Women CS Majors Declining

/ writes, "According to a Wired interview with Dr. Anita Borg (her real name) of the Center for Women and Technology, the number of women majoring in CS has dropped considerably of late, as those in the field likely already know. She gives her thoughts on the causes and entertains some solutions."

Comments

Well Maybe,

[chrisd]

Actually, a better statistic is whether Women CS majors are declining at the same rates as Men. I mean, most of the schools I talk to are losing attendees to the industry faster than they can enroll.

This is a bigger problem, for the schools anyhow, than only one group reducing. If , however, the attendance of women is becoming smaller at a different proportion than Men or other groups, then there is a problem.

Chris DiBona
--
Grant Chair, Linux Int.
Pres, SVLUG

First problem: What is the problem?

[Anonymous Shepherd]

Off topic question; do people leave the subject lines to be filled last, after they finish writing their post?

Anyway, several thoughts do occur on this topic:

By the time you focus/target 'women', it may already be too late. They will have been left behind and ignored for too many years, I suspect. In which case any change you effect now, won't be visible for at least a handful of years.

What can be done? The problem is so complex, I don't know that it can be characterized. We're trying to change the social structure in very many places if we want more women in technology and the sciences; we either grow girls more like men(which I suspect men don't want, otherwise selective pressure would have already done this), we change the social model in which women can contribute(a top down approach? Grassroots? I dunno), or we change the way girls see and interact with technology and science. The problem with the third option is that there is no visible path, just a visible endpoint. More women in the field.

How do we deal with the fact that girls get different treatment? Can family support overcome that? How about the way we raise our girls? Can we modify it so that they remain uniquely female but still fit into the current structure of society, at least until social changes force society to adapt? Or do we create an role for the females that they currently do not occupy, but can fit in very easily with very little change, again until society adapts to allow more opportunities for girls?

Am I being to shortsighted here? Or perhaps my view is to narrow? Are there other options and paths we can look at and pursue?

-AS

Difference between Men and Women

[jfwcc]

-
It's horrible to see what macho shit geeks posted.

Psychologist know that the biggest difference between Men and Women IS THE *** BRAIN ***.

Women can see more details, remember them, don't overlook things.

Men can think abstract, ie. have a better orientation sense.

When driving, a WOMEN should DRIVE,
while the MAN reads the map.

Women see streetsigns - men don't.
Men know they must turn left somewhere - women don't.

Women remember that Jack had a red tie on the last party, whilst her buddy doesn't even remember that Jack was there.

Just check these few examples and you'll see why it's harder for women to code,
and harder for men to see their own typing errors.

GOSH !! george./

Women CS students at CMU

[MaxVlast]

I am a CMU student, and the School of Computer Science has made an effort to admit more female CS students (beginning last year). The result is a lot of unqualified female CS students. My roommate's girlfriend is one.

Many of them know nothing about computers--there is a new intro course that teaches the most basic of basics (things that no other respectable CS school would find necessary to teach). It's only open to CS students, and the class is filled almost entirely with female students.

Just my observation--I have no problem with female students in CS or otherwise. I do have a problem with underqualified students. It might turn out that the decision was a correct one. The women might be better than the men when they graduate, and simply have to overcome the lack of CS interest in high school.

I suppose it remains to be seen.

--
Max V.

Re:Women CS students at CMU

[MAXOMENOS]

I am a CMU student, and the School of Computer Science has made an effort to admit more female CS students (beginning last year). The result is a lot of unqualified female CS students. My roommate's girlfriend is one. Many of them know nothing about computers--there is a new intro course that teaches the most basic of basics (things that no other respectable CS school would find necessary to teach). It's only open to CS students, and the class is filled almost entirely with female students.

I would agree with you...if there were stronger CS programs in high schools, to expose computer science to people who don't necessarily have a "natural interest" (quotes for a reason) in programming, Linux configuration, &c. For some people, especially women, their first exposure to computer programming comes in college. And, in Freshman computer science courses, they don't necesarily pick up such wonderful hints as:

• When writing in declarative languages (C, Pascal, FORTRAN), put your commands in sequential order
• How some basic logic functions (such as "or") work
• Characters have numerical values, too, and can be compared against each other.

I picked these these things up when I was 8, because I actively sought them out when I was 8. I was never taught any of this in HS, nor was I expected to learn any of this in HS. None of them were taught in freshman CS either, at least where I went to school; instead, they were pretty much assumed.

With this in mind, I'm quite glad that CMU has a structure whereby persons with little prior exposure to computer science, but demonstrated relevant ability (i.e., mathematical), can get a jump-start.

Fun fact: Georgia Tech's manditory Freshman computer science course teaches how to think about programming, including writing pseudocode, but the students don't do any programming. Learning how to actually program comes later; but by that time, they can concentrate on the specifics of the language rather than on the basics. I'm not sure if this is a better approach, but it seems to work pretty well.

So what? Men and Women are not the same.

[mindstrm]

I'm not saying women have no place in the CS world, or in any way saying they should avoid it, and I definately encourage anyone, regardless of sex, to persue what interests them.

on that note..

our society seems to be blind to the fact that, men & women are DIFFERENT. Statistically, we *DO* think differently. The generalization about women being more for details, men being more for abstract thinking is true as a STATISTIC, not a rule.

Am I saying women can't handle CS? No.. I'm saying that statistically, it doesn't interest them.

Do I think women shoudl be paid less than men for doing the same job? No. Do I think a CS position should be filled or not based on sex? Absolutely not....
but our society doesn't have to keep obsessing over why EVERY DAMN OCCUPATION isn't 50% male, 50% female. it will *NEVER* be that way.

Current Attitudes and Stereotypes

[Nightlily]

Throughout most of the posts there are so many stereotypes about women just being assumed as fact. There are lots of women out there with previous computer experience before even walking in a cs classroom. Before I took the *wonderful* required Introduction to CS at my college, I already had experience in web authoring, building computers and programming. And the reason I'm into computers other than something like English is because I enjoy working on new problems and am techinal minded.

For example, my fiance and I are working on a mail client. Who's doing 90% of the coding? I am. Why? I can program better than him. Gender has nothing to do with that. He's just into different aspects of computers.

As far as the enviroment of computer science being hostile to women. I've personally experienced out right hostility (like some of the posts), but also I've met a lot of people who don't care what race or gender you are, just that you can do the job.

Also women aren't going into computer science because they see a table of geeks and run the other way. The only person I've ever met that chose a major based on if his or her friends were in that one, was a man. Does that mean now that men just briefly think about their majors and don't give it any thought?

Comments like "women don't know anything about computers" or "women are genetically incapable of working in techinal fields" just show to me that some people out there just don't get it. Women weren't originally allowed to go to college because our brains were too "small." Yet Albert Einstein had one of the smallest, compact brains ever recorded.

One of the apparently rare women in computers.

Says who?

[bridgette]

Prior experience in computer science is not and has never been an entrance requiement at CMU SCS. It may seem that way because it has gotten increasingly competitive over the years and the incomming freshmen know more every year (and think they know even more than that - incuding the ability to jude the qualifications of their peers - without the benifit of any of the information in thier applications ;) But the intention has always been that a smart, creative person should be able to do well in the program - even if they weren't hacking 8086 in the womb. How do I know this? Because I've discussed this very topic with the undergraduate dean!

But ask yourself, honestly, if this percieved injustice doesn't affect your treatment of female classmates. As a woman who was admitted to CMU SCS on *excellent* qualifications, I had no time for those boys in my class who had snotty shitty attitudes for no good reason. However, some of the egos one encounters can be a blow to the self-esteem, and it can take some time and support to realize that it's all just hot air.

Sorry if this is a bit harsh, I'm in a hurry, no time to "nice it up"