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Yet you are so sure its the word of god ?
Like wise, on one knows who wrote the ancient hindu, islamic and buddhist texts...
And there are MANY more people who believe in these other religions.
If I was a tarzan(or an alien if u'd rather) who met a "civilized" man for the first time, how do u convince me that the bible and not these other books state the word of god ?
For eg all hindus and most buddhist sects believe in re-birth which is totally opposite to christian beliefs. Your argument is not cogent enough to make these 1 billion plus belivers switch over(and vice vera)
Shouldnt it be convincing ? when u say that the bible is the only light that god has given to save u from eternal damnation...

Millions and MILLIONS of hindus, buddhists and assorted ppl like american indians, africans, eskimos etc have been BORN AND DIED since jesus stepped on earth.
What do u say has happened to their souls ? Are you trying to tell me that god condemned them to hell merely because of an accident of birth ? Because they were not BORN christians with no one to tell them the word of god ?
Shouldnt they have been born with a copy of the bible at birth ?(or a bible CD.. many ppl in this world still cant read)..then god can say "look i told u the way to save your soul, but u didnt listen...u listened to ur parents. what did ur parenst do for u ? fed u and loved you for 18 yrs? for that u betray me??!! now ur fucked".
Many of these non believers, pagans etc LIVE AND DIE in the most pathetic way possible. Go to somalia/sudan in africa or orissa in india for good examples. people are so hungry if you give them the bible they'd probably eat it. I an NOT tryin to be funny here. Its a life WORSE than HELL.
Are you tryin to tell me that these people too will be punished ? For WHAT fault of theirs ?

Most importantly, what does the bible/koran/etc have to say for this..The koran says ALL nonbelievers will be punished. PERIOD. It also says dont make friends with pagans, dont get "be-guiled" by their children(sic) and so many other twisted things, it makes the bible look like afairy tale. Thats a potential ONE billion more people who belive in this shit.

Look where its leading some diehard muslims.. they believe som much in this fantasy of heaven, they fuck up their own and other peoples lives. how can u a peaceful christain GARUNTEE that ur current beliefs will not create an avalanche of hate and bigotry in later generations.(this has happened with christianity earlier and is happening now with hindus and muslims)

THATS the power of wrong belief.. why are you so sure your belief is the right one ?

My understanding from what I've read from first person accounts is you judge yourself, God doesn't judge in the traditional Christianity sense.

www.near-death.com is the basis of my beliefs.

I highly recommend Camus' "The Myth of Sisyphus" for a 3rd approach. He states that with both theism and atheism there is a point at which you make a leap and state something. "There is a god" or "There is no god" and from that assumption there falls a series of logical conclusions. His approach is not to make that leap.

I must have read a different Myth of Sisyphus than you because I certainly didn't get that out of it.

I don't agree with your argument either. The mistake it makes is to assume that the atheist (or the theist) is stating an assertion, as opposed to stating a belief. Your belief isn't an on/off switch. I can't control my beliefs anymore than I can control feelings of guilt, doubt, love, envy, joy, etc. An atheist is something I am, not something I chose to be.

that's because many people of faith are motivated by fear.

my faith is driven by the sense of awe and beauty i feel when i observe the world.

and my observations are colored by a lifetime of scientific pursuits.

and yes i believe in evolution, and i don't think cloning is the devils work....i don't think the world was created in the manner the bible stated: 7 modern literal days.

anyway.

if you see religions with big giant HOLES in it idealogy...that's absolutely fine.

religion != god
religion != faith

religions are an organization unit.

just like the physics club...back in high school the physics club got me interested in physics, i have long since quit the club...but i continue to pursue certain aspects. my idea of what physics was all about has changed dramatically since then, and i look back at how much politics and cheerleading was a part of such a club. a club that was supposed to be about pure science. (yea right)..there were worthless pursuits, fundraising, electing of presidents and all sorts of bs that had nothing to do with the important ideas.

the same thing can be said of religion...it's heavily flawed...but for some of us..it was just an accidental stepping stone to information that was somewhat useful.

Note the subtle but important difference between proclaiming the truth, and what you believe to be the truth. Especially in the topic of religion, it is important to note that what you believe - no matter how strongly - can be refuted by someone else with equally strong beliefs - making each person's concept of "truth" false in the other's eyes. So I would argue that you are not proclaiming truth, so much as a belief or idea in which you hold strong ties. Faith is not truth. Truth is something undeniable. God, or any religious sect, can be denied at will, without anything to refute that denial aside from your own opinions.

As for your other comments (I won't quote them here to save space) ... Before it became the state religion in Rome, people worshipping Jesus/God and thereby denying the current polytheistic views were persecuted and killed at will. The views of Jesus were held within a relatively small group (considered a cult at the time) under fear of death, until some generations went by and it could be documented. Now, given that the Roman government at the time had say over all religions, don't you think there was considerable pressure (i.e. mandated) to document the Bible in certain ways? I really do feel this is why there is the hatred towards women and gays, and other people, in the Bible today. I also have to wonder about the portrayal of Jesus himself given the political pressure.

Of course these topics are what some people spend their lives studying - to think either you or I have total knowledge on it is folly. What you and I post here is merely what we've been told, potentially by biased minds that will only believe a certain thing.

"My point is that people who have used religion for power were not following Jesus. In reality the Bible (and Christianity) continues to endure because it is in fact what it claims to be, the Word of God."

OK I will quote this much ... Umm, then explain to me the several hundred years of English history which were so closely tied into the forced spread of Christanity that these years of man's time would not exist without it? People were burned at the stake if they did not acknowledge God in the Christian sense. How is this not using religion for power? Entire wars were fought over the desire to make others believe in God, whether they liked it or not. This is absolutely the use of power to force religion.

Whether it's the word of God or not, it has endured for a number of reasons, including fear of denial by one's own peers even today. (Yes, I am speaking truth here, not something I pulled from my ass.) It has propogated for more cheerful reasons too of course, but to say that every person who follows it does so completely of free will and not by an underlying desire to be liked by everyone else is ignorance. I've seen it. I know.

Thats about the best decription of my belief system I've ever read. My traditional answer to "Do you believe in god" is "Who the hell cares, you'll find out when you're dead one way or the other". Why not just live for this life and work out the rest later?

Look, first of all, read Mere Christianity, Lewis does a much better job of explaining things than I.

I will try to do my best, though. God exists. He is perfectly good, and he is also perfectly just. His perfect justice means that if you break his perfect rules, he basically has no choice but to punish you, because if he failed to do so, he would not be perfectly just.

Now, man exists. Man is sinful, ie he naturally breaks God's law. Now, in order for God to be perfectly just, he must punish man for breaking his law. But there is a problem, God loves man as only God can. To punish man appropriately, he would have to kill him, which goes against his loving nature. There is an intrinic conflict.

What is the solution? God becomes fully man in his Son Jesus, and in doing so is able to take the full punishment all humankind deserved to receive. So, the punishment for our sins has already been dealt out, and we are forgiven. But, here's the catch: You have to believe that he actually did this in order to receive the forgiveness. If you don't, you get the punishment you deserve, end of story.

Now you can believe God doesn't exist. If he exists, and he is as perfect as I say he is, then you are going to be punished, regardless of your belief. The only way you are going to be forgiven and saved is if you believe that he died for your sins.

You can call this "Turn or Burn" if you like, but regardless, you have to make a choice, is it true or not?

Even babies are born with sin, it is a curse on all humanity, though, in ancient times there is what is called an age of accountability, which I think was like 12 years old. I believe there is sufficient justification to believe that babies who die at birth are not judged, simply because they aren't accountable under the law of God, just as youth offenders are often not held accountable as adults.

According to your own religion, humans can never attain the status of God. If your religion is "right" (thusly negating all other religions in the world with people who believe in them as strongly as you do in yours) I think there is a very good reason for this - Humans can never achieve the same level of unbiased objective judgement as God. This is illustrated quite constantly by self-righteous people such as yourself. You of all people should know that judgement is not your job, you are to be but a follower. Do not try and play God little one, or I fear on your judgement day you may be surprised. I think your time here on Earth (you know, that planet we're on? Welcome to it!) might be a lot more enjoyable if you simply learned to accept others no matter what their belief.

I don't follow the Judeo-Christian beliefs (i.e. the bible) because I feel it misses the mark on many areas; it's existence was forced on people for hundreds of years, which IMO is why it was allowed to endure - this is published fact. The writings in the bible itself are somewhat the result of political pressure - this is fact as well.

right, when it comes right down to it - We're ALL agnostic.

there is no way that we know, one way or another.

you're talking about post Martin Luther Protestant Chritianity.

I.E. Man is a heap of dung that must be covered with the virgin white snow of the saviour in order to be saved.

Which is drastically different than the Catholic interpretation.

geez.... I went to way too many years of jesuit education....

Including babies who die at birth?

Actually genocide and other evil things are caused by people, not meaningless or random chance, whatever that is. So isn't the solution to preventing evil also in the people?

Oh, sod off. You know, you had been reasonable up to this point. You folks just can't get enough of the threats, can you? Any religion that relies on threats of torture in order to propagate itself is completely and utterly devoid of worth, and it's unfortunate that so many Christians end up taking this road when they find themselves painted into a corner. "Turn or burn" is not the most effective evangelical method, you know.

Incidentally, just because you don't believe that you're a slobbering fundamentalist loony doesn't mean that it isn't true!

And just because you do believe it doesn't make it so. But thanks for postulating your beliefs down our throats.

According to your own religion, humans can never attain the status of God. If your religion is "right" (thusly negating all other religions in the world with people who believe in them as strongly as you do in yours) I think there is a very good reason for this - Humans can never achieve the same level of unbiased objective judgement as God. This is illustrated quite constantly by self-righteous people such as yourself. You of all people should know that judgement is not your job, you are to be but a follower. Do not try and play God little one, or I fear on your judgement day you may be surprised. I think your time here on Earth (you know, that planet we're on? Welcome to it!) might be a lot more enjoyable if you simply learned to accept others no matter what their belief.

I think, and believe, that the world needs a good set of moral guidelines. I think the world has that. I also think there are those who are immoral and unjust, who are infectious like a virus to the rest of civilization. However to blindly state that all we need to do is accept God or we'll burn when the shit really hits the fan (by the way wasn't that supposed to have happened by now? hmm) is a completely ignorant viewpoint by an increasingly naieve and complacent belief structure, and I will not be surprised in the least when your beautiful world comes crashing down around you.

Personally, I DO believe in the existence of something much greater than ourselves. I do not think we will ever 100% explain why we're here, for to do so would be the end of all exploration and innovation. You can call this "greater power" God, Allah, or whatever else you want. I don't follow the Judeo-Christian beliefs (i.e. the bible) because I feel it misses the mark on many areas; it's existence was forced on people for hundreds of years, which IMO is why it was allowed to endure - this is published fact. The writings in the bible itself are somewhat the result of political pressure - this is fact as well. Open your eyes and believe what you will, but stop trying to force your personal choices down on the rest of us. It is because of closed-minded views like yours that the wars of this world endure.

Actually genocide and other evil things are caused by people, not meaningless or random chance, whatever that is. So isn't the solution to preventing evil also in the people?

I think you might be over-simplifying my statement, or perhaps I just didn't say what I meant clearly enough. I didn't intend to say that atheist's believe behavior is dictated by random chance. I meant that [some] atheist's believe the existence (and thus the origin) of evil in the world is meaningless (or random, ie arising simply as the result of random chance). I am not really talking about the 'events', but more the general problem of evil in this world (genocide, greed, etc).

And as for you being a 'good' person, I sincerely hope you aren't banking on that to save you when judgement day comes, because it isn't going to make a bit of difference. I know, I know, you don't believe in God, and thus you don't believe that you are ever going to be judged (and punished), but just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it isn't true!

Allow me to elucidate so that I can more clearly explain what I inferred from your comment. I am an atheist. I am also, by any reasonable standards, a "good" person. By this, I mean that I pay my taxes. I obey the laws (well, I might speed a bit in the car from time to time and pull down the occasional MP3 from Gnutella, but I'm not hurting anybody.) I treat other people well. I donate money to charities. I hold the door open for little old ladies at the grocery store. I've never been convicted of (or accused of) a crime in my life. Unless you attach some narrow religious qualifier on the definition of "good", I don't see how the point can be made that I, in general, am not "good."

You are suggesting that atheists believe that my behavior in this manner is a result of complete random chance. This is silliness. Might I, at some point, encounter a stranger on the street and stab them to death, and then look down horrified at a bloody knife and say "Oh, no! Drat that random chance! Look what I've done now!"

Yes, it's true that life does not need to have a grand purpose for it to be worthwhile and enjoyable. That has nothing to do with good and evil being "random events", as you postulate. There are lots of random events that happen in the universe, but moral and ethical behaviors are not among them. Thousands of years of human civilization have taught us that there are behaviors that are harmful to society in general and that there are behaviors that are beneficial. The Bible does not have a monopoly on basic rules such as "thou shalt not kill" .. as it turns out, that's a pretty easy one to figure out.

...without evidence either way, but on the balance of evidence..."

Perhaps a better way to have said that would be that I won't say there is no god without evidence (or vice versa), but the fact there has been no evidence supporting god's existence suggests it is less probable it does.

So, with religion, you get a whole lot of crap dumped on you at square one, then you shake your head and say 'those atheist fools! How can they handle life?'. If you drop all the religion baggage it makes life a lot more palatable, and it's kind of easier to enjoy what's good in life for it's own sake.

This is just my experience after being brought up by a large cast of well-meaning religious types.