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Netscape 6/Mozilla Beta Release in 25 Days
liber wrote to us with the press release on Yahoo! regarding the upcoming release of Netscape 6, aka Mozilla. It's a beta, not a full release, but the piece does a good job of talking about consumer anticipation, as well as the big companies that are behind it. Don't wait until the crowd hits. Get started now.
But I doubt it will be because they're using Mozilla. Or Netscape Communicator/Navigator/whatever. Mozilla started out as a good idea. But they took the idea too far, and got way too much of a case of featureitis. The main culprit: the skinnable GUI.
Skins are Good Things, mind you. If they're used properly; that is, on simple GUI's. Take MP3 players, for example. What can you do with an MP3 player? Let's see... play, pause, fast-forward, rewind... maybe a couple sound-related options. But all in all, not a complex thing, and as long as you make the buttons identifiable pretty much any interface will work well.
But skins don't scale. Wrap a skin around something as complex as a Web browser and you start having some serious issues. Consider:
- Consistency. MP3 players are one thing. But if start up something as big as a Web browser on MacOS, I want it to look like a Mac app. If I start it on Windows, I want it to look like Windows. And if I start it in Gnome, I want it to look like my other Gnome apps. While skins can provide a partial solution, there's no practical way to make it follow the changes I make (consider GTK themes to be a prime example; I can change my GTK theme to BlueSteel and get a BlueSteel Mozilla skin, but if I change the GTK theme my Mozilla skin won't change with it).
- Performance. Gecko is blindingly fast, but the rest of Mozilla is slow. I can launch Netscape 3.0 faster on a P90 than I can launch Mozilla on a G3/300, and I've timed this before so I know what I'm talking about. This isn't as much of a problem with small GUI's, but again the problem is one of scale; stick it on a Web browser and the issues that were minor on a small GUI will come back to bite you hard.
- Interface control. This one's actually unique to Mozilla, because of another nice little feature they added: Websites can change a user's skin. I'll pass. The possibilities of exploits notwithstanding, once I have a skin I like I'd rather keep it that way.
It's a pity. Mozilla could have been The Next Big Thing, even with the cross-platform GUI libs (which could still have gone down to OS-native widgets). But then they had to go and build in the ultimate fluff: a cross-platform skinning engine, and then they had to go and build it in before the rest of the product was even ready. That was their one mistake, and I believe it may well be a fatal one. I have nothing but respect for the Mozilla team; they've made a fine program given the specs. But ultimately, I think Mozilla will be treated only as a proof-of-concept. People will still use Gecko, of course. But it'll be embedded into OS-native browsers for that task. Gnome users will have it in Nautilus (and who knows? maybe the KDE folks will put it into the next Konqueror). NeoPlanet will take it on Windoze. And for MacOS? I don't know. NeoPlanet might do it again; there are rumors that they'll be porting and using the Mozilla engine. If not, there's always the WebThing project.It's a shame, but it proves the old adage: a jack-of-all-trades is master of none. Nonetheless, I'll probably use Netscape until something better that uses Gecko comes along.
The OJI, the necessary portion to do a Java plugin, is available at Blackdown. It works with
Netscape... the same technology works with the Windows version of Mozilla, so why no Java on Linux Mozilla?
Not that I'd cry if the world forgot about Java applets. The VisualWorks smalltalk plugin for Linux sounds very interesting.
Okay, at least on Win32, Mozilla is finally running about as stable and lo-mem as IE5. It crashes much less and is actually somewhat fast.
I have a few questions about how it will turn out, though:
1. When the debugging code is taken out, will it run faster/suck less memory, etc?
2. Are they going to get rid of the ugly, glitzy and only semi-functional interface in favor of, say, something with a working multi-level back button, drop-down address list and non-rounded menus? Don't get me wrong, the UI can be sleek, but mockable is a different story altogether.
3. Is the sidebar going away, please?
4. When will the widgets ever look like they're supposed to?
(see
http://www.mozilla.org/xpfe/nsGFXWidgets.html
to see what I mean.)
Anyone who can lend some insight into these minor yet somewhat crucial issues, I would appriciate it.
I'm using the nightly builds quite often and although there has been a lot of progress the last months, Mozilla would not yet be accepted as browser by the masses.
A few of the issues:
Mozilla looks horrible.
They'd better start working on some nice themes, because the default looks are crap. And so tells every friend I show Mozilla. I know that it's cute and looks like Netscape's portal, but it's just not pretty.
Mozilla crashes too often.
Don't let the Beta1 progress list fool you: these are only release-stopping bugs. There *are* tons of other serious ones that need to be addressed first.
Mozilla is not MSIE.
Harsh as it is, this *is* a problem. Even if Mozilla is better than MSIE, a lot of users will not even try it. MSIE does it's job good enough and the general public doesn't care about ethics (yet).
And there's probably even more...
But, Mozilla is open source so we can all help and address these issues. Mozilla is very cross-platform. Mozilla might/should/will? replace MSIE as browser component for AOL and gain instant market share. Other manufacturers can also ship Mozilla or even plain Gecko as browser component without paying a Microsoft fee.
Mozilla will do just fine. Thanks, developers.
Have you reported reproducable bugs on BugZilla? (I have, they were fixed, it was neat). Have you downloaded the source and submitted patches? Sitting and whining works great for closed source (where there's not much you can do anyway), but it's worse than useless for open source software. The source is out there, the bug database is wide open, get on with it.
You have obviously not tried any of the
later nightly releases. It is already
on par with Netscape 4.72 when it comes to
stability, and it isn't even beta yet.
It is _very_ usable, and you somehow imply that
Mozilla/netscape 6.0 won't comply with the standards.
This is just plain wrong.
AND... this is an announcement of a "beta".
If you do truly mission-critical stuff, you
would never use a beta.
The whole concept of beta, means not finished.
It is allowed to contain bugs.
However... beta means a very usable, if not
incredible stable release, and Netscape 4.72
is neither, so Netscape 6.0 beta would probably
be A LOT better for us Linuxusers.
When it comes to windowsusers:
stick with your IE 5.x for now, but when Netscape
6.0 is finished, upgrade.
The standars-complience will be better, and the
browser faster and lighter.
I appreciate your "cold shower" kind of thinking,
but it just goes to far, and ends up being something that could have come out of Microsoft.
I agree that the hype has been great, but the
progress made by the mozilla team is incredible.
The only thing that keeps Netscape 4.72 on my
harddrive right now, is that Mozilla still doesn't
support java. It should be included well before
release though.
This is complete speculation, but I think it is a plausible scenario.
Navigator 6 will contain the Gecko layout engine developed by Mozilla, but it will not be the Mozilla browser. I'm assuming that AOL/Netscape has been working on a parallel browser effort, using some Mozilla components. Navigator 6 is supposed to contain an integrated AOL Instant Messenger and porobably some other features that AOL thinks will give it the leg up on IE5 (aside from a bigger version number!).
Navigator 5 is most likely the version number for the plain-vanilla Mozilla browser without the bells and whistles. Ultimately, this is a dead project since only a minority (mainly Slashdot readers) would choose the plain version over the tricked-out Navigator 6...
I would like to make the comment that Netscape 6 is going beta in 25 days, not Mozilla. They are similar, but aren't the same. Mozilla still has a while to go before it hits beta (my guess). It's Netscape, not Mozilla!!! Anyone can release anything based on Mozilla and call it what they want, thus the case with Netscape.
Native widgets were not flexible enough for CSS1/2. They had to write their own widget, and why keep the native libraries for what? Scrolling? It's clearly better in the long run to just eat the development time, and write your own platform indepedent widget rather than keep 4 native widgets, while implementing your own. The skinnablity of Mozilla wasn't probaly that difficult to add concidering they had to write their own widget within specifications anyway.
:-( This hurts.
/. and it just died from all the select objects that loaded on the page.
,dreams as Mozilla desperately hacks a last attempt at a good browser?
I am doing some contract work just developing an intranet. FreeBSD/Apache/Php4/PostgreSQL For the server platform. (I need triggers MySQL people!)
My heartache comes in when I have to select a client. You see there is not much of a choice honestly. I can pick Netscape 4.x Which has somewhat lacking support for a LOT of goodies I like to use. Just standard CSS/DHTML/HTML4.0 that it cant even handle. And on the scripting side VBScript seems to play the nicest out of all scripting languages. It stops me from having to change coding mindframes when im doing VB/Delphi work.
The point is If you pick something IE4 is the way to go. Ive encountered some *nasty* problems with IE 4 and 5 and some Nasty problems with NS 4.x. Im at a rock and a hard place because they will be using this app for the next 4 to 5 years locking them into an investment with IE. What can I do I need to make money and im not gonna sacrifice some useability features AND time coding to make it work with Netscape I refuse.
I think this is happening a whole lot in RAD application development projects. It also locks people inevtiably into a windows platform when you throw ActiveX and stuff closer tied to windows.
I think I would jump on the Mozilla 6 band wagon Immediately if they could really put up some stable competition. But Ive used it and its crap. I tried to moderate on
*sigh* Im watching some fairly good dreams become just that
Jeremy
> I thought Netscape 5 was coming soon
m l
Netscape 5 was out a *long* time ago. It was the original Open Source Netscape that went to mozilla.org. They never released it. They simply scrapped it and started from scratch with Gecko.
Note that this was all covered just over a month ago:
http://slashdot.org/articles/00/02/12/0827237.sht
The only news is the specific release date. In February, they simply said that they would launch it in the "Spring". Being that today is Spring, it's nice of them to give a specific time frame now.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
If you want to help, and own a Mac, mozilla.org could really do with your services testing each daily build. This is vital, as each build must be checked for basic functionality before the tree can reopen so people can go on working. We have enough Linux and Windows people, but no Mac people. This means that some days, the reopening of the tree is delayed an hour or more while someone is found from inside Netscape.
So, if you have a Mac and the spare time (under an hour, if all goes well), please come to irc.mozilla.org at 8am PST (ish), 4pm GMT in channel #smoketest.
Gerv
I am the KeyMaster!
XUL!!!
just couldn't resist...
//Phizzy
"Most European technology just isn't worth our stealing," -- Former CIA chief James Woolsey, referring to Echelon
Is it just me or did that article sound like a press release straight from netscape with no effort put in to remove the mindless netscape drivel in order to create a balanced article? Whats Next?
Yahoo Reports
Microsoft Corp has announced that Bill Gates has ascended to the right hand of the God today. This ascendence took place at the Gazeebo of the Rock located in the heart of Microsoft's Redmond campus. Microsoft urges its shareholders not worry about the loss of the chairman since he will reportedly descend from heaven with the divine inspiration for all future MS products. First among these will be IE 6.0 which, in a stunning announcement from MS, is going to be released to beta testers in 24 days.
CEO Steve Ballmer replied to all questions about the new product at a press conference saying, "IE6 will be a new paradigm in web browsers. It will be a cadillac of browsers, large and roomy with many features." When asked about some of these magnificent features Ballmer replied by saying, "Ummm... well... It has a wonderful soothing blue screen which appears at regular intervals to calm the user and prevent them from over-working themselves. We will also be including that cute paperclip into IE because everyone loves it so much."
Confirmation of divine intervention in Microsoft's product line was made by Pope John Paul II as he stood on a pile of unrelated money. The Pope was reported as saying "Direct divine intervention is the only thing that could give Microsoft high quality products." The pope then returned to writing his next sermon on his Jesux workstation.
Source: Microsoft Corporation
So far I've gotten all my Karma from telling people they are wrong... :)
Internet Explorer works and is compliant with all but the latest W3C standards
:)
:-)
Forgot to mention this in my first reply
Here's what happens in the real world when browsers collide in W3C standards testing:
Click here for test results
As you can see, last September's version of Mozilla completely trounces MSIE 5 (and Opera, and Navigator 4.7, not that that's hard).
Apologies in advance to the page owner if they get Slashdotted
Many people have pointed out how M14 is unstable and how there's still so many bugs in Mozilla. As I've been testing many milestones and nightly builds, I'd like to tell a few things about how Mozilla has developed.
First of all. Don't run that M14 milestone any more. Go and download a nightly build and give it a try. If it crashes or has annoying bugs, report them and download a new one a few days later. Some builds are really keepers. They are nice and stable. Some builds may have more bugs.
There's also been lots of improvements in Mozilla. M12 or M13 choke on Slashdot. Incremental table rendering was a nightmare. A long Slashdot page could take minutes. But in the beginning of this year Netscape got it right. Slashdot is loading nicely and most pages I often visit work perfectly. Actually I use Mozilla way more than Netscape 4 already.
Someone also got moderated to 5 - insightful for bashing Mozilla's skins. It's pretty weird as he really didn't give any hard facs. It was just opinions. Well Mozilla is really skinnable. You can make Mozilla act and look like whatever you want. And it's not only about looks, it's also about functionality. And the most important is that thanks to skins Mozilla is really cross platform. The bonus is that we don't have to wait for Linux ports or curse the differences between platforms. Mozilla will really be the same on Win32, Linux, Mac, BSD, you name it. And when there's tens of different skins for Mozilla after a year, there should be absolutely no reason not to like skins.
Memory footprint and speed? The newsgroups are slow and Mozilla still eats a bit too memory. But I can remember when the browser's scrolling had a one second delay and the whole UI was sticky. Now it's really fast at least on Win32. So what makes you think that those slow parts won't be fixed?
I'm absolutely positive that Mozilla will be a success.
It's quite obvious you haven't tried any of the nightly builds or the milestone releases. If you had, you'd know that mozilla is fully compliant with CSS1 and html. CSS2 compliancy is partial, but it's better than microsoft's incorrect implimentation.
As for "slow performance," optimization is at the bottom of the list, behind getting things feature-complete and getting to zarro boogs. Besides, mozilla _is_ fast. But you haven't tried it, remember?
As for "inevitable crashes," I dare you to state that IE never crashes. I also dare you to say that _beta_ software never crashes. Besides, mozilla doesn't crash that much. But you haven't tried it.
As for bugs, there is a massive public database that anyone can access to report bugs. Several of the bugs I have reported have been fixed, and several more are being worked on. Again, this is old hat to mozilla regulars... but you haven't tried it.
Hype is one thing, but in this case there are avenues to decide for yourself exactly what the product is like.