LOTR: War of the Ring Real-Time Strategy Game

DiZASTiX writes "Just saw this on Gamespot about LOTR: War of the Ring a Warcraft III like LOTR game: "The Lord of the Rings: War of the Ring has only been in development for around seven or eight months, but at a press event in Berlin this week we were lucky enough to catch a glimpse of the game in its current state. The map itself was relatively featureless at this stage of development but boasted some great grass textures and trees, which were occasionally shadowed by the suggestion of clouds passing overhead. More impressive still were the character models on display, which, although unfinished, bore more than a passing resemblance to the colorful, stylized units of Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos.""

Comments

another copy

[Anonymous Coward]

C&C will always be the best RTS.

Re:another copy

[BarrettAnderson]

no, it won't. StarCraft is and always will be. back to the topic: i was just thinking how great it would be for there to be a LOTR RTS game (other than WC3 custom made maps for b-net)... and 2 days later, i see this... I really hope they do a good job and allow the same map making abilities as blizzard games. (btw, too lazy to read the entire article, but who's developing this?)

Woo!

[Black Parrot]

> The map itself was relatively featureless at this stage of development but boasted some great grass textures and trees, which were occasionally shadowed by the suggestion of clouds passing overhead.

Sounds like a great game - can't wait!

Re:Woo!

[dr_dank]

If you think thats great, you'll freak when you see my backyard.

Re:Woo!

[Anonymous Coward]

Things promise to get much more exciting with the "The Drying of the Paint" mod.

Re:Woo!

[JohnFluxx]

Bah - nothing compared to my game.

Re:Woo!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup...we have gotten to the point where people will spend months on expensive 3D simulations of watching grass grow.

I feel certain this wasn't what was envisioned when the term "realtime" was coined.

(though actually a Taoist might approve...)

Warcraft and LoTR?

[That_Dan_Guy]

What resources am I supposed to mine? Tolkien was about how awful industrialization and cutting down trees and mining stuff was. And here's a game that may end up glorifying it?

Re:Warcraft and LoTR?

[Skyshadow]

Playing the bad guys, I assume that's exactly what you'll be doing -- ripping everything to shit. I would expect the environment around the bases of Sauron's forces to blacked and die, like with the creep in Starcraft.

For the good guys.. er, maybe you'll go around begging large amounts of food and supplies of Tom Bombadil, elves and other forces that meander along seemingly at random throughout the game. That would seem to fit the paradigm of the books pretty well...

Re:Warcraft and LoTR?

[levik]

If you bothered to read the article, you would know that the game is divvied up into two campaigns:

The "Good" campaign is about making do mostly with "hero" units, while the "evil" campaign is about massive buildups of force (possibly resulting from resource mining).

So no inconsistencies here.

Re:Warcraft and LoTR?

[nomadic]

You could grow pipeweed to power your troops.

Sounds unlikely? Look at what they did with Galactic Battelgrounds, where you can have your R2 units gather berries and fish.

Re:Warcraft and LoTR?

[skinnydskitzo]

" What resources am I supposed to mine? Tolkien was about how awful industrialization and cutting down trees and mining stuff was. And here's a game that may end up glorifying it?" Tolkien wasn't really about anything. He tried to make his story's as socially irrelavant as possible. You could say his story was about the the threat of nazism, communism, nuclear bombs, industrialization, mining, cartoons, the slashdot effect, or whatever else. Who knows if he was for or against these things. His stories definitely weren't about any of them though.

Re:Warcraft and LoTR?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's really not true. The industrialisation of jolly old semi-rural England was a big deal for him, and he wrote about it at length, even going on record as to the relation to the Shire. In fact LOTR is notable for the number of specific goals the author wanted to pursue with it, after it got out of the dictionary compilation stage.

There are some decent discussions of all this on the Tolkein fanboy sites.

Re:Warcraft and LoTR?

[Glock27]

Tolkien was about how awful industrialization and cutting down trees and mining stuff was.

Not entirely, Orthanc, Minas Tirith and the various Dwarven works show that the "good guys" could do large scale engineering as well.

Of course, in Middle Earth they have flamin' magic to get things done...no such panacea here. ;-)

Re:Warcraft and LoTR?

[That_Dan_Guy]

Actually I did read the article. And I'd say it was ambigious as to that point, thus my use of the word "MAY" in the original post.

The fact is, having played the old warcraft games' missions where you only get a small group of heroes was a whole lot les fun than getting to build armies. Thus it MAY turn out to be more fun to play as "EVIL" and build up the massive armies, thus glorifying the very ideas Tolkien railed against.

In my opinion it would have been much better to make the game more like MYTH than Warcraft.

Therefore I stand by my original post.

RTS Games

[unterderbrucke]

I'm a small-time programmer at a rather large gaming company (can't say who, obviously, but no MS), and recently the demand for RTS programmers has gone up tremendously. This is mostly due to the success of Age of Empires.

Just goes to show how much MS is the proverbial "golden goose", turning everything it touches into gold...

Re:RTS Games

[UberLord]

Just goes to show how much MS is the proverbial "golden goose", turning everything it touches into gold...

And there was me thinking Microsoft had Peons to mine the gold for them! :p

Re:RTS Games

[Jugalator]

Age of Empires? Yes, it's nice and now several years old, not even close to what hit Starcraft or its expansion was for example. Warcraft III would sound more logical to me since it's more recent, but what do I know. :-) It just seemed strange to me that a single game, and that exact game, would increase the desire to make RTS games.

Re:RTS Games

[Anonymous Coward]

s/midas/golden goose....?

Re:RTS Games

[Anonymous Coward]

Age of Empires? Yes, it's nice and now several years old, not even close to what hit Starcraft or its expansion was for example.

Yes, but AoE got its company bought by Microsoft, which may be an easier goal than actually writing a hit game...

Re:RTS Games

[voodoo1man]

Actually, if you go back to the good old days of 1998, you'll realize that the RTS bandwagon effect was at it's first peak right about then, and that this is only the second coming. Microsoft's AOE rode in pretty much on the tail end of the peak.

Now you may ask yourself, why did the trend suddenly decline for a few years? Remember such classic titles as Earth 2027, KKND, KKND expansions pack, Earth 2227 (or whatever), KKND 2, KKND 2 expansion pack, and of course C&C Red Alert: expansion packs 1, 2 and 3 (is there a fourth one I'm missing?)? I believe the phrase "C&C clone" first became popular during this time, and for good reason. Most of these games sucked and sold poorly.

Now the great cycle of life continues: the investors who got burned on the first crop have largely gone some other way, and Warcraft III (what the hell does AOE have to do with 'recently'?) is one of the top-selling games in recent memory, proving once again that if you're Blizzard, you can get away with making incremental changes to your games, slapping on a roman numeral on the box, and still make millions. Of course, to game publishers this means leeching season (never mind that most of the clone titles are guaranteed to flop miserably - they're investors! they take risks without thinking!).

Also, why exactly can't you reveal who your employer is? Do they chain you to the radiator and beat you for talking to strangers? Or do you use your exotic on-line identity to post internal memos on Fatbabies? In any which case, you could have at least posted anonymously.

Re:RTS Games

[Anonymous Coward]

The best thing about correction postings is when people get them wrong in a whole new way. ;)

(s/find/replace/)

Re:RTS Games

[mad.frog]

Also, why exactly can't you reveal who your employer is? Do they chain you to the radiator and beat you for talking to strangers?

Probably not literally, but at at least one "rather large game company" that I know of (hint: first letter "E", second letter "A"), it would definitely be bad for your career to make public comments that might displease an exec or producer somewhere. (And what might displease them? Ah, there's the rub! No one can know in advance.)

Re:RTS Games

[Anonymous Coward]

Great way to lead a career, isn't it? Crawling around the office on your knees, quietly trying to decide if what you want to say might "upset" some wire-rimmed-glasses-wearing, icon-clicking, so-much-cooler-than-you game company "executive" who might arbitrarily decide they don't "like" you today and then proceed to remorselessly fuck over your career, family, marriage, retirement, etc., right after you make your first house payment.

Isn't it amazing how the work of an entire career: the degrees, years of experience, years of work, and page after page of successful resumes can be flushed into the shitpipe at a whim?

While it takes the workplace equivalent of an Act of Congress to get hired?

It is truly no wonder the game industry (like the rest of the economy) is so fucked.

Re:RTS Games

[nycbrujah]

When I post, I don't state what company I work for. It doesn't bare any relevance to the post. Besides my views will not always correspond with my companies views. To avoid possible censure and fun stuff like corrective action, it's best to not associate yourself with any company. I believe it's perfectly acceptable to not state who you work for in this case.

As far as RTS goes, It's not my thing, and I tend to avoid them, yet everybody else I know seems utterly jazzed about things like this, especially as the letters LOTR are attached to it. I'm sure people will buy it just because the letters LOTR are attached to it.

Re:RTS Games

[Anonymous Coward]

For a game programmer, you don't really know your games.

Re:RTS Games

[mad.frog]

And no wonder I got the hell out of there...

Re:RTS Games

[Jugalator]

Hehe, point taken. :-)

Isn't there already an LoTR RTS game?

[$$$$$$$$$$$exy Goats]

I could be wrong, but didn't Microsoft release one a few months ago to coincide with the release of the Two Towers?

Re:Isn't there already an LoTR RTS game?

[AlternateSyndicate]

Considering that approximately 500 LoTR-themed games have been made in the past 20 years, it's safe to assume that one is an RTS I'm sure.

Re:Isn't there already an LoTR RTS game?

[t0ny]

the funny cause of the 500 LOTR games out now is the game rights for the book and movie are separate. Really makes no sense when the movie is based on the book, but its the law- it doesnt have to make sense.

Anyway, I will probably end up getting this just because its LOTR. WC3 is great, but I still hope its not TOO derivative.

Re:Isn't there already an LoTR RTS game?

[MMaestro]

No, that was an action game for the PS2.

Yep...

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is why the demand for "operating system programmers" is at an all time high across the industry.

Re:Yep...

[Anonymous Coward]

gg white space.

Impressive?

[Skyshadow]

How much can you really tell from a pre-pre-beta version of the game? At this point, there's still a 50-50 chance we'll never even see this one in production.

Good to know it's (maybe) coming, though. I wonder how well LoTR will translate to this format -- it is an extremely hero-driven mythos (even beyond the quest of the Ring Bearer), and the avatar/hero units in RTS games I've played previously were rather disappointing when compared with Gandalf or Aragorn.

If Aragorn can't lead an army of the dead, I'll be very disappointed. If they turn Galdalf from subtle mage into just another flashy area-damage unit, I'm tossing the whole affair out the window. That is, of course, assuming it runs well under WineX in the first place...

Re:Impressive?

[deadsaijinx*]

you mean alpha, or even one more pre before...

Re:Impressive?

[Anonymous Coward]

>>> If they turn Galdalf from subtle mage into just another flashy area-damage unit, I'm tossing the whole affair out the window. That is, of course, assuming it runs well under WineX in the first place...

Thanks, always nice to get preliminary feedback from our target market.

Sincerely,
Black Label Games

erm

[odyrithm]

shadowed by the suggestion of clouds passing overhead

Hope the weather dont get to bad, else wont be able to see bollocks.. bet they copy the UK weather patterns.. always over cast here ;)

Re:erm

[Anonymous Coward]

Well they could copy the New Zealand weather patterns, which would mean Aotearoa ("Land of the Long White Cloud")...

Bah instead of making a regular RTS it should be..

[MrDolby]

Instead of them making a LOTR rts which will probably be just like every other RTS. They should make a LOTR strategy game like the Total War series. You know Shogun/Mediaval war. Turn based Strategy with real time battles with thousands of units.

Re:appropriate?

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop trolling.

Hobbitses can't attack hobbitses.

[$$$$$exyGal]

... it will be possible to pit the forces of good and evil against their own kind, but in order to stay true to the books there are apparently a number of events that will never be allowed to transpire--hobbits attacking other hobbits being one of the examples mentioned.

With that in mind, I know there will be a lot of players who will never be hobbits(es). Some players just join these games to run amuck and kill everything in sight, so they won't be able to stand being a hobbit.

Re:Hobbitses can't attack hobbitses.

[Anonymous Coward]

"hobbits attacking other hobbits being one of the examples mentioned."

Scouring of the Shire. There were hobbits in league with Saruman.

Apparently, these guys must've read the same books as Jackson did. They might be staying true to these books, but they won't be staying true to Tolkien's books. :p

Now, of course, I'm sure they're going after the general idea that there were never two armies of hobbits that engaged in a bloody clash in the Southfarthing or anything.. But frankly, it's a game. It's going to be a Real Time Lack of Strategy Game. It's not going to 'stay true to the books' no matter what - what happens when Aragorn gets picked off by an orc?

The 'mission' fails and you have to restart?

Now *that* isn't 'true to the books'.

Enough with that darn ring already!

[burrfux]

I am getting really tired with all the lotr movies, books published in 100 different ways, action figures, playing cards and everything. I loved the books, the movies were okay-ish but IMHO there were no need for them either. Why could they not just let the books rest as the king of fantasy litterature ?

Re:Enough with that darn ring already!

[Anonymous Coward]

but you felt the need to post on a lotr thread

really

next time just skip to next post

Re:Enough with that darn ring already!

[secolactico]

Why could they not just let the books rest as the king of fantasy litterature ?

Do you really need an answer to that? You gotta milk the franchise for all its worth while the fans are buying. Just take a look at the sudden surge of superheroes movies.

Re:Enough with that darn ring already!

[RazzleDazzle]

You have your own opinions about the books, movies, etc and I have my own.

To answer your question:
Apparently you will never be an entrepeneur or business exec in modern america because you don't have that incredibly strong desire to harvest as much money from as many people as you possibly can no matter the cost (unless it gets to blatantly illegal, maybe not even then though) for as long as possible. If you had the ganas, it not be hard to understand why things are the way they are here in This Modern World

Developer's Track Record

[SubliminalLove]

Black Label Games, it seems, is a subsidiary of Vivendi Universal Games, the makers of such great games as Homeworlds, Baldur's Gate, etc...

I'm not really sold on them, though, for this kind of production. Homeworlds, while it was a pretty game, was absolute crap in terms of strategy, and the next closest thing to a RTS they've made was the Caesar series, which is a lot like Sim City for crack-babies (don't get me wrong; I liked it, but it's weird).

I'm sick of this dichotomy in the gaming industry. Any game based on a universe the gaming community knows and loves will suck, because the company in charge knows it will sell like crazy based solely on the license appeal. I wish just once the big men on top would be sack-heavy enough to take a solid license and then give the game the time it takes to really make it rock.

There is hope for us. Matrix: Reloaded looks like it may very well not suck. But when a company gets the license to LOTR and then just starts pumping the games out like this (evidently Vivendi's Black Label has sole license to the video games for the LOTR universe), they're all going to be crappy and/or simplistic.

Game companies: We gamers are patient. We'll wait the two or three years it takes to bring together a good title! Making a good RTS doesn't happen in eight months!

~SL

Re:Developer's Track Record

[qbwiz]

Homeworld was made by Relic. Baldur's Gate was made by BioWare. The Caesar series seems to be made by Impressions Software.

Re:Developer's Track Record

[Animixer]

>the next closest thing to a RTS they've made was the Caesar series, which is a lot like Sim City for crack-babies (don't get me wrong; I liked it, but it's weird).

What, you don't like hearing "More Plebs are Needed!" every 5 seconds? :)

Re:Developer's Track Record

[entrippy]

Er, Homeworld was developed by Relic Entertainment and *published* by Sierra - who are a Vivendi subsidiary. In general terms, this means that Homeworld (not Homeworlds) is pretty irrelevant to the development going on at Black Label Games.

Which isn't to say it's a good or bad thing, just to say it's not as if it's the same development team.

Re:Developer's Track Record

[rpillala]

Vivendi didn't make any of those games, they published them. You argument would still work except that in my experience, the publisher can't be used as an indicator of quality. Relic made Homeworld, Bioware made Baldur's Gate, and as far as I know, a group at Sierra made the Caesar and Cleopatra games.

It's more appropriate to refer to Liquid Entertainment's past work, which is Battle Realms and the Battle Realms addon. BR was good, certainly giving me a good feeling about Liquid developing this LOTR game. In fact, when I found out it was them, I was very very relieved.

You may still be right, and it may be rushed out the door too fast. I don't think Vivendi does that too much.

Still, I'd take a rushed game from Liquid over a non-rushed game from, say Phantagram (makers of the horrific Kingdom Under Fire.) Liquid itself doesn't have the longest track record, but the two founders both worked at Westwood and Ed Del Castillo (one of them) was "the sole Producer in charge of the entire Command and Conquer series, including Red Alert and its expansions..." This info is available at Liquid's annoying Flash site.

Ravi

Re:Developer's Track Record

[Anonymous Coward]

vivendi isn't a dev company they are a conglomate publishing company.

big diff moron.

Re:Developer's Track Record

[11223]

I still get ocassional strange looks for saying "Need More Plebs".

Oh well.

Re:Developer's Track Record

[mad.frog]

Game companies: We gamers are patient. We'll wait the two or three years it takes to bring together a good title! Making a good RTS doesn't happen in eight months!

Yes, you'd think so... but I did a brief stint working on an RTS title at a Very Large Game Company, and lemme tell ya, that just ain't the way the industry works, at least as far as I can tell.

Once the powers-that-be decide on a shipping date for a game, and start advance promotion, and make commitments to major retailers that it'll be on their shelves on a given date.... it's pretty much gonna ship in that timeframe, or heads roll.

It's really a shame, because, inevitably, quality suffers (though apparently the market doesn't really care, as long as the game has really cool explosions). Think about it, how many PC games have you bought lately that had a half-dozen patches in the first month or two, and *still* felt like they were rushed to market way too early?

Perhaps if the industry would stop its habit of hyping a game 8-12 months in advance of its anticipated ship date (which are generally pure fantasy in the first place, from my experience), they wouldn't end up in this sort of situation... but somehow that seems unlikely. Alas.

Re:Developer's Track Record

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried to read your seemingly informative post, but got bored. Next time, could you include some ASCII explosions?

Also, before you post, make a few teasing posts in other stories starting a few days ahead - "+5 Informative post on the way!", stuff like that. Otherwise I don't know which posts (and posters!) to pay attention to.

Thanx.

btw what do all these buttons do? What's "anonymously?" You could really improve the response to your posts if you gave them a better user interface.

Re:Developer's Track Record

[DA_MAN_DA_MYTH]

It looks like this is also being developed by Liquid entertainment who did work for Battle Realms. They are good group of guys that came up with a good concept for a game, that was overshadowed by WCIII because of many delays in their launch date. Hopefully this title will be a lot more successful.

Thousdands of elements

[autopr0n]

I always got annoyed with starcraft, being only able to control about 100 elements at a time, max. Most of the time you were limited to even less.

I'd like to see an RTS that let you control thousands of elements at a time. Maybe they could save CPU time by mirroring some guys, or something.

How lame would it be to have the final battle of the ring with just 100 guys total :P

Re:Thousdands of elements

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have a Playstation 2, rent or buy a copy of Kessen.

If you don't, there's plenty of computer games out there - look for strategy games, but stay the hell away from anything that says 'real time' on it.

There's games out there that are a mix of turn based moves with real time combat out there, as well.

There's a catch, however - most games in this genre don't let you be 'god' as 'RTS' games do. You don't control individual soldiers. You're giving orders to officers.

Re:Thousdands of elements

[Mark (ph'x)]

Dont just stand there then! Run out and grab a copy of "Cossacks"... the new version based on american history has a unit cap of around 10k or so... battles look rather cool :)

Re:Thousdands of elements

[Anonymous Coward]

I kind of like the way Dynasty Warriors handles that. You don't control anyone else directly, but you set the tone (via morale) and the troops follow your leads. Instead of trying to directly control more soldiers than any general ever could, you exert an influence. Try it sometime (DW3).

Feh.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Warcraft III like LOTR game"

That prevents the game from being real time strategy.

Frankly, if you want to see actual real time strategy, buy a Playstation 2 and pick up a copy of Kessen.

After how many years, it's about time someone realized the stupidity of 'collect the resources, build twenty barracks, and zerg rush! lol! kekekekekeke ^_____________________________^!!!"

nice screenshots

[suhit]

Well, even though the game sounds blah, there does seem to be some very nice art work associated with it - Check it out at http://www.warofthering.net/gallery/; not to mention the nice screenshots of the game available at http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/products/scre enindex/0,11104,563555,00.html

Suhit

*grins*

[Cyno01]

Lets all pray they use MASSIVE in the game somehow. *drools at the though*

Re:*grins*

[MrDolby]

No need to just check out Rome Total War. That trailer is of actual game graphics.

http://www.3dgamers.com/dl/games/rome/rometotalw ar .zip.html

Interesting...

[Skyshadow]

I've got to admit that your post read like flamebait at first, but...

The way the Iraqi situation (and, in some ways, the larger west vs. Islam conflict) is being framed in simplistic good vs. evil terms by our leaders is disturbing because it takes complicated issues and reduces them to trite overgeneralizations. LoTR's overall commercial success can be viewed as an example of this.

There's no doubt that war fantasy takes some account for this; forget Tolken for the moment and consider Tom Clancy -- noble, professional US soldiers go out and conquer this evil or that and are back in time for dinner. It, along with fast-and-easy wars like Gulf War I, create this fantasy that the US is completely unbeatible in all environments and an eagerness to go fight rather than exploring other options.

Back to the point though, LoTR demonstrates the basis of this problem: people would rather view their complex world in terms of a neat, all-ends tied up, good vs. evil novel like LoTR. The characters are all very straightforward, and you never have to wonder if Gandalf has ulterier motives. It's a good story, but a dangerous way to view the world for those not sophisticated enough to look past it (not to be pessemistic, but let's face it, Survivor is in it's zillionth rendition).

Anyhow, this is why it's important to push people through to more complex literative and stories where people aren't good or evil, but who work towards their own logical (or not) ends. Maybe this would help increase the sophistication of the general populace and generate an electorate which si less easily lied to, helping to preserve democracy against those who would coopt it.

Or maybe I'm just off on a rant.

Re:Interesting...

[osgeek]

is being framed in simplistic good vs. evil terms by our leaders is disturbing because it takes complicated issues and reduces them to trite overgeneralizations

The irony there is that if the general populace were smart enough and/or cared enough, they would see right through those trite overgeneralizations for themselves. Unfortunately, they're dumb sheep who need things simplified before they know how to think. Sucks, but that's the way it is.

Re:The curse of 'Tolkienism'

[SubliminalLove]

Dude. Racism? The man in charge of the armies of evil was Sauramon the white!

~SL

Teeter on the brink of war?

[TopShelf]

Hello, the terrorists declared war on the U.S. a long time ago. There has never been a better time for LotR to rise into popular culture - it reminds us that there are indeed things worth fighting for.

Re:Teeter on the brink of war?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello, the terrorists declared war on the U.S. a long time ago. There has never been a better time for LotR to rise into popular culture - it reminds us that there are indeed things worth fighting for.

Yeah! We'll teach those damned Iraqis to hijack *our* planes and fly them into buildings!

Now, excuse me, I've got to go fill up my SUV.

Re:Teeter on the brink of war?

[Ignominious Poltroon]

> Hello, the terrorists declared war on the U.S. a long time ago.
> There has never been a better time for LotR to rise into popular
> culture - it reminds us that there are indeed things worth
> fighting for.

Like in the case of Iraq, oil!

Or did you mean "our way of life"? Yes, by annihilating Iraq, we will be truly fighting for our way of life. Those Iraqis sure resemble, at least in skin tone but probably in mindset, the Saudi terrorists who attacked us.

Re:Teeter on the brink of war?

[Anonymous Coward]

We'll teach those damned Iraqis to hijack *our* planes and fly them into buildings!

No, it was actually the *other* big oil-producing nation's citizens that did that. Bush's sabre-rattling in the region is only helping the fundamentalist Saudis who OBL has aligned himself with...

Patience? I dunno...

[TopShelf]

I, for one, cannot wait - I haven't bought a PC game in a few years, but this is a guaranteed first-day purchase in my book. My brothers and I used to play a great War of the Ring boardgame long ago (mid-80s, can't remember the name). I always enjoyed running Saruman's forces out of Orthanc, who for my money is the real wildcard in the war.

Tolkien Fanatics aside..

[Anonymous Coward]

..he's right.

We can wait. As long as you don't insist it's 'coming real soon now!' ala the Linux port of NWN, or 'LOOK! Isn't it great?!' ala Daikatana/DNF.

Keep silent. Say nothing. Then, when the bulk of the work is done, that is the time to say, "Gee, look at this guys. I bet you're wondering when you can pick up a copy. Try any game store, in a month."

AOE was shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd credit the Command & Conquer (original & Red Alert 1/2), Warcraft (2 & 3), Starcraft's insane sales figures (complete with televised championships in Korea), Total Annihilation and the Myth series (the first to 3D) with popularising the RTS scene.

Age Of Empires (and it's sequels) came along and took advantage of the market situation. It's been an enormous cash cow for Microsoft - but nothing more. AOE 1 & 2 didn't significantly contribute to the genre and I certainly didn't find either as enjoyable as any of the above mentioned games (AOE was, quite frankly, boring and uninventive). Gold for MS, but merely a "good enough" product as far as most gamers I know were concerned.

This is, I think, a good example of marketing-driven sucess. AOE wasn't even developed internally (that was Ensemble studios). It just happened to have "Microsoft" stamped on the box so non-gamers had instant brand recognition - and had they had the money to get the product into places like WalMart (suprise - yes, you often have to pay retailers for shelf space). They muscled into the market in the same way that they keep doing with Flight Simulator - the product isn't that good (compared to X-Plane, Fly!, etc) - but everybody knows what it is.

I've heard good word of mouth about Age Of Mythology, I may try it out if they have a demo. But for now, I'm playing C&C Generals - and loving every minute of it.

Re:AOE was shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

99% of MS' games are just published by them, IIRC the only game they also develop is the flight simulator line.

Anyway, you're proving his point. AOE was able to use limited development funds and unoriginal ideas and attain fantastic market success. Game developers don't give a shit about you and your gamer friends' opinions (which are pretty irrelevant, anyway, most casual gamers have a very small breadth of experience with games), they care about eating.

Bah...

[Amorpheus_MMS]

They make games out of everything these days.

Frodo Tanks

[Mordarion]

Hey, if the game has Mammoth Frodo Tanks, then I'm sold.

Re:Frodo Tanks

[chip_s_ahoy]

I don't know what the hell that means, but it is funny.

'course, I have been sampling some local brew...

Re:The curse of 'Tolkienism'

[Anonymous Coward]

Hehe, he said "Sauramon". Is that like Pokemon?

Re:appropriate?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahem,
I think some bookish geeks are a little out of touch with reality.

People want to make money. LOTR is popular right now, so, of course there are going to be games about it. What are the "safest" games to make, in a "what will make money" sense? War games. Hmmmm, especially war games modeled after Warcraft 3 (and they even have units that can turn into bears!!)

So, I think the general populace is safe from this evil propaganda machine. Hmmm, I bet that the general populace will never even know that this game existed, since most of them are busy playing a little RPG called reality.
You may have heard of it. Or not.

Some nitpicking

[cosmol]

You are thinking of the midas touch, not the golden goose.

AI?

[Anonymous Coward]

Without the AI engine, Massive (do your own Googling), used to create the real combat scenes, it would just be a disappointment. We want, and even need, better AI in games. If the enemy soldier beaten to almost death don't (as explained on the Massive pages) "run for the hills", it will be yet another pale copy of Command&Conquer... or even worse, Starcraft...

Re:Patience? I dunno...

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus. Where's that "I Vomit On Toddlers" guy when we need him?

Does it have to be RTS?

[PhxBlue]

I will say up-front that I'm not a fan of "real-time strategy." For that reason alone, I probably will not buy any LotR RTS game, no matter that I love the movies and the book both.

I think it would be possible to do this in a turn-based game; and it might even turn out better. Does anyone remember the strategy game "War of the Lance," based in the DragonLance universe and published some 12 or so years ago? The graphics obviously weren't as well-developed; but a lot of the concepts behind "War of the Lance" and this proposed "War of the Rings" game could be very similar.

There's such a glut of RTS games already - quite a few of them good on their own merits, that I fear this game faces an uphill battle to begin with. Better to let it shine in a genre that's been all but forgotten the last few years.

Two days after it comes out......

[cbuskirk]

"Man I thought this game was going to rock but all anyone does is Elefunt rush 5 minutes into the game"

Re:Two days after it comes out......

[Anonymous Coward]

Oliphant?

Re:Two days after it comes out......

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't that be Mumakil? Or perhaps an Ent rush for the good guys...

Re:Two days after it comes out......

[AndroidCat]

Nah, too slow! While the other players build up their forces, kill them with a Hobbit rush in two minutes. Just like in the book. :^P

Unimpressed over here...

[secolactico]

*yawn*

Yet another Starcraft/Warcraft/Dune2/whatever RTS clone. Only with a Tolkien theme! (oh, joy!)

So, this game will be about mining resources, building barracks, "buying" soldiers, researching upgrades and rushing attacks... nothing new to see here.

Flame on.

Related Pix for the lazy

[dave1212]

Pic 1....... Pic 2........ Pic 3 ........ Pic 4.... Pic 5............. Pic 6.... ...... Pic 7.........Pic 8

disgusting

[Anonymous Coward]

The make a commercial computer game of a book which is anti-modernist. How ironic.

Not clouds

[Anonymous Coward]

The map itself was relatively featureless at this stage of development but boasted some great grass textures and trees, which were occasionally shadowed by the suggestion of clouds passing overhead.

Clouds? Those are Nazgul flying overhead!
[eerie music sounds]
Mwhuahaha!

Sounds great! But..

[Anonymous Coward]

isn't Warcraft III "a Warcraft III like LOTR game"?

SIMantics?

[Anonymous Coward]

so is it a resource strategy action game, a strategy game or a tactical army combat game?

I only mention this because it seems the term "strategy" is thrown around like so much unwanted trash so that it is hard to really know if the underlying game really is a STRATEGY game. I hear some bitching about certain strategy games and that you don't have as fine a control over individual units as they want yet strategy means just this particular method of control. WRONG! That is tactical level micromanagement and is not strategy. Strategic thinking may be incorporated at various levels throughout the game but please understand the battle aspects of strategy and chain of command. You are the king or general, not a corporal or even a lieutenant much less the privates and lance corporal grunts.

now back to your regular programming

One Line Titles = Moron

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the matter, cat got your tongue?

Anyone here remember that old Civ2 LOTR scenario?

[SuperMario666]

That was like the best Civilization scenario ever. It really seemed to capture the desperation of the forces of good and pretty much the only way to beat it was to follow the general outline of the story and take the ring "unit" to Mordor. Mad props to whoever made it.

Fah!

[Anonymous Coward]

how do you rush zergs? for that matter, how do you rush zergs by building them from barracks?

Anyone care to guess how long until a LOTR MMORPG?

[SuperMario666]

I'm thinking two years max. I'm not sure what kind of scenario they'd set up, but it would be a blast to go on some "The Hobbit" style adventures with some online friends.

The game of my dreams :)

[Khalidz0r]

I am waiting for this game like I never waited for a game.

Lord Of The Rings is a very interesting fantasy story, and I advice everybody who haven't read it yet to *read* it.

Watching movies might be fun, but reading it is very great. It is one of the best peices of art I've been exposed to. Tolkien is a genius.

This game might just be using the great story to sell a product that's not as good as the story itself, but I have high hopes in the game. A real time strategy game is just what fits this style of stories :).

We want a game up to the level of LotR, please!

Thanks for reading,

Khalid

Re:Anyone here remember that old Civ2 LOTR scenari

[Anonymous Coward]

It was good, but hardly the "best ever". The professionally made scenarios were damn good (the ones you were actually supposed to buy in the various expansion packs), and there was some other one... I can't remember the name off the top of my head, but it was hilarious... yeah, I know that doesn't help you at all. Oh well.

Re:Anyone care to guess how long until a LOTR MMOR

[Geaty]

I think this is already in production. To lazy for a google search but I'm pretty sure. What is the world coming to I swear.

This game will be a truly monumental achievement

[voodoo1man]

But first, let me comment on this quote:

More impressive still were the character models on display, which, although unfinished, bore more than a passing resemblance to the colorful, stylized units of Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos.

Ignoring the startingly strange opinion that half-done art with an "inspired" style (if you don't have lawyers, this is called "copyright theft") is "impressive," I as a fan of LOTR must take objection to to the "colorful, stylized" part. There are other, much more subtle ways to differentiate small units in a strategy game.

Now, to my original thought:

[WOTR] isn't being designed as a hard-core real-time strategy game, but ... as an RTS that will be accessible and fun ... fans of [LOTR] who might never have played a strategy game before ... Liquid Entertainment hopes to incorporate a variable difficulty level .. in which the strength of the enemy will be automatically determined by how well you are doing ... how quickly you are managing to build units.

I think it is a monumental task to dumb down what today constitutes an RTS, but Liquid Entertainment is trying. God help us all - this game can't help but sell well, and whatever features it has are sure to be copied by future RTS clones. There go the last elements of strategy - don't worry if you can't even amass a tank rush, the game dumbs itself down! Of course, you have to consider that this thinking is implying that 'tank rushes' constitute strategy and are difficult to do. This is the reason why I switched to turn-based after Myth II.

Hopefully not another Theme Game

[The Keyer]

I hope this does not end up like the StarWars thing. StarWars is an amazingly over used Title. May of there game are just bad graphics and storyline with the name "StarWars" in the title. It is for this reason that I never look at these games when I decide what kind game I want to buy.

I can only hope that these devoplers don't make the same mistake in the LotR title.

Re:appropriate?

[mad.frog]

So what's the drawback? I feel that it risks glorifying war.

You don't need to look ahead to see a game doing that. Look at C&C Generals, out right now, which rather blatantly glorifies war... against Middle-Eastern terrorists, no less.

Warcraft 3 is so similar

[SurgeonGeneral]

Many of the characters and units from Warcraft 3 appear to be derived or borrowed from the Lord of the Rings. The Warcraft 3 creature types are very similar (Elves, Humans, Orcs and Undead), heros bear a resemblance to those in LOTR and IMHO Warcraft 3 itself could have been marketed under the name War of the Rings. Warcraft 3 has benifitted greatly from LOTR inspired mythology. This should be interesting then because in order to not be almost a replica it will have to be more innovative and groundbreaking than even Warcraft 3, which I hold very highly in this regard. I'll be very interested in the outcome.

In any case, by the sound of the time period of this thing it will serve as a nice interim between WC3 and WC4.

Re:Warcraft 3 is so similar

[mabinogi]

> In any case, by the sound of the time period of, this thing it will serve as a nice interim, between WC3 and WC4

hmm..you obviously don't know much about Blizzard if you think there'll be a WC4 any time this decade, let alone by 2005 ;)

We'll be lucky if we even see WoW by then...

Re:Warcraft 3 is so similar

[Stonehand]

Well, no kidding. Axe-carrying dwarves, woods-dwelling elves, elderly staff-bearing wizards, and foul orcs were brought to the masses in LOTR.

Plenty of subsequent fantasy books, games and movies probably draw upon that, the same way many draw upon fantasy-medieval-European themes -- it saves work, and makes the material more accessible to readers who are already familiar with the rehashed ideas.

OT: plain text of Tolkien available?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know this is OFF TOPIC, but can someone point to me a repository of plaintext files of Tolkien's work? LOTR would great, more Tolkien would be awesome. I know some are out there, I downloaded FOTR quite some time ago, but now just try and google for something LOTR and get through the movie slag! sigh.

Re:Bah instead of making a regular RTS it should b

[jlechem]

An LoTR RPG based on the style of Fallout or Arcanum would kick even more ass.

Oh good

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure the game market has been waiting years for better grass, trees and models with clouds passing overhead.

Hitler's Germany and LoTR?

[MsGeek]

There is something distinctly Nazi about Saruman and his operations. Him and his "master race" of humanised Orcs...you caught a distinct whiff of Adolf from Saruman.

And if Saruman was a Hitler figure, where does that leave his boss, Sauron? Considering that JRR Tolkien was a very devout Christian, Sauron was none other than Satan. The Fallen Angel. The Great Deceiver. A giver of gifts with definite strings attached. Hitler as a minion of Satan? Not really a stretch if you accept a Christian worldview. I'm sure many Christians believed that Hitler was the Antichrist and that WWII was Armageddon.

You cannot read LOTR and NOT get a sense that it was an allegory of what was going on in the background, namely World War II.

Re:Hitler's Germany and LoTR?

[Anonymous Coward]

And the great weapon that the ring represented was really a nuclear arsenal.

And the humans being exterminated in Rohan were the jews. And the people of Gondor were definetly the French.

Then what were the elves? Americans? Russians? British? Hmm.. that one's tough. How about Elves were British, Ents Russians, and for the sake of sybolism,the big eagles were Americans.

The shire is Bethlehem, because Jesus the savior came from there.
Or mabye Jesus was really Gandalf(the long hair).

Wow these books were really confusing, and all this time I had just taken Tolkien's words for it that the story was in no way allegorical

Re:Hitler's Germany and LoTR?

[CommieOverlord]

I seem to recall that Tolkien firmly denied accusations that his book drew upon events of WWII.

Re:Hitler's Germany and LoTR?

[johnwroach]

And Christianity.

Great!

[Anonymous Coward]

They can whore this movie out real good.

Book, then movie, then clothes, then game, then mousepad, then Lord of the Rings flavoured condoms!

Well, not that any serious LotR fans would ever need a condom.

RTS...bleh

[DumbWhiteGuy777]

RTS?! Where's my LOTR-Sims game?! "Damn you Aragorn! Stop overflowing the toilet, and get a job!"

To understand Tolkien...

[MsGeek]

...you must understand his belief system. LotR is very black-and-white in its view because JRR Tolkien was a very devout Christian. The scenario of the book of Revelation is cast in values of 100% black and 100% white. The Holy Trinity vs. the unholy trinity of Satan, the Antichrist and the False Prophet. How could LotR be anything else? It's the same with CS Lewis' fiction, too. Narnia, the Mars Trilogy...it's all very good vs. evil because it's very Christian in its world view.

Unfortunately, this is the very same world view of the fundamentalists who run the US, and the fundamentalists of Al'Qaeda that we are fighting against. Both see themselves as absolute good fighting absolute evil. And that's why we are in such a big mess.

Hmmm...'LotR' and 'Warcraft'...Hmmm...

[Shturmovik]

...one of the differences for me will be the fact that 'LotR' force-fed us characters, while 'Warcraft' let us develop them in our imaginations. So, lessee, in 'Warcraft' we had pointless scenarios populated with fabulously gay archers, mind-squashingly dull humans, fiendishly illogical mage/wizards and some stupid, *stupid* Orcs...oh, no, wait -- that was 'Lord of the Rings'...

Re:Hmmm...'LotR' and 'Warcraft'...Hmmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called "character development" and "plot," I'm afraid. Very common in the types of media that adults consume, but sadly lacking in most video games.

LOTR is not as neat or clean cut as you say

[Brian_Ellenberger]

people would rather view their complex world in terms of a neat, all-ends tied up, good vs. evil novel like LoTR. The characters are all very straightforward, and you never have to wonder if Gandalf has ulterier motives.

What LoTR did you read? Mine had basically every character (including Gandalf) tempted by the ring and its power. Galadriel fantasized about taking it. Boromir tried to take it. The ring twisted Frodo and Bilbo greatly. Denethor was a pretty screwed up king and very distrustful of Aragorn and Gandalf, and for good reason because Gandalf had an ulterior motive in that he thought Aragon should be king.

Surprisingly the movie actually does an excellent job showing these conflicts--especially with regards to Gollum. Is Gollum good or evil? Not exactly a clear cut question. If this was the simplistic story you are describing Gollum would just be an enemy to be defeated. Instead he is given mercy and forgiveness.

It's a good story, but a dangerous way to view the world for those not sophisticated enough to look past it..Anyhow, this is why it's important to push people through to more complex literative and stories where people aren't good or evil, but who work towards their own logical (or not) ends.

The problem I think you are having is not that the characters are too simplistic but that the universe is "too simplistic" in that it HAS a sense of "good" and a sense of "evil". Seeing morality as "working towards their own logical ends" is Moral Relativism. It implies that there is no outside or objective good or evil---what works towards my good end is good and what works against me is evil.

What you have to realize is that not everyone sees the world in this manner and it is arrogant to believe that those who are not Moral Relativists are somehow not sophisticated enough.

With regards to this whole Iraq situation, one of the problems is that many Americans are not relativists while many Europeans are. One example of how Non-Relativists see the Iraq situations as "Gassed own people;Invaded other countries;Was beaten and agreed to disarm;Failed to Disarm;Must do something". I can't speak for the relativists but I believe many view it from the end back "US want to invade Iraq;US must have motive; Iraq has oil and US needs oil;US must be trying to take Iraq oil". Of course there is many more threads to this. These are just small examples.

In fact I find many of the war protestors arguments as utterly unsophisticated. I'm sorry but a French protestor holding a "No blood for oil" sign doesn't cut it when France has more oil interests in Iraq than any other country (ex. TotalFinaElf). All too often the protests degrade into rather unsophisticated Bush namecalling instead of trying to understand his arguments and motivations. Sure oil is a big consideration, but if all we cared about was oil we would serve Israel on a silver platter to the Arab League tomorrow and would not give a crap if it was Saddam or Adolf himself selling us the oil.

Brian Ellenberger

The Flamewar Lives On

[LPetrazickis]

No, it won't. Total Annihilation was and always will be.:D

Warlords Battlecry II and Kohan are also quite good.:) ,br>

Re:The Flamewar Lives On

[Archfeld]

Warlords Battlecry II is a sleeper. I got the game and did not like it but went back after a few months and wow..it really plays well :)

Try the Recent Civ2 LotR Scenarios

[LPetrazickis]

Favoured Flight (Interview) has recently made some really good LotR scenarios for Civ2.

Despite the release of the craptastic Civ3, the Civ2 scenario-making community is still going strong. Spanish Civ2 Site has an excellent scenario collection; many of the more recent scenario can be found at Civilization Fanatics Centre; myself, I run the Scenario League resource for designers and can be often spotted in the Apolyton Forums.

Just FYI, of course.:)

Old news...

[BoneFlower]

There was a War of the Ring game years ago, I probably have it around here somewhere. Definitely highly on the strategic level, with small bits of a non linear computer RPG thrown in. You could even take the fellowship through Goblin Town, where I had Gandalf alone take out some 400 goblins, the rest of the fellowship took out the rest.

LOTR Icon!

[bacontaco]

Why can't we have an icon specially for Lord of the Rings? C'mon, we have a Star Wars icon, and now we want one for LOTR!

But...

[Cyno01]

Most Hobbitses aren't into adventuring, just the Bagginses and the ocasional Took.

Total War

[Brian_Ellenberger]

The Total War games can get into the tens of thousands and still look pretty cool. The battlefields are huge as well. Check out: http://www.totalwar.com/

All those people griping about RTS games being stagnant just haven't looked hard enough.

Brian Ellenberger

Re:Total War

[Obiwan Kenobi]

The Total War games can get into the tens of thousands and still look pretty cool.

This is because of a little trick called using 2D sprites for the army, and not having fully 3d characters.

Right now, thousands of 3d characters on screen at one time is impossible, but Total War's 2d replacements aren't half bad.

Come On...!

[Shturmovik]

Those little moving dots in 'Warcraft' had more depth than the characters in 'LotR'! And the dialogue was better too. ;)

Re:Come On...!

[damien_kane]

the dialogue was better too. ;)

Zug-zug

Warcraft III Bashing

[DredPirateRoberts]

if you're Blizzard, you can get away with making incremental changes to your games...

I don't know about you, but even though the gameplay was similar to Warcraft II, I thought the story in the single player campaign of Warcraft 3 was worth what I paid right there... then I get the bonus of getting my butt kicked on the Battle.net for no additional charge!

I hope they release a Linux version

[pair-a-noyd]

If not they don't have a hair on their asses...
Come on guys, LINUX SUPPORT PLEASE !!!

Sorry, doesn't look that good to me

[Obiwan Kenobi]

And I'll tell you why:

" According to Marcus Lindblom, the game's producer, War of the Ring isn't being designed as a hard-core real-time strategy game, but rather more as an RTS that will be accessible and fun for both strategy fans and fans of The Lord of the Rings who might never have played a strategy game before"

You know what? I want to play a game based on Lord of the Rings, the first of its kind, to be for strategy fans. I want it to be for those of us with a lot of experience, who are looking for something new and innovative, yet at the same time incorporating all that has come before.

I want to see the orcs crawling over the mountains in the distance, covering them like bugs as they advance. I want to see the classic over-the-horizon shot as an army of uru'khai come to wage war. I want a Risk-like map available showing me where I can move my troops in position, and then be able to switch to a warcraft-3 like view to see the ensuing battles.

I want the slow buildup of supplies and buildings, and long sessions with cabinet members on how best to defend my kingdom. If this is real time strategy, it doesn't have to go at Warcraft 3's pace. I don't need another Warcraft 3 mod that has Lord of the Rings characters and a "Warcraft 3-esque" storyline. You know why? Becuase people have modded Warcraft 3 enough already that there are maps that replay the adventures in The Fellowship of the Ring (playable w/ 8 of your friends) and The Battle of Helms Deep. I don't want a few more units, some new models and a screwed up story. If you're going to go, do it right!

This is one of the single biggest opportunities that a game designer could have and they are screwing it up so they can get sales. I'm sure they'll try to put this out on all platforms (probably not GBA, but hell, in some marketing meeting they might throw out the possibility for laughs), on all systems, so they can make tons of cash and have the Click Button Repeatedly To Win syndrome that is so common nowadays. You ever played The Two Towers on PS2 or PC? Same concept. Oh sure, there are "combos", but really, you're just mashing the same buttons over and over.

Think of a combination of Medieval: Total War (and for that matter Shogun: Total War) and Warcraft 3 and Master of Orion. You could have commanders that report to you, building guilds who construct defense structures, a cabinet to help advise you, and then, when the battle heats up, you can go there and watch it happen.

Are we really so void of time and in such a hurry that a half-way thinking man's LOTR RTS is impossible?

I'd like to think not.

Re:Sorry, doesn't look that good to me

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what? I want to play a game based on Lord of the Rings, the first of its kind, to be for strategy fans.

Game publishers don't care about "what you want." They care about the bottom line, like any business.

The game will appeal to the largest number of people possible, which means the unsophisticated, easily-amused kind. Too bad for all of us.

Four words for you...

[BluRBD!E]

Seek. Professional. Sex. Therapy.

Re:The curse of 'Tolkienism'

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually Saruman the White was a good guy. He called himself "many coloured" after turning evil. Maybe a sign that multiracialism is bad?!

Weta

[StormcallerESC]

The question has to be asked: Why isn't Weta making this game? Sure, they're not exactly a game development studio, but in conjunction with such a company they could put their Massive software to good use in RTS form. Half the work is done - the A.I. is already there, and it would be relatively easy for them to scale down Massive. Furthermore, they have high quality models and animations of all of the heroes and other characters already.

On a seperate note, who gave Vivendi the right to take over lotr.com and lordoftherings.com?

Re:Patience? I dunno...

[Cuthalion]

It's not a war game, so you might not like it, but Reiner Knizia's Lord Of The Rings board game is an interesting take on adapting the story to board game form - and pretty fun!

Gandalf as Christ-figure

[MsGeek]

Gandalf is unmistakeably a Christ-figure. Gandalf The Grey sacrifices himself for the rest of the Fellowship in his battle with the Balrog, supposedly perishes, yet returns, transfigured, as Gandalf The White. No spoilers here...I figure most of you all have watched "LOTR: The Two Towers" and those who haven't have read the books.

LOTR was indeed allegory. Methinks Tolkien didst protest too much. It was written during WWII and has the period's fingerprints all over it. It also was written by a devout Christian, and where there isn't reference made to WWII there is reference to Christian concepts of the End Times.

Don't get me started on the Dune Chronicles and its parallels to Western and Near Eastern culture clashes throughout the millenia. The Oil...er, The Spice must flow, y'know...;-)

WBC2 Does Rock

[LPetrazickis]

That it does. I will go back to it eventually and either finishing a second campaign with my Fey Bard or make a new hero.:)

Kohan: Immortal Sovereigns
Kohan: Ahriman's Gift
Warlords Battlecry II
Total Annihilation

Did he really sacrifice himself?

[Microsift]

It seems like Gandalf's plan was to destroy the bridge, and in so doing destroy(or at least delay) the Balrog. The Balrog's whip snagging him seemed unexpected.

Re:Anyone care to guess how long until a LOTR MMOR

[BJH]

It was in production. It got killed sometime around the end of last year, I think.

Re:The curse of 'Tolkienism'

[Anonymous Coward]

Then explain Radagast, the Brown. No terrorist, to be sure. More like a hippie.

War of the ring

[Don Halflingleg]

I think we may have enough versions of the the games now.
If you read the book you don't need 10 different games to impulse your fantasy.
(Some drawings from the game looked really cool though).