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"If the European Union were a state in the USA it would belong to the poorest group of states. France, Italy, Great Britain and Germany have lower GDP per capita than all but four of the states in the United States. In fact, GDP per capita is lower in the vast majority of the EU-countries (EU 15) than in most of the individual American states. This puts Europeans at a level of prosperity on par with states such as Arkansas, Mississippi and West Virginia. Only the miniscule country of Luxembourg has higher per capita GDP than the average state in the USA. The results of the new study represent a grave critique of European economic policy."

http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/

The other factor you're not addressing, is the simple correlation between progressive taxes on the high end and quality of living, especially violent crime. You seem fond of bringing up small, anecdotal cases. Do explain to me Sweden, with high gun ownership rates and low wealth disparity managed not by an estate tax now, but by a direct, flat tax on total wealth every year. Why is it that they have one of the lowest rates of violent crime and one of the best standards of living? Note, their unemployment rate is about the same as the US.

Ahhh, does little baby want to pack up his toys and go home? Regardless of whether or not you'll respond to me (and risk getting destroyed, again), here is some more information for your edification.

Who knows, maybe you'll think twice before blindly spouting off the miracle that is Sweden...

An absolute comparison of income

Sweden's poorest 10% actually does slightly worse than their counterpart in the US in real dollar terms (PPP adjusted) even after taxes and most subsidies are taken into account. What's more, virtually every economic group above it, especially at the median and above, does significantly better.

If you're unconvinced that absolute measures of poverty "matter"..

Read Page 22

See page 17

Evidence of Sweden's declining economic status. The average Swede has lost purchasing power over the past 20 years and this effect is particularly evident when compared against the rest of Europe. They've slipped from #4 to #18 from 1970 to 1998 (an absolute loss of 17 points vs the OED average of 100).

Swedish Egalitarianism between 1903 and 2004


Evidence that Sweden had much less economic disparity before their welfare state was created due to collapse of capital markets (as opposed to the "because" that you want to believe) and that they've, in fact, followed similar economic trends.

Economist overview of Swedish economy and growing discontent amongst Swedes

A balanced article in the Economist about some not so well known facts about the Swedish economy. For instance, although they report 6% unemployment officially, they have a ton of people that actually long-term unemployed and living off the system (e.g., long term sick leave). Reliable estimates put their true unemployment closer to 15-17%. What's more, 30% of the country works for the government.

They also point out that Sweden has created virtually no new net jobs in private industry since 1950.

Only 1 of Sweden's 50 largest companies was founded after 1970. Entrepreneurship (and even self-employment) are much lower in Sweden than most of the US and even Europe.

Sweden's problem with entrepreneurship

An article discussing some of the problems and statisics relating to Swedish entrepreneu

Poverty is a highly relative concept. As we saw in the preceding section, for example, 40 per cent of all Swedish households would rank among low-income households in the USA, and an even greater number in the poorer European countries would be classed as low income earnings by the American definition

A report published by Timbro claims that most U.S. states individually have a higher GDP than most European states.

Somewhere I've seen a report that says the average poor family in the U.S. is better off than the average middle-class family in Sweden, but I can't find that one right now. The Wall St. Journal's Opinion Journal site does refer to this in an article, though: "[T]he percentage of Americans living below the poverty line has dropped to 12% from 22% since 1959. In 1999, 25% of American households were considered 'low income,' meaning they had an annual income of less than $25,000. If Sweden--the very model of a modern welfare state--were judged by the same standard, about 40% of its households would be considered low-income."

98% of Brits will complain about the NHS

There's a glowing recommendation for your own position. The fact that no one wants to change what 98% of them complain about is more an example of British lack of ambition than a supportive argument in favor of Socialism.

That would be socialism. It has delivered the world's best standards of living right across Scandinavia.

Please read this: http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/pdf/EU_vs_USA_Englis h.pdf. Its conclusion is that if the EU were a state within the United States, it would be ranked as the poorest in the nation.

I am surprised you are trying to uphold Scandinavian nations as proof of the viability of socialist regimes over a more economically free society, while ignoring the collapse of eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, the economic wastelands of Cuba, and North Korea, and the despotism of communist China.

Freedom and ownership is what strengthens an economy, not government dictate.

To end off, let's compare some major economies and their level of debt.

UK--40.8%

Germany--65.8%

Italy--105.6%

Japan--164.3%

Russia--28.2%

Spain--53.2%

India--59.7%

Brazil--52%

Canada--68.2%

South Korea--20.5%

France--66.5%

US--64.7%

See the rest here--http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook /fields/2186.html

For some shits and giggles, check out this report comparing the US to the EU.http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/

On one hand the US is ultra-religious.

Wrong.

But on the other hand helping the poor is totaly unamerican

Wrong.

You might want to read this report.

You might also want to reflect that people have the same life expectancy in the United States that they do in Germany. Doesn't really match well with your notion that the downtrodden working class in the United States is starving in the street, does it?

The Europeans have basically "solved" the problem of poverty by making everyone poor.

Hope this helps!

Please re-read my post. I have shown that what is happening today is not indiscriminate. It is a direct outcome of European actions up through the end of WWII. It is hard decisions to pick the lesser of two evils when perhaps you have to pick the greater of two evils today to avoid an even greater evil tomorrow.

History does not turn on a dime and the Europeans were doing EXACTLY what you claim they don't only 60 years ago during WWII and less than 40 years ago in the USSR You do know where the word you used ("gulag") comes from, right? I expect, given just half a chance, it will happen again.

Don't kid yourself and think that what is coming from Bin Laden and his friends is "anti-American" as it is not. It is "anti-Infidel" and Europeans are as guilty as we are of that.

As a penultimate statement, Europeans have honed international political bickering into an artform over the course of centuries while Americans have only been at it for about a single career span. As a result, I am not surprised that sentiment has been steered against us. If the French, Germans, et alia were not badmouthing us as a way of distracting their people from their low GDPs, I would be very surprised.

In closing, I would like to point out the article 18 Ways to Hate Your Neighbour.

There is an interesting study at http://www.timbro.com/euvsusa/

If the European Union were a state in the USA it would belong to the poorest group of states. France, Italy, Great Britain and Germany have lower GDP per capita than all but four of the states in the United States. In fact, GDP per capita is lower in the vast majority of the EU-countries (EU 15) than in most of the individual American states. This puts Europeans at a level of prosperity on par with states such as Arkansas, Mississippi and West Virginia. Only the miniscule country of Luxembourg has higher per capita GDP than the average state in the USA. The results of the new study represent a grave critique of European economic policy.

Stark differences become apparent when comparing official economic statistics. Europe lags behind the USA when comparing GDP per capita and GDP growth rates. The current economic debate among EU leaders lacks an understanding of the gravity of the situation in many European countries. Structural reforms of the European economy as well as far reaching welfare reforms are well overdue. The Lisbon process lacks true impetus, nor is it sufficient to improve the economic prospects of the EU.

EU versus USA is written by Dr Fredrik Bergström, President of the Swedish Research Institute of Trade, and Mr Robert Gidehag, until recently Chief Economist of the same institute and now President of the Swedish Taxpayer's Association.

No doubt many will disagree with the study (such is the nature of economics) but it is still an interesting read.

The economy of the EU as a whole has been lagging behind the US for a long time. Since 1990 the EU has undergone huge growth in terms of territory and population as new countries have joined, but the comparative shares of the world economy for the EU and the US have barely moved. Stil some parts of the EU, like the UK for example, have been doing about as well as the US. (See here for details.)

I doubt if software patents have much, if anything, to do with it though. Aging populations, labour market inflexibility, and high tax rates, are more likely causes.

Uneven wealth distribution is a political problem, not an economic one. The study I linked above shows some pretty eye-popping statistics about the wealth of poor people in the US. Their material standard of living exceeds the average of wealthy (Western European) countries, let alone all countries.

Now, you could make the argument that material wealth isn't the complete measure of standard of living. I agree with you there (those long vacations would be nice, although I don't think the European model is sustainable). But my point was the wiki article was self-debunking, as its arguments either refute or don't support the point.

Two Swedish economists recently published a study that asks how European countries would fare if suddenly admitted into the American union. The results? If the UK, France, or Italy became U.S. states, they would rank as the fifth poorest of the fifty, ahead only of Arkansas, Montana, West Virginia, and Mississippi. The richest EU country--Ireland--would be the 13th poorest. Sweden would be the 6th poorest. In fact, the study found that 40% of all Swedish households would classify as low-income in the U.S.

This means that poorer U.S. states enjoy affluence comparable to that of richer European states--Denmark is equivalent to Kentucky--whether measured in terms of home ownership, or number of microwaves and cars possessed. "Material prosperity," the authors write of the U.S., "is high and not associated with the material standard of living which many people in Europe probably associate with poverty. Good economic development, in other words, results in even poor people being relatively well off."

By the 1880s, the U.S. had become the world's richest nation (measured in per capita GDP). In the 1990s, U.S. growth was twice that of Europe's, and three times that of Japan's. The U.S. per capita income is now 55% higher than the EU-15 average, and 50% higher than Japan's.

This is one of the many things which explains why if France were a state in the union, it would have the same general prosperity as Arkansas. The same goes for other European nations. And the more recent your timeline for comparing Europe to the U.S., the worse Europe appears in comparison.

- Crow T. Trollbot

No fundamental difference between the US and Europe? Are you for real? I can't read the economist article as it isn't free, but I suggest you have a look at EU versus USA, a study written by Dr Fredrik Bergström and Mr Robert Gidehag:

If the European Union were a state in the USA it would belong to the poorest group of states. France, Italy, Great Britain and Germany have lower GDP per capita than all but four of the states in the United States. In fact, GDP per capita is lower in the vast majority of the EU-countries (EU 15) than in most of the individual American states. This puts Europeans at a level of prosperity on par with states such as Arkansas, Mississippi and West Virginia. Only the miniscule country of Luxembourg has higher per capita GDP than the average state in the USA. The results of the new study represent a grave critique of European economic policy.

Stark differences become apparent when comparing official economic statistics. Europe lags behind the USA when comparing GDP per capita and GDP growth rates. The current economic debate among EU leaders lacks an understanding of the gravity of the situation in many European countries. Structural reforms of the European economy as well as far reaching welfare reforms are well overdue. The Lisbon process lacks true impetus, nor is it sufficient to improve the economic prospects of the EU.

How many new companies have entered the EU's top fifty the last 30 years for example? In America it's perhaps 50% or more. In Europe it might be one perhaps. For a country as Sweden it's zero for example: the last thirty years there have been no new successful companies. That could not happen in America.

That link may not be very trustworthy.
Timbro (the think-tank you linked to) is a strongly ideological organization.

It's mission is basically to turn Sweden into a smaller copy of their utopia, the USA.
Therefore they have a vested interest in making the USA look good, and the EU look bad in any comparison.
You may still be right, but if I were you I would find statistics from a less politically motivated and more respected source.
As things are now, you linked to something akin to soviet-era Pravda...

here