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You're not looking at the big picture, kiddo. You will see, however. And you will not have to wait long.

Now I don't ever recall making a statement about the UK, so please leave that irrelevant country out of the discussion.

GWB is also completely irrelevant, he wasn't elected because he was a Christian, little guy. Most Europeans will give up their freedom like prostitutes, something which is unfortunately becoming a trend in the US.

What exactly are you talking about, removed? Have you ever seen the effect of a godless society.

Ha! Wait, you're seeing it right now. As America moves further and futher away from God

, you will see more school shootings, and you will see the morons in this country scratching their heads and saying "gawsh, guess we need more gun control".

When you start talking about religion, expect a firey response... some people actually believe in something.

What a bunch of crap far-right bullshit !

Have you ever seen the effect of a godless society.

Hum yeah, western Europe ? Much less violence than in the land-of-the-biggot USA. And as far as I know there aren't any school shooting in Russia either...

Ha! Wait, you're seeing it right now. As America moves further and futher away from God

Seing how Bush is prez and Aschroft is where he is, I'd say America gets more religious every year.

you will see more school shootings

The stats say they are less and less, but I guess you don't know how to read either...

and you will see the morons in this country scratching their heads and saying "gawsh, guess we need more gun control".

Well, the country with the most school-shooting is also the one with the most gun/capita. Coincidence ? It's hard to kill 20 people in 10 minutes with just a kitchen knife.

some people actually believe in something.

Yeah, some believe in a huge pile of bullshit and then try to force it down the throat of those who don't believe the same. I've seen what's happen when religion is controlling the country (Iran or Afghanistan anyone ?) so let's get it out of here as soon as possible.

"They are the uncivilized ones. And this world will remain uncivilized until this mindset is removed."

What exactly are you talking about, removed? Have you ever seen the effect of a godless society. Ha! Wait, you're seeing it right now. As America moves further and futher away from God, you will see more school shootings, and you will see the morons in this country scratching their heads and saying "gawsh, guess we need more gun control". When you start talking about religion, expect a firey response...some people actually believe in something.

If they can put a "V" chip in a Tee Vee, they sure ought to put a "C" chip in there, too. "C" in this case means "commercial". If there's a pernicious element to current Tee Vee programming, it's those damn commercials, teaching your kids to be sluts like Britney Spears, promoting unrealistic values, increasing soulless, godless consumerism.

I'm tired of you commie pinkos trying to tell me which guns I can and can't have. "Being necessary to the security of a free state, the right to bear arms shall not be infringed." --2nd Amendment. So, in short, you soy eating, godless, Church of Satan youth basketball Nite league playing, primitive, reefer smoking, hippy screwheads can just suck my boom stick. I'm going to hunt with whatever the hell I want, as is my God given right (at least if Moses and the NRA have anything to say about it).

I'm not 100% comfortable myself with the bashing of religion around here, but on the other hand, I've seen too many people damaged by religion.

Damaged by religion or by the abuse of some religious beliefs?

I've seen people who are genuinely helped out of a dark place in their life by religion, yes

Me too.

- but many more who are put in that dark place by religion. Many more who find religion a convenient excuse to do what they were gonna do anyway (like hate people and stay indoors).

Is this any different than people who use scientific principles (e.g. survival of the fittest, eugenics) to justify hating people? Does abuse and misinterpretation of the principles make the underlying principles incorrect?

Many who use religion as a mind control device, so they can extract money, power, and allegiance from others - and MANY, MANY more who are victims of the above.

Once again, is this any different than using non-religious principles (e.g. Nationalism, Fascism, Communism, etc...) for the same purpose? I'm not saying that use of religion for these purposes is acceptable. Instead I'm just trying to point out that history teaches us that there will be those who try to take advantage of others, regardless of whether they use religion or some other belief system to accomplish their goal. You can't blame religion for the abuses of men. Eliminating religion would not prevent them!

For religion to serve a useful purpose for us as human beings, it should enable us to become more than what we are, and I don't mean after we die.

I completely agree, but are you sure it hasn't enabled many to become more than they would have been?

Personally, I have seen many cases where because of religion people have become more sensitive to the needs of those around them. I have seen members of a congregation rally around sick or terminally ill members. I have seen families helping other families when the father has lost his employment or when the mother has been committed to bed rest because of complications with a pregnancy. I have seen youth paint the house of an elderly couple. I have been involved in hundreds of other examples, which were the direct result of organized religion. If this isn't enabling man to overcome his selfish desires and elevating him to a higher level, then I don't know what is.

Instead it tends to make us LESS than we are - it tends to make us stop thinking, stop asking questions, and turn off the detectors in our head that light up when we hear bullshit and rhetoric.

To the contrary, religion has helped me to think more and to ask questions which science can't even hope to answer (at least during my lifetime). It has lead me to ponder on the nature of man and of life and drawn me to conclusions that help me lead a more fulfilling life. Sure, there are questions that it doesn't answer and there are apparent conflicts with some current scientific theories, however, this just helps me to realize how little I really understand about the world and encourages me to learn more.

It gives people an irrefutable authority to do whatever they want - if they can find a way to say "but the Bible says" or "but God says" - often without even having to justify it to themselves the way the godless heathens have to do. :-)

People with small minds will always find a way to convince themselves that their arguments are irrefutable and they are correct in what they do. The religious do not have a monopoly on rationalization.

Religion has tended to draw people into a state where they disbelieve what they see in favor of what they've been told - thus they gradually come to live in a world that bears no resemblance to reality. I've been there.

Religion, I thought it was public education? :-)

I'm not 100% comfortable myself with the bashing of religion around here, but on the other hand, I've seen too many people damaged by religion.

I've seen people who are genuinely helped out of a dark place in their life by religion, yes - but many more who are put in that dark place by religion. Many more who find religion a convenient excuse to do what they were gonna do anyway (like hate people and stay indoors). Many who use religion as a mind control device, so they can extract money, power, and allegiance from others - and MANY, MANY more who are victims of the above.

For religion to serve a useful purpose for us as human beings, it should enable us to become more than what we are, and I don't mean after we die. Instead it tends to make us LESS than we are - it tends to make us stop thinking, stop asking questions, and turn off the detectors in our head that light up when we hear bullshit and rhetoric. It gives people an irrefutable authority to do whatever they want - if they can find a way to say "but the Bible says" or "but God says" - often without even having to justify it to themselves the way the godless heathens have to do. :-) Religion has tended to draw people into a state where they disbelieve what they see in favor of what they've been told - thus they gradually come to live in a world that bears no resemblance to reality. I've been there.

As I said, I'm not comfortable with dismissing religion out of hand. But the notion that religion is used in all of the ways I listed above to make this country and this world into a violent, crippled shadow of what it could be, is something that I feel needs to be whacked on the head at every chance.

Alchin Declares Student Run IT shops are a plot by godless communists.

Hmm...
I really wonder what is your point.
Your conclusion seem to refute a point of mine "it will never prove your theory" saying "no theory is provable" when that's precisely my point.
Also, you're wrong, I didn't define hypothesis.
Here is a definition of theory:
- the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
- a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle - most logical explanation of events that occur in nature or body of principles offered to explain phenomena
Theories: - propose a central idea that connects observations.
- allow one to make predictions.
- encourage experimentation.
- suggest testable hypotheses.
- may be refuted then modified or abandoned.
- are never proven.
- must account for all observations.
- cannot be easily tested. (once easily and widely tested, theories become laws)
... more here
Anyway, I don't particulary agree with that very last point as I meant something slightly different, but nevertheless, I mainly think we were all wrong in the first place trying to be touchy about a so fuzzy definition :)
Anyway, your post (and the previous one) puzzle me and get me to the conclusion that in either case, i wasn't clear enough, as you do your best effort to prove me wrong when it seems you agree with me. (I mean, what you're saying sounds about what I was *trying* to say)
Ok, of course Einstein theory was tested in the way you mean it, ie, the model was tested, and yes, I know the experiment with the planes.
What I mean is, "the testable hypotheses" were tested, confirming the theory (not proving it).
Oh well.. I wonder how to make my point :) (really thought it was on the first post, but it's obvious I don't speak english that well)
Let's see: to cure a disease, one theory is about killing the germs with some plants extracts, while the other theory is about chasing demons with those very same extracts, and yet, another theory is that you must attract back the good spirits who love thoses extracts too.
So, with a very primitive knowledge, no way to actually prove germs even exists (you're just so sure), any of those theories is acceptable.
In the end, your predicion "I'll heal you with this" worked and confirmed your theory that demons don't like it.
In our more serious example, in the end, at the very end of universe exploration, we will be faced to the same kinds of limit as we are always limit to observe and interpret things. Finally, we will adopt the simplest, most useful model, but that won't make it "the truth" and certainly not for everybody.
I personally prefer an evolutionist theory, and at a larger scale a "godless" theory to explain the universe because it is simpler... cheaper...Although not necesarily "true"
So the whole point was that someone said "sadly it will still be a theory" and I understood he meant "in the end, that won't be any proof that this is how things are", and I happen to agree
But again, I think we started to be picky about a "theory definition" that wasn't the real point in the first place, and I did this very same mistake :) so i'm not criticizing any of you about it
Would just want to know if 'the point' is shared or not and why or why not :)
The only thing that really upset me is this: >Ensteinian theory, as elegant as it might be is not tested
Nonsense. Not only is it tested, it's been confirmed.
I don't know anyone who doesn't know about what you're talking about, so after I (did my poor best to) separated the theory from its hypotheses, you should have understood that what I meant by "theory" is a bit different than yours, but that's it
Oh well... wonder if it was clear this time :)

And I say 'mu'. The bible, for those who believe in it,
supercedes science. It is inherently illogical (or as
some uber religious types have informed me, it is 'above'
science).

I discovered, in arguing with a rather fundamentalist, that
we have separate underlying 'givens'. His first givens
(from which all of their other hypotheses are derived)
are God exists, the bible is literal, and jesus is a
manifestation of Gods presence on earth. Since I could
not get him to relinquish these givens, I could not get
him to concede a Godless universe.

(on a side note, he said that any proof of God would
invalidate Faith, which is a cornerstone (conveniently
IMO) of most creationist religions)

(eerie silence of disbelief)

What, none of you others are joining me in the worship of the Free Market? Godless Communist heathens! May your currencies collapse and economic stagnation rain down upon your house!

Um, whoops. I'm gonna get modded down as troll, aren't I?

-----
IANASRP- I am not a self-referential phrase
-----

Remember, Utah is a staunchly conservative state, possibly the most in the Union.

This is probably why he is making the statements he is.
Record Companies == rock and roll == California == long-haired, godless hippies == "everything that's wrong with this country, and why aincha doin' sumtin about it".
While I happen to agree with him on this issue, I don't necessarily think this is a "pro-freedom" stand as much as it is an "anti-liberal record executives" stand.

On the other hand the enemy of my enemy may be my friend (for a while a least...)

unless your American apparently... in which case China's actions are the result of being evil godless commies, where Kent State was an accident, fluke or justified.

almost certainly China or Russia

Dont forget those wily Peruvians. They dress funny. They dont wear any deodorant. And they only have ONE! McDonalds!!!, even that is only there for the US Military base.... lets not forget about them... next thing you know they will be Godless Commies(TM)

Its too bad that war is the extension of politics, but its the truth. If you want to see war go away, first change human nature, then you'll be able to affect the necessary changes in the political arena to make it a non-viable extension of politics.

There are no evil countries, but there are evil people. No one seriously thinks the Germans are evil, genocidal people. But face facts, the Nazi Party rose to power and killed a lot of people. The Russians weren't evil but Stalin's Purges killed a whole lot more people. Countries aren't evil but people sure are.

This isn't about "my country is on the side of God and yours is a haven of godless commie scum". This is about people that see a way to create a future for their families and more importantly, their regimes. If the fathers of the nation, its leaders and those with the power, decide that its the only way to ensure that they can keep their phoney-baloney jobs (to quote Mel Brooks) then its what they'll do, and you're kidding yourself if quoting Ginsberg will stop it.

SEATTLE--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Jan. 29, 2001-- Global software leader Microsoft (Nasdaq:MSFT - news) today announced plans to offer "Wine" Linux SuperOffice® systems -- highly-robust versions of their current desktop productivity software that combine blazing problem-solving speed with increasingly popular data stability, attractive price-performance and the popular Linux operating system.

The product line will be formally launched in coming months and is scheduled to begin shipping in the mid-2001 timeframe. The company has received an early order agreement from ApplixWare and expects to announce multiple orders by the time of the product launch. Financial terms were not none of your damn business.

``The Microsoft SuperOffice Series targets the need for clusters with higher capability than those available in the market today,'' said Microsoft Chairman and CEO Steve Ballmer. ``Organizations around the world have told us they want the advanced capabilities of our Office productivity suite to be re-architected using leading COTS (commercial off-the-shelf) Windows Emulation technologies. This is an attractive revenue growth opportunity for us.'' The Microsoft P2C2E(TM) (Process Too Complicated To Explain) system holds the world record for sustained computer reliability and was named 2000 ``Super Duper Computer Product of the Year'' by someone or other.

``Starting in mid-2001 and continuing over the next two years, we plan to phase in unrivaled capabilities that enable customers in academia, government and industry to advance the boundaries of marketing and management while better managing their large, tedious workloads,'' said Willy Gates, software architect for the Microsoft SuperOffice series. ``We will combine Microsoft's Innovative (make sure you get that word -- innovative -- that's very important -- EYE ENN ENN OH VEE AY TEE EYE VEE EE) Windows-oriented architecture, proven Unicode client operating environment and advanced system software with Wine, the latest Windows-on-Windows emulation technology from those bastard godless open source poopieheads, and the highly scalable Gbberish.NET client-interconnect network from VapoCom''

Gates said targeted capabilities include:

• Superior sustained performance on Win32 based Intel computing environments working on various problem sizes and workloads, made possible by marrying the high-availability Microsoft SuperOffice architecture with our current Intel based clients -- based on the world's most commonly available 32-bit processor -- and API's ``network aware'' Windows facility.
• Superior workplace capabilities, including high availability (cold starts, lukewarm performance, warm feelings, and hot tempers); global checkpoint/restart (in the event of a system interrupt, deletes all users' work and abruptly ends jobs, forcing an angry recovery); global resource mis-management; secure socket layer based network security coming Real Soon Now to even the lowliest customer sizes (thousands of processors); more or less efficient job scheduling (ok not really but who's gonna notice?), low prioritization, creative accounting, and some other gibberish that this reporter stopped writing down because he knew you would have stopped reading by now.

> Why the hell should I pay their abortions? I am not scared of their babies!

Take the good with the bad. I've pioneered a new cure for cancer that the FDA won't approve for some reason: cutting the heads off of cancer patients sure solves their cancer problem, but it causes a rash of new ones.
If you think the decision (if it's true...) to withold funding from other nations' healthcare is based on anything other than a moral "mandate", you're deluding yourself. I don't give a fuck if I disagree with the morals of another country. I'd sure as shit rather see them do all sorts of GODLESS things and have healthy babies than watch the piles of the dead mount. That our own country could use the extra health aid as badly as others whether or not anyone else wants to admit it or not is besides the point; it's nice to see some money actually helping people other than giant corporations.
Or am I missing something here? Can you can come up with a plausible reason (other than enforcement of personal beliefs on others) why the "less government"'s head is wasting more of my tax money re-researching RU-486 when the FDA's studies as well as decades of use in Europe has already shown its initial findings to be on the money? (cprm doesn't outlaw copyright, but it sure does seem to infringe on my rights...)
Anti-abortion, pro-execution.
God I love you, Bush.

Yes, those dastardly Lenninists are at it again!

In their most fiendish and heart-chilling conspiracy ever they are targetting the free worlds most valuable intellectual resource! First they created a godless empire ranging across europe and asia. Then they sent their agents to infiltrate america. Then they tried to corrupt the youth of the free world with their underground beatniks and seducing the young into the sloth of hippydom with drugs and satanic music. Then they tricked us all by pretending to dismantle their empire, lulling us all into a false sense of security.

Don't be fooled by marxist plots! They are still hard at work, and they have infiltrated into the most valuable resource of the information age - they are corrupting our programmers!

They have put their best agents into key positions in the programming world, and unleashed the most mostrously conceived pinko commie plot since the flurodation of water!

Boris and Natash say: "Java and C++ vill destroy the evil capitalist pig-dogs".

B: "Gorsh Rocky, what can we do? Boris and Natasha are running amok!"

R: "I don't know Bullwinkle - but we must warn the honest IT managers of America to reject OOP"

B: "Hey Rocky, watch me pull Fortran out of my hat!"

R: "But that trick never works!"

B: "This time for sure. Presto!"

Your assertion that sexual relations are not damaging to children is simply denial.
The APA says "No responsible mental health organization, including the American Psychological Association, endorses pedophilia or denies its negative effects on children. Any statement that suggests otherwise is a serious distortion of the truth. The American Psychiatric Association writes: 'An adult who engages in sexual activity with a child is performing a criminal and immoral act which never can be considered normal or socially acceptable behavior.' "

Children are not simply little adults. They are cognitively and developmentally different from adults. Sexual activity involves us in the most profound physical, intellectual, and emotional risk possible. There is little in human life which is more tender and delicate than our sexual identity, perfomance, and pleasure.

To expose children to that while they are yet incapable of understanding the implications is phenominally damaging to them. Anyone who says otherwise is indescribably wrong.

I have read about, and in fact know, a large number of people who were sexually involved as children. The stories they tell about the damage inflicted on them by selfish adults who used them for sexual pleasure is a demonstration of the worst kind of evil. These adults struggle with worth and identity decades later. Their lives are colored by shame, inadequacy, rage, fear, and confusion.

They are trapped in a bondage of powerlessness, betrayal, and ambivalence.

You say that you do not involve yourself with actual children. That is a good thing. However, I submit to you that you are unlikely to be able to continue in this way. Things that we entertain in our brains become actions. These activities which you fantasize about will eventually fail to bring you the pleasure that you are currently experiencing. You know that this is true, because even today it takes far more to arouse you than it did even a year ago. This is the nature of sexual perversion.

We take no action without previously having thoughts about it. Your fantasies will eventually become actions of one sort or another.

Lust is always demanding, and never satisfied.

You assert that you did not choose your sexual orientation. I will not challenge that. I don't think that science has advanced sufficiently to determine the root cause of our sexual desires. Regardless, sexual relations with someone who is not your spouse is not acceptable. Sexual activity with children is loathsome and damaging to you and to children. A good reference on the damage caused to these children is called "The Wounded Heart" and can be found here:

Romans 1:18-24 says:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another."

I strongly urge you to get the help that you need before it is too late.

God loves you and wants relationship with you.

If you would like to know how you can avoid God's wrath, please contact me at tom_cooper at bigfoot dot com