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Previous Jackson-Awarded Verdict: US$341M
bumppo writes "This BBC News story hasn't really dented domestic news services aside from AP: seven-year Beirut hostage Terry Anderson and his family were awarded $341 million (including $300 million in punitive damages) against Iran and its Ministry of Information and Security. Ass-kicking Microsoft finder-of-fact and presiding judge Thomas Penfield Jackson oversaw the case, and determined the verdict. "
The judgment against Iran has never been recovered, but it does show a willingness to hit the loser in the pocketbook. According to the Bill Gates Net Worth Page, though, if Judge Jackson were to declare so paltry a figure as sufficient to settle the antitrust suit, Bill could cry all the way to several largish banks.
Um, so the story was about a judgement for Terry Anderson. And the /. reporter links this in . . . to Bill Gates and his personal wealth? WTF. I suppose this was a stab a humor. (Ha ha. Bill Gates is so wealthy he could actually pay the judgement, were is leveled against him. Ha ha.)
/. reporter.
This is just sophmoric.
I mean, thanks for the link to the story. I'm glad to hear Terry Anderson got his day in course. But I don't know what the FUCK this has to do with Microsoft, and frankly, I'm now just a little cautious about the common sense shown by the
Don't forget a few mitigating factors:
I'm glad to see Iran being forced to acknowledge and atone for its extreme and illegal behavior, and if they wish (thru their newly-elected relatively moderate regime) to reengage with western civilization they need to fully pay their penance first.
Your Working Boy,
Sigh. No, we don't all think like this; I'm surprised people make such statements. I might as well say something like, "Are all Argentineans ruthless dictators like that Pinochet guy?" or, "Are all Germans evil Nazis like Hitler?" or, "Do all Russians murder peasants like Stalin did?" Come on people, grow up.
This is offtopic but I think a much better solution than breaking up M$ would be requiring them to publish all specs for their protocols and file formats. This way, we can write players for their new Windows Media format or read and write Office documents.
Well, I'm interested...
It's called new wave but it's just the same.
Really ?
Russians are extremely warlike people, just like Germans but without their sophistication (if German conquer some land usually they will civilize it , with Russians, everything they touch just gets fucked up - witness eastern Europe)
I am sure Shaw didn't even approach the number of people killed during Iranian revolution.
Knowning soviet-inspired revolutions, I am not sure if head count woudn't be higher if Allende stayed at the power.
...but what are they gonna do if Iran decides not to pay? Nuke Theran? Now, we all know the US legal system is silly (How much damages did McDo have to pay for that "too hot coffee"?), but this really proves that America has lost its grip on reality.
Here are a few accounts that need settling:
1) OPEC needs to be broken up by the terms of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Their actions undeniably restrict trade, and they do constitute a monopoly on the crude oil industry, and high gas prices have hurt me. Therefore, it's legal to sue them.
2) India's atmospheric nuclear tests spread several particles-per-billion into the air that I breathe. This will probably cause cancer, so just like power companies have been sued, India should be sued.
3) The Soviet Union's belligerence caused taxes to rise into the stratosphere as a result of programs used to balance their military muscle (strategic defense initiative being a primary culprit). If the USSR weren't so damn belligerent back in the 60s, 70s and 80s, I wouldn't be losing 33% of every paycheck. Based on lost wages, interest, and inflation accrued during and after the inauguration of these programs, the American people have lost billions of dollars. This is obviously grounds for a class-action lawsuit against the Kremlin.
Honestly, the US has enough bad laws without passing totally asinine ones. Sue the lawmakers for being paid with our money to debate issues like the legality of suing foreign governments.
If anything, it is a creative way of repaying foreign debts ("What do you mean we owe you $100 billion? We sued your asses and won! We just deducted our $100 billion damages from what we owed you, so we're even!")
Spot on.
This bullshit of mixing law and politics is crap. How about the Iraqis running a trial of the US and the UK about the sanctions ? They have put CIA people in the arms inspection trials, have blocked every move to get help to people and have caused the deaths of maybe 100 000 people.
Didn't the good judge compare M$ to $tandard Oil?
That resulted in a huge split up of somewhere between 20 and 100 compaines. Some didn't make it after the split up.
That would imply a split up by products and I don't think "Office" would be a product but make a comapnie that only does excel
The breakup should also require all of the compaines to not use the M$ name and branding -- except for one product (like Wince)
Require that there be no contact between brances except over public web site.
Keep in mind the judge isn't after punishing M$ (as much as I would love to see that) but to ensure that they remain competitve while not destroing the tax base that N$ and its workers provde.
I personally can't wait till the oil dries up in the middle east, so we can say "Guess what, you have nothing we want anymore. Enjoy the wasteland you call home."
And it's about that time that they demonstrate to us the power of their nuclear arsenal.
You don't see 300-million dollar punitive damages being paid by the US government when they wrongly imprison someone.
Just another example of US arrogance and stupidity.
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
This is akin to New Zealand fining every driver in the USA for driving on the wrong side of the road.
If the US goverment wasn't so mind-numbingly arrogant as to believe their laws apply everywhere else in the world, they wouldn't piss so many people off, and they wouldn't have so many people gunning for American blood.
The biggest problem is that the administration has to sign off on any lien on the frozen assets before they can be used to pay the judgement. Ironically, the biggest obstacle to Terry Anderson and his family getting their just recompense for Iran's abuses isn't in Tehran, it's in Washington.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
But maybe you're right about the money. Keep in mind financial assets of foreign citizens are indeed seized (with cause!) though.
When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood.
-Tom Jones
The British government detained former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet based on allegations of what Pinoceht did to Spanish citizens in Chile.
There are plenty of precedents for this sort of thing.
Hey watch the stereotyping.
If you assume that everyone on slashdot has the same opinions, it's inevitable that your 'stereotypical slashdotter' will seem like a hypocrite since some of the opinions that you hear on slashdot will contradict one another.
Or it may just be that people on slashdot disagree with each other.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
The French on the other hand, detonated a bomb on a South-Pacific Island (underwater, I believe) a few years go. Water particles have a bit more freedom to travel than particles underground.
"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Dark Helmet (Spaceballs)
If the resulting company were completely cut off from Microsoft, their only hope of survival would be to merge with Tiger Electronics and manufacture a $15 Pokemon ripoff.
Even at that price, they'd have to sell them at KMart and put them on the bottom shelf where the kids would grab them when the parents weren't looking. They would claim interoperability with the GameBoy, but eventually they'd try to hijack the protocols. :-)
Corollary to Moore's Law: The IQ of new computer owners is declining.
Spliting MS up is niethor a fair punishment nor one that would acomplish the most good for the greatest number of users.
Microsoft's plan is to close off protocols and thus force the user to their product. If they are split, how does this stop that practice?
On the other hand, opening protocols allows competiters to compeate. That is a good thing.
Microsoft attemps to sell a systematic and consistent aestitic exeirance when using a PC. The idea of this is not a bad one, the concept makes life easy for the end user. Microsofts breath of products is an atempt to create this. With tools for devolopers, Admins, and other geeks, to present the computer their way. They should be allowed to do this.
Nate Custer
"The poet presents his thoughts festively, on the carriage of rhythm; usually because they could not walk" Nietzsche
You forget to mention that antitrust law is triple the damage. Laywers love those words.
Nate Custer
"The poet presents his thoughts festively, on the carriage of rhythm; usually because they could not walk" Nietzsche
News for nerds?
How?
"The poet presents his thoughts festively, on the carriage of rhythm; usually because they could not walk" Nietzsche
If the level of discussion breaks the surface like many of discussions the here. I would be very interested.
Nate Custer
"The poet presents his thoughts festively, on the carriage of rhythm; usually because they could not walk" Nietzsche
You think none of that behavior has to do with what the stupid user wants?
"The poet presents his thoughts festively, on the carriage of rhythm; usually because they could not walk" Nietzsche
"*none* of the current case had to do with adding things users wanted. Not one line"
Agreed. What I was talking about was providing Office, IE, Windows, NT, MS-VC++, VB is done to create an continuing aesthetic experience for the user. I am saying that MS's practices you outlined do not directly contradict this statement. I am also not saying Microsoft has actually done this, only that they are trying to.
For the most part we are violently agreeing. I agree MS is a Monopoly, and has done things to harm the users. I am simply stating that the best and fair Anti-trust punishment is opening their standards, and file formats. Do you disagree with that point?
Nate Custer
"The poet presents his thoughts festively, on the carriage of rhythm; usually because they could not walk" Nietzsche
But think of all the wonderful code you would deprive the world of! He could not code half as well with only one hand.
Nate Custer
"The poet presents his thoughts festively, on the carriage of rhythm; usually because they could not walk" Nietzsche
well, generally they're 3rd world countries due to having a fucked up government/lack of resources.
I personally can't wait till the oil dries up in the middle east, so we can say "Guess what, you have nothing we want anymore. Enjoy the wasteland you call home."
c.
Mistake or otherwise, 300 innocent people were killed at the hands of the United States military.
Also, the Iranian information and security ministry did not capture Anderson - The Hezbolah did. Iran should definitely be held accountable for allowing organizations such as the Hezobolah to operate within its borders, but they should be held accountable through proper channels. Its absurd to have judges such as Mr Jackson awarding irrationally large sums of money to people - This is a foreign nation, and this is exactly what the Hague is for:)
signature smigmature
- James
I agree. Was this posted just because the judge involved was Thomas Penfield Jackson? I can read this at CNN, Yahoo, ABCNews along with every other major media outlet. Moderate this up.
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- James
That 60 minutes was either outdated, or just wrong:)
:)
The Iranian-United States Claim Tribunal at the hague has sole jurisdiction over the vast majority of the assets the US froze. The US controls only a fraction of those assets, mostly in real estate. The Clinton Administration has no means to block the collection of damages awarded, with the exception of the very small amount in real estate the US controls.
The very idea that a US Judge, without a treaty, could EVER have jurisdiction to grant a person damages from a sovereign nation is absurd! It simply stems from a reactionary US Congress trying to score political points after the Oklahome City Bombing. Nothing more, nothing less, and it demonstrates how stupid our Representatives, Senators, and Judges are.
signature smigmature
- James
Yes, it was shot down accidentally by the US Military. But it was a regularly scheduled flight, in normal commercial flight paths, and did nothing to indicate otherwise. The fault is ALL ours. Period.
Without taking anything away from Terry Anderson and his family, and what they deserve in remuneration, it is just plain TOTAL ARROGANCE on our part to make an award of this magnitude when WE only offered $150 million for a whole planeload of INNOCENT civilians. And remember, the $150 million was what WE OFFERED, not what we were fined in ANY court.
And while the kidnapping of Mr. Anderson was illegal and dispicable, he DID KNOW that he was putting himself at risk when he went to Beirut. The same can not be said for the passengers of the plane. They had no reason to suspect that they were at risk of losing their lives by flying a regularly scheduled commercial flight.
This award is nothing less than an embarassment to all Americans. I would hope that common sense would prevail and the judgement is set aside. WE set the standard for what a human life is worth ($500,000), and the judgement should be scaled back accordingly. And as for punitive damages - the same amount should be used for both cases - $0. Remember - We set the standard!
B) He has no way of collecting the money
C) Whining about too many As and Bs
(This particular post falls into category C, of course.)
Green Monkey
Also spliting Windows OS into separate inbedded, consumer, and corporate companies would encourage sharing of protocals for survival. Doing so would also benefit Linux, UNIX, Be and other OSes. The split off OS companies would also have to rely on 3rd party vendors for development tools if development software were also split into a separate corporation, further reenforcing interoperability. There is a method to my maddness, BAHHAHAHA!
"Open code, in other words, can be a check on state power." -Lawrence Lessig
On top of that I'd force them to release all source code freely to developers for Windows APIs and document formats. Doing this would hut Bill more than any monetary fine could!
"Open code, in other words, can be a check on state power." -Lawrence Lessig
this is insulting to the intelligence of slashdot readers, please remove it from the front page and don't let it happen again.
Don't be mean or my friend Oog will smash your head
There is no way in heck Iran will pay him a cent. So it's just a paper victory. -oktane
Alas, apparently not. There's a whole bunch of legal obstacles before Anderson gets any of that money, and some of them appear insuperable, unless and until the Administration decides that it's not against US diplomatic interests to unfreeze the assets for that purpose. It probably would be a good campaign issue for McCain, but I think there's every reason to believe that Bush would keep the Iranian assets locked up as tightly as Clinton has.
Timothy - this story is not news for nerds, nor is it stuff that matters in our microcosm. Granted, many other people are happy that this man finally got his day in court (it IS a good thing), but come on man. Just because there is some far-fetched correlation between this and Bill Gates's wealth and judge doesn't mean it's /. front-page material. I'm sure the *BSD crowd would like to get more front page publicity - why not actually post software and computer related stories up front, and delegate stuff like this to the back (as *BSD is now)?
Thank you.
And BTW Timothy - care for some hot grits?
All the good discussion is from the ACs.
The hidden standards are only one of the ways the abuse the power to the detriment of consumers.
They also leverage the windows monopoly to the office monopoly, and vice versa.
I don't see any loss to the consumer from office & windows coming from separate companies, and several gains. There would no longer be a reason for the shenanagins with hidden behavior, nor funny pricing agreements. Furthermore, all the incentive for the windows group to make progress would continue to exists, and larger than before: they'd have reasons to work with other developers, too.
Where I join the minority is I also want the source code to windows licenesed, to produce competing versions, with some provision for synchronization of features.
(No, I don't mean open-source it; the gov't doesn't have the legal power to do this without paying for it.)
I am a lawyer, but this isn't legal advice. If you need legal advice, see an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction.
Given the findings of fact, there is no way, other than flat-out concession by the government, that there *won't* be a finding of anti-trust violation.
The findings are only factual, yes. But this particular set is equivalent to, in a capital murder case, the jury returning "The defendant laid in wait, according to his plan, and when the deceased came along, tortured him before killing him.
The only possible legal conclusion is murder in the first degree with special circumstances. To use microsoft's phrasing, it's only "one step in a long process of litigation," but all that's left is to choose between life without parole and capital punishment.
hawk, esq.
I am a lawyer, but this is not legal advice. If need legal advice, see
an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction.
An embassy is foreign soil, over which the guest nation is sovereign. Taking the embassy was an act of war.
Given that situation, the normal protections for Iranian proprty in the U.S. don't hold, and the frozen assets might well be used to sastisfy at least part of the award.
hawk, esq.
her. This is only sensible behavior when there is common ownership, as each monopoly gives up part of its profits to do so.
Under separate ownership, it is no longer in the interest of the windows monopoly to help out the office monopoly at its own expense, and vice versa--the office folks will start demanding access the way the competitors do now.
I was shut down by an ISP in March because I wasn't using Microsoft Windows. And this was 15 years after the first antitrust suit was brought against Microsoft. They've been trying to break up Microsoft for 15 years. In 1997 people started paying attention to it because of the internet, but these stories have never amounted to any improvement for 15 years and they won't in 15 more years.
How can a US judge which means nothing to anyother country on the planet wave a finger at a group 1000's of km's away?
Easy: simply force to pay the damages out of frozen Iranian assets.
You might also ask, how does the EU get off trying to suppress competition from American companies, or to try and force American companies to comply with EU regulations?
This act is not as foolish or hollow as you think, if Terry Anderson (rightly, IMAO) decides to pursue those frozen assets.
And don't put anything past the US: remember Noriega?
Your Working Boy,
How could they complain about sanctions? How can you sue someone for refusing to do business with you?
While it's likely none of this cash will ever be seen, I don't see the similarity: Torturing an American citizen is one thing, but sanctions are basically refusing to deal with someone. Could you sue someone for refusing to trade something with you personally?
- Jeff A. Campbell
- VelociNews (http://www.velocinews.com)
- Jeff
Here we have a prime example of the US trying to impose its legal system on the rest of the world. When some poor sod in scandinavia gets hit by the US over hacking, there's outcry. Whip up enough emotion and it suddenly becomes OK.
:v)
Whatever the merits of the case, US laws only apply inside the US - even if the US has passed a law to say otherwise.
Vik
What is the point of this verdict? Is there any way he will ever be able to collect?
Did the Iranians even contest the trial? Perhaps there is someone reading this who knows if a county's assets can be confiscated as payment for a judegement in a civil trial? I doubt it, and I'd say that's about the only way he's ever going to get any money from them.
I think it's good that a judge determined that Iran is guilty; however does anybody here really think that Iran cares?
... :-) , :-(
Iran is currently embroiled in a bitter power struggle as the reformist forces fight the entrenched funamentalist/conservative clergy which has ruled the country since the revolution. Mind you, this is a country where numerous intellectuals, publishes and otherwise dissenting people have been killed, imprisoned or simply disappeared. I don't think they care about a verdict handed down by the 'great satan' (although that's a qualification that isn't heard much anymore these days).
Any spare money Iran has probably goes towards their efforts at acquiring nuclear capability. I've read rumors that the only way Pakistan was able to finance it's nuclear program was by selling (nuclear) know-how to Iran. I don't really think anybody should have nukes, but those two countries certainly shouldn't. Why is it that 3rd world countries rather have nukes than well fed people?
Boy, we live in a wonderful world
This article should not be on slashdot. Just because the judge judged the MS case does not mean we should be interested in him. Hell, he did not even invent the internet like Al Gore.
But seriously, I'd really like to see a news site set up using the slashdot engine. Is there one already ? Is anyone interested in setting one up ? Jon Katz, are you listening ? Could be the WELL II.
This judgment comes in response to a bill passed by Congress a couple of years ago allowing for victims of terrorism to sue the sponsoring government. Congress was well aware that few governments would actually pay damages, so the imagined method of collection was to seize assets that are on US-controlled soil. The only problem with this is that it tends to ignore the larger picture: right now, our relations with Iran are beginning to get better. But were Jackson to send federal marshals in to seize Iranian-controlled assets, our long term relationship with that nation would be severely damaged. This might be the correct thing to do from a justice standpoint, but would be shortsighted as far as long-term diplomacy is concerned.
- Rev.
Microsoft haas supposedly agreed to settle. See http://netscape.marketwatch.com/source/blq/netscap e/archive/20000324/news/current/msft.nsp for details
Romanes eunt domus? People called Romanes, they go the 'ouse? It says Romans go home. No it doesn't. What's Latin fo
OK this is just stoopid. How can a US judge which means nothing to anyother country on the planet wave a finger at a group 1000's of km's away?
If a Brittsh judge told the FBI to pay Jimmy Pop Ali $500Million. The FBI would just say:
"The heck with you. We don't have to listen to your laws".
So why should Iran be any differen? Does the USA really think that they are so important that their laws apply to the planet? Are all Americans to obnixious that they believe that an Iran gov't group will actually listen to Jackson?
It's attitudes like this that makes me think twice about the "Great American Society".
Assuming relations between Iran and the US do continue to warm (I'm sure they will). I don't know if the government of Iran can legally be held responsible by an American Federal judge, and the US take that money (or any money) based on his ruling alone.
I'm sure many countries could hold the US Gov responsible for their actions during the cold war (and there is plenty). The Shaw of Iran alone killed and imprisoned thousands of Iranians (I had a teacher who lived there then) alone, and the US supported him amidst the Iranian's wishes for a different leader. Can their courts hold our Gov responsible?
I can't see the US gov giving any of that money to Mr. Anderson without Iran's consent first, it would be a terrible example to set.
The problem is the State Departnent is currently making diplomatic overtures to the inreasingly-moderate Iranian governent right now, and doesn't want to rock the boat by subtracting such huge sums from their frozen assets. But it's quite obvious that Anderson has had his day in court, has won a judgement, and by all means deserved it.
When I'm singing a ballad and a pair of underwear lands on my head, I hate that. It really kills the mood.
-Tom Jones
Now here's a novel punishment - Judge Jackson could send Bill Gates to Iran as part of his punishment. The Iranian authorities could cut off one of his hands for stealing market share from other companies!
hoser: Slashdot reader since 1987.
What's so arrogant about this decision, handed down by our favorite idiot of a judge, is that, aside from the fact that this is quite obviously out of US Jurisdiction, and should be handled by the US - Iran Claims Tribunal @ The Hague, is that when the United States Navy shot down an Iranian passenger plane carrying 300 Yes, count them, 290 to be exact, 290 civilian passengers, the Claims Tribunal awarded Iran less than 150 million dollars. And these people are DEAD. that's but 500,000$ to the families of the 300 dead civilians on that flight! But Judge Jackson, who has already proven himself to be a stupid, stupid man, sees fit to award a single man more than 600 times the amount of money that each of the families with dead husbands and wives got. And the man in the US is still alive! It is judges like Mr. Jackson that make me want to spit on the US justice system. The arrogance and utter stupidity that men such as Jackson display is atrocious and it amazes me to no end that the major media outlets don't pick up on things such as this and RAIL on people like Judge Jackson. Thankfully though, this will help to show the public how DUMB Judge Jackson truly is when they hear about his findings of 'fact' etc.
signature smigmature
- James
Right here in River City...
He was released from Iran,
That rhymes with Debian...
That stands for Linux!
Now for something somewhat RELEVANT...
A recommended Good Book(tm)
(it has nothing to do with OS/2 btw...)
http://www.os2hq.com/articles/seven.htm
A book about the current employment situation among IT workers
--AROS is an Open Source AmigaOS clone, and source compatible with AmigaOS! Try the x86 build at http://www.aros.org
Who cares if Judge Jackson happened to hand down the decision. Is everything that Judge Jackson does now news for nerds? Just because he was fooled into believing by the Justice Department and 19 states that Microsoft is so terrible?
It amazes me that people are so quick to agree with Judge Jackson in the first place. This is SLASHDOT DOT ORG. The home of an angry mob of anti-intrusive government pundits. SLASHDOT - Where EVERYONE is adamantly opposed to any decision dealing with software being made in a courtroom - unless the court battle is against Microsoft. The hypocrisy is amazing.
But I digress. Slashdot uses the motto News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters. They also used to use "Ever feel like you're not getting the whole story?"
Well this isn't a nerdy story, and we got the whole story at CNN hours before it was here. THIS is why we need a means of RATING ARTICLES. We don't necessarily need to moderate articles, but we need a means of collectively giving an article the THUMBS DOWN. Anyway, JMTC
Short of a breakup [and that possibility seems remote at this point, given the government's language lately], the worst thing that could happen to Microsoft is for Judge Jackson to hand down a verdict that Microsoft violated anti trust laws (which is going further than the "finding of fact" he released last year).
Regardless of the relative size of any fines or other restrictions on Microsoft's business practices, such a ruling would open Microsoft to enormous amounts of follow-on litigation. Litigation means legal bills, and while MSFT may have the dough to beat ANYone in court, they certainly don't have the resources to beat EVERYone... That's mentioned toward the end of this CNNfn story.
Marc Siry || interactive media professional, motorcycle enthusiast ||
Does anyone else feel that their tax dollars were wasted in this?
I appreciate that Mr. Anderson went through unconceivable pain and all. However even the judge says : ``the likelihood that any award will ever be paid is minimal.'' I can't even see where a federal judge has any jurisdiction in a case against another nation who did not (nor needs to) participate. I think we all can see that Mr. Anderson and his family went through a terrible situation. Did this do anything other than point out a fact we already know?
As for timothy's comments that this is the same judge that is dealing with the MS trial, I don't see any point there. Judges don't' just preside over one case at a time, I'm sure there's lots of cases he is or may handle. I can't see any reason one would be connected to the other, nor should they be.
Come on!! Is this not stretching the limits of on-topic'ness? What's next? The guy who sells Bill Gates coffee in the morning's mother-in-law dies?? --- evel aka matt