

  6. This will help law enforcement be safer. by KingBozo · · Score: 1

    Sounds like this could stop all those cop killings with RFID, Fingerprints and other technology to prevent accidental shootings. Oppppppps, this won't be required for law enforcement.

  7. smart technology by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How bout some Smart President Technology?
    This won't work with my High wall
    or the zip gun someone just made on their lathe

  8. Round up all the nutcases by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The police need to go door to door and round up all the nutcases -- both those who want to shoot those loveable friendly fuzzy cops, and the ones calling for a repeal of our Constitutional rights.

    1. Re:Round up all the nutcases by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The police need to go door to door and round up all the nutcases...

      All the nutcase? The NRA membership alone is about 5 million, add to that criminals and we're probably talking tens of millions.

    2. Re:Round up all the nutcases by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder how long it'll take you to realize why that means you'd be one of the first to get picked up...

    3. Re:Round up all the nutcases by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now you're just being facetious. The GP obviously meant that the police will be the last to disarm. Once everyone else is disarmed there is no need to worry about being shot at and once Trump's wall goes up there will be no long need to worry about guns getting into the country illegally. At that point the police can disarm too.

    4. Re:Round up all the nutcases by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Great. Everyone is now disarmed.

      You're a female cop, on the beat. You're confronted by five angry gangsters, who are all unarmed, just like you. Now you get to experience gang rape.

      The 2nd amendment is the ultimate feminist amendment.

    5. Re:Round up all the nutcases by bobbied · · Score: 1

      And they thought Trump was nuts with the deportation of all the illegals idea... Shesh..

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    6. Re:Round up all the nutcases by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How long have you suffered from these delusions? Or do you enjoy them?

  9. It should be compulsory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For all Americans to own guns, sans "smart gun technology" - and to be trained in their proper use.

    1. Re:It should be compulsory by x0ra · · Score: 1

      Sure, the best US school is called the Marines Corps (or Navy / Army / Air Force)...

    2. Re:It should be compulsory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That would be reasonable. When everyone has a weapon, it should give pause to those who would use them.

    3. Re:It should be compulsory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > It should be compulsory for all Americans to own guns ... and to be trained in their proper use.

      You are thereby violating the 1st Amendment on the freedom of religion. The hindi for example try to abide by the principle of Ahisma or non-violence, you know Gandhi and sacred cow, etc.

  10. That will stop the cartels & thugs by BoRegardless · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Everyone will be finally safe.

    1. Re:That will stop the cartels & thugs by zieroh · · Score: 1

      Sarcasm duly noted. So I take it you would be in favor of doing nothing, rather than something, on the grounds that you think nothing will work?

      How defeatist.

      --
      People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
    2. Re:That will stop the cartels & thugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, please do something. In fact, here's an idea. . . come and take it.

    3. Re:That will stop the cartels & thugs by x0ra · · Score: 1

      let me fire up my lathe and my CNC mill, and we'll see if everybody is still safe ;-)

    4. Re:That will stop the cartels & thugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been thinking on a similar vain in regards to cartels. I hear constantly from the left that we might as well legalize drugs, because clearly banning them doesn't work. Why do people think that if it doesn't work for drugs, it'd work for other things such as firearms? How is it a person can view an action as pointless on one thing, yet view it as necessary for another? And lets be honest here, if you look across the swath of countries that have banned firearms, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It really seems to be more cultural than anything on if it will work. Why not concentrate on the cultural problems that leads to the violence rather than the symptom?

    5. Re:That will stop the cartels & thugs by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Let's pick something else - say, the unwarranted recording and surveillance of every phone conversation in America. Obviously it won't work, since we simply don't have enough people or computing power to actually scan through every conversation, but are you saying we should just let people have private and possibly dangerous conversations, and do nothing, on the grounds that you think nothing will work?

      How defeatist :)

      Sometimes, nothing is the right thing to do. In the case of self defense rights in the united states, we should have instant background check, national CCW standards honored by every state, and mandatory firearms safety and marksmanship training in every public school.

    6. Re:That will stop the cartels & thugs by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      How about the Police actually enforce the laws in place instead of trying to make more laws to cover the ones NOT being enforced ?

    7. Re:That will stop the cartels & thugs by bonehead · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So I take it you would be in favor of doing nothing, rather than something,

      Yes. Doing nothing is always preferable to doing something harmful just to be able to say "we did something".

    8. Re:That will stop the cartels & thugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keep in mind that gun suicides are responsible for twice as many deaths as gun homicides. People need to be kept safe from themselves.

    9. Re:That will stop the cartels & thugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Politician's fallacy. We must do something. X is something. Therefore, we must do X.

    10. Re:That will stop the cartels & thugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IF they do that, how can they stack multiple charges for "possession of concealed weapon without a license" while you drive to the shooting range?

    11. Re:That will stop the cartels & thugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So I take it you would be in favor of doing nothing, rather than something, on the grounds that you think nothing will work?

      Strawman arguments are lies.

    12. Re:That will stop the cartels & thugs by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      "We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    13. Re:That will stop the cartels & thugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Doing nothing?
      Let's start at the beginning, define the problem. Go ahead, we'll wait.

    14. Re:That will stop the cartels & thugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  11. Brouhaha. by msauve · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "The most controversial of the provisions requires licenses for those who sell guns at gun shows and on the internet, and forces background checks on buyers."

    It's all bullshit. Those on the right hype it as an unconstitutional overreach. Obama hypes it as a significant change which will help close the "gun show loophole."

    They're both exaggerating, extremely. The only thing Obama did was to emphasize already existing law/regulation. It has long been the case that anyone who is "in the business" of selling guns (i.e. regularly for profit) must have a Federal Firearms License, and do background checks on those they sell to. It's never mattered where the guns were sold, it's based solely on whether the seller is doing it as a business. What Obama did changes nothing, except perhaps serve notice that they'll be paying more attention to enforcing existing law/regulation.

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    1. Re:Brouhaha. by zieroh · · Score: 1

      So if his action was (as you seem to indicate) a no-op, then you've got nothing to complain about. Right?

      Right?

      --
      People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
    2. Re:Brouhaha. by bobbied · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, what Obama SAYS he's doing and what is ACTUALLY going to happen are likely to be totally different things.

      What this really was all about was poking the democratic base in the butts so they will vote next time around by making some grand promises about doing something to appeal to the emotion that "something has got to be done!" AND Poking the Republicans in the eye in an effort to discredit them for "not doing anything" about the "problem" of gun violence (and divert attention from the Obamacare repeal bill which is likely to hit his desk before spring) . It also has the added benefit of taking the spotlight off the Donald and the rest of the republican field, just as they where poised to start the battle royal over the nomination and put the spotlight back onto Obama.

      This was a purely political move. Political in it's timing, content and purely political in affect. It won't make a tinker's damn's difference in the death toll or anything else unless you count the way gun sales take off every time Obama starts talking about this topic.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    3. Re:Brouhaha. by msauve · · Score: 1

      In this case, the only official result I've found is a new (or revised) publication from the BATF. If what it contains is the full extent, then you're right, I have no complaint because there is no substantive change. If you're aware of any other authoritative reference on any resulting changes, please provide a citation.

      OTOH, Obama does have a history of unconstitutional overreach. Notably in delaying implementation (i.e. enforcement) of some sections of the health care bill he pushed. That was in direct violation of his oath and duty to uphold US law.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    4. Re:Brouhaha. by sims+2 · · Score: 1

      I would Prefer if they did require background checks at gun shows. Despite it being law since what 1998? Most people do not understand that there is no gun registry (At least not in OK & AR) and in many states it would be illegal to have such a registry.

      But still yet people think that they are registered and will buy guns at gunshows instead of in a gun store even if the guns are cheaper in the store across the street from the gun show because there is a lack of paperwork.

      --
      Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
    5. Re:Brouhaha. by msauve · · Score: 1

      "I would Prefer if they did require background checks at gun shows."

      There is no "gun show loophole," the laws/regulations already apply without regard to where the sale is made. Background checks are already required at gun shows, if the seller is in the business. But if some guy sells his dead father's Rem 742 deer rifle in a garage sale or at a gun show (where he's likely to get a better price), there's no background check.

      In fact, he couldn't run a background check even if he wanted to - you have to have a Federal Firearm License to do that. If Obama were to try and change things so all firearm sales/transfers had to go through FFLs, that would be an unconstitutional overreach. If a father wants to give his son a .22 on his 13th birthday, that's none of the government's business.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    6. Re:Brouhaha. by Straif · · Score: 1

      Firearm sales at gunshows require federal background checks the same as at gun stores. This has nothing to do with any gun registries.

      The only people who aren't required to do federal background checks are personal sales and you would have to look pretty far to find a personal seller (other than antique dealers) at a gunshow since registration costs would be much more than the few dollars you would get selling your handful of guns before the you would be considered a seller and therefore required to get licensed and do the background checks.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
    7. Re:Brouhaha. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I Had to go through a background check when I bought my pistol at a gun show. Same forms and questions as when I bought my rifle at a rifle shop. Maybe consider buying a gun in both situations before commenting on it ?

    8. Re:Brouhaha. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      OTOH, Obama does have a history of unconstitutional overreach. Notably in delaying implementation (i.e. enforcement) of some sections of the health care bill he pushed.

      Heller was a Supreme Court decision. The Supreme Court also had a decision on the ACA. But only the latter is "overreach" because you disagree with it.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    9. Re:Brouhaha. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      But if some guy sells his dead father's Rem 742 deer rifle in a garage sale or at a gun show (where he's likely to get a better price), there's no background check.

      So how does the guy selling his dead father's deer rifle differ legally from the dude making straw purchases for gangbangers on Chicago's West Side?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    10. Re:Brouhaha. by msauve · · Score: 1

      Not clear if you're a troll, ignorant or simply an idiot. Because, the Supremes never got involved in what I mentioned.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    11. Re:Brouhaha. by msauve · · Score: 1

      Well, since you don't know the difference between buy and sell, there's no way to explain it in terms you'd understand. But I'll give you a big hint: straw purchases are already illegal and the recent Executive action wasn't related to them in any way.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    12. Re:Brouhaha. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The whole point is contained in the continued use of the word "loophole". The use of "loophole" is designed to condition the public to the idea that anyone who does anything without the government being involved is somehow getting away with something. When people do peaceful things without government involvement, it's called "freedom".

      I seriously doubt that Obama is only emphasizing existing laws. This latest round of Obama's unconstitutional overreach hasn't even been fully publicized and analyzed yet and Obama has never been seriously opposed by the national political class on anything so he just keeps truckin' along, fucking up everything that he can, but always in a way that increases government power and weakens individuals.

    13. Re:Brouhaha. by tsotha · · Score: 1

      Actually, for 2A advocates like myself this isn't a bad thing. It doesn't actually do anything, and as such it just adds to the pile of failed gun control measures we can point to the next time the subject comes up.

      If Obama did actually manage to have an effect in this kind of legislation-by-fiat move, well, the next president can just roll it back the same way.

    14. Re:Brouhaha. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      So how does the guy selling his dead father's deer rifle differ legally from the dude making straw purchases for gangbangers on Chicago's West Side?

      Gangbangers are not smart enough to buy the hunting rifle, find a vantage point, and snipe their enemies. In my state, I still have to go through a gun dealer to sell my dead father's deer rifle, at least to a non-family member.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    15. Re:Brouhaha. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      In most States, gun show sales MUST be reported and have NICS checks. In California, for example, you cannot transfer any firearm without going through an FFL and a NICS check (even at a gun show). Some States don't have that restriction - and they also tend to have lower gun violence rates as well. I don't say one follows the other, but if you have very low gun violence rates - why implement a big list of gun sale restrictions?

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    16. Re:Brouhaha. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly right. This does nothing. I've been to gun shows and virtually every vendor there is a FFL. This does nothing except make the left happy and piss of the right. And then the President started wondering out loud how this became a partisan issue. Hmmm.....

    17. Re:Brouhaha. by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      The only people who aren't required to do federal background checks are personal sales and you would have to look pretty far to find a personal seller (other than antique dealers) at a gunshow since registration costs would be much more than the few dollars you would get selling your handful of guns before the you would be considered a seller and therefore required to get licensed and do the background checks.

      Ever been to a gun show? I have literally seen people walking around with a rifle slung over their shoulder with a sign sticking out of the barrel saying "For Sale".

      My concern is that I haven't seen any concrete definition of who is "in the business" of selling guns. Over the past 5 years I've sold roughly 5-6 guns through post I've made on a local gun swap and sell forum (the sales were made in person however). Does this make me "in the business"? To make it even more complicated, at least half of those sales were on the behalf of another party (my father-in-law who had a heart attack, lost his business, and had to downsize a lot of things). Does that make me a broker or dealer now?

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    18. Re:Brouhaha. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      In my state, I still have to go through a gun dealer to sell my dead father's deer rifle, at least to a non-family member.

      First world problem.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    19. Re:Brouhaha. by dwillden · · Score: 1

      A straw purchase is when a non-prohibited person purchases a firearm from a dealer, then turns and sells or gives the weapon to a prohibited person. Such is illegal because it attempts to circumvent the background checks. The guy selling his father's deer rifle is simply selling his rifle. He is under no obligation to do a background check, in fact in many states he has no ability to do so. He is not trying to avoid background checks. Not at all comparable to a straw purchase in any way.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    20. Re:Brouhaha. by dwillden · · Score: 1

      Depends on the state. In mine you can find several individuals with a rifle or a handgun they are carrying marked with a for sale flag. Those are private sales and are welcomed at the shows. But on an average day of a gun show such might account for 10 or 15 weapons total while the dealers with all the booth space have thousands of weapons available to sell (with a background check).

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    21. Re:Brouhaha. by dwillden · · Score: 1

      Actually only about 18 states require that for all sales. Most states don't have any rules pertaining to such so only licensed dealers are required to perform NICS checks. That is still the vast majority of the firearms sold at the shows, but gun show sales are not required to be reported in most states.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    22. Re:Brouhaha. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      In my state, I still have to go through a gun dealer to sell my dead father's deer rifle, at least to a non-family member.

      First world problem.

      I don't see it as a problem. Who sells guns anyway? I always thought you were just supposed to accrue them.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    23. Re:Brouhaha. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      A straw purchase is when a non-prohibited person purchases a firearm from a dealer, then turns and sells or gives the weapon to a prohibited person. Such is illegal because it attempts to circumvent the background checks.

      And selling a gun at a "gun show" is also an attempt to circumvent background checks.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    24. Re:Brouhaha. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There seems to be a very large misunderstanding about "no background checks" when buying at a "gun show". I expect most of the misinformation is due to ignorance, you can't expect anti-gun people to know much about something they fear and want to go away, but I suspect there is also some deliberate double-speak from anti-gun people that really do understand how things work. So I'll illustrate how it works, at least in my state, for any that care to learn rather than just believe.

      Are you buying from a dealer at a gun show, store, online? (doesn't really matter, the rules still apply)
      Have you taken the time to get a concealed carry permit/license?
      If yes, you do not need to get a background check. You may buy a handgun, show the card to the dealer who records the information, hands you the purchase.
      If no, you get to fill out the background check paperwork, and arrange to pick up the purchase several days later.

      Are you buying from an individual? (A responsible individual that is aware of the consequences of not following the rules.)
      CCL? If yes, record the info on a "bill of sale", "private transfer", whatever your state calls it. (I only do this with people I have known for many years.)
      No CCL? Go to a local dealer and for about $20 they will do the paperwork for you, and usually hold the item until the buyer has cleared the background check.

      The point is, none of this matters when you're talking about private sales between people that do not give a shit about the rules. It's not a "gun show loophole", it's a "stupid private seller" loophole. Dealers that are licensed and intend to stay licensed follow the rules. When a person that does not understand sees a transaction, but does not understand that the buyer gets it right now because the CCL card says "I'm responsible and have already passed the background check", said ignorant person tries to tell the world about this massive loophole problem that the government must do something about right now.

      It's all just nonsense. Go take the class, do the paperwork, get a CCL, and you too* can buy a handgun with no additional background check or waiting period. The assumption is, and it's really not hard to follow, if you have a CCL you already passed the background check and the "cooling off" waiting period is foolish because you already own one or more firearms anyway...
      (*your state may vary, in my state the CCL process is pretty slow and they may consider that the "cooling off" waiting period)

      None of this will do much to prevent criminals from anything anyway.

    25. Re:Brouhaha. by Orgasmatron · · Score: 1

      I'm probably wasting my keystrokes here, since you didn't bother reading the exact same information earlier in the thread but:

      If you have an obligation to do a background check, you are obligated to do it at a gun show too. If you are not obligated to do a background check, there is nothing to circumvent.

      --
      See that "Preview" button?
    26. Re:Brouhaha. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      How could it be otherwise? The President can't create new law, but can certainly put enforcement of individual existing laws at a higher priority.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    27. Re:Brouhaha. by Agripa · · Score: 1

      The part I find ironic is that in the recent past, the executive office has made efforts to *deny* federal firearms licenses to people if they did not meet qualifications like owning a store in an area which is zoned to allow for firearms sales. So simultaneously while denying licenses to individuals who want to follow the law by saying they are not in the business of selling firearms, they also want to make it unlawful for them to sell firearms even though they argued that they were not in the business of selling firearms which is why the license they sought was was denied. Heads they win, tails you lose.

      Clinton *bragged* about this policy since it reduced the number of gun dealers and Obama continued this processes of making it more difficult to get or hold a federal firearms license. The only result was more individuals risking a felony by selling firearms as a hobby and being forbidden by law to conduct background checks.

    28. Re:Brouhaha. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some States don't have that restriction - and they also tend to have lower gun violence rates as well.

      What if Bad People from the states with the restriction are traveling to states without it, then bringing guns (and gun violence) back to their own state?

      (Sorry for the AC post, I didn't want my mod points to go to waste.)

    29. Re:Brouhaha. by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      That's illegal. You cannot do that - it violates Federal Law.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    30. Re:Brouhaha. by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      It has long been the case that anyone who is "in the business" of selling guns (i.e. regularly for profit) must have a Federal Firearms License

      It's long been the case that "in the business" was a legal loophole. Like seriously even the right wing media have pointed out the ways people can get guns without going through a background check.

  12. how boy! 'muricans love giving money to gun makers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    more than going around the world, and shooting people.

    how are people surprised that america is, itself a violent place?

  13. license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The most controversial of the provisions requires licenses for those who sell guns at gun shows and on the internet, and forces background checks on buyers.

    Not true. Licenses are already required for those "engaged in the business of selling firearms" and background checks are required for those purchasing from said licensees and this executive action doesn't change that.

    1. Re:license by bobbied · · Score: 2

      The most controversial of the provisions requires licenses for those who sell guns at gun shows and on the internet, and forces background checks on buyers.

      Not true. Licenses are already required for those "engaged in the business of selling firearms" and background checks are required for those purchasing from said licensees and this executive action doesn't change that.

      No, but the treat is clearly that the Executive branch wishes to expand the definition of "being in business" to include a whole lot more than what it is understood to mean today. When pressed on this, Josh Earnest CLEARLY indicated that selling as few as ONE firearm, if conducted in some yet to be specified conditions, could make you a dealer in the eyes of the law. I don't know what those conditions are, but the threat is this could be onerous and if pressed in the courts found to be illegal.

      The problem here is, nobody knows exactly what the interpretation the administration is suggesting actually is yet how are they going to change enforcement? Which I think betrays Obama's actual play here. He knows that his "common sense reforms" are limited by existing law as interpreted by the courts. He also knows that he really cannot do what his supporter's really want. So he's left with doing something for "show" and trying to couch it in flowery terms, feel good photo ops and sound bites. This is political theater, pure and simple.

      This is about politics, not gun violence. It's a smoke and mirrors diversion designed to draw attention away from something. He's using the bully pulpit of the presidency for political purpose. So watch the news stories below the fold on the news papers. Something is going to happen..

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    2. Re:license by x0ra · · Score: 1

      don't matter, Obama is all about rewriting history...

    3. Re:license by tsotha · · Score: 1

      When pressed on this, Josh Earnest CLEARLY indicated that selling as few as ONE firearm, if conducted in some yet to be specified conditions, could make you a dealer in the eyes of the law.

      If they actually do that it will be tied up in court long after Obama is out of office. I still think it's all posturing for the Democratic base - at this point in his term, with the opposition party controlling both houses of Congress, these kinds of empty gestures are about as much as he can accomplish.

    4. Re:license by Undead+Waffle · · Score: 1

      I don't know that it's necessarily because of some specific incident happening so much as to affect the upcoming elections. But yes, it is definitely political. You notice how long it was drawn out? Days of headlines announcing that something is going to be announced. And when the announcement comes they still don't have all of the details.

    5. Re:license by dywolf · · Score: 1

      some states do require checks at gun shows, or for internet sales, or other instances outside of the normal place of business, ie gun store.
      however its not a national standard.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    6. Re:license by Calhune · · Score: 1

      No, but the treat is clearly that the Executive branch wishes to expand the definition of "being in business" to include a whole lot more than what it is understood to mean today. When pressed on this, Josh Earnest CLEARLY indicated that selling as few as ONE firearm, if conducted in some yet to be specified conditions, could make you a dealer in the eyes of the law. I don't know what those conditions are, but the threat is this could be onerous and if pressed in the courts found to be illegal.

      This is a good point. Obama is telling the DOJ to prioritize the prosecution of gun sellers they deem to be "in the business" and beefing up an ATF division to monitor online gun sellers who they deem should have an FFL. There is no change in the actual law concerning who is in the business of dealing firearms, but the threat of having to defend yourself in court is a substantial one due to the cost and potential penalties. This could turn out to have a beneficial affect if it ends up going to a court that will define an actual set of tests to determine who is in the business or not.

    7. Re:license by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Well the other good outcome is all the additional gun sales that are taking place right now... Every time Obama opens his mouth on this issue, gun and ammo sales reach new heights. It's pretty ironic if you ask me.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    8. Re:license by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Not true. Licenses are already required for those "engaged in the business of selling firearms" and background checks are required for those purchasing from said licensees and this executive action doesn't change that.

      The licenses are required but if they decide that you are not actually going to be in the "business of selling firearms", then they will not issue the license to you yet this does not protect you from being charged for selling firearms without the license which you sought and they denied.

  14. The unasked question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    And which of these changes would have prevented any single one of the mass shootings that O'bama cried crocodile tears for?

    The answer is obvious, of course, but that wouldn't fit the narrative required to achieve the true goal.

    1. Re:The unasked question by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      To make the bad guys in the caves in Afghanistan have a good laugh. Can you imagine the supreme commander of the most powerful army on Earth doing this?

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
  15. This is controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Really? Doing a background check is controversial? Crazy americans and their friggen guns, I swear... try to even limit access to gun from the crazies and you have the masses jump on your like a ravenous pack of hyenas.
    And then those crazies use the guns to to a mass shooting and the masses calls for better control... Seriously, you guys have like 1 mass shooting EVERY DAY. We have less than 5 a year in Canada and most of our crimes aren't even guns related unlike you redneck idiots.

    1. Re:This is controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Name the mass shooting for January 5, 2016, dickwad.

    2. Re:This is controversial? by bobbied · · Score: 2

      I'd like to point out that if you look at "Violent Deaths per Capita" the USA is pretty darned safe place, even with guns everywhere. In fact, Gun violence rates have been in steady DECLINE over the last decade or so...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    3. Re:This is controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There isn't a mass shooting every day. The site that likes to claim that isn't using the same methodology that the FBI and other law enforcement agencies around the world use for "mass shooting". It is pure propaganda.

    4. Re:This is controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yea... because you say it, it must be true...

      http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/194/total_number_of_gun_deaths

      not what this graph says

    5. Re:This is controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if you take Detroit, Chicago, Miami and Baltimore out of the stats the US stats are world class. It's very few pumping up the crime stats.

    6. Re:This is controversial? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      not what this graph says

      The claim was that gun violence is falling. Your chart describes gun deaths, which include suicide. It also does not fail to count those that would have been killed anyway by some other method, like people executed by cops.

      If you remove suicide, then gun violence is falling fairly consistently year-on-year, and you don't have the right to tell people that they have to live for your convenience. That's a form of slavery.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:This is controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      rates, not total deaths

    8. Re:This is controversial? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His words: "Violent Deaths per Capita"

      Your stat: "Total number of GUN deaths".

      Gun deaths would be included in violent deaths, but the reverse is not necessarily true and makes the statistics differ.

      Why do people get so worked up over gun deaths and demand all kinds of laws be passed to ban guns, but if the death was from a stabbing, beating, or vehicular homicide, they can remain calm and logical and talk about motives and underlying causes, instead of yelling for immediate bans on the tool used?

    9. Re:This is controversial? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Good to see that your Canadian smugness goes unchecked even in the face of actual facts.

      The President basically just said that he's directing law enforcement to actually enforce the laws that have been on the books since 1998. Without redefining who is "in the business" of selling guns to something prohibitively stupid, this was a press conference for the sake of having a press conference.

      Here's a little exercise for you: try to go to a gun show and buy a gun from anyone without getting a background check done. Unless you are buying from some guy who is liquidating an inherited collection at his first and last gun show, you're going to get checked.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  16. Another pointless inconvenience the legitimate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Smart gun technology" is sorta like DRM for guns. It absolutely will not work. People who steal guns with the intent of using them nefariously will just modify them to remove the offending mechanism. If the government should have learned anything by now, it's that those who really want a gun badly enough will get one and there's nothing they can do about it.

    1. Re:Another pointless inconvenience the legitimate by sims+2 · · Score: 0

      The only use for these is in a direct confrontation. If anyone expects this to work as some type of antitheft they are crazy. it's a gun there will be some way to bypass the safety but as long as it takes at least a few minutes and can't be done while you're being shot at. It should work fairly well at keeping you from getting shot with you own gun but that's about all it can do.

      Speaking of DRM why do we still have HDCP? It doesn't work and it's a PITA if you have an older tv.

      --
      Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
    2. Re:Another pointless inconvenience the legitimate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eh, I have a moderately fool proof way to keep myself from being shot by my firearm. A) I store it disassembled. B) I don't keep ammo in the house, nor is it loaded, C) I have a trigger lock.

      Of course I keep it for range shooting mostly and not for self defense, but that's another topic entirely.

  17. Executive orders? Like the NSA scandals? by Bruce66423 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The primary objection to this package is that it reveals how far the US Constitution has drifted from its moorings; there's no way this sort of decision should be being made by the President.

    1. Re:Executive orders? Like the NSA scandals? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      It won't... Be sure the courts will end up deciding this if Obama really intends to push his initiative beyond existing law.... Obama didn't change anything really, he just wants you to think he did.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    2. Re:Executive orders? Like the NSA scandals? by Mitreya · · Score: 1

      there's no way this sort of decision should be being made by the President.

      Indeed, quote below has my emphasis added

      Obama would devote $500 million more in federal funding to treating mental illness -- a move that could need congressional approval

      When did the President gain the ability to budget things directly without Congress? Same goes for investing money into other things in the TFA (additional background check staff for FBI, etc).

    3. Re:Executive orders? Like the NSA scandals? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 2nd Amendment has already been gutted and its meaning replaced. It was the heros' anti-tyranny amendment. It is now the cowards' anti-crime amendment. Ironically, it was gun owners' own misconceptions about the 2nd that persuaded the Supreme Court to alter its meaning. So the 2nd now goes the way of habeas corpus and due process, entirely undermining the Founders' intentions.

    4. Re:Executive orders? Like the NSA scandals? by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 1
      I particularly liked this quote:

      "The gun lobby may be holding Congress hostage right now, but they cannot hold America hostage," -POTUS

      No one individual is America, not even the President. For all its flaws, Congress is the elected representative of the American people.

    5. Re:Executive orders? Like the NSA scandals? by DogDude · · Score: 1

      The Second Amendment's militia clause has been ignored for a long time. This is nothing.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    6. Re:Executive orders? Like the NSA scandals? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gun control folks wouldn't like a modern interpretation that included that. That means the government can't restrict the ownership and carry of actual weapons of war by militia members. It also would likely put a hamper on private businesses barring firearms from their premises because the carriers would be sanctioned by state or nation and acting in official capacity. In fact some gun owners would welcome that interpretation; it wouldn't be too hard in most gun loving states to pass a law including all citizens over the age of 18 as members of the state militia permanently on call.

    7. Re:Executive orders? Like the NSA scandals? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Depends on how much discretion the law allows the President, I guess, and what money is budgeted for. If, under current legislation, he can divert half a billion into mental health care, it's legal already. If not, it would require congressional approval. In fact, half a billion is chump change if you're the US Government, and much more money is budgeted for assorted health care.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  18. Legislating from the oval office by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 2

    It's all bullshit. Those on the right hype it as an unconstitutional overreach. Obama hypes it as a significant change which will help close the "gun show loophole."

    I think you're missing the point.

    The point you're trying to make will be lost on just about everyone. He's not adding much (if anything), but it will be seen by people as "the president can make up new gun laws".

    The net result will be to set a precedent in the minds of most Americans that the president can make up whatever laws he wants when it applies to guns.

    1. Re:Legislating from the oval office by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Spot on. The left wing will be mollified because "look, the president made up new gun laws all by his widdle self!", and the right wing will be incensed because, "look, the president made up new gun laws all by his widdle self!".

      Obviously, this guy is a uniter, not a divider :) /sarc

    2. Re:Legislating from the oval office by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The net result will be to set a precedent in the minds of most Americans that the president can make up whatever laws he wants when it applies to guns.

      That, and it would have been a great time to buy Smith and Wesson stock. Lying politician decides to create the appearance of creating laws like a king? INSTANT overnight sales increases.

    3. Re:Legislating from the oval office by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eh, don't worry.

      Like Bush and Clinton and all the rest before him, as soon as the right gets in, the right will be all, "Aww yiss!" and the left will be screaming their little heads off. And vice versa when the next swap happens. And so on and so forth until our President is an El Presidente Supremo. We're well on our way, and it's about time - we only started this journey two hundred years or so ago.

      This shit is nothing new. Nobody cares. Nobody has ever cared, unless it stood a chance at getting them a vote by whining about it.

    4. Re:Legislating from the oval office by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      And the short term result will be another explosion in gun sales. One could make an argument that Obama is the best gun salesman in modern history due to all this nonsense.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  19. Don't be silly? by Bruce66423 · · Score: 1

    This is a game of 'something must be done, this is something'. I can show the voters that I'm achieving something. I'm doing anything that comes to hand to show it. The interesting question is what he's trying to hide by getting all the media focused on this.

    1. Re:Don't be silly? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Exactly.. I sure wish the Right's talking heads would just back down the rhetoric and start calling this what it is... Political theater. All flash, no substance, All Talk, zero action.. At least until there is some substance to fan the embers with, such as a real live documented policy change. So he's going to start enforcing the laws on the books? Great, it's about time he started actually doing HIS JOB after 7 years of bloviating over this issue.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    2. Re:Don't be silly? by bonehead · · Score: 1

      This is a game of 'something must be done, this is something'. I can show the voters that I'm achieving something.

      Exactly.

      The people in favor of this bullshit would find it perfectly reasonable to pour gasoline on their burning house simply because "I had to do SOMETHING!"

  20. Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why do so many Americans like guns so much? it's so bizarre.

    1. Re:Why? by turkeydance · · Score: 0

      well, it's not really guns...it's whatever Obama doesn't like.

    2. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why do so many Americans like guns so much? it's so bizarre.

      America is a violent country, a country born in violence, and continues to this day to perpetuate the "coolness" of violence. Possessing arms is just a "my dick is bigger than yours" contest type thing.

      Although all gun nuts cite the second amendment, what they don't understand is that this supreme court (as of 2015) has intepreted the amendment in a specific way (which is favorable to their views for now). Another supreme court in the future (with a different political composition) could decide to interpret the amendment in a way that makes gun control legit. It is all about legal interpretation. Legal documents are not like computer code. Unambiguous. They're not, and that's why when legislators enact laws the spirit of the law is as important as the letter of the law. The Constitution is like that, full of ambiguities.

    3. Re:Why? by PPH · · Score: 1

      this supreme court (as of 2015) has intepreted the amendment in a specific way (which is favorable to their views for now). Another supreme court in the future (with a different political composition) could decide to interpret the amendment in a way that makes gun control legit.

      Not as likely as you think. Supreme Courts are hesitant to reverse rulings of their predecessors.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    4. Re:Why? by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1
      Georgetown historian of Bill Clinton, Carroll Quigley concludes, from a historical study of weapons and political dynamics, that the characteristics of weapons are the main predictor of democracy. Democracy tends to emerge only when the best weapons available are easy for individuals to buy and use. This explains why democracy is so rare in human history.

      That might be one reason.

    5. Re:Why? by x0ra · · Score: 1

      It's not "gun" they like, it's Freedom and Liberty. Something that [modern] liberals hates.

    6. Re:Why? by Kohath · · Score: 1

      Why do some people like beer and others don't? Because people like different things. It would be bizarre if we all had the same preferences.

      Also, when you need a gun, there's usually no good substitute. When someone is trying to take away your guns, that's one of the times when you need them a lot.

    7. Re:Why? by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      The US founding letters and documents are clear on the issues the US will face.
      They lived under the tyranny of British occupation for years. All that taxation induced a fear of the UK returning one day.
      At any time the UN could give the UK the role of rebuilding, rehabilitating and caring for its crumbling former US possession.
      Free health care, government run prisons, MI5/6 and the GCHQ watching every move of the millions in the returned dominion, government works rebuilding local infrastructure, a massive new role for the The Colonial Office. Fully imported British Leyland cars.
      The Treasury restocked with US wealth owed for generations with interest.
      Extra letters, Darwinism and vowels been added to the national curriculum. The Church of England becoming the only real faith of advancement, privilege and the professional classes again. Deals done based on what university a person attended.
      So the US takes every aspect of its founding, rights and responsibilities very seriously.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    8. Re:Why? by tsotha · · Score: 1

      The idea the 2nd amendment isn't an individual right was dreamed up by leftist lawyers in the 1970s. No court with justices who are actually interested in following the constitution is ever going to overturn Heller. I guess if you pack it with Sotomayor types you could get it overturned. We'll pack it the other way if you do.

    9. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Golden rule in life: Historians, Journalists and Economists are for entertainment only, and not to be taken seriously.

    10. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All the fear of taxation ? - they were paying a lower rate of tax than the rest of the citizens in the uK. No it was the fear that their gun running , smuggling , land grabbing and abuse of the treaties with the natives and their HIGH profits from tea would have been stopped that caused all that kerfuffle in Boston.

    11. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and at the point where they declare guns illegal, people will ignore them and go about their business as always. If they attempt to confiscate the firearms, they will rapidly run out of personnel.

      Does no one read history anymore? Go read about General Gage and Boston. Our first revolution was fought over stuff like this.

    12. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      THIS!

    13. Re:Why? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The amendment isn't completely clear, and that well-regulated Militia clause has been argued over for a LONG time. Don't assume that your interpretation of the Constitution is the only one.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    14. Re:Why? by tsotha · · Score: 1

      My point was it hasn't been argued over for a long time. The arguing over started in the '70s, and even then it was considered a fringe view.

    15. Re:Why? by valnar · · Score: 1

      I liked guns way before Obama.

    16. Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you sir are an idiot

  21. Just look for the evil bit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Simple. Looking for the evil bit when firing is the perfect solution. Young child? No evil bit. Cleaning your own gun? No evil bit. Robber trying to kill you? Evil bit! The only problem is hunting or defending yourself against dangerous animals. Mama grizzly? No evil bit.

  22. Re:NOT far enough by bobbied · · Score: 1

    Any new gun law needs to be confiscatory, no exception. Nobody in the 21st century needs to own a gun.

    The 2nd needs to be repealed, and the police need to go door-to-door to round up all the guns.

    You have that BACKWARDS (in more ways than one)... Before you can go round up all those guns, you are going to have to repeal the 2nd amendment (Not to mention the 4th). Good luck on doing either of those.

    Until you manage to change the constitution and get the 2nd amendment repealed, folks will get to keep their guns. And until you repeal the 4th there will be no "door to door" searching to round up firearms by the police.

    So stop with this crazy idea that you can get some law passed that allows the police to confiscate all the weapons out there. It's not going to happen, not in your life time or mine. Try coming up with EFFECTIVE and LEGAL solutions and forget this confiscation idea because the courts won't let you..

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  23. Stigma needs to go away by TigerPlish · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's still a marked stigma associated with mental illness in the US. It has been eroding over many years now.

    The more the stigma erodes, the more people will seek treatment.

    It's not as easy as the vast majority of people think it is, seeking treatment. It's a very deliberate move. Akin to pulling the trigger when the sight's on something alive. That's how heavy making that first call is.

    Just sayin'. Chip away at that stigma, chip away at the violence.

    --
    The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
    1. Re:Stigma needs to go away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The more the stigma erodes, the more people will seek treatment.

      I remember a time when we didn't wait for crazy people to turn themselves in for being crazy. They got committed and put in a nice, warm place with three meals a day and a bed. Instead of sleeping in the park or under a freeway ramp. And when they checked in, they couldn't bring a gun with them.

      Perhaps its time to go back to that system.

    2. Re:Stigma needs to go away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's still a marked stigma associated with mental illness in the US. It has been eroding over many years now.

      The more the stigma erodes, the more people will seek treatment.

      It's not as easy as the vast majority of people think it is, seeking treatment. It's a very deliberate move. Akin to pulling the trigger when the sight's on something alive. That's how heavy making that first call is.

      Just sayin'. Chip away at that stigma, chip away at the violence.

      And what better way to make the stigma go away and encourage people to do something than to track it in a large database and start removing rights as soon as you do it?

    3. Re:Stigma needs to go away by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It's not as easy as the vast majority of people think it is, seeking treatment.

      Nor finding it, and having found it, affording it. We need to make free mental health care available for all, just like we need to do for health care. (Not insurance, care.)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Stigma needs to go away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bro, the treatment causes the illness. Telling you.

    5. Re:Stigma needs to go away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, because when you're delusionally paranoid, there's nothing you want more than to have society gang up on you to lock you away.

    6. Re:Stigma needs to go away by TigerPlish · · Score: 1

      "..there's someone in my head, but it's not me..."

      --
      The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
    7. Re:Stigma needs to go away by TigerPlish · · Score: 1

      Not all mentally ill people are crazy. Depression is a mental illness. Bi-polarism also. So's OCD.

      So.. you see where this is going? Who decides which patient gets ratted out to the feds?

      --
      The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
  24. Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by onkelonkel · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As someone who is not a citizen of the USA I have to ask, what do Americans think is the answer?
     
    How do you allow normal, not-crazy, law abiding citizens reasonable access to firearms and keep crazy people and criminals from getting them?
     
    As far as I can tell, the answer is - "You can't do both" and the mass shootings are therefor acceptable because they can't be avoided.

    --
    None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
    1. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly this point right here. Americans are crazy with their guns - you're not gonna defend yourself against the government who has bombs and you're not gonna defend yourself in the middle of the night when you have to unlock your weapon while someone is already robbing you - it's kind of a senseless thing to own - call 911... oh wait...

    2. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by mishehu · · Score: 1

      The best you can do is mitigate. Just like the best you can do against terrorists is mitigate as well. There will ALWAYS be somebody who murders and ALWAYS be somebody who attempts to terrorize. The difficulty is finding that spot where you don't infringe on normal, law abiding citizens rights while you're mitigating. And I'm putting my money on it that if "smart gun" tech becomes so ubiquitous as for LEO's themselves to use them, then it's only a matter of time where we get a situation where new guns are required to be only smart guns (similar to the post-1986 era rifles not being allowed to be fully automatic). The genie of the gun was let out of the bottle hundreds of years ago. There's no putting him back regardless of what laws are created.

    3. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by x0ra · · Score: 1

      maybe start by shrinking the size of the DOD/NSA/CIA and other 3 letters acronym.

    4. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by PPH · · Score: 1

      How do you allow normal, not-crazy, law abiding citizens reasonable access to firearms and keep crazy people and criminals from getting them?

      Good question. On the surface, background checks seem like a reasonable approach. But it turns out that they are just a foot in the door for gun registration. Very little effort is put into maintaining the blacklists of prohibited buyers. Most of the effort spent is on tracking who owns which gun.

      Theoretically, I should be able to walk into a gun show, have an electronic background check done and then buy whatever I want at that show without leaving a paper trail of my purchases. But my state has had an unofficial practice for years of storing all gun sales records and recently passed an initiative to retroactively make this legal.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    5. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

      Shootings by bad guys tend to last until the first good guy (cop, or not) with a gun arrives.

      More guns in responsible private hands in the U.S. results in fewer mass shootings with less victims.

      The bad guys will get (or make) guns if they want to. Even in prison. The technology is well understood by anyone who wants to learn it.

      So yeah, we'd like to limit mass (and other) shootings by increasing the number of people capable of stopping them. As it turns out, no increase in stricter gun laws is known to have resulted in a lower crime rate.

      What's amazing is that even though the Democratic process by which laws are passed in the U.S. is clearly not in favor of stricter gun laws, somehow a supposedly Democratic President refuses the "will of the people" and wants to do anything he can to unilaterally and potentially unconstitutionally (with the mental health stuff) circumvent it.

      If the issue is new laws need to be passed that clarify and fund enabling people who are an actual threat to others to have due process of law and have their rights taken away (including getting locked up in an institution, a process the folks with a D after their name destroyed about 30 years ago or so), then yeah, let's have that debate in Congress where it (and other new laws) are supposed to begin.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    6. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Izuzan · · Score: 1, Insightful

      How do you stop Criminals from getting guns ? That is the problem, All these gun laws just make it harder for law abiding people to obtain a firearm. It makes it no harder for a criminal to get them.

    7. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You put criminals who are violent and/or who have committed a crime with a firearm in a 8'x8'x4' cage, weld it shut, and they will not leave until they are dead. The only human interaction that they will have will be by snail mail. Automated systems will insure they have a reasonable supply of food pellets and water.

    8. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Kohath · · Score: 2

      Human problems don't generally have something that's "the answer". You can't just turn a person off and back on. All of the "solutions" are usually bad in some way.

      No one is even trying to avoid mass shootings. These gun restrictions don't work and everyone knows it. But playing the game brings in the political contributions.

      If the President wanted to help, he could try to have empathy for the half of America who didn't vote for him. He could try to compromise, meet people halfway, and solve some problems. Instead he mocks, grandstands, sends out the Federals after people who made mistakes or who oppose him politically, and defies the laws he is pledged to uphold.

      He's supposed to be the President of all Americans, not an internet troll. Unfortunately, Trump won't be much different in this regard. We need leaders who will try to bring people together.

    9. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's amazing is that even though the Democratic process by which laws are passed in the U.S. is clearly not in favor of stricter gun laws, somehow a supposedly Democratic President refuses the "will of the people" and wants to do anything he can to unilaterally and potentially unconstitutionally (with the mental health stuff) circumvent it.

      Something like 80% of the population supports stricter gun laws. It's the "Democratic process" that's been circumvented, primarily through gerrymandering of congressional districts by state legislatures. THAT's what should be unconstitutional.

    10. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who is not a citizen of the USA I have to ask, what do Americans think is the answer?

      Part of the problem is that people aren't asking the right question. This whole debate is actually a proxy war for a larger issue: resisting tyranny. Various reasons are given as to why people should "be allowed" to own guns, such as for hunting or self defense. Various reasons are given as to why people shouldn't have guns, such as school shootings and use in suicides. The truth is that tyrannical governments have killed more of their own people than all the school shootings and suicides-by-firearm combined.

      The United States constitution codified the ability for the people to resist this tyranny by means of arming themselves. Guns are the "great equalizer" between those with malintent and those who might otherwise be incapable of defending themselves. All other reasoning given is merely to deflect away from the underlying truth. We haven't had to resist tyranny from within since our last civil war, so there has been a stigma of paranoia associated with expressing this viewpoint. However, the eroding trust in institutions--and perhaps in each other--is now driving the push by both camps. A disarmed populace is easier to control, and those who don't wish to be controlled are trying to push back against the creeping intrusion. Neither of these sides trust those in the opposite camp, and for good reason. Unfortunately, it's trust that needs to be regained before this issue will ever be settled. If people trusted one another, and if the governed trusted those that govern, there would be little need for guns in the first place (save for hunting and all the ancillary reasons given for owning them).

      Actions recently exposed--such as spying on everyone in a way that helps enable a tyrant rather than protect against one--shows that the mistrust is well earned. I can't think of a rational reason why anyone would desire another civil war in the United States. The last two (the first being the breakaway from the British Empire) were brutal and bloody. But if it came down to having another one, it's still a fair fight, so long as the populace is armed. Your answer to the question "how do you allow law abiding citizens reasonable access and keep crazy people and criminals from getting them?" is correct. You can't do both. And by saying that criminals can't have them merely makes it easier for someone to simply declare everyone a criminal. And at that point you have another civil war.

      As an aside, the United States declared independence to escape what might be considered "The Rule of Man", and instead set up governance which relied on "The Rule of Law". However, that will only protect from oppression so long as the laws are fair and just. President Obama using executive action to bypass Congress is a good example of why people are weary and distrustful of concentrations of institutionalized power. Regulation has been increasingly used as a cudgel to impose restrictions on liberty outside the process outlined in the Constitution. It's also indirectly why Congress' approval ratings are so low. You could fire all of them tomorrow and nothing will change because the structure and framework exists independently of the people who supposedly make the decisions. The rules and regulations make the decisions for them.

      In my opinion, restoring trust and liberty--or imposing tyranny and control--are the only two solutions to the problem. I would prefer the former.

      Full disclosure: I don't own a gun and likely never will (because of a history of depression), but I do support others to own them for the above reasons.

    11. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >As far as I can tell, the answer is - "You can't do both" and the mass shootings are therefor acceptable because they can't be avoided.

      Yes, that's correct. We can't stop the cultists from attracting impressionable people, but we still allow them to speak. We don't consider banning the right to practice religion even when religious extremists are perpetrating terror attacks. Why? Because we'd rather live in a world where we're free rather than in a police state in which we're perfectly safe.

      Hell, we don't even consider banning cars, or increasing licensing restrictions for cars, or limiting the kinds of cars that can be sold in response to the tremendous number of deaths caused by traffic collisions. And cars aren't even a guaranteed constitutional right!

      So why should guns, responsible for a tiny number of deaths per year and guaranteed in the constitution, be singled out? It makes no sense to concentrate on guns. This insistence that "something" must be done is retarded. No one has a good idea to stop gun deaths, but we must absolutely do "something, anything at all, no matter how insane!" to stop gun deaths. It's ridiculous.

    12. Re: Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps you should look into what the reasoning is behind so many crazy people ? An economy in the shitter perhaps ? Non-stop wars ? Income inequality ? Corruption in all levels of government ?

      Do I really need to go on ?

    13. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You see, a true patroitic American would prefer the dangerous gun violence to the complete safety without freedoms.

    14. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Death is acceptable because it can't be avoided. War is acceptable because it can't be avoided. Advertisements are acceptable because they can't be avoided. Emails from Nigerian Princes are acceptable because they can't be avoided. Donald Trump is acceptable because he can't be avoided. Wheeeee... this if fun!!!

      There are a third of a billion people in the U.S. The number of people killed in mass shootings is miniscule compared to that and compared to the political violence that usually is associated with such a large number of people, but which doesn't exist in the U.S. As to the murders committed with firearms in the U.S., the overwhelming majority of them are committed by street gangs and other thugs killing one another. Most Americans live very, very safe lives even in communities that are saturated with firearms. The real problems with shootings in the U.S. are caused by the government handout programs that have created dysfunctional communities and by immigration policies that have imported a huge number of murderous Latin American criminals. And now Obama is using ICE resources to distribute and inject unvetted legal and illegal immigrants from Latin America and from the Middle East directly into many of the most peaceful and highly functional suburbs throughout the U.S. - thanks, Obama!

    15. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given the cowards in Texas, they will run away even when armed until an actual officer arrives to save them. Lets leave it to those trained for once. Civilians are mostly blow hard coward ammosexuals. The police are best suited.

    16. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      As someone who is not a citizen of the USA I have to ask, what do Americans think is the answer?

      Honestly? End the drug war on all drugs and repurpose that money into non-discriminatory mental health services. Currently our civilians are being consumed in a proxy war between the police and the cartels.

      After that? I'd start with a massive effort to reform our police forces. Currently there is a massive divide (real or perceived) between our police and the people. We have given a great deal of discretion to police officers but the oversight that should accompany that discretion is practically non-existent. Until we can get our urban areas behaving more like communities rather than a bunch of people living in close proximity I don't see us making any headway. Eliminate the profit motives from our governments who use the police forces as a tax collection service and revenue generation tool (fines, asset forfeiture, etc create perverse incentives)

      So in short: End the drug war, reform our police force into a community force.

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    17. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since you aren't in the US, why not worry about the problems in your country.

      Fact is that there really isn't a problem with guns in the US. The media sensationalizes it and makes it sound like a worsening problem (it isn't), as it advances their nefarious agenda.

    18. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Yeah, except that directly goes against the Bill of Rights. And, the 'deterrence' factor of extreme punishment has never been shown to be worth a hill of beans, because someone who is looking to murder isn't thinking rationally about it. There is only a few possibilities: they think they won't get caught, therefore the punishment doesn't matter; they aren't thinking at all because they are acting on pure emotion, therefore the punishment doesn't have a deterrent effect; or they are involved in organized crime / gang violence where the consequences for NOT doing it is far less dainty and civilized than anything the government will do, and far more rapid.

      This is why capital punishment has had almost no effect on lowering crime rates.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    19. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, leaders who actually would compromise and attempt to solve the issues get shouted down in the primary process. Due to the hard-lean necessary to get the nomination, the candidate will ultimately be unpalatable to the moderates and independents. See: Mitt Romney. Actually fairly moderate, but had to eat every right-wing quote during the general election that came out of his mouth during the primaries in order to get the nomination over some of the real nutbags.

      Until something drastic changes, I'm afraid it's all partisan hackery from here out.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    20. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

      Something like 80% of the population supports stricter gun laws

      You're apparently stuck in a left-wing bubble somewhere. Even right after a mass shooting, a majority of the population opposes stricter gun control laws.
      Here's the first reference I found in Google from CNN. Care to cite your 80% number study?

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    21. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by dyslexicbunny · · Score: 1

      Honestly, I'm willing to bet that a large number of gun fatalities in the country (neglecting the 2/3 that are suicides - which will require serious efforts in mental health but likely aren't entirely preventable) are through gang related drug violence. And I say bet because there's no easy means to study the data as the NRA got Republicans to deny the CDC sufficient funding.

      Legalizing marijuana would likely alleviate some of the gang violence as one element of the black market is hurt. With this being available, we might see reduction in demand for other drugs as well. This will also lower the amount of mass shootings in some places based on how bookkeeping is done.

      I don't think there's any serious way of stopping someone(s) from doing harm to people if they are properly motivated. Car, improvised explosives, knive/machete, etc. I suppose the body counts may be lower but that doesn't stop the existence of violence out of the blue.

      I will contend that having grown up in the country where guns are commonplace, there is a lot less violence compared to major cities. I think that if we are able to find the means to improve the quality of life of people, the level of violent crime may also be reduced. I've never read about rich people mugging or carjacking people (of course it is more likely done through other non-violent means). But no one seems to have a solution on how to fix poverty. Currently American social programs encourage some people to have more kids they neglect and companies (alleged job creators) aren't creating many well paying blue collar jobs.

    22. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It puzzles me that some people are so against gun registration. They seem to think that having a government record of the guns they own will result in confiscation or some such thing, which is flat-out unconstitutional.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    23. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The President has been trying to compromise with Republicans, but in the current bitter rivalry between the parties, that's not easy, particularly if Republicans decide to block all his initiatives on the grounds that they're his. He has been accomplishing things, like the ACA, reducing the deficit, getting Iran to stop working on nukes without having to fight a war.

      How many prominent politicians do you know who don't grandstand? Presidents who scrupulously obey the law? (Maybe Carter.) Obama's doing nothing out of the ordinary there.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    24. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Mass shootings are such a small part of gun violence that making policy based on them is asinine. "Assault weapons" are the same way in being used for so few homicides. Most people who are shot get shot by a handgun and it is worth noting that the original National Firearms Act of 1934 which regulates machine guns, short shotguns, and other weapons included all handguns in its list of regulated weapons.

      It is not mass shootings or firearms related violence which is acceptable in the US; it is violence in general. We have similarly high rates of violence involving knives and blunt instruments so unless those are somehow caused by lack firearm laws, the wrong problem is being considered.

    25. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by PPH · · Score: 1

      which is flat-out unconstitutional.

      The Constitution is a mere impediment to the current administration's agendas. So I'd rather they not have a list.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    26. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      The President has been trying to compromise with Republicans, but in the current bitter rivalry between the parties, that's not easy, particularly if Republicans decide to block all his initiatives on the grounds that they're his

      He didn't make it easy by pretty much giving Republicans the big middle finger for the first 2 years of his presidency. Cramming partisan Obamacare down the throats of the country against the will of the people and of the Republicans pretty much alienated them for the full term of his presidency.

      Presidents who scrupulously obey the law? (Maybe Carter.) Obama's doing nothing out of the ordinary there.

      I disagree. The use of executive fiat here seems far more excessive. For instance, many presidents (and Congresses) wanted to close the "gun show loophole": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      "Federal "Gun show loophole" bills were introduced in seven consecutive Congresses: two in 2001,[11][12] two in 2004,[13][14] one in 2005,[15] one in 2007,[16] two in 2009,[17][18] two in 2011,[19][20] and one in 2013.[21] Specifically, seven gun show loophole bills were introduced in the U.S. House and four in the Senate between 2001 and 2013. None passed"

      "During his campaign and presidency, President George W. Bush endorsed the idea of background checks at gun shows. Bush's position was that the gun show loophole should be closed by federal legislation since the gun show loophole was created by previous federal legislation."

      Basically, the gist of it is that presidents to date didn't heavily bypass the legislature to the extent Obama appears to be. They wanted legislation passed through all branches of the government, via the democratic process, rather than just declaring it so through the use of executive power.

    27. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It puzzles me that some people are so against gun registration. They seem to think that having a government record of the guns they own will result in confiscation or some such thing, which is flat-out unconstitutional.

      The power to run a gun registry isn't enumerated in the Constitution, so is it a stretch that one unconstitutional act would follow another?

      What good could even come from a gun registry, anyway?

    28. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even the most restrictive authoritarian police states in history didn't manage to keep (fire)arms from criminals.

      Hence keeping the only thing that keeping firearms from not-crazy, law abiding citizins achieves is guaranteeing that the armed criminals will have unarmed victims

    29. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Ah, so he doesn't accomplish anything because you dislike anything he accomplishes and project your attitude on the rest of the country, so you discount it. Got it. I take it that the people of the US wanted the deficit maintained at its level when Obama took office, because he's reduced it a lot.

      Obama can't change the law. If he oversteps, the NRA will find really good lawyers for people who didn't actually violate it, and Obama would lose. He's using his authority to prioritize what parts of the law to enforce. Anything to the contrary is grandstanding.

      Again, Obama can't declare anything with his executive power that hasn't been allowed by Congress. The judiciary will slap him down if he tries. The Supremes still have a Republican-appointed majority.

      Also, the "gun show exemption" is small potatoes. The reason you can't buy a modern military rifle at a gun store is legislation passed in 1986, and I consider that a clear violation of the Second Amendment.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    30. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      And you think other recent Presidents stood firmly on it?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    31. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      What good could come from a gun registry? For example, if a gun was recovered that was used in a crime, it would be valuable to be able to find the last legal owner of the gun, and ask that owner questions. (I assure you that, if my car were used in a felony, and I hadn't reported it stolen, the police would be thoroughly investigating me.)

      It might be useful in settling disputed ownership cases, also, but that's minor.

      What harm could come from it? We've been registering automobiles and bicycles for a long time, and nobody's come to confiscate them.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    32. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by PPH · · Score: 1

      Nope. I don't want the Republicans tracking my porn or the Democrats tracking my guns and money.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    33. Re:Looking for ideas - what's the answer? by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      Ah, so he doesn't accomplish anything because you dislike anything he accomplishes and project your attitude on the rest of the country, so you discount it.

      I said nothing of the sort. I said he (and congressional Democrats) forced through partisan legislation that had no support from the other side, nor did they even have a majority of Americans that supported it. Their "accomplishment" was an asserting of their will on the rest of the country. Regardless of what side you're on politically, or whether you believe their unilateral decision to force governance was good or bad, those are the facts.

      I take it that the people of the US wanted the deficit maintained at its level when Obama took office, because he's reduced it a lot.

      Not true (http://www.davemanuel.com/history-of-deficits-and-surpluses-in-the-united-states.php). In every year of Obama's presidency, the deficit has been higher than his predecessor. The record levels came in 2009 when Obama went on a spending spree w/ the Stimulus bill (which was equivalent to about ~800 billion in spending).

      Again, Obama can't declare anything with his executive power that hasn't been allowed by Congress. The judiciary will slap him down if he tries

      This is true, and they have on certain things, such as EPA regs. It's also irrelevant. Your point was that he hasn't done anything presidents haven't done regularly in the past. THAT is the false statement. Legal or not, he's using executive power in a manner that previous presidents largely avoided because they deferred to the will of the legislature, and the people. Obama have shown he has no issue with forcing whatever he believes to be "best for America" on everybody, regardless of the will of the people or the Congress. Rather than finding compromise with the legislation, he's scrounged for every shred of power he can find within the Executive branch to bypass them. That entire mindset is not "business as usual" for previous presidents.

      Also, the "gun show exemption" is small potatoes.

      Again, the legislation is not what's relevant. The point is to show a difference between use of executive power by this president and past presidents, something you claim is not out of the ordinary. If you weren't so quick to jump to some ideological battle over whether his actions are "right" or "legal", you'd see that what he's doing is unprecedented/uncommon, whether you agree with the actions or not. Polls appear to agree (http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/07/politics/poll-obama-gun-action/index.html), generally supportive of the action, but skeptical of the method through which it was accomplished.

  25. Re:NOT far enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Enjoy smashing into all of those white tailed deer with your car when the hunters aren't managing their numbers....

  26. Passing more laws won't change criminals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... because criminals never follow the laws anyway.

    1. Re:Passing more laws won't change criminals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... because criminals never follow the laws anyway.

      Most mass shootings are done by normal people that [b]legally possess firearems[/b] until the moment they kill someone.

    2. Re:Passing more laws won't change criminals... by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      No, mass shootings are done by people who are crazy, psychotic, or religiously deranged long before they ever pull the trigger.

      Just because you haven't pulled a trigger yet, doesn't mean you're "normal" when you insist on the death penalty for drawing mohammed, or demand that abortion doctors be killed.

      That all being said, "mass shootings" are terribly rare - we should be more concerned about the "non-mass shootings" that are overwhelmingly done by criminals with illegal firearms.

    3. Re:Passing more laws won't change criminals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's the problem. I'm an engineer, I'm familiar with statistics and how to interpret them and how to manipulate them, and as such, how they tend to be manipulated. I also ride motorcycles. I'm far more terrified by jackasses using their cellphones while driving than firearms. I'm somewhere in the order of 20 times as likely to be killed by a jackass with a cellphone than by a firearm.

      How about this. If we really wanted to do something to save lives, we treat operating a cell phone while driving identically to DUI?

    4. Re:Passing more laws won't change criminals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how about we put motorcyclist on suicide watch, not everyone elses fault you want to do 180 on a bike during rush hour like all you assholes do

    5. Re:Passing more laws won't change criminals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That all being said, "mass shootings" are terribly rare - we should be more concerned about the "non-mass shootings" that are overwhelmingly done by criminals with illegal firearms.

      Exactly. But the approach of giving the mentally ill a prescription (which may actually make them worse - see ssristories.org ) and letting them loose w/o much monitoring needs to change.

    6. Re: Passing more laws won't change criminals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Define "normal".

      Our government consists of elected idiots who think it's ok to go bomb the shit oyt of or invade some country for crazy reasons.

      If THEY are considered normal, then the rest of us have nothing to worry about.

    7. Re:Passing more laws won't change criminals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Terribly rare?

      http://www.shootingtracker.com/wiki/File:2015_Mass_Shootings.jpg

    8. Re:Passing more laws won't change criminals... by lowkeyknight · · Score: 1

      "That all being said, "mass shootings" are terribly rare" Sorry What? Rare? They are near Daily! Rare compared to what country exactly? http://www.theguardian.com/us-... Because in Britain and Australia, where they got rid of the guns. Mass Shootings = Zero.

    9. Re:Passing more laws won't change criminals... by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because every single motorcycle rider drives 180 in traffic. All of them.

      Who's the asshole again?

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    10. Re:Passing more laws won't change criminals... by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Tell me, what mass shooting happened on January 6, 2016?

      And for Australia, can you tell me how fast the rape rate increased after women were disarmed?

      Bueller? Bueller?

  27. A License to Sell Firearms? by KermodeBear · · Score: 1

    You mean like an FFL, a Federal Firearms License?

    Tell me more about your novel ideas.

    --
    Love sees no species.
    1. Re:A License to Sell Firearms? by Ksevio · · Score: 1

      It's novel because while such a license exists, small sellers haven't been given them because they don't sell enough guns.

    2. Re:A License to Sell Firearms? by dywolf · · Score: 1

      A requirement almost totally ignored by individuals who only sell online or at gun shows, not operating under business license or without a store front, yet clearly in the business of selling guns.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  28. The argument is over by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    Its over. Guns are out there. Accept it. The notion of "but if the guns weren't there" is meaningless. They're there. They're not going away.

    Come up with a different idea... if you're able... and if not... maybe you're not an "idea person" and should just be quiet.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    1. Re:The argument is over by bonehead · · Score: 1

      How about this idea?

      Face reality. The world is not a safe place, and cannot ever be. It was dangerous long before humans walked the Earth, and will continue to be dangerous long after we're gone.

      If somebody really wants to be safe, then they should probably go commit some horrendous crime. An isolation cell in a supermax prison is pretty much the safest place I can think of.

      But even there, if some psychotic asshole with resources and motivation wants you dead, he could make it happen.

    2. Re:The argument is over by speederaser · · Score: 1

      Guns are out there. Accept it. The notion of "but if the guns weren't there" is meaningless. They're there. They're not going away.

      In the short term, yes. In the long term they are definitely going away, if you look down the road far enough. The mechanism of gun ownership demise won't be political though. It will be accomplished via evolution.

      Having a gun in your home significantly increases your risk of death â" and that of your spouse and children.

      And it doesnâ(TM)t matter how the guns are stored or what type or how many guns you own.

      If you have a gun, everybody in your home is more likely than your non-gun-owning neighbors and their families to die in a gun-related accident, suicide or homicide.

      Ergo, people who own guns are gradually removing themselves from the gene pool.

      The General Social Survey (GSS), conducted roughly every two years by the independent research organization NORC at the University of Chicago, with principal funding from the National Science Foundation, provides a widely-used look at the rate of gun ownership over time. The GSS data show a substantial decline in the shares of both households and individuals with guns.

    3. Re:The argument is over by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your bs statistics are ridiculous. I have seen a lot of ignorant posts on Slashdot. This might be the ignorant one ever(and that's saying a lot). If you really think guns are going away any time soon or in the future please do the world a favor and not EVER pro-create.

    4. Re:The argument is over by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      If that argument had any validity then people with guns wouldn't rule the world.

      They do... also the statistics on gun deaths are much like the statistics on cars. Are people with cars taking themselves out of the gene pool?

      But you know what... I'm very happy to leave that be and let reality prove one of us right and one of us wrong.

      We'll pick this discussion up on 1000 years and go over the data then... till then. :D

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    5. Re:The argument is over by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      It is even more ironic that the people pushing for the most disarming of the population in general either tend to have concealed carry licenses or squads of armed and trained killers protecting them.

      The argument in full context is not that guns are bad but that PEASANTS shouldn't be allowed to have them.

      And on that point, I actually agree. Peasants shouldn't be armed. They're too stupid to be trusted with any power of any kind what so ever.

      I would argue about who is and is not a peasant. A good way to tell is to see if a given person wants to be independent, take care of their own problems, and values their own liberty etc over comfort... anyone like that... is a peasant. And I'm very happy to give them as much security as they want and lack of responsibilities. Cradle to grave welfare... no guns... and the nobility will take care of them. They however give up any right to vote on anything, must obey any rule their betters impose without question, and basically just go through the rest of their lives doing what they're told.

      Quiet a few peasants will get upset when they are told they can't eat their cake and have it too... but this is a typical peasant complaint and is to be ignored. Anyone with more than two brain cells knows that isn't possible and that isn't how things work. Peasants don't understand these things because they're ignorant semi animals. And that's merely the nature of things.

      Some might be sitting here after that statement and be saying "but I don't approve of people being treated that way". And I'd agree only you can't stop it from happening. Some people are basically hardwired to be ruled. And they're going to be ruled by someone... and when that someone rules them they're going to use their waves of cannon fodder to throw you into the same cattle car. I'd personally prefer to not join those morons. They were told. My responsibility is discharged as of that. Beyond that, my objective is not to meet the same fate. And that means getting out of the way of the inevitable.

      The equilibrium state of humanity at large is tyranny, slavery, and oppression. Its where it always goes because too many people are programmed to seek the warm embrace of a Dear Leader. If the dear leaders want their birthrights of hordes of peasants to give them the all the time blowjobs... I'm not going to stop them. I do not care. If that's where things are going then I'm going to side step the whole mess or worst case find some place in that order that involves me getting shat on as little as possible. We do what we can.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    6. Re:The argument is over by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that argument had any validity then people with guns wouldn't rule the world.

      They don't. People who can tell people with guns what to do rule the world.

      They do... also the statistics on gun deaths are much like the statistics on cars. Are people with cars taking themselves out of the gene pool?

      Some are, but no, the statistics on cars? The average American may see hundreds or thousands of cars in usage in a day.

      How many see even one gun being used in a week?

  29. Forget the "smart" safety by TigerPlish · · Score: 1

    What we'll end up with is a plastic projectile able to change course mid-flight, in rifle caliber.. maybe even in pistol.

    *sigh* and then the old-schoolers will bitch and retch that these newfangled 'lectronic steerable plastic bullits are nowhere near as elegant as the JHPs of the past, guided by the eyeball and the rifled barrel.

    There's no winning!

    --
    The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
    1. Re:Forget the "smart" safety by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everybody seems to have missed the small portion of Obama's speech which provided rare (and I'd say unintended) insight into the actual agenda of a large subset of the Democratic Party: elimination of civilian firearms ownership. Under Bill Clinton, AG Janet Reno explicitly and unambiguously stated that eliminating private ownership of firearms was the end game (during a Good Morning America interview in 1993). Today's Democrats are smart enough not to discuss that openly anymore, with few exceptions like Senator Feinstein, who has no chance of being deposed.

      The portion of Obama's speech which covered "smart gun" technology compared it to fingerprint readers on an iPhone, as one example of an implementation. That wasn't the unintentionally revealing part. The next "smart gun" idea example he mentioned was the ability to trace a stolen gun just like a stolen iPhone. Sounds OK on the surface, right, but how would that work, exactly? An operational iPhone is in constant contact with a cellular provider, so there is an obvious means to track it, at least while there is battery power and no blocking of signal. Of course, such connectivity is intrinsic to any cellular phone. Even a laptop or tablet with LoJack or a similar technology cannot be traced until it is connected to some network, but that is a fundamental feature of such devices. We could also imagine other possibilities such as some very strong Bluetooth Beacon technology to allow tracing stolen iPnones, laptops, tablets, and so on.

      Therefore, we can reasonably determine the salient features of such technology. We can safely assume that the ability to remotely trace firearms must include one or more features such that there is mandatory connectivity or beacon broadcasting. Naturally, it would need to be tamper resistant, else it would be rendered moot. In particular, defeating the facility by simply depriving it of power cannot be allowable, so the operation of the firearms must necessarily hinge on the ability to connect/broadcast. Ideally (from the perspective of those supportive of the concept), it should be possible to retrofit the tech onto existing firearms, or perhaps a mandatory exchange program could be implemented (VP Biden has already asserted that a mandatory buy-back would be constitutional, so surely a mandatory exchange would be viewed as permissible).

      Given all that, nearly every legal firearm in the nation would be traceable as an "unintended side effect". In many situations, their legal owners' movements (at least while bearing arms) would also be traceable, and presumably loggable. Once such a regime is in place, the wet dream of the Democrats - a national gun registry - is largely accomplished without the need of the registry itself. Get this in place, wait a decade or so, then move ahead with confiscation via whatever means necessary - gun buyback, door-to-door searches, whatever. Holdouts will be few, because the "anti-theft" system will still know where all the firearms were (no, citizen, that wasn't a registry, just quality of service records) just before the final solution is implemented. Hooray, a disarmed populace!

      They're playing the long game. Make no mistake about it.

      - T

  30. But will it work by Bruce66423 · · Score: 1

    Given that there is zero or negative correlation between gun laws' strictness and the number of gun related crimes, the claim that gun restrictions are worth doing needs to be questioned. Whilst the UK - where there are virtually no guns - is held up as THE alternative, the idea that you can actually get there is silly, and the present situation is appalling. But given that Chicago sees far more gun crime with far stricter laws than Texas cities, there is an issue to consider.

    1. Re:But will it work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Consider NYC and it's crazy gun laws... pretty safe for a major city.

      As much as I don't agree with violation of personal liberties, the stop-and-frisk policy and minimum sentencing guidelines got folks-who-carry-guns off NYC streets.... yes, it's crazy, but it seems to have worked! (either gang members stopped carrying guns, or ones who did ended up in prison... a win-win).

      This smart-gun thing will never work----guns are stupid devices that just work with the minimum of maintenance. It's like creating smart knives... that only cut when held by the good guys.

    2. Re:But will it work by DogDude · · Score: 1

      Given that there is zero or negative correlation between gun laws' strictness and the number of gun related crimes

      That's a lie. Countries with strict gun laws have many, many fewer gun deaths than the US.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    3. Re:But will it work by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Baltimore, DC, Chicago, and NYC all have extremely strict gun laws - and all see rising gun murder rates as well. It's not the presence or absence of guns that's the issue - it's the culture of the city.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    4. Re:But will it work by Bruce66423 · · Score: 1

      Whoops - my bad. I was commenting on the experience WITHIN the US, which provides a particular set of test tubes for allowing us to record the hypothesis. The international comparison is of course valid - but given that the level of gun ownership of the UK is never going to happen in the US without a revolution, it is actually irrelevant. The test is: do gun laws in the US improve things locally as far as the criminal use of guns is concerned. That's the correlation I'm looking at; at a far distant point on the graph the correlation may reverse. But the US is nowhere near that point. I apologise for not making that clear.

    5. Re:But will it work by DogDude · · Score: 1

      I was commenting on the experience WITHIN the US, which provides a particular set of test tubes for allowing us to record the hypothesis.

      Not really. You can just carry or drive any number of guns from a pro gun state to a non-gun state. We have a tremendous number of guns in our country, altogether. That's why we have such tremendous gun violence. People point to Chicago where there are tight gun laws, but lots of gun violence, but it's trivial to get a gun elsewhere, and shoot people with it in Chicago. In countries with fewer guns, there's less gun violence. In countries with more, there's more.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    6. Re:But will it work by Bruce66423 · · Score: 1

      Whoops - still not clear. The fact that you can move guns around so easily may be the reason why gun laws have had no appreciable effect on the level of gun crime in the US, whereas their virtual absence in other countries makes comparisons problematic. The questions are: (1) Does Chicago or Illinois - for example - tightening their gun control legislation make a difference for them (2) Will changes in federal gun laws make a difference. The answer to both questions, in the prevailing climate, appears to be 'no'. The very aggressive challenge of the NRA is that the laws in Chicago enable criminals to attack with no serious prospect of being shot at in return, whereas the carrying rules of Texas make this scenario far less likely.

    7. Re:But will it work by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I'd say it has to do with how easy it is to get a gun. In a city with few guns available, many criminals will get one from elsewhere, legally or illegally. In a country with few guns available, criminals will find it harder to get them. To oversimplify, more criminals with guns probably causes more gun murders.

      In the US, one source of guns for criminals is stolen weapons, since they're profitable to sell. Countries with few guns will have fewer stolen guns.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    8. Re:But will it work by Magius_AR · · Score: 1

      Not really. You can just carry or drive any number of guns from a pro gun state to a non-gun state. We have a tremendous number of guns in our country, altogether. That's why we have such tremendous gun violence. People point to Chicago where there are tight gun laws, but lots of gun violence, but it's trivial to get a gun elsewhere, and shoot people with it in Chicago. In countries with fewer guns, there's less gun violence. In countries with more, there's more.

      That seems to be a short-sighted argument. Same argument taken to its conclusion: even if you banned all guns in the country, its trivial to get a gun in another country and use it here.

      The other side of your argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny either. The Swiss have a very large number of guns per capita. Gun education, culture, and population density is the differentiator more than anything. That's why all the cities boast all the high gun crime statistics, typically in gang or impoverished areas.

      Other prominent countries in the top 15 guns per capita (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country): Switzerland, Saudi Arabia, Sweden, Norway, France, Canada, Austria, Iceland, Germany, Finland. Compare that list to firearm-related death (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate) and there's no correlation. The US is a big outlier, and it's not based on volume of guns. Honduras (most of South America actually) has a metric $%$-ton of gun violence, despite ranking #87 in guns per capita.

    9. Re:But will it work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I call (heaping, steaming) bullshit on this one.

      It's super easy to see that the country in the world that has the most lax gun restrictions and highest availability also has the highest incidents of fuck-ups using guns to do bad shit.

      Doesn't everyone see this?

    10. Re:But will it work by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      So it's the availability of guns, not the crime-celebrating culture that is to blame. Got it...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  31. Molon labe by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

    Self defense.

    When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

    1. Re:Molon labe by x0ra · · Score: 1

      Why ? The petty thug trying to break in your home is a victime of white privilege. You should let him beat you to death and rape your underage daughter...

    2. Re:Molon labe by bonehead · · Score: 1

      And if you disagree, you're a racist and a bigot!

    3. Re:Molon labe by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Self defense.

      When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

      Wow, I wish I lived in a Bruce Willis movie too.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  32. Chuck Heston by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Gone so long now that they are taking the gun out of his cold dead hand.

    Does anyone know what goes on behind closed doors?

  33. Arm the first responders... by hsthompson69 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...who in this case, are law abiding civilians.

    You can't possibly stop crazy people from getting weapons - be it butter knives, glocks, or automobiles. What you can do is give innocent, law abiding civilians the opportunity to defend themselves in case of an emergency, while they wait for the swat team to arrive.

    This kind of setup won't stop jihadis or the mentally ill from attacking in the first place, but it will limit the damage they can do. Normal criminals, on the other hand, will likely adjust their behavior to non-confrontational types of property crime, than robberies, rapes, etc, as they adjust to the new risk/reward ratio.

    Mexico, which has exactly one government owned gun store, where it is highly illegal to own all kinds of firearms, still sees massive amounts of violence because criminals don't follow gun laws. They bribe cops, pay off smugglers, or just wait for the US federal government to come on down and sell them "Fast and Furious"ly.

    So, since mass shootings can't be avoided by any laws, the best thing you can really do is make sure that those willing to train and carry, have the opportunity to defend themselves and others.

    1. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Whereas in other countries which have stringent guns laws, but don't have Mexico levels of corruption it works pretty well.

      Arming everyone objectively doesn't work. You can point to places where lots of people have guns and there are relatively few shootings, but then point to another where lots of people have guns and there are many shootings. On the face of it, that would suggest that something *other* than just rates of gun ownership are a factor.

      The 'people can always get weapons' is idiotic. It is true - you certainly can't stop someone getting a butter knife then trying to stab someone - but the likelihood of a dozen people dying in a mass-butter-knifing is vanishingly small. The same can clearly not be said of mass-shootings because they happen, on average, more than every other day.

      Having high saturation of firearms in the population does mean that restricting gun sales and ownership is much less effective than it is in other countries with lower gun ownership (and that don't have absurdly pervasive corruption). Gun buybacks can be a useful way to remove guns from circulation. Sure, the people selling back their guns will not be criminals, but guns not out among the public can't be stolen or misused subsequently so it is a non-zero effect.
      What other reasonable alternatives are there? Selling only single-shot firearms? If everyone is armed with single-shot weapons, then the essential advantage of the 'armed good guys' remains, but mass shootings become considerably more difficult over time as the existing guns are removed from circulation through seizure by police, buy-backs, etc.

      Arming everyone is intuitively attractive as a strategy, but only makes sense if you don't think any kind of nuanced multi-step process is ever achievable.

    2. Re:Arm the first responders... by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Not every civilian needs to have a gun - heck, there are lots of law abiding citizens who *shouldn't* have guns, or aren't willing to properly train for marksmanship and safety. But just a small percentage will dramatically change the odds.

      That all being said, if rates of gun ownership aren't a factor, why focus on it at all?

      The fact of the matter is this - the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. The left-wingers want to define that as "only people taking a government paycheck". Now, perhaps, we could literally put every concealed carry holder on the government payroll, and give them a stipend for carrying for self defense - deputize whoever is willing to go through the permit and training process. And lord knows, that would be effective - more good guys with guns means less crime.

      It puzzles me how someone would be perfectly fine with walking into a starbucks with five cops there, all open carry, but be freaked out if one guy was packing concealed under his jacket - especially given the wildly different rules of engagement that civilians have to abide by in order to avoid jail.

    3. Re:Arm the first responders... by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      Sure, you dont get a dozen people stabbed, you get hundreds of people stabbed, and dozens killed.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/worl...
      Or one every month with several people killed each
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    4. Re:Arm the first responders... by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      Also considering the Safety record of Civilians shooting badguys to Police shooting badguys.

    5. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't possibly stop crazy people from getting weapons

      How about children? Can we possibly stop children from getting weapons? Thing is, crazy is a moving target. The mentally ill are as a group non-violent, same as most responsible gun owners. Any time there is a family exterminated in murder-suicide, every gun owner will say "crazy," but the offender wasn't always crazy... they turned way after acquiring a gun. So I think maybe guns make people crazy, in that they seem to believe it gives them control or security. In a civilized society, mostly a gun does nothing at all, is utterly useless except in those fleetingly rare occasions one is actually able to defend themselves against violent crime. That's like winning the lottery. These folks would be otherwise normal, but they are nuts about guns. For 99%+ of all domestic ownership of guns, it is an exercise in futility. Don't believe me? How long have you carried a weapon... and how often do you have the opportunity to use it for its purpose? My guess is that you haven't yet, and probably never will. So what is the point of carrying? Linus and I will stick with our blankets... far more useful in all situations.

    6. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't put out the sun so why wear sunscreen?

      That's your argument.

    7. Re:Arm the first responders... by bonehead · · Score: 1

      So I think maybe guns make people crazy,

      That is one of the dumbest fucking things I've heard in a very, very long time.

    8. Re:Arm the first responders... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Criminals are a different issue. This is designed to stop mentally ill people shooting up schools. Seems like while they could use a butter knife, they would probably be a lot less lethal if they did.

      Free mental healthcare would help too.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    9. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Normal criminals, on the other hand, will likely adjust their behavior to non-confrontational types of property crime, than robberies, rapes, etc, as they adjust to the new risk/reward ratio."

      Study some criminology, specifically criminal motivation and deterrence. Your statement would be deemed incorrect by the majority of criminologists.

      You are making propositional fallacies and providing what is essentially the conclusion of the argument as a premise, also read this: http://www.factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/

    10. Re:Arm the first responders... by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      I've never used my fire extinguisher.

      I've never used my airbag.

      I've never used my life insurance.

      Boy, I'm still glad I have them :)

      If simply having a tool in your home is enough to drive you crazy, I hate to break it to you, you were crazy well before that tool showed up.

    11. Re:Arm the first responders... by hsthompson69 · · Score: 2

      So, if you wanted to stop prostitutes from transmitting diseases, would you outlaw all unprotected sex?

      Criminals are a way bigger problem than the mentally ill. Trying to develop policy based on incredibly rare incidents is silly.

      The issue here is self defense. Either it is a right we have, or it isn't.

      I prefer freedom.

    12. Re:Arm the first responders... by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Science is not majority rule.

      Ever read John Lott, "More Guns, Less Crime"? :)

      http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/

      The fact is that criminals aren't generally stupid - they're rational actors who have made possibly misguided calculations, but will do simple things like, avoid confronting armed victims, in order to improve their chances of success. Those that *don't* make those adjustments in risk/reward ratio end up being shot like Trayvon.

    13. Re:Arm the first responders... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0

      the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

      The only way to stop a bad guy with AIDS is a good guy with AIDS.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    14. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Criminals don't follow the laws! There's no reason to have them!"

      As for mass shootings being avoided by any laws, this is perfectly possible to do. See: Australia: http://www.businessinsider.com/australia-gun-control-shootings-2015-10

      Obviously, laws like that are not really feasible with the 2nd ammendment, but clearly if there are no guns, there /cannot be mass shootings/.

    15. Re:Arm the first responders... by laoseth · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I've always honestly wondered, you really want to be a guy shooting a gun when the cops show up to an active shooter situation. I think at this point, you are what 50 - 100 times more likely to be shot by the police then "crazy people" as it stands, and thats without even actually being armed. Now assuming you don't die by hand of the shooter or the cops, what happens when you mistake an innocent as a shooter, or shoot them accidently, because its dark, or things are a little hectic when you are in the middle of the firefight. You go to jail for assault? Manslaughter? Maybe you get off for your attempts at heroism, but I can gaurentee you that the victim, or theirfamily, are going to sue the sh*t out of you, and you are probably going to lose. I don't want to come off as an ass, but I have never heard this arugments fully explained. It just seems less then fully though out.

    16. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jihadis? Don't you mean the gubment's minions?

    17. Re:Arm the first responders... by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Sure, Australia got rid of mass shootings.

      And now, they've had increases in violent crime by criminals because they know civilians are unarmed.

      http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/?A...

      Rape increased 29.9%

      So, they eliminated a scenario that was incredibly rare, and opened the doors to more crime and suffering...good job Australia!

    18. Re:Arm the first responders... by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      If you're the civilian good guy with a gun in an active shooter situation, you need to be incredibly careful, no doubt. More careful than even the police, since you don't have union lawyers to hide behind.

      But that being said, if you, and your loved ones in an active shooter situation, would you rather wait 15 minutes for them to finish the slaughter and the cops to arrive, or would you rather have one of your fellow citizens armed and able to respond as best they can?

      Yes, there is some small, minuscule chance that your attempts to fight back might go wrong. But taking that chance against a certain death...which one would you rather have? Die a noble pacifist? Let your children die in the name of your noble pacifism?

    19. Re:Arm the first responders... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The only way to stop a bad guy with AIDS is a good guy with AIDS.

      So if a bad guy with a gun shows up, you won't call the cops? And you won't use a gun to stop him? You'll say stop again? You'll hope for change? It's obvious that these two situations are not analogous.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    20. Re:Arm the first responders... by Ichijo · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      What you can do is give innocent, law abiding civilians the opportunity to defend themselves in case of an emergency, while they wait for the swat team to arrive.

      I think that's a great idea. You fire at the shooter and attract his full undivided attention, and his bullets, while I run. I promise to come to your funeral.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    21. Re:Arm the first responders... by mishehu · · Score: 1

      Generally I'm more confident in civilians... You should have seen what the LAPD did to that van with two small ladies who were clearly not Chris Dorner...

    22. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never used my fire extinguisher.

      I've never used my airbag.

      I've never used my life insurance.

      Boy, I'm still glad I have them :)

      If simply having a tool in your home is enough to drive you crazy, I hate to break it to you, you were crazy well before that tool showed up.

      Unfortunately your counter-argument is utilizing false dichotomy in each case. All the safety items listed are statistically far more effective at what they protect against. Life insurance doesn't get found by a child and cause tragedy. Your airbag might fail, but it doesn't kill someone a block away, ever. Guns are simply not effective at deterring violent crime, considering the large percentage of accidental injuries and deaths, and domestic homicides/suicides. A gun can't even defend you from a knife attacker from within 20 feet. The chances of successfully defending yourself against violent crime using a gun are slim. The chances of accidental injury or death from your gun are precisely the same every minute you own it. The only thing a gun does for you is make you feel secure... it doesn't actually make you any more secure. In fact, it is more a danger to you and those you love than any mind-easing benefit you gain. Unless you're a soldier or a cop, its a liability, like carrying a time-bomb.

    23. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You probably mean gun nuts were always crazy, too paranoid to leave their comfort zones unarmed, too obsessed to realize in most cases carrying a firearm undermines their security rather than enhances it.

    24. Re:Arm the first responders... by Undead+Waffle · · Score: 1

      I've never used my fire extinguisher.

      I've never used my airbag.

      I've never used my life insurance.

      Boy, I'm still glad I have them :)

      If simply having a tool in your home is enough to drive you crazy, I hate to break it to you, you were crazy well before that tool showed up.

      Unfortunately your counter-argument is utilizing false dichotomy in each case. All the safety items listed are statistically far more effective at what they protect against. Life insurance doesn't get found by a child and cause tragedy. Your airbag might fail, but it doesn't kill someone a block away, ever. Guns are simply not effective at deterring violent crime, considering the large percentage of accidental injuries and deaths, and domestic homicides/suicides. A gun can't even defend you from a knife attacker from within 20 feet. The chances of successfully defending yourself against violent crime using a gun are slim. The chances of accidental injury or death from your gun are precisely the same every minute you own it. The only thing a gun does for you is make you feel secure... it doesn't actually make you any more secure. In fact, it is more a danger to you and those you love than any mind-easing benefit you gain. Unless you're a soldier or a cop, its a liability, like carrying a time-bomb.

      Unfortunately your post is ridiculous.

      Firearms aren't very high on the list of common causes of death for children. Don't believe me? Check the CDC website: http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/.... The most common causes of death are drowning in the swimming pool and traffic. So the idea that you shouldn't have firearms around because "think of the children" is absurd. You need to be more safety conscious with children in general and there are plenty of things they could accidentally die from. The idea that a gun is a time bomb is also ridiculous for similar reasons. It all depends on how safety conscious you are. A lot of non gun owners seem to have this irrational fear that a gun is going to jump off the table and shoot them in the face at any minute.

      Do you also discourage people from owning table saws so they don't cut their fingers off? I have terrible news: the world is full of dangerous things. You best not go outside. Or inside. In fact, don't get out of bed or use sharp eating utensils.

    25. Re:Arm the first responders... by Undead+Waffle · · Score: 1

      I've always honestly wondered, you really want to be a guy shooting a gun when the cops show up to an active shooter situation. I think at this point, you are what 50 - 100 times more likely to be shot by the police then "crazy people" as it stands, and thats without even actually being armed.

      Now assuming you don't die by hand of the shooter or the cops, what happens when you mistake an innocent as a shooter, or shoot them accidently, because its dark, or things are a little hectic when you are in the middle of the firefight. You go to jail for assault? Manslaughter? Maybe you get off for your attempts at heroism, but I can gaurentee you that the victim, or theirfamily, are going to sue the sh*t out of you, and you are probably going to lose.

      I don't want to come off as an ass, but I have never heard this arugments fully explained. It just seems less then fully though out.

      I'm sure anyone with a CCW is well aware of these types of risks. If you have a gun you will most likely put it away before the police arrive. The CCW is just for the time before the police arrive. I don't think this image of a bunch of CCW holders running in rambo style is realistic. More likely it would be a crowded room where as soon as the shooting starts everyone looks for cover. If you have a gun and see an opportunity you take it. You have the advantage because the shooter doesn't know you have a gun.

      So in short the explanation is "you follow common sense and common gun safety practices". There are still risks but they are a bit overblown by gun control advocates.

    26. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, but in the UK we have no need to arm our paramedics. That sounds like crazy acceptance of a crapsack world of ultraviolence. That's not a solution to the problem - it might be the latest step in a Red Queen race, but it does nothing to change the race -- and the race is a supremely American thing.

    27. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I've always honestly wondered, you really want to be a guy shooting a gun when the cops show up to an active shooter situation.

      Absolutely not. I'm a concealed carry permit instructor, and that's one of the things I cover in my class. When the police show up, if at all possible you want to be disarmed and spread-eagled on the ground, to make it absolutely clear to the trigger happy kids^W^W^W fine police officers that you are no danger to them.

      This, however, has little or nothing to do with responding to a mass shooter, because by the time the police arrive it'll all be over. Experience shows time and again that a mass shooting ends very quickly after the shooter is confronted by an armed response. Usually they kill themselves. The police, on the other hand, nearly always take several minutes to arrive. If somehow they arrive faster, as soon as you hear them arriving, immediately distance yourself from your gun and get on the ground (safely, of course). That's unlikely, though. Even more unlikely than witnessing a mass shooting.

      Where it is an issue is if you confront an intruder or robber and don't have to shoot, which is the most normal course of events when you confront someone with a gun -- though it's not always how it goes down so you'd better be ready and able to shoot, not believe your gun is a magic wand that makes problems go away. In that case you may end up holding the criminal at gunpoint and calling the police. That's a very dangerous situation for you to be in. My recommendation is that you don't hold the criminal at gunpoint... tell them to run away, and let them go. Then get where you and everyone around you is safe, then disarm and wait for the police. When they arrive, give them a detailed description of the criminal and let them do their job.

    28. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. By then you really want to be the guy that has stopped the active shooter. Given that the cops are almost certainly several minutes away at best (at the Virginia Tech incident the cops took 45 mins to confront the shooter IIRC), so if you're still shooting by then, then (a) it's probably been mentioned on somebody's 911 call that there is resistance against the active shooter, (b) you've probably saved several other lives by disrupting the active shooter's plans. May not be of any comfort to you if you're killed by the cops, but it might be to your wife and kids if they were also there and potential victims.

      But the cops are not as trigger-happy as you might think, they encounter situations with more than one armed combatant in their daily jobs. They can read the body language of the other civilians in the area, and spot other risk factors (which one has the big bag of guns and ammunition, which one turns and starts shooting at them when ordered to lay down their arms). They may not get it right all the time, but it's not like they'll just charge into the situation and start killing everyone.

    29. Re:Arm the first responders... by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Do you also discourage people from owning table saws so they don't cut their fingers off?

      Lies. We all remember that one kid in shop class who was screwing around during the safety explanation for the table saw and ended up taking a board to the seeds when the saw kicked it back. Or at least that seems to be the most common table saw injury in my shop classes.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    30. Re:Arm the first responders... by dwillden · · Score: 1

      And they didn't actually eliminate an already very rare occurrence, there have been at least two mass shootings since the ban which is about on part with frequency of such events before the ban.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    31. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There a piece on the Daily Show a couple of months back about how incredibly hard it is to train and be prepared for an active shooter situation. Just because you own a gun doesn't mean you can shoot the bad guys. Less guns overall = less death.

    32. Re:Arm the first responders... by bonehead · · Score: 1

      I've lived around gun owners my entire life. I've known hundreds of gun owners. I can't honestly say I've ever met a "gun nut".

      But, to answer your question, a "nut" of any sort is pretty much crazy in the first place by definition. That's what "nut" means.

      in most cases carrying a firearm undermines their security rather than enhances it.

      This statement is just so obviously wrong that I suspect you're just trolling.

    33. Re:Arm the first responders... by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      If someone wants to do damage, they will do damage. Take away guns, and they mix fertilizer with diesel (two things you can't do much more to restrict) to make a bomb. Take away ammonium nitrate fertilizer, and someone that is serious enough will just synthesize it themselves with off-the-shelf household chemicals.

      A lot of people also forget that it doesn't take a whole lot to make a crude firearm out of some pipe and a few springs. No law will ever prevent a criminal from doing crime - they are criminals.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    34. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, there is some small, minuscule chance that your attempts to fight back might go wrong. But taking that chance against a certain death

      Tell us how you really feel.

    35. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...who in this case, are law abiding civilians.

      You can't possibly stop crazy people from getting weapons - be it butter knives, glocks, or automobiles. What you can do is give innocent, law abiding civilians the opportunity to defend themselves in case of an emergency, while they wait for the swat team to arrive

      I don't entirely disagree with you, or for that matter have the answer, but one item that I've never seen addressed by people who are proponents of "arming the public" is that many people that own firearms do not have the training or ability to engage in armed combat with another individual (or individuals). Sure, there are plenty out there that could (especially those with formal firearm training and regular practice, like military or ex-military), but I'd be interested in if this occurred, and there were some sort of mass shooting, how many of the injuries/deaths would be caused by "Good Samaritans" trying to stop the bad guys? And is that really better? I've fired weapons before (strictly rifles during ROTC) and I admit I was only decent at it, so I'd likely choose to either not carry (if I owned a weapon) or not use it unless I was 100% sure I was going to hit my target (which my fear is that not everyone is as sound of mind).

      I certainly think that this can be mitigated at least partially with things like required education/training/practice/etc., but it's a real issue that has to be tackled before we start allow carrying of firearms by all individuals in all public settings.

    36. Re:Arm the first responders... by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Training is certainly important. Regular training is certainly important.

      That being said, don't assume that civilians train less than military and police.

      If in an active shooter situation, I'd rather have five fatalities between both friendly and unfriendly fire, than 100 fatalities from unfriendly fire alone.

    37. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People need to get over their hero complexes and remember reality.

    38. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your comment shows that you haven't trained or even considered what you would do in such a situation. In your case it is best to remain unarmed. Buying a weapon is a large responsibility. Learning to use it properly is a significant commitment of time and money. Add on top of that the advanced self-defense training courses and you are far from being in the right mental state to be a hero. In fact, until you are 2/3 of the way up that scale, you need to recognize that you are more a danger than a help and should not intervene even if you are carrying and right in the middle of the shit storm.

      It's dark? You can't see? What the HELL makes you think a rational person would decide, "well, ok, I guess I'll start shooting too... that's what it looks like in the movies". I can live with myself if I have to kill one to save many. Not everybody can handle that, even if the one they kill needs to be stopped. And no, I don't worry about getting shot by the local cops. Because any idiot that makes it through the training knows to disarm and cooperate fully. Besides, the profile of a rampager and a guy taking cover waiting for a clean shot is very different. Especially if you take the time to get to know your local force, they are typically nice people working a stressful job. Personally, depending on the distance involved, I would want a damn clear shot with no chance of collateral, while behind good cover. Sorry, but if there is a person close by about to be popped, better the crazy does it than me. You can't save everybody, but you are right that you can be sued by the people you are trying to help.

      Also, if you are capable of doing more good than harm, you will be long done shooting the 1-2 "bad guys" before the cops arrive. It is not an easy situation to be in, and without proper training and forethought the best plan of action is run/hide. Like the sign at the local range where the cops practice says, "when seconds count, help is only minutes away".

    39. Re: Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, seriously, is it too hard to comprehend that the police can only arrive after the fact? By the time they show up, the shooting will all be over with.

    40. Re:Arm the first responders... by chiefcrash · · Score: 1

      Let's examine an earlier school shooting: Columbine

      Were you aware that Columbine was supposed to be a bombing, not a shooting? The BATFE estimates that had their bombs worked, they would have had casualties in the triple digits. But when their bombs failed, the assholes "settled" for just running around and shooting...

      What if they couldn't do that? What if they went home and build better bombs instead?

      Remember: the deadliest school attack in US history was not a shooting...

      --
      Show me on the 1st Amendment bobblehead where the moderator touched you...
    41. Re:Arm the first responders... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      In a gunfight, if you hesitate, you're likely to be dead before you shoot. If you can get a clear shot at the shooter, the shooter almost certainly sees you, wants to kill you ASAP, has a more powerful weapon, and doesn't care whether he or she hits someone else.

      A would-be hero who accidentally shoots a bystander and gets blown away before he or she can do anything else is really not helping.

      Remember the carjacking in Texas, where a concerned citizen fired several rounds, missed the criminals, and got the victim in the head? That's what you get if you arm too many people.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    42. Re:Arm the first responders... by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Yes, things can go wrong. For every thousand effective self defense uses of a firearm, you can find someone who negligently used their firearm.

      Here's a sample of the under-reported good guy with guns:

      http://blog.uritraining.com/?p...

      Now, that all being said, if you were in San Bernardino, and two jihadis were spraying and praying into the crowd, would you rather have a cop there to shoot back right away?

      Now, if the cop was off duty concealed carry, would you feel the same?

      Now, if the cop was really just a trained civilian with concealed carry, would you feel the same?

      Cops can't help if they're not there, and some help is better than none.

    43. Re:Arm the first responders... by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Interesting - I hadn't looked closely at their definition of "mass shooting" (apparently 4 victims isn't enough):

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    44. Re:Arm the first responders... by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      So, if we disarmed all the cops and the military, we'd have less guns.

      Do you really think that would mean less death?

      Less guns in bad guy hands = less death

      More guns in good guy hands = less death

    45. Re:Arm the first responders... by strikethree · · Score: 1

      I am unsure why this situation is so cloudy for you. There are places/times where lines can be crossed, but why is this an issue anyways?

      To answer some of your questions: Assuming a Wild West situation where there are numerous active shooters, most Bad Guys, some Good Guys, the good guys are either smart enough to lower their weapons when the police arrive or they get shot as being indistinguishable from the bad guys... and too bad for them. Stupid is as stupid does.

      To address your other question, I would like to pose a question to you: What happens when the police shoot an innocent? If the situation was volatile enough, it is likely the police officer would be exonerated. While a normal citizen would never be granted as much leeway as a police officer, the situation is the same.

      It sounds like you may not be able to deal with the responsibility of owning and carrying a firearm. That is fine. Nobody is requiring you to do so.

      In other words, you have provided arguments about why YOU should not carry guns but you have not provided any arguments about why others should be prohibited from carrying guns.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    46. Re:Arm the first responders... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I doubt your ratio is accurate, but I'm not going to argue about it.

      If I were in that predicament, I'd want an armed police officer around, and I wouldn't care if he or she was on or off duty. A sufficiently trained civilian would be about as good, although somewhat hampered by not having cop immunity. I really, really doubt that most armed civilians are that well trained. I'm positive that, if we push more people to carry concealed, that almost all of them would be untrained.

      Get more untrained people armed, and we'll get more situations like the Texas guy who shot the carjacking victim in the head, and the woman who fired at fleeing shoplifters, and less good effects from them. Put an untrained civilian in a mass shooting situation, and said civilian is likely going to freeze, flee, or shoot wildly and probably hit one or more innocents and miss the shooter. It's hard to keep cool in such a situation. If you don't have the training, your reactions won't be useful, and you won't be able to think properly.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    47. Re:Arm the first responders... by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Given the kinds of cop shootings I've seen in the news, and the lax range training requirements for requalification they have, I'm more inclined to trust my fellow armed civilian. Gun culture is about training, and every CCW holder I've ever encountered has been serious, dedicated, and conscientious. Now, yes, you may have the rare negligent weapons wielder, but that's *not* even a small minority - it's an infinitesimal one.

      Now, perhaps you just don't know that many gun folk, or perhaps you've known some really irresponsible gun folk, but in a SHTF situation, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Whether or not that good guy takes a government paycheck means little to me.

    48. Re:Arm the first responders... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The police are hardly perfect, but they have some training on how to handle such situations. This is probably more training for that particular case than the average gun owner has (although that's speculation). A live fire situation is one that, as far as I know, relatively few train for, and it's hard to think in those situations. The army doesn't really bother, but trains soldiers into doing what they should do in a firefight without needing to think.

      I have no doubt that most gun owners are responsible people who know what they're doing in most situations (although I've known a couple that very definitely weren't). I said that a properly trained civilian with a gun would be almost as good as a police officer, the difference being that the police officer has a little more leeway in lining up a clear shot, so we're in agreement there.

      It's possible to neutralize a bad guy with a gun in other ways, and a good guy with a gun may not be able to help. The Giffords shooter was rushed while reloading, and I remember reading about a teacher who stopped a potential mass shooting with a hug. There was a person carrying at the Oregon shooting. The Aurora shooter wasn't going to be stopped with gunfire in the theater.

      My big problem with that is that I keep seeing some people arguing that we should have more guns out there. Right now, people who carry generally know what they're doing, and when not to shoot. Add more guns and we're not going to get nearly as many more responsible gun owners. We'd get more incidents like shooting at fleeing shoplifters and shooting the victim. A responsible gun owner is not a danger, but an irresponsible one is.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    49. Re:Arm the first responders... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      The hero with a gun thing is pure fantasy. The US FBI recently released a report on mass shootings. Only one has been stopped by a civilian with a gun.

    50. Re:Arm the first responders... by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Soldiers definitely train for combat. SWAT definitely trains for combat. Your average police officer fires there weapon only a few times a year for qualification. That's the sad truth.

      I'd actually argue that the armed civilian is *safer* because they have to be aware of their own personal liability, whereas a cop might just decide to unload his magazine because he knew lawyers were there to back him up in the case of friendly fire. So, the civilian might not save as many lives as the cop (since the cop can take the shot at the terrorist without much regard for friendly fire), but the civilian is much less likely to end up with friendly fire (since the civilian knows they'll be held accountable for every piece of lead out of the gun).

      You're absolutely right, a massed attack during reloads can make the difference (france and their train, giffords shooting, etc), but that's incredibly lucky and rare.

      We should have *less* guns out there for bad guys (so, let's actually have a background check system that works, a deportation system that works, and a mental health system that works), and *more* guns out there for good guys - even just *slightly* more changes the calculus for criminals and terrorists.

      Put another way, we should be working towards *more* responsible gun owners, not fewer.

    51. Re:Arm the first responders... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The US FBI recently released a report on mass shootings. Only one has been stopped by a civilian with a gun.

      Could it be that law-abiding citizens within the gun free zones where most mass firearm killings have occurred tend to obey the relevant restrictions, and therefore have no firearm available to use in the defense of others? Naw, that couldn't be it...

      You're a frequent poster here and have demonstrated the capability to identify an obviously invalid argument when other posters offer such assertions. Consider applying that capability within the preview window.

      - T

  34. Re:NOT far enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Enjoy smashing into all of those white tailed deer with your car when the hunters aren't managing their numbers....

    Don't have deer here, but I'm sure those places could use poison instead, or, you know, drive more carefully.

  35. Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The most controversial of the provisions requires licenses for those who sell guns at gun shows and on the internet, and forces background checks on buyers."

    I'm more scared of going to the US now, if this ISN'T a standard requirement already!

    1. Re:Really? by sims+2 · · Score: 1

      Well lets see if you sell a gun on gunbroker you have to ship it to a FFL dealer for transfer unless the person you sold it to happens to be a ffl dealer.

      And guess what the dealer you shipped it to gets to do? They get to run a background check on the person who purchased it before disposition Muhahahaha its like nothing has changed at all.

      Now people selling guns on craigslist? YMMV.

      --
      Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
    2. Re:Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it changes a lot. If they require a background check for the actual online sale, then in states like Oregon where background checks are in-person at an FFL dealer, this will eliminate all online sales.

    3. Re:Really? by dwillden · · Score: 1

      No actually it doesn't change anything. Buy from an online store and they will ship it to the dealer of your choice who will run the background check on you. exactly as it already is. It will not eliminate online sales as any firearm that has to be shipped must go through an FFL and thus requires a background check.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    4. Re:Really? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      It is a requirement for anyone "in the business" of selling guns.

      What that means is anyone's guess, and that's likely what this administration wants to redefine. If they do it right, they shouldn't have any problem from anyone that isn't a frothing-at-the-mouth lunatic.

      Example: I have a handgun that I'd like to sell to my friend, because I'm not likely to use it anymore. He has expressed interest in buying it in the past. He is not a convicted felon, and already owns firearms, some legally purchased from a FFL dealer where a background check has already been performed. Do I have to go get some license and fill out a phone book worth of paperwork to do this under the new rules? If I do, then the new rules are complete shit, and I'm just going to keep the gun.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  36. Safety is about training by hsthompson69 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Obligatory 4 rules

    1) treat every firearm as if it is loaded
    2) never point the firearm at anything you're not willing to destroy
    3) keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot (target clearly identified, good sight picture)
    4) be aware of what is in front of and behind your target

    #4, of course, is the "good guy" rule - if you're a terrorist, generally you don't care about that one.

    Frankly, firearms safety should be a required course in kindergarten (stop/don't touch/leave the area/tell and adult), with another course in high school or junior high.

    1. Re:Safety is about training by TykeClone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Firearms safety and marksmanship should be a section every year through high school.

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    2. Re:Safety is about training by Mashiki · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Firearms safety and marksmanship should be a section every year through high school.

      It used to be. My dad was living in the US in the 60's and 70's finishing both high school and university respectively, it was taught as part of a high school education then in Michigan, Kansas and in SoCal, until people started whining about "guns being in schools." It was also a standard here in Canada until the laws became so restrictive it was stupid.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    3. Re:Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Totally agree. I compare this to teaching sex education. The more you know, the better off you will be.

    4. Re: Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I graduated high school in 97 and hunter safety was a required course in 9th grade in Wyoming. Part of the requirements were to shoot a gun which was done in the gym.

    5. Re:Safety is about training by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

      I went to high school in the first half of the 80s and they taught both firearm safety and archery. Now if you go near a school with a rifle or bow you'll be gunned down by the police.

    6. Re:Safety is about training by silas_moeckel · · Score: 2

      The usual requirement is make the police do it first give it a decade or more to work out the bugs. Right now they are failing 3 and 4 far to often.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    7. Re:Safety is about training by Nethead · · Score: 1

      That was the training we got in the chAir Force. In basic training we shot 100 rounds, just enough, God forbid, we actually had to use a gun. The rest was that if we found a gun, leave it alone and call the SPs and go back to your desk.

      --
      -- I have a private email server in my basement.
    8. Re:Safety is about training by Phydeaux314 · · Score: 1

      This isn't true. I regularly participate in archery courses at my local community college, and we just sling our bows over our shoulders when we go to the gym for practice. Campus security just waves at us and asks us how things are going.

      --
      Never underestimate the stupidity inherent in all human beings.
    9. Re:Safety is about training by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Go and give it a go near a highschool these days, we'll wait.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    10. Re:Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I agree, we should teach firearms safety to everybody. That way when one of them goes crazy and kills people with a gun, you can say "well, at least they did it safely!"

    11. Re:Safety is about training by Pseudonym · · Score: 2, Informative

      I know we're all talking about mass shootings here (which makes a change), but the overwhelmingly more likely scenario is that they will kill themselves. If you own a gun, the most likely person that it will kill is yourself, statistically speaking.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    12. Re:Safety is about training by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I was taught pretty much the same set of rules as listed above at school in the UK in the late '90s. It wasn't compulsory, but most people did at least a token amount of time on the range and got taught all of this. Of course, we weren't bringing our own guns into school - we had to get them from the armoury at the start of each practice and put them back at the end and the key was held by a member of staff and never loaned to students.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    13. Re:Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was taught pretty much the same set of rules as listed above at school in the UK in the late '90s. It wasn't compulsory, but most people did at least a token amount of time on the range and got taught all of this. Of course, we weren't bringing our own guns into school - we had to get them from the armoury at the start of each practice and put them back at the end and the key was held by a member of staff and never loaned to students.

      Ah, it take it you attended a Public school (USian: private school), good to see they're still keeping up the old traditions of teaching our future leaders how to shoot bolshie plebs..

      I went through a section of the state education system here in the UK and left in the early 80's long before there was any major anti-gun hysteria here, let me assure you, there were no guns at our school..the only pupils who got limited access were the ones who joined things like the army cadets (aka future cannon fodder), and these weapons were held by the army/navy, on their own premises.

    14. Re:Safety is about training by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      That was the training we got in the chAir Force. In basic training we shot 100 rounds, just enough, God forbid, we actually had to use a gun. The rest was that if we found a gun, leave it alone and call the SPs and go back to your desk.

      I work with pilots, a lot of them former military pilots, and I like to joke with them (especially the Air Force guys) that while most branches qualify at the rifle range, in the Air Force you qualify at the driving range.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    15. Re:Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Curriculum:

      Kindergarten - don't touch, leave, tell an adult
      5th grade - how to shoot a rifle
      8th grade - how to shoot a shotgun
      10th grade - parts of a gun and how they work
      11th grade - woodworking
      12th grade - low tolerance machining

      It will never happen, but is worth a thought.

    16. Re: Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your country past safety & accidents. Unless you think school shootings were accidents.

    17. Re:Safety is about training by bfpierce · · Score: 1

      My high school does archery, so does the one my wife teaches at. They also will pay for Hunters Safety.

      Drop the hyperbole, it doesn't help anybody.

    18. Re: Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How did that work out for France, where they took your advice?

    19. Re: Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My high school had archery when I went there 17 years ago, but now the hyperbole is true. We all have anecdotal evidence, so chill.

    20. Re:Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Firearms safety and marksmanship should be a section every year through high school.

      Interestingly this was in fact the case in both Italy and Germany in the 1930s.

    21. Re:Safety is about training by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I was taught pretty much the same set of rules as listed above at school in the UK in the late '90s. It wasn't compulsory, but most people did at least a token amount of time on the range and got taught all of this. Of course, we weren't bringing our own guns into school - we had to get them from the armoury at the start of each practice and put them back at the end and the key was held by a member of staff and never loaned to students.

      Eton Rifles, eh?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    22. Re:Safety is about training by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I know we're all talking about mass shootings here (which makes a change), but the overwhelmingly more likely scenario is that they will kill themselves. If you own a gun, the most likely person that it will kill is yourself, statistically speaking.

      That is actually another good argument for severely restricting gun ownership, although no doubt it's infringing your right to self harm.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    23. Re:Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly! Only the State should decide how and when you die.

    24. Re:Safety is about training by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 0

      Firearms safety and marksmanship should be a section every year through high school.

      Why don't we just leave high school to teaching real subjects. If your goal is for everybody to be trained on how to use a gun at the government's expense, mandatory service in the military would accomplish the same thing and be better training.

    25. Re:Safety is about training by cjjjer · · Score: 1

      Now if you go near a school with a rifle or bow you'll be gunned down by the police.

      Now if you go near a school with a water pistol or plastic bow you'll be gunned down by the police

      Fixed it for you.

    26. Re:Safety is about training by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

      I had JROTC in my high school, and I was a member of the varsity rifle team. That was in the late 80's.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    27. Re:Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work with pilots, a lot of them former military pilots, and I like to joke with them (especially the Air Force guys) that while most branches qualify at the rifle range, in the Air Force you qualify at the driving range.

      Roughing it in the field comparison:
      Army - your tent has a hole in it, but at least it isn't raining. The MREs are cold. Army Strong!
      Navy - you have to chip the rusty paint off the hull but at least the ice cream machine is working. At least we're not Marines!
      Marines - you had to dig your own foxhole with a teaspoon; it's raining; your foxhole is full of water, and there's been no food for 2 days. A supply truck shows up twice a day but all they bring is more ammo. Ooooraahh!
      Air Force - The hotel only has 3 stars. Housekeeping didn't turn down your bedsheets, and room service stopped 10 minutes ago. I can't be expected to fly after a night like this!

    28. Re:Safety is about training by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      A lot of that depended on your AFSC - if you were Security Police or aircrew, you pretty much got the same qual training that any other branch gets. If you were a PJ or worked with (or were) CA, you *really* spent time at the range.

      Meanwhile, Flightline AFSCs (myself among them) used to get a bit more than the minimum with actual M-16s after BMTS (dunno if that's still true or not). Everyone else (I believe nowadays the term for such folks would be "nonners") did the bare minimum in BMTS with an M-16... chambered down to .22 LR.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    29. Re:Safety is about training by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      If you're truly setting out to off yourself, I doubt that the absence of a gun will change your mind, or even slow you down all that much. See also Robin Williams.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    30. Re:Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit.

    31. Re:Safety is about training by butchersong · · Score: 1

      Guns are a convenient tool for suicide and I don't think safety classes would help that. The numbers are misleading on accidental vs suicide since authorities may tell families that someone may have "accidently" discharged the weapon in order to spare their feelings.

    32. Re:Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd like to see a basic 4 hour course on gun safety be a requirement before you can purchase a gun. But I'm sure the 2nd amendment absolutists would rally against that as well...

    33. Re: Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      How perfect is your country that you feel the need to address America's issues rather than your own country's?

    34. Re: Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In some places it is. I think it's a good idea. Before you can own a rifle or handgun, take a course. I see nothing wrong with that. The course will last for 5 years or so.

    35. Re: Safety is about training by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      > How perfect is your country that you feel the need to address America's issues rather than your own country's?

      Online forums are nothing but Europeans perpetually on the brink of war chiding Americans about how we have too many guns. They understand "it's another culture" if the other culture is doing any of a myriad of human rights violations, but their war against the second amendment never ever stops. It's no accident, it's not rational, it's just fear. They just want you to disarm. Of course it isn't in your interest.

    36. Re:Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of all the people shot and killed by guns last year, how many of them were done by cops?

    37. Re:Safety is about training by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Zero problems with that.

      Now, can we please get rid of the 10 day waiting period if I already have half a dozen firearms at home? Makes perfect sense, but I'm sure the gun-grabbers would rally against that as well...

    38. Re:Safety is about training by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      Cops don't shoot people. They discharge their weapon hitting a suspect.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    39. Re:Safety is about training by buck-yar · · Score: 1

      Columbine changed everything (I was in HS at the time).

    40. Re:Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't teach people in school car safety (certainly not as a course), why should we teach firearms safety? The average American is more likely to encounter a car on any given day, and about as many are killed by them.

    41. Re:Safety is about training by siliconsmiley · · Score: 1

      No amount of training will stop the murder-suicide.

    42. Re:Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You forgot "Keep your weapon on safe until you intend to fire".

    43. Re:Safety is about training by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Preschool. My kids pulled their first trigger at 4-5 yrs old. Curiosity and glamor quickly fade and the seriousness sets in.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    44. Re:Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, okay... #4 is the "good guy" rule. What about the idiots? There are a lot of them, and they think that rules are for pussies. Worse, they aren't good guys or bad guys. They are heavily armed idiots. Those are the ones I worry about the most.

    45. Re:Safety is about training by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      No restrictions on guns can stop murder-suicide. We have cars, knives, sharp sticks...

      At least if the murder victim(s) are armed themselves, they might have a chance to fight back.

    46. Re:Safety is about training by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      I'll assert that the vast majority of gun guys and girls aren't idiots. Yes, you're going to get some crazy in any population, but the caricature of anyone with a gun being some bruce willis cowboy wannabe is just that - a caricature.

      In the gun store I go to, they simply don't sell to idiots - I've seem them kick people out of the store and refuse to sell to them because they were playing up some angry, macho bullshit. Now, perhaps you've been hanging out with lots of idiots with guns, and in that case, I highly suggest you choose better company.

    47. Re:Safety is about training by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Firearms safety and marksmanship should be a section every year through high school.

      That would be so damned awesome! Granted, I grew up outside of town, so we had pretty constant access to rifles as long as we could buy the ammo, but the more the merrier.

      What amazes me though, is that so many people seem to think that guns are the greatest friggin thing ever made, and "Jeebuz Crystal I gotta have a gazillion and lets go on a gun vacation!"

      And then we have the little girl who kills a gun instructer with an uzi. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      Fucking idiots! The place that held the gun tour, her parents, and anyone who thinks an uninstructed 9 year old should be firing full auto weapons should turn themselves into compost. I feel so sorry for that little girl, having achieved her first human kill at 9 years old, the rest of those bastard deserve maximum Karma reserved for stupid people.

      And anyone who thinks it is a good idea has no concept of what happens when a person who has no idea what they are doing uses an automatic weapon. Every shot pushes the gun back a bit further, and the instinct is to grip a little tighter. The Arc happens. The same concept happens when you see a noob grabbing a fistfull of throttle on a motorcycle, then hangs on for dear life, revving the engine further. Just like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    48. Re:Safety is about training by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Go and give it a go near a highschool these days, we'll wait.

      Umm, do you think that students have a sniper trained on them at chemistry class as well?

      http://www.naspschools.org/ National Archery in schools program.

      School riflery programs

      http://www.maxpreps.com/search...

      Youre assumptions are incorrect. It isn't the use of these devices, its when the kid brings one to school to reorganize the place that they don't like.

      It's just like the people who think that religion has been scrubbed and banned from schools. That's almost as big a crock of shit as The Starbucks red coffee cup being part of the war on Christmas. Here one presumably liberal college town - there is a church, right in the high school. Meets every Sunday

      Now just like everyone else, you're going to call me a fucking liar. Well Ol Olsoc - he gots him his citations, and here it is. Godless liberal and socialistical America where God cannot be mentioned in School........

      http://www.cedarheights.net/

      I always tell people they are entitled to their own opinions. Facts on the other hand, can make those opinions look a little silly.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    49. Re:Safety is about training by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Totally agree. I compare this to teaching sex education. The more you know, the better off you will be.

      Especially the practicing part.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    50. Re: Safety is about training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read the Cedar Heights Web site. Seems to be a church at PA State College. No mention of a high school, let alone a public high school.

    51. Re: Safety is about training by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Read the Cedar Heights Web site. Seems to be a church at PA State College. No mention of a high school, let alone a public high school.

      At the very tippy top of the homepage, it reads Sunday Services 10:30 AM at State College High School

      The link that text is connected to takes you to a page with a google map, and has text noting:

      SUNDAY SERVICE LOCATION:

      10:30am at

      State College High School

      650 Westerly Parkway

      State College, PA 16801

      Another link on their site - I'll provide it, is http://www.cedarheights.net/we...

      Need any other help?

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    52. Re: Safety is about training by kiphat · · Score: 1

      Public schools are not in session on Sundays. The fact that the church is holding Sunday services at a public school on a Sunday is not the same as saying that State College High School, or any representatives thereof, promote the teachings of a particular deity. If the school was hold services while the school was in session, they would be practicing against the separation of church and state. The fact that they are holding services while school is not in session is no different than a boy scout troop having their weekly meeting in the high school cafeteria, as long as it's not willfully promoted by the school.

    53. Re: Safety is about training by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Public schools are not in session on Sundays. The fact that the church is holding Sunday services at a public school on a Sunday is not the same as saying that State College High School, or any representatives thereof, promote the teachings of a particular deity. If the school was hold services while the school was in session, they would be practicing against the separation of church and state. The fact that they are holding services while school is not in session is no different than a boy scout troop having their weekly meeting in the high school cafeteria, as long as it's not willfully promoted by the school.

      Make certain you twist and turn and tapdance so you can say that God has been banned in schools. Yes, yes indeed, this church has services on Sunday. In a godless school system, and with teh War on religion people's fear , wouldn't it just be easier to say, God is not allowed on teh School campus, so if you copme onto school property, we're having you arrested? A clear line in the sand, over which the religious dar not cross.

      Oh, here's another thing that won't fit with your persecution complex. They have bible clubs in schools, they have other religion clubs in school. "The God has been banned in schools" meme is just another lie for Jesus. Something that makes some people feel like they are being discriminated against, but completely untrue.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    54. Re: Safety is about training by kiphat · · Score: 1

      I'm an agnostic, so by no means do I feel persecuted. As long as my children aren't exposed to it then that's cool. If some one wants to pray on their own time, so be it. Just, don't be shoving that nonsense down my kids throats.

    55. Re:Safety is about training by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
      What the hell sort of school did you go to in the UK that had enough sports ground space for a range, let alone the inclination? My school, whichever direction you fired in, you'd go through a house within 200m (except where you'd be firing at people on a busy road).

      Oh, let me guess - you were at one of those big places out in the country with a long road through guarded, fenced and dog-patrolled grounds to get to the school proper. What did they call them? Oh yes. Borstal.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    56. Re:Safety is about training by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      .. hurts your teeth.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    57. Re:Safety is about training by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
      You can doubt it. But the success rate for suicides in countries with widespread gun availability is considerably higher than for countries where the aspirant ex-person has to go and buy painkillers from 4 or 5 separate stores, or learn to use the knife along the wrists, not across them, or disable the airbag on the car and then achieve a high-velocity collision.

      It's not just availability - the effectiveness of guns as a method of suicide leaves little room for second thoughts. Unlike crashing, drugging, or slashing.

      On which grounds, guns should not be easy to get hold of.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    58. Re:Safety is about training by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Or a passerby. (Who obviously becomes a suspect - for something - as the blame-evasion kicks into force.)

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  37. Re:NOT far enough by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 2

    Georgetown historian and favorite of Bill Clinton, Carroll Quigley concludes, from a historical study of weapons and political dynamics, that the characteristics of weapons are the main predictor of democracy. Democracy tends to emerge only when the best weapons available are easy for individuals to buy and use. This explains why democracy is so rare in human history.

  38. Re:NOT far enough by x0ra · · Score: 1

    Come and get them. In the mean time, I'll load my mags and lub my guns.

  39. Re:NOT far enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nobody in the 21st century needs to own a gun.

    Unless you live in America, which is apparently full of gun-toting retards so you need your own gun to defend yourself against those gun-toting retards. Eventually if we get enough guns we will hit a magical tipping point where every man, woman, transgender, transsexual and child has got guns so everybody will live in fear of everybody else and nobody will actually use guns out of fear of being shot by everybody else. The only problem is we haven't reached that point yet so NEED MORE GUNS!

  40. Study... Pffft! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about letting the CDC do its study?

    Well, if you want a damn "smart" gun, just connect it to the IoT... it only works if the dishwasher is set to cold rinse.

  41. Re:NOT far enough by khasim · · Score: 1

    That's what they worry about.

    Before you can go round up all those guns, you are going to have to repeal the 2nd amendment (Not to mention the 4th).

    Unless you make it a law that no one convicted of a crime can own a gun.

    Then you focus on getting convictions. If someone owns a gun, s/he can be found "guilty" of various crimes. Then they lose their guns and cannot, legally, own any more.

    People in California are already complaining about this.

    This is a complicated subject.

  42. Re: Safety Device? by bonehead · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I really don't care if my gun is safe. What I care about is ME being safe.

    As a result, I much prefer guns that work.

  43. Re:NOT far enough by bobbied · · Score: 1

    Yea, you are still going to have to repeal that pesky 2nd amendment if you try this on a large scale. Even the liberals on the Supreme Court won't fall for that idea, at least not yet. Then you have the door to door search problem prohibited by the 4th. Face it, guns are here to stay, we need to come up with solutions that recognize that and deal with the reality.

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  44. They'd sure be convenient. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    I'll bet my life on a smart gun working as soon as law enforcement (and, for that matter, the Secret Service) is confident enough in them to use them too.

    But think how convenient smart gun technology would be - if carried by cops, federal agents, and military:

      - You could make a cop detector, which would detect the signals between the gun and the token (or for any working on other than radio, there would still likely to be tempest-style signals to detect or ways to provoke it into betraying itself).

      - You could make a gun jammer, so the cop, agent, or soldier's gun would fail to fire.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  45. Well, that's why they are worth researching by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    Law enforcement would actually love such technology, if it was reliable. Police have been killed when their weapon has been taken and used on them, they'd be very happy with something that stopped it. But, it does need to be reliable.

    So I see no problem with the federal government investigating it. They should look in to new technologies that could make things safer. If they decide that ya, this is good, and start implementing it, then perhaps the rest of us should too, and probably would.

    1. Re:Well, that's why they are worth researching by Izuzan · · Score: 1

      It will never be reliable, Police wont accept the the use of a current handgun if it fails just once in 500 rounds. it goes back for a good cleaning, repair, parts replacement ETC.

      It is because of that 1 in a million time that the gun WONT work that they wont use them.

    2. Re:Well, that's why they are worth researching by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see no problem with the federal government investigating it.

      Is it really necessary to point out that the whole point of the 2nd Amendment is to allow citizens to defend themselves against the government?

      Developing a reliable technology that allows the government to control whose gun will fire is an effective negation of the 2nd Amendment. If "smart gun" tech is ever perfected and made a legal requirement, the only way for a citizen to exercise their rights will be if they break the law by buying, using or manufacturing their own "stupid gun".

  46. Re:NOT far enough by Charcharodon · · Score: 1

    I'm all for it, but the police need to turn in their guns first. After that they can go ask citizens to turn in theirs.

  47. Australian rape by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thanks to Australia's draconian gun laws, every violent, rapey, dick-swinging thug has been given an effective free pass to hunt, take down, and rape Australian women.

    Maybe when you're a petite woman, walking back to her car alone at night, who picks up that there are five guys heading her way with rape in mind, having a gun is less about "my dick is bigger than yours", and more about "keep your shrimp dick away from me".

  48. Smart Gun Technology by PPH · · Score: 1

    The burglars will just schedule their home invasions for the times that Microsoft pushes out a new Windows 10 update.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  49. Would be fine for my use case by Sowelu · · Score: 2

    I use my gun exclusively at the target range. It's a fun, if expensive, pastime. I don't really have an interest in using it for self defense; I think that would encourage me towards unsafe behaviors and make me more likely to get killed (compared to fleeing the area / hiding / giving the mugger my money). Staying alive is more important than ego. Also, they tend to get stolen by unstable family members or robbers or otherwise used against you, and I'm not willing to invest the $$$$$ in a super ultra fancy foolproof safe (though we do take lesser precautions).

    Therefore, for my use case, having a gun that fails "off" instead of failing "on" is great. Lock it to me, and if it stops working--guess I'm renting a gun that day. Maybe find some way to lock it to certain locations like ranges if the tech can do that. I wouldn't count on the protections being perfect of course, but if they stopped 9 out of 10 accidents, that's a big plus.

    1. Re:Would be fine for my use case by raind · · Score: 1

      That's cool, I use my car exclusively to go places. It's also an expensive past time. They tend to get stolen by car jackers though. I still won't own a gun.

      --
      Get up!
  50. Mechanical reliability by hsthompson69 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When you create a smart gun that will only fire when I'm personally holding it, without any sort of electrical bits, I'll bite. Until then, comparing the reliability of say, a purely mechanical vertical mill built in the 1800s and *still* working today, vs say, any imaginable bit of electrical technology, is like comparing the speed of light to the speed of sound - they're orders of magnitude apart.

    Ever try using "TouchID" on an iPhone? Ever have it not work? Yes, smart is "cool", but if I want reliable, I want a mechanical device, not an electromechanical one.

    1. Re: Mechanical reliability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry but you are going to have to invent that mechanical fingerprint scanner without electronics because nobody else has any clue where to start with that :(

    2. Re:Mechanical reliability by cavreader · · Score: 1

      We have smart phones and smart guns but what we really need is smart people. You hear about people getting into accidents because they were texting while driving. And now car manufactures are adding even more distractions for the driver.

    3. Re:Mechanical reliability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you create a smart gun that will only fire when I'm personally holding it, without any sort of electrical bits, I'll bite.

      Easy - build a mechanical lock into the gun. Many guns have a safety lever that you must turn before you can shoot. The "safety" will now be a key that you insert & turn - then your gun is useable. A lock can be made as sturdy as the rest of the gun, so it won't fail you.

      Locks can be picked, but a villain that successfully grabs your gun won't have time for that before you hit him with something.

    4. Re:Mechanical reliability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever try using a pacemaker? Or watched a transmission from the ISS?
      Not all electronic devices are stupidly unreliable. While most biometric technologies today aren't perfect yet, it doesn't mean we shouldn't be working on improving them.
      Sure, a "smart" gun would probably require to be put through mainteance every now and then that might require replacing a battery or running a series of self-tests that will show you that some part is faulty, backup kicked in and you should replace it ASAP, but regular guns require mainteance too.

    5. Re:Mechanical reliability by dywolf · · Score: 1

      So for someone who complains of comparing things miles apart, you sure do it a lot yourself.

      Besides, you're drawing an imaginary nonsense distinction where there isn't one.
      It's an engineering problem, no more.

      Just because it's not 100% solved yet doesn't mean it will never be solved.
      Firearms themselves are no where near 100% reliability.

      They require care and maintenance, but even with it, sometimes things go wrong.
      You get a jam, a misfire, what have you.
      Any sort smart tech would logically be no different, and would also require regular maintenance.

      Now engineers aren't stupid either. Any sort of electronics would need to be fairly robust, able to withstand physical shock. That's why some of the folks involved are folks with backgrounds in ruggedized electronics, such as the military uses.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    6. Re:Mechanical reliability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That has existed since the 60s. It's a magnet in a ring. Works great, highly reliable. It's an niche product very, very few buy.

    7. Re:Mechanical reliability by Fast+Ben · · Score: 1

      Easy - build a mechanical lock into the gun. Many guns have a safety lever that you must turn before you can shoot. The "safety" will now be a key that you insert & turn - then your gun is useable. A lock can be made as sturdy as the rest of the gun, so it won't fail you.

      Locks can be picked, but a villain that successfully grabs your gun won't have time for that before you hit him with something.

      Smith & Wesson and other manufacturers has been building revolvers with these locks since the 70's. Nobody I know actually uses the locks, nor do I.
      Use of a firearm is a last resort - when a villain comes running at you with a knife, your sidearm needs to be ready to shoot right fucking now.
      Are you going to have time to fumble for a key and unlock your weapon in the 2 seconds it takes him to cover the distance between you?

    8. Re:Mechanical reliability by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      Well, they didn't let Cheney wear a pacemaker without a whole bunch of safeguards.

      If your electronic devices can be disabled by a variety of shenanigans (remote hacks, EMP, some other garbage), then you ultimately have guns that only fire when given permission by the government. That's not a gun any more than giving them a backdoor to your encryption is encryption. Gimme a break, it's all the same thing, over and over.

    9. Re:Mechanical reliability by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Orders of magnitude matter.

      Having mechanical reliability of 99.99999% is massively different than having eletromechanical reliability of 99%.

      Let's take the most simple electromechanical failure - lack of power. Exactly what should the "failure" condition be for a smart gun in that case? Refuse to fire? Or fire without electronic validation?

      How much more common is it to run out of batteries than say, break a firing pin in a semi automatic?

      Even engineering problems have boundaries, and if you're not willing to understand the boundaries, you'll do silly things like expect 1ms latency over 25000 miles.

    10. Re:Mechanical reliability by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      If he's armed with a knife, I'd rather take the baseball bat option. If he's armed with a gun, he's going to shoot me first whether I have a gun or not.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    11. Re:Mechanical reliability by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      You sound like my grandpa in 1990. He swore he would never own power doors, locks, or windows on his trucks, because it was "just one more damn thing that will break".

      I say that assuming you actually have power windows/doors/locks:)

    12. Re:Mechanical reliability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can have electronics hardened to withstand EMP pulses, like the military does.
      If your gun was designed by someone who thinks that having it connected to the internet is a good idea, you might have bigger issues than hackers from china trying to shoot you with your own firearm.

    13. Re:Mechanical reliability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Running out of battery power is something that can be solved easily, by adding a battery charge indicator and/or using more specialized batteries that don't discharge by themselves that fast / have a longer lifespan.
      In that case, the fail case should obviously be refuse to fire. It'd be trivial for a thief to remove the battery.
      For electronic malfunctions, one could do two/three redundant chips that'd alert the user in case any of them fails. The gun can still be fired, and owner can easily fix it during regular mainteance by swapping out the electronics (smart guns are not intended to be a foolproof solution, they are supposed to prevent someone from grabbing your gun and firing it at you in the spur of a moment).

    14. Re:Mechanical reliability by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      It's 2am. You hear the back door being bashed down. You grab your infant, open your gun safe, and grab your gun, taking a defensive position in your bedroom. In one hand you call 911, in the other you keep a good eye on the door with your weapon.

      Two thugs come into the bedroom before the 911 call is finished. You drop the phone, place both hands on the weapon, clearly identify your targets are *not* your family, and squeeze the trigger.

      Click.

      "refuse to fire" fail case is now the reason for the deaths of a mother and her infant child. All the cops find when they finally get there is two dead bodies.

  51. Re:NOT far enough by bonehead · · Score: 1

    I live in a rural area where pretty much everybody owns multiple guns, and a great many carry them as a matter of routine.

    This makes me feel SAFER! I'm sure as hell not living in fear of my neighbors.

    If your neighbor owning a gun frightens you, then pack your shit into a U-Haul and move to a decent neighborhood.

  52. Hey Rocky! by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    ...Watch me order the feds to study smart gun technology!

    Again? That trick never works!

    Cue silly music.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  53. Re:NOT far enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Come and get them. In the mean time, I'll load my mags and lub my guns.

    Yeah you're a real tough guy with your gun! This is what is wrong with many of you Americans, you willingly accept all manner of civil liberties violations except gun control and if they suggest that you will threaten gun violence and pretend you would be willing to die just to have your gun. You would be perfectly happy for them to permanently put a surveillance camera up your ass just so long as they dont take your gun so you can feel like you have power.

  54. What happens when firmware gets old? by CMU_Ken · · Score: 1

    Will manufacturers be required to update their smart firearm firmware until the end of time, or does this become another avenue for planned (or unplanned, I suppose) obsolescence? Just wondering.

    1. Re:What happens when firmware gets old? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      I don't know why it would need a firmware update other than bug fixes. It's not like they'll have to update it if Facebook changes an API, and if it does require some external API then it's a completely useless piece of shit.

      The world has had microcontroller-based systems that never get updated for decades.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  55. Re:NOT far enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And hows all that democracy working out for ya, hmm? Taste the freedom!

  56. Just treat buyers like women who want to abort by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    From https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153198474377602&set=a.336771462601.150077.681192601&type=3&theater

    "Or, hey, how about we treat every young man who wants to buy a gun like every
    woman who wants to get an abortion -- mandatory 48-hr waiting period, parental
    permission, a note from his doctor proving he understands what he's about to do, a
    video he has to watch about the effects of gun violence, an ultrasound wand up the
    ass (just because). Let's close down all but one gun shop in every state and make him
    travel hundreds of miles, take time off work, and stay overnight in a strange town
    to get a gun. Make him walk through a gauntlet of people holding photos of loved
    ones who were shot to death, people who call him a murderer and beg him not to buy
    a gun.

    It makes more sense to do this with young men and guns than with women and health
    care, right? I mean, no woman getting an abortion has killed a room full of people in
    seconds, right?"

  57. Toothpaste by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can we apply the same logic to the out-of-wedlock welfare queen toothpaste and the destruction of the nuclear black family giving rise to gangbanging thugs that never had fathers? Let's fix that toothpaste mess before we give up our right to defend ourselves from these thugnificent sons of obama.

  58. Comma, comma, comma by hsthompson69 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That's easy - it's necessary to the security of a free State. Prefatory.

    Thank you, comma.

    http://www.businessinsider.com...

    "shall not be infringed." Operative.

  59. Mandatory joke about the smart gun by AchilleTalon · · Score: 2

    Will it run systemd?

    --
    Achille Talon
    Hop!
  60. Re:NOT far enough by khasim · · Score: 1

    Yea, you are still going to have to repeal that pesky 2nd amendment if you try this on a large scale.

    As you've noted, that probably isn't going to happen.

    And even if it did, the authority would revert to the states.

    Face it, guns are here to stay, we need to come up with solutions that recognize that and deal with the reality.

    The guns are here for the moment.

    Like I said, they worry about a "backdoor". Even if it takes a generation or more. Simply convict anyone who owns a gun of a crime that makes it illegal for them to own guns. No "door to door search" needed.

    Here is the scenario: If I want to buy a gun, I have to go through the background check. That flags me. I buy the gun but then I'm "investigated" for a "crime" and prosecuted. I'm found guilty and any guns are confiscated and I cannot buy any more.

    That is the reason why certain groups oppose mandatory-background-checks-on-all-transfers.

    Of course, if you think that that will happen then you're probably delusional and/or paranoid. Which is another reason to remove your gun rights. And it will never violate the 4th Amendment.

  61. The tighter you squeeze... by KonoWatakushi · · Score: 1

    Rather than ever more oppressive laws that strip the people of power, it would be more effective to consider the motivations of those who would commit violent crimes. It is the pervasive poverty and egregious wealth inequality that drives most crime, along with our worsening system of injustice. Similarly, we should be considering the causes of terrorism, rather than allowing our leaders to exploit it to cow us with fear.

    When the minimum standard of living becomes sufficient to afford everyone a decent existence, such problems will naturally disappear. Desperate and hopeless people will do terrible things, and no amount of force is going to prevent that. Fortunately, outside of the mentally ill, few would risk a comfortable life to engage in serious criminal activities. (Assuming a reasonable set of laws and fair enforcement.) Even the religious fanatics would see their numbers dwindle, with no oppression needed.

    With abundant and cheap energy, eliminating poverty is entirely possible. That result will not come from energy conservation and renewables alone though; it will require nuclear power. Objectively speaking, nuclear energy has the lowest cost and least environmental and health impact of any energy source, and advanced reactors can do better yet. The Star Trek economy is within reach, if only people had the courage to embrace a change for the better, and to rein in the special interests.

  62. Smart guns? Wtf? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nothing smart about guns, until they come up with ones that don't kill. Wouldn't it be cool if they made guns that, after pressing a button, any living target in scope immediately drops unconscious for like 5-10 minutes, and can be used repeatedly if needed. Or have setting for how long you need to put the target out. Low: 5-10min, med 10-20min, high 30min-1hr. Could be something like a phaser in stun mode.

    Something like this can be integrated to your iPhone, so we can finally make good use of that useless fingerprint scanner. And I'm sure there will be cool face recognition apps for it too!

    The iPhone gun also doesnt have to be so loud. Just Like ring-tone settings, maybe you can choose the sound it makes when fired, play a techno song or something...or silent mode....I'd put the Star Wars laser canon sound, vwooosh.

      That would solve all of our gun problems!!!!

  63. In Constitution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And another Supreme court could reverse abortion, gay marriage, Obamacare, or even Social Security and Medicare.

    Ever notice liberals depend far more on Supreme Court decisions and can't risk those decisions being overturned? While conservatives rely on what is ACTUALLY WRITTEN in the Constitution? Funny how you can read the second amendment and pretend its not there, but don't notice all the things I listed are not in there but you will argue how they are.

    When you rely on the Supreme Court you can be destroyed by the Supreme Court.

  64. When police standardize then others will follow by clay_buster · · Score: 1

    Change the law so that all LE officials use them. They represent the largest semi-trained pool of gunhandlers and are most at risk from firearm takeaways. They also have enough buying power to fund development and create a reasonable cost structure. The government has been pushing / legislating smart guns for years but always exempting law enforcement.

    1. Re:When police standardize then others will follow by Mike+Van+Pelt · · Score: 1

      I like the idea of generalizing this across the board: If private citizens can not have any particular weapon, law enforcement is not allowed to have it, either. Period, no exceptions. If law enforcement is allowed to use a weapon, then private citizens can have it, too. Period, no exceptions.

  65. No Way! by JimSadler · · Score: 1

    Fine guns are collectable. Often people own working guns over 100 years old. Software and electronic systems come and go and in a few short years after being made a smart gun may be worthless and not repairable due to electronic incompatibilities with moe modern electronics or software. Further, the graceful nature of a really good firearm could be made hideous by the addition of safety systems. If you look at a good six- shooter you will find that many were made with no safety at all. They were perfectly safe if used by a trained shooter. You simply never put a loaded round under the hammer. That way if something slammed into the hammer, such as the gun being accidentally dropped on the hammer, the gun would not fire. So a six-shooter as carried was often actually a five shooter. Dr. Porsche made a great point about the beauty of simplicity and the beauty of utility. Designing a product to be as simple as possible should always be a design goal.

    1. Re:No Way! by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Often people own working guns over 100 years old.

      For those of you who doubt this I deer hunt with a rifle that is about 119 years old and I can keyhole shots at 50 meters with it. It is a Finnish M39 (receiver and bolt were made in 1897) that was last re-barreled in 1944.

      --
      Time to offend someone
  66. Trump to the rescue by Orgasmatron · · Score: 1

    Trump should declare that when he is president, he will direct the US Attorneys to fully prosecute (aka seek draconian fines and jail time) for doctors and administrative staff that personally violate HIPAA (and other laws), as written by congress, to provide this information illegally, regardless of any rules or desires expressed by the current president. The very records the FBI would use to deny Americans their rights without due process of law would effectively be signed confessions.

    What doctor would take the risk? Obama can't pardon John Does, he can't change what the law actually says, and an executive promise not to prosecute today doesn't mean shit to his successor.

    It is big and bold, it assumes and thinks beyond the sale, and it would stop this madness before it starts. It would secure his support among gun owners. It would also show the voters that Trump, not even technically a nominee yet, is already more powerful than the sitting president.

    --
    See that "Preview" button?
    1. Re:Trump to the rescue by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      You can't retroactively prosecute people for things that were legal at the time, genius.

      And a "declaration" by Donald Trump now has the force of law of a skidmark on a wino's toe rag.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    2. Re:Trump to the rescue by Orgasmatron · · Score: 1

      "legal" is defined by law (congress), and it is not currently legal to violate HIPAA, even if Obama says you should. If you do something that is illegal now, even if done because of a promise from the current president not to prosecute you, you can still be prosecuted later, because the law is what the law says, not what the president wishes it said.

      The leading candidate for the office can promise to prosecute in the future. People will need to decide if they want to take that risk or not based on their assessment of his chances.

      --
      See that "Preview" button?
  67. Strict scrutiny by hsthompson69 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The 2nd amendment already has limits: can't murder people, or rob people, or kidnap them, or threaten them.

    Now, are we going to have background checks on all newspaper editors? Require training to prove they aren't incompetent or a threat to others? Will you apply the same laws to speech, religion and assembly as you would to self defense?

    The 2nd Amendment *isn't* any different than the others - and if you want to limit it, please, let's apply strict scrutiny, shall we?

    * compelling government interest
    * narrowly tailored
    * least restrictive means

    1. Re:Strict scrutiny by Malc · · Score: 2

      Why not just agree the 2nd amendment is out-of-date and wrong, and just get rid of it?

      There's little left of the Magna Carta recognised in English and Welsh law due to most of it being repealed or superseded. Do you really want to continue for another 600 years arguing that the US Constitution and it's amendments are even relevant? To most of us in the rest of the world, the arguments put forward by American gun advocates don't sound much different to religious fundamentalists using the bible or Koran to justify their outrageous positions, i.e. there's no logical sense.

    2. Re:Strict scrutiny by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      Well considering that the US constitution is the supreme law of the land it should be relevant even 600 years from now. There is however a couple of methods for changing it which no one seems to be all that keen on doing. So instead we end up with very twisted rulings and laws that try to work around things, like most things dealing with terrorism and agencies that spy on US citizens.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    3. Re:Strict scrutiny by Malc · · Score: 1

      Of course there should be some relevance, but I feel it should be a little more dynamic. I'm glad we didn't get a written constitution cast in stone 800 years ago because the world then was very different to now.

    4. Re:Strict scrutiny by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      The 2nd amendment already has limits: can't murder people, or rob people, or kidnap them, or threaten them.

      None of those are related to the Second Amendment, the right to own or bear arms. In addition, these are primarily matters for the states, not the federal government.

      The 2nd Amendment *isn't* any different than the others - and if you want to limit it, please, let's apply strict scrutiny, shall we? ... compelling government interest ...

      If you interpret "compelling government interest" as "attempting to improve some national statistic based on some half-assed theory about causality", then you can justify pretty much every policy you like, all the way to government mandated pay scales or even nationalizing all the means of production. That is not how the US government is supposed to work. That isn't what a "compelling interest" ought to look like.

    5. Re:Strict scrutiny by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      To most of us in the rest of the world, the arguments put forward by American gun advocates don't sound much different to religious fundamentalists using the bible or Koran to justify their outrageous positions, i.e. there's no logical sense.

      No, what makes "no logical sense" is the idea that you can meaningfully enforce a law prohibiting possession of something as simple as a metal cylinder with a handle. Attempting to do so would be even worse than the "war on drugs". Now, I understand that this may be hard to grasp for, say, urban, mechanically challenged, government-indoctrinated Europeans (which is what I presume you mean by "the rest of the world"). I understand because I used to be one. But your lack of understanding is your problem, not a problem with US politics.

      Why not just agree the 2nd amendment is out-of-date and wrong, and just get rid of it?

      There is a democratic process for that. Anybody who wants to do that is welcome to try.

    6. Re:Strict scrutiny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      um, isn't the second amendment specifically directed to weapons? Not sure where the 1st Amendment is directed to man-made devices specifically designed to kill?

      "The 2nd Amendment *is* different than the others."

      Fixed that for ya.

    7. Re:Strict scrutiny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ideally if you control speech strictly enough, then you can prevent all violence too.

    8. Re:Strict scrutiny by Calhune · · Score: 1

      Much of America has little interest in what the rest of the world thinks about us. That kind of dates back to 1776. Trying to get rid of any of the Bill of Rights could very possibly start another civil war in the US. I'll pass on that.

    9. Re:Strict scrutiny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      let's apply strict scrutiny, shall we?

      Sure.

      * Compelling government interest - preventing slaughter of its citizens
      * narrowly tailored - requirements only affect those seeking to obtain instruments that cause the slaughter
      * least restrictive means - Denying said instruments only to those groups we, based on scientific study and rational thought, appreciate a credible threat to use instruments to slaughter citizens.

      I'm okay. I'll also note that strict scrutiny is a first amendment test. All amendments are not susceptible to the same analysis. Fourth amendment reasonableness does not apply to first amendment speech restrictions because the amendments themselves have different wording ("Unreasonable searches and seizures" v. "right to free speech shall not be infringed"). So just because you apply strict scrutiny to first amendment doesn't mean you apply it to all amendments. There is nuance to the language, as I'm sure you'll agree.

      Similarly, arms, unlike speech, shoot people. I'm perfectly comfortable drawing a distinction between regulation of firearms and regulation of toasters. We already do this. You can buy a pistol, but not a shoulder-launched SAM. We understand there are limits on weapons permissible to the general populace, even though we rarely need to debate it. The debate is always over which weapons. The NRA seems to forget this point. I speculate that's because its corporate backers can't sell SAM missiles to the general populace. I bet if they could, those would be a patriotic duty for every citizen to own so they could shoot down F-18s that threaten liberty.

      Like every policy debate, I think there's spectrum. One end is no weapons above civilian-grade kitchen knives and golf-clubs. At the other end, everyone gets their own neutron bomb if they can afford it. Where we draw the line is where people differ. Let's talk about it, without making strawmen and demonizing any side.

      For the record, I don't want the government to keep a national gun registry, or require a license to own a firearm. I'm also okay with all point-of-sale purchases being validated that past murders and the certifiably, medically insane don't obtain firearms. Isn't that a possibility?

    10. Re:Strict scrutiny by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      You misunderstand "least restrictive means" and "narrowly tailored".

      If you want to prevent the slaughter of citizens, it makes sense to arm the first responders...i.e., good law abiding citizens.

      Narrow tailoring would mean you should limit this only to people who have an overwhelming propensity for violence against others (say, Islamists).

      Least restrictive would mean that on those narrowly tailored (Islamists) would be subject to additional laws and regulations.

      As for various types of weapons, the distinction should generally be area-effect vs. point-target. You can make the rational assertion that no civilian should need a grenade, but an AR-15 should be perfectly reasonable.

    11. Re:Strict scrutiny by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      No, I won't agree to that. Self defense is an inalienable right today, just as it was in 1776.

      The idea that we must all leave ourselves at the mercy of criminals and wait for the police to arrive before effective self-defense can take place is a recipe for more victims, period.

      Until they assign secret service details to every citizen of the United States, outsourcing self-defense is a non-starter.

    12. Re:Strict scrutiny by chihowa · · Score: 1

      Of course there should be some relevance, but I feel it should be a little more dynamic. I'm glad we didn't get a written constitution cast in stone 800 years ago because the world then was very different to now.

      There's an established amendment process, so it isn't cast in stone. The process for amending it isn't even that onerous if there's some consensus among the population. If we wanted to repeal the 2nd Amendment, like we repealed the 18th Amendment, there is a legal method for doing so that still preserves the integrity of the constitution and the government that is built on it. The fact that there isn't enough consensus to repeal it means that much of the population disagrees with your opinion on the matter.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    13. Re:Strict scrutiny by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Here, let me restate for you:

      The 2nd amendment already has limits: can't murder people with guns, or rob people with guns, or kidnap them with guns, or threaten them with guns.

      I thought that it would be obvious :)

    14. Re:Strict scrutiny by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      The 2nd amendment already has limits: can't murder people with guns, or rob people with guns, or kidnap them with guns, or threaten them with guns.

      The Second Amendment doesn't state that people can do any of those things. That is, the Second Amendment states that people have the right to own and bear arms, not to do whatever they want with arms. Therefore those limits are not limits on the Second Amendment. Furthermore, your example is wrong in another sense, because murder, robbery, and kidnapping are usually matters of state law, not federal law.

      I thought that it would be obvious :)

      Your reasoning was obvious, and it was obviously false.

    15. Re:Strict scrutiny by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      Think about it for a moment - when is it appropriate to bear arms?

      In self defense - check.

      Hunting - check.

      Target shooting - check.

      Murdering someone - nope - we restrict your right to bear arms towards that end

      Kidnapping someone - nope - we restrict your right to bear arms towards that end

      Similarly, we don't allow people to speak when yelling "fire!" in a crowded theatre.

      The trick is, we restrict behavior narrowly (in the case of "fire!" in a theatre, you're preventing a mass stampede and injuries, death and mayhem).

      An analogous restriction for the right to bear arms is to limit it when you are not behaving appropriately.

    16. Re:Strict scrutiny by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      Murdering someone - nope - we restrict your right to bear arms towards that end

      The "bearing" (carrying) of arms is perfectly legal; it's the "murdering" that's illegal. But the "murdering" part is illegal regardless of whether you "bear arms" or not, and it falls under state jurisdiction in most cases.

      Similarly, we don't allow people to speak when yelling "fire!" in a crowded theatre.

      Hitchens called this "the fatuous verdict of the greatly over-praised Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes." That phrase actually comes from a 1919 SCOTUS ruling making speech opposing the US role in WWI illegal, itself an utterly unacceptable position and one only a totalitarian and war monger would approve of, but then that seems to describe your attitudes. The ruling was overturned in 1969, so even any remote semblance of validity that notion may have had disappeared ten. So, there is neither law nor precedent making that kind of speech illegal.

      The trick is, we restrict behavior narrowly

      Your personal fascist leanings notwithstanding, restricting behavior of citizens on the remote possibility that they might harm themselves or others is not an accepted legal or political principle in the US. There are some examples of where the US put in place such legislation (none of which you actually have managed to identify), but they are exceptions, not the rule, and we should strive to reverse those. They certainly do not justify passing more of such legal crap.

    17. Re:Strict scrutiny by Malc · · Score: 1

      Australia had a similar misplaced frontier attitude until they finally wised up and restricted guns - see how their rate of mass shootings has subsequently plummeted. But, you don't have to go that far afield: try north of the border to find a country that's more American than anywhere else but still has almost universa (even in Alberta)l incredulity at the American attitude towards guns. It seems you're the one jumping to conclusions and having a problem with understanding.

    18. Re:Strict scrutiny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes or no. Do people have the right to protect themselves, their families and loved ones? Does that right extend to using deadly force when needed? The answer to both questions is "yes" and it is supported by the law of the land. If you don't like it, leave.

    19. Re:Strict scrutiny by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      So the "speaking" of "fire!" is perfectly legal; it's the creating a stampede in a crowded theatre that is illegal :) Of course the "creating a stampede" part is illegal whether you speak, or bash cymbals together, or start waving a sword around :)

      In 1969 the Court held that government cannot punish inflammatory speech unless that speech is directed to inciting, and is likely to incite, imminent lawless action. That sounds like "fire!" in a crowded theatre to me.

      The fact of the matter is this - self defense is just as inalienable as speech, religion, or assembly. You can pretend that's not so, but it doesn't change it.

    20. Re:Strict scrutiny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Australia had a similar misplaced frontier attitude until they finally wised up and restricted guns - see how their rate of mass shootings has subsequently plummeted.

      The "rate of mass shootings" in Australia hasn't "plummeted", and it can't "plummet", for the simple reason that they are so rare to begin with; that is, no matter what the true rate might be, you simply can't estimate it based on such few events. Gun homicides have decreased in Australia, but that wasn't affected by the new gun laws, and they have actually decreased more in the US without any significant new gun laws.

      It seems you're the one jumping to conclusions and having a problem with understanding.

      Nope, sorry, you just don't know what you're talking about.

    21. Re:Strict scrutiny by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      The fact of the matter is this - self defense is just as inalienable as speech, religion, or assembly. You can pretend that's not so, but it doesn't change it.

      Why are you telling me? Did you even bother to read what I wrote?

    22. Re:Strict scrutiny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see the relevancy of what "the rest of the world" thinks and why you feel you're the spokesmen but I enjoy the protections the 2nd amendment grants and will continue to fund the security of it through the NRA. If our country feels it needs to be changed there is a way to change it, the process is clearly laid out, good luck with that.

    23. Re:Strict scrutiny by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      I did read what you wrote. You're simply mistaken on the facts.

      You claimed the 1919 SCOTUS ruling was "overturned" in 1969, without clearly understanding the case history.

      The 1969 case is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      "The U.S. Supreme Court reversed Brandenburg's conviction, holding that government cannot constitutionally punish abstract advocacy of force or law violation."

      "The per curiam majority opinion overturned the Ohio Criminal Syndicalism statute, overruled Whitney v. California,[2] and articulated a new test — the "imminent lawless action" test — for judging what was then referred to as "seditious speech" under the First Amendment:"

      This "imminent lawless action" test replaced the "clear and present danger" test.

      https://popehat.com/2012/09/19...

      Now, maybe you think the case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... was literally about yelling "fire!" in a crowded theatre - it was not. That happens to be the tortured analogy Holmes applied in his opinion, but that's *not* what the case was about.

      It is, today, an illegal use of the "freedom of speech" to yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre to cause "imminent lawless action" (a stampede).

      So, if you're willing to restrict the 1st amendment for inciting "imminent lawless action", we can apply the same restriction to the right to bear arms - you can't bear arms in such a way that would incite "imminent lawless action" (let's say, waving a rifle and pointing threateningly at a crowd in a theatre).

    24. Re:Strict scrutiny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just admit that your scared of gun's be cause your a faggot.

    25. Re:Strict scrutiny by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      So, if you're willing to restrict the 1st amendment for inciting "imminent lawless action", we can apply the same restriction to the right to bear arms - you can't bear arms in such a way that would incite "imminent lawless action" (let's say, waving a rifle and pointing threateningly at a crowd in a theatre).

      That argument hasn't been made in court, so it's purely your own fabrication. And the reason that that argument hasn't been made in court is that it likely doesn't work:

      Under the imminent lawless action test, speech is not protected by the First Amendment if the speaker intends to incite a violation of the law that is both imminent and likely.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... So, what does that mean? As far as speech goes, you can punish people after the act of speaking provided you can show that the speaker intended to incite an imminent violation of the law. The possibility that people might intend to incite an imminent violation of the law is not a justification to impose prior restrictions on speech.

      Likewise, if you applied the same reasoning to the bearing of arms, you could punish people after the fact, if you could demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that their act of carrying guns was intended to incite a violation of the law. And, guess what, threatening people with guns is already illegal in many cases. It's also why a lot of people get shot by police. You cannot, however, use that reasoning to implement any prior restrictions on gun ownership or the bearing of arms.

      So, despite your attempts at hair splitting, it all comes down to simple Second Amendment rights as usually advocated for by 2A defenders: you can own and bear arms, and you should be able to do so free from federal interference (and because of 14A, arguably, from state interference), but you can't legally use your guns to threaten or hurt people. So, thanks for making a good case for Second Amendment rights and against gun control by analogy with First Amendment history.

      The current legal situation is not quite like that yet; that is, the state and the federal government currently still impose more restrictions on guns than they arguably constitutionally should. But since, as you point out, SCOTUS has already limited the power of the government on First Amendment issues, it may well do the same on Second Amendment issues. It's also not a given that SCOTUS won't get rid of the "imminent lawless action" exemption altogether, since it seems rather pointless.

    26. Re:Strict scrutiny by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      The possibility that people might intend to incite an imminent violation of the law is not a justification to impose prior restrictions on speech.

      Pay close attention here - they're asserting that imposing prior restrictions is *not* allowed.

      Given that is true with the 1st amendment, why do you think prior restrictions should be allowed for the 2nd amendment?

      You cannot, however, use that reasoning to implement any prior restrictions on gun ownership or the bearing of arms.

      *Exactly* my point. If we are going to treat the 2nd amendment as an equal to the 1st amendment, prior restrictions on ownership or the bearing of arms, like say, limiting magazine capacity, prohibiting ownership, prohibiting concealed carry, etc, etc, can't possibly be seen as meeting the tests of strict scrutiny.

      Perhaps we are more in agreement in disagreement.

    27. Re:Strict scrutiny by ooloorie · · Score: 1
      No, your point was that the state can impose limits on the Second Amendment:

      The 2nd amendment already has limits: can't murder people, or rob people, or kidnap them, or threaten them.

      That's wrong. Neither Congress nor the courts can "limit" constitutionally guaranteed rights; the only way to limit them is through amending the constitution. By making the argument that "the Second Amendment has limits", you're basically saying that any form of gun control is constitutional if Congress deems it so. And none of those prohibited activities you list are activities guaranteed by the Second Amendment. In fact, the Second Amendment isn't even the source of the right to bear arms. The source of the right to bear arms is the Constitution itself: it didn't grant Congress the power to limit private ownership or use of guns; that power falls to the states. The Second Amendment only clarifies this explicitly.

      Perhaps we are more in agreement in disagreement.

      I have no idea what your view is. On the one hand, you say you don't want prior restraint on gun ownership, on the other hand, you seem to think that it's OK for Congress to "limit" constitutionally guaranteed rights.

    28. Re:Strict scrutiny by hsthompson69 · · Score: 1

      No, your point was that the state can impose limits on the Second Amendment:

      But only insofar as it has imposed limits on the 1st amendment (such as imminent inciting of violence). Gun registration, limits on magazine capacity, prohibition of concealed carry, don't have any analog to the limits we've accepted on the 1st amendment - and therefore it should be obvious they wouldn't pass strict scrutiny.

      Go back to the start of the thread - dywolf said our rights had limits, and gave examples of 1st amendment restrictions. My challenge to him was to show that his preferred restrictions of the 2nd amendment had 1st amendment counterparts. I asserted there already *were* similar restrictions, and none of them had to do with any gun control legislation ever proposed.

  68. Don't Reckon.... by Ferretman · · Score: 1

    ....I will ever buy a "smart gun".

    Ferret

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    Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
  69. America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by Orgasmatron · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem, It Has a Democrat Problem

    America's mass shooting capital isn't somewhere out west where you can get a gun at the corner store. It's in Obama's own hometown.

    Chicago is America's mass shooting capital. There were over 400 shootings with more than one victim. In 95 of those shootings, 3 or more people were shot.

    2,995 people were shot in Chicago last year. Shootings were up, way up, in Baltimore. With an assist from Al Sharpton and #BlackLivesMatter, Baltimore beat out Detroit. But Detroit is still in the running. Chicago, Baltimore and Detroit all have something in common, they're all run by the party of gun control which somehow can't seem to manage to control the criminals who have the guns.

    The murder rate in Washington, D.C., home of the progressive boys and girls who can solve it all, is up 54%. The capital of the national bureaucracy has also been the country's murder capital.

    These cities are the heartland of America's real gun culture. It isn't the bitter gun-and-bible clingers in McCain and Romney territory who are racking up a more horrifying annual kill rate than Al Qaeda; it's Obama's own voting base.

    Gun violence is at its worst in the cities that Obama won in 2012. Places like New Orleans, Memphis, Birmingham, St. Louis, Kansas City and Philly. The Democrats are blaming Republicans for the crimes of their own voters.

    Chicago, where Obama delivered his victory speech, has homicide numbers that match all of Japan and are higher than Spain, Poland and pre-war Syria. If Chicago gets any worse, it will find itself passing the number of murders for the entire country of Canada.

    Chicago's murder rate of 15.09 per 100,000 people looks nothing like the American 4.2 rate, but it does look like the murder rates in failed countries like Rwanda, Sierra Leone and Zimbabwe. To achieve Chicago's murder rate, African countries usually have to experience a bloody genocidal civil war.

    But Chicago isn't even all that unique. Or the worst case scenario. That would be St. Louis with 50 murders for 100,000 people. If St Louis were a country, it would have the 4th highest murder rate in the world, beating out Jamaica, El Salvador and Rwanda.

    Obama won St. Louis 82 to 16 percent. ...

    (Go read the whole article, it is worth it)

    --
    See that "Preview" button?
    1. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by cold+fjord · · Score: 1
      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    2. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by should_be_linear · · Score: 3, Insightful

      From European perspective, this discussion is clearly frightening as hell. You guys sound like bunch of cowboys from Wild West saloon (tm). I am already tired of news about mass shootings in US, and I am not living there. Perhaps, just perhaps, owning so many weapons has something to do with it? One guy is even calling Donald Trump do the rescue (of his "rights")! With president Trump You are moving from current "country with two almost same parties" into "country run by crazy person" game, with Russia, North Korea or Cuba. Not that I care, just 2c.

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      839*929
    3. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by r0kk3rz · · Score: 1

      However, which way does the causality operate? Are victims of gun violence more likely to support gun control, and thus vote Democrat? or does gun control cause more gun violence?

      If its the former, then isn't it unfair that the Republican states are stopping the Democrat states from addressing their problems how they see fit?

    4. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point Big O is making above is that Guns are Illegal in Chicago. So no one can defend themselves from the illegal guns that criminals use with impunity. Criminals know they're safe using guns, so they do.

    5. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by dywolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Chigaco is not, and never has been, the murder capital of the country.

      That is a myth.
      That FBI releases the numbers every year.

      Chicago is not even close to being the most dangerous city in the US.

      In fact, the 3 most dangerous cities actually have lows against passing ANY gun control ordinances, whatsoever

      6 cities have held the title 'murder capital' since 1985. None was Chicago.

      In fact the city most often claiming the title, is New Orleans.
      And it's one of those that is barred from crafting any firearms ordinances by state law.
      What state is that? Why, Louisiana, the 2nd most dangerous state I the nation, with some of the weakest gun laws in the nation.

      And at the other end of the spectrum, one of the safest cities in the country is, repeatedly, New York City, replete with its very strict gun control.
      Located in New York state, one of the safest states in the nation, a state with tough gun control, and already closed the gun show loophole among other things.

      Funny how you types always leave that out.

      And some more reading:
      http://www.pewresearch.org/fac...
      http://www.kansascity.com/opin...
      https://www.washingtonpost.com...

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    6. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      st Louis, also located in a very red state with very lax gun laws, and prevented by state law from passing gun control.

      your article, in fact your entire screed, is a ple of BS.
      you try to pin this on the democrats, by pointing out cities in red states that are prevented from passing gun control by their republican legislatures.

      you're an idiot.

    7. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is this modded up? Are you seriously suggesting that political affiliation is an indicator of violence? Why don't you just go all out and say "All blacks are criminals!"

      It seems to me like you just pointed out that areas with gun violence problems would like better gun regulations and vote accordingly. Suggesting that the party that wants fewer guns on the streets is the cause of gun violence is.... well, absurd. And while the crime rates in those areas are high, there's nothing to suggest most people there are criminals or even most registered voters. You're more likely to be a victim or a witness of gun violence than a perpetrator, that's what most of those voters are. Not criminals, victims.

    8. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by Orgasmatron · · Score: 1

      If you spent as much time reading the article as you did assembling your talking points, you'd have noticed that Mr. Greenfield mentioned Chicago as "America's mass shooting capital", not "America's murder capital".

      Your facebook memes are weak. How many states do you think preempt local firearms laws? Just the three you mentioned? No, 47 states (out of 50!) have preemption laws. 2 of those were partial and I didn't feel like looking up the specifics, so we are looking at 90% to 94% of the states.

      Also, the three cities with the highest homicide rates have a lot in common beyond being in a few of the many states with pre-emption laws. For one thing, they have been dominated by Democrat politicians for decades. Obviously, that means they are stuffed full of Democrat voters. Which is the point of Mr. Greenfield's article.

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    9. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by Orgasmatron · · Score: 1

      Between 45 and 47 states, out of 50, have preemption laws.

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    10. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by Orgasmatron · · Score: 1

      I'm trying to avoid quoting the whole article because he is an excellent writer and deserves the traffic (also, I have to manually convert his unicode apostrophes into ASCII for slashdot, which is annoying), but here is another chunk that might address some of your concerns:

      Voting for Obama does not make people innately homicidal. Just look at Seattle. So what is happening in Chicago to drive it to the gates of hell?

      A breakdown of the Chicago killing fields shows that 83% of those murdered in Chicago in one year had criminal records. In Philly, it's 75%. In Milwaukee it's 77% percent. In New Orleans, it's 64%. In Baltimore, it's 91%. Many were felons who had served time. And as many as 80% of the homicides were gang related.

      Chicago's problem isn't guns; it's gangs. Gun control efforts in Chicago or any other major city are doomed because gangs represent organized crime networks which stretch down to Mexico. And Democrats pander to those gangs because it helps them get elected. That's why Federal gun prosecutions in Chicago dropped sharply under Obama. It's why he has set free drug dealers and gang members to deal and kill while convening town halls on gun violence.

      America's murder rate isn't the work of the suburban and rural homeowners who shop for guns at sporting goods stores and at gun shows, and whom the media profiles after every shooting, but by the gangs embedded in urban areas controlled by Democrats. The gangs who drive up America's murder rate look nothing like the occasional mentally ill suburban white kid who goes off his medication and decides to shoot up a school. Lanza, like most serial killers, is a media aberration, not the norm.

      --
      See that "Preview" button?
    11. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by bfpierce · · Score: 1

      They also have massive inner city poverty, and massive inner city drug gangs in common.

      But yes, let's all pretend politics is the cause of all this, and having complete unfettered access to all the 2nd amendment offers will somehow solve those two things above.

      Dipshit.

    12. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're completely wrong. The states with the highest incidences of gun deaths are almost entirely red states.

      Bu-bu-but... that's because guns are used for suicides! Yeah, keep talking, while more people die unnecessarily.

    13. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      What you may find interesting is that once you get out into the outer ring suburbs and rural areas there are a lot of people who own firearms yet there isn't massive gun violence or shootings. It is actually extremely rare for there to be a shooting as in it was a big deal last year when there was shooting in my town that hadn't had one in years. For example the small city I live in (an almost outer ring suburb in the Twin Cites area of Minnesota) most my my neighbors have several firearms in their homes. None of them feel they need them for home defense or personal defense while out doing their daily things. However many of them hunt and even a good number of their spouses hunt so 2-6 firearms in a house isn't really uncommon. The difference is that you never hear about these people in the news as we don't cause problems and even if you do it is usually in the local paper on the back page of the sports section around thanksgiving when someone shoots an exceptionally large buck during the deer season.

      So what you see and hear in the news isn't the majority of regular responsible gun owners but the few criminal ones. These are mostly from the large inner cities where they have rampant gang, drug, crime, poverty, etc problems which are things that are lacking in Europe. As an American who lived in Paris for a while I never felt unsafe anywhere in that city (Paris proper) while in either of the large cities in my metro area I know the are specific neighborhoods where I would very likely be accosted if I went there at night and walked around (the Crack Stacks in Minneapolis). Even in some of the better areas it is amazing the police presence (Block E) at bar close in those cities while in Paris you just got told to leave once the subway started running the next morning.

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      Time to offend someone
    14. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rhetoric is happening because a group of people is trying to force a huge change onto another group of people with zero context for why those things are important to the group. Several changes have already been perceived as being forced on that group in recent history with little time allowed to culturally recover from those shocks. The way our government works, Trump's being in power wouldn't be as big of a disaster as it seems. He can talk all he wants but it isn't the president's job to set policy (just ask the other side how well that is working out). He would be a terrible president, but not because he can really do anything he is talking about doing. The good news for a Trump win is that it would relax some of the pressure on Republicans for cultural change which frankly needs a relief of some measure.

    15. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if you remove the numbers from those cities America ranks 4th from the bottom instead of 4th from the top in gun murders.

    16. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps, just perhaps, owning so many weapons has something to do with it?

      I will agree with that just as soon as you show me a weapon with it's
      own free will.

      As someone from the U.S., it amazes me how many people here either hate taking responsibility for themselves or are too afraid to do so, so they try to justify their decision by pretending that no one else should ever be held responsible, either. Which is precisely how we came to the point of collectively blaming inanimate objects for the choices that people make.

      There are certainly serious problems here in the U.S., but cold,
      lifeless, inanimate objects are not responsible for them, and blaming
      those objects won't solve the problem

    17. Re:America Doesn't Have a Gun Problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Europeans are easily frightened, got it.

  70. Federally mandated bad engineering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ANYBODY can design a ship or an airplane or a rocket - the results might not work of course. The engineer is the one who can design the plane that is light enough and has enough power to fly while being strong enough to not fall apart. The engineer is the one who can design the ship that is strong enough to carry its cargo and withstand the stresses of the sea while being light enough to float and shaped properly for stability. Good engineering is, more often than not, knowing what to leave out .

    A properly engineered machine contains exactly the right amount of hardware to get the job done reliably... and NOTHING more. The addition of any extra hardware adds costs, complexity, and new failure modes. Federal mandates for such things only prove the fact that they are not needed, because the people who make and use the machines would have added them long ago if they were needed.

    After centuries of development, we know what is needed for a proper gun design, and NONE of the new "smart gun" features are required - in fact they are ALL designed to make the gun fail to function in various scenarios. These new bugs/features do not improve the price, functionality, reliability, or usability of the machine; they prevent it from properly functioning. They pretend to substitute an artificial failure mode for human judgement and control. This is like adding an extra system to an airliner to deprive the pilot of control whenever that new system decides to activate - with the outrageous presumption that the new system will always function perfectly and will perfectly anticipate all situations. This is, by definition, BAD ENGINEERING.

  71. cops / armed forces don't want smart bs they want by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    cops / armed forces don't want smart bs they want there guns to work when they need them.

    Also in the armed forces the logistics will get in the way as well much less can the gun hold like 5K+ different users in it's local storage?

  72. Re:NOT far enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unless you make it a law that no one convicted of a crime can own a gun.

    Such a law would still be in violation of the 2nd.

  73. And where's the money coming from? by Chas · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Oh that's right! More unfunded mandates, in an attempt to legislate by someone who isn't a legislator!

    I normally ignore LaPierre and the NRA. But he put up a great point.

    People, good people, in Obama's home town, Chicago, get shot day in and day out by gangbangers, thugs, and assorted lowlifes.
    So where are the fucking tears for them?
    And what's he done for THEM in the last seven years while he was rectally inserting his thumbs whilst seated?

    But mention Sandy Hook and WOW! Out comes the waterworks!

    We already have SHITLOADS of gun control laws on the books. Most of which simply aren't enforced.

    If we're going to throw money at gun control, throw it at the laws already on the books and get the enforcement FUNDED!

    No! Let's pour pointless money into STUDIES on shit that's already been studied TO DEATH, resurrected, and studied to death AGAIN.

    And let's mandate more shit and basically hope that the magical unicorn farts blow in the right direction and result in money falling out of nowhere!

    This kinda shit is why I don't own a gun. This kind of idiocy makes me want to shoot the asshole in charge.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
    1. Re:And where's the money coming from? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please shoot the assholes in charge.
      They obviously suck.
      And aren't leaving.
      Shoot them.

    2. Re:And where's the money coming from? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Oh that's right! More unfunded mandates, in an attempt to legislate by someone who isn't a legislator!

      This is known in most countries as "rule by decree". This is a feature that isn't normally found in democracies. "Transformed" indeed.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    3. Re:And where's the money coming from? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you'll recall the presidential debates with Romney, Obama talked about the gun problem in Chicago.

    4. Re:And where's the money coming from? by dywolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      no.
      as usual you're wrong and ignorant.

      these initiatives all operate through existing mandates for existing government agencies and those agencies' jurisdictions.

      they are neither unfunded, no 'rule by decree'.

      in fact, most of the things Obama stated were things that Republicans used to support...until Obama supported it too.

      According to reporting by the Huffington Post, in January 2013 Ryan called closing the so-called gun-show loophole in background checks "reasonable" and "obvious."

      In fact, Ryan told the editorial board of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel that he recalled thinking the loophole was a problem when he first arrived in Congress. "There is a loophole here. We should address that," Ryan told the board in the 2013 interview.

      http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/05/...

      As usual, they'd self-asphyxiate out of spite if Obama declared Oxygen important.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  74. non sequitur by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A person buying a gun is not necessarily EVER going to harm another human being. The vast majority of gun buyers in America NEVER shoot ANYBODY, and the majority of normal people who buy a gun for self-defense do so only ever planning to shoot a criminal if they ever must shoot somebody. Most guns in America never are used to kill ANY human being.

    Every single abortion ends an innocent human life. No human has ever given birth to a non-human, and no human ever born was a criminal at the moment of his or her birth. A human embryo has its own unique DNA from the moment of conception and is, therefore, NOT part of its mother, or just a blob of maternal egg cells, or paternal sperm cells which will rapidly die if not interfered with. A healthy human embryo in utero, if simply not artificially interfered with, will be born as a human being even if people deny its humanity before birth. As a society, we actually already accept the humanity of the unborn child everywhere except in abortion clinics and certain political gatherings. Hospitals and doctors perform many surgeries per year on children while they are still within their mother's wombs, assigning them names and medical records and monitoring them as separate human beings. We prosecute murderers for the deaths of unborn children. When unborn children die from accidents, violence, and even late-term miscarriages they are often named and buried as any other human beings.

    By highlighting waiting periods and parental notifications you are only noticing that abortion supporters who oppose such things treat the act of abortion as less serious than an aspirin pill for which many institutions require such things for minors. Planned Parenthood, which was founded by famous eugenics freak Margaret Sanger for the express purpose of eliminating black, brown, and poor babies has aborted ten times as many humans as the Third Reich killed. You should not equate this monstrous and deliberate mass-killing with individual Americans seeking an inanimate object to use in their natural right of self-defense, or for hunting, or target practice or even the constitutional purpose of deterring government (foreign and/or domestic) abuse which almost never results in ANY death, not even the death of an embryo.

    The first step to murder is in denying that the person you are about to kill is human.

    The first step to genocide is in denying the basic humanity of an entire group of people.

    By your very flawed way of "thinking", any person buying a piece of hardware that MIGHT be used to harm another person (things like cars, knives, bathtubs, and even food fit in that category) should be automatically treated as though they are about to deliberately kill the most-innocent human being.

    Next time, try thinking before posting so that people might actually be fooled into thinking you are capable of rational thought.

    1. Re:non sequitur by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should probably go and use a dictionary. "Genocide" doesn't mean what you think it does.
      You should also probably go fact check and see, how many times a gun is successfully used in self defense vs. either assault or accident.
      Also that romantic idea you could use guns against the government - you're just plain insane if you actually believe in that. The power imbalance is way beyond as that a couple of people with guns (or even a lot of people with guns) would be able to make the slightest difference. But yeah, maybe you can shoot down that predator drone before the missile is fired (no, you can't).
      Regarding rational thought: you probably should go and fact check, what's the cause for abortions, or the need for it. Usually those people who are against abortion are also the nutters who don't want sex education, don't want proper social care for single teenage mothers etc.
      I think the only actual rational and sane point of your whole post is the question whether an unborn is already a person and how to value its rights against the rights and needs of the becoming mother.
      But there's also so much nutty propaganda in your post that I doubt there's any real point in replying to your post.

  75. Nice try by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Never rely on an agenda-driven propaganda site you agree with for ammunition in an argument. Let me show you a better way:

    Here's a left-wing-friendly UN report

    that you should read which comes from a source that a lefty like you will even think is credible.

    What that oft-cited garbage propaganda map you pointed to attempts to do is confuse many people by disguising many other things as "gun violence" in order to fuel an anti-Constitutional agenda to disarm citizens - a long-time fantasy goal of leftists. If you read the UN report I linked to, you will discover that even left wing globalist wackjobs admit that the murder rates are FAR higher in many places with much tighter gun control and that most "mass shootings" in the Americas (and, yes, that includes the US) are gang and drug crimes. Indeed, the recent mass shooting in California was an act of terrorism. What anybody with a brain and who pays attention to the news knows is that drug, gang, and terrorist violence (which is all already illegal) while often performed with (often already illegal) guns simply moved to bombs, knives, poisons, and clubs when guns are not available. This is how the murder rates are so high in so-called "gun free" places.

    If you subtract terrorism, and drug and gang shootings (which usually occur in big cities with many gun control laws and run by liberal Democrats), the US has a remarkably LOW murder rate relative to the rest of the planet, and all the more remarkably given the number of diverse cultures present.

  76. Are you one of those nutcases who... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    keep insisting it's impossible to round-up and deport 11 million illegal aliens who have no explicit Constitutional right to be here, but thinks rounding up 300+million explicitly Constitutional guns from an armed citizenry is OK, possible, and practical????????

    You have not thought this through, have you?

    Do you understand that gun tech is centuries old, and there are many thousands of Americans who MAKE guns and ammo, and therefore there are an unknown number of guns and rounds in the nation which can NEVER be found/tracked/counted/grabbed and that more can and will be made faster than any gun-grabber could grab them? The US is not populated by the same sort of compliant sheep that populate other nations.

    Oh, and as a Slashdot reader, have you somehow managed to avoid all the articles about 3D printing and milling???

    Sheesh! gun control postings on this site sure do expose the lack of intellectual firepower of some netizens.

  77. Better use the No Gun technology by stooo · · Score: 1

    Better use the No Gun technology.
    Far better one. Proven in use by 6,5 Billion people.

    --
    aaaaaaa
  78. Instead of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    smarter guns we need smarter people. Period.

  79. Re: Safety Device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you're worried about your own safety, you should probably not own a gun. It's pretty well-documented that a gun owned for self-defense is more likely to cause harm to you or yours than to a hypothetical attacker.

  80. Only in the States by jandersen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Let me see - something like 90% of the American population want tighte controls on guns - certainly a solid majority. The President wants to do the right thing, morally and democratically, by introducing some really quite moderate steps to control gun availability. But somehow this is impossible, because one industry, the arms manufaturers, holds the whole country to ransom by paying politicians to oppose anything, however minor, reasonable or even symbolic, that looks like it was against their financial interests. And the really, really amazing thing is - these people and their bought politicians are not rounded up and put on trial for corruption. In all other industrialised countries in the world, what Americans call lobbying, would be called by its right name: corruption.

    I won't ask why, and I won't try to argue with people; I know my comments will be attacked wildly and irrationally and I will be called 'troll' and other nice things. It doesn't matter, but I think it is important that people - in this case Americans - with sane, moderate views let their opinions be heards and felt, and that they don't allow the gun extremists to bully them into silence.

    1. Re:Only in the States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But somehow this is impossible

      Because of the Constitution? Correct.

      Don't like it? Our founding fathers had some sense and less hubris than one might think. There's this lovely little process that provides the ability to make further amendments to the Constitution.

      Easier to try to push through illegal bullshit though, ain't it?

    2. Re:Only in the States by jandersen · · Score: 0

      Because of the Constitution? Correct.

      And here we go; that didn't take long. Do go on - I have long ago resigned to the fact that this whole subject is nothing more than a soap opera with the usual, highly stylised posturing and silly primadonnas doing stupid things, just in time for the cliff-hanger at the end of today's episode.

      But to those who are willing to engage their intellect: this is obviously not about the constitution, but about big money interests, that are allowed to overrule the interest of civil society. There is no reason to think that if people who want guns and those who don't, were to sit down and talk it over, they would be able to reach a sensible, workable compromise, where more or less all Americans that are not totally out on a limb would be able to buy a gun will be able to, while stopping most of those who are for obvious reasons not the kind to be trusted with anything sharper than a wooden spoon. I would think that by far the most of the people who are now gun enthusiasts, will still be able to own guns, completely independently of which political or religious views you have.

      At the moment literally anybody can go to an arms fair and buy guns with no real restrictions; nobody will know about it, because nobody even keeps a tab on it - even transparent schemes like when a professional arms dealer pretends that he owns, privately, 500 identical Kalashnikovs or whatever, can sell them off without performing any checks, and will probably not even be challenged by the police - how can that be right? Just grow up, people, just grow up.

    3. Re:Only in the States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is already against the law to act as a gun dealer without an FFL.

      It is already against the law to own, sell, or possess Kalashnihov machine guns, or any other firearm that can expel more than one projectile with a single activation of the trigger mechanism (with the exception of those grandfathered by Reagan's machine gun ban of 1986).

      it is already against the law for the seriously mentally ill to purchase firearms.

      It is already against the law for convicted felons to own, purchase, or possess firearms.

      It is already against the law dot dot dot

      All Obama accomplished yesterday was to take advantage of his own loopholes to impede the LAWFUL ownership of firearms via the bureaucracy. Nothing more. Everything that needs to be illegal is already illegal, he just chooses not to enforce those laws because doing so would actually reduce gun violence, and that is detrimental to his agenda of further punishing law-abiding citizens.

    4. Re:Only in the States by dywolf · · Score: 2

      The Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited, absolute right any more than does the First Amendment.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    5. Re:Only in the States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me see - something like 90% of the American population want tighte controls on guns - certainly a solid majority.

      Cite?

      According to Gallup, 55% of Americans want tighter controls on gun sales. That's a majority, but not a large one. Note that 72% oppose bans, though. http://www.gallup.com/poll/186236/americans-desire-stricter-gun-laws-sharply.aspx

      The President wants to do the right thing, morally and democratically, by introducing some really quite moderate steps to control gun availability.

      Actually, he just wants to look like he's doing that. He didn't actually do anything; his executive order just reaffirmed existing -- and long-standing -- federal law. That's good, because we aren't supposed to be a country where the president can make laws on his own.

      But somehow this is impossible, because one industry, the arms manufaturers, holds the whole country to ransom by paying politicians to oppose anything, however minor, reasonable or even symbolic, that looks like it was against their financial interests.

      You're repeating a common anti-gun talking point, but the fact that it's common doesn't make it true. The talking point, to be more specific, is that the NRA is a front for the gun manufacturers, rather than representing the interests of individuals, and that the NRA fights any sort of gun control. You've added to the common talking point the claim that politicians are paid for their opposition.

      The fallacies in that include:

      1. The NRA is primarily funded by individual donations and membership dues. Dues are about 44% of the NRA's funding, and donations are another 25%.

      2. Pro-gun donations to politicians are actually lower than the anti-gun donations. The NRA wins not with money but with letters and votes. A few hundred thousand of the NRA's members are ready to fire letters and phone calls to their representatives whenever they're asked, and the NRA is good at mobilizing them. The NRA is also good at getting the word out to voters when a politician opposes guns... and there are enough voters that do oppose gun control and do so strongly enough to be almost single-issue voters that they can tip the balance in most races.

    6. Re:Only in the States by moeinvt · · Score: 1

      "something like 90% of the American population want tighte controls on guns"(sic)

      Not sure where you got that info, but it's obvious BS. If the "90%" claim was true, it would be easy for this overwhelming majority to elect anti-gun legislators. Hell, if 90% of the population wanted gun control, even a Constitutional amendment would be feasible!

      "the arms manufacturers [hold] the whole country to ransom"

      Singling out the National Shooting Sports Foundation (the firearms industry trade association and lobbying group) as the poster child for Washington DC corruption is completely absurd. Their expenditures and influence are absolutely negligible compared to the telecom, banking, energy, pharmaceutical and other business lobbies. There's no way that the NSSF could convince legislators to vote against the will of 90% of their constituents. Only the bankers can manage to do that.

      The NRA, a 501c(4), is powerful, not because of lobbying $$$, but because it has over 4.5 million dues-paying members and millions more donors and supporters. If gun control is so popular in the USA, why aren't tens of millions of people joining and contributing to all of the anti-gun groups out there? That would be one way for them to get their voices heard. Anti-gun groups can't even get 4 million people to join for free, let alone get them to pay annual dues to support the cause.

    7. Re:Only in the States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know where you're getting your statistics, but I'm not buying the 90% number. Where I live, gun control means using two hands and hitting what you aim at. We're not extremists, gang bangers or terrorists. We're outdoorsmen. We like to hunt and shoot.

      These so-called controls from Mr. Obama are as ridiculous and impotent as he is.

    8. Re:Only in the States by porksauce · · Score: 1

      Do you have a citation for the 90% figure? I'm genuinely curious, because the stats I could find suggest more of an even split of public opinion. In any case, if public opinion was more decisively in favor of restricting ownership, the most effective way to effect change with that kind of groundswell of support would be a constitutional amendment repealing the 2nd rather than work-arounds or creative interpretation which set dangerous precedent for disregard of other rights.

    9. Re:Only in the States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry, but where did you get this "90%" number? That doesn't jive with the reality I am familiar with, nor recent surveys:

      http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/21/politics/gun-control-poll-americans/

    10. Re:Only in the States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      90%? It's actually much closer to 50%:

      http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/21/politics/gun-control-poll-americans/ (Majority oppose stricter gun control laws)
      http://www.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx (55% in favor of more strict gun control laws)

    11. Re:Only in the States by Haxzaw · · Score: 1

      I don't know where you get 90% of the population want tighter gun controls, I have not seen that figure before. There are other things that kill more people per year than people with guns (because the guns don't kill, people kill), but where's the outrage for those things? To, I guess I'll say most people, guns are scary, because they don't understand them, they don't understand why anyone would want one, and they don't necessarily want to understand. What I want to see is greater punishment for crimes committed with a gun, the way the government did with so called hate crimes. Punishment for people who allow minors to gain unsupervised control of a gun, would also be a great thing. Making it more difficult for law abiding citizens to gain access to a gun is ridiculous, when it is the criminals with guns who kill people. Even if a normally law abiding citizen snaps and kills someone, there are laws already existing to counter that. Just because it is possible that someone will use a gun to kill someone, doesn't mean that no one should have a gun.

    12. Re:Only in the States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the 55% figure drops below 40% when the questioner gives a 15 second summary of the federal laws about selling guns. Look it up. Turns out that a big chunk of the support for "more gun control" is actually support for laws that we already have, but that survey takers are unaware of.

      In my informal surveys (asking strangers to explain what they think the current gun laws are), I've found 3 groups, about equal size. One third knows the laws pretty much exactly, one third vastly underestimates the hurdles, and one third vastly overestimates them.

    13. Re:Only in the States by Orgasmatron · · Score: 1

      The 2nd Amendment was written with much stronger language than the 1st. "Congress shall make no law" is a restriction on Congress. "The Right of the People ... shall not be infringed" is a command to the new Federal entity not to allow anyone else to even nibble around the edges (fringe = edge) of that right.

      Does it say "shall not be infringed by Congress"? Or "shall not be infringed by your state government"? Or does it say "can be infringed, as long as it isn't completely extinguished"?

      No, it doesn't say any of those things. It says shall not be infringed, without qualification.

      At any rate, it was clearly intended at the time it was written to keep infantry weapons, at the very least, in the hands of the citizens, and we have failed at even that low bar. (If you don't know what infantry weapons are, you might want to educate yourself before you demonstrate that ignorance to the public by commenting.)

      --
      See that "Preview" button?
    14. Re:Only in the States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited, absolute right any more than does the First Amendment.

      Do you have a point or are you just going for pithy?

    15. Re:Only in the States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let me see - something like 90% of the American population want tighte controls on guns - certainly a solid majority.

      Depending on how exactly you ask the question, the majority swings either way...

      The President wants to do the right thing, morally and democratically, by introducing some really quite moderate steps to control gun availability.

      How exactly are executive directives "democratic"?

      But somehow this is impossible, because one industry, the arms manufaturers, holds the whole country to ransom by paying politicians to oppose anything, however minor, reasonable or even symbolic, that looks like it was against their financial interests.

      Not really. What they do do, however, is tell gun owners who to vote or not vote for. And then the voters follow that advice. After all, how can the NRA "buy" a recall election by paying politicians?

      And the really, really amazing thing is - these people and their bought politicians are not rounded up and put on trial for corruption. In all other industrialised countries in the world, what Americans call lobbying, would be called by its right name: corruption.

      False. I invite you to read "'Lobbying: Access and Influence in Whitehall" from the UK...

      I won't ask why, and I won't try to argue with people; I know my comments will be attacked wildly and irrationally and I will be called 'troll' and other nice things. It doesn't matter, but I think it is important that people - in this case Americans - with sane, moderate views let their opinions be heards and felt, and that they don't allow the gun extremists to bully them into silence.

      I don't think the "gun extremists" are bullying anyone into silence. There's all sorts of talk about how to silence the "gun extremists" however..

    16. Re:Only in the States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where do you get that unrealistic figure 90%?

    17. Re:Only in the States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The number of people supporting more gun control isn't anywhere close to 90%. It's closer to 50:

      http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/21/politics/gun-control-poll-americans/

    18. Re:Only in the States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      where do you get that 90% figure?

      given that the last time Obama was talking about new gun legislation there was a run a on guns and ammo I rather doubt it's true

    19. Re:Only in the States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How in the seven hells is that modded +5 Insightful?

      > something like 90% of the American population want tighte(sic) controls on guns
      Bullshit. If you want to use numbers, use accurate numbers produced from a legitimate (read: non compromised) source.

      > The President wants to do the right thing, morally and democratically
      Bullshit. The president is making the same boring political power plays he's always made, because he knows he can't get away with anything more.

      > quite moderate steps to control gun availability
      Bullshit. Availability is not the problem. It never will be the problem. Anyone who wants to kill someone else with a gun ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD will be able to do so with little difficulty. This will never change. There are too many guns out there already and more are being built every day than ever before. You cannot realistically control the availability of something that can be produced by literally anyone in a 3rd world country with some sand and basic machining knowledge.

      > one industry, the arms manufaturers(sic), holds the whole country to ransom
      Bullshit. You think the "arms manufaturers(sic)" were responsible for (as an example) Coloradoans getting pissed off and voting out the idiot politicians who passed ridiculous anti-gun laws? it was law-abiding citizens who understand the responsibility and absolute importance of private firearm ownership.

      > anything, however minor, reasonable or even symbolic
      Bullshit. Nothing minor will appreciably "improve" things. Nothing "reasonable" has been suggested because the definition of "reasonable" is completely opposite depending on which side of the argument you associate with. Doing something "symbolic" is utterly pointless and asinine by definition, so why the hell would you even mention it?

      > In all other industrialised(sic) countries in the world, what Americans call lobbying, would be called by its right name: corruption.
      I actually agree with you on this one. Lobbying in ALL FORMS is a cancer that should be cut out of the body and destroyed. Too bad for your argument that the firearm industry spends far, far less than many others such as the entertainment and energy industries.

      > I won't ask why, and I won't try to argue with people; I know my comments will be attacked wildly and irrationally
      You probably should be asking "why" your arguments are being called out and attacked. Maybe the problem is not with the people attacking your (flawed) arguments, but with the arguments themselves. Deciding beforehand that any attacks on your position are "irrational" is an indication that they haven't been thoroughly examined and debate-proofed.

      > Americans - with sane, moderate views let their opinions be heards(sic) and felt, and that they don't allow the gun extremists to bully them into silence.
      Freedom of Speech is a right to shout your opinion at anyone and everyone in hearing distance (and modern mediums support quite a distance, indeed). It does not guarantee that people won't shout back if they disagree with your statements. It's amazing how many people don't understand this. What you call "bullying" others may call "correcting" or even "disagreeing".

    20. Re:Only in the States by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      something
        like 90% of the American population want tighte controls on guns -
      certainly a solid majority.

      Interesting; I wasn't aware that the entire U.S. population had been
      polled on so-called "gun control". I certainly wasn't.

      The President wants to do the right thing, morally and
      democratically

      How is an Executive Order from someone who isn't even a legislator
      considered democratic? Sounds quite like the opposite to me.

      You may not consider my opinion to be sane or moderate, but I think it deserves to be heard, as I won't allow the anti-gun extremists to bully me in to silence. After all, that wouldn't be democratic either.

    21. Re:Only in the States by Orgasmatron · · Score: 1

      > How in the seven hells is that modded +5 Insightful?

      Welcome to slashdot.

      --
      See that "Preview" button?
  81. uhhh by SuperDre · · Score: 3, Insightful

    if you call requiring a license to sell guns the most controversial, then there is something really wrong with you americans.. Any normal thinking person would think requiring a license to sell guns is a good thing, hell even requiring a license to buy a gun is normal thinking...

    1. Re:uhhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason it is controversial is that they're talking about a private seller selling possibly only a single gun, having to go through the months of waiting, thousands of dollars in fees, and the bureaucratic red tape to get a Federal Firearms License (FFL).

      It places an undue burden on someone who is only selling their personally owned firearm.

    2. Re:uhhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you call requiring a license to sell guns the most controversial, then there is something really wrong with you americans.. Any normal thinking person would think requiring a license to sell guns is a good thing, hell even requiring a license to buy a gun is normal thinking...

      In California where I live, every legal purchase, private party or otherwise, has to go through a FFL. In the USA, guns sold by dealers at guns shows or at online retailers go through an FFL. I'm not sure what Obama was referring to when discussing online purchases - was he misinformed or purposely misleading? Now to my main point and thus why I was replying in the first place. Owning a gun is a constitutionally protected right of self protection, state protection, and country protection - not a privilege which would need to be licensed. One does not need a license for a natural right/ civil right.

    3. Re:uhhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      license on buying a gun is how the english lost the right to own weapons, the requirements to get a license kept requiring more and more hoops to be jumped through to the point where getting one was impractible (being armed was common in the uk up to around WWI)

    4. Re:uhhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      THERE IS ALREADY A LICENSE REQUIRED TO SELL GUNS. IT'S CALLED AN FFL.

      Then again, anti-American hipsterism is all the rage nowadays. And "normal thinking"? Get over yourself. Genuine normal thinking requires understanding that inanimate objects have no intentions, only human beings with motivations do. Normal thinking requires understanding that ALL OF NATURE defends itself. Normal thinking requires understanding that being prepared is a more successful strategy than legislating away all possible dangers in the world. Obama doesn't give two shits about reducing violence. He's a corrupt politician misusing the power of his office as a cheap ploy to help the Democrats win the next election. By the way, the last time I checked, Paris is not in the U.S.

  82. I cherish the day I left America by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because of people like you.

    Let's start by saying that I'm generally up for a day at a shooting range... I also like shooting pool... same principle but one is less noisy and I've never had cuts inflicted by mishandling a pool cue filled with GSR and oil which burns for hours.

    So, you honestly think that companies like Colt, S&W, H&K, Glock, etc... given the incentive could not, within a few years develop a smart trigger lock that would equal the reliability of the rest of their firearm? Are these companies operated by a bunch of rednecks that think adding a memory feature to a calculator means tying a string around their finger?

    You probably already own multiple "reliable" firearms. Of course, you appropriately exercise gun safety by storing you firearms in one locked safe and your clips and ammunition in another. You're not some fool who lives his entire life in fear and keeps one loaded by the bed because you honestly believe you can awaken, obtain the weapon, disable the safety, identify your target in the dark... because he/she obviously would choose your bedroom window.. and safely discharge your weapon.... from bed. Only a moron would live their life spending every night fearing for their lives as they slept.

    You're here on Slashdot. I hope that means you're a technologist of some type. If that's the case, it's obviously appropriate to question whether the complexity of such a smart gun device would in fact make the firearm unreliable. The answer is, of course it will. Then you should consider that a firearm is not really a reliable device to begin with. In addition, humans are extremely unreliable, those who believe they can operate calmly and properly aim and shoot within a high stress environment, knowing they are likely to take a human life... they're either full of crap or precisely the people most of the rest of us fear more than the criminals since it makes us realize our society has completely failed when such people are becoming too common.

    The possibility of taking another person's life should always be a bad thing. It should always elevate blood levels... it should always make your hand shake. If it doesn't, you need "putting down" as much as the other guy. It means you lost something that makes you human.

    So... let's go a step further, as a technologist, you also believe this will not stop the criminals and it will be like DRM and simply a matter of googling how to disable the lock and pushing some buttons. There's a difference.

    DRM on non-PC devices held up pretty well. Sure, there are people who intentionally bought DVD players with the region locks removed, but they either needed to have the tools required to flash the units or had to have a 3rd party who did do it for them. DRM on a device like this requires a person to :
    1) Have access to the device
    2) Have access to the tools to reach the diagnostic points of the firearm. These are likely beneath some screws at the very least.
    3) They need to have access to debugging equipment. Sure, an Arduino and maybe one extra chip is probably good enough... but you still need one.
    4) They need to have the ability to build the interface, operate it and get it working.
    5) They will also likely need to test it to make sure it works afterwards... that makes noise.

    Will someone release "Diagnostics tools" on etsy or ebay or something... sure... they'll be readily available... but like the 7 day waiting period... it gives a person a chance to cool down and think it through. I know as an impulse shopper, I often will buy things I don't need because they're in front of me and easy to get access to. If I have to wait for it or mail order it, I probably will think "Do I really need it" or simply forget about it. Even getting the tools to bypass the lock will add enough delay that it might be enough to let the person's temper cool down.

    As for normal criminals, this obviously won't solve that problem... our role is to keep our firearms stored in

    1. Re:I cherish the day I left America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The rest of us cherish that as well. . . .

    2. Re:I cherish the day I left America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because of people like you.

      Let's start by saying that I'm generally up for a day at a shooting range... I also like shooting pool... same principle but one is less noisy and I've never had cuts inflicted by mishandling a pool cue filled with GSR and oil which burns for hours.

      So, you honestly think that companies like Colt, S&W, H&K, Glock, etc... given the incentive could not, within a few years develop a smart trigger lock that would equal the reliability of the rest of their firearm? Are these companies operated by a bunch of rednecks that think adding a memory feature to a calculator means tying a string around their finger?

      You probably already own multiple "reliable" firearms. Of course, you appropriately exercise gun safety by storing you firearms in one locked safe and your clips and ammunition in another. You're not some fool who lives his entire life in fear and keeps one loaded by the bed because you honestly believe you can awaken, obtain the weapon, disable the safety, identify your target in the dark... because he/she obviously would choose your bedroom window.. and safely discharge your weapon.... from bed. Only a moron would live their life spending every night fearing for their lives as they slept.

      You're here on Slashdot. I hope that means you're a technologist of some type. If that's the case, it's obviously appropriate to question whether the complexity of such a smart gun device would in fact make the firearm unreliable. The answer is, of course it will. Then you should consider that a firearm is not really a reliable device to begin with. In addition, humans are extremely unreliable, those who believe they can operate calmly and properly aim and shoot within a high stress environment, knowing they are likely to take a human life... they're either full of crap or precisely the people most of the rest of us fear more than the criminals since it makes us realize our society has completely failed when such people are becoming too common.

      The possibility of taking another person's life should always be a bad thing. It should always elevate blood levels... it should always make your hand shake. If it doesn't, you need "putting down" as much as the other guy. It means you lost something that makes you human.

      So... let's go a step further, as a technologist, you also believe this will not stop the criminals and it will be like DRM and simply a matter of googling how to disable the lock and pushing some buttons. There's a difference.

      DRM on non-PC devices held up pretty well. Sure, there are people who intentionally bought DVD players with the region locks removed, but they either needed to have the tools required to flash the units or had to have a 3rd party who did do it for them. DRM on a device like this requires a person to :

      1) Have access to the device

      2) Have access to the tools to reach the diagnostic points of the firearm. These are likely beneath some screws at the very least.

      3) They need to have access to debugging equipment. Sure, an Arduino and maybe one extra chip is probably good enough... but you still need one.

      4) They need to have the ability to build the interface, operate it and get it working.

      5) They will also likely need to test it to make sure it works afterwards... that makes noise.

      Will someone release "Diagnostics tools" on etsy or ebay or something... sure... they'll be readily available... but like the 7 day waiting period... it gives a person a chance to cool down and think it through. I know as an impulse shopper, I often will buy things I don't need because they're in front of me and easy to get access to. If I have to wait for it or mail order it, I probably will think "Do I really need it" or simply forget about it. Even getting the tools to bypass the lock will add enough delay that it might be enough to let the person's temper cool down.

      As for normal criminals, this obviously won't solve that problem... our role is

    3. Re:I cherish the day I left America by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      As someone who works with semi-conductors every single day, they are nowhere near as reliable as MECHANICAL devices. Its bad enough guns have a mechanical failure rate, now you want to add an ENTIRELY new layer of failure on top of that? No one can make an electronic smart gun without adding an entirely new layer of possible failure on it. It makes no sense at all to do this when the 2nd says i dont have to have it. Mandated Smart Guns will never pass Constitutional muster without repealing the 2nd.

      --
      Good-bye
    4. Re:I cherish the day I left America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no thanks. That whole 'shall not be infringed' thing sorta takes government requirements and bins them.

      And your impugning the intellect or the character of people who DO believe that the right to keep and bear arms is a right and not a privilege just detracts from your argument.

    5. Re:I cherish the day I left America by ooloorie · · Score: 1

      So, you honestly think that companies like Colt, S&W, H&K, Glock, etc... given the incentive could not, within a few years develop a smart trigger lock that would equal the reliability of the rest of their firearm?

      And what would the point be? That obviously won't stop or even reduce criminal uses of firearms. It won't stop suicides by firearm. The only thing it will do is stop accidental injuries and death when children get a hold of a firearm, or when a burglar grabs a gun and tries to shoot the home owner with it. But those cases are fairly rare, and they are stopped just as well by gun safes.

      You're here on Slashdot. I hope that means you're a technologist of some type.

      Yes, and part of being a good technologist is to respect KISS, instead of adding complexity and features where they don't belong.

    6. Re:I cherish the day I left America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your clips

      stopped reading.

    7. Re:I cherish the day I left America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      So if other people don't agree with your sentiment of overengineering, then they aren't "technology lovers"? Get over yourself. Anyone with even slight experience with firearms knows that added complexity reduces reliability. You don't care? Good for you. You're not the center of the universe.
      I'm sick of people automatically associating "evil" with an inanimate object. That's your mental bias and your problem.

      And here we go again with the "you don't need to defend yourself" debate. Breaking it down, this is the typical argument:

      1. "You don't need to defend yourself with a gun. There's no risk of being attacked. (I can see the future and know this ahead of time.)"

      2. "Look at all these people being attacked with guns! That's why we need gun control!"

      See the contradiction? If you're honest, you will.

      Here are counterpoints:

      1. I'm a programmer, and even (or especially) I don't trust my computer. Governments worldwide have backdoored and tampered with almost every digital device. If you're truly a "technologist", then you should understand why people don't want to trust digital devices on tools that are meant to be life-savers in extreme circumstances of last resort. Reliability is not merely a matter of "breaking". It can also be a matter of being in control by adversaries who want to intentionally disable it. Remember the "internet kill switch" debates? Remember how governments sabotage connectivity of cell phones and other devices to censor dissidents?

      2. Being armed is not a statement that people are surrounded by violence or expecting violence. It does not mean that they live in a bad place "where you wouldn't want to live". That's the argument of the ignorant. I wear a seatbelt when I drive. I may never get into a bad accident in my life, but that's not going to make me stop wearing a seatbelt. Also, relying on being lucky is not proper risk management. That's common sense. No matter where you live, your situation can change in an instant. Natural disaster? Say hello to looters. Civil unrest? Refugees? Religious extremists and other terrorists? These can all happen anywhere in the world at any time. Past luck is no guarantee about the future.

      3. The purpose of a weapon is an imbalance of power. When an attacker attacks, they are granted the ability to take something from you (e.g. your life, property, freedom) only as long as that imbalance exists. Otherwise, they don't have the force to control you. If both sides are equally armed, then there is a stalemate (which is ideal), because then it makes no sense for anyone to attack anyone else. In such a case, even the irrational people that try are unable to get very far because it's not up to them. With digital crippleware (which is what a "smart gun" is designed to be: a way to cripple the gun), this opens up even more ways to shift the balance of power to criminals and oppressive governments. You believe your government only has your best interests at heart? That's cute.

      4. Actually look at the mass shootings. Question: how many shots were *fired back*? In most cases: Zero. Notice the media never talks about that part. Locations like schools are BY LAW, mandated by the government for citizens to be defenseless. If you're an attacker that wants the greatest body count, where does a weapon (any weapon) give you the greatest imbalance of power? Answer: anywhere where people are guaranteed to be helpless.

      5. Police can't possibly be everywhere you are to protect you, and government is not always on your side. Don't criticize people who decide to be responsible for their own lives rather than asking the government to be responsible for their lives instead. In reality, the real reason (anywhere) that there is higher or lower violent crime is determined by motivation. If people want to be violent, they will be, regardless. If people don't want to be violent, then whether they are armed or not is irrelevant. They aren't the ones causing a problem.

      6. If I'm armed, I have the *option* to defend myself.

    8. Re:I cherish the day I left America by thoromyr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Handguns are the typical home defense weapon. They are unsuitable for several reasons.

          - accuracy is limited to non-existent. Shooting on a range has nothing whatsoever to do with shooting in a stressful situation. Any firearm is bad, but the only thing worse than a handgun is a derringer.

          - threat to the environment. Every missed shot still goes somewhere and most calibers considered useful for home defense have significant penetration in a domestic environment. It is vanishingly unlikely to hit another person, but it is still possible.

          - lethality is insufficient. I've been an aficionado of firearms for over thirty years so I am very familiar with all of the mythology that goes around gun circles as well as the belief system that justifies firearms as home defense.[1] The reality is that the trauma of a gunshot may temporarily "drop" someone (who will ultimately die from the wound), but adrenaline permits continued functioning.

          - unsafe if available. In order to be useful during a midnight home invasion the firearm must be ready to hand and ready to use. Which means it is not locked in a gun safe with ammunition locked separately. Most deaths from "home defense" firearms come from accidental discharge where these rules are not followed.

      If I was going to advocate for a firearm for home defense I would argue for a "shot pistol" -- you want a short enough barrel to not constrain the pellets to maximize spread. This helps to offset the accuracy issue. The rapid energy loss associated with pellets helps to reduce threat to the environment. Of course, you still have the issues of lethality and safety.

      Shooting firearms is fun (I've put a *lot* of rounds down range and fired a pretty wide variety -- everything from a buffalo rifle to a derringer to various handguns, rifles, shotguns, submachine guns, assault rifles and machine guns. So I *know* it is fun to shoot. I also don't pretend that a handgun is good for home defense.

      1) The funny thing is that many of these are contradictory -- like the urban mythology about criminals high on PCP ignoring tens (or even hundreds) of shots, and then believing that you are at risk from someone like that *and* believing you can shoot them fifty to a hundred times (with a weapon unlikely to hold more than eighteen rounds) before "they get you".

    9. Re:I cherish the day I left America by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Yes, give you time to get your securely stored gun. 9 times out of 10, a ball bat is a better tool to dispel intruders.

    10. Re:I cherish the day I left America by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Guns are not a defensive weapon, they are offensive. They can allow you to go on the offensive against an attacker, which could be construed as a type of defense, but guns are not defensive.

    11. Re: I cherish the day I left America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to the people who holstered their guns until they needed them. Tell that to those same people who have saved lives using those holstered guns.

      I've heard countless stories of people stopping robberies because they've had guns on them concealed and ready. A gun is 100x a defensive weapon. It's also 100x an offensive weapon.

      If I shoot in the air and it scares a person away who would have robbed me, that's a defensive measure.

    12. Re:I cherish the day I left America by cfalcon · · Score: 0

      Just because a home invasion is really rare doesn't mean that preparing for it isn't wise, or that having a gun ready to go is unwise. When gun grabbers try to talk us out of guns, they commit two giant gaps when trying to present data: the first is, they always count suicides as "gun deaths" (the majority of gun deaths are suicides, and as such a worthless comparison), and the second one is, they never count cases where the gun is a lawful deterrent and isn't actually used.

      If the really rare home invasion happens, and you have your gun ready, a common situation is now that the home invader leaves. You just ramped up the difficulty of whatever the hell he was there for, after all.

      A home invasion is rare, and a home invasion where a gun does NOT help you out is almost unheard of. I don't know how important it is to have a gun by your bedsides, but I'd sure take them odds over the one where I don't have a gun.

      And just why does every leftist argument assume that the home invader sneaks in and is standing over the bed (constructed such that the gun doesn't help you)? Don't you have dogs in communist New York?

    13. Re:I cherish the day I left America by cfalcon · · Score: 1

      Some guns are better at defensive use, others at offensive use. A defensive gun will be sighted for close range, able to be brought to bear quickly, etc. But any gun can be used for self defense.

    14. Re:I cherish the day I left America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >You're not some fool who lives his entire life in fear and keeps one loaded by the bed because you honestly believe you can awaken, obtain the weapon, disable the safety, identify your target in the dark... because he/she obviously would choose your bedroom window.. and safely discharge your weapon

      Breaking it down Barney Style doesn't complicate it. You're the fool here if you cannot easily accomplish those tasks.

    15. Re:I cherish the day I left America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wow, we really are glad that you left the US. Please renounce your citizenship and burn your passport. If you could get all of the other little shits like you to leave as well, that would be swell. I'm sorry, but it's not that you are ignorant, but that you "know" things that are simply untrue and are hateful and malicious towards those of different opinion than yourself, something that is truly un-American, but I am sure you fit right in in Europe.

      First, a few outright lies:

      "Firearms are not reliable" I am sorry, but your utter incompetence does not equate to un-reliable firearms. Firearms are the most reliable method for killing something known to exist. This is why the police carry them, this is why every military on the planet caries them. Your assertion is invalid and ignorant in the extreme.

      "living in fear/firearm next to bed/broken window in bedroom" This is a straw man argument. Every home invasion is different. I do not keep a gun secured next to my bed out of fear, but for the same reason that I have several fire extinguishers in my home, as well as extra drinking water and food. Just as fires and natural disasters may happen, so too may a home invasion or other event requiring the use of force. A tornado or earthquake might level my house and crush me while I sleep, but that doesn't mean that I don't prepare as best I can. Statistically 98% of home invasions are stopped by an armed home owner, usually without a shot ever being fired (those odds are a hell of a lot better than having a bat or knife by the way). The anti-gun lobby in the US has worked as hard as they can to obscure and conceal this fact. They prevent the collection of these statistics by the FBI, and they try to lump all deaths, perpetrator as well as victim, together to cloud the issue. The pro gun lobby has tried for years to improve the quality of the stats, but the gun grabbers fight tooth and nail to prevent clearer stats. If guns are really so bad, why do they fight so hard to prevent clear stats from coming out? The reality is that someone attempting to climb in a window or through a broken door coming face to face with a loaded gun sends them out the way they came almost all of the time. Are there circumstances where being armed is not enough? Sure, but the odds are clearly in my favor.

      Here is a bit of education for you to help un-brainwash you from you liberal "education":

      The reality is that there are over 300,000,000 guns in the US owned by 80,000,000 law abiding citizens. Guns used in violent crimes and murders are 96% of the time stolen or black market guns (which are always modified for criminal use anyway, so smart guns do nothing for the real problem). We have the highest per-capita private gun ownership on the planet, yet we are ranked #103 in the world on intentional homicides (out of 180ish countries). If you remove the gun free zone liberal bastions of Chicago, New Orleans, Washington DC and Detroit, we are 4th from the bottom of gun homicides of all countries as well even though by far we have the most guns. The reality is that law abiding citizens owning guns is a significant net positive for the community, personal safety and national security.

      The reason that law abiding citizens are up in arms (pun intended) over gun control, is that we know either instinctively or by research that guns save lives. The stats show that every year guns are used over 80:1 more often to save a life/stop a crime than murder/suicide/accidental death. 200,000 plus times each year guns are used by women to prevent/stop a sexual assault. For all of you liberals out there, in the gun free UK there are 2034 violent crimes/100k people. In the US, we have 466/100k violent crimes. Over 4x the violent crime in the UK, and they have no guns. The criminals just use other means most of the time, and the citizens are unarmed sheep.

      The real intent of the gun grabbers is the dis-armament of the citizenry in the US. As Hitler, Mao, Stalin et all showed, once you disarm the populat

    16. Re:I cherish the day I left America by chihowa · · Score: 1

      If I was going to advocate for a firearm for home defense I would argue for a "shot pistol" -- you want a short enough barrel to not constrain the pellets to maximize spread. This helps to offset the accuracy issue. The rapid energy loss associated with pellets helps to reduce threat to the environment. Of course, you still have the issues of lethality and safety.

      That's a terrible idea for so many reasons!

      Firstly, the spread of a load of shot has almost no relation to the length of the barrel. It's almost entirely dependent on the choke of the barrel, and even when it starts to affect the spread it's not that bug of an effect at short range. Even if a short barrel gave you enough spread that aiming didn't matter, to effectively create your cone of death you'd either have to use shot so fine that it would have a hard time penetrating skin or such a huge number of large pellets that the cartridge would be huge and the recoil would be brutal (shooting a Lupara hurts, and it has more weight and two hands to distribute the recoil to).

      Secondly, even with a shotgun, you still have to actually point the gun at the target. It doesn't really create a wide angle "cone of death". A long gun is easier to aim, especially in stressful situations.

      People like pistols because they're small, cheap(er) to buy, and cheap to practice with. A shorter barrel shotgun is probably the ideal home defense weapon, mostly because of the over-penetration issues of rifles.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    17. Re: I cherish the day I left America by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      What happens to the bullet you shoot in the air?

      You're a menace to society if you do that.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    18. Re:I cherish the day I left America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually again, it is. If you are still using a lock and key safe, try upgrading to a bio metric safe. It takes a few seconds.

    19. Re:I cherish the day I left America by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Yes, you can defend with an offensive weapon. That does not make it a defensive tool. It's still an offensive tool. Guns can only be used to attack or threaten attack (offense).

    20. Re:I cherish the day I left America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is completely wrong. Guns are neither defensive nor offensive by themselves. Only the purpose they are put to can be defined that way.

    21. Re:I cherish the day I left America by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You actually don't seem very familiar with firearms.

      Point shooting is a thing, and works, in close quarters. Professsionals do it all the time, and it doesn't take as much practice as you're going to claim it does.

      Right, I should let someone butcher me because I MIGHT miss and that shot MIGHT hurt someone else. Once a fight starts, safety is analog, not binary.

      Lethality varies by caliber, circumstances and individual. Bob Dole is a case example that multiple rounds from an MG42 machine gun in 7.92mm are not lethal, but I wouldn't want to duplicate the results.

      You will need to provide a cite for this ludicrous claim. There are plenty of ways to have a loaded gun at hand, and your claim on ADs is going to be a very low number, on the close order of 0.

      Shot doesn't work that way, at all. At ranges of a few feet, the shot won't expand more than an inch or two, and with pellets that small is barely more than a sting. A full bore 20 gauge didn't stop Cheney's hunting partner.

      And if you believe in the myth that one can have a lethal weapon that doesn't penetrate walls, you really shouldn't be commenting.

      The only people who'll believe you are as ignorant of weapons as you seem to be.

      Shut up, troll.

    22. Re:I cherish the day I left America by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      You're not some fool who lives his entire life in fear and keeps one loaded by the bed because you honestly believe you can awaken, obtain the weapon, disable the safety, identify your target in the dark... because he/she obviously would choose your bedroom window.. and safely discharge your weapon.... from bed. Only a moron would live their life spending every night fearing for their lives as they slept. O jeebuz Cryst on a kalishnakov THIS!

      A coworker had a husband who slept with a loaded 45 under his pillow, always at the ready to protect himself. Was not good for the marriage at all, he was so fearful that someone was going to break into the bedroom, and she was terrified at having that piece in the bed. As his paranoia grew, their love lice was inversely affected. But the fear - and make no mistake, it is raw naked fear that has people do this kind of shit should not be the metric.

      You nalied it on the groggy person trying to protect himself after being woken up.

      I kinda figure if somoene wants to snuff me in my sleep, it's going to happen. Meanwhile, for actual protection if you needed it, a pump shotgun is kinda handy. The DP-12 looks pretty interesting.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    23. Re:I cherish the day I left America by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Handguns are the typical home defense weapon. They are unsuitable for several reasons.

      - accuracy is limited to non-existent. Shooting on a range has nothing whatsoever to do with shooting in a stressful situation. Any firearm is bad, but the only thing worse than a handgun is a derringer.

      Wow, a voice of reason. Abso-fricking-lutley correct! I have been trying to promote the concept of a pump shotgun to no avail. But remember, the people who are so fearful that they think that 45 under their bed is going to protect them aren't all that smart anyhow, so its a losing battle.

      Every missed shot still goes somewhere and most calibers considered useful for home defense have significant penetration in a domestic environment. It is vanishingly unlikely to hit another person, but it is still possible.

      As well as make for a lot of cleanup. There was a case just recently where a woan a floor below the scene of an altercation was killed by a stray.

      If I was going to advocate for a firearm for home defense I would argue for a "shot pistol" -- you want a short enough barrel to not constrain the pellets to maximize spread.

      This would be like a Judge?

      Shooting firearms is fun (I've put a *lot* of rounds down range and fired a pretty wide variety -- everything from a buffalo rifle to a derringer to various handguns, rifles, shotguns, submachine guns, assault rifles and machine guns. So I *know* it is fun to shoot.

      Hell yeah! I wonder if others find something similar to my reaction. When I'm on a range, I find myself becoming calm and relaxed to the point of entering a complete zone, a little similar to running past "the wall", but both relaxed and incredibly attentive at the same time, instead of the mindless zone of running past the wall. Beats the hell out of drugs for certain. But I'm not confident a fear based gun lust can ever achieve that state. But yeah, the son and I go out for a little super relaxing range time now and again.

      My goal in using a firearm and specifically a pump shotgun for protection is first to never have to use it. Second, There is an unmistakable sound a pump shotgun makes that gets a person's attention. Hopefully anyone breaking and entering will think better of it, and scoot. Third - the last thing I ever want to do is shoot someone, bad guy or not. Some of these fear based guys seem to be itching to kill someone.

      But I'm encouraged that there is another person here that doesn't go apeshit when discussing this kind of stuff.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  83. Smart gun types by Firethorn · · Score: 4, Informative

    Unless the police and military adopt smart gun technology, then you arent going to get civilians to adopt it.

    This is my stand on it. Thus far every 'smart gun' proposal has had even the most anti-gun police department lobby incredibly hard to make sure they were completely exempt from it. Despite police officers having a known rate for being killed by their own firearms taken away from them. It's something like 3 a year.

    Personally, I figure that any criminal who manages to gain a firearm will also manage to unlock or rekey it to himself given time, if not bypass the system completely, so it's only useful in the 'immediate' time frame.

    Anyways, I've done some research on this. Thus far, I'm familiar with 3 types of 'smart gun'.
    First, the oldest. Known as 'Magna-Trigger', this system uses a magnetic ring worn on a finger as a safety. Advantages: Non-electronic, reliable, fairly cheap(~$500 for complete setup), works through gloves and such. Has actually saved officer lives. Disadvantages: Only available for a few makes of firearm, it's a retrofit. The 'keys' are actually universal - if you have a magna-trigger ring, you can fire any magna-trigger firearm. So if a criminal manages to disable an officer, take the firearm AND the ring, he can fire the gun. If you want to be able to fire with either hand without moving the ring, you need to buy 2 rings($60 each).
    Second, RFID - either a ring or a watch. Substantially more expensive, I only know of models that fire .22LR, and that kicks a pistol that should cost under $400 up over $2,000, plus the watch is another $800 or something crazy like that. Upside - still generally reliable, you get a pimping watch. Downsides - from the description, if you're struggling for control of the firearm you've likely activated it. IE the criminal who has taken it from you can still shoot you with it as long as he or you doesn't move away quickly enough. If you're instinctively trying to grab the gun, your hand/wrist is likely close enough to arm the pistol.
    Third - fingerprint. Just as expensive as RFID. Has the advantage that it doesn't require other equipment. On the other hand, the finger scanners tend to be fiddly - work about half the time per read even when clean, and if they're dirty, good luck. The reader generally mucks with the ergonomics of the pistol - it's no longer as comfortable to hold. Also only available in .22lr. Can't be used while wearing gloves, or when it's too cold/hot out.

    A note on the .22lr thing: When I did some math, I figured that going to 9mm, the most common self-defense round, and about the lightest of the 'most common 5', I figured that the electronics of any 'smart' gun are likely to experience about an order of magnitude more shock with each firing - shock being a rapid change in acceleration. Combine this with a demand that the device would have to withstand tens of thousands of these shocks, and I wouldn't be surprised if the main reason they're only offered in .22lr wasn't that the maker has to start somewhere - but because anything heavier rapidly killed the electronics.

    Summary: No way in hell are the police, or anybody else interested in protecting things, voluntarily taking them anytime soon.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:Smart gun types by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 1

      You forgot the most important part: Putting a battery into a gun. The magnetic one might get around this, but the RFID and Fingerprint options would have you relying on a small battery. Even if you don't need to shoot, how many of you have opened up a battery case to discover that one has corroded and damaged your device? How great would that be to discover that your firearm now has a corrosive item included in it?

      --
      Out of modpoints but really liked a post? 1BDkF6TtmmeZ3yqXbz9yhdYVqRYnwFoXDj
    2. Re:Smart gun types by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given how often I lock myself out of my smart phone with misread fingerprints due to position, sweat, dirt, etc. there is no way in hell I would rely on one for something I need to protect my life.

    3. Re:Smart gun types by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Even if you don't need to shoot, how many of you have opened up a battery case to discover that one has corroded and damaged your device?

      Once. In a device that I had forgotten about for over a decade. They make batteries that won't leak, but running out of juice is a concern even if it can operate on a single coin cell for over a year.

      There's actually lots of batteries in gun accessories - flashlights, even some scopes. But those tend to be around AA sized.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    4. Re:Smart gun types by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Let the market decide.

    5. Re:Smart gun types by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      I'd love for that to be the case, unfortunately New Jersey made that impossible.

      Basically, 30 months after a smart gun is available for sale ANYWHERE in the USA, ALL firearms sold in New Jersey MUST be smart.

      Imagine what developers of self-driving cars would face from professional and recreational drivers if there was a similar law stating that ALL cars sold must be self-driving less than 3 years after the first one hits the market, no matter how lousy it is. BTW, the police are exempt from the mandate.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    6. Re:Smart gun types by RockDoctor · · Score: 1
      I thought that you gun nuts were arguing that "all gun nuts are serious sober people who do their marksmanship classes and maintain their weapon properly". But now they're also dribbling idiots who can't remember to check and change a battery when they take their lethal tool out of it's storage safe.

      Which way do you want it? Proper maintenance of the weapon, or dribbling idiot?

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  84. Look at the root by wkwilley2 · · Score: 1

    What if we just started holding people accountable for their actions?

    If someone gets stabbed, no one blames the knife they used.

    So why is it that when someone get's shot it's all "ERMAGERD we have a gun problem guys?"

    --
    Have you ever fallen asleep at the keybhanusdiog?
    1. Re:Look at the root by dywolf · · Score: 2

      Because guns are responsible for 2/3 of all homicides, easy to obtain, more reliably fatal than pretty much any other method of homicide, and because nearly every other civilized nation on Earth has shown that it's a fixable problem .

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    2. Re:Look at the root by mishehu · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes, and if you take away all guns then that 2/3 of the homicide pie that you claim just magically disappears, and nobody goes for another deadly instrument to commit homicide...

    3. Re:Look at the root by wkwilley2 · · Score: 1

      Yeah weapon bans work so well for countries because criminals obey the law right?

      Look how well that has worked out in Australia. Since their mandatory gun confiscation, gun related homicides are up nearly 50%.

      Guns aren't the problem. Idiots with guns and lawmakers with an agenda are.

      --
      Have you ever fallen asleep at the keybhanusdiog?
    4. Re:Look at the root by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there's 3341 counties in america, discounting the 30 counties where's gang related gun violence is common (and of the charts) the number of homocides in america is at just about the same level as that of the rest of the western countries

  85. Re: Safety Device? by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

    You'd be safer if all the guns didn't work.

    --
    If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
  86. Re: Safety Device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Notice the weasel words that imply that you'll accidentally shoot yourself. If you discount suicides, the numbers are vastly different- and yes, you should definitely discount suicides, who will, absent a gun, find a different way of offing themselves.

  87. There are no internet sales & no gun show loop by moeinvt · · Score: 1

    It is illegal to buy a gun "over the internet" (as in provide your address and CC# and have the item delivered to your door). You can of course use the internet to advertise firearms for sale, but they can only be shipped to a licensed dealer. The dealer is then required to perform a background check before turning it over to the buyer.
    As for gun shows, all sales are subject to the exact same regulations (including background checks) that apply in a gun store. There is no "gun show loophole". Renting a space at a gun show is expensive, so all the tables and displays you see are set up by licensed dealers.
    You can purchase a gun in a private transaction, but buyer and seller must meet face-to-face. No background check is required, but there are still many applicable laws. e.g. No sales of long guns to people under 18, no handgun sales to anyone under 21, no handgun sales to people from other states, etc. A more appropriate term for this type of thing would be the "Classified Ads Loophole".

  88. Get the popcorn out by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    This promises to be a good show.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  89. Interesting, but not going anywhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not clear whether this solves any problems.

    More than half of all firearm deaths are suicides, I would expect that most are with the owner's firearm. So this smart gun won't work for that case.
    People point to the "it will keep kids from accidentally shooting someone", but a)that's a pretty small number of events and b)there are existing easy, cheap ways to solve that: existing locks work quite nicely for this.

    Whatever mechanism has to be easily changeable, so that you can sell,give, transfer the weapon to someone else without needing to "send it back to the authorized service center". If it's changeable at home, then a "bad guy" can also change it. I suppose someone could make a "requires 1 hour to enable after change" kind of thing.

    Fingerprints are a losing proposition:
    1) gloves
    2) 2% of the population has unreadable fingerprints (not always the same 2%, but a fingerprint reader will fail on 2 out of 100 reads)

    If you're worried about the "bad guy takes police gun" then one of the magnetic ring schemes might work: they're simple, mechanical, and probably address 99% of the cases.

  90. Re: Safety Device? by Ksevio · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Statistically, you're safer if your gun doesn't work.

  91. Re:NOT far enough by tehcyder · · Score: 1

    I live in a rural area where pretty much everybody owns multiple guns, and a great many carry them as a matter of routine.

    In rural areas of the UK most farmers and a lot of other people have guns for pest control, hunting or whatever. What they don't do is stick a shotgun down their trousers when they go to a pub.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  92. The "most controversial" item is already law. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People who are in the business of selling firearms already have to have a FFL and conduct background checks regardless if at a gun show or online. If you buy a gun online they have to ship it to your local FFL where they do a background check before you can take it home. It has been this way for decades.

  93. Re:NOT far enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You clearly don't live in an area with deer. And why would you poison perfectly good food?

  94. Re:NOT far enough by bonehead · · Score: 1

    Yeah, nobody around here does that, either.

  95. Gun idolatry vs DNA, Y-Chromosomes and SQUID fMRI. by An+dochasac · · Score: 1

    So your hypothetical choices would be to die by the shooter or die trying to save yourself from the shooter should your DNA lock idea become a reality. And No, this isn't some strawman remark...

    Why not? The shooter in Newtown stole the guns from his mother after killing her. His DNA would most likely have been in the database. The guy in Washington state purchased them legally, and the recent ones in California all were purchased by a neighbor and given to them..

    It's more than likely that in any of those situations the gun's master database would have allowed the mass shootings.

    Those who practice the religion of Gun Idolatry have a peculiarly anachronistic worldview. They apply 17th century law in-situ to 21st century killing technology but reject 250 years of advancement in safety technology. They remind me of the motorcyclists who come up with all sorts of strawmen arguments against helmets or drivers who rejected seatbelts and airbags.

    Beyond the obvious improvements such as RFID/fingerprinting (already used by hundreds of millions of people to preserve money but not yet to preserve life). We could have a DNA whitelist a no-fire blacklist and something inspired by Frank Herbert's The White Plague, a device to detect whether the trigger finger has an XX chromosome (female) or XY (male.) While this is a disturbing idea to western minds, imagine what an equalizer it would be in parts of the world dominated by violent people with Y chromosomes. Yet another possibility is SQUID fMRI or face emotional recognition to detect the patterns associated with psychopathy.

    While we're constructing straw-men situations for the exceedingly rare situations where guns save lives, let's imagine what would have happened if the guns left behind in Iraq and Afghanistan had been useless to anyone with a Y chromosome. It might not have saved the world but it's difficult to imagine that things would be any worse.

  96. Re:NOT far enough by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

    Yeah, because clearly the criminal that is planning to use a gun for murder is going to worry about the charge from possession of a firearm in your magical fairy world where 20% of the Bill of Rights gets repealed.

    --
    Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  97. Re:NOT far enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Right.. when that day comes you're going to throw your life away for your precious, precious gun. Smart.

  98. Re:NOT far enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clearly you know the truth because you've types words on a website. Why wait? Test your theory now. You want 'em, come and take 'em.

  99. Wrong: NRA is a hyrbid by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    Unlike most issue groups, the NRA is 2-in-1 in that it is both a corporate lobbyist organization AND an citizen activist organization.

    They have tons of money, corporate influence in addition to a huge membership of many gullible suckers.

    People think the oil industry is powerful--- just imagine if they created a "Motorists of America" front group to get boots on the ground protesting industry positions under false characterizations like the NRA routinely does.

  100. Re:NOT far enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And that is making the very naive assumption that police and military will comply with the order to confiscate guns from people who have broken no law otherwise. Guess what, people go into armed forces because they LIKE GUNS and support those who also enjoy them.

  101. Act of WAR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obama's actions are an act of civil war. Anonymous and many others previously warned him and Congress and the Courts that any attempt to further infringe would be an act of civil war.

    RESIST!

    Do not comply with it at all. You are an individual, so no license is required, and mr. Obama's executive order is not a law so ignore it.

    If ATF or anybody else tries to enforce it, then those enforcers are criminals engaged in a crime; treat them accordingly.

  102. Re:NOT far enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Georgetown historian and favorite of Bill Clinton, Carroll Quigley concludes, from a historical study of weapons and political dynamics, that the characteristics of weapons are the main predictor of democracy. Democracy tends to emerge only when the best weapons available are easy for individuals to buy and use. This explains why democracy is so rare in human history.

    The best weapons haven't be available for individuals to purchase since World War II. But democracy has flourished: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy#Post-World_War_II

  103. I'll take my chances by tacokill · · Score: 1

    Let's see......have a gun and fire back, risking that police will incorrectly ID me as the suspect vs not having a gun and getting killed by said suspect.

    I'm gonna go with option A, Alex.

  104. Moebius loop: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See US; gun control debate.

  105. Re: Safety Device? by cfalcon · · Score: 1

    It's so well documented you can't be bothered to post a link.

    Remember: when counting how safe something is, you don't count suicides.

  106. Re:NOT far enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have obviously never lived in a rural, wooded area. I drive the speed limit or slower at night when the deer are likely to be out and I still average four sightings a week and about three close calls a year. I've only hit one deer in 20+ years of living here, and my wife hit one in the same time period.

    Deer are beautiful, tasty animals, but they are not overly bright. Maybe we need to clear more of the woods so there is a wider cleared area close to the edges of the roads, but the current state of the the roads in SC is such that deer accidents are a problem.

    Poisoning them is not a good solution unless you intend to kill off buzzards as well. Also, you'd have to ban hunting deer entirely in that case because if the poison doesn't kill the deer it could at least make anyone eating the venison quite sick.

  107. Re: Safety Device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's right. Humanity lived in harmony before the invention of the musket. Murder, suicide, war, and accidental death was almost unheard of. /s

  108. Re:NOT far enough by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    I don't think that really applies anymore, myself, but there's a big problem for the US if it does.

    It is not easy for individuals to get the best weapons available. You can't just go out and just buy a standard Army rifle, even with a background check. It's illegal to get a weapon capable of automatic fire that was made after some date in 1986. There are limited exceptions allowed for the movie industry.

    That, in my opinion, was the time when the Second Amendment was disregarded.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  109. OP needs to understand how American laws work by satcomjimmy · · Score: 1

    "requires licenses for those who sell guns at gun shows and on the internet, and forces background checks on buyers" = He cannot legally Require this, so he is creating a buzz around a gray area where you may be illegally pulled into a court fight funded by your own taxes in which they know they won't win but will still drain you in legal fees to make your life hard. "Obama is requiring the departments of Defense, Justice, and Homeland Security to investigate smart gun technology" = He is requesting that they do and hoping that an opposition Congress will fund this Bullshit that consumers have already rejected which he knows he has no legal authority to implement. Little to nothing other than an unintentional consequence of making more of us FFL licensed gun dealers and further propagating gun ownership in America will come of this.

  110. Re:NOT far enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clearly you know the truth because you've types words on a website.

    The truth is Americans will stand up against gun control because having a gun makes them feel tough, but they do nothing when it comes to all manner of other civil liberties violations. The whole point of the 2nd amendment was to prevent civil liberties violations by the government by enabling citizens to have guns, but the governments have realized that allowing citizens to have guns is fine because they're too chicken shit to actually use them to prevent civil liberties violations anyway, they just end up killing eachother with them.

    You just like all this intrusive government surveillance do you? You like all these anti-terror acts that strip you of your rights because you didn't do anything about it?

  111. Employments News & Education Updates India by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Awesome post...
    http://indguru.com/

  112. Re: Safety Device? by jeremyp · · Score: 1
    --
    All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
  113. So you want terrorists and criminals armed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    By that you will make it easier for criminals (who should not have guns) to hide the armouries that hold their weapons, because the RFID will be unable to be found in an investigation on a suspected criminal's property. You will make it easier for terrorists to carry concealed weapons into public spaces. All because some nigger who thinks he's president made some half-assed tiny efforts to control gun ownership and make it harder for criminals and terrorists and the insane (and for the latter spend money on making them NOT INSANE rather than just pretending they don't exist as a cost cutting exercise) because you are in love with your guns (but not enough to join the reservists or the ACTUAL army, of course!).

    Classy.

  114. Re: Safety Device? by Yunzil · · Score: 1

    I really don't care if my gun is safe.

    Congratulations, you are part of the problem. How does it feel?

  115. Re:Gun idolatry vs DNA, Y-Chromosomes and SQUID fM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can see the headlines about innocent men being robbed at gunpoint by extremist women....

    Seriously though, women can suicide bombers. Women can be violent, radical wackos. Having a check on which chromosome you have is not any guarantee innocent people won't die at the hands of wackos. Thinking otherwise is just sexism.

  116. Consider the use by FreedomFirstThenPeac · · Score: 1

    A simple gedankenexperiment. Would you want your fire extinguisher to have a biometric thumbprint safety switch powered by a battery that you forgot to change? Or that required up to 3 tries before it locked you out for 15 minutes?

    --
    "There is no god but allah" - well, they got it half right.
    1. Re:Consider the use by messymerry · · Score: 1

      The gun question can be answered pretty simply and within reasonable bounds of the constitution: The people should be able to arm themselves to the level of the *****CIVILIAN POLICE******. So, whatever the oinkers can have, we can have too. Where they can carry, we can carry too. ...and we DON'T need their permission to keep and bear arms.

      --
      Dear Microlimp: I give you 2 valid product keys for win7 and you reject both of them. Piss off you wankers!!!
  117. This is a 15 year old failure by Contract+Gypsy · · Score: 0

    The technology was easy, put a 1 wire dallas key in a ring and a reader in the gun, technically it WORKED! Then the lawyers looked at the FMEAs from the Engineers and realized they would get sued for every person shot that was carrying one. Why you ask? The battery died, forgot to put on my ring and so on. Of course the numb nuts that create our laws will give the manufacturers a pass on liability. End result your firearm is far less reliable than ever before... just what the Gov. wants!

    --
    Life is in a state of dynamic equilibrium, it both blows and sucks
  118. Nothing new or smart about smart guns by carbonates · · Score: 1

    They already exist and they already have been found lacking. Just like 'runaway acceleration' for cars did not exist until digital technology was added to a car's drivetrain, replacing manual shifting mechanisms, and many deaths have resulted, adding digital controls to guns will produce unwanted effects, such as not firing when needed, or firing when not expected due to added complexity. I suspect common adaptation of smart guns will result in new and unexpected dangers that do not exist with a mechanical gun. Will a smart gun fire after being submerged in water? Will a smart gun fire when I have to use my left hand because a criminal is controlling my right hand or has just chopped it off? Will a smart gun work at 40F below zero? Or at 130 degrees F? Will a smart gun fail and fire more than once when I only expected it to fire once? I'll keep my mechanical trigger mechanism and mechanical safety mechanism, and mechanical safe for storing it (and my manual transmission), thank you.

    As for the gun show loopholes, I already know that many of the few and rare private sellers that sell at gunshows do not expect this new regulation to affect them. They are already exempt, just as they are now. This is all just political theater, designed to pander to the left and villify the right. Otherwise, tears would not be needed during a press conference.

  119. Re: Safety Device? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Statistically, you have no idea what you're talking about.

    I'll prove it.

    Please summarize briefly the relationship between the National Defense Act of 1916 and the NY SAFE Act.

    Which method of self defense does the Uniform Crime Reports of the DoJ document as being most effective? How effective is it?

    What is the difference between blowback and recoil operation?

    You don't know, and you're bleating soundbites.

  120. We need more guns by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Democrats/commies are going to once again try find a reason to take away God given right to guns. The solution to reducing gun violence isn't regulation and utilization of technology to improve something. The solution is create an even more extreme gap between rich and poor and make sure every... everyone.. has a gun, As everyone sensible knows giving more guns always equals greater safety. We should equip kindergarten kids with AA-12. Do it for the children.

  121. Re: Safety Device? by bonehead · · Score: 1

    How am I part of the problem? Simply because I am more concerned about damage to my body than I am about damage to a useful hunk of steel?

    If a gun gets destroyed, I can simply get another one. If my body gets destroyed, not so much.

  122. From the same people who came up with... by anti-disney · · Score: 1

    This is the same government that created TSA approved locks to protect your belongings that can easily be defeated and opened and the same government who wants to build back doors into encryption. The back door in TSA approved locks rendered these locks useless and any back door in encryption will most likely render encryption worthless. The government will eventually mandate that all guns manufactured by build with this smart gun technology not giving consumers a choice between buying a "dumb" gun instead of the worthless smart gun. We were initially told that the full body scanners at airports will be optional but these scanners are now mandatory and before this recent decision by the TSA if someone walks out of a line to a scanner, the TSA flags this as suspicious behavior and you are subjected to further screening. We were told the TSA will only be in airports but the TSA is expanding to bus and train stations, roadblocks, entrance to sporting events, and other places. This same smart gun technology would be useful for a corrupt law enforcement organization to disable any resistance by someone trying to defend themselves against abuses of power. In addition, criminals will figure out how to disable smart guns rendering such guns worthless to people who are trying to protect themselves from criminals. A smart gun is a worthless gun and this should only be an OPTIONAL safety feature and not mandated by the government. What is stopping the government from putting surprises in the transmitter like what they have done for smart phones, computers, smart TV's, etc to allow them to further spy on citizens? Do you trust that the government won't abuse such technology? Do you trust that criminals will not be able to figure out how render such guns worthless so that they don't have to worry about someone resisting they attempt to attack someone?

  123. KISS by StewBaby2005 · · Score: 1

    Smart Tech may be sexy, but why not have a simple physical safety to defeat e.g. children, like the child lock medicine caps? Push and twist would be a lot cheaper to implement. Doesn't solve the problem of an adult grabbing your gun and shooting you with it, but not having a gun in the first place solves that issue.