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http://www.warofthering.net/

"You know, you have a turn of phrase every so often that I know you know is intentional... I know that you know exactly what I mean... By your definition any music that doesn't use a classical symphony orchestra is indistinguishable one from the other... All music using drums and base IS THE SAME -- (no matter how wildly different it really is, but hey, it's your view of things) and "at the end of the day" since it's "all the same" it can't be good. Your girlfriend was "enthralled" by something you viewed from a distance with distaste"

It's unfortunate that you choose to make a discussion an attack on a person, especially when you have no idea who that person is or the contents of their music collection and bookshelf. I supposed I have been drawn in by a "flame". (and I don't mean a beau or heart-throb)

"to condemn entire genres, indeed, entire art forms"

I condemned the genre's name, a word which means "The creative imagination; unrestrained fancy", when that genre has become uncreative and choked with preconceived characters and scenarios. I suggested they start using a different word or phrase for this genre. The genre is not without merits, but it is not creative. Lots of staid, predictable things in life retain some merit.

You seem prone to making broad assumptions based on things which aren't said. What if you read my post this way: I said I played Diablo, Dungeon Seige, even DnD... if I hated the genre so much, why would I waste my money on the software/books, and why would I waste my leisure time on them? If you took the time to look at things from a different point of view, perhaps there were different assumptions you could have drawn from my words.

Speaking of the meaning of words, since when is "enthralled" a negative, contemptuous word?

"All music using drums and base IS THE SAME -- (no matter how wildly different it really is, but hey, it's your view of things)"

My view of things is that someone who is deeply immersed in something (such as a genre) can become so focused that they see broad differentiation where the average or casual observer sees only relatively minor variations. Sometimes people focused like that are unable to pull back to see the forest because they are paying such close attention to the differences in conifers. Producing minor variations is not being creative. Being aware of the big picture (and any flaws it exposes) does not mean being unable to appreciate the minor variations and sub-species, er, sub-genres. Yes, Black Sabbath and Nirvana produce very different songs, but in the big picture, they are the same: guitar, bass, drums, distortion pedal, and undeniably mediocre vocal performances. (btw, Geezer Butler certainly smacks his bass, and if you have ever seen Bill Ward or Dave Grohl drum, it is obvious they are bashers - jeez, Grohl beat the living daylights out of my friend's drum kit and completely wrecked a new set of skins in less than an hour, back around 1989-90).

"Your method of plucking out a bit of similarity here and there... I'm not familiar with the "Warhammer" .jpg you linked"

The jpg came from the article, for pete's sake. If you look at the photos I think it is indisputable that the similarities are remarkable. The WoW link was only two clicks deep. I mentioned before I didn't have to make any effort to find these similarities. This stuff is upfront, common genre content. I'm not plucking anything - a point I was trying to make was that the dwarf thing is just one example of the broad similarities within the genre; there are countless others, indeed including plots. Yes, minute similarities can be found between two of any piece of fiction, but that is not my point.

"Diablo isn't WoW isn't FFXI and so forth -- they aren't at all similar; your comment that fantasy constitutes nothing more than "Olde Tyme Wizard's Worlde" is incorrect at best, slightly flamish at worst.

In what way do you find the aforementioned dissimiliar games "terribly predictable"? These games are very different one from the other, and hardly fit the "Ye Olde Wizarde" paradigm."

I have played Diablo, never Wow or FFXI. I have played Dungeon Seige. Admittedly, I got bored with both Diablo and Dungeon Seige and never completed them. I played DnD as a child and I'm familiar with Tolkien. A girlfriend years ago was enthralled by fantasy fiction and I read a bit of her collection. I'm sure I've been exposed to Fantasy work on other occasions.

To someone who is a fan with broad exposure, there is surely a huge difference between the different games, books, movies, etc. To someone who is a passive fan or less, the differences are not so apparent. The same goes for anything; hockey teams, NASCAR drivers, speaker cable, techno music: some kid's mom might not be able to tell the difference between Black Sabbath and Nirvana, while maybe the kid thinks they are polar opposites of each other - Kurt Cobain and Tony Iommi the same? That's crazy-talk mom! At the end of the day, both bands bash drums, smack a bass, turn up the fuzzy guitar and moan about their problems.

Yes, the Fantasy Worlde contains a lot of product I have never experienced, but the samples I have indulged in or just glanced at have been very similar. If my memory serves me well, Diablo has some sort of walking skeleton/zombie hordes. Guess what: so does Dungeon Seige. If I dug out my olde DnD book I suspect there might be something similar in there. Dragons, taverns with ale in steins, pointy armoured hats with horns, thatched roofed houses... yes there are dissimilar elements in every product, but there are broad similarities for the casual fan or casual observer.

Take the pointy hat guy for example. I would say that guy and Gimli from LoTR are the same and predictable. Gee, look: WoW has similar stuff. Maybe others would call me crazy and point out the scores of differences - ooo, one uses a hammer and the other uses an axe... but come on; they're all short, stocky, there's lots of facial hair with braids even... predictable. I'm not even trying: this stuff is falling in my lap.

"If you feel that you have an idea for a great scifi game that will *also* be attractive to tens of millions - or even several million - people, you'll get an eager reception by a gaming company; that is, if you can create the game and make it both workable and appealing."

This is the fallacy which those refuting criticism of something they favour sometimes fall back on, the "if you don't like it, then why don't you do better?" thing. I'm not a game designer. It's not my job to design games. I can't cook, but that doesn't mean I can't say a restaurant serves crappy food. I can't kick a ball, but I have opinions about how England played in the World Cup. Where is the sense in expecting me to start working out with the squad just so I can earn the right to say they stank? That's ludicrous.

It's no different when I say Fantasy genre product is uncreative and hardly based in fantasy at all.

"For the large corporations creating the games, it comes down to market research and dollars. Don't think for a minute that they would hesitate to spend millions upon millions to craft new ideas if their research indicated that those ideas would be viable and make them money."

First of all, are you agreeing with me or disagre

In case the pictures are slashdotted, here is one:

Giant Squid Thing!

It's the same in New Zealand.
Only our chicks are much hotter.

What, you mean like Rosie?

When I first read "Spiegel", I thought it meant Gollum.

Well, even though the game sounds blah, there does seem to be some very nice art work associated with it - Check it out at http://www.warofthering.net/gallery/; not to mention the nice screenshots of the game available at http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/products/scre enindex/0,11104,563555,00.html

Suhit

Bilbo lives!

Oh, and don't forget: The lord of the rhymes which samples it.

It's called "Requiem of the Rings," and it's a mixture of Clint Mansell's Requiem for a Dream and some LOTR sounds. The maker is Ajax Projection and they used to have it up for download. It then moved to War of the Ring but now it's gone from there too. But I'm sure you know where else to look.