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How Are Standards Monitored And Enforced?

Pubman asks: "I suspect virtually everyone appreciates the value of standards, especially the open variety. Where would we be without TCP/IP? At my company, we have been going through a continuous process of defining, implementing and enforcing standards. An associate has posed the following question to me. 'How are standards monitored for compliance?' I would appreciate everyone's thoughts on how standards are monitored and enforced on the Internet, by IETF, ISO, NIST, etc. so we can design a process based upon the published and unpublished experience of others. Thanks ... "

35 of 89 comments (clear)

  1. Thoughts. by komet · · Score: 3

    IMHO, There are 3 ways of standardisation:

    1) Interoperability. Test your stuff with other peoples' and make sure it works. If it doesn't, good luck selling it. This is the Internet way.
    Sometimes comes out very badly - viz. tons of not-quite-RFC-compliant mail servers...

    2) Certification. Certification bodies test your product for compliance with a written standard. Of course, this assumes that such a written standard actually exists... This is the best way for non-upgradable stuff - imagine having to upload new firmware to your cellphone every two weeks.

    3) Being Microsoft. Not an option for most non-Microsoft companies. May result in antitrust proceedings.

    --
    Any technology which is distinguishable from magic is not sufficiently advanced.
    1. Re:Thoughts. by sql*kitten · · Score: 2
      Being Microsoft. Not an option for most non-Microsoft companies. May result in antitrust proceedings.

      Ok, I know this was just the obligatory slashbot clause, but I'll answer it anyway...

      Microsoft are by no means the only company to define their own standards. For example, when IBM wanted a networking protocol, they just said "SNA" and the industry jumped. And "consensus" standards, despite the hype, are often not the best solutions. For example, SPX/IPX is arguably a better LAN protocol than TCP/IP, because it has much less of an administration overhead. DECNet also has many advantages over TCP/IP, not least of which is its designers were sensible enough to think that users as well as machines could be network principals.

      And there are the de-facto standards due to popularity. For example, IBM's CICS (or Rexx, or MQ, or many others) product is a standard, because everyone uses it. The same could be said for Oracle's PL/SQL. IBM also have a firmer grip on the transaction processing market than MS have over the desktop. Java is an arbitrary Sun standard, no matter what noises they make about standards bodies. If Cisco say they want such-and-such feature in BGP, then it's there, no questions asked (or perhaps that should be "no questions answered").

      Microsoft were correct when they realised that whoever controls the rules controls the game, but they didn't invent this model, and whatever the DOJ say, the rest of the industry isn't going to stop using that strategy competitively.

    2. Re:Thoughts. by rnturn · · Score: 2
      ``For example, when IBM wanted a networking protocol, they just said "SNA" and the industry jumped.''

      I can remember a presentation given in-house years ago when IBM came to hype their networking technology. When he made the comment:

      ``...and for those of you that made the mistake of installing Ethernet and are running TCP...''

      I couldn't see how he was able to continue amid all the laughter. A lot of people just got up and left. So some of that ``jumping'' was people jumping ship. Not everyone was silly enough to pay a license fee to use the network link to move files, another separate fee to do network printing, etc. etc.

      ``For example, IBM's CICS (or Rexx, or MQ, or many others) product is a standard, because everyone uses it. The same could be said for Oracle's PL/SQL.''

      These aren't standards -- at least you'll have a difficult time convincing me that they are -- they're just popular products. I have to cringe every time some utters the phrase ``[insert-popular-product-name-here] standard''. Just because everyone's using it doesn't make it any less proprietary. IMHO, if it only is available from one company or usable on only a single company's systems, it ain't a standard.(So, go ahead, call me rabidly in favor of true open systems. :-) )

      ``Java is an arbitrary Sun standard, no matter what noises they make about standards bodies.''

      Aren't most standards championed by one company or a small group of companies? Did you think these standards spring fully defined from the brow of Athena or something? Lay off Sun; at least they're trying to promulgate a language that doesn't lead to vendor tie-ins.


      --
      --
      CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
  2. Depends on the standard by fluxrad · · Score: 3

    For an internet based standard (i.e. TCP/IP) - you pretty much have to go by cooperation. Since the internet was pretty small when it started (read: DARPANET, etc.) and sort of grew into an agregate of individual networks, it was pretty easy for everyone to comply. Now, if you don't abide by the TCP/IP protocols that just about everyone uses on the net, you don't get on the net :-) It's pretty easy to enforce something that has absolutely no reason not to be used. Otherwise, the best way to figure out the standards on the net are, of course, to read all of the RFC's out there. There really is no "enforcement" of these, per se...but they're used because they're good.

    As far as a business is concerned, well that's a whole different bag of tricks. Standards, unfortunately, for any size company are going to have to be monitored by individuals...details would be, of course, different from situation to situation. While this works for small companies, large companies will have to figure out how best to utilize manpower to make sure that what works best is actually being implemented.

    The best rule of thumb, as far as i'm concerned, is don't standardize something that no one is going to/want to use....anything is enforceable so long as people say "hey...that's a good idea." but you're going to have a hell of a time if everyone is rebelling.


    FluX
    After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network

    --
    "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
    1. Re:Depends on the standard by fluxrad · · Score: 2

      ohhh...you lookey like good ac! me want kaama fo yoo.

      come on baby! modelate me up...make me feel so good....me post fo yoo, post loong time!!!!

      now THAT is karma whoring!


      FluX
      After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network

      --
      "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
  3. It's been said before, and it'll be said again.... by Morbid+Curiosity · · Score: 2

    The nice thing about standards is that there's so many to choose from...

  4. Quote early, Quote often by Money__ · · Score: 2
    When attempting to move a group of people toward useing a standard, I'm reminded of a quote from Tim Berners Lee. "There's nothing like authorship to get buy-in." That is to say, if the users you are attempting to move to the new standard had a first hand interest, then they have helped create the standard. If they took responsibility to help form the standard, they have a roll in it's implimentation and proliforation.

    While the standard is being developed, release a revision around the office and solicit responses. Some decisions in the standard may be very obvious, but if you've recieved a response from 10 people "demanding" this obvious implimentation, they'll feel that they've "fought hard" to help shape the standard, and will help others to use it. (remember, your goal is achieve buy-in first, then rely on network effects to spread the word).

    If I'm handed a 30 page document with instructions that read "Do It", I might be a little put off. But if my opinion is saught throughout the development of that same document, I not only will impliment it's use, but will be proud to help other people use it too.

    This leads to the "chapter and verse" quotes that help to keep a standard in place. "Clearly, if you take a look at 'Foo Co. RFC chapter 3 page 4' you'll notice it calls for . . ". these are the kinds of network effects that help to educate people, and help to move your company in the direction you need.
    ___

  5. Some thoughts about TCP/IP / MS ... by CptnHarlock · · Score: 2
    After the Kerberos/MS thingie came up I've been thinking about how lucky we've been that Microsoft got into the Internet stuff so late. Had they been there earlyer they _might_ have done the same thing to TCP/IP... Or released some sort of "alternative".. Do you remember the _original_ MSN?.. Nice try, but no luck for them (lots of luck for us)... When I came to think of this the first time I was almost scared at the thought of what MS could have done and I even considered not even mentioning it on /. since we all know that MS monitors this placeand that they could pick up the idea... But now I feel a bit more confident and can speak freely... :) ...

    From now on i think standard must become more rigid and controlled by someone (like Kerberos). It may suck, but I think that's a small price to pay considering what MS is capable of and any MS-wannabe that may show up after MS's fall. What do you think?

    Thank you.
    //Frisco
    --
    "At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." -Goethe

    --
    $HOME is where the .*shrc is
    -- silver_p
  6. Conformance Testing by Detritus · · Score: 2

    One approach is conformance testing. In the USA, this has been done by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, Electronic Data Systems, and other private and government organisations. One problem is that a product can pass the test and also be a bloated, slow and buggy piece of junk.

    --
    Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
  7. Enforcement shouldn't be needed. by SuperguyA1 · · Score: 2

    Generally there is no enforcment for the standards, if you don't follow them you don't get to play in the playground. You won't be interoperable with everyone else. This is the problem with proprietary extensions to these open standards. If some company in a monopolistic position(Names witheld to protect the guilty) were to impliment their own proprietary extension it throws the whole thing out the window. This is why it's the USERS responsibility to make sure that the products they by are from companies who play nicely otherwise they are only hurting themselves by squashing innovation(hmm....)

    --
    "as plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee" - Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz. (One man's humorous is another mans flamebait)
  8. Short answer by Rob+Kaper · · Score: 4
    How are standards monitored and enforced?

    Not.

    Or at least not by an independent group or even a collaboration of various parties or an organization standing up for consumer rights.

    Office file formats have become the de facto standard, not any of the well documented open text/data formatting standards. The HTML specifications are not the standard, the way MSIE renders HTML is. MP4 was embraced and extended/altered by Microsoft even before it was a standard.

    There are probably even better examples, and non-Microsoft ones as well. They deserve to be bullied but their are a symptom, not the disease. The real disease are the huge companies:

    Five years ago there was a lot of rumble about mega-fusions resulting in mega-corporations. I shrugged. Now, I see AOL/Time Warner, Microsoft, Viacom, UPC etcetera and start to get scared, because these big corporations do not only control the standards, they make them.

    They have no or little interest in consumer benefits. Money is their primary (only?) motivation. Communism was a good idea in theory, but failed in practice. And perhaps capitalism is being driven too far and this might eventually make an end to it as we know it as well.

    Think about it: the UCITA, the whole Napster/Gnutella affair, deCSS, human beings even _considering_ a hyperlink could be copyright infringement..

    My apologies for this possible piece of flamebait. But the big buck is already starting to undermine certain principles of the democracy and freedom we enjoy and I am worried it will only get worse and worse.

    End of rant..

    1. Re:Short answer by Chakotay · · Score: 2

      hear hear!

      The way the US and most European countries went during the Cold War is very interesting. In response to the USSR going hard left, the US went hard right, while most European countries tried to walk the thin line inbetween. As a result, many European countries, especially the Scandinavian countries, Benelux countries, Germany and the UK display a rather elegant mix of capitalism, liberalism and socialism which seems to work out quite nicely.

      I too watch with fear the development and growth of the monster companies in the US. One I especially fear is UPC, because it is taking over the cable nets in the Netherlands at the moment. Its coverage is already about 50%, and from experience I can say that their quality SUCKS. They change channels around without prior notice, the quality of some channels' signals is deplorable, and the quality of their cable internet service, Chello, is even worse. Once my parents were without internet for SIX DAYS, and all they said if you were ever able to get through the telephone queues was that they were working on the problem and that it would be resolved WITHIN TWO WORKING DAYS. Two working days to restore an internet connection? How would that sound if it were, for example, a telephone connection, or a power connection?

      Ah, but I'm digressing, and ranting.

      Standards should be there to make sure various programs by various companies are able to work together flawlessly. But currently all too many standards are created to do the opposite: make sure other companies' products CAN'T work together with yours, so everybody will have to buy yours to be compliant to your standard. To quote from Galaxy Quest: "Ewwwww, that just isn't right!"


      )O(
      the Gods have a sense of humour,

      --

      Never underestimate the power of stupidity
      To err is human, to moo bovine
  9. They aren't. by Gromer · · Score: 5

    Enforced, that is. Not real ones, anyway. The world of computing is littered with dead or undead standards "enforced" by government fiat, corporate white papers, or other forms of "enforcement." The fact is that true standards, like TCP/IP, exist as standards because they work, and it is in the interests of all concerned to comply with them.

    If I build a packet of random data and toss it out onto my network, the TCP/IP police won't come and get me for failing to comply with the standards. Similarly, if I connect to an FTP server and start trying to talk to it in english, no jack-booted IETF thugs will show up at my door. On the other hand, my packet will get tossed out as soon as it reaches a router, and the FTP server just isn't going to send me the file I keep asking it for. I comply with the TCP/IP and FTP standards because it is in my interests to do so. Otherwise, things don't work.

    Note that this requires a key distinction be made between a standard and a specification. A specification is what passes through the comittee and gets written up in a white paper. A standard is what people actually use. People violate specifications all the time, and the world continues to turn, so long as there is a standard. Most internet standards were standard long before they were specified by the IETF, for example the mapping from port names to services. On the other hand, there is HTML. There is no HTML standard. There are plenty of specifications, of course, but no standard, which is why being a web designer is such a nightmarish job.

    From your question, however, I get the impression that a specification, not a standard, is what you are creating. Honestly, the only thing you can do is make sure your specification is so good that it is adopted as a standard, a process which can only take place voluntarily. Quality is the only real determinant of whether a specification becomes a standard, and no amount of enforcement can save a specification that people don't want to follow.

    --
    "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" -Salvor Hardin
  10. Anarchism, or "Rough Consensus and Running Code" by Jacques+Chester · · Score: 3
    Standards, such as they are in software, cannot really be "enforced".

    Standards generally boil down to two kinds. The first kind is usually a legal minimum of quality imposed on manufacturers for civic purposes. Thus we have standards for toys, car safety and food. The second kind of standard is when everyone agrees to work to the same specs. It is this kind of standard that dominates the software industry.

    The IETF is perhaps the most influential "bazaar" group of them all. Before Linux, before GNU, there was a bunch of guys who believed in "rough consensus and running code". The IETF makes the standards of how the Internet runs. Basically if it's IETF-approved, it's in.

    The irony is that the IETF is as non-enforcing as groups come. It is, in fact, quite anarchic in nature. Anyone may join. Anyone may attend any meetings and generally propose anything they like. If it's good, it will garner consensus. If you have code to show, you're way ahead on points.

    The enforcement of IETF standards is not coercive, as you are looking for: it is social. Individual developers, tool companies, software companies, publishers, and software buyers - all of these derive advantage from standards-based software. For any company to break these standards there must be substantial reason - and even then, they will cop a lot of flack.

    So if you are looking for a "method" to derive, derive this: Discussion, Design and Disclosure makes a Standard. Discuss the standard widely, give it a solid grounding of design, and disclose your code and detailed designs to everyone.

    Just some quick observations to catch the 25-post moderator's theshold :)

    be well;

    JC.

    --
    "Don't declare a revolution unless you are prepared to be guillotined." - Anon.

    --

    Classical Liberalism: All your base are belong to you.

  11. Its all a dangerously stacked house of cards... by caolan · · Score: 5
    In my experience
    1. When a standard says MUST, then the implementation might
    2. When a standard says SHOULD, then the implementation will not
    3. When a standard RECCOMENDS, then the implementer will laugh scornfully
    4. When there are two possible interpertations of a standard there will be 4 possible implementations, correct for readings 1 and 2, a mad attempt to fit both contraditory meanings and the the old reliable invention of something completely incompatible with both.
    The situation is farcical for many standards, they work together but everyones code and documentation is riddled with lines like "do this technically incorrect or unnecessary thing for this broken but important application", A perfect example is the rfc822 mail standard. Read the qmail information on the reality of what shows up in headers

    Your average programmer is a completely incompetent ego riden madman. A standard is an affront to his cherised belief that he is the best programmer on the planet. How dare someone restrict his options to make a complete mess. So they trample all over the standards, and each program that is broken but not broken enough to fail immediately and catastrophically adds to the standards pollution. Limiting the solution space in which it is possible to create an app that interoperates correctly with everything else.

    A proper standard shouldn't be released unless it has a few things which most lack,

    1. A rationale, Why are decisions made, egoboy is more likely to follow a standard if its reasoning is made clear and the thinking behind various decisions are explicit.
    2. A big set of tests which the app must pass before it can conform to the standard. Not that that mattered much in the case of rfc822 btw most mail programs wouldn't know what to do with the complex commenting and line folding behaviour.
    3. A section threatening intense physical suffering for anyone caught trying to subvert it. "By reading this document you hereby agree to a punishment no less than being nailed to a tree for creating any software which almost but not quite matches the standard herein"
    4. And a sample implementation released.
    Thus the md5 and sha1 rfcs are solid as they have tests and an implementation hanging off them. Telnet and mail were doomed for the beginning to always spawn numerous implementations almost correctly work together but always requiring vast amount of under the hood trickery and special case handling.

    C.

    --
    I sometimes write stuff
  12. Extend me by Money__ · · Score: 5
    I was recently in a Mozilla chat room with some other developers when they were discussing a standards specification. What I found amazing was how much the engineers really sweat the small stuff to make sure mozilla is really as compliant as it can be. I'm reminded of a quote from one of the developers regarding a standards doc he was reading. He said: "This spec just screams extend me!".

    Sometimes the language of the spec is so general that it can be interpreted many different ways, or is so vague that there can be incompatible implementations of the same portion of the spec. Often, this is the result of "group writing" and a series of compromises. When working through a spec, it's in everyones best interest to avoid putting any language of this kind into the spec.
    ___

    1. Re:Extend me by Johan+Veenstra · · Score: 2

      I've just been reading http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc822.html and http://cr.yp.to/immhf.html (rfc822, and an article about rfc822, both suggested by caolan) and I was shocked. I never imagined a standard could be so vague.

      It suddenly realized how important it is to write precise specs. Not is english, not in lawyer-english, but in the only precise language in this world, mathematical-language.

      rfc822 is a 47 page document. In which the authors try to specify a standard in english, and things still aren't clear (read the article about rfc822).

      I'm quite sure that using a simple BNF grammar, I could 'define' the standard in no more than 5 pages. We have a very precise and powerfull language at our disposal, but somehow a lot of scientists prefer to use english. By the way, implementing a mathematical spec is a *LOT* easier than a spec written in english.

      Johan V.

  13. Simply put by Tei'ehm+Teuw · · Score: 2

    Standards are adopted and used as a baseline simply beacause they work. Good technology gets adopted, not so great technology doesn't, at lease not for the long haul.

  14. Possible models+examples by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    Standards by Fiat - flog a new product/protocol, then define it as *THE* standard

    e.g. Samba, Word, Audio Compact Disc

    Standards by Proclaination - competitors create me-too "compatible" clones

    FAT16

    Standards by Committee - someone creates a group to knock heads

    Jpeg, Ethernet. Tends to have the disadvantage of having a lot of numbers based on 1.5 * 2^n when nobody could decide whether to go for 2^n or 2^(n+1)

    Standards by Concensus - define a lowest-common demonomiator subset that people can live with

    The X window system

    Standards by Irritation - result is so grotty that someone is pissed off enough to write a free|open implementation

    Any X toolkit

    Standards by stealth - works so well that everyone else just accepts it

    A standard that works well? Naah.

  15. The microsoft way of course by QuantumRiff · · Score: 2

    1. Find an system that works well, such as kerbos

    2. Innovate to add new features to the protocol.

    3. Make certain that the inovations ruin interoperability.

    4. Call it the same name as the stadardized protocol, kerbos.

    5. Hire intern to refresh slashdots web page every 25 seconds and ensure that nobody published the documentation for your innovation into an open standard.



    ------------------------------------------
    If God Droppd Acid, Would he see People???
    --

    What are we going to do tonight Brain?
  16. Re:Haiku by GRAMMERSoft · · Score: 2

    You even took the ellpisis!

    But I have to admit, you display remarkable wit and intelligence.

    --
    That said, I think it's time I changed my .sig (again)
  17. Re:Especially the open variety? by radja · · Score: 2

    >So tell me, who appreciates closed standards? In other words, proprietary standards?

    the DVD forum 'appreciates' closed standards as a way to control people's viewing habits, use of equipment and the likes. And ofcourse screw us all out of some more obsolete money.

    You can open up a completely closed standard by reverse engineering, like DeCSS did. Yes, that's legal, but probably not in the US.

    //rdj

    --

    No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
    --Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
  18. Re:TCL/IL by Money__ · · Score: 2

    I couldn't agree more!
    Look at it this way, the TCP/IP spec is "a way to interoperate". That's why it's called: Transmision Control Protocol/Internet Protocol (TCP/IP) instead of Transmision Control Law/Internet Law (TCL/IL). You can provide as many tools as you want to help people make sure they are compliant, but in the end, it has to be in there own interest to comply, and not be forced upon them.
    ___

  19. RFCs are explicitly not standards by Swordfish · · Score: 4
    When I first got started in comms, I asked to see the specifications of the ISO layering standards etc. etc. I was given ``recommendations''. I asked for the _real_ standards. They told me there weren't any. Just ``recommendations''. That sounded a bit weak to me. But I was told that if the ITU (then called CCITT) called them standards, then some countries would refuse to go along. I.e. the idea was that calling them mere ``recommendations'' was part of diplomacy.

    Then later when I started learning the Internet protocols, I wanted to see the ``recommendations''. But all I could find was ``Requests for Comments''. Once again, I asked to see the _real_ recommendations. And once again, it turned out that there were none.

    It seems to me that ``standards'' are just not politically/diplomatically accepted. It's all done by subtle diplomacy. ``Raise a flag and see if anyone salutes it'', as you say in America, or ``fly a kite and see anyone shoots it down'', as we say in Australia.

  20. Re:Especially the open variety? by wendell · · Score: 2

    Hey, lots of Unix weenies like PostScript. :-)

    I think you're a little off-base lumping PostScript in with Word. PostScript is hardly an "opaque format." It's a bona-fide programming language. Anyone is free to write a PostScript interpreter or a program that generates PostScript docs-- the specs for the language are available here.

  21. Consider IEEE 754 (floating point) by pjrc · · Score: 3
    Many years ago I did a bit of reverse engineering to convert a binary data file format, stored from some ancient dos-based software to an ASCII text file format that we could easily manipulate. One of the systems used a few more bits for its floating point mantissa than the other, and it took quite a bit of fiddling to figure it out (without any documentation).

    Nowadays, we have IEEE 754, which says a 32 bit float has 23 bits (plus an implied 1 bit) in the mantissa, 8 in the exponent, and of course the sign bit. Intel, Motorola, Sun, et all followed the standard, which presumably had input from all the major players. The major IC manufacturers caused the compilers and other tools to follow, which generally caused most software to follow the standard, and today the idea of using floats other than IEEE 754 is thought only by developers of very resource limited embedded devices, who typically convert their space-saving floats to the standard when they communicate.

    With the recent M$ kerberos slashdot story/hype, I suspect a lot of slashdot folk will complain about monopolies breaking standards, and probably trademarks, patents, and all the other usual slashdot stuff.... cynical and jaded as many slashdotters may be, there are lots of computer related standards that are well followed.

    • ASCII
    • ATA/ATAPI
    • SCSI
    • IPv4, TCP, UDP, ICMP, IGMP, ARP (internet)
    • IEEE 802.3 (ethernet)
    • PCI
    • JPEG, MPEG, MP3
    • V32, V42, V.90, etc (modem signals)
    • ISO9660

    Why follow standards? Nobody enforces standards, except for customers. Customers generally like it when products interoperate, and if a group of competing products interoperate because they all follow a standard, a new product that doesn't generally won't sell.

    Now there are lots of de-facto standards, where a single company had enough market share that they could just come up with something and everyone else followed. ISA bus (IBM), PDF (Adobe), and .DOC/.XLS format (Microsoft) come to mind, though there are many others.

    Whether a format or de-facto standard, the reason to follow the standard is usually because a product which inter-operates with others has a market advantage over other products that don't. Look at Microsoft Exchange Server and Lotus Domino, which have their own proprietary protocols, but also have to support the standards to be accepted by customers.

    1. Re:Consider IEEE 754 (floating point) by seebs · · Score: 2

      Not so well followed as that:

      SCSI: Dozens of SCSI devices fail to implement the spec correctly, many in fairly surprising or destructive ways. Read a quirks table sometime.

      ATAPI: There are lots of devices labeled "ATAPI" that use proprietary EIDE extensions instead.

      JPEG: Seattle Filmworks (whatever they're called now) has a JPEG format with a corrupted header they use for photos-on-CD.

      ASCII: "Smart quotes" in many web pages (probably around 5-10%?)

      TCP/IP: For years, Cisco and Linux routers corrupted any TCP transmissions using RFC1323. Microsoft boxes frequently ignore MTU's, or set them incorrectly.

      SMTP: Dozens of commercial mailing list systems treat 5xx error codes as "try again immediately", when it really means "this message can never be delivered".

      PCI: Many motherboards, even "good" ones, have one or more slots which don't support bus-mastering cards. Some video vendors abuse bus mastering to get marginally better performance for their cards while shutting other cards out, even when the bus could be idle.

      ISO9660: Rock Ridge, Joliet.

      Modem signals: v.90 came after flex and x2; in many cases, v.90 modems don't interoperate correctly with older hardware, and/or the special servers v.90 modems talk to don't interoperate correctly with older hardware.

      DOC and PDF formats: Neither is sufficiently stable to be considered a "standard" in the same sense as the other things.

      802.3: Almost no one actually uses this by default, although many stacks have it as an option.

      ATA: There are multiple different and incompatible ways of handling large drives. No three OS's agree, so far as I know.

      MP3: Many "MP3" players on the market today play only "encrypted" MP3's. The ID3 tags come in two major and incompatible versions; many software players can't play files that use the new ID3v2 tags, but some software only generates those. Lots of programs can't generate or parse VBR MP3's.

      Let me add a couple of others:

      C: I am not aware of an implementation with no conformance bugs. Almost no one writes correct code, even if we allow for a little bit of local color (like POSIX). Many books "on ANSI C" have painful errors.

      Java: There are several implementations, which have incompatible bugs, even though they're supposed to get everything else right.

      NFS: Some Linux boxes negotiate for NFS v3, but don't actually *support* v3. Lots of differences in handling of locks, when they're supported at all.

      /bin/sh (the POSIX-like shell): Since this is typically "bash" on Linux systems, many shell scripts written on Linux turn out to have syntax errors when compiled with a POSIX shell which isn't bash.

      HTML: Does anyone need to be told how awful HTML conformance is these days?

      In summary, standards are *NOT* enforced. Thank God. While all of the above-mentioned deviations can be painful, in general, *every* one of the things listed is still a usable standard >90% of the time, and we get a little innovation in the process. Fine by me.

      --
      My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
  22. Standards by sanatan · · Score: 2
    I would like to add that education plays a big role. This has to start right when people are in college, they must not only be taught about standards, but also that it is in everyone's interest to maintain and develop reasonable standards.

    Most internet standards today originated from research labs and universities. They were developed by people whose prime aim was to do something well and to create something that would be useful. This should be the underlying spirit when one begins to work on a new standard. Somehow, the fact that these ideas developed in a research environment, where the prime emphasis was on good design, ensured that a good job was done, and also that they were respected by other labs and universities. So they were able to become universal.

    I am not suggesting that companies should not develop their own standards. If they are in the poistion to do so, they certainly should---everyone benefits from a good idea. I do believe however, that in any such effort, the spirit should be the one displayed by researchers. I think it is possible to wed the profit motive to good research.

    Ulitmately, interoperability can only be ensured through trust and people acting in good faith. Remember the Microsoft versus Netscape feud? It was settled only when the two companies, voluntarily decided to do the right thing.

    --Sanatan

  23. Even TCP/IP isn't "standard" or to the spec. by cybrthng · · Score: 2
    Look at BSD, look at Linux, and look and Windows IP Stacks.

    They're all different. Sure the actuall "communication" works, but most people claim BSD IP stack as the standard, and others always speak of the Windows IP stack or how linux is just hacked together (which is the reason many people believe freebsd is better, but that is another story).

    So how could one claim in this "Standards" war of the new millenium that one group is right over another. Sure Mozilla may be standardized, but hell the linux components are changing every 2 seconds. You can't publish fast and publish early and still maintain a standardized system, chaos is NOT standardization my friend.

    Atleast Windows as a product line standardized on the Windows IP stack. A win31 app works on a Windows 2000 stack and that what microsoft has kept. Sure new features have been added, but again, what is considered a standard. Is TCPIP as a whole standardized? Nope. I can't load BSD stack in linux without horkin the internals of the OS and simply just acknowledging tcpip data streams is not standards compliance (as we have all made it aware that microsoft products are not standards compliant because they change or add features).

    So tell me my friend. What does standardized mean? Does it mean a bunch of overly paid fat asses sitting around and deciding our future or does it mean the acceptance by a consumer or product group that is widely used and established and commited? Sounds like the sitting around doesn't do jack, yet the people building a stable product such as the BSD stack or the MSIE browser or the Mozilla Browser or the Posix standards actually get work done.

    So in slashdot world, conformatiy is standardization, and being unique and innovating is illegal and antitrust.

    Isn't this a great time to live?

  24. It depends by vlax · · Score: 2

    In some cases, the standards become, in effect, a government regulation. Standards describing air bags and seat belts for automobiles may start out as voluntary ISO (or in the old days ANSI) standards and end up enacted into legislation or into a regulation.

    In some cases, large purchasers, like governments, require complaince to some standard in order to bid for government contracts. POSIX, for example, is a US government purchasing requirement in some cases. Companies obey the standard because it's cheaper than having one product line for governments and other big contractors and another for everybody else.

    In other cases, like TCP/IP, the standard is self-enforcing. There's no law to stop somebody from writing their own TCP/IP variant, but if it isn't compliant with the standard, it probably won't work on the 'Net.

    This is the kind of thing companies love. Early on, they can try to twist the standard by putting out their own, incompatible variant and then locking their customers into it. Microsoft is famous for this manoevre, and HTML is good example of a standard that ought to be just as self-enforcing as TCP/IP but isn't because of vendor intransigeance.

    What makes standards work is that they tend to be safe choices, not enforced ones. There are a number of standards for the manufacture of, for example, luggage. No law prevents luggage manufacturers from making luggage with dimensions and properties that don't comply with the standard, but then they'll find that their luggage doesn't fit into aircraft luggage bins (which are also described in a standard designed to be compatible with the standards for luggage) and don't fit into standard sized cardboard boxes (which makes them more expensive to ship.) So, the luggage company sticks to the standard, because it's safe.

    Now, standards like ISO 9000 and ISO 14000 aren't manditory in law, but many people require, or at least consider, ISO compliance in purchasing. For those standards, there are national certification bodies that let companies say they are ISO 9000 or 14000 compliant if they can verify that they meet certain conditions. But most standards don't work that way and don't come with certification.

  25. Bob Metcalfe's "third way" by peter303 · · Score: 2

    Dr. Metcalfe (inventor of Ethernet and founder of 3COM) just had an InfoWorld column on this subject. He mentions two poles of the standards process: (1) market aggression by single source, e.g. MicroSoft or IBM and (2) a bureaucratic committee representing a broad number of clients, often attached to a professional society or government agency. Although both of these kinds have had successes, there have also been a lot of failures. Bob's preferred third way is for an organization to develop innovative technology and license it fairly openly- to everybody and inexpensively. AT&T UNIX, Sun NSF are examples.

    (Please don't nitpick my examples, and these companies, which have tried all three kinds of standards.)

  26. Not quite... by rnturn · · Score: 2

    I think you're mistaking the implementation of individual TCP/IP components with the standard itself. I usually think of TCP/IP as communcations protocol which provides a standard means of passing information between computers. There are many implementations of this protocol and that seems to bother you.

    Now about some of the outrageous statements you made:

    ``but most people claim BSD IP stack as the standard, and others always speak of the Windows IP stack or how linux is just hacked together (which is the reason many people believe freebsd is better''

    I'll bet that a lot of those that say the BSD stack is the standard are old BSD bigots. I've recently heard that the Linux TCP/IP implementation was the one that most closely adhered to the actual standard.

    ``Atleast Windows as a product line standardized on the Windows IP stack. A win31 app works on a Windows 2000 stack and that what microsoft has kept.''

    Well, that's certainly a less-than-widely-touted technical achievement. (He says, his voice dripping with sarcasm.) I wonder why I haven't seen a Bill Gates TV commercial explaining why this compatibility is such an important innovation.

    ``Sure new features have been added, but again, what is considered a standard.''

    Does this mean that MS is moving to de-commoditize TCP/IP now?

    ``Is TCPIP as a whole standardized? Nope. I can't load BSD stack in linux without horkin the internals of the OS...''

    I believe that the answer to the first part if the above quotation is: YES. As to the second part: Methinks you need to actually do a little research into what a standards group actually does and, what a standard even is before making a ludicrous comment like this! Using the same logic, I should be able to say that Multinet for VMS (does that even exist any more?) must be an inferior product since I can't load it on an AS/400 without doing some serious hacking of OS/400. You seem to think that something written for one operating system should run on another without change.

    ``What does standardized mean? Does it mean a bunch of overly paid fat asses sitting around and deciding our future or does it mean the acceptance by a consumer or product group that is widely used and established and commited? Sounds like the sitting around doesn't do jack, yet the people building a stable product such as the BSD stack or the MSIE browser or the Mozilla Browser or the Posix standards actually get work done.''

    FYI: There are a number of Microsoft representatives (``fat asses'' as you call 'em) attending standard bodies meetings as well. Microsoft just seems to do whatever the hell they want to do anyway regardless of what gets decided in those meetings. And, BTW, the Posix standards were arrived at by a whole slew of those so-called ``fat asses'' from industry and IEEE. I used to work with another engineer (years ago) who was on the ANSI FORTRAN working group. He was just a regular guy and wasn't overly paid (and I didn't pay much attention to his backside). When you say ``overly paid fat asses sitting around and deciding our future'' are you referring to people like the denizens of the boardrooms in Redmond, WA?

    ``So in slashdot world, conformatiy is standardization...''

    My dictionary contains the following:

    ``standard, n.
    ... 19. conforming in pronunciation, grammar, vocabulary, etc., to the usage that is generally considered to be correct or preferred. 20. fulfilling specific requirements as established by an authority, law, rule, custom, etc.. ...

    A STANDARD is an authoritative principle or rule that usually implies a model or pattern for guidance, by comparison with which the quantity, excellence, correctness, etc. of other things may be determined.''

    So, yes, ``conformatiy'' (sic) is part of following a standard.

    ``... and being unique and innovating is illegal and antitrust.''

    OK. Now we know who your preferred software vendor is.

    (My apologies to Random House for quoting from their dictionary. This seems like `fair use', though.)
    --

    --
    CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
  27. Zen: They aren't by RobertGraham · · Score: 2
    Standards are neither enforced or monitored; they are adopted.

    This concept doesn't go over well in a geek community like /. where people have pathological fear of authority, but the way the real world works is that authority doesn't really exist. The question presumes the existance of an authority capable of monitoring/enforcing standards compliance. Such authority doesn't exist (except in small domains).

    Thus, you are free to implement something like TCP/IP in any way you like. The only problem is that if you want to actually communicate on the Internet, you should probably follow the spec.

    In other words, ultimate you must monitor your own compliance.

    This issue is important because lots of peole try to use standards bodies in order to pursue political agendas. People have the mistaken impression that if an official organization like the ISO puts their stamp of approval on something, then everyone must adopt it. You can look at the failed ISO/OSI protocol suite for an example of where this failed: they created a standard for something that nobody wanted to implement, and thus the standard failed. The authority is powerless to coerce its members to follow its guidelines.

    Another example is the word "hacker" vs. "cracker". Many geeks have the mistaken impression that a dictionary has authoritative powers; it doesn't. Instead, it is a coorperative effort. The dictionary writers attempt to monitor how words are used and understood, then write that information down in a book. When people hear a word they don't understand, they read the book in the hopes of discovering what the speaker meant. Conversely, if somebody is using a word "incorrectly", the dictionary will tell them why people are misunderstanding what the speaker is saying. In other words, the dictionary doesn't tell the speaker that they are wrong; only that their audience understands something different than what they intend to convey. If the speaker doesn't care about being understood, then they can use any meaning they want.

    Coercion to follow standards that people ultimately don't want to follow always leads to failure. For example, trying to coerce the non-technical crowd to adopt the word "cracker" or "wormer" are doomed.

  28. Re:Don't keep them past their sell-by date by mindstrm · · Score: 2

    How is ipv6 supposed to take over though? The original standard worked because many adopted it because they desired connectivity. Until ipv6 and surrounding technology becomes NECESSARY for people to get online.. it won't happen.
    And I fear, even when it does, many will sieze control of it beforehand.

    ie: will the days when *anyone* from *any* network could get a block of IP addresses and register a domain ever be back?

  29. Computing Standards aren't Grown Up Yet by Fnordulicious · · Score: 2
    In the engineering and construction businesses almost every aspect of a structure and its components are designed and built according to `The Code', a term which refers to the set of building and engineering standards relevant to a particular aspect of the profession. There is the National Plumbing Code for instance, which lays down all sorts of rules regarding the type of pipe which can be used for a particular purpose (ABS (the black plastic stuff) can only be used for waste water and vents, copper is allowable for fresh water but not for waste water involving highly acidic substances, etc.), the distance that a pipe can be from an external wall depending on its use, the minimum diameter of a certain weight and type of pipe WRT its distance from the source or sink, etc, etc, etc. Every rule has a real purpose for existing, and disastrous, often life-threatening problems can result if they are ignored. These sorts of rules must be followed by engineers and construction workers or else the city, state, and federally mandated inspectors who review the plans and the finished structure will not pass the work and thus it can't be put into use. No ifs ands or buts (excepting the rare exemption) are allowed.

    The computing industry has no such system of absolute conformance. This is because the government has to get involved to enforce such a thing. Standards for computing have been around a long time relative to the industry's age (check the date for ASCII if you don't believe me), but still there is no way to enforce compliance to a standard. This is mostly because there simply isn't an easy way to classify the products being sold and to determine whether they should be standards compliant or not. The Government would have to be involved, and would have to enact legislation requiring products to be standards compliant before they could be sold to the public, much in the same way that construction is so regulated. Until computers are seen as life-threatening and as life-preserving and as essential to modern human existence as buildings are, this isn't going to happen.

    OTOH, there are perfectly good reasons why the computing industry shouldn't have enforced standards. Innovation in engineering and construction doesn't proceed as rapidly as it does in computing. A standards organization charged with reviewing the state of the art in plumbing can barely keep up with the workload it is presented with; it's absolutely unreasonable to imagine a standards organization reviewing the state of the art in computing. Also, engineering and construction have been around for two thousand years or more -- most of the major concepts have been worked out already and are well known. In computing, which has only been around fifty years or so (at least in its current form), the grounding concepts are still being debated in academia and the reasearch communities. We still aren't totally sure how to describe a programming language -- how can we determine whether a given implementation of a language complies with the standard? Debates still rage about the vagaries of user interfaces, and the underlying concept of a user interface is terribly hard to pin down (Just try thinking about that -- what exactly is a user interface? What makes a user interface good?), so it's absolutely impossible to enforce user interface design. Also, remember that standards don't get updated but about once every five years or so, and any legislation regarding standards usually doesn't change without major political action. Imagine having a standards enforcement representative (read `code police') reading your code. Not a happy idea.

    IMHO there should be some level of enforcement requiring compliance to a standard if such compliance is going to be an integral, advertised part of the product. Thus, if Web Browser v23 claims to comply with HTML 5.0 then it has to abide by every last little requirement of the HTML 5.0 standard. Extensions are always possible, but advertising that Web Browser v23 complies with HTML 5.0 when it actually doesn't can result in legal action by the standards body, possibly causing that product to be pulled from the shelves until it either complies with the standard or is replaced by one that makes no such claim.

    I'd really like to see such a system enforced for the hardware manufacturers. IIRC there's no reason that some random motherboard manufacturer can't claim that their new board has PCI support even if it only implements a broken subset of the actual PCI standard. The existence of this glib attitude towards hardware standards is probably due to the fact that most IA32 machines are still based around the `industry standard' IBM PC design, which being an `industry standard' was never really a formal, enforceable standard. Nowadays nearly all the parts of an IA32-based PC are standardized in one form or another, but even today major manufacturers sell machines with broken implementations and gratuitously incompatible hardware. If they were regulated by a standards requirement of some form then this sort of thing would happen much less often (I won't say it wouldn't happen at all).

    So, computing standards aren't grown up. They haven't reached the stage where they are enforceable by legislated authorities. Someday they probably will be, but only if the end users want such a thing. If the end users don't complain enough the Big Money in corporate hands will keep such a thing from ever happening. The situation is very similar to that of automobiles in the 1970s -- until Ralph Nader and friends started making ugly noise with class-action lawsuits and large, expensive legal cases, the manufacturers blithely ignored their end users, often with horrible results.