Slashdot Mirror
Data Haven To Open For Business - Today
pq writes: "The real world catches up with Neal Stephenson's 'Cryptonomicon' on Monday, June 5th, when a data haven opens on a WWII military fortress six miles off England's coast. Read the (nologin) NYT article here about the strange case of
HavenCo and the independent principality of Sealand: yes, they'll host DeCSS, Metallica songs, even pictures of Natalie, all for a price." (More below.)
And reader JazFresh writes: " ... I went to Monkeybagel.com to find out what was new, and the site owner said he's stopped work on Monkeybagel to work on this new site instead. From the Web page:
'HavenCo will soon be offering the world's most secure managed colocation facility based in the world's smallest sovereign territory, the Principality of Sealand. As the security of sensitive data over public networks grows in importance, businesses, governments and organizations worldwide are realizing the need for a suitable facility from which to host their financial transaction, B2B and e-mail servers as well as sensitive data backups. A large part of a server's physical security is dependent upon the political system of the country in which the server is located. We will be providing the business structure in the world's first free-market location.'"
These were just some of the many submissions about this company. The story of Sealand is almost too bizarre for comprehension; read this April 3rd Sunday Telegraph piece for an eyebrow-wrinkling summary. All I know is, I'd like one of these passports, too, please.
Update: 06/05 13:53 by michael : Thought I'd update this with some pictures and diagrams. Nifty.
http://www.principality-sealand.net/en 00.htm
http://www.fruitsofthes ea.demon.co.uk/sealand/factfile.html
Sealand exists because it was "captured" in 1967, before the UK extended the range of its offshore authority. As a result, a British judge ruled that the UK govt. had no authority on the "island". The previous business deals which have involved the prinicipality (it's a principality due to an odd regulation stating that no one may be convicted of treason for aiding a prince in gaining his land, much like the Hutt River Province in Australia) have been a little shady, and the platform was once attacked by helicoptors sent by a business associate of "Prince" Roy.
Sealand exists in a bizarre position: I don't think the UK considers it independent, but they cannot legally do a damn thing about it.
Hi. I'm Ryan Lackey, CTO of HavenCo.
We're all very busy dealing with actually running
our business, as well as interacting with the
press, but I figured I'd respond to some of the
questions raised here, as I'm a frequent reader
of slashdot (check out my profile)
1) How do we know it's not a hoax?
Well, look at the people involved. Within the
cypherpunks, data networking, and security industries, we're all very well known.
2) Can't you just be destroyed by an Iraqi chemical attack, wayward 747, etc, or have your
links cut?
Defense against denial of service can never be
fully accomplished, but we try very hard. HavenCo
intends to have multiple sites (do you have a
small country which wants free high-speed networking for all your citizens, in trade for
autonomy over a few acres of remote land? Contact
us!) We have up to 5 locations lined up now.
Plus, we can always set up our secure facilities
inside other people's colo sites.
We promise to not allow machines to be *compromised*, as far as confidentiality or
integrity -- if someone tries to tamper with
a service, be it a paid-off staff member, a raiding Church of Scientology commando group, or
whatever, the server's contents will be destroyed.
More info on how this will be done shall be presented at a conference this summer, and in
a white paper, by myself. How to do it is relatively well known in the crypto/tamper-resistance community, but no one
has deployed it yet.
3) Your AUP bans obscenity/etc.?
There has been a bit of internal confusion over
that.
Basically, we are planning to have sites in many
countries. Content illegal in the country in
which we have the server cannot be hosted at
the site.
For instance: Sealand. Kiddie porn is explicitly
banned, but other than that, I don't know if anything is banned. In the UK, all UK-illegal
content will be banned. In the US, same thing.
Which is why we'll be putting facilities in
*many* countries, with diverse laws.
The only things which *we* as HavenCo specifically
ban from our facilities globally are spam, network
attacks, and the like. Many of our founders have
participated in spammer hunts in the past, and
it would be hypocritical for us to offer a safe
haven for spammers.
4) These fake sites...
Principality-sealand.net and telebase.es/sealand
are run by criminals who attempted to take Sealand
by force
5) Aren't you just being paranoid?
Um, we're not *just* being paranoid, but by being
overly paranoid ourselves, our customers can
relax. Seems like a fair trade.
As a separate nation, Sealand is in a good position to qualify for its own top level domain in the same way that many other nations, both small and large, have. The owner of Sealand should contact Network Solutions and then he would have no more problems about forged sites, since his government could control a '.se' national domain or something similar if that has already gone.
The fact that the US does not recognise Sealand shouldn't be a problem, after all I believe Cuba and Taiwan have their own domains...
For all those doubters out there, Sealand does exist - stories about it have been in the UK press for ages. I personally would not trust my data, website or anything else to anything out there though, since it seems a lot of shady and dubious dealings go around in its name, not to mention your data may not be very secure with the threat of coup d'etat, kidnappings, invasion etc.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
At least you'll be assured your data is gaurded, I suppose
---
---
You are not what you own -- Fugazi, "Merchandise"
(FWIW, I'm CTO of HavenCo, and responsible for the buildout of the datacenter on Sealand)
We actually have all the equipment needed to get
operational *onsite* right now.
Please remember that Sealand has been occupied
continuously since 24 December, 1966 by the
Royal Family, and they've done quite a bit of
work over the years to make sure the place is
quite suitable.
Operational IP to Sealand exists, but we're not
publishing until we get the second link up. We
will be using a network of caches to maximize
throughput.
We can always use more money, both in investment
and customer revenues, but that's primarily to
increase capacity to serve more customers.
You mentioned the oil industry -- sure, to do things the official way through the offshore oil
industry would cost >$50m if you were starting with an abandoned platform. However, if you're
using a facility almost purpose-built for
secure coloation, with a great deal of infrastructure already in place, which has been
maintained by dedicated professionals for years,
it's a lot cheaper. Plus, we're using commodity
equipment, open source software, and vendor
partnerships to lower the cost on the Internet/server side.
You don't need to trust us; you can just wait
a week or two and see for yourself.
At that point, they become invincible.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
The native inhabitants of Sealand are the Seamen.
They have very peculiar demographics and an even stranger culture. Their population reproduces very quickly, but this is to balance out the devastating effects of their cultural tradition. You see, once every few weeks the many of the Seamen go swimming across the Fallopian Channel in a massive exodus, lured by native myths about making it to a "promised land." Only one of the Seamen ever makes it across the Fallopian Channel alive, and the rest all drown.
The Seamen reproduce quickly, and this cycle of death continues again.
Is Sealand recognized by the United States? If a nation is not recognized as independent by other nations, it can't do much good.
Additionally, how do we know other nations cannot interfere with Sealand? Even a tiny nation like Iraq could take over the island with a few gunboats and some chemical gases.
Furthermore, Sealand, although independent, is still at the mercy of external controls. The fiber lines can be cut, network traffic can be intercepted, etc...
And what about political pressure? Say the US government doesn't like it. It can pressure Sealand to enact controls by threatening to block US business access to the haven ( a significant portion of their market ) by passing a law (which would be quite constitutional, I think)
Maintaining the physical security of the Sealand fortress and HavenCo facility is of utmost importance to our success. Our business, personal reputations and financial bottom line, and that of all our customers, could be compromised in the event that a careless or malicious entity were to ship equipment to us that was altered to include a bomb or eavesdropping device. We don't like these precautions any more than you do, but this is the reality that we face in an increasily hostile world.
Although I agree thay phsical security as well as systems integrity is paramount in todays electronic environment. Taking measures this stiff is along the lines of James Bond films. These folks won't even let you bring in your own hardware. So is it a true COLO? From perusing the related HavenCo pages it appears that along with secure services, they also have quite a lockdown on content provided as well as a strong hold on how the hosted sites are run. I could see needing a facility like this to house some business critical warehousing, but that would be about it. I think the leasing arrangements and the spylike security will also come with a huge pricetag. If you spend all thismoney and house your site there, you still can't see or visit the facilities. Seems a bit paranoid to me.
The Principality of Sealand was destroyed today in a tragic special effects accident. During the filming of Das Boobs, a German remake of the shortlived Operation Petticoat series, several torpedos intended for a fake cardboard convoy missed their target. The torpedos ran up on a beach and deconstructed all infrastructure in the tiny principality
A spokes person from the MPAA said oops!
134340: I am not a number. I am a free planet!
o The Principality of Sealand's actual web site is www.sealandgov.com. Any other site which claims to be the web site for the government of Sealand is making a false claim. The web site at www.fruitsofthesea.demon.co.uk was the official site until the recent HavenCo launch, at which point we moved the official site for the government of Sealand to www.sealandgov.com
o Prince Roy is an upstanding individual and has not been involved in the shady schemes using the name of Sealand. A number of shady individuals have been forging Sealand passports and selling them. Recently a number of these shady individuals, who had been acting without the consent of the government of Sealand, have been arrested in Spain for falsifying documents. Sealand does not sell passports.
o Our AUP isn't very clear. =( The AUP states that content illegal in the jurisdiction of the "server" is prohibited. Our AUP was written with the future plan of building datacenters in multiple jurisdictions in mind. If you, as a HavenCo customer, host your content at the HavenCo sealand datacenter, the only content regulation which applies to your content as it relates to our AUP is the Sealand prohibition on child pornography. Sealand has no regulations prohibiting any content other than child pornography.
Thank you. I hope that clears up the questions raised here. We are all very busy dealing with the press barrage, so I apologize if there are questions that remain unanswered.
--
Sameer Parekh
Chairman
Havenco, Ltd.
This may be a great idea and all, but since it's not really a part of any other country, what's to stop someone from blowing the place up... no fear of retalliation... sure it may not be the 'right' thing to do, but since when do governments care about that?
-- Dr. Eldarion --
...that the NYT article may have it right that the "paper trail", and interaction with the world's finacial markets would make it difficult for criminals to get away with crime more easily by using this service.
However, it's the ultimate protection against lawsuits against the ISP for hosting supposedly offensive materials. Individuals will not suddenly be free of liability for their actions. They'll still be subject to the laws where they reside. BUT, they won't have to worry about some spineless ISP dropping their content without notice simply because they got a threatening letter from a corporate lawyer.
This seems to be particularly appropriate just off the coast of Great Britain...
- StaticLimit
The way to free information is not run beyond the reaches of law, but to distribute it so that for each site that closes, another two spring up
A quick question, the law may not be able to touch them, but they can cut the connection to the rest of the world can they not?
HavenCo is donating free colocation space to Non-Governmental Organizations of our choosing. In general, the types of organizations that we will want to provide hosting for are those that promote
Among other groups, Freenet have expressed interest in getting a large Freenet node hosted there (of course, that's very preliminary, and was just posted to freenet-chat a couple hours ago). Between Freenet and HavenCo, this is an exciting time for free speech and the Internet.
The article suggests that a secure data haven could be used to keep goods outside the jurisdiction of one's country, thus preventing e-mails or other information from being subpoenaed. I have to wonder how much security this really offers. Others have brought up the prospect of nations declaring war on Sealand (or simply cutting them off, telecom-wise), but wouldn't it be simpler for them to declare war on the owner of the data? There's already the British law requiring computer owners to turn over decryption passwords on request; how far is this from making it a crime not to turn over all one's data, regardless of physical location?
A properly secured data haven could obscure how much and what one had there, but it seems it would be almost impossible to completely hide the list of clients and at least the extent of their holdings -- especially if they charge by the Mb.
- Michael Cohn
-----
Go ahead, blame me... I voted for Nader!
Well, there you have it. They are going to host web sites that intentionaly piss off France, and only France.:-) The Brits will conveniently find some excuse to extend their defenses to the Sealanders who have ancestral links back to the old homeland. But there is still the Germans to consider as one of Zeldman's Failed Ads attests to.
It isn't "their" diplomacy site at all -- you are quoting from a scam. Read this
They can make up (or change) laws. Any goverment can. But you seem to assume they have no laws allready.
According to some random web site google spat up they follow British Common Law and British Law of Contract. Which I beleve would make the GPL as valid there as in the UK.
Of corse they could change their minds, but so could any country. Even a democratic one. Ask anyone whose assets were frozen by the US goverment. Or whose bisness was nationalised in South America. You just have to ask yourself, do you trust Prince Roy?
Running a data center in an abandoned fortress in the North Sea is going to be a difficult, expensive proposition. It's worse than a shipboard operation; you can bring a ship into port for overhaul. Just getting high reliability marine-grade power and air conditioning equipment onto their island will be a job. And the WWII-era concrete probably needs major work by now. Loading and unloading big stuff from small boats is a bitch. Keeping good people onsite for repairs will be very tough, so they'll probably need a helipad and some helicopters to get workers on and off. That's another construction job and a big operating cost.
It's not impossible. If you're in a position to write a check with eight figures to Bechtel or Fluor, who build oil platforms, no problem. They're trying to raise $3 million, and that's nowhere near enough.
For one of those great IBM Linux on System/390 setups. You have a situation where you want a combination of:
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
As has been said elsewhere, it's really only the Brits who can militarily challenge Sealand. All others would be violating the UK's territorial waters, and no matter how they feel about Sealand, the Brits probably couldn't afford to let such encroachment go through...
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
Kinakuta was internationally recognized "de jure"
Kinakuta had its own domain "kk"
Kinakuta was rather wealthy to begin with, and did not need to raise capital.
Bruce Sterling's Islands in the Net is a more pertinent "data haven" reference.
The difference between theory and practice is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
Check out Labuan - it's a duty-free, offshore banking haven with great Internet connections (Fibre, Satellite, etc). Many companies around the world are planning to set up their data havens/off shore tax-free e-commerce systems/etc here.
:)
Not a place to store p0rn/warez/etc but if you want that, stick to loony land like Sealand. Labuan is for serious operations
I left my body to science, but I'm afraid they've turned it down...
Are you trying to say that there are not enough businesses in the entire world outside of the U.S. to keep a 'nation' about the size of a sports stadium in business?
Something like 90% of the world's Internet traffic goes though USA backbone sites. To get from Poland to France (on the net), you go though a USA site. The percentage of SSL traffic (the "important" stuff) is even higher. Even offshore business accounts often host on USA soil, because that's where the network is.
So, while the USA certainly doesn't have any magic control over the world economy, you cannot dispute the fact that most of the network traffic this thread is interested in goes through sites owned and operated by USA companies.
Now, consider that Sealand is a data haven. Without network connectivity, they are about as useful as a jet fighter without fuel. If the entire USA collectively decides to cut off Sealand, then they've lost most of the market they care about.
Is that going to happen any time soon? No. Too many laws against it, and too much popular opinion behind the laws. It would take a radical change in our culture and political climate. By the time the needed changes could be put into effect, the backbone situation will likely have changed.
dragonhawk@iname.microsoft.com
I do not like Microsoft. Remove them from my email address.