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Canadian Gov't Keeps Detailed Citizen Database
Byron Sonne wrote with word that Canada's Privacy Commissioner Bruce Phillips, in his annual report to Parliament, today criticized a national database kept by the Human Resources Department, calling it "tantamount to a citizen profile."
From the article: "The "extraordinarily detailed database" holds a dossier on almost every person in Canada with as many as 2,000 pieces of information about each person's education, marital status, ethnic origin, mobility, disabilities, income tax, employment and social assistance history."
Fear not -- Human Resources Minister Jane Stewart says that "[a]ll the information is secure, it's encrypted." Interesting, given that apparently blase attitude toward the propriety of keeping such a database in the first place, that Canada has a privacy commissioner at all -- but from the sound of this a fortunate thing it does.
He specified female when he said "blonde". That is one of the few English adjectives which has gender. (Probably because it's not really English.) "Blond" is the masculine form.
HTH. HAND.
2 years ago I bought a second hand Alfa Romeo. A year later, just before the car reached 5 years (which is a time when the car must be checked by law in the Netherlands), I received a little letter from a Ford dealer telling me that I could change my Alfa to a Ford. I called this dealer and asked him how on Earth did he know my name, address, type and age of car I owned. His answer was incomplete but as far as I understood, there is a database of all car owners and their car somewhere in the Netherlands that can be used by dealers to spam you. Now, I never agreed to be in this DB, in fact, I did not know about it.
How many databases like this one are we in? How many of these are legal under EU law? These are questions I want answers to!
I'll do it for cheesy poofs.
Request HRDC information
.. oh and you have to pay a minimum of CAD$5 to get access to that information.
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In the US, the FBI has a huge database with pictures from almost 90% of the population.
The Big Brother is coming.
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The department (Human Resources) relies on staff professionalism to prevent misuse of the database. Doesn't that make you feel better?
The Privacy Commissioner reccomends "a fixed shelf-life for data, penalties for misuse, strict control on collection and legislative changes to set out the research mandate of the database."
Currently, the data is never erased, and the Human Resources Dep't is not under the same strict provisions about the usage and collection of this data as Statistics Canada. (the other guys who collect a lot of data).
I agree that it's not weird information to collect, it's just that in this particular case, there doesn't seem to be much that protects the usage of the database other than "staff professionalism"... oh goody.
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I hope you're not pretending to be evil while secretly being good. That would be dishonest.
Holland, as well as Belgium and France, have completely de-centralised collecting and storing data on their citizens. This is because it was centralised to some fashion when the nazis took over and used those lists to weed out undesirables. The nazis seized each community's records, and then slowly but surely weeded out Jews, Gypsies, Gays, Philosophers, left leaning ex-politicians, Clergy, students who dropped out of school (possibly to join resistance), and the list goes on. After the war, it was made as difficult as possible for anyone in charge of the country to efficiently target any single group. It might start in one area, but that would alert others who could then take a counter-action to save lives.
/. and usenet.
:-)
Large random acts of distruction happen very rarely, and if it takes a little extra time to comb through some local tax and phone records to compile a list of people in a neighborhood, then we'll accept that extra bit of inefficiency. It is much better for a government to be inefficient than to give up all your privacy, and perhaps your life, because someone was able to dredge through a nationwide database and decide you are now undesirable.
I think the missing count is way down today, as they manually strike names off of various lists compiled in haste. But the body count is rising slowly as search efforts continue. Almost everyone in my town knows someone or of someone affected by the blast, it's sad, really.
There are several quotes floating around by various famous people who fought for freedom. Some americans, french, indians, south africans, and others who watched the horribly criminal actions of rogue governments who were a little too efficient in their enforcement of unfair laws. Look around, you'll see them as poster's sigs on
the AC
The upside of having no central tax database is that many people move to a new district every year, because it takes about a year for the tax records to follow them. After 5 or 10 years, the tax authorities will finally catch up, and present a bill for the previous 3 years. YMMV & IANATL
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
You should see a significant decrease in bulk addressed mail, telephone solicitations and suchlike when you follow the Direct Marketing Association's instructions for opting out:
c e.html
:-)
Americans:
http://www.the-dma.org/consumers/consumerassistan
Canadians:
Do Not Mail/Do Not Call Service
Canadian Marketing Association
PO Box 706
Don Mills, ON
M3C 2T6
Fax: 416-391-1237
Also, Canucks can call their local PO and have them stop unaddressed bulk mail deliveries.
Finally, there is a telemarketers do-not-call service for us Canucks. It's a 1-800 number, but I long-ago lost it. I suggest you rip Sprint Canada a new asshole the next time they call you, to the point where they *want* to give you the opt-out number.
*THIS DOES WORK* I receive virtually no bulk mail (some bulk mailers don't belong to the association) and so few telemarketing calls as to be inconsequential.
I've just tried the American DMA's email opt-out thang. Godz willing, I'll see a decrease in spam. Oh, how I hope!
Feel free to make a website telling everyone about this!
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Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
I feel sorry for those poor Canadians when some junk mailer gets hold of the list. Ed McMahon is commin' yer way.
cat database | grep "18 years old, blonde, big boobs, loves Linux" > /dev/me
42 !
If they have a detailed record of my existence, I think I ought to have the right to see it. If I don't have that right, then I'll add this to the growing list of reasons to leave Canada. Other reasons include: o taxes are *crazy* here o I can't make as much money here o gov't is generally much more socialist, doesn't respect individual rights enough o people here continually look to gov't for answers -- to much "entitlement mentality". There are good things about being Canadian too, but right now I'm in a pissy mood :-) -VonKruel
You really think that the U.S. Government doesn't have detailed databases about every citizen? Who are you joking. They probably know what you had for lunch yesterday.
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A good question is -how- is it encrypted? Cyphered with rot13? Frobnicated with 8bit XOR 42? Or something useful?
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script-fu: hash bang slash bin bash
[ approaching AI ]
Having spend 12 months on a co-op job at Humans Resources Development Canada's Ontario Regional Headquarters in the Systems Admin area, I have to agree that their concenpt of secure is a joke -->
1. They believe they are less prone to attacks because they use 'Banyan VINES' and no-one uses Banyan VINES.
2. Whereas most companies uses Windows NT rather then Windows 9x or 3.x since its more secure[LINUX Trolls, I know LINUX is more secure but you have to admit that NT Security is better hten Windows 9x or 3.x]. HRDC seems bent on using all three operating systems.
3. Dial-Up. These people allow workers dialup from HOME using ReachOut [think along lines of Symantec pcAnywhere].
4. Theft. When I was working there, out of an staff of 400 there was 2 stolen lap tops and someone manage to break in and steal 4 machines. I hate to know what are on those harddrives.
5. AUTO-LOGIN! Half the people in the building has it setup [through TweakUI] so that their computer automatically logon to the network for them when they bootup.
6. Job Termainals --> Any Canadian knows about them, they're the little things at malls and stuff that helps you find a job. Well, those things are connected to the entire HRDC network. If someone compromise one of these, then they're screwed.
7. Incomptant Admins --> When I did my co-op there, out of the 10 admins there only 2 had a college degree and out of the two, one was an Psychology Degree. Most of the admins are qualified because they took some 'Computer Repair' or 'Acess Design' course at a community college or somewhere.
8. Idiot Workers --> Have you heard of the recent CSIS problems? [CSIS = NSA]. A BRIEFCASE of confidental docuemnts was stolen from a car of a agent while he was at a ball game.
Expecting the Canadian Government to keep a secure private database is like asking a car to fly, its not going to happen.
-- Note: These Comments are Generated by ME! Not You! ME!
At least we are officially aware of the government keeping a database about us.
I can approximate two lists of government databases in other countries...
Number of countries that does not have a similar database 0
Number of countries where people are officially aware about this database 0
Credit agencies are also obliged to give you access to your credit history. Your medical records, legal history, and most other "important information" are all to be made known to you if you request it.
While this is true it is also misleading to most people. The credit agencies have to give you access to the raw information they collect. However they are under no obligation to tell you your "credit rating" or any other interpretation they make of your data. In fact it is these interpreted facts that are the most important to know. If an individual was talking "behind your back" saying, "that guy is a dead-beat" you'd want to know about it.
My understanding is that this sort of law is standard in most of Europe. I recall that some American politician recently try to pressure Germany into dropping its privacy protection legislation (it was reported here at /. too). I'm hoping that the Candian Bill C6 takes Canada in the same direction as Europe and not down the slippery slope the USA fell down.
Big Brother (the government watching our every move) is certainly a dangerous thing. Big Stranger (corporations watching our every move) is sinister and shouldn't be tolerated.
> Scary. I'd say, "well, thank god the US doesn't have something like that" but...
What's scary is thinking about getting lynched by the neighbors when one of those u'd states accidentally includes your name in their for-public-consumption pedo databases.
Convenient way to get rid of troublemakers, though. And a lot cheaper than running a Gulag.
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Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Yeah I trust her. I think this is the same person that basically pissed away $1 Billion in grants that she couldn't really account for, most of which went to her own riding (someone please correct me or provide the details if i'm wrong).
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
Wow, forget a comma or two...
I did not mean to imply that ALL Albertans are racists or rednecks, just the ones who are gung ho about Reform/Alliance (my wife is from Calgary BTW).
Why you may ask? When at a Reform party convention a few years ago, a delagate stood up, and told the room in A THICK SCOTTISH BROGUE that the big problem in Canada was 'immigration', I got the message real quick (his problem was with 'immigration' from places where the people are, shall we say, of a different hue and texture than he). Worse, everyone in the room nooded in agreement or applauded.
Even Preston Manning has admitted that the party attracts extremists. How many Liberals, Conservatives, BQ or NDP members have been kicked out of their party for racist remarks? Now how many from the Reform/Alliance? I thought so...(BTW a few Hertitage Front members in Toronto actually joined the Ontario Wing of the Reform Party because they thought it was a good place to be!!)
Sorry I threw the whole Alberta name in there. I could just as easily said Ontario (Tom Long).
It's not the part of the country that bothers me so, its the ultra-conservative politics (I don't like Mike Harris or Bill VanderZalm or Ralph Klien for the same reasons).
Now, given all that, please take my previous statement as a direct reference to Ralph Klein et al (who, in my opinion are racist, rednecks and are in fact from Alberta) not to the people of Alberta.
Do me one favour...don't turn a blind eye to the seedier, unpleasant, extremist side of Alliance just becasue you want better representation from the west. You just might get what you vote for.
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
Read that "Alberta-redneck-racists" as a direct reference to Ralph Klein, Preston Manning et al and not the the populace of Western Canada in General.
Gee wiz...
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
I know, I know...I was just hoping an somebody else would win. Tom Long is the scariest of the lot...And I can't stand Mike Harris either. He ranks up there with Ralph Klein.
The best thing Mike Harris ever did was make Bob Rae look good.
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
Very true. However....
Things like the fireworks factory are a very rare occurance. So rare in fact that I am willing to bet my salary for the next two years that you and 200 of your closest friends will not get blown up by an exploding fireworks warehouse.
Rare occurances, such as you describe, might seem like a good time to have such a database. But is having such a database the rest of the time a good idea? It might make you feel all warm and fuzzy, but not me.
not only is the universe stranger than you imagine,
it's stranger than you are capable of imagining
I'm Canadian and I don't like the idea of the Government keeping that much detail on me. A few years ago they started making the mandatory census surveys very detailed (mandatory = jail term if you don't send them in or caught falsifying them). I don't like it one bit.
But...
I'm much less concerned about the Government having this information than Corporations having this information.
In Canada we have the FOIP [Freedom of Information and Privacy Act]. That is why we have a Privacy Commisioner. Well he may or may not be effective in getting the Goverment to responsibly deal with the security of its citizen database the FOIP isn't all bad legislation.
Recently in Canada we also got a law called Bill C6 which forces Companies to disclose what information they are collecting, why the are collecting, it and who they share it with. In the USA there is nothing like this. Companies are "encouraged" to publish privacy policies on-line but in other realms of commerce their is nothing.
I'm really glad the Commisioner has put this out in the open. I really hope Bill C6 has some teeth!
.Alliance: get rid of gun control (make Toronto more like Detriot), destroy (privatized/ two-tier) our healthcare system, outlaw abortion (ask Tom Long), get rid of any other right or program which gets in the way of their backers (see Conrad Black) from making obscene amounts of money.
I don't want any Alberta racist rednecks running my country and destroying everything it stands for just to become more like the US.
I'd even go so far as to vote for Brian Mulroney again rather than give those idiots a chance. Hell I'd even vote for the Bloc before I'd vote for any of them.
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
Aren't these all legitimate things where you'd expect a government to have databases about? Whether it should be in a single centralized database is another matter, of course.
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bgphints - internet routing news, hints and ti
Do me one favour...don't turn a blind eye to the seedier, unpleasant, extremist side of Alliance just becasue you want better representation from the west. You just might get what you vote for.
The problem is that out in the west (I've lived in Ontario, and noticed that BC isn't considered part of the west. Go figure) we really ARE getting riled up about the absolute lack of representation. Ontario alone has a third of the ridings in the country. BC, Alberta, and Saskatchewan only had about 4 ridings that weren't Reform in the last election, and the Liberals still formed a majority government without the help of Quebec.
The Quebecois vote in the Bloc because most of the people want representation, not because they want to leave the country. Their extremist fringe is a whole lot worse than the Reform Party/CA's.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of the Reformers/CA, but who else do I vote for? The Tories are no longer a party worth considering, the federal NDP wouldn't get votes in BC because of the provincial NDP (and I don't like their policies, anyway). The Liberals are the "hated enemy" and that leaves us with what? The Canadian Alliance. Of course, if Day wins their leadership race, I will have to vote Liberal.
Another note... Tom Long is very unlikely to win. He's just there to drum up support for the party in Ontario. He's not well-liked in this half of the country if we go by the people I've spoken with.
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If a tree falls on an anonymous coward yelling 'first post' in the forest, does anybody hear?
Being a canuck and noticing a similar headline in our local news rag, I am not surprised by this. Stats Canada is very thorough in its data collection and analysis. And since goverment is just another form of business, who also keeps databases on their clientel, it doesnt shock me. Canada has always had socialist tendancies in its politics and in order to maintain / run such a system, it requires that it gathers information on all its people. I would not be surprised if the US goverment does do the same. Isnt there a census going on down south ? There will always be database on people out there, no matter what laws are in place and who is enforcing them. If you wish to maintain some form of privacy, you have to control what type of data goes in there. It is much harder to trace someone's spending habits if they only use cash. You can withhold certain information from a census. You can always lie too, morals and beliefs permitting. Remember, it is about you and you have a say. Use it wisely.
This weekend in a town in Holland a fireworks factory exploded, resulting in 500 destroyed houses, more than 500 people injured, and an unknown amount of people killed. Up to now they found 17 bodies and lots of bodyparts, but there are still more than 200 persons missing. So they still have absolutely no idea of how many people actually died in the explosion; are all those 200 persons on the missing-list buried under the rubble?
This uncertainty is largely caused by the fact that there isn't a central administration database in Holland, so therefore it is very hard to find out where people are living at the moment. So in times of a disaster like this, more information on the whereabouts of people wouldn't be so bad.
How to make a sig
without having an idea
The only mistake that Stewert made was going public with it. She got massacred by the media. Just like the Liberals intended.
Why would she have known what was going on? She had nothing to do with the Ministry until she was appointed as Minister. She did not participate in the cover-up. Else we'd have never heard of the billion dollar boondoggle.
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If a tree falls on an anonymous coward yelling 'first post' in the forest, does anybody hear?
Unfortunately it's ROT26.
Carousel is a lie!
Face it, both the government and the corps likes to keep track of us. They will do it wether we like it or not. If the corps buys their data from the central database, they:
a) Has to follow some rules
b) At least gets correct data about me, not something someone else entered in my name.
c) are less inclined to build their own, more detailed database (esp if that is surrounded with decent laws)
I think we should concentrate on the *use* of personal data rather than the mere existence thereof. (since it will never go away)
All opinions are my own - until criticized
In Canada, around 1990, it was revealed by the oversight committee that the CSIS (the Canadian equivalent of the CIA) has dossiers on 10% of the population. This doesn't include the files of course of the CSE (the equivalent of the NSA) or RCMP domestic intelligence, or military intelligence. The Canadian Government likes to watch.
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Encrypted does not mean secure. Now that everyone knows it's out there, it will only be a matter of time till some 1337 haxor goes and cracs it, just for bragging rights if nothing else. Housing this information in just one place seems like a dumb move to me. I think it would be much more secure if they warehoused it in a more diverse manner.
__
More race stuff in one place,
than any one place on the net.
The fact is that probably every country in the world keeps some kind of database about the people who live in it, either through police files, electoral rolls or census information. Of course, most countries wouldn't admit it if they can get away with it, but I seriously doubt there are any that don't have them.
I remember reading somewhere that over 15 million people here in the UK have police files on them. These include anyone who has ever been picked up by the police, anyone who is a member of a "subversive" organisation, privacy and free speech advocates and generally anyone who isn't a complete Middle England, Daily Mail reading, 2.4 children kind of person.
I bet the percentage of /. readers with files on them is definitely greater than the 35% average :)
Even assuming that the encryption is secure, there's still the potential for disgruntled authorised users of this system to poke around in your record on the database, or to start selling bits of information to interested third parties.
I think that most governments probably keep "extraoradinarily detailed" databases on their citizens, but I would assume that your educational records, tax records and health records are all kept in separate databases, in separate servers and in separate locations. The sheer scale of this database, and the possible consequences of its abuse are the really worrying factors.
In the UK, the Department of Social Security maintains a database of everyone with a National Insurance number (= social security id) called the Departmental Central Index. At one stage, it was possible for outside companies to buy info on an id for £5 (about $8) - this was illegal but it happened nonetheless.
It has been estimated that the average Dutch citizen has an entry in 400 databases. Makes you think.
I'll do it for cheesy poofs.
Man, Canada is creepy.
Thank goodness the US government would never keep information like that on it's citizens.
BTW, have you spoken to your Census 2000 rep yet? Mine knocks on the door every damn night, but he looks like a serial killer, so I'm afraid to answer.
Oh well, maybe in 2010.
 -Tommy
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"I do not think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday."
"I got a half gallon of Jack, and 2 dozen Ant Traps. I'm about to get wild." -me