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Sun, Motorola Want Radio Tags In All Consumer Goods
NortonDC writes: "Now we know why Sun's Scott McNealy tells people to 'Get over it,' namely that his company is in the forefront of an effort to assault any hope of buying and using anything with privacy.
This article from an MIT publication documents the collaborative effort by Sun, Motorola and others to tag all consumer items with transmitting radio tags that uniquely identify each individual item with a 96-bit ID, for less than a penny each." In fairness, there are a lot of fine and legitimate uses that I would have no problem seeing these used for, but the possibilities for tracking you closer than you'd like are obvious.
Moreover, there's the issue of not billing you again at your next visit to the store for items that are already payed for (clothes you wear, that half empty pack of tissues in your pocket, ...).
These issues do not occur with UPC codes, because those are scanned individually, rather than putting the whole shopping cart through the scanner.
Say no to software patents.
Do you have a new car equipped with an immobilizer security setup? If so, open up the head of your key, I think you'll find a little RF ID device inside of there. Granted, nobody should be reading your car key's RF ID other than your car, but I think it would be possible. In essence, you are already tagged!!
Prevents smuggling, shrinkage, and subscriber theft, right(ck the EULA).
/Distribution info for the Corps.
Take a quarter sized watch battery toss on a small RF emitter circuit and a little adhesive.
The act of firmly placing the jammer on a scanner activates the power and the jammer works for about 20 minutes. That is long enough to unload that trailer full of PentiumX chips or sneak a shelf full of warez out of the local corporate mechandising centre. And the cost? Mere pennies as compared to the cent for each package they protected.
Of course they really want to put the scanner in your cable box at home and scan the goods you bring home. And as long as Geeks keep making the countermeasures available , Joe LameAss Grifter will be just smart enough to use them in his thefts.
Net Gain - some Marketing
Reality is just a clever Hack, and the Planck constant is the refresh rate.
Right, but I *want* to burn out the tag. If the store wants to verify a return item, they are going to have to do it the old fasioned way, by having a human read off the serial number. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear: I insist that RFID tags be burned out on anything I buy. If stores won't do it for me, I will do it myself.
Please, no. Superman would be driven from the earth. Remember his super-sensitive hearing?
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Twivel
this isnt really anything new.. supermarkets have been after doing this kind of thing for years.. imagine it.. no more queing up stareing at the checkout girls breasts :/ instead just push yer trolley through a scanner and itll pick up all of the barcodes..
well.. this idea clearly has its pros and cons :)
The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
They'll b rendered useless and unreponsive to the radar devices with a simple swipe of a pocket knife down the centre cutting one of the circuits.
Sooner or later, someone will find a way to query these tags at a distance, or listen at a distance as another reader closer to these tags queries them. I would assume that such attacks would be similar to the so-called "tempest" attacks we talk about being conducted against computers.
A PBS special (I believe as part of Nova) showed a espionage expert watching a user type on a keyboard in an office complex across the street. He claimed he could have been a quarter mile away and still receive that data. This gives a potential watcher plenty of distance; they could mount such a watching device in the cable junction box on your street.
I would assume that 96-bits of data would be sent at a reasonably slow rate for accuracy, although likely slightly faster than that of a keyboard. Given that fact, I don't see how these devices would avoid remote detection against a determined party. While we may not have to worry about big brother or big business doing this to everyone, I worry that many private investigators likely will jump at the chance. "Wonder what your spouse is doing? Wonder no more..."
Granted, these could have some good uses as well. Combining existing at-the-door alarm systems with a database of which items were recently sold, and many thieves would just give up. But a permanent way to deactivate these tags after sale must be provided. The tag likely doesn't keep track of who has queried it.
In response to your comments, there is a bit about how Prescott Bush made the family fortune. For example, there is this:
Note the connection to a major German company, not a sin in its' day, but in the larger context it presents a possible problem.In that context, some folks can't get out of the thinking of like Father, like son.
That being said, there were a large number of companies that tried to play boths sides for profit. The most recent news story on this had to do with IBM, but there are plenty of others that would like to string up some of the Rockerfellers for treason, etc. (for example)
Mind you I am generally not a conspiracy theorist. but these guys keep coming up with so many little details that it is hard to track every thing down. And of course, if certain folks were that bad, then they would be busy all of the time, doing things.
I am starting to think that fascism wears the face of a bean counter, and is generally otherwise apolitical (ie, not democratic or republican)
I am sure that you can bring up the infamous dead friends of Clinton list, now rather incredibly long.
As I said, the main point here not being about Bush or Clinton, but the over all trend of things keeps turning on the little red warning lights in the back of the skull
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
You tell enough people why they should worry about tagged devices, they'll care !
There's little enough privacy in the modern world already.
They'll be tagging the entire population soon from birth - zing - in goes a little chip - your tagged baby, but it's for your own security, honest !
A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
Here's a nice scenario: Thief wanders down the street and decides he need a Sony DS9 VCR. Pulls out his handy radar transmitter and thinks to himself - hey look like there's a DC9 VCR at house number 3, 10 and 12b. I think I steal the VCR from 12b. Now that he has the VCR, he can tear off the radio tag to prevent anyone using a similar technique to trace it back to him.
Guess this will probably end up being another device that provides very little benefit compared to the loss of privacy endured by consumers.
If this marketer's dream came true, then there would be some serious privacy concerns. But if you listen to anybody who says "In the future, we'll all have [insert technology here]," we were all supposed to have intelligent fridges buying stuff for us 5 years ago. Right now, my fridge just keeps stuff cold, and that's the way I likes it.
Bugrit! Millenium hand and shrimp!
Say Joe Bumpkin has one of these radio tagged devices and Sun and Motorola use this to track his every move. So they learn that he goes to the store once a week, goes to his friends houses every so often, etc. How can they use this? Can they say, "Aha! He shops at Walmart! We can use this data to corner the market and rule the world!" I doubt it. The fact is that the places 99.9% of all people go are too mundane to be of use. But let's say that once a week Joe Bumpkin goes to a brothel. Do you really expect Sun and Motorola to take pictures of him entering using a spy satellite and blackmailing him?
Corporations generally aren't interested in data on specific people (mail and e-mail advertizing are an exception to this), they are interested in the broad patterns. If they do collect track individual people it's to add their data to a big database so they can analyze it and find the general patterns. If they track lots of people and find that lots of people go to Wal-mart they don't learn anything that they couldn't have found out with less difficulty.
Also there are far too many people to track individually. I suppose you could say, what if the stuff needed to track me falls into the clutches of one of my mortal enemies? Think reallistically. What are the odds of that? How many people actually have mortal enemies who are a constant threat to them? What are your mortal enemies going to do with the knowledge of whether or not you go to Wal-mart?
I think that this news is a good thing. It may be a first step toward a sort of 'one device, one IP' scheme.
"Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto"
(I am a man: nothing human is alien to me)
My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
The tags contain nothing but an id (not stricktly true but hey), they mean nothing untill linked to a backaend database, which can then be used for tracking. Unfortunately this already happens, just not with the tags. Companies are already using snipits of information about each purchase (credit card number, name & address for warenty info) to build up profiles of individuals.
The tags won't do anything new, just make it easier for people that already track us to identify A PIECE OF EQUIPMENT. not a person.
RFID tags are only really usefull until the item is sold (for tracking batches from production to sale), the read distance is only short (I think the current max is 3 meters) and so cannot realisticaly be read once the item has left the shop. So what ties that item to an idividual? nothing we're not already giving them. Only if a name or bank number or other peice of info which uniquly identifies the person is given over as anyone got any chance of tracking YOU.
Simple solution - never give your name or bank details out (!?!) then no one can link the purchase to you, whether the tags are used or not.
I don't believe there has been any suggestion of using these tags as bank cards etc.
DaveB
btw, they can do other things than just store a number, some can be reprogramable, and it is perfectly feasable to have limited processing onboard too. Perhaps to allow traffic to be incrypted?
This is great!
Now when I lose my TV remote control (often), I can go look up its location on the web!
[soapbox]
;-)).
;-). Ethical free market economy is the way to go, anyways.
The end of capitalism wouldn't be so bad.
A lot of people confuse the free market (which is good) with capitalism (which is bad). (Ok, obviously those are subjective terms but... meh
Capitalists try to tag your goods to track your every move. Capitalists try to remove personal ownership through baroque licencing agreements, terms of use, leasing, renting, blahlblahblah. Capitalists have little concept of the results of their actions beyond the impulsive thrill of dollar signs.
So, yeah, the end of capitalism wouldn't be so awful. And if it were to end in such a way, the irony would be well worth it
[/soapbox]
Life after capitalism? The participatory economics project
Will we have any rights left in ten years? Jesus...
Synchronized cocks!
can you imagine a Beowulf of these things, radio interference or what?
We're talking about a truck-sized unit, but law enforcement might find this useful. Just drive around and inventory everybody's stuff. Correlate with income tax info, and find everybody with more stuff than they can afford.
My library has an anti-theft system, it goes off EVERY day, ALL day. The librarian has told me that belt buvkles, pins, keys, etc set it off. It often acts more like a metal detector that an anti-theft device. So, it's ignored, if I wanted too, I could put a book in my pocket, set off the alarm, and get waved through it's so bad! Maybe these chips could fix the problem....
What if I take it apart, and swap tags out with another item? Or even *remove them entirely* ohmygosh! :)
--TheOrangeSquid Is it any wonder things seem so awry? We swim in a sea of confusion and don't have to think to survive
erm, heh. cartoons are silly. i make bombs. i don't watch cartoons, you choad. heh. don't make me root your box after i'm finished rooting slashdot and attrition and palaphyre. heh.
heh. you phear what you don't understand. i'm eleet. heh. =]
Ummm...until they get ripped off of the pole you can have a reader in the pole.
I see this causing the same sort of problems that the Pentium III chip had when it came out.
Likely, it will cause the same sort of solution: consumers will probably gain the ability to disable the tag. At least, that's what I hope will happen.
Just keep in mind, giving products unique IDs is something which has happened all the time in the past. Intel did it. Microsoft did it. Don't be surprised. On the other hand, these companies tend to not be able to get away with these ids once the public notices. I hope the same thing happens with these tags as with the others. If not, that would be the surprise.
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"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller
The Assayer - free-information book reviews
Find free books.
babies and small children...damn things keep wandering off when I'm in the middle of a game of Quake. And does she get mad at them? Oh, no! For some strange reason she acts like it's my fault...
d0ud, cartoons are gay heh. watch richard simmons instead. he rules heh. i like to watch while wearing my richard simmons signature series shorts and matching headband. heh. i rule.
i'm too skilled for a sig. heh.
Mitsubisi. Perhaps one of their cars. Then I'll park my car in the kitchen. They'll have a hard time trying to figure that one out.
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I'm just an ordinary man with nothing to lose.
Um©© hate to break it to ya, but product ID's have been used by just about every manufacturer for a long time© Called serial numbers© The difference with Intel was that it was no longer just printed on the board for human reference, but accessble by the big evil corporations and hackers behind the internet©
The big difference is the accessability of the serial numbers. It's hard to stay in business if you frisk your customers as they enter and record the serial numbers of any items they have on them. It's easy if it's done unobtrusively by a scanner embedeed in the doorway.
I wound not at all be suprised if various devices out there (such as a P III) already have this sort of technology in them.
/something/ enamations (reading the electromagnetic enamation off a computer), and having a machine that can recreate a persons computer in realtime.
Given that cpu core designs are highly gaurded secrets, and certain govermental bodies would like to be able to snoop everybody, industry giants may be forced to include such devices in their computer related equipment.
This leads to identification of any user and their activity. It might go hand in hand with stuff like....
Open IP hardware projects are important for a full realization of computer security.
Go opencores ! http://www.opencores.org/
If he was really smart, he'd make these chips run embedded linux and apache, an give 'em an IPv6 address too.
In practice, though, they're unique for consumer-channel NICs; the manufacturers want their cards to be "plug & play", which means that they assign each card a MAC address from a pre-allocated block that was granted to them by a central coordination authority. Anything else would result in hard-to-diagnose (for the layman) problems, complaints, a reputation for producing bad NICs, and eventual failure of the company as people avoided their "flaky" product.
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
This headline is flamebait. Anyone who reads about this technology knows that the radio tags are so small that they can only transmit a few inches. Basically the idea is to give the ability to bar-code something without having to locate the actual tag with the code on it. No fumbling around at the cash register, trying to get the product oriented just right so the device can read the code.
Think again! You buy a pair of pants with your credit card. They know who you are, and the unique ID of your pants. A few days later, wearing your new pants, you buy a computer and leave the store. The scanner sees that a person wearing your pants and shirt bought a computer using your credit card. It's a good chance it's you.
Later, somebody wearing your pants, and your shirt walked through the scanner of a book store and bought book X. Several days later, someone wearing Fred's pants, and Fred's shirt, Fred's shoes, and Fred's tie walked through a scanner at the mall carrying book X that you bought. Most likely, you and Fred are friends. The more times Fred's clothes go through a scanner along with an item that has also gone through a scanner with your clothes, the more certain they are that you and Fred are friends.
Given enough data over a long enough timeframe, marketers will have information that they rarely get today. That is, a decently accurate map of who you associate with and what your relationship to that person is, where you shop, when you shop, what you buy, how much you pay, etc., etc. All of that from a series of data points gotten when you passed within a meter or so of the anti-theft pillars that are nearly ubiquitous in retail stores.
You will still be able to anonymize yourself by burning out all of the tags, but you may find that you can never return defective merchandise that way. You can buy enerything in cash, and never send in a registration card, but one little slipup and unknown person 12873645 who they know everything else about (or at least have damned good guesses about) becomes JediTrainer who frequents /. (They know that because you slipped up back in '05 and let an ecommerce web site have your real shipping address. Guess you should have been more careful about the web bug on page three of the order form.)
To think that all of this is going to happen overnight is a paranoid fantasy. To think it will never happen is a fool's fantasy. Back in 1905, who would have ever imagined that a complete stranger in another state could know as much as you yourself know about your credit history?
First it was Intel with their procssers and now Sun, who next Microsoft? Oh wait I forgot Microsoft all ready has information on all Windows users. Heck they all ready know what you all those late nights on the internet. After all Big Brother IS watching you, just watch out for those guys in the black suits.
When you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to reform. --Mark Twain
heh, erm..heh.
..hp: heh. that's nifty.
heh. you phear what you don't understand. i'm eleet. heh. =]
That may be true in your case. It is not necessarily so for the 130,000,000 other people in the U.S. who also are shareholders. There is research available (see my other post on this topic for one data point) that indicates that attitudes and political beliefs are changing as the percentage of shareholders in society increases.
OpenSourcerers
I used to work for a company that sold these devices (not at $0.01 yet, but still cheap anyway). They work by first transmitting an AC signal that charges a small capacitor. The devices then uses the stored power in the capacitor to transmit a response to the request that was modulated onto the AC power signal. These devices are able to transmit up to a couple feet if they are in a large reader (like a reader that you walk through on your way into and out of work). All new IBM laptops actually already have a chip inside that, in conjuction with a doorway reader, and the right control software, can read your badge for work, and the ID of the computer, and determine if you are allowed to take the computer through the door. If not, it flips a bit in the chip, and the computer won't boot! Great way to keep a computer from being "borrowed" from the work place. These tags might be slightly different, and the fact that they are claiming a 1cm range makes me think that the whole device including the antennae is done on chip, as opposed to the large coil antennas that the IBM solution uses. The basic radio protocols, etc. are likely the same though (HID developed it, ISO standardized it). Robert
Centralized control causes coruption, inefficency, stupidity, etc. regardless of political philiosophy (capitalism or communism), but I also agree that companies should not have only their share holders interests at stake (at least when they are companies which produce externalities).
Personally, I have my own political philosophy: Libertarian Socialism. The key idea is to remove all limits on liability, i.e. if you owned stock in a company 50 years ago when they did something bad then you _personally_ can be sued. The eviroment and workers would be protected with big ass civil law suit and/or fines after the fact, i.e. if your company causes the extinction of a spieces of butterfly then society cgarges your company at least one billion dollars (more for scientific and ecological importance) because we have lost a valuble information & ecological resource. If the company is only worth 1 million dollars then this debt will be passed on to the stock holders (who may lose their houses). Anyway, the moral of the story is "do not invest in a company which is likely to do risky things."
Now, this will make many buisnesses impossible (like manufactoring, mining, and power plant), so society will offer these buisnesses the limited liability in exchange for about 50% public control of the company. It's just a fair trade betyween society and the stock holders, 50% control for liability protection. Clearly, these company can still be sued or fined, but the stock holders will no longer be liabile for more then their ownership.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
There are some problems that even the best technology can't solve.
"It is better to die for an idea that will live than to live for an idea that will die" - Steve Biko
Welcome to the HIVE. I personally can't wait for all of my transmissions to be tagged internationally... WHERE CAN I SIGN UP? Please, make it cost pennies to track thousands of people internationally. Now I know someone is going to say, "then don't buy it." But what happens when say, EVERYTHING TECHNICAL HAS THIS ON IT. THERE IS BUT ONE SINGLE USE FOR THIS TECHNOLOGY. It is an affrontery to personal property... saying "WE STILL OWN THIS. IT AIN'T YERS." Everyone says its no big deal... just an inventory tag. Yeah, well a mattress that says "DO NOT REMOVE" is not a personal communication device. Just wait, cause in an important meeting, or the birth of your first child, or a moment of crisis, the phone WILL ring to sell you a tie-in promotion to the show you watched last night, then you'll understand what they really meant. I can't wait until they really tweak this stuff out.
any chance anyone had buildt anything like this?
Fight censors!
"Not my manner of thinking but the manner of thinking of others has been the source of my unhappiness." - M
They need only be unique on a single subnet. If you take a look at a sun with multiple nic's, they all have the same mac address, which is derived from the machine's hostid. Similarly, as the other poster already mentioned, almost all nic's have software reprogrammable mac addresses.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
--Mike--
That is actually a valid point. However, I don't believe you can lump it into the seach & seizure group just yet.
I believe that Slashdot (ie: the editors) is falling more and more towards the yellow shade of journalism every month. Their news post made it sound as if, in a few years, the FBI can just drive past your house and automatically get an inventory of everything you own through radio tags. This is *so* far from fact that it's not even funny. The article specifically says that the ideal application for these tags would be for tracking retails goods. Right now, the tag reader has to be less than 1cm away from the tag in order to register anything.
I'm not an expert, of course, but I just don't see them suddenly increasing range to 50m over the course of a few years. Don't get me wrong, I'm a privacy advocate just as much as the next slashdotter, but I think it's funny how Slashdot can post subjective news like this and then have the balls to call 2600 fans "paranoia zealots."
Couldn't these tranmitters be used as a new form of ID. So many of the comments I have read have stressed that these have a limited range and might have a practical application in inventory or shopping(cashierless stores). But couldn't these transmitters be implanted in to a person and used in place of a photo ID. It would probably be much harder to fake and could make the jobs of the police and coroners much easier. For a traffic stop you could just hold out your left hand to be scaned in place of handing over your ID. With the scan the cop could pull up you records look for outstanding fines or current warrents and it might make the process much simpler. The same could be done with your car for insurance. The cop could scan the trnsmitter and checks your insurance. Or for those unfortunate situations when someone is killed or dies and is unidentifiable at first becase there is no ID on the body. Well if we used the transmitters they could scan it and have an ID in no time. Same with other things. The transmitters could be used in other ways for shopping as well. You go to a restraunt and instead of handing your card over at the end of the meal you get you transmitter scaned and the information that is brought up would contain your credit card numbers. Only thing is this would make stealing your card numbers much harder because the waiter or cashier would never have to see it. The actual transaction could all be handled on computers. This could completely eliminate the need for cash to. Get scaned and the money could be directly transfered to the store's acount. So basically these transmitters could be used to spy on you and keep track of you but they could also make life much easier.
UTUCDamon: The only sure thing in the future is uncertainty.
I agree with you, but you say that you dont need broadcast, you have the choice.
Granted its if you want it up or not, but its still your choice. I think that a personal EMP pulse machine (anyone?!?) would be a great way to protect our (your) way of life.
I still have that adobe badge to trade with you.
Sorry I didnt make it to lunch.
Another time? I will be in europe in may, want to eat at a cafe in europe?
Or Sf?
That yellowdowg linux guy was wrong about the g4 power book wasnt he? (funny, he lectured me for 20 min about how it wasnt possible to boot current linuxppc on it...)
Fight censors!
"Not my manner of thinking but the manner of thinking of others has been the source of my unhappiness." - M
"But... but... then the Man would know what I bought!" He already does. Database A (books sold to CC#) JOIN to Database B (CC# to customer information), SELECT as needed.
The Man may know what you bought, but he doesn't know that it was you if you pay cash. People who use a card to buy everything deserve the loss of privacy that they get.
And this scenario is worse than just stashing the item in your pocket now?
The second amendment has been null and void since 1933 at the latest. Or maybe you can go down to the hardware store and pick up a Thompson submachine gun and a crate of dynamite and a box of blasting caps with no interference where you live?
Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
People say that with the limited range, this isn't going to be a problem. But the range is going to get bigger; there is no technical reason why it shouldn't.
This isn't true. There are plenty of technical reasons why it can't. RF ID tags don't even have a power supply, they use current unduced in an internal coil in order to power their processor and transmitter. This means that they can transmit with only a tiny fraction of the power that is aimed at them.
Trying to induce a large enough current from, say, 10 feet away that the tag can transmit back that far means you have to generate fields strong enough to interfere with radios and TVs and stuff. Do it from much further than that and you have to worry about frying birds and small animals.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Every time I read an article like this one, with
privacy implications, I'm reminded of David Brin's
"The Transparent Society." In particular, he
suggested passing a law that if a company collects
information about people, then that information
about the top N officers of the company should be
made publicly available. You want to know what
I buy? Fine, tell me what you buy.
Having said this, one cool application for these
tags would be to find my own stuff. It'd be neat
to be able to home in on that misplaced Beatles CD
with a scanner, rather than look all over the
place by hand.
http://www.digitalangel.net/ Now this is a technology that is currently being used for human monitoring and has been successfully demonstrated. A unit smaller than a grain of rice complete with GPS reading to a local ground station. All this which can be planted within your skin is coming soon to a criminal, alzheimers patient, son or daughter of a wealthy family near you....
Why do they need 96bit ids, when id number will 666?
Seriously, a range of 5m is kind of boring for a
conspiracy theorist...
signatures pending - ansa@kos.to - (dont mail there)
Call me old fashioned, a Luddite, whatever, but, if there are things that have built-in radio transmitters that could track me wherever I (or really, it) is, I wouldn't buy it or use it. (Assuming I knew it had it, of course.)
I like my privacy. I like my anonymity. Yes, I don't have it to a degree -- I run a personal diary-type web site -- but there are certain things that I don't need broadcast.
Back when I got hit by that drunk back in March 2000, the only reason my wife couldn't find me was because I wasn't able to answer the phone at home. Let's say I had one of these devices that would reveal my approximate location.
what would it mean, knowing that I was still technically in Savannah, Georgia, but... how could it say where specifically? The coordinate given was not my house. It could be anywhere. What use is that?
Even so, I don't want it. Scott McNealy may unfortunately be right, but there's a lot that we can do to protect ourselves and our privacy. I'm actively doing that.
Haaz: Co-founder, LinuxPPC Inc., making Linux for PowerPC since 1996.
-- haaz.
Damn that was funny. A sub-critical length inside each of his pens so that it took 2-3 pens in his pocket before the detector went off. Now how long do you think it was before he dis-assembled his pens??
X.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
If the public are educated and informed of this invasion of privacy, then product sales will take a dive.
Bahahahaha. +5 funny!
The only place you'll see people who will get paranoid over this sort of thing is slashdot. No one else cares.
-- Dr. Eldarion --
...Steve Halliday, vice president of technology at AIM, a trade association for manufacturers of tagging technology, says, "If I talk to companies and ask them if they want to replace the bar code with these tags, the answer can't be anything but yes. It's like giving them the opportunity to rule the world."...
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wow. enough said.
Ok, here's the real deal in 2010:
YOU: "Hey Vanguard, what's up with that strange necklace?"
ME: "oh, that's just a personal jammer with a 10 meter radius..."
brave new world's...we're the one's who will need the courage...
"I think, therefore I get paid."
Yep, you're wrong. Because the U.S.A. isn't "great."
Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
-- flossie
http telnet
flossie
Write now. Defend liberty
Their objections to (landline) telephones is quite reasonable: they cannot dig a device that distracts the attention from an actual visitor in order to give attention (talk) to someone who is too lazy to show up in person . In other words, it's impolite to cut one's in person conversation to answer the phone. I don't have a problem with that at all; personally, I just hate it having to wait for someone to finish a phone call before talking to me; if I took the trouble to go all the way to see you, it's kinda important, no? And likewise, whenever I call someone, I can perfectly well understand that he can't answer me at once; the first thing I ask is "Am I disturbing you?".
Interestingly, the Amish didn't have deep objections to fax machines; they simply put the fax in a shed away from the house, they go check it a few times a day, when they'll be sure it won't interfere with any conversation.
Likewise, they dig cellphones because they can be answered when one is out (litterally) in the field...
Interestingly, the first cellphone operator who got a hint of that made a killing amongst the Amish, simply by having a contract that didh't require a credit card (another thing Amish ain't too fond of).
--
"Painting the antenna over an entire box extends the range to about 60 centimeters, but this won't help much on something as small as a can of tuna fish."
Why not use the tin can itself as the antenna?
Naaaah, forget is, 'cause when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail...
--
These are passive devices that require an excitation signal from a reader or scanner in order to send the ID. This technology has been in use for years for the purpose of building custom devices in an automated assembly process. The device under assembly carries a passive rf tag, and when it comes to a station, a reader gets the ID, looks it up in a database, and runs a robotic program, tells the worker what to do, etc. The goal of this technology is to get the tags cheap enough so the tag is on the device, not the pallet that carries it. Information about the custom device stays with the device, for the purpose of multiple assembly plants, quality tracking, and service. Chances the engine in your car already has a similar passive tag built in.
Is that an invasion of your privacy? These devices need to have a very limited range in order to perform thier task in an assembly environment.
The article starts out talking about tracking theft of root beer bottles. Reading past the 1st paragraph reveals that the range of Motorola's tag is limited to slightly more than a centimeter. A&W will need to invest in a lot of rf receivers to find out who has its root beer. To say that we will be tracked using this tech is the equivalent to saying that we are already being tracked by spy satellites that read bar codes. (scans the sky for black helicopters)
WHBT, WHL, HAND
MotoMannequin
MotoMannequin
"With all appliances, and means to boot!" - William Shakespeare
Amish "rejection" of technology is not blindly stupid luddism; they have quite valid reasons for it.
I certainly don't consider the Amish to be stupid, blind, or anything else. I simply note that they do, in fact, have cellphones now. I do feel that they take an extreme viewpoint on technology that is clearly different form mine. However, I respect their convictions.
I simply note that the lifestyle altering technologies in the world today are SO pervasive that even the most steadfast (and the Amish are certainly steadfast!) are changing with the times.
As fo their views on landlines, it only takes 2 or 3 telemarketers in a day (or any calls when I'm trying to eat after coming home late from work) to get me to consider that the Amish may be right on that one.
But back to the original topic, the list is back down to just the homeless.
Perhaps now the bleeding hearts that make up /. community will wake up and
so much of the
smell the coffee - Clinton/Gore oversaw the
largest erosion of personal privacy ever. The
so called 'champions of the people' did nothing
more than bring Orwell a very large leap closer
to reality, thru action and inaction.
Your privacy was tossed out by executive orders
and sponsored legislation, not to mention the
wink of the eye to companies like Sun. Reminds
me.. isn't Sun about to cut a big check to Clinton
to speak? Maybe somebody from the audience will
have the balls to standup and interrupt Scott and
Bills great adventure to ask about this. But I
think they will be way to busy fawning over them.
Maybe now those of you who don't care about
politics will get a clue and write your reps and
senators about these (and other) things. But
since many of you probably have no idea who your
elected representatives are, let alone how to
contact them...
House of Reps.
Senate
It's not that hard to design a protocol to count identical devices, which sharing one signal. Each device just keeps trying to send without a colission, with exponentially increasing delays after a failed transmission.
Drag n' Drop DVD Recommendations
So next, they are used on Internet purchased items. The Home Grocer truck scans the home they are deliverring to and sells the inventory to it's allies that sell competing products for increased marketting accuracy.
Add a camera to a street corner scanner, or parking lot exit, and tie the data to a license plate. Instant customized billboards on highways.
Why don't I just stick a broadcast antenna in my shorts that lists all my choices to the world.
Database A is in the possession of the merchant. Database B is in the possession of the credit card company.
I'm not sure if the credit card company receives much more than the amount, date, merchant identification, and the credit card #. Lots of smaller stores just have credit card/debit card terminal that they just swipe the card and enter a total amount - only enough for the credit card company to know where, when, and how much, but not exactly what.
This is why lots of stores have introduced "loyalty" programs of some sort, each with a membership card or number. They give you some small perks (discounts on some products, reward points for total spending, etc), in exchange for tracking your spending habits at their stores.
In Canada, AirMiles (nothing to do with any airlines frequent flier program) does this for a group of merchants (including The Bay/Zellers and Shell). In this case, the merchants get an even better picture of these consumers... Unless you do what my mother and sister do: my mother uses my sister's AirMiles number to help her build up points more quickly. Of course AirMiles just ends up with the spending habits of a person who can shop at two Safeways in two different timezones at the same time. I guess they could separate the info based on location, until one visits the other...
All your base... are belong to hive collective.
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what you say!
Wow! Where is this world? I want to live there too; I'm sick of Earth.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
It was _decentralized_ property ownership that made this country great, not centralized corperations. Centralized capitalism has the exact same problems as communism. Hell, just look at all the corperate welfare we have today. That's the great sucking sounds of centralization which killed the USSR.
Actually, many who would describe themsleves as Communists (myself included) would say that the USSR was an example of state-run capitalism, not Communism. The potential for even greater abuse when the entity controlling everything doesn't even have to pretend it's doing anything in anyones best interest, other than the shareholders, is seriously scary.
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Blaming GW Bush for the Iraq war is like blaming Ronald McDonald for the poor quality of food.
I read an article in Smithsonian Magazine last year that talked about the history of barcodes. You know, those identification bars on all products you buy.
Interesting enough, when barcodes started being used in the 70's there was a huge uproar over how the consumers would be treated. There were even fears of the being some government "big brother" thing. It was fascinating to look at throught the looking glass of time.
Relating this new technology to the old bar code, I see no problem with this given that as with the matress tag mentioned above, I can remove/destroy the transmitter after I purchase said item.
This brings a whole new meaning to Neighbourhood Watch! If the range ends up being a bit greater (10 metres say?) I can see crooks 'scanning' an area to see which are the best houses to rob. This makes casing a joint a lot easier - just fit a gps unit, a laptop and a tag scanner into a briefcase and go for a drive. This might be a new 'job' opportunity, is it illegal to sell information obtained in such a manner - after all no law was broken in acquiring it? Let's hope it would be covered by conspiracy but I think it would be hard to convice a jury.
My house looks like all the others in my street but I suspect has more high-tech electronics than the rest.
If this goes ahead how long before people start making Faraday cages out of their home - that would go nicely with the tin foil hats....
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I hereby inform you that I have NOT been required to provide any decryption keys.
If you carry a set of tags that respond to RF, you can bet that they will be used within a few years for tracking your every move through a store. You'll probably get incentives to carry special ones that are linked to your identity. If you don't, some services may not be available to you, and people will track you based on the random tags that came with your clothes anyway.
Of course, you will have the "right" not to use them, just like you can, in principle, make all your transactions in cash, not drive a car, and not have a telephone number. Well, actually, in the US, there are people who live that way: the homeless.
See, that's the problem with this kind of infrastructure: once society accepts it widely, you don't have a choice but to use it yourself.
Please stop being retarded, please stop being retarded. Passive RF tags are cool, I could find the TV remote anywhere in my house by pressing a button on a remote control. I could also walk out of a store without passing by a register (like the IBM commercial) with a couple goods in my pockets. To insist that we will be tracked in the future is a misleading concept. We ARE fucking tracked wherever we go. If I want to know where you went on vacation I pull up a TRW on you and find out when and where your transactions took place. Same if I want to know what you eat or how healthy your children are. Face it: you're a fucking number. So anyways RF ID tags have a very very very short range, I would be really hard pressed to track a tag from orbit even if I was a government body with trillions of dollars at my disposal. I don't see the point of people complaining, the jolt cola you're drinking whilst being a l33t haX0r has a UPC code on it which is scarely different from an RFID tag.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
It occured to me that if every chip in my computer were giving off an ID signal vea radio I'd never get my TV card or radio to pick up anything.
As it is my computer allready generates a larg amount of radio interfearence if each chip is purpousfully transmitting a signal I can not see that as helpping.
Also Sun Microsystems and Moderola are in the busness of making extreamly high speed CPUs.
I would think if Sun and Moderola had to design chips to handle an ID transmitter that would slow them down a bit. At the very least they'd have to make allounced for a transmitter being less than an inch away from the logic.
I don't actually exist.
Remember those tags on mattresses and furniture? Soon they'll be on everything, and they'll actually enforce them. This is scary.
Then how would it count how many were bought? Sure, ot could measure signal strength, but I presume that this would be affected by position too. Hard to distinguish two cartons far away from the sensor from a single one closeby.
If you read the article, you'd notice that, unlike bar codes, the plan with this thing is to assign a unique ID to every single transmitter; if you bought two packages of Oreos, they'd each have their own unique ID. Indeed, the scheme being talked about uses a 96-bit number--an 8-bit header, 24 bits for the manufacturer ID (that's enough for 16.7 million companies); 24 bits for the product ID (with up to 16.7 million products/manufacturer); and a 40-bit serial number (enough for over 1 trillion different packages of Oreos). That's plenty sufficient to track every single thing manufactured in the world for quite some time.
Given the differences in attitude between the US an EU regarding privacy etc I can't see this being legal in the EU after the first lawsuit in the European Court of Human Rights.
The implication being that it will have to be removed/not present for EU sales. That being so and the internet being global you 'merkins could import some of your goods from the EU to get non-tagged items.
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I hereby inform you that I have NOT been required to provide any decryption keys.
Do the doors make that little noise the ones in the original Star Trek did? Now that would be cool.
Nope. They just make a click.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Steve Halliday, vice president of technology at AIM, a trade association for manufacturers of tagging technology, says, "If I talk to companies and ask them if they want to replace the bar code with these tags, the answer can't be anything but yes. It's like giving them the opportunity to rule the world."
Ironic.
Every scanner is going to squirt a few hundred bytes (11 byte for the ID, how many for GPS, and so on) into the web for every product within an X meter sphere (who cares what X is?).
Some database, somewhere, gets to index it.
Some data warehouse gets to reduce it.
Some fabulous graphics get spashed up at planetary control, real time.
Who was it that was selling this technology? Sun?
Now, manufacturers have a duty of care to inform their customers about correct use and disposal of their product, but if manufacturers are being asked to be liable for the actions of their customers, it only makes sense that they should be able to exert some control over those customers, doesn't it?
It's not right, I know...
It may not take that much either, it may just take technology. What you thought was a standalone functional piece of hardware actually (tada, magic) morphs into a service that requires constant software updates to function properly and will deactivate if it doesn't have the newest software.
Actually, penny tags don't transmit at all. They are passively detected by the "scanner" device which emits a signal which resonates with the coils in the tags resulting in a slightly different frequency getting read back by the scanner (at a much lower power level obviously). These are very simple devices. The trick is being able to distinguish and read lots of signals at a modest range (10s of feet) given lots of different incidence angles and noise sources.
Kind of sounds like the sign of the beast to me. Think about it... they could track your underwear use. No thanks, Moro
All your base, are belong to us?
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what you say!
Isn't this what we're afraid of in the first place? It seems that the corporations want to own everything and only lease it to us poor comsumers. They want to own everything themselves and have us own nothing. Sound familiar?
Personally, this isn't the kind of America that I want to see. Ever.
O'Toole's Commentary on Murphy's Law:
Well, it's simple really, isn't it ?
This will create a market for products that aren't 'tagged'
If the public are educated and informed of this invasion of privacy, then product sales will take a dive.
I certainly won't be buying any Sony or Motorola products if they 'tag' them.
A slashdotting - you get the stick first and then the carrot !
Especially if they meet a price point such that it is economical to use the tags in a throw-away manner. Imagine being able to poll the contents of a warehouse/transit container/etc. in real time and without worrying about a guy missing something with his handheld inventory scanner.
Another cool use would be at the grocery store. Fill your cart with tagged items, when you walk out (no lines or cashiers) the scanner tallies the total and sends you an itemized bill at the end of the month or charges your debit/credit card. Or the book store (same idea). "But... but... then the Man would know what I bought!" He already does. Database A (books sold to CC#) JOIN to Database B (CC# to customer information), SELECT as needed. Note that all of that already exists except that a human and a POS system facilitate the transaction instead of radio waves.
Heck, if they're really cheap, combine them with microsensors for things like soil nitrogen content, soil moisture, etc. and some triangulating receiver stations for dumped-out-of-the-back-of-a-plane microagriculture monitering stations. Or if they're really light combine them with a streamer and some triangulating stations to measure air currents inside of a tornado/storm (combine with thermometer and or barometer for information from inside the storm). The whole unique-id-to-position thing could be extremely handy for field measurements of all types, particularly if it is effectively zero marginal cost to the instrument.
--
"Overrated" is "overfuckingused".
News for Geeks in Austin, TX
to tell us a story about her boyfriend?
You can get more information and SDKs on how to program them at http://www.ibutton.com/ibuttons/memory.html.
While I think the radio element does leave an element of traceability, I can see them having a use for service records, warranty and inventory tracking for businesses, say renting out handheld radios to field staff or phones or whatever.
-Pat
All your base are belong to, us?
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what you say!
Yes, or where the other sock went. That is truly one of the greatest mysteries of the twentieth century.
Greetings,
Raindeer
Use Adsense for Charity
All your © are belong to us!
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what you say!
All your Smart Card® are belong to us!
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what you say!
Is it possible that motorola already has these in their pager/cell phone products, does anyone know for sure?
People running by your house scanning what items you have? Just go buy a couple thousand of those tags (there only a penny right?) and program them to the id of a popular "vibrating muscle relaxant device".
Seriously, I mean, I suppose if it were in their facilities they would have the right to track it, but is it legal at all to track someone outside of your company's facilities, cept legal wiretaps, etc..? I don't really see any reason as to why a company would need this, in the way of it being mission-critical... Why? Why do you need this Sun? Makes you wonder even more. What happens when you take the product into a competitor's werehouse (spchek?)?
WHAT YOU SAY!!! Sorry to be lame, that's just one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time. here's a link for those who haven't seen it. Monochromism ============ http://www.monochromism.net - an experiment in moral degredation
People knowing that I went home doesn't bother me. However, consider all the places that currently have anti-theft scanners at their exits. Now imagine if said scanners were replaced with radio tag readers. Suddenly, people know that I walked past the scanner at the entrance of Store X at 4:34 pm, Store Y at 4:48 pm, and Store Z at 4:51 pm.
Of course the real paranoia doesn't kick in until you've got the data being collected at some central location. However, I'm reminded of the all-to-recent Slashdot story of faces being scanned at the Superbowl to check for known felons. Is it that far of a stretch to imagine that they might suddenly start scanning for any item purchased on the credit card of a person who is now wanted? Is it that far of a stretch to imagine the people scanning the database failing to pick up on the fact that the item was returned and is sitting on the shelf, waiting for another consumer to buy it?
"What is distinct about the US is that the US government's core documents explicitly list some of these rights, the US legal system explicitly claims that if a law attempts to deny them it is not actually a law but only the appearnce of one..."
"And just like here, if enough of you are willing to believe it and risk acting on it, you might make something similar the law of YOUR land. Or you might die trying.
What you say is incredibly presumptious, since in your text lies an implied assumption that the US holds the perfect or least flawed constitution. This is a perfectly valid opinion, but remember that it is only that -- an opinion.
What you describe is not particularly distinct at all. While not all western nations have constitutions that fulfill the criteria you listed, most do. Although the US constitution is interesting, its concept of granting certain perceived inalienable rights to citizens that lawmakers must abide by is not unique and nor does it take the rights concept most far in all respects. This is important to keep in mind.
Personally, I'm a fan of several constitutions. I love the Swedish and Finnish constitutions for setting out an unprecedented level of transparency through their far-ranging government document accessibility laws, I love the Swiss constitution for being the most democratic one with its direct democracy and citizen's rule laws, and I love the United States constitution for its explicit division of powers that grant power to the federal government (as opposed to state government) only in areas specifically listed.
What about digitally masterful theives? I don't want to allow some punk riding down the street to know exactly what I have in my house!.. If this were EVER to be made, then I'd be the first to push for a blocker technology that would stop anyone from ever being able to determine what I had. I'd make it into a keychain on top of that so that I'd be query-safe from anyone everywhere I went. Just a thought.
Aren't there passive RF id-tags available.
You can etch an antenna on a piezoelectric material to respond to a specific signal.
The signal will be received by the antenna and a surface wave (SAW) will spread along it, but because of the design of the antenna only the correct signal will amplify the wave enough.
The surface wave can then thrigger a "beep" in response if the ID was correct.
It is interesting to note that, of the people in the U.S., about half are shareholders and about half participate in presidential elections. Can anyone provide a citation about the intersection of these two sets?
OpenSourcerers
why don't we just stick radio tags under our skin? put a credit card number on the signal, and then they can justify all tracking. how fun!
By the time that message left your LAN, your NIC's MAC had been replaced by that of your router, and every router along the path to here. Big difference....
Think outside the... Hey, where'd the friggin' box go?
There is an interesting paper called The Rise of Worker Capitalism .
OpenSourcerers
One of the most obvious places to put these things is on currency. That will be the end of anonymous cash transactions. Security at the airport will know exactly how much cash you have in your pocket (because of metal detector scan) and they'll know the serial number of each bill. Muggers will figure out how to detect it at a distance too. It won't have to be illegal to remove the tags: removing it will just invalidate your money.
No disrespect to the US constitution, but it doesn't mean jack outside of the US
... more disturbingly, it seems like your constitution is only considered relevant when it doesn't affect corporations or the governments ability to violate your privacy, take away your rights, or basically screw you six ways from Sunday:(
No disrespect to people of other countries, but the Bill of Rights does mean quite a bit everywhere. Like the Declaration of Independence, it makes statements about global theories, as well as setting out local rules.
"Rights" are distinct from "privileges". "Rights" are something you have REGARDLESS of what your government claims. (It's just up to you to defend them against government ATTEMPTS to deny you the use of them.)
The Delaration of Independence makes the de-novo claim that such rights exist, lists a few of the ways the English government attempted to deny them to the Colonists, and declares that certain Colonies are now independent. The Bill of Rights contains a list of SOME of the rights that were considered particularly important, along with a binding prohibition on the US governments (federal and state) against even TRYING to deny them.
Now you don't have to believe that these Rights were given to you by "Nature" or "Nature's God". But the documents claim Rights are not the creation of governments, but are pre-existing (and that the proper function of government is to DEFEND them.) Thus they are claiming that YOU have Rights REGARDLESS of who you are or where you live. You can decide to beileve this, too, and start USING and DEFENDING those rights.
What is distinct about the US is that the US government's core documents explicitly list some of these rights, the US legal system explicitly claims that if a law attempts to deny them it is not actually a law but only the appearnce of one, which grants no power, creates no office, and need not be obeyed, and if an official tries to enforce such a law or otherwise acts to interfere with the exercise of these rights he's no longer acting as an official, but as a criminal individual.
HERE the Bill of Rights is part of the law of the land. THERE it's just an assertion. You can believe it and act on it if you feel like it. And just like here, if enough of you are willing to believe it and risk acting on it, you might make something similar the law of YOUR land.
Or you might die trying. "The Tree of Liberty must be watered, from time to time, with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants."
Of COURSE!
With respect to governments: They're always trying to get away with more than they're allowed. And the people have to slap them down. Usually they do it in court. Sometimes they do it in other ways. (Look at the writings of the Founders. That's what they expected. That's why the hamstrung the government with three branches and a "balance of power" - they were trying to make it easy to gridlock it whenever it tried to do something outside its proper bounds.)
With respect to corporations: That's because the Constitution puts limits on GOVERNMENTS in their dealings with INDIVIDUALS and groups of them. It does NOT place limits on the INDIVIDUALS and groups in their dealings with each other. Corporations are groups of individuals, so the constitution does NOT place limits on them - when they're not acting as part of the government.
But it DOES allow OTHER individuals and groups of them to defend themselves against COERCION by government, individuals, or groups. That includes coercion by corporations. It explicitly allows them to have the TOOLS to defend themselves. (That's why the Second Amendment came up.) And it allows the government to mediate such disputes, define limits on coercive behavior by them and punishments for it, and enforce those limits.
The government has greater powers with respect to Corporations than it does with respect to other groups of citizens. That's because Corporations are a creation of government laws. The government licenses groups of people to put some resources in a pot for a money-making (or other) project, and if they get in a dispute it limits their liability to the resources in the pot, as long as they don't deliberately break any criminal laws and follow the rules of the license. A corporation is treated like a separate individual before the law - but as a creation of a license it has mostly privileges, not rights (though the privileges are largely modeled on the rights and privileges of individuals), and what rights it has are the rights of its component individuals.
As for VOLUNTEERING to buy a product with a radio-locatable tag: You can chose to do it. You can chose not to do it. Or you can chose to do it and then remove the tag.
They're just there to keep track of inventory. Once it's yours, remove it (or burn it out in place).
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Now imagine zillions of little chips emitting radiation. So if you're a Coca-Cola delivery guy, and handle many, many cases of Coke each and every day, you ain't having any kids... Sorry.
And then, we'll have script kiddies and hardware gurus making an electronic version of the dog whistle. They turn it on, and VOILA! each and every chip within 10 miles responds and gets fried. And Coca-Cola loses track of 100,000 items. So they produce more, and all other companies who's chips got fried produce more of their products. There is no demand, they lose money, America goes bankrupt and civilization collapses. Conclusion: Your privacy will be violated only for a little while: then we'll all go back to the Stone Age.
Veni, vidi, vici.
will they put these tags in our HEADS too?!? what if you take the tag from a laptop, and tape it to a bottle of beer? would it cost $2000+? or set off an EMP pulse in the store? would you be able to walk out with all the stuff you want?
Very good points you have here; I've been thinking along hose lines myself.
"A man is not an island unto himself" IIRC.
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The Speedy Viking
http://zez.org/
The Speedy Viking
Ten years from now, everybody's going to be running around their houses at ten to seven, with a little tricorder looking thing, searching for their keys. Of course, what happens if you loose the tricorder thingy? :)
There's a plastic strip in the new bills. I haven't seen any evidence that it can be detected at a distance. There's no metallic strip.
I almost hope this actually happens the way they predict, if for no other reason than to see ®TMark find a way to sabotage it.
"Love heals scars love left." -- Henry Rollins
Actually guys, I was the author of the software development system for the radio tags at RF Code (formally ECode), www.rfcode.com. They are the only manufactorers of these tags as the patent is held by coowner, Jim Rodgers [btw, inventor of graphics tablet, among 50 billion other things, the guy is a modern day Tesla and I shit you not about that]. Here are the facts: 1. The tags are at 50 cents. Too expensive to buy billions, we used a Microchip PIC (www.microchip.com) 2. They are 32 bits, not 96, 1 bit is reserved for other uses. 3. Range of frequency is up to 8 feet, not hundreds or millions. I'm sure this will get better, but because they are battery free, you have to broadcast energy in the air to read them, and their return signal is VERY weak. Too much energy broadcasted would blow out your pacemaker. 4. They are used to ID or for inventory ONLY, unusable in detecting them in your home from the street. They are no different than a serial number, if yer going to bitch about ID'ing things, how come you haven't bitched about serial numbers!??!!?!? 5. They can be 'bin-ed' together, that is, hundreds can be piled ontop of one another and read independently [the only system in the world that can do that]. 6. If yer going to steal something from Walmart with their white tags, steal more than 1 item because those tags cancel each other out :-) (not that I know this by doing it, but in theory it should work). 7. You should all fear my code :-) hahaha Aloha from Hawaii, Bwilcutt
This technology walks a fine line. Notice that the article mentions the chips would only communicate with nearby readers / receivers. This is ultimately a good thing -- a geek solution to bronze-age problems like theft and inventory management. However there are also many potential abuses. If the "receivers" have more than a few hundred yards range, then they quickly change function from monitoring, to tracking which is A Bad Thing. How and where I use my new Fudgesicle is up to me, and no other.
Fortunately I believe that subjecting these types of technologies to public scrutiny like Slashdot tends to help us steer toward the former option, rather than the latter. Knowledge is power, as it is.
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Knowing slashdotters, the first thing that's gonna happen is everyone is gonna have a fit about consumer rights. Now they can track us wherever we go. Now they can tack away are basic privancy. Etc.
One thing that the article makes clear and the everyone should keep in mind is the range of these things is extremely limited. We're talking 1 cm, right now, maybe a couple of feet when the tech is perfected, and even then the devices don't continually broadcast, they only respond to speciall readers. So no, companies can't follow their produts to your home.
This said, the radio tags seem like a good idea to me. With devices like retail bcomes a lot cooler. The checkpoint devices will actually work correctly, for one. When you walk out of the store, a reader on the entrance will only sound an alert if you have a tag that is in inventory. No more false alarms. And checkout will be very easy. Instead of scanning every item by hand, a reader can quickly tally every item in your cart. Not to mentioneEvery cart could have a reader that keeps a running tally for you. No more overspending.
Things get better on the other side of the equation, too. Taking inventroy is very easy. Walk down the isles with a reciever, and it tallies everything. Put recievers in trucks and make sure your stock isn't dissappearing. The list of cool things that these can do go on and on.
This isn't a technology to be afraid of. Read the article. Be happy. These things are already working wonders is things like ski lift tickets and livestock managment. Don't let paranoia get in the way of some cool technology.
Stupid like a fox!
how theoretical....your own NSA, secret service, and pentagon eat your constitution for lunch every single day. your utopic dissertation is quite innacurate mostly everywhere. a constitution rules the State in which it is valid, no use going into rights, duties, whatever for worldwide peace ...pure theory.
tell the french to follow your constitution! it doesn't work. different cultures have different values. you can't kill a cow in India, whereas in Texas it is perfectly legitimate to eat one pound steak in the morning if you wish.
Profit used to be banned in China. Their culture is more religious and conservative than american. How can you make speculation look good in China after thousands of years of economy that ignored the western world? Profit, commerce and money are the basis for our western world. Not there. How do you enforce a French-based constitution there?
Need I mention Israel? Need I mention Cuba? Humanity, rights and law are complicated. Therefore, I think your ideas are nice, but they don't reflect reality.
The American Constitution is a beautiful piece of work. And it has been working for Americans (except in elections) for over 200 years. It is a piece of work derived from a lot of blood and pain in Europe in the 18th century. The french revolution killed thousands. The russian revolutions killed thousands. Rome, greece, all in there in blood and knowledge.
So slowly we will make the world a better place. But don't overestimate your constitution's powers. As an example it is very valid anywhere. As a document, only within american soil.
Take care.
Broken Hearts are for Assholes. - Frank Zappa
erm..that's nifty. heh. i once exploded a sun box with some sulfuric acid and a q-tip. heh. i did that while i was a senior master sergeant in the air force. heh. now i work for the fbi. i'm eleet.
heh. you phear what you don't understand. i'm eleet. heh. =]
anyways RF ID tags have a very very very short range, I would be really hard pressed to track a tag from orbit even if I was a government body with trillions of dollars at my disposal. I get your overall point, but ELINT interception is more an issue of whether you know what you're looking for and where to look for it. Actually sensing it isn't really that much of a problem. RF is RF, and there are some fairly sensitive national technical means out there. Even civilian radio telescopes are sensitive enough to receive RF-bandwidth radiating sources whose received power makes a snowflake hitting the ground seem like a nuclear bomb by comparison. Anecdotally, I've been told that it's possible to "see" the wrecks of World War II B-25 Army Air Corps bombers at the bottom of Lake Murray in South Carolina, USA -- because of the radar reflections off them, even though they're underwater!
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
I was reading somewhere (USA Today, I think. I probably submitted it as a story, unless I decided it would probably would be rejected so why bother?) that some company thought to do this and the outcry was so overwhelming that they had to back down. Their current tags are set up to be worn, rather like the ones used on people under house arrest. Wish I could remember the company or where I read this...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
"Distraction" by Bruce Sterling has lots of stuff with characters using this kind of tagging.. Smart building materials and digitally inventoried communues.. Neat stuff..
This headline is flamebait. Anyone who reads about this technology knows that the radio tags are so small that they can only transmit a few inches. Basically the idea is to give the ability to bar-code something without having to locate the actual tag with the code on it. No fumbling around at the cash register, trying to get the product oriented just right so the device can read the code.
It's not like they're sticking a transponder in there which can be tracked by GPS. Sun's not going to watch your new computer go home with you in your car.
In addition, it won't give them more information about you than they already know about you, since most electronics hardware already has its serial number which is globally unique. This tag still won't give them the ability to trace the unit to you personally, unless the store you bought the unit from gives them access to their customer records (not very likely, IMO), including credit card info. I'm not sure about the legalities, but since Motorola is already able to tell that you own one of their Cell phones for example (which transmits its ESN for everyone to hear), then this really isn't anything new.
You can accomplish anything you set your mind to. The impossible just takes a little longer.
that you have to worry about, but the day that they want to implant it.
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
So to be of any use for vendors from a personal use standpoint, they have to have readers all over the house. Not likely! No readers - no reading - no big brother. You don't want your stuff scanned, don't install a reader in the house. No need to swap tags.
As for these smart refrigerators everyone always talks about - give me a break! I'm in the Home Automation business. These things will never fly. Lord knows its hard enough to remember to put the milk in a glass vs drinking from the bottle. Whose gonna scan the code so the fridge knows when you use it? I didn't think so :)
--
Top Most Bizarre/Disturbing Error Messages
This is a short list right off the top of my head of things that have happened in my lifetime that people were initially very upset about but they then got used to:
I really don't think there is a dark motive behind the technology in this article but remember: just because you're paranoid, that doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.
OpenSourcerers
And at one cent apiece, they aren't going to have any surge protection :)
Personally I think we'll be all zoned out first with our little borg implants.
There are plenty of sites out there that connect the Bush family to the Nazis. Search for all words "nazi bush", and do NOT forget your ultra large grain of salt.
That all said, given all of the chipping away at personal freedoms on the basis of commercial advantadge and so on, it is bothersome, scary, and in my darkest moments, it certainly looks like something is going on.
Of course the psychs will have a pill for that disease, being "Hyper Attentive Political Activism" or some such thing. Remember that you being stressed out at work is "your" fault.
This sounds whacked, of course. But then, so do alot of the kids in HellMouth. What happens when this grows and is magnified into the political system, and it is adults who are reacting?
Sorry for ranting, just a bad day on the phones.
We are all bozos on this bus.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
We all know what happens when you put a credit-card or other magnetic stripe card on a tag eraser pad - the mag. stripe gets jacked. How can you use an RF field to burn out one of these tags if the tag is installed on a delicate electronic device? You'll cook the whole thing, not just the tag. Even if this would work and not harm the product, what's stopping the manufacturer from building stronger tag circuits to prevent comsumers from deactivating them? This is NOT a good thing. The possibility (certainty) of abuse is too great.
Don't companies already track what we consumers buy? Some stores do special discounts if you use their card, each card has a name / address associated with it. Of course that is optional...
But what happens when you go to the local 7-11 and buy a super big gulp daily (or twice daily here).... they actually do track that. They have to in order to keep the story stocked with enough pepsi and penguin mints!
Is it bad? No way!
Same thing with cans. Who cares, its like a serial bar code that allows them to easily process the cans, instead of having to clumsily move them over a laser scanner.
Ever need an online dictionary?
> ...detonate a nuke above the stratosphere and subject the US to an EMP surge
Hey, if that's what it takes, I'm all for it.
My first reaction was, "Oh geez, there goes privacy." but as I read the article, I realized what others have posted here - the range is not going to get much bigger than that of those anti-shoplifting scanners in yer local Barnes and Noble.
I think it comes down to "No thing in and of itself is evil, but its manner of usage may make it so."
Now, with that said... IF some smartass actually comes up with some kind of cellular system where the limited range of the transmitter is made up by having a grid of LOTS of receivers, I'll get worried. Instead of taking up arms, the geeks of the world should unite and take up soldering irons against our oppressors!
Vive La Resisters!
+++++++++++++++++++++
The Digital Sorceress
You claim that people will make an informed choice about whether they want to give up privacy for functionality, but do you honestly think that Sun, Motorola, Gillete and all the rest intend to let you have a choice about it? Once this technology hits Wal-Mart, your choice will be between buying products that track your every move, and not buying products, period.
Slavery is freedom!
-- 1984
I fear your teachers have made you the victim of a defective education. You have a few events out of order and appear to be advocating a disprovable educational fad. Perhaps we can come to agreement if these are corrected. (Or perhaps you can point out where I'm wrong. B-) )
how theoretical....your own NSA, secret service, and pentagon eat your constitution for lunch every single day.
A tendency of government that the Founders warned against and tried to head off. Their work held up amazingly well until World War I began the expansion of the Federal government that changed the balance of power between it and its citizens.
your utopic dissertation is quite innacurate mostly everywhere. a constitution rules the State in which it is valid,
As I said: Here it's the law of the land. Everywhere else it (claims to be) a statement of an ideal.
tell the french to follow your constitution! it doesn't work. different cultures have different values.
Tom Payne went over there and did. That, along with the success of the American Revolution, were major factors leading to the French Revolution.
And it DIDN'T work the same way. And it nearly got Tom's head cut off (by the revolutionaries), too.
Profit used to be banned in China. Their culture is more religious and conservative than american. How can you make speculation look good in China after thousands of years of economy that ignored the western world? Profit, commerce and money are the basis for our western world. Not there.
Actually, for thousands of years they WERE the basis of the economy there, as well. Chinese were the permier capatilists (and small businessmen) of the world. Then the Chinese Communist revolution and Mao's regime attempted to stamp it out - apparently unsuccessfully.
How do you enforce a French-based constitution there?
"French-based"? You seem to subscribe to a current fad among left-wing historians, which attempts to analyze all constitutions and revolutions in terms of the French. (This is very convenient for them when they argue against actually empowering the people and for elitist rule.)
The American Revolution predates (and to a large extent inspired) that of the French, and both the theoretical and political influences on it were wildly divergent. The US constitution owes much more to the Iriquois Confederacy than to anything from Europe.
Before the colonization of the Americas the histories of the Greek and Roman Republics were used to support the claim that Republican governmental forms were flawed, and that a strong leader (such as a King or Emporer) was needed for stable government.
In North America the Six Nations Confederacy was operating a stable and powerful republic, across a land area that dwarfed the kingdoms of Europe and across cultural and language barriers that dwarfed the collection of them. There's a Franklin quote to the effect that if THEY could make it work then WE bloody well ought to be able to do so. The Federal Constitution is more closely modeled on their institutions than those of Europe.
Jefferson expected them to eventually become allies and perhaps petition for admission as states or otherwise form a combined nation. (Unfortunately for them, their public health measures had so reduced disease and thus the need for resistance to it, while Europeans were spending a millenium "mortifying the flesh", that many of the tribes were decimated by the sudden introduction of several European illnesses - of which Smallpox is merely the most notable.)
Need I mention Israel? Need I mention Cuba? Humanity, rights and law are complicated. Therefore, I think your ideas are nice, but they don't reflect reality.
Thank you. But I think you misunderstood my post.
I wasn't claiming those ideas as mine. I was explaining how the documents themselves claim a measure of universal applicability, in response to a claim that they only applied in the US.
The American Constitution is a beautiful piece of work. And it has been working for Americans (except in elections) for over 200 years.
Actually, it's in elections that it is most effective - and still working today. Note that in the recent presidential election power was transferred after a lot of talk but without tanks in the street. THAT's what it's about.
Republics aren't about fairness. Republics are about figuring out who would win the civil war, so you don't have to actually FIGHT it. As long as the election process is a good enough model of the war that anyone trying to reverse it by WAR would LOSE, there generally won't be a war.
(Note that it doesn't have to predict the war outcome accurately. Starting a war to reverse a close election will bring out a lot of people against those who are trying to reverse it, and tip the balance.)
It is a piece of work derived from a lot of blood and pain in Europe in the 18th century. The french revolution killed thousands. The russian revolutions killed thousands.
Again: Please check your chronology. How could the US Constitution be derived from the shed blood of the French and Russian Revolutions when it predates them?
Rome, greece, all in there in blood and knowledge. So slowly we will make the world a better place. But don't overestimate your constitution's powers. As an example it is very valid anywhere. As a document, only within american soil.
I think we're agreeing with each other here. As I said, the Bill of Rights claims that everybody HAS certain of the rights it enumerates, but only claims to BIND the US Federal (and in some cases, state) governments.
Take care.
And you as well.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
These tags just work like barcodes. Their max range is only 60 cm from a 'reader,' if that. It is not like they can track you in your home or anything. These aren't gps devices. They also cost over $1 each, and manufactures freak at the idea of adding a few cents per unit. This whole concept is completely unrealistic; it just does what barcodes do in a more expensive manner.
They are hoping that 'maybe someday' they will hold more info and that they will have readers with longer ranges. But the cost problem will still apply.
As for tracking use in home, be realistic. Nobody is going to set up internet access for their fridge! That takes extra phone lines and extra internet chages(if you want to have more than one connection at a time). You have to actively work for them to invade your privacy in this manner- i dont think most people will do that. Moreover, 'wiered' appliences have been doing much worse than the tech industries seemed to imagine; people dont want little kitchen appliances that communicate with each other! most people dont even bother to set up their vcr!
This may make a neat movie premise, but this doesn't have a snowball's chance of actually happening.
Read the f*cking article, everyone! With a range that is currently 1 cm and isn't gonna get much gger, no one is gonna be tracking anyone and ripping away rights. Read the article and chill out.
Stupid like a fox!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
. . . by a unique hardware ID.
Namely my NICs MAC address. Unique hardware IDs are ultamately necessary for networking. The question is will all of their uses be fully disclosed and optional.
-Peter
"There is no number '1.'"
'Scuse me while I cry for the forgotten lessons learned at the Nuremburg trials.
After I have received the wisdom of good teaching, I will untiringly teach all people. - The Teachings of Buddha
I made no such claim of perfection - you read that into my post.
My apologies then.
I agree with you to some extent that the US constitution has probably influenced other constitutions. But the US constitution in turn was clearly inspired by other constitutions as well. Many good constitutions are significantly older. While not all of them (and associated laws) included what we today consider basic rights from the start, they laid the groundwork. And modern democracy is really quite young, in any nation. For example, many modern nations did not have universal suffrage until well into the 20th century. (1921 in Sweden and 1947 in the US.)
The Swedish constitutions or "grundlagar" (they are actually four) date back to the 14th century, and many basic principles of democracy have been part of those constitutions for hundreds of years. Two examples are the freedom of press (prohibition of censorship, etc) and offentlighetsprincipen that were both made part of the constitutions of Sweden in 1766, ie 22 years before the US constitution was drafted. The offentlighetsprincip deserves special attention, since it probably has nothing quite comparable in other constitutions except the Finnish. It guarantees access to most documents and communication at courts, govermental agencies and institutions.
That principle was reason for a dispute with the US Congress a few years ago (acting on behalf of lobby groups with no real national interest in the issue) when Swedish authorities published the Bible of Scientology and made copies available to anyone in the world. It all began after a citizen began sending the Bible to parliament, courts and other institutions. Letters of protest sent by a US congressman and a US commerce agency spokesman also became public, much to their surprise and dismay. All these texts automatically became public according to the constitution, there was no way around it. The principle has been the cause of many politicians' fall, since the media routinely browse new documents and find out things they otherwise would not have.
For more info about the Swedish constitution:
ICL - Swedish Constitution
The Finnish-Swedish Offentlighetsprincipen (s.c.nordic FAQ-related texts)
For more (but partly outdated) information about the very fascinating Scientology case in Sweden, these sites are recommended:
Failed US pressure on Sweden
Zenon vs CoS - the A.R.S. Posts
Operation Clamblake: Zenon Panoussis vs. Cult of Scientology
Moving on to the federal constitution of Switzerland, it is admittedly significantly younger (from 1848, although its democratic traditions are quite old and direct democracy has been an integral part of the country's history for some time. In my opinion, the Swiss constitution is the best overall, despite that the democracy comes with a price: slow decision making.
If anyone wants more info about the Swiss constitution, I whole-heartedly recommend the book "The Referendum - Direct Democracy in Switzerland" by US political scientist, professor Kris Kobach. The following URL can also be useful:
Global Ideas Bank - Exporting the Swiss constitution
ICL - Swiss Constitution
Just keep in mind, giving products unique IDs is something which has happened all the time in the past© Intel did it© Microsoft did it© Don't be surprised© On the other hand, these companies tend to not be able to get away with these ids once the public notices©
Um©© hate to break it to ya, but product ID's have been used by just about every manufacturer for a long time© Called serial numbers© The difference with Intel was that it was no longer just printed on the board for human reference, but accessble by the big evil corporations and hackers behind the internet©
-Andrew
There are those out there who claim that cell phones cause brain/eye cancer.
In the immortal words of Ebeneezum the Wizard:
"There are also those who claim that if you stick your fingers in your nose and blow, you'll increase your intelligence."
The larger, better-controlled studies on cancer vs. EMF have all come out negative.
Soon everything you buy will have an EULA attached to it. See, even my pillow has one...
Let's get drunk and delete production data!
Great, just great... You can take it for granted that, someday, the Russians or Chinese or somebody is going to detonate a nuke above the stratosphere and subject the US to an EMP surge... Society as we know it would collapse badly. But could you imagine the chaos when all these little chips in everything all get zorched?
Hit "submit" rather than "preview". A couple edits I'd have made otherwise:
Thanks for the references. (I've squirreled them away on my home machine so I can find them after they horizon out on Slashdot - something I rarely feel a need to do.)
Meant to say "I've squirreled YOUR POST away - something I rarely feel a need to do." It was excelent.
I know the Sweedish system was mentioned in the debates. As a set of maritime nations the colonies had a significant Sweedish population fraction.
Meant: I know the Swiss system was explicitly discussed. I don't know that about the Sweedish, but given the Sweedish population component I strongly suspect it was. (and will consult my local expert B-) )
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
is there a signal they could use that couldn't be jammed?
;-)
yea, this will take all of ten minutes to hack.
Just keep in mind, that product ID's aren't exactly new© There's bar codes and serial numbers all over everything you own© The difference here is that there's a different way of reading that number©
If, for instance, a ID scanner needed to be within a foot of the device, it would be as bad as some of you are making out© Just because their dropping a chip into your stuff, doesn't mean they'll have it transmit the ID to there base station 2000 miles away© The power consumption, alone, would render that useless©
This technology will just allow the Tech Repair guy to wave a wand over your unit and see repair info on it, without having to hunt down the serial number printed on the 3rd IC from the lower left hand side©
-Andrew
Sounds like tremendous usefulness overall, and I understand that much of our purchasing is already tracked via credit card. Of course, you could always use cash...but what is to stop the government from putting them in the bills themselves? It would sure make life easier for banks and governments, maybe retailers too. And maybe harder for counterfeiters.
-- Spike
Use Adsense for Charity
just walk into the mall, fire it up, and let it rip (imagine the whine from the ghostbusters backpacks followed by a really loud crackle ...) .... oh you wanted kids? tough ....
How the hell are they supposed to get power? Is the coke can going to have a battery built in? If it did how much power do you think it could radiate? Cell phones put out a few watts of RF, so far research hasn't proved anything definite as to how tissue is effected.
What makes this different than a serial number stamped on something? A simple chip with a number burned in. Thats all.
Think before you jump to conclusions.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
CowboyNeal: Main screen turn on
CmdrTaco: It's You !!
McNealy: All your fridge are belong to us
McNealy: You are on the way to destruction
CmdrTaco: What you say
McNealy: You have no chance to survive make your time
Here's some more info. http://www.etcetra.com/12051999/dotnet.htm
These things don't have batteries. As you walk through a special area with special equipment the chip gets passively powered and sends out its ID allowing you to merely push your cart and slide your credit card and BAM! no more checkout lines.
Chances are there will be no standard to frequencies and no central database of IDs and it takes special equipment to read anyway. Besides, if they can friggin sniff dead skin cells out of the air and ID me by my DNA what does it matter that I've got 3 IDs off apples running through my intestines plus an ID in my head.
---- Smokin' another sig.
From the article:
These things don't start transmitting until someone scans them. Even then, it's verly low power. I have something very similar that is the area of a credit card and about 2-3mm thick. It's used as an ID badge at work. They don't do anything until they are scanned by a reader and then they transmit a weak signal back w/ the card's serial number. This is compared to a database of what doors that card can open and if it matches, the door unlocks and I walk in.I can certainly understand why some companies would want to this in order to get a handle on inventory control and shrink. It would be great for them. I don't like the tracking and marketing aspects of it at all. I don't like junk mail (real or virtual), whether it's random or targeted. (After the lawyers, can we kill all the people in Marketing? =)
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
Sigh, another karma whore who posted before reading the article. These things only transmit a signal when exposed to "the energy field of a nearby reader". Which means they're obviously RF-powered. No power signal, no radiation, no cancer. The FUD line is over there in Redmond, take a number.
But I like that idea.
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
It's not like he's going to have it scanning things all the time. Besides, he's probably got to worry more about getting cancer from his cordless phone or microwave oven than the minute amount of radiation he's going to pick up when he scans the cargo.
the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
This is another great example of that way of life: Acquire as much wealth as fast as you can without regard for anything else. The corporatate leaders are fulfilling the American dream. How ironic.
Such monitoring devices give control to the person recieving the gathered data. It's like having a banner add gathering demographic data on everything in your home, your car, where you go, who you meet, what stores you go to, etc.
There are some good points, such as being able to locate stolen cars, missing valuables, missing persons (by radios in their clothes,) helping prevent shoplifting, etc. And I'm sure that they'll cite this info when trying to drop the product on the unsuspecting public.
But this is all a power grab. It's demographic data harvesting. It's control. It's being silently observed all the time. It completely exposes individuals. It allows THEM to design frightfully accurate marketing tools. You might call it radio-rape. And if you own too many-non radioed devices, maybe the thought-police might come and get you.
Big brother is growing more eyes.
O'Toole's Commentary on Murphy's Law:
I remember back in '89, I worked a small internship project with AT&T. It was to set up a manufacturing info system at a small facility. My faculty advisor commented that there was a major cultural issue, in that we were now gathering lots of data. And now we could correlate much better the products with who made them. And the issue was, "will they use this data against me somehow?" This is a natural, and legitimate, fear. The response was that the data could be used to identify who needed more training, since they were having problems. Duh, and who needed to purged.
And it continues apace. Sometimes I think technologists do something because they can, not because they should. It's called hubris.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
The sky ain't falling. You see, I live in a world where consumers actually have a clue. So if they are willing to buy a product that compromises their privacy for additional functionality, then they'll weigh the consequences and make a decision about whether or not the product is worth their time and loss of privacy.
/. tried to PROMOTE ingenuity. Guess I was mistaken, heh.
Just because a company decides to tag all consumer devices, doesn't mean that its going to sell. Is someone going to MAKE you buy this product... or are you just whining because you "want it, just without the tracking." Then go make one without the tracking device, you bunch of whiny babies. If enough people agree with you, you'll be rich.
And here I thought
Protector of Capitalist views,
Protector of Capitalist views,
Meorah
As in that ad they ran a while ago with the scruffy guy with shifty eyes in a trench-coat walking around a grocery store, stuffing things into his pockets. As he walks out the door, the security guard stops him -- to hand him his receipt.
That's what this technology is leading to: no lines at checkout. Just push your cart through the scanner, either swipe your card or hand over the cash, and leave. Or, if you really trust the newfangled "radio bank card" that will shortly follow, just walk on out (or maybe press the yes button when your "watch" beeps and displays the charge amount).
Sure, it might make your purchases a little more trackable, if you pay electronically, but I doubt the option to use good old anonymous cash is going away any time soon. And these tags themselves are exactly equivalent to bar codes WRT privacy.
---
First, the occupational safety of the guy scanning stuff is a much different issue than every product in the country constantly broadcasting at every person. Now, it could still suck to be him, but the power levels of these things are (in my estimation) several orders of magnitude lower than cell phones, and the extent of effect cell phones have is far from clear.
This technology will just allow the Tech Repair guy to wave a wand over your unit and see repair info on it, without having to hunt down the serial number printed on the 3rd IC from the lower left hand side©
Obviously there are good reasons for doing this, but I think you're missing a the other half of this picture. Just like everything else there are positives and negatives. This system has a large potential for abuse. Information brokers, advertisors, and whomever is capable of accessing the database with all this information would have the ability to create a very detailed profile of just about anyone. You coorespond this info with credit card info, you can figure out what an *individual* spends there money, where they spend it, when, ect ect. One could create a very detailed circumstanial history with this information. I don't know about you, but I don't feel anyone has the right to know what I do on a day to day basis or should even have the ability to do so without probable cause. I probably haven't even scratched the surface as for as possiblities are concened either. You give a bunch of creative information brokers who have plenty of incentive (money), they could probably learn more about me than I know about me.
puck
The ideal implementation for this technology would allow scanners to track the id tags from a few feet thereby allowing companies to track you as you walked thru doorways of stores. They could then link the id on the tag on your pair of pants to the credit card used to purchase them and track you anywhere you go.
When you get into your car, it might transmit your whereabouts back to the central nervous system of it's navigational service, and track you that way.
What's the worst they can do with this information? Kill me?
Well, I had fun today anyway so if they kill me, it's okay.
I realize that not everyone in the world is going to own a Sun product, but lets say this scheme was in corporated by a more consumer level company like Magnovox or RCA, or Sony. Then walk through any random neighborhood and chances are good that almost every house or apartment will contain at least ONE of these products.
Some anonymous individual who aquires a method for exctracting this ID from remote and is able to match the item to a specific product should walk through a neighborhood getting an inventory of everyone's homes. Then publish a list of ALL these products cross referenced by address and mail it out to everyone in the area. Make sure
you include on this list a listing of all the companies that made this possible. There would probably be such an outrage that these companies would silently retract the whole scheme lest they fall victim to extreme market pressure.
-Restil
restil@alignment.net
Play with my webcams and lights here
I've got an idea, how about all of us geeks putting our money togther, buying an island, and creating our own country! It'll be fun!
Now what if our hypothetical delivery dude had a handheld reader/scanner device to read the chips while making his rounds? There is your power source... Here comes his cancer...
Veni, vidi, vici.
Try removing the tag and carrying it with you for a while. Wander through some area that you know has plenty of readers, like a large store or mall. See what happens when they think you're driving your car through Radio Shock. One could have plenty of fun messing with removing and/or transplanting tags, as long as such activity doesn't become illegal "marketing circumvention."
Bugrit! Millenium hand and shrimp!
When was the last time you used your debit/credit card to purchase small items at a convenience store? To buy gas? To buy a large item? Stop and think about the money your bank makes from selling your buying habits and history right now. And you were worried that some cheesy spam house might connect your e-mail address to your clicking habits.
Mommy. What's a karma whore?
Yes, that is a concern, but there are already some 140 million guns in the US. Perhaps they'd mandate retro-fitting, backed by suitable Draconian penalties.
Personally, I'm much more concerned with mandated so-called "smart gun" technology. Most of it is RF or IR based, leaving it vulnerable to jamming by criminals or the government (but I repeat myself).
We must not allow our tools to be taken from us and used against us.
Gordon.
He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.
-- J.R.R. Tolkien
How much does a reader cost? How much do tags cost, in quantity 10, not 100,000?
For obvious privacy reasons, I don't want to have to register my hammer's tag with any outside entity.
Mystery?
Everyone knows that there's a little sock eating troll that eats a sock here or there every once in a while.
Next you'll be telling us that the Tooth Fairy or Hogfather don't exist!
Do the doors make that little noise the ones in the original Star Trek did? Now that would be cool.
>(After the lawyers, can we kill all the people in Marketing? =)
You may remember that the marketing division of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation were the first against the wall when the revolution came. Now we just need a revolution...
Bugrit! Millenium hand and shrimp!
(eerie silence of disbelief)
What, none of you others are joining me in the worship of the Free Market? Godless Communist heathens! May your currencies collapse and economic stagnation rain down upon your house!
Um, whoops. I'm gonna get modded down as troll, aren't I?
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IANASRP- I am not a self-referential phrase
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IANASRP- I am not a self-referential phrase
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email: proprietary becomes free, org to com
People like you, and the successes of the moderation system (this post reaching 5) are why I read /.
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IANASRP- I am not a self-referential phrase
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IANASRP- I am not a self-referential phrase
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email: proprietary becomes free, org to com
What this will do is greatly help reduce theft - and this helps everyone out there who isn't a theif. When you go shopping a significant portion of the price of goods is to make up for shoplifting. Those stupid scanners we currently have are basically useless - it's too often that they're wrong. Now if a store owner could track all items in a database there wouldn't be any mistakes. When the alarm goes off you _know_ that someone is shoplifting.
Another thing this could do is reduce the cost of doing business - thus reducing prices for us. Just think of how easy inventory would be. No more need to close shop for a few days, just click the "tally" button on the cash register.
This technology will reduce the cost of doing business. In the process, we'll all save money and I think that is a good thing..
Willy
You did not know that the corperations are turnning us into a pseudo-communist state. The corperations will be the "party" and they will own everything (unlike) the USSR where the government owned eveything.
It was _decentralized_ property ownership that made this country great, not centralized corperations. Centralized capitalism has the exact same problems as communism. Hell, just look at all the corperate welfare we have today. That's the great sucking sounds of centralization which killed the USSR.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell