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Inexpensive Linux/BSD Handhelds
cloudscout writes, "The latest craze in handheld computing isn't the new Palm IIIc, it's the IBM WorkPad z50 currently being unloaded at ridiculously low prices by all sorts of discount Internet retailers. This device runs Windows CE 2.11 by default, however, a successful NetBSD Port means that this device could be the first widespread *NIX handheld. There's even a Linux Port in the works. The initial blowout saw these devices selling for under $250, but the huge demand has driven that price up to the $400 range now. Still cheap for a nearly full-sized system with 640x480 color LCD. "
Yes check out http://www.linuxce.org/ (and probably the netbsd guys too - for all i know they had it first) There are touchscreen drivers for some CE hardware. (The z50 has a little IBM-style joystick not a touchscreen)
I think everybody is at least creating an onscreen soft keyboard first before worrying about handwriting recognition. I expect that right now the non-gpl code that OEM's will bundle with their distro's will have better performance for at least another 1-2 years...
I bought one of these and I've been using it to connect in from the road via telnet for the last few weeks. The battery life just rocks - my first charge laster 10 hours and I'm still using it.
I tried the NetBSD port and was able to get it to boot up. Next step is to get ssh running.
There is also a Linux kernel port that will boot but isn't too useful as of yet. I haven't tried it out.
here'sa bit of a rundown at PDAGroove.com
I have a friend who gets to play with a lot of embedded devices, and I actually was talking to him about these devices last week. His comment was that they just weren't making sense. In particular, the WinCE wasn't very stable on them. Perhaps the NetBSD port could make them more useful, but he recommends the plethora of other PDA types devices, and not this beast.
True,
Here are the computer shopper Prices for IBM WorkPad Z3
And prices from auctionwatcers are Here
Enjoy
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It's brilliant.
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --
I think the big hullabaloo about Windows Refund Day was not necessarily getting the $50 or so back. The real issue was that users had a contract with OEMs/Microsoft for a refund, but the OEMs and Microsoft wanted to back out on that contract. If they had just given those few people who asked their $50 (or however much) right away, it would not have become a cause celebre.
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Unfortunately, since IBM's discontinued it, there may not be enough demand at the $500-$1K price point. Too bad; in most ways the z50 was a much nicer machine than its competition (the HP Journadas and Compaq Aeros), being based on the rather slick Thinkpad 240 chassis. (The only problem is that it really ought to have had an 800x600 screen -- it's big enough.
I'm not sorry I bought mine; nothing better if you have to sit in a library all morning taking notes and in a cafe all afternoon writing your notes up, especially if you don't want to be bothered with carrying around a power supply or looking for electrical plugs. I just wish the Linux port was a little farther along.
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Not VMS, MVS.
Once again, go do research; time-sharing systems are not the same as server OS's. Unix was designed for users to, given a terminal, be able to do their daily work. That's not a "server OS" thing.
The clients were users, not other computers.
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Actually, yes, I do think palmtops crash. I use a Psion, and it's never crashed. However, the comp.sys.psion.misc newsgroup is full of ex-WinCE users who had *frequent* crashes.
Yes, stability matters.
Overhead? Yes, even with X, Unix has dramatically lower overhead than MacOS or Windows. I've run Windows and Unix on the same system; the difference is quite visible.
And, as to your last question, why would I want what is now a generalized data-processing system on my palmtop?
BECAUSE WHAT I MOSTLY DO WITH COMPUTERS OF ANY SORT IS PROCESS DATA!
Yes, I'd like a palmtop that had a good programming language built in, or the ability to run shell scripts or C programs I wrote for Unix.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
A couple of things. First off, I'm arguing for NetBSD, because that's what I use on many of my other systems.
Anyway, Psion's OS is great if you want to do *exactly* what they built the machine for. Beyond that, it's a closed, proprietary system. If I want a small, stable, general purpose computer, my best bet is a palmtop running some kind of Unix.
WinCE is too unstable. EPOC and Palm are too specialized. Thus, enter Unix on a palmtop. Yes, it's what I'd want if I were getting something like a WorkPad.
I'm not saying "Unix is the only thing it would ever make sense to run on a palmtop". I'm saying it's not particularly irrational to pick a Unix-derived system for a palmtop, because it's fundementally a general-purpose user OS, not some kind of mainframe-oriented server OS.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
I've always thought a good form factor for a handheld would be something along the lines of the medical tricorder device from Star Trek:TNG.
:-)
Basically, imagine something only slightly larger than a Pilot (but smaller than the z50 or these other "micro laptops"), with a thick clamshell design that evenly distributes the weight between the two halves.
The reason this would be cool is you could build it rugged as hell-- think a "metal with rubber trim" exterior-- and it would be perfectly suited for clipping onto a belt or whatnot. Just like a tape measure.
It would sure beat these super-delicate quarter-inch-thick Pilots and their flimsy plastic screen guards (well, as long as you don't want to slip it into that shirt pocket...
iSKUNK!
Slashdot needs it's own Mercata-like buying site. Thousands of geeks buying the latest gadget cheap.
Sure, UNIX was designed for mainframes running a bunch of dumb terminals, but the average pocket calculator these days has more computing power than those old mainframes.
The overhead is simply not an issue. You can fit a useful Linux distro on a floppy and run it on a 386. This is easily small and efficient enough for a palmtop.
Linux is nice because it's free and there's lots of free software for it. Why reinvent the wheel? Instead of needing a massive promotional campaign to get developers to make stuff for it, you've already got a pile of useful software.
I agree I thought this thing was cool as hell. For all the b.s. products that come out, I'm thinking the Web Pad has the most potential. Think about it. One big Linux box to act as a gateway, firewall, Web, Mail, etc. server, hooked up to whatever broadband connection is available in your area. Connect to wireless transmitters that connect to however many webpads you need. Think about it for a moment. When people start to associate a computing home network like a (new) car, the mass market will be ready. Give them thier own domain on their server. blah, blah, blah.
/. on VCs...
When this is a viable setup I'm starting a company that does it. Hmm, where's that Ask
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+&x
Wrong WorkPad model, the IBM store sells the Palm-clones, not the z50 that the original post references.
What ?? I thought Linux for x86 was by definition an x86 binary??
Duh read again, I said that Transmeta's hype was about being able to run *all those x86* binaries. Linux has x86 binaries, but a fraction of the total amount available, and ofcourse transmeta really meant windows apps, cause that's where all the apps everyone uses is.
The crusoe was designed with the giak of quickly emulating an x86, I know that it could possible codemorph other insutrction sets. And that wasn't what I said anywa, i said that it was low power *for an x86 clone* - eg, it can clone an x86 - not it was *low power for something that can only clone an x86*, what you say hardly applies since it would consume basically just as much power if it was cloning a PPC.
Me thinks you have been blindly taking in transmeta hype.
Most Windows CE devices run on very low powered CPUs, more os than the crusoe - which is only low powered *for an x86* clone. I'm quite suprised Windows CE devices stay on for as long as they do. Think about it, sound, 16bit colour, multitasking/threaded OS etc.
I don't see what transmeta is on about personally, the only viable real space i see is windows laptops.
They talk about the TM3120 running Linux on webpads, but then also say how cool it is cause it can run x86 binaries. Well sorry, Linux doesn't run most x86 binaries, so that liaves the TM5140 for notebooks. But then the power usage decrease is "ok" but not that much considering the CPU accounts for less than 50% of the notebook's power usage.
The z50s have a built in 56k modem, and they have a PCMCIA slot for an ethernet card. I doubt they will play mp3s though, because the processor is slow. It will run a web browser, email, "pocket" MS Office, and other CE apps under CE. It's basically a cross between a subnotebook and palm device. It's very light, but offers a 6" screen or so with a decent keyboard. Well worth the money I think, especially with unix alternatives.
"In individuals, insanity is rare, but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule." -Nietzsche
> you can pick up 2nd hand Indies for anywhere between $200 and $1500,-
> on ebay and in 2ndhand computer stores, so most people can afford to run a desktop on something
Yes, I know. I'm looking for a used Sun Sparc or SGI (and even VAX!) for quite some time now, but it's not that easy here. (But I want one more for the hack value than for real work.)
BTW: I've used ARM2 and later StrongARM-driven Computers before I had to switch to x86 1 1/2 years ago. I still have them, but a NetBSD "make build" needs nearly one day on a 277MHz StrongARM (overclocked).
> else then x86... Oh, and it runs linux as well if you want..
As a second choice maybe.
> Anyway, RISC is not new, its in fact quite likely to be older then the average age of the posters on
> slashdot, so do not call it new technology or such
I haven't said that RISC is new.
I 've just called x86 old crap.
> maybe newer then plain cisc, but hybrid cpus have been around since at least end 70s and early 80s
Some dates:
First commercial CPU: 1971 (Intel 4004).
First commercial RISC CPU: 1987 (Acorn ARM2).
So RISC is still quite new in the microprocessor universe.
> Not that risc is not cool, it is, but it isn't the coolest thing since sliced bread or whatever,
I haven't said that. I've said "Crusoe is by far not as cool as those pure RISC CPUs".
I don't know what your defination of cheap is, but you can get a Libretto (discontinued, or at least pulled from their website) or Sony Picturebook -now with 12 Gig HD. They will do everything you want.
"Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
Yes it will play MP3's. Its a 131mhz vr4121 MIPS CPU - I think. The slowest part on all CE devices is the display subsystem. (You can even play mp3's on the old nino's and e10's - in mono)
what could be easier? Try doing that with Microsoft's windows.
with enough eyes, all new hardware is shallow : )
I don't know what kind of support there is for Linux at this very moment. At least not of the downloadable stuff. I leave that for the more knowledgeable people.
Transmeta was showing of a tablet at their presentation. I think you can still find it on their website. Now Linus (I think in an interview) said that the handwriting recognition software was better this week then the week before. Meaning that they work on it. If I am not mistaken the 400Mhz Crusoe was going to run the webpads using Mobile Linux. This means that there would be pen input for Linux in the near future.
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A commandline can be a very handy thing, didn't someone once say that 'the reason for windowing was to allow more xterms'?
If features of linux aren't needed, they can be deleted from the kernel, linux doesn't have to be restricted to being a 'server OS'.
Doubtlessly there are some companies using 'me too' factor, but alot of work has been done on embedded linux by other individuals,but linux is completely hackable, you can change it to make it fit your device - AND draw on previously written code, and lots of it - project managers love 'code reuse'....
just my $0.02
Why are everyone in such a rush to jump on the Linux bandwagon, and ignore the technical aspects?
Linux is derived from UNIX. UNIX is a server OS. It is multi-user, with tough security and relitivly high system overheads. Even getting it into a usable desktop OS is a pretty big hack, so why force a server OS onto a palmtop? What advantages do people think there are to using Linux on a palmtop? Maybe they'll provide an ethernet port and allow multiple users to telnet in? Didn't think so.
The only reason i can see for companies to use Linux is the "Me too!" factor involved.
Syllable : It's an Operating System
The itsy - did that have specifications? I think a project would be cool that was to make gpl circuit diagrams, so people can buy a crusoe cpu, compactflash card, ethernet driver and a touchscreen lcd - and make a hell funky pda.
:wq
I didn't notice any of the replies mentioning the Linux PDA announced by Samsung. No price mentrioned yet, but The Gadgeteer lists it, and it is fully described on the Samsung website at http://www.sem.samsung.co.kr/eng/product/digital/p da/index.htm
Yes. I do this routinely in the SF bay and other places I travel. I browse the web, and I read my POP3 email. I even get the first 100 characters of all my email sent to my phone - I now effectively have an 'email waiting' light (very cool) in my pocket at all times. there are several ways to do this, and I wrote up the way I went (a GSM + Psion PDA combo). The article discusses my 5mx, but I now use the smaller Revo. There is also a port of linux to this PDA family at www.calcaria.net (surprised no one has mentioned it).
I have an $800 Mitsubishi Amity with a 1.4 GB hard drive, a Pentium 133 and 32MB of RAM running a stock Mandrake 7.0 distribution. Why am I going to spend $800 (after I finish upgrading the system to have even less capability than the one I have now) for a machine that only runs experimental Linux ports?
Sounds like a loser move to me.
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This post brings up a question that I have been wondering about, but haven't heard anything about. What kind of support is there right now for pen input in Linux? If Linux wants to make the jump to handheld/portable computers this is going to be an important part. Specifically is there hardware support at all and are there any opensourced handwriting recognition software projects? Anyone know? Thanks in advance.
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If you like your P90 notebook, I'm glad for you. But it's not comparable to the WorkPad by any stretch.
It will take years to get to 20,000 posts at this rate!
It is fairly straightforward. The NetBSD hpcmips crowd has been running on a wide variety of WinCE handhelds for a while. If you want to learn more, the web site and (more importantly) the mailing lists can help you out.
Reading this review points a few things that might be relevant.
1. 2.7 pounds.
2. No touchscreen.
3. Full keyboard.
This is NOT a palmtop folks. As a handheld it is more like a low power low graphic low memory low expansion ultralight, than a color palmpilot.
Certainly I could see some uses for a product like this, but since I see people in this discussion talking about handwriting recognition I would like to suggest they make sure they understand the specs. This one uses a nubby eraser pointer like thinkpads and such do.
For some reason the performance chart for this says it has handwriting recognition but since it doesn't have a touch screen that seems sort of a part of the OS and not really relevant to the piece of hardware we are talking about.
D
Unix is *NOT* a "server OS". Unix is a text processing system. Do your research.
Unix has "high overheads"? Compare it to MacOS or Windows, and laugh.
Why do I run NetBSD on my laptop, instead of Windows? Because it's a more flexible desktop platform. Why would I run Linux on a PDA, instead of Windows CE? Because it would be a more flexible platform - to say nothing of "more stable".
But mostly, you're just plain wrong about a "server OS". Unix isn't a server OS, it's a desktop/workstation OS that happens to scale well. MVS is a server OS.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
You don't want that space between the last * and =.
It comes preinstalled with Windows CE, but you can install NetBSD or Linux? Can you buy it prepackaged with NetBSD, or do you have to download and install it youself? How do you install it? This is a palmtop, remember. Do you install the files over the serial interface? Even after you have it installed, how do you interface with this thing? Does it have its own special version of X? Or is it just console commands? And why exactally would it be useful to have BSD or Linux on a palmtop anyways? Usually the palms proprietary OS does everything that the palmtop is supposed to do. Are you gonna be running Apache on your Workpad or what. C'mon people.
Last month, I bought a clearance laptop (Dell LM P90, 16 MB RAM, 1 Gig HD, and 640*480 active matrix display) for $500 Canadian.
I bought an extra ethernet/modem combo for 60$CDN and it runs linux (slackware) with X prefectly.
I don't know about these pda's or sub-laptops, but I think they must get a lot cheaper before they can compete with out-of-date computers.
The Workpad you saw is the C3, which is an IBM-branded Palm. This article is about the z50, which has been discontinued (can't even find a mention at IBM.com) due to the fact that IBM tried to sell them for $1000 when they first came out. Like the original post says, retailers were recently unloading these things for around $250, but demand has since increased the price. Here's a retailer that has a some of the specs listed for the unit. Probably a nice unit under $300, but the current price is a bit much for my blood.
you know, I would really like to have a little device such as this beast, but more important than low price or color screens or hard drive space is that my portable computer must be internet-enabled. I need to bea ble to reach the portable machine from the internet and I need to be able to reach the internet from the portable machine. is anyone out there doing this? does anyone have a plam with a minstrel, or a libretto with CDCP pcmcia hardware? how do you like it? are you able to run services on the mobile machine and connect to them from the rest of the internet?
this might be a bit off topic, but if anyone is doing this sort of thing, gimme a heads up.
(and yes, I've read homepages of several libretto+cdcp people; I know itspossible and it's being done, I just want to know if peopel are happy with it and hear some more experiences.)
Instant-on and extremely long battery life (8 hours on a single charge) make this a convenient device for those of us who deal with on-call support. A 56k modem would be nicer than the 33.6k modem built-in, but all-in-all, simple support activities aren't too painful at 33.6k. VNC is even bearable.
I have the Novatel Wirless Merlin PCMCIA CDPD modem in mine, but the usefulness is limited in Windows CE since TCP/IP applications for that platform are crappy at best.
Your P133 may suit your needs just fine, however it is not going to have instant-on or the long battery life afforded by the WorkPad z50. The people who will use this aren't going to use it as a primary workstation. It's going to be a slight step above a mobile thin-client.
Typical. He talks about the current NetBSD port thats working and mentions that there is a Linux port in progress so on the article title its "Inexpensive Linux/BSD Handhelds.
You are all in the wrong mindset and just posting because you think you are cool. =P Let me point out a few things about CE devices in general that will hopefully clear up a lot of confusion, I'll also make a few comments specifically about Linux & z50's...
On a CE device the RAM is SRAM not DRAM. So the RAM's state is maintained when you power down. So you install everything into RAM. (Unless you also have a compact flash card).
CE is loaded from ROM, and the ROM's are masked - meaning not flash upgradable. But the bootloader and OS are installed into ROM. SO to boot Linux or NetBSD you run a CE app which is a bootloader for a bsd/linux kernel which is on a compact flash or pcmcia card. (Don't even get me started on the lack of protection in CE that allows you to do this) There is hope, on the z50 the ROM card is removable. On some other CE devices its soldered on. So there's a possibility of people selling linux distro's for the z50 that you just pop in... that will be a long time coming though...
In response to a response below this level - IBM is not going to offer NetBSD or Linux as an install option. Ha! Keep dreaming. They have just dropped this device, why would they go on and bother to do development for a dead platform?
Also, yes you can play MP3's on it. It has a fast 131mhz r41xx MIPS chip. IMO its the display driver on all CE devices that makes them seem so slow. (Oh, and probably WinCE)
Oh, and this is not a palmtop. Its a Jupiter class device. Its a mini-notebook sized device. Roughly the size of a Sony VAIO...
Here's a screen shot of a developer running X on a z50: http://pc1.peanuts.gr.jp/~kei/Xscreen.gif
A product overview...
More to come if I can find it..
There's a review of it at Cnet