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PPCLinux.Apple.Com
imac.usr writes "MacNN mentioned that Apple now has its own Web page describing Linux, the distributions available for PowerPC Macs, and links to them." But can you drag your hard drive to the trash to unmount it?
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Apple makes some cool hardware and an OS.
Some people don't like that OS for the job at hand.
PPCLinux exists.
Apple is left with 3 choices;
1. Try to stop PPCLinux ( fat chance from a technical and legal standpoint ).
2. Ignore PPCLinux and hope it goes away. Thus pissing off it's customers who will just go get Alpha or heaven forbid iNTEL.
3. Start investing resources in PPC Linux. It doesn't really have a reason to do that since without a "no brain required" OS ( like MacOS ) all they are selling is reliable hardware and guess what. Some PCs are almost as reliable at a fraction of the cost. ( Penguin Computing comes to mind ).
4. Put of a site look like a customer loving corporation.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
Apple is using this to simply exploit linux. They do very little from what I see to help other operating systems.
</quote>
Apple funded or at least provided a good chunk of funding to produce a Linux variant on the Mac called MkLinux. They did this before any of the other companies even thought of jumping on the bandwagon. The project kind of died because the monolithic LinuxPPC port was better for a variety of reasons.
<quote>
BeOS does not support the macintosh G4's (G3's also..) because Apple wont help them &/or
release specs to help them.
</quote>
And your point? BeOS is their competition and even more proprietary than Apple. Be would have laughed their asses off if Apple asked for help porting MacOS onto Be hardware. Intel doesn't help TransMeta build fast processers either. That's called business. Now since a bunch of developers could figure out how to get Linux booting on modern Apple machines that means Be is just whining. Sorry, no sympathy. They don't want to support Apple and are using this as a convenient scape goat.
<quote>
They opensource parts of their OS X that they want to use in their
operating system.. how convenient..
</quote>
I'm not even sure what you're whining about here. It would be better to Open Source none of it?
Apple isn't perfect, but they've put in an honest effort on some things and have been improving.
Notice that the listing of ports is not in alphabetical order, as it reasonably should be. Rather, TSS is listed first for some reason. LinuxPPC second, and then goes on to Debian which should be listed first if striving for alphabetical order. SuSE's forthcoming version isn't even listed.
It's no secret that Terra Soft gets preferential treatment by Apple, and it's reflected on this page. This is most unfortunate politics played out on what looks to be an official Apple web site.
Most sincerely,
-- haaz.
...and API routines not typically implemented in the kernel.
No, just information. Marketting would have come up with a better looking page. Admit it.
1. If Apple was so worried about Linux, they'd pretend it doesn't exist. As it is, they've embracing the inevitable, to their potential advantage. Why is this wrong? This is the way a company is supposed to work. If it doesn't hurt anyone, big deal.
2. Apple gains from people buying Macs to run LinuxPPC - the only loss is in OS upgrades and maybe market for 3rd party Mac software. Apple would surely prefer that you bought a Mac for Linux than no Mac at all.
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com)
- Jeff
Apple is using this to simply exploit linux. They do very little from what I see to help other operating systems. BeOS does not support the macintosh G4's (G3's also..) because Apple wont help them &/or release specs to help them. They opensource parts of their OS X that they want to use in their operating system.. how convenient.. They have given little to the linux community... but filled their plate with the benefits of the free world.
Thanks apple!
SB.
I'll believe that Apple's embracing Linux, when a FULL Quicktime port is released for Linux.
Note that I didn't say an open source port...
to sell hardware... Apple's income comes from hardware. MacOS is a way to sell hardware. But they'll be happy to sell you hardware to run linux if you want.
It appears that Apple has also been nice and aknowledged LinuxPPC by offering the user a pre-set partitioning scheme in the "drive utility". The utility is used for partitioning your drive. As of v1.8.1 there is an option for LinuxPPC which gives makes all the partitions for you (swap, etc, etc) Their size changes with proportion to your HD size.
I doubt Jobs knows about such things, but they sure are nice to see.
very interesting, although not what i would have expected from Apple (although they are "thinking different" with this one). My main problem with the page is that there's almost nothing on it. You would think that they would put more work into it! Here's a short list of what I'd like to see on this page:
ben's linux page is a good start--but there needs to be more pages like this one. I'd also like to hear if there is anything soecial that needed to be done to build the kernel he has posted.
darren
(darren)
Kevyn is more than "just some guy at Apple who likes Linux". Kevyn is the DTS person at Apple responsible with helping certain Linux/PPC Developers get information on machines and to get Apple (hardware) engineers to do a better job preparing specs for external use.
This is an honest to god position that Apple setup to help certain Linux developers. Steve Jobs himself was the one who approved the position. (FYI the certain Linux developers are a group of people identified by Apple as being in the core development stream. They only have one DTS person working on it so he doesn't have the resources to answer 1000 questions a day. But by picking 10 or so main kernel developers they have the resources to help.)
--Mark
http://www.mklinux.apple.com/ has been around for 2 or 3 years. But LinuxPPC definately has more momentum right now than MKLinux, so I guess it's cool that Apple is supporting
> But you can't choose Linux and still, say,
> play Quicktime movies. If Apple is so into
> letting someone choose his/her OS, then are
> they working on a Quicktime Player for Linux/
> PPC?
More to the point, why aren't YOU working on a QuickTime Player for Linux/PPC?
Gee, you don't think that the reason that Be "couldn't" support Gossamer-based-G3 or newer Power Macs had anything to do with the fact that they were passed over as Apple's choice for their modern operating system in favor of NeXT? Hmm.
I think it's great that Apple will host a page with links to various Linux/PowerPC distributions. Certainly, their OS focus right now is Mac OS X, and granted, the Linux buzzword is attractive these days, but in general I think we can file this page under "more cool stuff you can do with your Mac". Apple, after all, lives and dies by its hardware sales.
[I'm sorry about these HTML tags here, but Slashdot's Extrans posting mode seems to be broken]:
<I>This page looks very unproffesional.</I>
That's because it wasn't put up by a pro. Apple has a huge number of sites/pages on the Apple.com domain that are maintained by people inside Apple who want the content to be there. Many of their dev pages aren't candy-coated.
I think the main point of this page was to show support of Linux by hosting Ben Herrenschmidt's kernel page off Apple.com. (Ben ported and maintains the kernels for Apple's latest machines.)
Aside from the kernels page, this site has a total lack of content. Everyone's noted the spelling errors, and even the lack of decent links. I'd think Apple would try harder to get actual info on doing installations to the public.
Where is my mind?
mfspr r3, pc / lvxl v0, 0, r3 / li r0, 16 / stvxl v0, r3, r0
Check out Project Upper/Mute, an all-around awesome compiler fra
Well, how about that port of Quicktime for linux ?
What exactly are my options for viewing movies created with their server software using patented Sorensen codecs ?
Apple seems perfectly willing to support ppclinux when they feel there is no possible way it can dent their OS. And when they are about ready to take BSD and release it as their next Mac operating system.
Maybe then they will allow lowly linux users to view their video - but I doubt it.
Linux is important for Apple. They know they are selling machines to have people run Linux on. Why is this a big deal? Well it given people a choice. Now you can CHOOSE your operating system (Linux) and then choose which platform you want. A lot of people are picking the newer Macs as their Linux platform.
But you can't choose Linux and still, say, play Quicktime movies. If Apple is so into letting someone choose his/her OS, then are they working on a Quicktime Player for Linux/PPC?
At the time, Apple was trying to get itself in gear working on their Copeland project. Copeland originally was supposed to be Mac OS 8, and was supposed to include preemptive multitasking and protected memory, and all those fun little buzzwords. No one especially cared what these couple of guys were doing when everyone was so focused on getting Copeland out the door. As we all know, Copeland got killed. No skin off my back; Copeland was such a bastardized, hacked OS that no one in their right mind would have used it, much less developed for it.
In the meantime, the guys working on MkLinux had decided to base it on the Mach microkernel, figuring that this would make it easy to port it to other systems. They got DR1 and DR2 out the door, and they even worked half-way decently. The installer warned you about five times that you were doing something that could wreck your file system, and they didn't give you any options in terms of what was installed, but damn if it didn't boot up with a linux kernel and run KDE when you typed 'startx'.
After Copeland was killed off, Apple started up the Rhapsody project - the all-new, action-packed, feature-filled, buzzword-compliant OS based on NeXT's technology. NeXT was based on the Mach microkernel. Guess who found themselves reassigned *real* fast once Apple realized they had been playing around with Mach for a couple of years. To my knowledge, Apple has never officially dropped MkLinux.. they just don't have anyone working on it right now. The MkLinux web site is still up at http://www.mklinux.apple.com, and you can still download DR3 from there.
The next sort of PPC-based Linux I have experience with is LinuxPPC. I "inherited" (since no one else wanted it) an IBM PowerPersonal 6015. Very few people have ever heard of this beast. It's one of the original CHRP designs, also known as "Sandalfoot". I spent about $50 getting parts so I could get it to run, and decided to throw LinuxPPC on it since I could get it for free. (My other options were AIX and Windows NT, neither of which I had, and neither of which I could get my hands on quickly) Sadly, this system only ran for a little bit. The power supply isn't especially good. If I felt it were worth it, I'd get a new power supply to put in. It's not though, because there's no way I can install LinuxPPC anymore - the CHRP/PPCP installer program won't fit onto a floppy disk, and CHRP systems are not a support priority for the LinuxPPC guys since their are so few of them (CHRP systems, not LinuxPPC guys).
My next experience with running an Apple-related alternative OS came when I received a copy of the Rhapsody for Intel CD. I tell you, it's unholy starting up an x86 box and seeing a giant Apple logo appearing on your screen. It just felt Wrong.
Anyway, I'm going to stop rambling now. My own personal perspective on the web site mentioned in the article ( http://ppclinux.apple.com) is that it is not official in any capacity. It looks like something that an Apple employee just threw together so s/he could say "Hey, my little web page has links to useful info about running Linux on PPC machines!".
P.S. I don't mean to discredit the LinuxPPC guys above. They've done a lot of hard work and LinuxPPC runs very well on the Apple hardware on which I've tried it. It just didn't work so well for me on the obscure, non-Apple hardware.
While I am not up to date on Linux's actual POSIX compliance (although it's definitely not 100% POSIXLY_CORRECT), I can confirm that you're definitely right in that POSIX covers more than just the kernel. Especially conspicuous are its specs for utility progs and shells.
For more information, you can order the POSIX standards from IEEE (yes, they charge for this; they suck) by calling 1-800-678-IEEE (+1-732-981-1393 international), or get the bible of posix.
// zyqqh
Folks, Apple's had LinuxPPC and mkLinux websites up for a few years now. Long before the return of Steve Jobs, they had a small team of engineers primarily focused on the mkLinux project using the Mach kernel.
Whether there's anyone still left at Apple working on this is another question, since after acquiring NeXT, Apple's OS strategy became a Mach + *BSD one. Note that by working with the Mach kernel all along, it can be assumed that work done on the key focus of the Mac Linux porting efforts--device drivers--would be largely applicable to mkLinux, OS X and Darwin.
Good grief, 200 posts to this item and only one AC who noted that this is old? Wow.
I sort of wonder if this is a real apple page. Look at the real apple homepage. Look at the OS X aqua interface. Look at an iMac. All of them are pure eye candy. This page is boring and unprofesional. It had a spelling error(so do my possts, but they aren't supposed to be profesional), and it appeared to be a bit inaccurate.
Has linux really been officially posix certified as this webpage claims? I thought it just follows the posix guidelines as closely as possibly.. And doesn't this certification affect more than just the kernel? Not that I know much about the details of posix but just started wondering..
You know what? thats exactly what apple zealots said when microsoft started making windows. "Apple has better quality, if people just buy macs, theyll see the light, and soon everyone will run them" Granted, apple has improve significantly the last couple of years, but not as a result of quality of product, but as a sole result of marketing. Candy coated computers are good PR, they make you want to buy them ( if youre average Joe six-pack) If linux users get into the same mindset of "our quality will win them over" then linux will fail. Microsoft and others will spread so much FUD youll think that world war three will result from runing linux on your box. lets embrace apple, since theyre helping us as a community market the goodness of linux, and counteract some of the fud thats out there
Note that this page has the old navigation bar at the bottom instead of the new Aqua one at the top. So this page has probably been around for a while and certainly hasn't been updated since Apple redesigned their site.
If you have an iBook and attempt to grab the Bootx and install files from linuxppc.com , the kernel provided will not work (hang on boot). Just grab the kernel from the Apple page, uncompress it using MacGzip and throw it into the Linux Kernels folder in your system folder. All will be well, the boot will be successful.
Just a note for everyone out there, the iBook is one excellent laptop and thanks to hard working kernel hackers like benh , I can now take advantage of the superior architecture in the iBook with the power of Linux.
Thanks for the hardware Apple!
Thanks for the kernel hack Ben!
If anyone else wants to try to get Linux up and running on their iBook and is having any trouble, I'd be happy to try and help. Just mail me at dan@genuinemedia.com
I don't get it, I just don't get it !
At last, Apple has come out fully embracing Linux, and they even have a PPCLinux.Apple.Com to prove it, the people who champion Linux (and all other opensource projects) suddenly turn their noses.
Why?
Why do you have to be critical to Apple just when they embrace Linux?
Sentence like "But can you drag your hard drive to the trash to unmount it?" just isn't going to win any friend, you know?
A friendly reminder to all Linux Advocates:
Believe it or not, Linux is still the new kid in town, and those of us who want to see Linux to be the dominant player in the world OS scene must remember that the number thing we must do as Ambassadors of Linux is to be friendly to all, and only by our friendliness and our helpful attitude that the world will be finally brought into our fold.
Snobbery doesn't win any friend. Please remember that.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Before too many people whine and bitch about Apple let me set some things straight.
:) (Also for information on the Linux/PPC Developer's Reference Release 1.1)
First off without Apple, MkLinux wouldn't exist for the PPC and a lot more effort would have been needed for Power Macs (of ANY type) to support a monolithic kernel.
Apple engineers AND marketing are both interested in working with Linux on PPC developers. We ARE getting hardware, specs, and assistance on making things work.
Apple wants all "new" machines to be supported at or soon after their release. How can we do this? By Apple giving us specs and such. Look at the iBook for a good example.
Now what about those people bitching about BeOS. Everything to support BeOS on the new machine is available to Be. Just because Apple won't hand hold them through desiging their OS, the Be engineers are a bit peeved. Apple isn't hand holding any of the Linux on PPC programmers either, but for some reason we're not whiners like the Be people.
Linux is important for Apple. They know they are selling machines to have people run Linux on. Why is this a big deal? Well it given people a choice. Now you can CHOOSE your operating system (Linux) and then choose which platform you want. A lot of people are picking the newer Macs as their Linux platform.
FYI I know what I'm talking about, Apple loaned me hardware to help with the Firewire linux port... So before you bitch about Apple, understand they are changing, they are supporting "Alternative" OSes, and more importantly they are helping out the independent Linux developers.
Check out www.crashing.org for a good picture of last years Apple Think Different bus..
--Mark Hatle