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Meeting With Netpliance
Kalin R. Harvey writes: "Last week I wrote an article
which dealt with the i-opener net appliance from Netpliance
that everyone was so excited
about hacking last month. The response from the community
has been great, a lot of people really liked it. So did Netpliance it seems. I was recently contacted by their CTO, Marc
Willebeek-LeMair, and asked to meet with the company at their headquarters
"to brainstorm about the various issues" raised in the article. He described
my article as "intriguing", and I found the message to be very positive
overall; it means they have been listening. It means there is a good
chance that they want to do the right thing.
We haven't set a firm date yet, but are hammering out the details now.
What I want is to get from the /. community and the i-opener-hacker community
is feedback. Put aside the bad blood that has been brewing between the open source community and the company since they decided to thwart the hack. Look honestly at the situation and consider the issues involved.
What would you say to the decision-makers at Netpliance if
you had the chance?"
1. Give us a "real" price for the original system, a price that assumes it will never earn any revenue for you via a user account.
/. nick or p/w.)
2. Consider creating and selling a "pre-hacked" system that includes a hard drive.
3. "Open" the unit (fully document it) so that external peripherals may more easily be connected and used.
4. Uh, er, add a PC-Card (PCMCIA) slot? (Mainly to make adding Ethernet easier.)
Anything more, I feel, will be "guilding the lily", taking the system far from the current design, and thus possibly losing the benefits of using the same production runs for multiple purposes.
My ideal use for a "hacked" system would be as a convenient Web browsing system to have on an end table, conveniently available to use during TV commercials.
From the basic system, here are the hacks I'd like to add:
1. Wireless networking.
My main system is in another room, connected to a cable modem. It has more horsepower and connectivity than the i-Opener, so I'd like to take advantage of it as easily as possible. While it is no problem running A/C to where I'd put the i-Opener, getting Ethernet there would be a pain.
2. InfraRed I/O.
Possibly a full IrDA port, but anything that would allow the iOpener to easily control my TV and VCR.
3. X-10 Firecracker Interface.
I've just started automating my home, one lamp and appliance at a time, and having convenient centralized control and access in the living room would be convenient.
4. Remote Keyboard with Integrated Pointer.
RF is preferred, but IR will do. I don't need the i-Ioener screen to be in front of me, but the keyboard pretty much has to. (Unless, of course, some future i-Opener were to include a touch screen or a simple pointer device integrated in to the bezel of the display.)
I could do all of this with a retired laptop (perfectly capable laptops can be had for under $500), but they lack, well, style.
While I would never buy the i-Opener service for myself, my computer-phobic father is turning 70 this summer, and I intend to give him an i-Opener to finally get him online in the easiest way possible (he already detests the idea of WebTV).
An excellent product, with the added bonus of being emminently hackable!
-BobC
(The guy who never remembers his
IANAL, but since they charged you for something you never received, that sounds like a case of fraud. Why not file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission and see what happens? I think most businesses will tend to fear the government more than other businesses. :-)
It's really simple actually. Give us a way to pay a fair price for a modifiable unit, with no bundled Internet service, and we'll buy the thing.
... and i-Opener has plenty of possibilities!
;)
;) and some of our providers can act as importers or European Partners or whatsoever.
... just anyone with a need for a small front-end for their server applications.
Yes, at work, we are moving from character-based apps. to HTML-based apps. This way, we could use an i-Opener derivative as our platform.
We are talking on 500 to 1,500 units here. Serious bussiness.
The requiremets would be an i-Opener with those add-ons:
-Ethernet Card (10/100)
-Bootable Hard Disk Drive (1Gb its OK)
-A way to install any desired OS (Linux/Win-dos would be primary choices) and a browser (Mozilla?)
-Key mapping instructions to links their "unique" keys to our applications (help, mail, web, home...)
-Mouse port
-A range of CPUs to choose from (w/ or w/o MMx, 3D instructions, 200 to ??? MHz
-Nice price
I guess all this is pretty easy to bundle to any i-Opener. I mean, Netpliance can easily substitute the modem for a ethernet card, attach a 2.5" HDD to the IDE port and provide a Y-cordline for a regular KB+Mouse... ot their KB (without the pizza key, please!).
BTW, we are based at good-old Barcelona-Europe (yes, that's why my english looks wierd sometimes
How many corporations wouldn't go for a cheap "i-O-Client"? Not only for HTML but any C/S application will work great with it. You have all the Hospitals, Small bussiness,
I will appreciate if someone can convince Netpliance that they're in the path of a big-bucks bussiness. We are willing to buy some!
Thank you in advance,
Sinner Falcatas
(remove NOSPAM to email me)
MaDuIxA PoWeR -----> Down with Phone Monopoly, Down with Cable Abuse http://maduixa.8m.com Linux Machine # 38068
Get real.
First, only requiring three months of service is asking for trouble. After paying the $65 for three months of service, whether I use it or not, I can take the hardware and run. Netpliance gets $165, I own the hardware free and clear. Now some people have estimated the cost of this box at around $300. I'm not very good at math, but I think that means Netpliance loses $135.
Second, ISP service costs money, even at wholesale. If you get it for $5, and resell it at $22, that's $17 revenue. To make up the $201 difference between $99 loss-leader price and $300 cost, your customer has to stick around at least 12 months. That's right, a whole year. (I had to get out the calculator for that.) The service contract only requires three months.
So what should Netpliance do?
Netpliance should figure out a reasonable markup to the actual manufacturing cost of the i-opener and then sell it at that price in a completely hackable version. Maybe even include one of those laptop IDE cables and a hard drive mount inside the case, so it's all ready to go.
Netpliance should then sell the same i-opener for $99, with a service contract that requires at least as much service as will generate the required amount of revenue to bring in a similar amount of money. Maybe a little more, since it's spread out over time. A 12-18 month contract seems appropriate.
Netpliance should then sit back, relax and let us hackers get to what we do best: hacking. Watch the ideas we come up with and our prototypes and maybe even buy some of the ideas, or even hire some of the hackers, for future products.
---
How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
I know that at least 25 of these 28 machines were to have hard drives hooked up to them, I don't know if Netpliance already has the money from circuit city, or if cc is just holding on to it ... all I know is Netpliance is going to see all their income DROP like a brick through glass when these I-openers do come back into stock.
In my opinion Netpliance should have done the following:
1: sell the I-opener at $99 to those who sign up for at least 2 years of service.
2: sell the i-opener for $149 to those who sign up for 1 year of service
3: sell the i-opener at $199 to those who don't sign up for service
that way they will make some money off their products, instead of knowing that they will have to dig themselves out of a BIG BLACK HOLE in the coming 6 months ... put everything back to the way it should be ... heck .. I'd pay $199 for one, it's still better than the old Packard Bell we have sitting on our shelves for $450 ...!
DaiTengu
--------
Damage Inc. BBS
It's very cool that Netpliance wants to work with us, and if I had extra money, I might buy a $600 device just to affirm that. But realistically, how many of you would really buy one of these at a price allowing them to make a profit?
--
As someone who has had an I-Opener on order since the last slashdot article, I am dissapointed that Netpliance has taken up such a hostile attitude towards the hackers who are essentially developing other Netpliance product lines. I've been watching an I-Opener message board and there are people doing marvelous things with hackable (and some non-hackable) I-Os. A popular use is to mount the device in a car and use it as a GPS, MP3 player and/or digital dashboard. The "hackers" (term used loosely, no flame por favor) are going out of their way by a long-shot to modify these devices for general use, sometimes costing hundreds of Altarian dollars.
I believe that if Netpliance offered a slightly more expensive general-use I-Opener they would be astounded at the uses the community will come up with, and the ingenuity of the geeks they're trying so hard to thwart may become a key ally in the company's longevity
Would that be a C-to-B business model?
CapnBryI will immediately by the set as a cheap X term for my home if:
1. It has the rumored non-loss-leader price (around 300$).
2. It has no stupid ISP contracts. Yeah right, what the fsck will this ISP offer me here across the pond.
3. It is extensible and has full specs and no M$ fee hanging on it.
4. And if they sell it in Europe of course.
The market is very hungry for decent cheap thin clients. At the same time the cheapest offerings for now are above 1000 which just makes you go and buy a laptop or a PC.
So why don't these people get a clue and start selling a separate hacker/thin-client pack.
Because thin clients have their place more in home than in the office. I do not want to hear any fscking fan and hard disk noise in my room. There is an equipment rack for that purpose...
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
Browsing through the netpliance site, I came across two pieces of information that together make me worry...
From their development job listings:
Data Mining Developer
From their add-ons FAQ page:
Q: Can I connect external storage devices, such as a ZIP drive, via the USB port?
A: Not at this time. Everything on your i-opener is backed up on our network. (emphasis added)
So... someone with an iOpener contract: does Netpliance mention the fact that your data will be backed up on their network, or contain any mention of the fact that Netpliance may be mining either your backed-up data or data recorded about your network usage (browsing, email) habits? It occurs to me that this may be one reason they are so adamant about requiring people to use their ISP service with the iOpener...
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
What I want in an NC is to have the least clutter. I'd like to be able to just plug it in to power and be networked. I don't care about huge network or CPU performance.
I'd like to see these things adaptible as NCs with wireless networking (perhaps by having a PC card slot) and a small amount of persistent storage, enough to boot a stripped down Linux or BSD.
Here are some applications I'd see for such a setup.
Trade shows information kiosks.
Interactive supermarket and mall directories.
Low end word processing and Internet access workstations.
Interactive museum displays.
Cybercafe terminals.
Warehouse and point of sale application terminals.
I'd like to put one or more of these in every store and restaurant in my nice little suburb's main street, and have a town commerce network with information on stores, sales going on, amenities and services.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
It's true that some people saw this as a way to get a $300 PC. ($99 plus hard drive, etc.,) but I think there's another camp which i-opener can reach and make a bit more money. That would be those of us who, like myself, are perfectly willing to spend the money required to get a low-end PC to use as a network terminal,etc in our house, but don't want to stick a big ugly vanilla mini-tower, a 50lb 15" CRT and a rat's nest of cables in every room.
:^) -- will turn around and plunk down $2500 for IBM ThinkPad so they can install and run Red Hat on it.
I'm willing to bet that over 75% of Slashdot readers don't buy Dell, or Compaq, or Gateway - they prefer to go to Fry's, or order online from their favorite distributor, and build the exact configuration they want. It's almost a matter of pride. But some of those same people -- not the starving students, of course
Why? Because they have no other alternative that meets their requirements (i.e. small, lightweight, portable.) You *can't* build your own laptop from off-the-shelf components.
This i-opener gives people the opportunity to build *their own* network terminal, with the features they want, with a form-factor that no one else will sell them. *THAT* is the untapped market which i-opener can make money from, if they are smart and nimble enought to take advantage of it.
A couple of quick things:
1. The cat is out of the bag. Forget about putting it back in. This being said, the confluence of Netpliance hardware and Open source opens up many possibilities:
2. Market two versions of your product: one is your QNX-based model for folks who want easy 'net access. Second version is an "hackable" model. Make it a bit more expensive, perhaps, but let the hackers be hackers and sell them the machine!. Then let them hack all they want and incorporate the best changes in the next generation.
3. Target other markets: schools, colleges and universities could use cheap machines with standardized, open-source OS installed. Target large corporations, who need a computer on every desk, and sell them these machines. With Linux or one of the BSDs, you can overturn the Microsoft monopoly.
4. Penguins are your best friends.... Daemons may be a little bit more controversial, but they are also cute. =)
Welcome to Open Source!
The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
Do you think that this is open source? I'm interested in your opinions. Here's something that I just sent out...
Dear Netpliance,
I think it is great that you are embracing the open source community by
announcing the Developers Corner. I am glad to see the Developer 100
Pilot Program announced, but I feel that it doesn't support an "open
development" process that you describe.
The open source community works at solving problems by working together,
collaborating with each other. People can pitch in and work on part of a
project that interests them and/or is their area of expertise. People
work together on projects, not because they are given incentive to do so
(i.e. free I-openers), but because their project interests them.
The two main problems with the 100 Pilot Program is that...
1. It provides the wrong incentive for people to contribute to the open
source movement. I've already talked to many friends who say that they
will apply to the program just to receive a free I-opener. You can't
expect many contributions from someone who are in it just for a free
I-opener.
Instead you need to target the people who are actually interested in
developing things. One way to do this would be to devote resources to
webpages or discussion forums about specific areas of development. By
doing so, Netpliance would also be able to focus the development that
was going on. Hosting these webservices would probably be cheaper then
giving away 100 I-openers, and the developers would do the work of
creating the sites/BBS's/whatever as they were needed.
A good example of a company devoting resources to an open-source
development is Netscape. Go to http://mozilla.org/ and see what they
have done to rewrite the Netscape source code. Netscape 6.0 is a product
of the Mozilla project; we will have to see for ourselves if it is a
good thing or not. (B.T.W. Netscape 6.0 is much smaller then it's past
versions. I smell an embeddable web browser!)
2. By limiting the number to 100 people and then making it difficult for
others to work with their I-openers, you are severly hindering an open
development process. There are already close to 100 websites on the
internet about modifying the I-opener and the number of people working
with these units is much greater.
I'm sure that you've already recieved over 100 emails from people asking
to recieve an I-opener to turn it into something or other. Once these
are given out this will prevent developers with potentially good ideas
from being able to work on thier ideas.
As I have already said, a better solution would be to host discussion
forums and support the development from the inside. This would better
for Netpliance economically, allow Netpliance to dynamically control
development, and probably give Netpliance a better relationship with
it's open source developers.
Thank You,
Ben
Reading the comments people have posted, a common theme is "Just add [foo] to it". I think this is the wrong approach -- if you want [foo], add it yourself; if the specs are open, someone should be able to figure it out. The most attractive feature of the i-opener is it's price -- start adding more hardware, and you are going to drive the price way up. IMHO, a reasonable price for a hackable i-opener, as-is (or as-was, before March 20th) is around $300-$350. Any significant changes to the design will involve significant re-tooling charges at the factory.
Now, if these folks are smart, they'll make an i-opener 2, which would have 10baseT ethernet, more expansion options, and a slightly bigger case , maybe with an (empty) 2.5 or 3.5 drive bay. They don't really have to add any new components -- just give us the headers to attach our own, we'll do the rest. They can then take the best ideas and sell them as after-market add-ons, to get some additional revinue out of the beasties. They can also make money by selling an i-opener linux distro, optimized to work on their hardware.
An expandable i-opener, with ethernet & documented expansion headers, could go for as much as $500, and maybe a little more. Price is a serious issue with this -- overprice it and it will fail; find a good price point and it will become a standard, filling the gap between a full-blown PC and a palmtop. There is definatly a market to be tapped here, guys -- don't blow your chances to dominate a new, untapped market by being stupid and/or geedy.
(And, btw, reexamine your distribution model -- using only Circuit City is going to hurt you in the long run. Either use the Dell/Gateway model and only sell direct to the consumer, or put the things everywhere.
"The axiom 'An honest man has nothing to fear from the police'
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
The only beef I have with them is what they've done with their TOS. Changing the contract _after_ the units have been sold is a bad mistake, IMHO. If they needed to change their agreements, then it should be done professionally, honoring their previous sales. It's bad business to do otherwise.
I hope NetPliance has everything together now. (sob story ahead-> I bought an IOpener on March 12, was billed for $99 plus shipping on March 12, and never plugged it in.
They added a $19.11 charge to my credit card 2 weeks later, and I went through a truly awful phone call with them whereupon they asserted they could charge me for things based on their company policy.
(they changed their TOS well after I bought the machine).
Discover gave me a temporary credit and are currently "investigating" the situation. I imagine it will go like this: "NetPliance, why did you charge our customer for something he did not order?", "Discover, it is our company policy to do so." "NetPliance, please hand over your merchant account."
So, for me, tell NetPliance the basics of how money works. Remind them, for their own good, that they need some sort of agreement from the customer before executing a transaction. Yea, remind them that they cannot charge me money just because someone at NetPliance assumed they could. etc.
I fear them.
The above comments and the URL below are mutually exclusive.
Red Mercury, LLC