Will Debian Remove 'Non-Free'?

An anonymous reader writes "A Debian General Resolution for removing the non-free section from Debian archives is being discussed by Debian Folks and the debate is turning into a flamefest. The proposal is aimed to clarify the position of Debian toward Free Software and the fact that non-free is not (and has never been) a part of the Debian System. But this would exclude packages such as Netscape, the JDK or pine of the Debian archives and opponents argue that the proposal breaks the section 5 of the Debian Social Contract. Here's where it started." Since I'm not a Debian Maintainer (hey, but a few of my old apps are in there, can I vote? ;) I've only got an opinion. I think Debian users should be able to install things like Netscape and Pine too, but I think they should be told the implications. The reality tho, is that if it gets yanked from non-free, other servers will pick it up. Maybe that is the hint that the non-free section is different from Debian's goal. Some people use Debian because it's better, not because it's the most free.

Comments

Clarification

[Biff Cool]

By removing non-free they are not disallowing Netscape, JDK, or anything else in non-free to be packaged as .debs they are just trying to remove it from the Official Debian Archives, they also claim that they are still willing to support users of non-free software they just don't want to be distributing it themselves anymore.

Conscience is the inner voice which warns us that someone may be looking.

Makes sense to me

[FascDot Killed My Pr]

Debian is a non-profit trying to promote free software. They are only providing non-free software as a convenience. They should stop providing if at least one of two conditions are met:

1) The user's need reduces. For instance, as free packages replace non-free ones (Mozilla for Netscape, let's say). If the user wants the non-free alternative, let them get it themselves.

2) If the task of providing becomes too onerous. For instance, disk space. There must be GIGABYTES of non-free Linux software out there, even if you only count the items that have debian packages.

Remember, Debian IS running a charity here. Why should a charity promote (in the money-making sense) other people's software?
--
Wanna hook MAPI clients to your Tru64/AIX/Linux server?

Non/Free and Debian

[chandler]

Of course removing non-free from Debian is a goal. What's the point of the Free Software revolution otherwise? The good thing about Debian is that it's not just an Open Source distro, it also works on behalf of Free Software. Eventually, we will replace non-free software on all systems with free software, right?

• For netscape there's Mozilla
• For pine, well, use another email client.
• For JDK, there's kaffe (it's coming along nicely)
• For Motif, there's Lesstif

One of the things that seperates Debian from the other distros is that it's dedicated to having Open Source software, unlike commercial distros which have no fear of packaging non-free software.

Debian, the Res Publica of Free Software.

[Jacques Chester]

Hello all;

Yesterday I got moderator privelages: today I have moderated. Now I will revoke that moderation in order to post.

Debian is something of a bedrock amongst the free software and opensource camps. It is the most consciously, self-aware and organised project of its kind, anywhere. It exists solely for what it perceives as the greater good. Money is not the aim - the aim is to uphold principles.

Much like the roman Res Publica of old, the Debian project enjoys a sophisticated governmental structure. In a sense, Debian is the wise old head of distributions, moving at a stately pace across both technological and ideological landscapes. It brings a strength and enduring quality that other projects could well lack. Quite simply, Debian will not die because of commercial whim nor lack of interest.

I think that we, the wider programming and user community, should look on this tolerantly. For Debian, this proposal is quite radical: an amendment to the Social Contract on which stands all of the actions. This is like a US statesman proposing an amendment to the Bill of Rights in nature, a fundamental reform or change to a very important document.

But, ultimately, Debian will decide. I do not think it is our place to judge them, whichever way they may turn. The fact is that Debian examplifies a non-anarchic model in a community where benevolent dictatorial anarchy (if you can use such a term!) is revered. It has long been run by wiser hackers than the most of us, and will be run by wiser hackers long after the frothing mob of Slashdot has passed.

Consider also the outcomes.

1. Debian Rejects the Resolution. What signal does this send to the Free Software movement? What signal does this send to the Open Source movement? What signal does it send to commercial distros? What signal does it send to people who don't care about Debian's agenda?

   Debian will probably come under a lot of fire if it choses this path, by some fire-branding types in the same mould as the person proposing the Resolution. It would hurt the "image" of Debian as the most free of the free. On the other hand, I do not believe that Debian, taken as a whole, would care what people think of it. Nor will pragmatists who admire Debian for its technical excellence.

   Internally it will cause continuing friction between camps. Certainly, a rejection at this stage would make later proposals even more bitterly contested ("We've rejected this already!"). In the most extreme circumstance, the pro-camp may fork Debian. I do not expect this to happen, however.

2. Debian Accepts the Resolution. Again, what signal does this send? It's less ambiguous, IMO. If Debian says "yes", they are reaffirming and strengthening their pro-freedom stance. This Proposal is more ideological in nature than pragmatic: the rationale given discounts pragmatic arguments and forwards largely ideological reasons for the amendment.

   Debian will come under some fire for this path, but not so much. The pragmatists in the hacker world seem to be less voiciferous than the ideologists. Linus will rise above it all in his usual zen-like serenity.

   Internally, I expect pressures will be less intense than the "no" option. It is far harder to undo such a thing than it is to do it, hence the pressure to undo will be less than the pressure would have been to do. And, obviously, the matter won't come up again in that "to do" form.

Whatever happens, I'll be watching with interest. For while this is a Debian matter, Debian is one of the strongest corps of the Freedomware community. What happens to them will have spill-over consequences for others.

be well;

JC.

--
"Don't declare a revolution unless you are prepared to be guillotined." - Anon.