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Interview: Corel CEO Michael Cowpland Answers
Corel Linux and Red Hat Linux
by ajs
At The Bazaar, I asked you if you recommended to your customers that they install Red Hat Linux as their server OS, and you said "Yes." Is this still Corel's stand, or are you moving toward the server market as well?
Cowpland:
Corel's Linux focus has always been on the desktop. Our goal when we created Corel LINUX OS was to take the rock solid Debian distribution and KDE desktop and build an easy to install and simple to use Linux distribution for desktop users that would act as a platform for our applications (WordPerfect Office 2000 for Linux and our graphics suite for Linux). That is still our focus - and providing a distribution that non-technical users would be comfortable with was key to bringing our applications to Linux. We have made a few partnership announcements in the past few days with Newlix and O/E One, but these partnerships are part of our core competency - creating user-friendly applications and GUI. Newlix is creating a server that will run Corel LINUX OS - we are building the GUI. O/E One is building information appliances that will be based on Corel LINUX OS and use our user-friendly interface. Certainly configuration for Samba and other server tools are available in Corel LINUX OS as they are in other distributions, but we want to maintain our focus on the desktop and provide a clean, easy experience for our users.
Corel Office
by LostOne
How committed is Corel to porting their office package over to Linux? Will we see the same functionality in the Linux versions as in the Windows versions when the ports are completed or will there be functional differences? For that matter, will the applications be able to talk to other X applications using the standard X protocols?
Cowpland:
We will begin testing beta 1 of WordPerfect Office 2000 (WordPerfect 9, Quattro Pro 9, Presentations 9, Paradox 9 and CorelCENTRAL 9) this month and anticipate the office suite will be available on store shelves in April. To make WordPerfect Office 2000 a viable choice for users, we needed to focus on the core functionality of the applications and ensure we provided users with a complete productivity suite that has all of the functionality most users will ever need. There are some limitations in the underlying transport layer that prevent a 100% feature parity. Please note that these areas are under active evaluation and development.
Our goal is to provide the same functionality on both Linux and Windows platforms. Features that are heavily dependent on the operating system, may be delayed until the Linux operating system supports them. Rather than try to develop applications that meet the lowest common denominator, we are taking advantage of the strengths in each of the operating systems and this will most certainly show up as minor variations. Our first generation of Linux applications will depend on a porting layer and this porting layer can be extended to talk to other X applications. We recognize that interoperability with other X applications is important and that will become a focus once we complete our interoperability with legacy documents and applications.
Canada and Corel
by dbarclay10
I'm a proud Canadian citizen. Despite the "brain drain," I still feel that Canada produces top-notch hardware and software. However, many of our highly skilled people have taken jobs in the U.S. and abroad because they get paid more. I must say, when offered nearly twice the pay, and with a lower cost of living in some U.S. cities, I'd be tempted myself. My question: How dedicated are you to keeping Corel a Canadian company? Are there any political/business issues you wish to see resolved to help keep Corel a Canadian company?
Cowpland:
It's a major advantage for us to be in Canada - an excellent workforce with super productivity and easy access to world markets and we don't see this picture changing.
Corel Linux Licensing issues
by Anonymous Coward
One of the biggest issues most of us in the Gnu/Linux community face when considering Corel Linux is that of figuring out your commitment to Open Source / GPL software. First, there was the flack over your beta not being GPLed in spite of containing GPLed code, and then there was the weird situation with you licensing a product developed by people under 18 only to consumers over 18. Would you care to comment on these issues, and on what you can say to reassure those of us who, frankly, doubt Corel's commitment to the ideological positions we hold dear?
Cowpland:
Unfortunately there was a misunderstanding when we initially began beta testing Corel LINUX OS. The intention of the agreement was to keep Corel-specific code under non-disclosure until we were ready to release the product. The reason why we wanted to do that was 1) to protect our reputation for producing quality products by not releasing code before it was fully tested and 2) to ensure that someone didn't copy the Corel-specific code and begin distributing it under our corporate name before it was ready to be released. Once we realized that the agreement was not clear and was causing concern in the open source community, we immediately amended it and sent new agreements to all the beta testers that spelled out more clearly what we intended. I think our quick response to the open source community actually earned Corel more respect and support because it showed that we do listen to the community and take their complaints very seriously.
The licensing agreement isn't intended to prevent anyone under 18 from using the product, however, in most jurisdictions in North America, someone under 18 cannot enter into a legally binding contract. Basically that means that someone under 18 can read the GPL licensing agreement, agree to the conditions, download the product and then not be bound by the terms and conditions of the contract. That idea may seem far-fetched and wasn't really a factor for developers throughout most of the life of Linux. But as Linux becomes more and more popular, I think the open source community needs to make sure its interests are protected. That's why we require a guardian or parent to agree to the GPL license on behalf of someone under 18 before downloading Corel LINUX OS. The intent is just to ensure the GPL is enforceable.
Corel and ASP
by Schnake
Does Corel have an ASP (Application Service Provider) strategy?
Cowpland:
Linux offers an excellent solution for Corel's ASP strategy. The basis of the ASP model is providing service and value to customers, by offering a reliable and Low Total Cost of Delivery package to ASP partners. Because Linux is developed in an open environment, and the different versions of the operating system are available at no charge on the Web, Linux is also a good value-based alternative for different ASP providers.
Corel recognizes this, and is positioned at the forefront of the Linux movement, with the release of WordPerfect 8 for Linux, Corel® LINUX® OS, and upcoming releases of its entire office suite and graphics suite in 2000. By developing innovative technology like Linux and strategic industry partnerships, Corel is a leader in providing low cost of delivery technology to its ASP partners.
Corel recently announced a licensing agreement with GraphOn to include licenses for its GraphOn® Bridges technology which enables software to be delivered from a server to any client desktop-regardless of the operating system used. In this scenario, Windows NT® software could be delivered from a server to a Linux desktop, significantly lowering overall implementation costs and increasing the number of software applications made available to ASP clients. Taken a step further, the native Linux software would be delivered from a Linux server to a Linux-based desktop-offering an exciting value proposition.
Free as in Beer
by Th0th
...is there any concern that the WordPerfect Office 2000 suite for Linux will be financially unsuccessful due to the fact that personal users of Linux, used to getting software for free, will be unable/unwilling to spend hundreds of dollars on an office suite?
Cowpland:
Certainly there are people in the open source community who will continue to download and use free software like WordPerfect 8 for Linux and we encourage them to do so. However, there are many new Linux users and technology enthusiasts that want to try Linux but have been deterred by its difficult-to-use reputation. These customers believe in the value of the Corel brand and want to purchase a complete office suite that includes support, a user manual and a well-known company like Corel that stands behind its products. And as Linux moves more into non-traditional Linux markets like small business and home users, the Corel brand and technical support will play an even greater role. Many customers have already demonstrated their willingness to pay for these features, as evidenced sales of Linux products from companies like Corel, Red Hat, Caldera, etc. and we believe the market for Linux products will continue to grow.
I also want to let you know that we intend to offer WordPerfect Office 2000 at prices comparable to our Windows suite which are already very aggressively priced. High prices should not be a factor in keeping people away from Linux.
Giving Back to the Community
by Jon Trowbridge
There is a general sense that, besides trying to increase shareholder value, Red Hat and VA are giving back to the community by employing GNOME hackers, kernel hackers, etc.
Red Hat and VA benefit from doing this, of course, but only in the sense that it benefits the free software community as a whole. What sort of things are Corel doing along these lines? Have you hired any free software celebrities and given them the mandate to hack on anything want? What non-Corel development projects are you funding? Besides bigger and better graphical installers, what benefits will the average non-Corel Debian user derive from your involvement?
Cowpland:
The average Debian user might not derive any immediate benefits from our involvement because what we are doing with Linux on the desktop is probably too simplistic for him or her. We want to bring Linux to non-technical users and that doesn't typically describe a Debian user. We believe that an easier-to-use Linux with familiar applications will encourage more people to try Linux and once they do, they'll stay with it. Eventually Linux will move into mainstream markets, creating more demand for Linux developers, and that's where Debian and other Linux developers will see benefits.
We will also continue to contribute the work we do on Corel LINUX OS and the Wine project to the open source community. We're also using our position within the business community to evangelize Linux to other ISVs (independent software vendors) and encourage them to bring their technology to Linux. In the long run, we believe this will help further the development and acceptance of Linux.
Other projects we're currently working on include a printing API that will be released to the open source community. We needed to create a printing API now so that our applications will be able to print once they are released in the spring, but by releasing it back to the open source community we hope that Linux developers will provide feedback and suggestions to improve upon it.
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Granted, this makes it more difficult for other WINE developers, as perhaps Corel has already solved something someone else is working on, and at some point there is going to be a huge CVS commit all at once. However, this does make a certain amount of corporate sense: If you're going to be selling a Linux-ized version of your product, but it uses WINE in some capacity, why would you want a really,really functional WINE before you have your products ready? Simply put, if WINE works _too_ well before your targeted products are marketed, people could run *gasp* Windows versions of your products, which they've already paid for, and you get no return on your investment except perhaps some goodwill. So, WINE is useful, but it could potentially backfire on their corporate strategy.
So, I can personally see where they're coming from. It does kind of defeat the purpose of Bazaar-like development, though.
Regardless of whether a minor can enter a contract or not, a minor still has to follow all applicable laws. Even without Microsoft's EULA, pirating software is illegal (copyright violation). So while Microsoft may not be able to prosecute for breach of contract, they could very well get the kid for simple copyright violation.
As for the GPL, it seems safe to me. If the minor is not able to enter into the contract, the minor simply has no right to distribute the software, and would be in violation of copyright if he/she did so.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I know most of us don't get support for Linux from that companies that we work for, even though they spend tons on inferior products made by a certain other company. But if you can get your boss to fork over $100 for a Linux office suite instead of the big price they pay for that other one, do it!
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
I don't think so. When you buy the CD, you already have the right to use the software on it. You don't need to be granted any additional rights in order to do that.
Consider a book. If I buy a legitimate copy of "SedentaryZ's Guide to Getting Karma on Slashdot", then I already have the right to read it and to make use of the instructions within it. (By "legitimate" I mean that you, as the author, have granted the publisher the right to make copies and distribute them.) I don't need to be granted any additional rights in order to make use of it; it's mine.
(I would need to be granted additional rights if I wanted to legally copy and distribute the book, because I don't hold copyright on it. I could make any number of copies for my own personal use; I could even distribute excerpts from the book as part of a review of it (under Fair Use); but if I wanted to give out or sell copies, I'd need to obtain the right to do so from you (the author) or from someone else to whom you'd assigned that right.)
Since I don't need any new rights in order to use the book, any "contract" that purports to grant me those rights is pulling my leg: trying to sell me something that's already mine. If the only thing I'm "gaining" from this "contract" is these rights I already have, it isn't a contract -- there's no exchange. It may be a waiver (which I may disagree with and still use the book) or it may well be an act of fraud.
You can't waive a right by refusing to sign something. Refusing to sign something means that you don't have whatever rights signing it would give you, but it can't take away rights you already had (in this case, from buying a product). Refusal to sign an agreement leaves you in the same state, rights-wise, that you were in if the agreement was never written.
(If that were not the case, then I could write the following into an "agreement": "If you agree to this agreement, you owe me $500. If you do not agree to it, you owe me $500.")
That's (my non-lawyerly interpretation of) the state of common law. That's what UCITA would change. UCITA would (among other things) make statute law which let software companies create just that kind of Catch-22 agreement: "If you agree, you waive the right to use this product to do X, Y, and Z; if you disagree, you waive the right to use this product at all."
(Please note that this entire discussion, including the state of common law as well as UCITA, is founded on the notion of the legitimacy of copyright and other "intellectual property" models. These "rights" are constructs of statute and common law. In other words, they are monopolies created by government -- in the United States, monopolies proposed in the Constitution -- and are not natural rights in any sense.)
The law exists to protect minors, not the other party. IANAL.
Corel has already committed HUGE chunks of code and bugfixes to Wine, and that includes in the last couple of months. Corel paid Cygnus to add several MS Visual C++ compatibility features to gcc. These are now available free of charge for everyone in gcc 2.95.2. Even if they never submit another patch they'll have done a ton of good things for Wine, including many "unsexy" things that wouldn't normally get done in an open source project.
That said, they have indeed slowed down commits recently as they approach beta. It's because they want to have a stable tree to build a shipping product. This is perfectly normal, as anyone who's developed commercial software knows. (heck, or even non-commercial - the Linux kernel has code freezes too). They've been reasonably open about the process with the Wine team (ie, we don't know their ship dates, but we don't care either).
As far as future participation, they're going to merge back any Wine bugfixes they make post-codefreeze once their apps go gold. They are currently paying Alexandre Julliard (Wine's leader) to make a necessary major architectural change that should greatly improve compatibility for Win32 apps. (Keep in mind this change won't help their applications - it's only for running existing Windows binaries that it comes fully into play). Once all this is done and shaken down I think you'll see a real "beta" version of Wine rather than the current pre-alphas. So if you have a favorite Windows app that's misbehaving read wine/documentation/bug-reports in the Wine source distribution and get posting on comp.emulators.ms-windows.wine.
Finally, Corel's work is even helping their competitors - we are aware on wine-devel of a fairly major Mac/Windows app who's developers have it up and running on WineLib to prove to their bosses that a Linux port is easy and feasible. It's doubtful that would've happened this soon if Corel hadn't gotten involved and blazed the trail.
BTW, Wine is under an X11-style license (and is switching to the real X11 license as we speak). If it were GPL'd it would be useless for closed-source commercial applications such as Corel's.
-Ian, wine-devel and proud (grep "Ian Schmidt" ChangeLog).
See Wine run! Screenshots at http://home.twcf.rr.com/ischmidt/wine.ht ml
Interesting point.
All you 16 year olds out there, quick, compile GNU code, sell commercially, file for IPO.
Hurry, before the bubble bursts, and you're old enough to vote.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
I don't use WordPerfect for Linux because it wouldn't print the same characters as it displayed on the screen. I think I'll give it another try now that I have a True Type font server up and running, but I'm not too hopeful.
It doesn't matter whether they give anything back or not. They're not taking anything away from you.
And I think you underestimate the value of their evangelizing. I'm an Amiga user, and take it from me: the size of your userbase matters!! If more people start using Linux because of what Corel is doing, then more peripheral manufacturers are likely to supply Linux drivers, more application developers are likely to write Linux applications and games, etc. All Linux users, including the hackers, benefit from this.
Perhaps they'll never really be part of "the community" but they'll be an ally. That's better than nothing.
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
If the command-line interface isn't good for newbies and a traditional graphical user interface isn't good for power users, then I say we need to change the interface completely. An interface that speaks in a language that pretty much everyone understands -- not C.
Understand where you, yourself, are at in the user-OS continuum. Step back and gain a new vantage of computers in general. Understand the user. Understand also that the most hard core hacker is also a user. See the operating system as a solution. Not for developers, system administrators, or desktop users; you and everyone else here is aware of these niches and rant about it constantly. But for every other niche out there. Separate yourself from the computer and its technology and ask yourself how the computer can be more useful for the on-the-field scientist, the engineer, the desktop publisher, the presenter, or the captain. Others too. These people need an operating system that doesn't necessarily cater to the masses too. They need a solution in a language they understand.
Do not simply but a happy newbie-proof shell on top of a sturdy OS. Make the newbie-proof shell THE OS. Make it a guru-proof shell, also, by compromising both. Consolidate. Innovate. Integrate. There are no free features. Don't hide the operating system, expose it. Don't cater to the techno-phobe, there are many companies who are willing to cater to them for profit. If the interface doesn't fit well with the operating system then change the operating system.
Understand this and you will know what World Domination really means.
Ignore it and you are only servicing yourself.
Choose. But do not take too long. Your hesitation may be our undoing.
Ok, so this brings up a question I've had about EULAs. Most EULAs that I've seen include a phrase much like this one from one of Microsoft's SDKs:
By exercising your rights to make and use copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, you agree to be bound by the terms of this EULA. If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, you may not use the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.
Isn't this the opposite of what you're saying? If I don't agree to the restrictions in the EULA, then I waive my right to use the product. As I understand it, the company is retaining all rights to the copy of the software that you have bought and is simply granting you rights to use it. This has always seemed screwy to me. Has this ever been challenged in court? Have software companies legally enforced some of the clauses found in typical EULAs?
Somebody moderate this moron down. This is exactly why I've told Rob we need a moderator rating for "factually incorrect". (Such a rating would be interesting in meta-moderation, to say the least...)
/.'ers? Is is just because of the Gnazi political bias?
This guy admits to posting IRC hearsay, and it gets moderated up to 5 even though there are at least two posts below from credible people who are actually in a position to speak with authority and provide facts showing that his slanders aren't even remotely true.
From where I sit, Corel is doing quite a bit for the community, but won't keep it up if they continue to get treated like this. Is that what we want? Gee, this community could (and may yet) drive away nearly everyone.
Why do we tolerate such sloppy work on the part of our fellow
(I don't mean to paint the whole FSF crowd with a broad brush, just those that are reactionary and flame anyone who dares to suggest that the GPL may not be appropriate for every situation in the world - that's pretty much my meaning for the term "Gnazi".)
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
They would be known for releasing buggy code.
No... they would be known for releasing a beta. Beta's are buggy.
In response to the question about not releasing the source code with their beta....
...The reason why we wanted to do that was 1) to protect our reputation for producing quality products by not releasing code before it was fully tested...
What does it matter if they release the code to some "Corel Specific" part of their distrobution? If they had released the code, they would be getting hundreds of bug fixes code submissions. These guys do not understand what they are doing.
Actually, I was confused by this, as both GNOME and KDE have a solide, reasonable printing API, and Corel already uses KDE.
Perhaps he meant that they would be re-architecting the back-end (currently GhostScript/lpd).
No. Just because the license is not binding does _not_ give you permission to distribute it ad naseaum.
Essentially, it makes it like a book or a CD, which do not have licenses. You can make infinately many copies for your personal use. You can reverse engineer it. You can install it on 50 machines (if you own them all). This is true for commercial software as well.
What you cannot do, is distribute it. Without the GPL to give you permission to distribute the software, you may not distribute it at all. You can make modifications, but not distribute them. Theoretically, you could distribute patches, though.
I use Macs for work, Linux for education, and Windows for cardplaying.
With regard to newbies, I would say that Linus is actually better about preventing damage to the system. The reason I use Linux is because it's a better operating system, despite some difficulties. But I fail to see how making a bunch of easy graphical configuration utilities and a super-easy install script will result in a lower-quality OS. It seems to me that what you want is for only smart people to use Linux, so you can feel special. This narrow, "clubhouse" approach to computing unnecessarily discourages people everywhere from being efficient with computers. As long as those who are knowledgeable want their knowledge to remain sacred and "pure", the whole society is hurt.
When someone (BillG) comes along with the idea to put a computer on every desktop, everyone scoffs. And then look at the crap we get when he succeeds! If you want to keep Linux in the cabal, fine, but don't expect the rest of us who want the choice of an easy Linux to stay back in the Dark Ages with you.
Walt
but Corel is evidently thinking logically and rationally about how to make money without damaging the energy and vitality of the community.
Certainly not out of the goodness of their hearts, though. Not damaging the vitality of the community that produced Linux and its tools is in their long-term best interest.
The cake is a pie
I think it's great that they are building applications to fill the gap so that newbies can use Linux. Many of these applications that they are building are specifically made to enable the newbie user. It can only accelerate the process of making linux viable for the masses. Perhaps they will give input and help to the projects that they draw from in Corel Linux in the future...
You should have explained to her in simple economic terms such as efficient exchange of human resources. Of course, you also have to explain that competitive advantage in this context is not meant to make money. This fact is usually the hardest for people to understand.
...
As for the value added closed applications, the hybrid could end up working well. We don't have to be pure
Hah yeah, the same goes for business taxes. People don't think it affects them until they realize that the producer is increasing prices of their end goods and services because of them.
They are filling a particular need so that newbies can use Linux. OSS projects are just as free to do similar things that Corel is doing.
I don't know why you have to be completely against them. Can you provide me with a logical economic model where Corel would be able to actually profit from their work? I doubt paid support plans will have much success.
I'm sorry, but there are many things that we could do in making a more intuitive GUI, more legible documentation, and applications that fulfill certain needs that would be good for every user.
Of course, we also have to hide some functions from users in attempt to simplify, but that is what different distributions (or hidden more advanced menu modes) are for.
Other projects we're currently working on include a printing API that will be released to the open source community
This looks very interesting. Say what you will about Window$, but it has AMAZING printer support. What you see really is what you get. I would love to see a really good quality printing API for linux. Are there any out there already that do a good job (especially on non postscript printers)?
Yes. I've been boasting about linux to my friends for a few years now , but when they asked me how to install it i could only say
..) and you have a winnner. It's getting there folks..
" you need to know a lot about your PC before doing it. Partitioning, your IRQ's and I/O addresses of cards, your specific hardware, etc"
Now, i tell them to burn corel linux, make sure their CDROM is bootable, and off they go..
I'm certain others will follow with the easy-install, what i read about mandrake 7.0 SEEMS to follow with easy installation..
But, I do warn my friends, that once they have installed linux, any problems they encounter could become a technical issue. It's these issues that linux needs to address in the future and it's obvious it's going in that direction :
Make the utilities talk to each other, make printing flawless and easy, make configuring the desktop and other nifty things easy as pie. Make it such that anyone can perform basic troubleshooting and fixing, (.. etc
OH, and i know caldera has had a very easy to install distribution for a while, but it does cost money. =)
Oh purleeeeeeeeze!
Making Linux easy to install is not synonymous with making it insecure. Lots of Windows software installs itself with security settings that are plain stupid (e.g. Outlook Express running virus infected attachments). But just because this is true for one company's product and operating system doesn't mean that anything produced by, say, Corel will be result in the whole of Linux being "dumbed down". You will just get your same old, nice and secure, configurable Linux, with a nice set of easy to use configuration tools and easy to use installations. This doesn't stop you doing your thing - that's the whole point. In fact the more desktop Linux users Corel can help, the more likely you are going to be able to keep a job in the Linux server business (and the easier that job will be - do you want to do Win2k support?).
"What I look forward to is continued immaturity followed by death."
I really like Corel and their software. I think their focus makes sense. Between Sun, MS, Redhat the BSD siblings, and other Linux distro's, the big open niche here is the new desktop user. Makes sense to me.
I believe I will be purchasing Corel's Office 2000 when it comes out. Maybe I can even convert my wife to an avid Linux user. *grins*
"Anyone who can't laugh at himself is not taking life seriously enough." - Larry Wall
Corel seems to be under a rather interesting impression that they are the reason people are switching to Linux in the first place. I'm quite amused.
It should be interpreted as meaning that basically because of the possibility of high cost people might be desuaded from using linux or experimenting with it; and that is something that Corel will not do.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
Well put. I think the Corel involvement is an interesting new situation for the open source community.
:-)"
Some (especially ESR) have been saying "We're not hostile to commercial interests. You can sell the software. You can make money at this. There's a place for proprietary software. Non-technical users are welcome. Investors are definitely welcome. Believe in the GPL and all sin will be forgiven
But Corel comes along, making no pretense about its intentions ($$$) but trying (with some difficulty) to play by the rules of this foreign community. Further, its strategy is aimed directly at bringing more heathen into the community.
Not unexpectedly, the true believers are wary. But will they stand by their principles: teaching, inclusion, freedom?
It will be interesting to see.
Disclaimer: another owner of Corel stock.
"You can't get something for nothing." - my grandfather, on the stock market and Reaganomics.
In a press release Microsoft announced today that they are entering into a stretigic partnership with COREL. This partnership will come about by a stock swap which will give Microsoft a 31% holding in COREL Corp.
This move immidiately brings Microsoft into the Linux arena with formidable weapons. COREL is Microsoft's main competitor in the Desktop Office Suite business. This not only gives microsoft a virtual monopoly on that front, but they now also have a Office Suite almost ready for the Linux Platform.
In addition to this, Microsoft has also in a single sweep entered the Linux Operating System Distribution arena with COREL's offering of the Debian based Linux distribution.
Seriously folks. Just think what a dark day it would be if something like this happens. Microsoft can virtually take over the market in one sweep. This is right in keeping with MS's embrace and extend policy.
Also uptil now MS had no direct method of entering into the Linux market, other than doing some of it's own R&D. This gives them a simple straight forward and effective avenue.
Hopefull antitrust laws will prevent this from happening though.
I really liked his ideas about bringing Linux to a more novice user base. Sometimes Linux can be very hard to jump right into. It would be nice if more people could move into a simpler version of Linux to start and as their knowledge grows they can move to a more robust, technical distribution.
kwsNI
OTOH, there's no binding way of enforcing any of the other "for profit" licenses, either... so theoretically a 14 year old and a CD burner could LEGALLY pirate Microsoft software...
Nope. If a 14-year-old cannot be held to the provisions of the GPL or the MS EULA, he is still subject to the copying restrictions of the Software Copyright Act of 1982, which sets the rules that unlicensed copyrighted software is sold under.
This, BTW, is why the GPL will probably never be challenged by a corporation in court -- defeating the GPL simply means you are bound by the more restrictive rules of software copyright.
Steven E. Ehrbar
Whether you agree with it or not, there is a perception in The Media (and also among the "regular folks" who rely on The Media for information) that Linux is not yet ready for "regular folks" to use. A lot of people think that when a secretary or your grandmother sits down at a computer to type a letter, that computer should run MS Windows or MacOS -- and not Linux.
If Corel's entry into the market changes that public perception, so that when the PHB needs more stuff typed, he throws another Linux box into the transcription pool, then Corel will have been partly responsible for people switching to Linux.
How is that amusing?
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Look, Corel has a great distro - I just bought a copy of Corel Linux Deluxe this past week, not because I had to (I'm still pretty technically capable and have worked with Linux off and on since the 0.99 days), but because it suited my needs:
Like a lot of the end users they're aiming at, I'm unwilling to spend a lot of time tying everything together, and I'm willing to pay other professionals to do all that for me. For this reason, I tend to prefer distros such as Mandrake, Caldera, and Corel. Let's face it - even some of the commercial distros are essentially OS environment construction kits, where "some assembly required" may substantially understate the facts.
If nothing else, Corel should receive mondo kudos (I like that!) for bringing the excellent technology of Debian down to the rest of us. While quite excellent technically, Debian has a well-deserved reputation for being a real SOB to get completely up and configured. Corel now lets me use Debian without the pain, and the power of Debian's self-updating nature allows me to easily go beyond where Corel did if I choose to. (Besides, I never buy games, so I don't mind buying a distro or two each year - and this one *came* with a game (CTP) and Word Perfect!)
Sure, I could do all the integration and testing myself, but I don't want to. I'm *happy* to pay them money for a distro that adds value. It's like this: I am fully capable (and even have most of the tools) to do all of my own automotive work, but there are times when I *choose* to let someone else do the work - for instance, right now, my car is down in Houston getting massaged by a skilled expert (in this case far more skiled than I), while I devote my spare time to remodeling the house (which explains another reason I like Corel...)
Finally, Unix printing has been completely broken forever (or at least since we had to support something other than a directly connected CAT/4), and in my opinion, is one of the major reasons that no Unix has made seriojus inroads into general purpose corporate computing environments. A really good printing interface would be of tremendous value to the community and like WINE, is far from a "token effort." It's really quite simple: without it, you lose.
P.S.: Take a look at what Corel has contributed to Debian and many other projects over the past couple of years and you'll be surprised. Oh, and their former Netwinder division played a big part in getting Linux to run acceptably on ARM chips, too, so I'd think twice before slamming them too hard.
Disclaimer: I own some Corel stock. When it gets to 150-200, I'll sell you mine.
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
Just a quick comment on people under 18 being unable to legally enter into a contract. I know what the point of this is, but doesn't it seem crazy that in an effort to protect underaged people from hurting themselves (financially), you merely limit their options?
As an example it is against the law in Canada to enforce collect on certain types of debt from anyone under 19. My specific example is a phone bill, where I know nobody under 19 can be forced to pay. Why do I know this? Well in a recent attempt to get a phone line hooked up for when I had to move out of town to get a job, it became clear that being under 19 I could not get a phone line. I had (in essance) been from the ability to actually get phone service.
The companies aren't really to blame in any case where people under 18 or 19 can't certain things. It's this general idea by society (north american society mainly) that once you turn 18 or 19 you are suddenly much more capable of being responsible.
I suppose I'm in a minority. But being under 19 I've already completed 2 years of University, and a year of work in the IT field. Yet because of my age I cannot: sign a lease (ie rent almost any residence), get a credit card, get an account at a video store, get a phone line, get cable, or do many other things crucial to actually living.
It's a sad testament that, in an effort to protect our children, our society decides to bind their hands and treat them as invalids before they reach a magic age at which point it is assumed they will have the ability to be "responsible".
Anyhow, just my biased rant.
If i'm not mistaking, corel posted jobs for full-time paid WINE developers on their jobs page.
Would this not mean they are automatically contributing to an exciting segment of the open source community?
Anyone remember when WINE would crash on Windows 3.1 notepad? I do.
Now i hear it runs tons of applications almost flawlessly. Now, with some real backing maybe it'll become exactly what it's creators envisioned of it. I can't wait.. One day we linux folk will be able to tell our friends:
"Install linux! It's easy to install, and runs all your windows applications! You don't need windows anymore!"
I don't have any problem with Corel selling an office suite under linux ... as long as there are open source alternatives, of course. But it's their emphasis on the distribution which is a little worrying. If its distribution stays as simply a ... but who's to say they won't go after the server market in a couple of years time? ... the last thing we need is to topple one giant ogre and replace it with another ...
vehicle to allow novice users access to linux, fine
Well I personally think that this isn't much of a deal. Consider that the kernel is what technically makes up linux. The rest of the utilities are almost indespensible to using linux. What is bad about that? Does it really matter if say some companies officially give up. Hell Red Hat could quite easily be run in a community oriented way if they so choose. Debian is already doing just that.
Are you implying that Corel will violate the GPL in some way and get a proprietary changes to be made to GPL code? I seriously doubt this.
Slashdot social engineering at it's finest
I've seen concerns on the Debian mailing lists that Corel is simply trying to raise stock price by jumping on the Linux bandwagon and isn't really contributing anything back to the community.
Well, I'm glad that at least Cowpland justified their position by saying that they are focusing on the "newbie" market. OSS Purists probably thinks that anything less than source-level contribution doesn't count, but I'd like to say this: I'm also a hardcore OSS advocate, but this is the real world. In the real world, sharing source code isn't enough; in order for Linux to continue to expand beyond where it is now, it must reach audiences other than coders and OSS advocates -- it must reach people who may not have the skills to contribute at source-level. I think Corel is taking a good step in that direction: catering for inexperienced desktop PC users and yet backed up by the superior quality of Debian. Although the contribution of Corel may not be apparent now (ie. we don't get that much in terms of source-level contribution), years down the road we might very well be thankful that companies like Corel did what they're doing now. If not for them, Linux could potentially be forever unable to penetrate the desktop market.
I know some people would argue by saying "forget the newbie lusers, Linux is not intended for the masses." From an idealist point of view, this is true... but that doesn't justify not *trying* to make Linux usable by the average Joe person. Who knows, what if it works out well? Then the cause of Linux and OSS will be advanced much further.
mikre he sophia he tou Mikrosophou.
The answers seemed evasive in many areas, particularly in regards to "what has Corel given back". Wine was mentioned briefly, but if I am to believe what some of the Wine developers were telling me on debian.irc.net, Corel hasn't made ANY CVS commits to the WINE project in months. You will notice that no meantion was made of "we have done this or that" at all, just more political style rambling about commitment. And I don't think that trying to "evangelize Linux to other ISVs" to encourage them to use linux counts for much other than pure B.S. Like Cowpland is going to be hanging out at lunch casually mentioning "hey, why don't you guys port PhotoShop?" and increasing his own competition.
What Corel has done, from my understanding, is take the thousands and thousands of hours of work of the Debian maintainers (not to mention the work of the programmers that wrote the stuff to begin with) and used apt with their own proprietary installer to install the packages (some one PLEASE correct me if I am wrong and the Corel install stuff is GPL). Red Hat's install stuff is used by just about every other distribution and they have been very good about knowing that if they wanna play the Linux game, this is the way things just are gonna be. Debian could desparately use some more modern install programs, will Debian developers be able to take parts of the Corel installer and incorporate it? From what I understand, the answer is no.
Corel seems to have too much of the Gates style "Its ours, we aren't gonna share" attitude. I don't think they really "get it" yet the same way that Red Hat, et. al. have... that if you are gonna take all these people's work and make money off of it, you better damn well be ready to accept people using your work too.
I do not accept his politicians explainations of "to protect our reputation for producing quality products by not releasing code before it was fully tested". They are very used to the old model of "mine mine, don't touch" and this incident clearly showed they are not fully in step with how Open Source works.
I don't want to sound like I am totally trashing Corel. They can be a strong member of the community, I just think they need to 1- REALLY learn what it means to be a part of the open source community and leave their proprietary thinking behind and 2- actually give something back to the community. Vague comments about evanelising Linux and promises about Wine don't count. When they actually start doing some work with Wine instead of just talking about doing stuff with Wine, then I will be a lot happier.
But maybe Wine work is no longer planned because they feel Wine is no longer needed for them to run Win32 apps on Linux. That would explain their new agreement with (insert the name of the company I forgot here) and complete lack of adding anything to Wine CVS in months.
1) We contribute regularly to the WINE CVS tree. I have no idea why you think that we "haven't contributed anything in months". Check out the wine-cvs mailing list
2) We also have a parallel internal branch where we do some things that the WINE community doesn't want to see integrated into the main tree. For example, we did a KDE look-and-feel patch that the WINE community wanted to see turned into a full modularization of WINE theme code. We weren't prepared to do that work, so it just stayed in our tree. The patch is our there on the development lists, it just hasn't been commited to winehq cvs. Our tree also has other fixes that WINE developers have made that haven't made it into winehq CVS - Ove Kaaven's pthreads patch, for example. We haven't sent in many patches in December and January because we're working on our beta release, and don't have the time to spare to do a back-merge.
3) We also have contractors doing work for us - much of the work that Alexandre Julliard is doing on WINE right now is being paid for by us, for example. That work goes into both winehq and our internal branch.
4) We're planning on making our internal WINE tree available externally soon, so that other people are free to extend and merge some of our changes back into winehq.
5)We're not "just talking" about WINE. Check out this link for screenshots of our apps running on WINE.
6) All of the work that we did for Corel Linux is open sourced. All of the installer, KDE, and apt related code is GPLed or LGPLed. Code that we wrote from scratch is under the Corel Public License, a name-changed version of the MPL. The source code is all up here
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Gavriel State
Engineering Architect - Linux Development
Corel Corp
...But as Linux becomes more and more popular, I think the open source community needs to make sure its interests are protected. That's why we require a guardian or parent to agree to the GPL license on behalf of someone under 18 before downloading Corel LINUX OS. The intent is just to ensure the GPL is enforceable.
A very important implication of this is that Corel sees the GPL not just as something they have to conform to, but as something they may themselves need to defend in court. That's probably a good thing...
Caveat: I own Corel stock.
The cake is a pie
Like some other readers, I found this interview to be lacking in meaningful content.
However, let's keep in mind what we're seeing here. Cowpland is the head of a commercial venture of some size. Most likely, his answers were checked by both his legal department and his corporate communications department. Anything truly substantial about strategic directions will be filtered out by those groups, and saved for venues where the companies can truly control what is said and how it is presented. Typically, this means a press release or a major keynote at a conference (remember, Apple doesn't announce new initiatives in interviews, but at Macworld keynotes).
The real content here is between the lines. Cowpland shows a sensitivity both to the needs of the open source community and to his responsibility to his company and his investors. Many companies want to make money in open source (and after the Red Hat IPO, you can bet that number increased dramatically), but Corel is evidently thinking logically and rationally about how to make money without damaging the energy and vitality of the community.
Sure, they may have bungled a few things, but they're learning. If more companies think about open source as well as Corel appears to have, we'll have a strong, revitalized industry on our hands.
Then we really will be able to tackle corporate and govenrmental behemoths.
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Klactovedestene!
Most of this interview was completely worthless, but the fact that someone is working on a new printing API is really good news.
The lack of solid, consistent and reliable printing under Linux has been a huge hole. Hopefully they'll do it right, and it will be up to the standards of Windows.
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Does GNU have any specific comments on the validity of the license with regards to minors? If minors in the US can break contracts willy-nilly, there's doesn't seem to be any binding way of enforcing the GPL. OTOH, there's no binding way of enforcing any of the other "for profit" licenses, either... so theoretically a 14 year old and a CD burner could LEGALLY pirate Microsoft software...- -------
+----------------------------------------------
+------------------------------------------------
+ The urge to destroy is a creative urge
Ummm. I think you'll find Corel _are_ the reason that people _will_ switch. They are targetting a new segment for Linux.
Personally I this interview makes me think well of Corel. It talks about what they are _doing_, rather than lots of guff and fluff about how super duper Linux and the GPL and the OS movement are and oh I couldn't have done it without you guys etc etc.
They talk about doing useful stuff to help ordinary people. Like sorting out the crap printing system that has dogged Unix in general and Linux in particular for such a long time.
They talk about software - writing software, writing good, useful software, then selling that software. I _like_ that. They aren't talking wishy washy stuff about moving in to the portal business offering enterprise level support and consultancy in the fast moving OpenSource blah blah blah community blah e-solution blah blah.
It's really nice to hear technology companies talking about technology and not talking about amazing paradigm shifting exciting new development strategy forecast peace in our time god bless america I love you all thank you so much it's great to be alive at this time and goodnight.
:-)
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The GPL is not a contract; it's also not a "license agreement" like the MS EULA. It is a license, pure and simple. It doesn't say "You may not use this software in certain ways"; it says "You may copy and distribute this software in certain ways". It grants you privileges you would not otherwise have; that's what a license does. Without any license to do so, you have no right to copy the software (no "copy-right"); with a license, you do.
Contrast this with the MS EULA, which claims that by using the software, you are waiving certain rights which you would otherwise have. MS wants you to think that's a contract: in exchange for a "license to use" the software, you're agreeing to waive certain rights.
The thing is, you already had the right to use the software, because you bought a legally-made copy of it. When you buy a book, you have the right to use it, that is, to read it and make use of the information in it. The same applies to software, or any other work. This does not, of course, give you the right to distribute copies of these works; the right to use your purchase is not the same as the right to copy it.
So in fact the MS EULA is a waiver, not a contract: if you agree to it, you're waiving rights you had, but you're not getting anything in return. If you don't agree to it, you still have the right to use the software, just as if the EULA had never been written.
(A contract, FYI, requires an exchange of "considerations" --- goods, services, rights, or something else of value. If there isn't an exchange, there isn't a contract. The GPL isn't a contract because you're not giving the software author anything; the MS EULA isn't a contract because MS isn't giving you anything.)
(It may seem that under the GPL, you are giving the software author something: your agreement to follow the terms of the GPL. Yet this isn't the case. In fact, the terms of the GPL are the limits around the gift you are being given. If I give you an easement on my property, that you may fish in my pond from noon to 3PM on weekends, you aren't giving up a right to fish in my pond at other times; you never had such a right to give. Similarly, when you make a copy of GPLed software, you don't give up your right to turn it into a proprietary product; you never had such a right to begin with.)
In my non-lawyerly opinion, the GPL may freely apply to minors, because the minor isn't giving anything up; s/he is only receiving. Minors may, after all, receive gifts. However, the EULA may not apply to minors, because the minor is waiving rights s/he may not be competent to waive.
Neither is a "contract", but minors are protected from waivers as well as from contracts; they're not "protected" from being given gifts, which is what the GPL does.
The "One Important Question" link is broken (typo).
It's not a typo.
Here's the original link:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl ' sid=00/01/17/1119222&cid=110
Here's the fixed link:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl ? sid=00/01/17/1119222&cid=110
Note that instead of a ?, the broken link has a '. There's a bug in the script that converts the question marks in Roblimo's postings to tick marks. The script exists so that Roblimo's articles don't look like JonKatz?s. There's clearly some logic to prevent a ? at the end of a sentence from being converted, but it doesn't check to see if the ? is inside a URL.
That's my two cents, and I'm sticking to it...
The "One Important Question" link is broken (typo).
Fixed link here.
Anthony
"I think any time you expose vulnerabilities it's a good thing." -Attorney General Janet Reno