Lightsaber: Input Device Of The (Near) Future

Jacek Fedorynski writes: "Take a look at Project Earthlight, described in this interview. Basically, this guy took a webcam and a lightsaber toy and turned them into a virtual saber duel. Sounds supercool to me. Plus, he gets a style bonus for quoting Carmack's .plan." (Admit it -- you're swinging your hands and making lightsaber noises.) Since I grouse a lot about the disconnect between controllers and game actions, this is one of the coolest things I've seen in a long time.

Comments

Improvements

[Splitzy]

I, like evryone else, thinks this is absolutly sweet but I have a few suggestions how to make it even better.

1: Open source the program, that way we can make all sorts of neat interactive games and improve on them.

2: Force feedback. I'd love swinging around a lightsabre at my oponent, but I would like to feel the force of his blade pushing against mine. This would add to the realsism concidering the blade would have actual wieght and resistance...right now you could overswing and miss because you can't physicly feel the lightsabres.

Does anyone else have any additions?

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"No government has jurisdiction over the truth." - Fox Mulder

Re:RealityFusion

[Plan571]

If you read the interview then you will see that he mentions RealityFusion quite a few times, and from what he says they have only used the 2-d image from the webcam to create 2-d control. His light saber game has three dimensional movement based on the spherical coordinates from the shoulder to elbow to arm to end of light saber.

How "closely connected" do you want to be?

[kaphka]

The main point of computer games is to allow us to experience things that we can't do in real life. If you make the interaction too realistic, then it becomes just as hard to play the game as it is to do the real thing (and not as rewarding.)

Personally, I'd probably like a "virtual lightsaber," but, like many /.ers, I have experience with martial arts. There are a lot of other people out there who would find such an interface frustrating.

Re:How "closely connected" do you want to be?

[gad_zuki!]

The main point of computer games is to allow us to experience things that we can't do in real life.

Naww, the point of a is to game provide a good time, look at the popularity of fishing and hunting games. Not only do people enjoy them they sell quite a bit too.

I really like these simple simulators, like that DJ game for PSX, its fun to play at being a martial artist or a DJ than it is to actually put the huge effort to become one. Its a game, after all.

The real breakthrough

[JupiterX]

The real breakthrough here could be for the disabled. A system like this could allow deaf and mute people to communicate with the computer using American Sign Language, wearing brightly colored gloves. The coding would be a lot more difficult, but this sort of thing is definitely possible. Of course, many deaf and mute people can just use the keyboard and mouse, but those who are also blind or disabled in another way (lacking the finer coordination needed to use a regular keyboard, perhaps, due to a mental disability) could benefit greatly from this technology. With a few more advances in speech recognition, computers could soon be used as translators between speaking people and non-speaking ones. Yeah, the technology makes it neat to swing a virtual lightsaber, but the possibilities go far beyond that.

Re:The real breakthrough

[MaximumBob]

Ok, I get your point. I guess that my point is that I still don't know how this helps them actually interact with the computer. Interaction is two parts. One, you have to be able to communicate with the computer, as I'm doing through typing this. Two, the computer has to be able to communicate with you. Hence the monitor. This still does not help a blind and deaf person use any software at all.

That said, I do see your point about perhaps translating from sign language into text or spoken words. In effect, the computer would serve the purpose that a human translator does now. However, it still cannot allow a deaf and blind person to carry on a conversation, simply because there's no good way for the computer to translate back.

Or is there?

I honestly don't know. It seems like some sort of rudimentary braille panel would be possible to make, where the computer interpreted the text/voice it was getting, converted it, and relayed it in the form of braille on some sort of panel or pad. In fact, I'd be willing to bet these are already in existence in some form or another.

Still, at the same time, I suspect that most of the things the sighted, have come to expect from computers are probably not feasible. For example, the idea of a GUI is almost certainly not possible, for obvious reasons. In the same way, multimedia probably isn't very likely. Taste, smell and touch, the three senses that our hypothetical deaf and blind person does have access to, don't really have that much to do with the way we talk with computers, at this point.

I suspect that, in all likelihood, the only way a deaf and blind person will ever get the same level of use out of a computer that the average sighted person can is if some sort of "datajack," to steal a term, is invented. And I don't even want to get into the realm of direct neural interfaces here.

Re:The real breakthrough

[MaximumBob]

Exactly how does this help the blind? I mean, if you're blind, you are already not really in a good position to interact with a standard computer, where the majority of the interaction is visual in the first place.

Seen it done with a Fighting Game

[doconnor]

I saw something simlar to this last summer at the Playdium in Mississauga, Ontario. It was a fighter where you stand against a blue screen and kick and punch and your charactor would make the same move. Because your game charactor had a fixed set of moves it didn't match your movements precisly, but it worked pretty well.

Neat idea, but...

[LocalYokel]

These things generally don't fly -- only replacements or enhancements to the kinds of controllers people already use. There are a number of "ain't it cool" kinds of controls that you can already buy, but nobody does. I have a 19" monitor, but with a light saber, I think I'd have to step too far back to see what's actually happening while using the controller.

Niche controllers need some demand -- flight sticks and steering wheel/pedal systems are successful because there are a number of flight and racing games. There aren't too many swordfighting games, so you either have to make it very inexpensive and include it with the game, or make the hardware so useful that everyone will want to buy their own.

Maybe people would want one if there were more swordfighting games, but how many games are written to supply a latent demand? Virtually all commercial software (games incl.) is written to supply the well established demand for the buzzword of the month...

--

Re:Slackers in class

[nEoN nOoDlE]

the kids who studied and did well did dumbfounding things when they graduated. The kids who tolerated the classes, got stuck on an easy problem that they missed learning in school.

Coming Soon

[gad_zuki!]

The 'electric' version for you ladies.

I can see the infomercial now:

"You mean this would actually make my girls want to use a computer?!"

What special controller?

[roystgnr]

Take a look at the web site, would you? The "niche controller" is a two dollar plastic kiddie lightsaber toy. The trick is that he's got image analysis software hooked up to a web cam to tell the game exactly where that lightsaber is being held and with what orientation. If you've already got the web cam for other reasons (and they sell pretty well; people like sending their pictures along with personal email, or videoconferencing with good connections) then the "controller" cost in this case is trivial.

Re:Not practical

[Russ Nelson]

Silly dweeb! So you use two of them! Computers are like jellybeans. If you only have one of them working for you at any time, you're impoverishing yourself.
-russ

Aoshi

[Kenshin]

Cool, he used Shinomori Aoshi as the opponent. It's hard to pick a cooler opponent than that. I want this game now. :)

Cool, but

[molo]

This is neat, and might have uses in VR type simulations, but I'm not sure it'll work well with computer games. The most successful games have a layer of abstraction in their interface, which brings the game-world away from the real world. If that layer is removed, to many people, it becomes more than a game.

Some might think this is desirable, but I believe it could be dangerous. This goes back to that whole "Doom made me such an efficient killer" arguemnt. I'm not sure what the result of something like this would be, but it could be something we're not expecting.

Re:Cool, but

[iCEBaLM]

Some might think this is desirable, but I believe it could be dangerous. This goes back to that whole "Doom made me such an efficient killer" arguemnt. I'm not sure what the result of something like this would be, but it could be something we're not expecting.

Right, and playing Nascar 2 with a wheel allowed me to drive in the Daytona 500 and beat Dale Earnhart.

Please...

-- iCEBaLM

Re:Cool, but

[alhaz]

Intel Create-&-Share cameras come with a bouncing ball screen saver program that works essentially the same way.

If the lighting is right (light behind you rather than infront of you), you can watch yourself on the screen as a little ball bounces around, and you can "whack" the ball with your hands, or a stick, or whatever.

It just sees a dark area moving across the captured image and compares it to where the ball is on the screen. Simple, really. Great time waster.

RealityFusion

[cd_Csc]

A company named RealityFusion has done something similar a while ago. From their web site, you can request the SDK. They also have a "Variety Pack" available for download that has a couple of demo programs.

Does anybody here have any experience with their SDK and/or demos? Are there any other companies doing similar things?

BTW, Digimarc and Wired are giving away free USB webcams (does not include shipping/handling) at http://www.digimarc.com/household.

problems?...

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe I'm missing something here... I know that this is a new idea, and, it sounds like a good one - but, such a system seems very restrictive to me...
Firstly, what about depth? moving forwards and backwards would either need very precise length measurements to be accurate without a second camera, would it not...
also, how could such a system be used in a "real" simulation, for instance, turning round, or being required to move outside of the frame...
Believe me, I'd love to pick up a lightsaber and do battle with vader - but the idea seems very much like the very old boxing games, one button to punch, another to block - and how can it be developed into something that can be actually played in a "real" game scenario

The next grand trick

[debrain]

I'm waiting for the Force Feedback version.

College == jobs

[gad_zuki!]

Its pretty sad when people view education as nothing more but a means to the end of getting ahead in the rat race.

Re:College == jobs

[gad_zuki!]

No one is telling you to go be a hermit, but what about finding something you find fulfilling, learning about it, being creative with it, and if you choose starting a career in it. Instead studying something just so you can get your foot in the door so you can "preserve your lifestyle."

You can choose to do that, but knocking others who do interesting things in college like the guy this article or assuming everyone goes to college so they can buy a BMW is about is simply stupid.

Limerick retort

[575]

Perhaps, to seek fame is my role
Some opine these contrivances droll
Your statement is fair
And at least you're aware
That a karma whore isn't a troll

Evil empire

[BlueUnderwear]

Unfortunately, only Windows drivers will be available, so tough luck defeating that empire with your lightsaber.

Star Wars game (i.e. Jedi Knight & Obi-Wan)?

[antdude]

I wonder if LucasArts would implement this device for their games? :)

Re:Wow.

[gunner800]

Maybe after lightsabers, you geeks will figure out how to have sex with real women. Or maybe that's too much?

You do bring up an interesting game idea. Virtual Sex. Just wave your flesh saber in front of the camera and try to bop the computer controlled chick. Lose points if she gets pregnant.

(I tried to make this post less exclusive of the female readers, but it would have turned out just plain indecent)

Upgrade

[N1UGLham]

Awesome! But I think the next step has to be something that incorporates a life-size x-wing. :) or maybe a pod racer...

now all we need a tactile and resistance

[orpheus]

This is certainly a promising step...

but in my experience, the more experience you have with 'the real thing' (e.g. martial arts, flight, or firearms) the less satisfying the imitations are. That doesn't mean that DOOM or dogfighters aren't fun anymore, but they're fun for reasons only tangentially related to the activities they model. Doom isn't a 'cop-style' tactical shooting simulator, and most dogfight games are pale echoes of a flight sim

Moving up the scale of involvement, manual combat games (martial arts) totally fail for me because of the controller problem. I find the five button arcade interface insulting and unsatisfying, and I think that a swordfighting game would be similarly hollow without the constraints that make real swordplay challenging.

Fortunately, the hollow plastic lightsaber gives us a great opportunity for tactile feedback and resistance.

Striking an opponent's sword has three major components:

Tactile: the 'thump' of impact on a timescale of 0-40 milliseconds
(could be a solenoid in the handle: cheap, easy to install, and minimal software driver needed

Resistance: during an impact, the opponent's sword resists your sword, depending on the force and direction of impact. The force may not be much greater thna the solenoid 'thump', and the timescale is not that much longer (say 100-200 msec), but even brief sustained forces require something far more complex than a single solenois
Possible mechanism: independent heavily imbalanced motorized cams on the axis of the saber shaft, and sophisticated drivers to allow the individual cam torque impulses to sum, simultaneously or sequentially, to the desired force profile.

Blade Inertia: throught a fight, the inertia of a blade's motion resists maneuvering. This is a very significant factor in the overall fight.
Potential mechanism: Easy way out? Use a heavy saber. Unfortunately, this might tend to wreck your den, your cubicle, and nearby friends. Cheesier way out? "Light saber blades don't have mass, harrumph!"

Re:now all we need a tactile and resistance

[orpheus]

Gyroscopes *precess* which means they move at right angles to the applied torque.

If you press on the front of a gyroscope, it tilts to one side (depending on the direction of rotation), etc. This might feel 'cool' to a kid (I think some children's toys have tried this), but in a realistic interface, it would feel incredibly unnatural.

The above applies to 'torques' - forces that tend to alter the axis of the gyroscope. Non-torque ('central' or 'direct') forces produce the same response as they would on any mass. However, this eliminates any advantage you might expect from a gyroscope -- it might as well be a chunk of rock, as far as non-torque forces are concerned.

If a gyroscope is fixed to the outside case of the blade, most reasonable swordfighting moves will produce mostly torque. If it is mounted on a gimbal, most moves will produce very little torque (depending on how good the gymbal is). You could have a variable resistance gymbal; or accelerate and decelerate the gyroscope rotation to modulate the the size of the precession force, but the direction would *still* be all wrong. It would be like wrestling a snake.

Artificial Reality

[Pseudonymus Bosch]

I am surprised that nobody links this to the pioneer work of Myron Krueger in artificial reality. He was using video recognisation (word?) as an input in the 80s.
__

Just what I need...

[SirWhoopass]

holding a weapon while playing games. Considering the damage my PlayStation controllers have to endure after a bad loss, someone better look into making armored monitors.

Re:Very Nice

[JatTDB]

That would probably be harder to do...a lightsaber is basically a cylinder...very easy to do on-the-fly video processing to determine its angle and such. The batleth (I don't know the real spelling either) is all curvy and stuff, can be used to attack with either end and the middle, etc.

Maybe that's not as much of a problem these days...video processing/image recoginition stuff has never been my strongpoint.

Haiku

[575]

Lightsaber in hand
Leap and slash like a Jedi
Hide broken heirlooms

Re:Haiku

[575]

Moderators heed
Don't elect away these words
My verse can ring true

Re:A "Cure" for the couch-potato generation

[cswiii]

Yeah, but didn't they say the same thing about the Nintendo Gamepad, or whatever it was, where you did the track and field events by running on the pad? ;)

A "Cure" for the couch-potato generation

[jfortier]

I was in the Edmonton Space & Science Centre where I saw a game that operates on similar principles. You stand in front of a blue screen, and a camera tracks your motions, which control a sort of airborne skateboard-type thing as you fly around obstacles and try to collect points. I played it a few times, and it was fairly fun (although I don't know how much the excitement would stand up to playing it a lot of times).

The neat thing was, however, that after playing it a few times I was realized I was actually getting exercise while playing. It wasn't all that strenuous, but then I only played for about 5 minutes. I think if these types of concepts could be extended and improved , and eventually brought into the home, it could have some really good benefits. With a fairly large screen TV, it doesn't matter if you're a few metres away from the screen so you can jump around as much as you please. Then, parents wouldn't have to worry about their kids not getting exercise while playing video games. As well, people who find normal modes of exercise boring (a lot of people aren't enchanted by the treadmill) would have a fun way to burn off those extra calories.

Slackers in class

[Brento]

Best quote from the interview: "I'll try to work on it more, but I'm a student so classwork sucks a lot of my time up."

That's funny, that's exactly how I viewed classes, too. (Although I didn't produce anything nearly this brilliant.) The kids who studied and did well never really produced anything dumbfounding. The kids to watch were the ones who tolerated the classes just to get the information they needed, and then raced to the labs to do the real (albeit frivolous) work.

Necessity isn't the mother of invention: it's boredom.

Nice Hack

[348]

This is a very nice hack. And with most good hacks, it opens up a whole new outlook on existing environments.

Look at some of the possibilities. Quake in VR, Online Baseball, Easier input for disabled folks, Kiosks, Advertising, Interactive HDTV, (a stretch), and could bring a whole new level to chat rooms such as this.

Very cool stuff, at a minimum, with all the praise he gave Carmack, hopefully ID will pick it up rather than continuing to try to develop this on their own.